
Traveller-digest        Monday, April 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 400



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Offical Price Guide to RPGs
Re: Traveller Auctions!
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: The Black Curtain
Re: The Black Curtain
Re: Drop Tanks was Garbage
Re: Titan Games Preview for (4/4/99)
T4 Gunsmith v0.10
Re: Garbage
T5 Jump Masking
Re: Garbage
T5
X-boat data/cargo
Re: Aurora  (was max accel)
Re: Languages in Traveller
Re: SPOF-yu-lam
OT Re: Titan Games Preview for (4/4/99)
MedShip or MedStation concepts...
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Far Trader Economics (long)
RE: Moons
re: COACC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:14:06 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: Offical Price Guide to RPGs

- -----Original Message-----
- ------------------------------

>Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:34:57 EDT
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mayday Versions 

>In a message dated 4/4/99 10:17:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>thorinn@mediaone.net writes:

><< The Official Price Guide to Role-Playing Games by Timothy Brown and Tony 
>Lee >>

>Where do you find this?

- ------------------------------
It just came out in December 1998 and I bought my copy at MediaPlay.
Most large bookstores should probly be carrying it. 
It is a large sized paperpack, 480 pages , ISBN 0-676-60144-8 and is
published by House of Collectables part of Ballantine Publishing which is
a division of Random House. They are the same publishers that put out
dozens of price guides for all sorts of collectables. 

It lacks the more detailed descriptions found in Heroic Worlds, but does
cover items up through sometime in 1998. The prices listed do not seem
to be too consistent based on my auction experience in the rpg.marketplace
newsgroup. It lists at $17.

Thorinn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 00:23:11 -0400
From: "Mike Basinger" <dbasinge@cviog.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Auctions!

Thanks for the info David. I also saw JTAS #2 and #4 for sale, but rich
for my blood.

Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger  Computer Support Specialist IV
Carl Vinson Institute of Government - University of Georgia
dbasinge@cviog.uga.edu
http://xboat.cviog.uga.edu/~dbasinge

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:13:16 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

While we're on this topic, is now a good time to ask why the Gazelle 
is allowed 4 turrets under High Guard?

"Huh? Oh, yeah, 16 turrets is a little unusual for a 400-ton ship. 
See, we're plumbed for 1200 tons worth of drop tanks. Hardly ever use 
'em, though - slow us down too much."

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:02:28 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: The Black Curtain

I hate to ask, but after a fruitless web search, I just gotta...

What is the Empress Wave?

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:57:44 -0700
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: The Black Curtain

"Thad K. Sneed" wrote:
> 
> I hate to ask, but after a fruitless web search, I just gotta...
> 
> What is the Empress Wave?

I don't think it was ever fully developed by GDW before they went 
out of business.  As far as I recall, it was discovered by Project
Longbow and was moving outward from the galactic core.  It apparently
had entered Zhodani space and was destroying the psi abilities of
the Zho nobles.  There may be some write ups of it in TNE materials,
maybe magazines.  Anyway, the "Chick in Black" (the woman dressed in
the wicked witch outfit on the cover of TNE) figured into this 
somehow as part of an Emperor's (Strephon's ???) dreams.  IMHO, I'm
glad this story line wasn't developed further.

Kristian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:53:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks was Garbage

Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:32:24 -0500, "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>I've always assumed that the drops the tanks part was apocryphacal, since it
>never appeared in any other OTU source.  I haven't used drop tanks in any
>game I've played or GM'd in years. But...when we did use them we only used
>them to extend the range of the ships between fuelling.
>Do it like so. Figure out the total displacement of the ship and drop tanks
>and use that to calculate the maximum jump. The ship jumps with the drop
>tanks.  After the jump the drop tanks are empty. Drop them. You now have a
>lower displacement ship with the same Jump Engines. If the tanks are big
>enough the displacement difference might give greater range on the next
>Jump, if not you still have the advantage of being able to more quickly jump
>again without having to refuel.  Also good for areas where the distance
>between systems are greater than 2 or 3 parsecs.

These have been mentioned.  The list calls them demountable tanks
(is there a canonical source?  The Traveller adventure mentiones
internal tanks).  I don't think anyone disagree with these.

(So, you are right :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 23:34:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (4/4/99)

    Web Site location: http://www.titangames.com/

>Game Designer's Workshop:
>    (Traveller)
>        Alien Module 3 - Vargr (257) [$30, F]
>        Double Adv. 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows (312) [$12, VF]
>        Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$13, NM]
>        Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (331) [$11, VF]
>    (Traveller: The New Era)
>        Traveller: The New Era Deluxe Boxed Set (302) [$22, Box NM-Contents M]
>        World Tamer's Handbook (311) [$15.5, VF]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:18:34 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: T4 Gunsmith v0.10

As part of my course work for my degree I have to do a spreadsheet project.
Now my choice was the FFS2 CPR small arm design sequences. Now I have
the first version working reasonably well and if anybody would like a copy
just send me an email (its excel 5.0). Since this is going to be a marked
project any feedback would be greatly appreciated (see I do have an ulterior
motive in this).



Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:04:37 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Garbage

>>The whole damn setting is completely unbelievable if you really think about
>>it.
>>It's almost impossible that a society that far in the future, constructed of
>>multiple alien and human races with supposedly advanced technology ,would be
>>remotely recognizable to a twentieth century human. Think about dropping an
>>Australian Aboriginal tribesman from the 17th C  in the middle of New York
>>
>>But it being unbelievable doesn''t make it any less fun to play in.
>
>It is not "completely" unbelievable.  There is a rule that,
>in fiction, you get a suspension of disbelief where the
>audience will accept something that is not possible as
>possible to set up the premise of the story or settings.

Yeah, I know about that. The point though is that it really _is_ completely
unbelievable.   If you don't think about it and suspend your disbelief, fine.
But nothing in Traveller stands up to any serious scrutiny, so worrying about
minor details like the fact that drop tanks aren't as common as you happpen to
think they should  be, seems a bit frivolous.

Though I admit  if we didn't have these debates there wouldn't be much point
in the TML
<grin>

>However, you get to do this once, and in a limited manner.
>If you keep doing it, you damage suspension of disbelief
>and the whole thing become "hokey".  In your example, the
>audience would accept that dropping an Australian Aberiginal
>from the past in NY because it is an interesting situation.
>However, if in the middle of the story it you arbitrarily told
>them, "this also means he can turn invisible" you would damage
>the suspension of disbelief.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant with the Aborigine. I was
implying that expecting the Aborgine to understand modern NY is the equivalent
of expecting 20thC  westerners to understand the Imperium ( assuming it
actually existed ) .

>>Why not let people use all that energy for weapons ?>Gives them one or two
>>really big shots and then they're sitting ducks, unable
>>to jump out of system.
>
>I've argued this position in the past, I can not tell Hans that
>I admit that I was wrong :-).  The problem is that; having
>the choice can be a big deal, you can get a _lot_ of "sort
>of big shots, and big ships would use this in addition to
>having jump tankage.

Not if they wanted to jump they wouldn't !

I suspect it's more practical, and probably cheaper, to put a better weapon
and a bigger power plant in than adding large amounts of unneccesary fuel
tankage and relying on over-driven equipment.

>>Now, the normal explantion for these things not being around (or still being
>>around) , is "Vilani conservatism". Apply that to your problem above, and it
>>is solved.  IF Vilani conservatism is enough to repress or limit development
>>over millenia whole technologies, it's not surprising that the drop-tank
isn't
>>spreading like wildfire.
>
>This never worked for me.  That arguement might apply to whole
>TL progression, but if you want to stop one technology it doesn't
>help.  Besinde, the Imperium brings in to many things (like
>black globes) and researches too many things to be that conservative.

There's a difference between what is found at Ancient's sites (Black Globes),
what is researched ( Signal GK) , what is used by the Navy ( Gazelle's), and
what is used regularly by commercial operators.

IRL, we've had "spaceships" for almost forty years now, and there's still only
a handful of commercial operators, and except for the avionics commercial
airliners are still largely using technology that is older than that. Although
drop-tanks exist IRL and have done since the end of WWII, still only the
military uses them.

Maybe drop-tanks really aren't economicallly feasible for commercial use in
the Imperium.
I haven't run the numbers, but in most Traveller incarnations traders are only
just viable anyway, and the additional expense of paying for drop tanks and
the associated couplings each time may not be justifiable.

 The only thing the drop tanks gain you really is the ability for a ship to
jump further with the same cargo
Yes, if there were no other Jump 4 traders available, the Jump 4 ship may be
able to charge a premium on priority goods, but that's unlikley.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 05:43:42 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: T5 Jump Masking

<snipped from the T5 Jump description:>
>If a plotted course intersects a 100 diameter sphere around any
>object larger than the ship, the ship is "precipitated out" of jump space.

Am I correct in my interpretation that a ship which is precipitated out of
Jump does _not_ roll on the Misexit column (on the Jump Mishap Table)?


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:38:16 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Garbage

In a message dated 4/5/99 5:48:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
frankie@mundens.gen.nz writes:

<< 
 I think you may have misunderstood what I meant with the Aborigine. I was
 implying that expecting the Aborgine to understand modern NY is the 
equivalent
 of expecting 20thC  westerners to understand the Imperium ( assuming it
 actually existed ) . >>

	Perhaps the Aborigine to NY comparison is the wrong metaphor for 
modern to Imperial times.   Maybe putting a 1st century Roman or 5th century 
BC Greek in modern NY would be better.   Once he got past a few of the gizmos 
and the absence of slaves, the urban life would seem very recognizeable,  the 
shock would be great at first, but  he would recognize an awful lot (heck a 
Roman would be able to read a few things here and there).

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:40:21 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: T5

	Just envious, but since a few of you seem to have seen some T5 stuff, 
I'm curous just how much of T5 is ready and what some of the big changes are?

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 05:42:03 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: X-boat data/cargo

Would an X-boat carry military as well as civilan data? So common "mail" 
would be mixed with military reports?

Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:44:19 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

On Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:03:18 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:
>
>Aerospike nozzle.
>
>-- 


aka external burning ramjets

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:47:37 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Languages in Traveller

Lieutenant!!  Arm the nape canisters!!!

8^)

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:10:43 EST Tascelt@aol.com writes:
>And it also helps to have a translator that speaks Bochie, and 
>understands 
>the language of binary vaporators.  <I had to say it, flame away if 
>you must.>
>
>TAS

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:08:00 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SPOF-yu-lam

On Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:49:18 -0400 Glenn Grant <neo@total.net> writes:
>Darroch's reply:
>
>> Sorry.  I had to borrow it to use as an exhibit.  I'm trying to use
>>it to prove the existence of psionics so I can get my client off on 
>a
>>defense of pre-emptive self-defense.
>
>Lord help us all.
>
>Best,
>
> + GMG +


zzzztzttzzztzttzzttz <fry>

Darn, I'm gonna have to start wrapping my system in plastic!

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:06:48 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: OT Re: Titan Games Preview for (4/4/99)

How do I get someone to publish updates about the Subsidized Merchant
like this? ;-)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
: >Game Designer's Workshop:
: >    (Traveller)
: >        Alien Module 3 - Vargr (257) [$30, F]
: >        Double Adv. 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows (312) [$12, VF]
: >        Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$13, NM]
: >        Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (331)
[$11, VF]
: >    (Traveller: The New Era)
: >        Traveller: The New Era Deluxe Boxed Set (302) [$22, Box
NM-Contents M]
: >        World Tamer's Handbook (311) [$15.5, VF]


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:21:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: MedShip or MedStation concepts...

Greetings, Friends,

I had a curious thought several weeks ago, and am looking to develop 
it into an actual adventuring concept for my upcoming campaign.  With 
the short-lived sci-fi series "Mercy Point" (I at least think it's 
short-lived, anyway, since I haven't seen it advertised in quite some 
time) and novels like "Hospital Station", etc, it would seem to me 
that a well-built TU should have its own versions of the Mayo Clinic 
in Space.

How do you handle the concept of Medical ships as moving hospitals, 
or Medical space stations as a point for special medical treatments?

I was considering using one as the focal point for an adventure in my 
First Contact campaign, and was looking for educated opinions on the 
form and location a Medical Space Station might take in that milieu.

Andrew, has this concept already been addressed in your ME21 
discussions?  Rob Eaglestone, what about your ME21 work?

Thanks for your time and patience.  I now return you to your 
regularly scheduled Drop Tank thread, already in progress...

Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 15:48:20 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

>>   3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>>   6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr >>

>Why would 'hi' and 'middle' passage rates be the same?

Oops. I made a typo here. It should have been 3500Cr for high passage. But the
total was correct.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:51:19 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics (long)

The short story is that the a Beowulf Free trader on average, theoretically of
course, will generate an Annual Profit of 808,513 Cr.

Finally, free trading is profitable, on the theoretical average anyway.

Details below.


John Buston wrote:

> I have just received my copy of Far Trader.  It looks very comprehensive, and
> covers trade in as much detail as you could want, with lots of good ideas.
>
> I have been trying to make the Far Trader economics work for a Beowulf Free
> Trader, but cannot get the figures to come out anywhere near a profit.
>
> I tried to work out the income & expenditure for a single jump, with 100% load,
> and came up with:
>
> Income per jump:
>
>   3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>   6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>   20 Low Passengers:   20*175   =  3.5 KCr
>   63.5 DT of Freight:  63.5*700 = 44.5 KCr

You're only using the 'Average Price' which is just one factor in calculating the
Current Freight Price.

Current Price = Average Price + (Price Volatility x 4d6-14).

Price Volatility is a variable that the referee can set to reflect economic changes
(see GT:FT p.36 sidebar on Price Series).  Its suggested to be 0.025*Average Price
unless the referee wants to model long term economic factors.

So, the equation for the purchase price of the freight is:
Pc = 700 + ((0.025*700) + 4d6-14)
This yields a range of
700 + 17.5*(-10) = 525 Cr
to
700 + 17.5*(10) = 875 Cr

Then, you must make a successful Merchant roll, with various modifiers,
to successfully bid for particular cargoes.  The success of that roll determines
the final price for the freight, a range of 50% to 150%.

In this case, the ultimate range of frieght prices would be
263Cr to 1313 Cr per ton.  An average of these values gives: 50,038 Cr.

The same process is used for Passenger rates.
Current Price for High Passage =
3500 + (Price Volatility * (4d6-14))
Pv in this case is 0.02*Average Price suggested
Pc = 3500 + (70*(-10)) =  2800 Cr
Pc = 3500 = (70*(10)) = 4200 Cr

1400 Cr to 6300 Cr in ultimate range; 3850 Average
3850 Cr Average * 3 = 11550 Cr

For Medium Passage:
Pc = 1750 + (35 * (-10)) = 1400
Pc = 1750 + (35 * (10)) = 2100
700 Cr to 3150 Cr; average value 1925 Cr
1925 Cr * 6 = 11550 Cr

For Low Passage:
Pc = 175 + (3.5 * (-10)) = 140 Cr
Pc = 175 + (3.5 * (10)) = 210 Cr
70 Cr to 315 Cr; 193 Average


So a max value load will be:
Cargo: 1313 Cr * 63.5 Tons = 83,775.5 Cr
High Passage:  6300 Cr * 3 = 18,900 Cr
Medium Passage: 3150 Cr * 6 = 18,900 Cr
Low Passage: 315 Cr * 20 = 6300 Cr
Total: 127,875.5 Cr

A least value load would be:
Cargo: 16700.5 Cr
High Passage: 4,200 Cr
Medium Passage: 4,200 Cr
Low Passage: 1,400 Cr
Total: 26,500.5 Cr

The median of that range is 77,188 Cr per jump.
Assuming 24 trips per year: 1,852,512 Cr

Several things will increase your chances of greater profits, primarily Merchant
skill, but also taking Special Handling Cargoes and searching for freight for
which there is no direct route to the destination.


> Expenditure per jump:
>
>   Mortgage = 58 KCr

You pay this per month and not per jump.

>   Salaries =  5 KCr

Also a per month expenditure.

>
>   Fuel     =  2 KCr

Cheapest rate is 350 Cr/ton, 7,000 Cr.

>
>   Maintenance
>    contribution = 1 KCr

Also per month.

>   Berthing = 20 KCr

This is 20Cr * Hull size, for the first 6 days, or 4,000 Cr.

>   Sundries = 1 KCr

>
> Assumptions:
>   24 jumps year.
>   Unarmed.
>   Mortgage = 240th ships cost per month.
>   12.5 DT of cargo space taken up by passengers and crew baggage.
>
> So   Income per Jump = 69 KCr
> Expenditure per Jump = 87 KCr

Changing to an annual rate to deal with per jump and per month costs:

Income per year: 1,852,512 Cr
Expenditures:
Mortgage: 58,000 Cr * 12 = 696,000 Cr
Salaries: 5k * 12 = 60,000 Cr
Fuel: 7,000 Cr * 24 = 168,000 Cr
Maintenance setaside: 1,000 Cr * 12 = 12,000 Cr
Berthing: 4,000 Cr * 24 = 96,000 Cr
Sundries: 1,000 Cr * 12 = 12,000 Cr
Total Expenditures = 1,044,000 Cr

Income Per Year: 1,852,513 Cr
Expenditures Per Year: 1,044,000 Cr
Annual Profit: 808,513 Cr


> This makes a loss of 20% per jump, and doesn't become profitable until you do 35
> jumps a year, which is impractical.
>
> What am I missing?

I think the most significant error was paying the mortgage and other fees per jump
instead of per month.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:42:11 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Moons

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Well, there are a lot of bodies in the solar system, and 
only Earth/Luna and Pluto/Charon are "large" and "double". 
And frankly, Pluto is small enough to be more like an 
asteroid. Asteroids seem to occur in doubles moderately 
often."

	The number of bodies in our system is immaterial,
	unless you have some reason to believe that other
	systems have much fewer bodies. The fact remains 
	that the only data available to us suggests that
	(if earth-Luna are considered the only true doubles
	in the Sol system) about 2 in 10 planets might be 
	tied up in 'doubles'. Of course, we have no more
	reason to suppose that our system is typical in 
	this regard than we do to suppose that our system
	developed in a typical fashion.

"But we are fairly certain how Luna was formed, and it 
requires a *really* unlikely event. Basicly a *big* 
planetismal doing the right sort of "grazing" impact 
during the last stages of the formation of the solar 
system."

	This sort of event certainly sounds pretty
	unlikely to me, and I do agree that doubles are 
	probably rare. However, as I pointed out above,
	our system is not necessarily typical in any 
	particular respect, and perhaps such events are
	more common than we think, or doubles can be 
	formed in another way. We are working from a
	sample size of 1 system, so we have little idea 
	of how variable systems might be.

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:43:10 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: COACC

At 03:08 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>package anyway. We're running out of differences here.
>>
>
>Not hardly.  Senors, and motive power will vary greatly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I'll ignore you for sensors right now, because you're stuck on TL8

And you are stuck we the assumption that there will be improvements.  That
may not be the case.

>design restrictions. Do you have a TL15 motive power that's better than
>thruster plates and fusion-powered gravitics? That's what the space fighter 
>will be using.
>

Define 'better' exactly.  Better power to weight ratio seems to be your
criteria.  It may not be mine.  I'd trade alot for near invisibility.

>Charles again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>As CT Striker says, aircraft stop existing as a truly viable seperate 
>>combat design once gravitics tech matures - they become space-capable 
>>gunboats, or you don't bother with them.
>>
>
>That is a poor tactical and stratigic assumption.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Perhaps. It may also mean that aircraft are to TL15 battlefields as
>horse cavalry are to TL8 battlefields...you can field them, but they
>won't do you much good, even if you give them M-16's.
>
>Walt Smith
>

That depends on your assumptions.  You MAY be right but you COULD also be
wrong.  It's the why behind the assumptions that I have problems with.

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #400
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Traveller-digest        Monday, April 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 401



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Re: max accel (Design contest anyone?)
re: max accel
RE: Atmospheric Fighters
Re: Aerospace defense vehicles
re: max accel
re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:43:21 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 03:02 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:48 PM 4/1/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>>For further info, according to MT, armour factor 40 is equivalent to
>>>CT armour factor 0 (ie minimum armour for a spaceship).
>>>
>>>So the armour of an Iowa is inferior to a Free Trader (on average).
>>>
>>>Phil Kitching
>>>
>>
>>That flucks the reality test, big time!  A minimum of battle ships armor!?!
>>So the hull of all space ships is made of 10+ inches of carbon steel!?!?!
>
>No, it's made of a quarter inch or so of bonded superdense.  Or something
>like that.  
>
>
>

What about before bonded superdence.  Also what about mass.  That superdense
will still mass a great deal even in it is lighter than boiler plate.
Superdense needs some more defining.  Just what is it's base materail and
it's charateristic once it becomes superdense?  I'd not ready to hand way it
just yet.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:43:32 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel (Design contest anyone?)

At 03:34 PM 4/1/99 EST, you wrote:
>> >Maybe it's just another space opera thingamajig, maybe you're just full of
>> >hooey.  It's been part of Traveller for a long time and it's not going
>away.
>> >What goes on in YTU, I frankly don't really care as we're not talking about
>> >YTU, but the OTU.  Get it?
>> > 
>> 
>> I see that that is you OPINION.  I design electronic equipment for a living
>> and I have a pretty good idea of today's reality as far as the design of the
>> systems that I work with on a dayly basis.  There are curtain physical
>> realities that are very unlikely to change in any length of time as they are
>> defined in the media and physics (example the speed on light in a vacume).
>> All I was trying to do was add a little vera similitude to an otherwise
>> unbelievable discrition.  Traveller is generally a fairly hard science game
>> with a minimum of 'magic' gaggets.  That is one of the things that first
>> drew me to traveller 20 years ago.  It was my intent to help define a system
>> to alow it's capabilities to be more easily defined in game terms.  It is
>> obvious that you are not interested in the opinions of others which if true
>> beggs the question, Why are you on a mail list whose purpose is the free
>> exchange of ideas about a shared hobby?
>
>Certainly i'm interested in others opinions (even yours, though sometimes I
>wonder).  
>If I wasn't, I'd have plonked you a looong time ago, much less engaged you in
>this discussion.  You've dodged around the main point to duel over peripheral,
>and minor, points of specifics.  As I said, ignore the specifics (possibly
>uncanonical) mentioned in the SoM.  The general capabilities of EMS sensors
>are well established.  There is NO problem between space and atmospheric
>interaction.  If you don't agree w/ that, then your problem isn't with me, but
>with Traveller.
>

I do not recall Traveller defining the range, detection, ect capabilities of
the EMS sensor IN the atmosphere.  I am not about to state what is posible
in space as I have no experience in space sensors.  I do know some of the
limits on atmospheric sensor as I have worked with them.  If Traveller's
claims are plaonly imposible, passive optical reception over the horison for
example, I do have a problem with it.

>> >> I do not have SoM and you are talking about a very different rampart that
>I
>> >> have access to.  6 tons of sensors!  What does that rampart weight?
>> >
>> >The Rampart masses 186.52 tonnes in BL.  So are the dimensions mentioned
>> >acceptable to you, for the capabilities present?
>> >
>> 
>> BL?  What is that?  The rampart I am familiar with is out of CTs AHL and
>> IIRC is not nearly that big.  (30 or 50 tons displacement)  I dought a F15
>> carries 12000 pounds of sensor equipment.  It's sounds like a lot for an
>> attrition unit but perhaps this excessiveness is neccessary to explain it's
>> versitility.
>
>You asked how much it *weighed*.  It *MASSES* 186.52 tonnes.  Displacement is
>9 tons, compared to the 15dt in Supplement 5.  There are different versions of
>the Rampart, you know.
>
>Now, I take it the size of the sensor unit (3 m3, 6 tonnes, 6m2), at TL-15,
>makes it that it isn't disagreeable to you?  The F15 doubtfully carries that
>much, but the Rampart has at least 6 times the thrust, as well as CG.  We've
>been over this already, too.
>

6 tons in 186 tons is not over the top perportion wise, no, and part of the
problem could be the different verions on the rampart.  The AHL IIRC does
not have CG for example..

>> >Nice how you skipped all the other points.  The specifics mentioned in the
>SoM
>> >are irrelevant.  The point is that it's canon for space sensors to be
>> 
>> I do not have SoM.  I said so before and I do not feel comforable trying to
>> discuss something I have never seen.  I can't put your quote into the
>> context of the large world view.
>
><sigh>.  That's why I've said repeatedly to INGORE it.  sheesh.  lol.
>
>> >effective inside the atmosphere and for the atmosphere/ground sensors to be
>> >effective in space.  That they're the exact same systems and operating on
>the
>> >same principles (whatever they are) must just be a happy coinicidence.
>> >
>> 
>> And not at all realistic.  If they work the same, an F15 could detect the
>> apollo in orbit arround the moon with it's radar that can not penetrate the
>> van allan belts much less the ionosphere and is somehow able to pick up the
>> returned signal that in well below the noise threshold!
>
>Don't tell me about it!  I didn't design the sensor systems, nor their
>capabilities.  There are sensors gurus on teh list far more qualified than you
>and they've never complained about them.  The point is that those are the
>capabilities established by canon.  Do you understand?
>

Yes, I understand your point but just exactly where in canon does it state
the sensor threshold limits?  I do not recall that stat in CT?  I also do
not recall any abjustments for atmosophere type, depth, storms, thermal
masking, camofage, defilade, ect.

>> TL-9 vs TL-12 was not my point.  Also the game mechanic and design system is
>> being compared wheather you wish to admit it or not sence it is the medium
>> of the test.  Example:  Try and design a tank using high guard.  Can't be
>> done.  There are no rules for tanks in HG.  It's a space ship design system.
>> If there are no rules for ducted fan engines, RAM, Tomahawks, Polaris
>> missles, exc you can't test your assumptions, you end up testing the game
>> mechanics.
>
>That's why I do not use HG.  FF&S covers everythign quite nicely and it's part
>of a ground up consistent system (TNE) built to utilize it's designs.
>
>The whole point of any of that was so you could see a combat between a space
>fighter and an atmosphere fighter.  You keep claiming the atmosphere fighter
>will win, but until you design and astmophere fighter and airframed space
>fighter, and are satisfied they are both "optimum" designs, and then put them
>in a combat situation, your claims mean nothing.  When you run a combat,
>you're likely to see the space fighter wins.  You keep arguing about it, but
>don't do the thing to prove it.  Talk is cheap.  You use GURPS.  Use GURPS.

Neither have you, so how do you claim that the space fighter will win?  You
make the assumption based on other people's comments.  I make mine based on
design rules and physical limits within the real world.

>I'm satisfied the results will be just as I've said, despite your "common
>sense."  Now maybe the game systems are all flawed and you're right.  It's
>more than possible, I suppose.  That we're talking about rpg's makes your
>point an exercise in absurdity.
>

If that were so the RPGs are absurd.  I do not consider them so.  I do not
consider any intelectual discorse complete without merit.  We learn from
everything we do, if we are wise.

Also, I stated that a RPG based on space craft might not have a good air
craft design system because it saw no need for the detailed mechanics. This
makes the kind of test you suggest pointless which was the point I was
trying to make.  The only real test would have to be under a 'genre nutral'
design system and even then the test would only ally for that design system,
game mechanic, and tech level within that mechanic.  I'd expect that with
tech level changes there would be changes in the dynamics that would require
design changes and tactics changes the nature of which I could not speculate
on without extensive testing.

>> Really, then what is the power to weight ratio of the following real work
>> systems in FF&S:
>
>You said you have FF&S.  Look for yourself.  I recognize most of those things
>as being in there w/o looking.  I KNOW ramjets, ducted fans, stub wings,
>hardpoints, pylons and masking is in there, but am unsure of the others w/o
>looking.
> 
>> Game systems are inherently limited by what they choose to cover and to what
>> degree of accuracy and depth.  Game systems are by difinition limited and
>> the universe is by (some) definitions infinite.
>
>No kidding.  It's just a game.  Are you rationalizing why you refuse to put up
>or shut up?  Even in the game system of your choice (GURPS, presumably)?  
>

Not exactly, no.  Just pointing out an inferent limitation that might have
been the cause of your assumption.

>> >It's seems clear you've never run such a combat, nor are willing to.  Nor
>> >designed either a space fighter nor atmosphere fighter, nor are willing to.
>> >Very interesting.
>> >In short, you're only following your own conception of "logic" to an absurd
>> >conclusion.
>> > 
>> 
>> Why do you assume based on limited information drawn from flawed simulations
>> designed by non experts (There can be no expert of space war as there has
>> never been one in human experience) that your assumptions are correct?  So
>> we are dealing with premise, supositions, and logical progressions from them
>> them, not fact except where we touch on the real world.
> 
>So why are YOU here, then?  This is a forum for discussion about a game and
>it's environment based on "flawed simulations designed by non-experts."
>:::sarcasm:::  Do you actually play?  Would it be such a chore to have, in

Yes, I do play though not nearly as much as I'd like, like most people I
work, Sigh.

>your next game session, your game system evaluate whether you're correct or

Yes, it would as my gaming time is limited and the games am currently
playing in are not under my control, (I'm not the GM).  Also, I would not
tamper with one of my games as GM to test the theory.  The PCs were in a
scout courier that I know I can beat with a good fighter design.  Why should
I kill off the PCs just to win this arguement especially sence I dought you
would except one battle as 'proof' as I would not do so.  Also a fighter
attack would not fit the current story line.

>not?   Or do you already know the answer?  That given the situations and
>capabilites of crafts presented, the space fighter will win.  I know the game
>answer.  The space fighter wins.  Repeatedly.
>

Have you tried this under Gurps vechiles yourself?  If so please post your
designs and I'll rerun the battle myself.

>> 'all other things being equal' mean just that.  weight, cost, size, TL...
>> ALL other things being equall.  That is what I have been saying all along.
>> I have no dought that a TL15 will beat a TL9.  TL represents design
>> improvements so of course the TL15 will win.  That is a no brainer and I
>> said so in one of original posts to this thread.
>
>Has ANYONE's joined been debating *that* with you.  You came into an existing

Actually I thought you were at one time.  This thread has rambled on a bit.

>discussion and changed the subject w/o telling anyone.  Unfortunately, it

I've mentioned it at least 3 times not counting this one.

>seems noone joined you in your main point (if that's it), and stayed with the
>original point.  You've kept on as if you've been joined.  Since grav vehicles
>and aircraft merge at 
>TL-13 (and effectively, space craft, as well), it's kinda ludicrous, though as
>someone else mentioned there is a TL-15 craft in COACC (though I'd just as
>soon buy some Trepidas and Ramparts instead of those things).  I can certainly
>use them both in different roles, saving me hard earned MCr. 
>
>> I have designed hundreds of systems both real and in game.  I have design
>> cars, planes, and spacecraft for games in several different design systems.
>
>So do you have an air fighter and a space fighter?  If so, Great!  Before your
>next game run a combat and tell us the results (posting the designs would be
>nice, too).

No currently or under the same game system.  I'll play almost any game in
the company is good.  I've found there is something to like in almost any
game system.  I've GMed mostly Gurps (many different Genres), AD&D, D&D, and
CT.  I've also played Battle tech, Robotech, Renagade Legion, Rune Quest,
MagicTG, Melee, Star Fleet Battles, Ace of Aces, and any other game I was
invited to play.  I hope to be playing Earth Dawn in a few weeks when the
moving is over.  My SO is moving in with me.  Every free moment in the last
month has been devote to the move.  We are both looking forward to a break
when we are done.

You have stated that you have done so as well.  Please post YOUR test bed
units.  I have never designed two $ compatable units to make this test
balenced. If $s can let this test be balenced.

First what balence point do you want to use?  Money? Or one unit on one unit
with out concurn for the unit cost?  What GTL?

I think one of the big prblems with our discussion is we have not properly
deffined the test.  If your intent is one on one combat regarless of cost
then I think you are probably right that the space unit will win as I can
not see anybody building and atmospheric craft that is a match for the
Tygeress.  If that is your point I conceed it.  IF you are talking $s, then
I do not conceed and I think you are in an untendable position.

>If not, you lack the two needed to continue this discussion.
>

As I said, it is not doable, but there are other ways.  First we must better
define the terms of the test.

><snip>
>
>> See the point?
>
>Yeah.  It's completely screwey, but yeah.  All of the things you've said,
>you've said before and not convinced anyone (well possibly someone).  It's
>proven, in game context, by designing the two, comparing, and running a
>combat.  Your conclusion is in error, as far as most games are concerned (i'll
>bet even in GURPS), given the tech levels involved.  That you refuse to back
>up and test your claims is very interesting and possibly very relevant to your
>point.
>

Yes, partly, but that is now beside the point.  We have a more interesting
posibility on our hands.

We need to better define the test before we go any farther.  What is to be
the design limit?  I'd say money.  Next we compare not two but three
vehicals.  One air fighter, one space fighter, and one grave tank all of the
same or lower tech level all costing the same or less money.  My guess would
be that in strait fights to the finish in an earth standard atmosphere with
GTL12 that the grav tank will be the overall winner (because they will be
duals the tank has some design advantages).  It would NOT be fair for the
vehiches to be designed by the same person as personal bias is likely to
corrupt the results so perhaps if we can come up with the rules for the test
other interested parties on the list will join in and we can have a little
design contest.

As for a design of my own, my GV2 has gone MIA (looked for it this past week
end).  It will be saturday before I can replace it.

SO:

What GTL?

How much money?

Any other minimum design limits?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:43:45 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 03:56 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The other reason for this was that the P-39 was notoriously _different_
>to fly. Not a bad design, but for pilots breifly trained in light
>front-engined taildraggers, going to a heavier mid engine trike gear
>plane with no further training is going to be tricky at best.
>
>I'll bet the pile at the destination field was bigger ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Frighteningly so. I've heard an estimate that more than a third of all
>lend-lease combat aircraft we handed over to the Soviets never saw
>combat, due to causes ranging from pilot error to logistical screw-ups.
>
>ObTrav: Imagine a sector governor or military leader trying to solve a
>problem by throwing just technology at it - not planning, or training, or
>proper support, just technology.
>

To frighting to think about.  On recruit with an PGMP15 in a crouded baracks...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:43:56 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Atmospheric Fighters

At 04:40 PM 4/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I am just now getting past a huge backlog of TML messages, and this is
>probably old news by now, but I wanted to throw my .2cr into the mix...
>
>>> A couple of problems here.  The rampart as drawn does not have the wing
>>> surface to turn in the atmosphere with an F16 or any other fighter.  In
>the
>>> atmosphere aerodynamics are what count.
>>
>
>I am not sure if wings are an issue, as one of the MOST agile objects out
>there are the things that are used to shoot down those pesky fighters...
>missiles!  Having worked on various missile systems lets just say that at
>any speed a Sidewinder will out turn any F-16, or any aircraft...  back a
>few years ago the AIM 9M could do over 45G's in a turn.  The Rampart looks
>like some missiles to me, and would work just fine at Mach 25+, or at
>500kns, to provide a turning surface.  It may be the best design for the
>job.  Both space and air.   Remember, the entire wing could pivot much like
>the tail surface on most modern fighters, providing extreme maneuverability.
>
>Bob Sanders
>

Turning Gs and speed are not neccessarily the same thing.  I do not know of
any mach 25+ missles that travel in the atmosphere below 50k feet.

And 45g turns would kill a human pilot.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:44:07 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Aerospace defense vehicles

At 08:31 PM 4/1/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>>Subject: re: max accel
>>
>>I'd build laser armed stealth planes with missle bays.  
>
>Hmmm, Charles, have you seen the effective damage of lasers vis a vis
>fusion guns lately ?
>
>Trust me, a laser doesnt scratch a heavy grav tank, once you take the 50 MJ
>per tech level limit into account.
>

Good point, drop the laser, go with the fussion.

>Missiles, sure. These wouldnt happen to have nuclear warheads would they ?
>

Multipurpose det laser nuces.  Lase them of nuc them.  Your choice.

>>Good for air combat
>>and anti space craft work.  My planes are hard to see, the space ship are
>>easy to see during interface.  Fry them crispy and send the missles out NOE
>>after the one you miss.  Add some deep meson sites payed for with less money
>>than you spent on jump drives to get here and thing get interesting.
>
>Well, when conducting the interface you arrange for a big meteor shower.
>Nothing that will cause damage too much to the environment, but enough to
>produce lots and lots of interference.
>

To easy to pick the noise from the signal.  You lock up the real targets in
seconds.  That's what spectromiters are for.  Also that long approach by the
meteor gives the defender time to figure it's ntry vecter and iliminated it
as a posibility.

>Given visual engagement range, you will need a lot of defensive craft to
>cover the entire planet.
>

Just cover the important stuff.  They have to attack curtain tagets to win
anyway.

>>No you can't.  I see you, I shoot you.  Range is LOS.  
>
>See above.
>
>>I'd add some smart
>>air breathing surface skimming missles with Det-laser warheads for over the
>>horison work and CG to increase dwell time and allow for vtol without the
>>normal weight penalties for vtol. 
>
>Air breathing missiles will be slow enough to pick off with lasers. Det

Slow but not visible on IR.  Stealth missles.  Tomahawks!

>warheads have issues under the Imperial Rules of War, and in any case are
>vulnerable to nuke dampers.
>

Only at close range.

>> You have the A-10 from hell.  Massive war
>>load, Stealth to stay out of your percieved LOS, vtol, LOS light speed guns,
>>and fight while in difilade capable.  Toss in some remote sensor modules for
>>early warning and FO capacity and you have a squadron killer.
>
>It's a grav tank.
>

Affraid so.  The difference at this point get blurry.  I guess if it uses
it's wings for some of it's lift it's a plane otherwise it's a tank.

>>
>>You can not pick this craft up on passive sensors beyond vissual range.
>
>Maybe. Remember, stealth is bloody expensive.
>

So is a space fighter.

>>Frankly I think they will be more like light tanks that fly and fight from
>>hidden and prepare position when posible.
>>
>
>You take light tanks, I'll take heavy tanks.
>
>But good to see you are abandoning that silly TL5-8 concept of speed in the
>air being important.
>

Never said speed was all that usefull.  It's bloody useless against enery
weapons.  It's much better not to be seen.

>>True for civilian vehicles but when in combat you want every edge you can
>>get.  Whay do you think we spend 1M per tomahawk when an old B52 has a
>>better range, warload, and is reuseable?  Because of lives and the value we
>>place on them.  Most militaries realise that trained personell are their
>>scariest resource and take step to protect them.
>
>Casualties are the price of victory. Tomohawks have their uses, but I'd
>prefer an F111 nine times out of ten.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>

The F111 is a high survivabilty aircraft and I'll agree with you there.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:44:18 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 12:41 AM 4/2/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.
>
>Sorry, my mistake. I meant the time taken to climb from base to an altitude
>suitable to engage the enemy ships. I realise with something like an F15 or
>a BAe / EE Lightning this is a minimal period, but you are vulnerable as
>you climb *if you can be seen*. (I realise this is a key point in a
>different part of this discussion).
>
>>Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
>>deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
>>redundant remote sensor system.  No more space ships in orbit.  The areo
>
>Out of curiousity, why 24?
>

Just a random number.  Sorry.

>>fighters are dispersed to hidden bases with only one or two plane or posted
>>combat ready in wilderness areas using VTOL to take on the space fighters
>>when the attack to try to clear the way for the space ships to get in close.
>
>Is VTOL compatible with that kind of thrust? Anyway, if you use CG it
>doesn't matter.
>

That's pretty much what I had in mind as CG has less wight penalty than good
VTOL gear I think.  Would have to compare them but Cg has some advantages in
war load to so it would probably win.

>>>The atmospheric fighters don't get to play, unless the carrier lets them.
>>>Even with an ASAT weapon like the F15 Clancy describes in Red Storm Rising,
>>>they are vulnerable as they have to get high enough to engage.
>>The fighters also have energy weapon that can reach space if they are of
>>equal tech level.
>
>I think this is where the problem will come in. Unless you use batteries,
>you'll need a power plant capable of charging the 'laser'. I suspect this
>is what will push the cost of mass of the airframe up. It's what would make
>non-CG ships more viable. You could end up with the equivalent of an A340
>to carry the power. Admittedly, the abomination known as Fusion Plus  makes
>this easier.
>

As would accumulaters.

>>>Operating down the potential well is a big problem.
>>Yep, but you can mount MUCH BIGGER GUNS of a planet! (Grin)
>
>But your life support is much more fragile, in some ways (grin).
>
>Dom
>

Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star Wars
Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so powerful
that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:44:29 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 01:17 AM 4/2/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>Against the space fleet you introduced to bombard the fighter bases, yes.
>>Frankly weapons systems rarely fight it out one on one.  They are part of a
>>combined force with a gaol and resources placed in oposition against another
>>force with differing goals and resources.  To properly test the fesibility
>>of the rampart or my hypothetical fighter you would need to test them under
>>the conditions they were designed you be under, planetary assault.
>
>I introduced the orbital bombardment bit - there is nothing to stop the
>carrier having a support capacity, be it meson bays/mounts or a missile bay
>and deadfall ordnance.
>
>So in this case it wasn't Walt....
>Dom
>

Soory, it's hard to tell who did what.  This is a long thread!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:44:51 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

>I agree. Realising just how small the RL ship you mention was in Traveller
>terms was scary.
>

Very!!!

>Sorry - the point I was trying to make was that CT evolved to include a
>design system that was more inclusive.
>

Real life got in the way while a lot happen in traveller.  I missed a lot
during that time.

>>>Assuming equal technology levels. And the ability of the dedicated system
>>>to operate within its design parameters. If these are exceeded, or pushed
>>>to the limit, the general technology may have the edge.
>>The same can be said for the general technology and is more likely as it was
>>not designed for what it is being asked to do.
>
>But if the aerospace capable fighter can draw the air fighter to the upper
>reaches of the atmosphere, (for example), the air fighter is ppush its
>parameters. If an aerospace fighter enters the atmosphere, it is still
>within its parameters, even if it has limitations that an air fighter
>doesn't.
>

Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be better
to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only to
fire it's energy weapons.


Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:45:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 10:02 AM 4/2/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>> Not, true.  The air craft fight from the atmosphere.  No 'boost' phase.
>> Second any planet that consedes space superiorty will likely loose so 24
>> deep meson sites on the planet and 24 more on the moon with a massively
>> redundant remote sensor system.
>
>Please note that Earth's moon is an aberration. A typcal moon for an
>Earth sized planet will be more like Phobos or Deimos (the moons of
>Mars). Big enough to provide *some* protection, but not much. Rocks a
>few miles across. A few heavy meson gun shots and the crust will be
>well cracked and of little protection for a meson site.
>
>Also, they'll be a hell of a lot *closer*. 
>
>Terra/Luna is more of a "double planet" and thus a *rare* configuration.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

Did not know that.  Thanks!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:57:14 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

So there we were, a few us just sitting around #traveller, having a few
adult beverages (Earl Grey for me) when I decided to bring up Seth's
idea about doing a big starship show.  The gist of the idea was, "Hey,
you know how they have these big boat shows and car shows and even house
shows where the best and flashiest models are rounded up and displayed,
well..."

I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE that we are now accepting applications from
those shipbuilding firms who wish to display their wares.  This site
will display your best one or two ship designs.  The requirements are
that they be complete, meaning that there be at least:

One exterior graphic view - line drawings through ray-traced 3D
holographics accepted

Deck Plans - 2D, 3D, 4D, your choice

Design stats - any design system or level of detail accepted

This means that if you are big into deck plans, but don't do exterior
pix, that you may want to team up with someone who makes pretty
pictures.  Collaborative designs may be the best.  They will be
displayed at http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/ssw_trav/ , which is being
administered (graciously) by Michel Vaillancourt.  You can submit your
completed entries to him at ssw.trav@atlantic-online.ns.ca  Here's a
taste of the level of hype we hope to generate Behind the Claw.
_____         _____            _____          _____            _____

"Only once every ten years does this spectacle make a stop in your
Domain! The original Starship Showcase at Mora/Mora will begin on 001
and run for 200 standard days! All of the finest designs from Deneb's
premier shipbuilders will be on display, demonstration runs are planned
every week and financiers will be on hand!"

"This is that once in a decade chance to see all of the latest starship
models, side-by-side, in the comfort of the Grand Ducal Ballroom of the
Moran Highport! Feast your eyes on the raciest hull designs, walk the
sparkling decks and custom order your favorite model, all in the lap of
legendary luxury created just for your pleasure by Barnham's Spectacular
Shows!"


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

PS.  yeah, yeah, I know: why isn't this show on Downport.com?  Simply
because we still don't have a techie-gearhead editor on staff, yet.
Still seeking volunteers!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #401
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, April 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 402



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: max accel
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Gazelle
Demountable tanks 
drop-tanks economics
Re: Design contest anyone?
EW was BC...  8^)
Updated version of my space combat system
Drop tanks, Gazelles, stock matkets, & Al Morai
RE: Far Trader Economics
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: drop tanks
Re: Chaos...
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:07:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>ObTrav: Imagine a sector governor or military leader trying to solve a
>problem by throwing just technology at it - not planning, or training, or
>proper support, just technology.
>

To frighting to think about.  On recruit with an PGMP15 in a crouded baracks...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've read a book titled (IIRC) _Company Commander_, an account by 
an infantry company commander during WW2 in Europe. During the
Battle of the Bulge, his company suffered it's worst casualties when
a new recruit came into the crowded mess tent for chow and accidentally 
set off a rifle grenade.

Frightening indeed.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:19:28 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Hans Rancke wrote:

> >Why did we not see a BB equiped w/ drop tanks in Fighting Ships?
>
> Real life explanation: Because the authors didn't think of it.
> In-game explanation: Because _Fighting Ships_ didn't contain more than a
> small fraction of all designs.

Also, drop tanks are highly fragile in combat -- they don't get armor
protection in HG, and any hit to fuel before armor is considered destroys 
them.  They make more sense on commercial vessels than military for most
purposes.  TCS also had "external demountable tanks" that were like drop
tanks except that they took longer to attach and couldn't be dropped.

The first TCS competition in 1981 had some winning military ships which 
used drop tanks to help meet the minimum jump requirements.  But in that
competition the victor was judged on the outcome of one battle, so ships
with drop tanks didn't need to worry about post-combat logistics.

Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net> wrote:

> While we're on this topic, is now a good time to ask why the Gazelle 
> is allowed 4 turrets under High Guard?

As I recall, under the final High Guard drop tank rules it's not allowed. 
The Gazelle is one of the first CT designs, and my guess is that either
the designer goofed or the rule hadn't been solidified yet.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:26:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Gazelle

>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks
>
>While we're on this topic, is now a good time to ask why the Gazelle 
>is allowed 4 turrets under High Guard?

  Short answer: it isn't :(

  An alternative CE was posted 12-01-98, modified to be TL F and legal.

                LE-4455562-300000-40200-0       MCr 293.03      400 tons
        batteries                 2 2                             TL=15.
        batteries bearing         2 2                           Crew=11.
        Fuel=221. EP=21. Agility=0.

  Steven Hudson        

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:26:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Demountable tanks 

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks was Garbage
...
>These have been mentioned.  The list calls them demountable tanks
>(is there a canonical source?  The Traveller adventure mentiones
>internal tanks).  I don't think anyone disagree with these.

  Demountable tanks (internal or exterior) have some minor problems,
not the least being that clever players will wonder why they should
bother with the internal ones when a pre-fab tanker container could 
probably be found that took less than a week to dismount :|

  Both sorts would likely be more palatable if they cost more than KCr
 1.0 per Dt - even 5 or 10 would start to screw up the standard "drop
tank" economics if they truly weren't significantly re-usable (i.e.,
the material might be recycled but the tank would be essentially re-
manufactured at close to original cost - failure to do so might be a
great reason to use Hans' recommended +1 to misjump rolls).

  Of course, it's the HG/TCS rules on pure "drop tanks" that are the worst.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:46:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: drop-tanks economics

>From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: Re: Garbage
...
>Maybe drop-tanks really aren't economicallly feasible for commercial use in
>the Imperium.
>I haven't run the numbers, but in most Traveller incarnations traders are only
>just viable anyway, and the additional expense of paying for drop tanks and
>the associated couplings each time may not be justifiable.

  How about running some numbers in your favourite Trav edition and tell
us how standard and external tankage ships stack up, and then we'll compare
the costs to figure out how much inconvenience it's worth. NOTE - if you run
this for CT/HG and aren't appalled by the disparity, then you're not trying
hard enough :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:47:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Design contest anyone?

>From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: max accel (Design contest anyone?)
...
>not recall any abjustments for atmosophere type, depth, storms, thermal
>masking, camofage, defilade, ect.

  Most of these are, of course, in Striker.

...
>We need to better define the test before we go any farther.  What is to be
>the design limit?  I'd say money.  Next we compare not two but three
>vehicals.  One air fighter, one space fighter, and one grave tank all of the
>same or lower tech level all costing the same or less money.  My guess would
...

  Duels are not a great comparison, although I'll agree that a grav tank will
do very well in most cases. It should be noted that a heavy grav tank/gunship
is really just a small light SDB, and as such can participate in many missions
whereas an air-breathing flier or pure CG grav tank is limited to planetary
operations only. Thus, any pure comparison will be about as useful as trying
to assess the flexibility of a medium mortar as compared to a WW2 dive bomber.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:48:46 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: EW was BC...  8^)

> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:02:28 -0500
> From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
> Subject: Re: The Black Curtain
>
> I hate to ask, but after a fruitless web search, I just gotta...
>
> What is the Empress Wave?

Okay now you're opening a whole other can of worms...

> Thad K. Sneed
>
> Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:57:44 -0700
> From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
> Subject: Re: The Black Curtain
>
> "Thad K. Sneed" wrote:
> >
> > I hate to ask, but after a fruitless web search, I just gotta...
> >
> > What is the Empress Wave?
>
> I don't think it was ever fully developed by GDW before they went
> out of business.  As far as I recall, it was discovered by Project
> Longbow and was moving outward from the galactic core.  It apparently
> had entered Zhodani space and was destroying the psi abilities of
> the Zho nobles.  There may be some write ups of it in TNE materials,
> maybe magazines.  Anyway, the "Chick in Black" (the woman dressed in
> the wicked witch outfit on the cover of TNE) figured into this
> somehow as part of an Emperor's (Strephon's ???) dreams.  IMHO, I'm
> glad this story line wasn't developed further.

Okay I have some contentions about this but it's basically correct.

The EW is a psychic phenomenon, traveling outwards from the galactic core at the speed
of light.  The CIB is indeed the Empress, and it was Strephon's dreams that she was in
but only after he'd been exposed to the EW data from the Longbow site in Corridor.  The
reason he wasn't at core to be assassinated by Dulinor..  8^)

I think it's a pretty interesting story line personally.  It's effects seem somewhat
varied but it seems to brind about a fundamental change in peoples mindests.  IMO and
FWIU it seems to have the greatest impact on monolithic cultures, or the greatest
visable impact on monolithic cultures.  The EW had been travelling through the Vargr
extents for equally as long as it had through Zho space however, because the very
nature of Vargr society is chaotic its effect was less pronounced than those witnesses
in Zhodani space where society and politics were somewhat less dynamic.

I have my doubts about it stripping Psychic talents most of the evidence we've been
left with due to the fall of GDW is somewhat to the contrary, it would seem or it sure
looks like (and this is strickly my opinion here) that the EW rather than closing off
psionic's rips them wide open.  Suddenly proles are psionic's and with this mass of
terror at the discovery of new tallents a psychic wave of hysteria spreads across the
planet growing in strength as it goes.  The Zho nobels psionic tallents are also opened
up and they overload due to the wave of panic sweeping across their planets.
Essentially destroying the Zho governement as the rulers become catatonic...

One thing that's not mentioned is that there is more than one Longbow site.  Evidence
within Survival Margin hints at three Longbow stations.   Gabriel (Depot Corridor),
Herod and Raphael both somewhere out in the Vargr Extents or beyond...

It seems that the initial wavefront of the EW simply brings about visions of the
Empress/CIB.  It isn't untill some 40-70 years later that the destruction begins to
appear, the reasons for this are as yet unexplained...

DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:00:37 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Updated version of my space combat system

For those who are interested, I've plugged a few of the (doubtless) many
holes and kicked the rev up to .03 ... ;'0

It's also now available as html at my web site:
http://www.mailbag.com/users/wlewis/scsht.html

Be aware that the html is a Word 97 conversion - which is to say it
stinks.
As time permits, I'll clean it up.

Thanks,

William

- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:21:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Drop tanks, Gazelles, stock matkets, & Al Morai

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Garbage 
...
>confidence (and thus use) of them.  Insurance companies refusing to insure 
>drop tanked ships, etc.  The inertia of the Imperial Bureacracy licencing and
...

  Megacorps will self-insure their ships, unless their management is truly
monumentally idiotic. If you assume that the 3I does require licenses to be
issued for designs then that's a potential problem, but it doesn't apply to
the rest of the universe.

...
>Obviously you don't agree.  It's not going to be "hey, lets' all switch to 
>drop tank ships, first have r&d design us some ships.  nevermind the 27 point 
>stock drop upon our announcement.  Then let's convert our entire fleet over, 
>despite the fact they may be dangerous and lose us more money than we gain."  
>That's ludicrous.  You have to be setting up a straw man.  

  Once it becomes a business decision rather than an engineering problem
then the battle is over - drop tanks will dominate most routes if the issue
is seen to be largely economic. If Gazelles exist without huge attrition
rates from drop tank use then the engineering issues are clearly solved,
at least for cargo uses (there is precedent for the "people are stupid"/
"perception is everything" problem if liners blow up once in a while, but
luckily that's inconceivable :| ).

  It might also be pointed out that our current business cultures obsession
with short-term stock values may be seen in the future as a pathology; it is
assuredly not a constant in the modern world.

...
>Only if the IN funds the ship designs.  As Real Life shows, it's far too 
>often actual effectiveness takes a back seat to political and economic 
>considerations.

  The Gazelle (however bizarre a mis-design it might be to us now) has
supposedly used drop tanks since it was designed, but its hard to believe
that it's a 1095-1100 new build; if it was originally a Rim War escort (and
what else could keep up with an AHL?) then what was it doing for L-Hyd tankage?

... 
>Nor in 20.  How quick can the funding be gathered?  How many spare drop 
>tanks?  A megacorp might handle it in 10.  If they have the will to.  If the 
>CEO and board members aren't convinced of the profitability (and a faulty 
>design can lose them a MCr ship, it's crew, compensation to families of the 
>crew, lawsuits by the families and the buying concerns, etc etc, as well the 
>ordinary revenue that was going to be gathered by the ship).  Being more than 
>partially Vilani, what would you do?  honestly.

  See my comments of last fall re: Al Morai; at any time post-5FW switching
over a standard Type MK would take around 10 weeks in a shipyard. Their corp
structure also covers financing and management issues quite handily. Of course,
they're not Vilani either :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:51:44 -0400 
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Far Trader Economics

A few things might help.  First, skimming if the ship's got a fuel
processor, then use it instead of buying fuel. Second, cargo instead of
freight.  A broker can make a whole lot more money then regular freight.
Did they change the cost of freight?  I thought it was 1000Cr per ton. And
obviously they've changed traveling rates.  I think that right there makes
the biggest change. Using any of the pre-Gurps rates of 10,000 per high
passage, 8000 per middle passage and 1000 per low passage your formula
changes to

Income per ship:
3 High Pass: 30 KCr
6 Middle Pass: 48 KCr
20 Low Pass: 20KCr
63.5 Tons Freight: 63.5 KCr

Total income is 161.5 KCr per jump.

Of course your expenses would change also since I think fuel, life support
and all is also different.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	John Buston [mailto:John.Buston@tesco.net]
		Sent:	Sunday, April 04, 1999 1:17 PM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Far Trader Economics

		I have just received my copy of Far Trader.  It looks very
comprehensive, and
		covers trade in as much detail as you could want, with lots
of good ideas. 

		I have been trying to make the Far Trader economics work for
a Beowulf Free
		Trader, but cannot get the figures to come out anywhere near
a profit.

		I tried to work out the income & expenditure for a single
jump, with 100% load,
		and came up with:

		Income per jump:

		  3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
		  6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr
		  20 Low Passengers:   20*175   =  3.5 KCr
		  63.5 DT of Freight:  63.5*700 = 44.5 KCr

		Expenditure per jump:

		  Mortgage = 58 KCr
		  Salaries =  5 KCr
		  Fuel     =  2 KCr
		  Maintenance
		   contribution = 1 KCr
		  Berthing = 20 KCr
		  Sundries = 1 KCr

		Assumptions:
		  24 jumps year.
		  Unarmed.
		  Mortgage = 240th ships cost per month.
		  12.5 DT of cargo space taken up by passengers and crew
baggage.

		So   Income per Jump = 69 KCr
		Expenditure per Jump = 87 KCr

		This makes a loss of 20% per jump, and doesn't become
profitable until you do 35
		jumps a year, which is impractical.

		What am I missing?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:41:15 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

Clint Fishback wrote:

> A few things might help.  First, skimming if the ship's got a fuel
> processor, then use it instead of buying fuel. Second, cargo instead of
> freight.  A broker can make a whole lot more money then regular freight.

Speculative cargoes is risky business.  The potential profits are great,
but so are the potential losses.

> Did they change the cost of freight?  I thought it was 1000Cr per ton. And
> obviously they've changed traveling rates.  I think that right there makes
> the biggest change. Using any of the pre-Gurps rates of 10,000 per high
> passage, 8000 per middle passage and 1000 per low passage your formula
> changes to

Pretty much everything is changed.  Freight, cargo, and passage rates are all
variable.  Far Trader is an attempt to be as realistic as possible.  While its
compatible with other versions of Traveller, you have to dispell the basic and
short hand system of the old, 10KCr High passage and 1Kcr/ton of frieght.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:46:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: drop tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Garbage
...
>stations.  What happens there?  Does it eliminate piracy
>like Ian (?) claims?   Do the PC get hired by General

  Me, IIRC, although I doubt I ever claimed "eliminate". Piracy is
pretty much provably stuck in backwaters and outsystems, so the ones
who really get screwed by "jump-stations" are potential hijackers.

...
>They also have the problem in that they firmly establish
>that jump fuel can be converted to power and should be
>usable for other purposes.

  I may have missed something in this thread, but this only follows
(i.e., shooting up the displacement mass hand-wave) if it is clearly
specified that jump can be held for a significant time period after
the tanks are dropped; I've heard this, but don't know the page ref.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:56:13 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Chaos...

Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
>
> Not wanting to start a war here but think carefully about what you said there.  Did
> Tolkien publish The Two Towers first?  Did Empire Strikes Back come out first?  No,
> no one publishes the second book of a trilogy first...  Doesn't make sence.

Actually, most typos don't..what I meant to say was only the first and
second ones were published...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:08:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

On 04/04/99 13:52:06 you wrote:
>>Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:25:50 -0600 (CST)
>>From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
>
>>     I'm not going to do that, but let's try some back of the envelope
>>calculations.  Based on all the designs we did for Far Trader, j-drives 
and
>>cost around 60% and fuel tanks about 20% of a vanilla large J-2 ship.  The
>>advantages of drop tanks are that the ship doesn't need to carry it's fuel
>>tanks with it into j-space and can therefore reduce j-drive capacity
>>accordingly, and that it can share the cost of fuel tanks with several 
other
>>ships.  For a constant volume of cargo, a J-2 ship using drop tanks can
>>reduce j-drive and fuel tank capacity (hence cost) by 20%. Since these two
>>components make up 80% of the cost of the ship we see a (.8*.2=.16) 16% 
drop
>>in ship price.  That's not huge but it is enough to make a big difference
>>commercially. The cost advantage also goes up with jump number.
>
>You are forgetting something.  You are assuming these ships
>remain small jump ships.  When you don't have fuel, a Free
>Trader can go from J-1 to J-6 and only loose 10% of its
>volume (less than it gained from not having to carry jump
>fuel).  I made up a Free trader without fuel that could
>do jump-6 and still carry 30% more cargo.
>
>At the least, I can't see how the upgraded free trader
>won't make a lot more money (mortgage, salaries, annual
>maintenance cost all depend on how fast the cargo get
>there).

	A Beowulf-class Free Trader converted to J-6 and drop tanks _would_ 
make a lot more money than a conventional Beowulf.  Of course, it would also 
cost a lot more to own and operate.  The difference in price between a J-1 
and J-6 drive for a 200-dton GT ship is 31MCr.  This more than doubles the 
price of the ship.  The cost of operating a drop tank ship is also higher 
because of the additional infrastructure required.  It is true that drop-
tank ships are overall likely to be less expensive to operate than 
conventional designs and that this advantage increases with jump number, but 
it is also true that this cost advantage is not so large as to be truly 
revolutionary.

>Now in you explination, you mentioned how the economics
>were based on the assumption that trade will be generally
>jump-2.  If trade become generally jump-6 won't that make
>a non-trivial difference?  At the least, it should
>redically change the BTNs, and what is based on them.

It is true that if trade became significantly cheaper and/or faster, the 
distance mods used in calculating the BTNs would have to be revised.  
However, it would have to be a _huge_ change, because the BTN scale is very 
course.  Remember that a +0.5 increase in BTN is equal to a five-fold 
increase in trade, and a +1.0 increase is a ten-fold increase in trade.  I 
did this purposefully so as to make BTNs robust to IMTU-type changes to 
background people might wish to make.  Drop-tanks fall into this category.

>Remember, the overhead for a drop tank station is not going to
>be that great.  You need a fuel shuttle, a few tanks, and
>some piping.  If you traffic doesn't warrant hanging around,
>you can just have a ship that carries a tank in it belly.
>It goes out to the jump point, lets the other ship use
>it, and brings it back.  All the port realy needs is a place to park it.

	In analyzing LASH ships Chris and I found that just the expense of 
having extra Lighters and Oilers around to keep things running smoothly 
eliminated a great deal of the LASH cost advantage.  Since LASH and drop-
tank operations are substantially similar, I suspect the same will be the 
case here.  In fact, Chris's previously posted analysis suggests just that.  

>You would convert rather than replace.  You just need to
>install the new capatitor banks and fitting for the
>pipping.

	You also have to covert all the fuel tankage to cargo space, including 
adding access-ways, etc.  It could be done.




- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:08:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

On 04/04/99 18:17:21 you wrote:
>
>I have just received my copy of Far Trader.  It looks very comprehensive, 
and
>covers trade in as much detail as you could want, with lots of good ideas. 
>
>I have been trying to make the Far Trader economics work for a Beowulf Free
>Trader, but cannot get the figures to come out anywhere near a profit.
>
>I tried to work out the income & expenditure for a single jump, with 100% 
load,
>and came up with:
>
>Income per jump:
>
>  3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>  6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>  20 Low Passengers:   20*175   =  3.5 KCr
>  63.5 DT of Freight:  63.5*700 = 44.5 KCr
>
>Expenditure per jump:
>
>  Mortgage = 58 KCr
>  Salaries =  5 KCr
>  Fuel     =  2 KCr
>  Maintenance
>   contribution = 1 KCr
>  Berthing = 20 KCr
>  Sundries = 1 KCr
>
>Assumptions:
>  24 jumps year.
>  Unarmed.
>  Mortgage = 240th ships cost per month.
>  12.5 DT of cargo space taken up by passengers and crew baggage.
>
>So   Income per Jump = 69 KCr
>Expenditure per Jump = 87 KCr
>
>This makes a loss of 20% per jump, and doesn't become profitable until you 
do 35
>jumps a year, which is impractical.
>
>What am I missing?

	You're missing four things:

(1) As has been pointed out, you should be making twice as much per high-
passenger.  This by itself closes your revenue short-fall from 19KCr to 
9KCr.

(2) 24 jumps a year is too few.  Canon aside, you don't need to spend a 
whole week knocking about port looking for freight and passengers.  35 jumps 
a year is definitely the max, but something in between helps close your 
revenue short-fall further.

(3) Skills!  Your crew should have Merchant skill to push up your freight 
rate, savoir-faire to push up passenger ticket prices, Market Analysis and 
Economics to predict where above average freight and passenger rates can be 
found, and Area Knowledge to find those juicy speculative cargos.

(4) The Beowulf has got to be the hardest ship to make money in ever 
designed.  Try an Empress Marava coupled with some long-distance trading 
strategies and tell me what you find.  The biggest problem I had in 
designing these rules was in how to keep clever players and highly skilled 
characters from making too _much_ money.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:14:13 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:57:14 -0400 "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> writes:
>So there we were, a few us just sitting around #traveller, having a 
>few
>adult beverages (Earl Grey for me)


If you say, Earl Grey, hot, I promise you'll regret it.  Resistance is
futile, you will be nuked.


>
>I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE that we are now accepting applications from
>those shipbuilding firms who wish to display their wares. 


This, however, is a great idea.  Look forward to some HG designs.


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:14:23 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

- ----- Original Message -----
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
: If you say, Earl Grey, hot, I promise you'll regret it.  Resistance is
: futile, you will be nuked.

Look, I have the coif, so I get to use the lines.  There has to be
_some_ compensation for having a "thermally challenged" head.



==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

___________hosted_by___________
               www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:23:44 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

In a message dated 4/5/99 10:56:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

<< 
 Oops. I made a typo here. It should have been 3500Cr for high passage. But 
the
 total was correct.
  >>
Ahhh. I didn't think it would make up any difference...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:22:15 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

In a message dated 4/5/99 9:25:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
journeyman2000@juno.com writes:

<< aka external burning ramjets >>

Actually it's more like an inside-out rocket engine.There are 2 types-linear 
aerospike and axial aerospike.I'll hunt down a link if you'd like but the 
last time I looked the site was down.

BobS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #402
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Traveller-digest        Monday, April 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 403



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Aurora  (was max accel)
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
RE: 10/100 Diameters 
#Traveller Undernet
Re: Aurora  (was max accel)
Villani [sic] Repository of All Knowledge??
Re: Lawyers
Re: Misjumps
Re: Misjumps
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #394
Re: #Traveller Undernet
Re: Aurora  (was max accel)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #396
Vilani language question
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #397
Re: #Traveller Undernet
Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: Ad Astra by Wasteland Games
Jump Limits
Drop Tanks
re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 99 15:31:46 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

On 04/04/99 at 08:44 AM,  j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com> said:

Shawdow says...

>>Aerospike nozzle.

>aka external burning ramjets

That's what I've read.  Not a very stealthy approach, I wouldn't think. ;->

Of course, it's supposed to be "built for speed" not stealth.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:40:11 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:14:23 -0400 "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> writes:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
>: If you say, Earl Grey, hot, I promise you'll regret it.  Resistance 
>is
>: futile, you will be nuked.
>
>Look, I have the coif, so I get to use the lines.  There has to be
>_some_ compensation for having a "thermally challenged" head.
>
>
>

heheheh, I bow to your illuminated crown, I'm beginning to get there
myself.


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:51:47 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: 10/100 Diameters 

Hi All,

This is kind of a followup to the relative velocity between systems
topic...

Is there a common orientation reference direction that can be described
from each system? 

IMTU, I have always allowed relative velocity to be kept through jump.
(Roll 2d6 for # of G-turns required to correct velocity - 1d6 for hex
direction of velocity). Sucessful navigation tasks to determine this
info prior to jump.

I could never figure out a way to keep track of relative positioning
without a custom software package. I wrote a BASIC program 14 years ago
that calculated Book 6 system positions as a function of a time seed. 

I wish I could find that input now. It was for an Apple IIe and was the
culmination of a high school summer of learning BASIC. By that autumn, I
had a girlfriend and my gaming and programming time suffered
considerably. It hasn't really improved since. 

FWIW, both the computer and the girlfriend were repeatedly upgraded to
better models. 

Bye,

Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 13:49:29 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: #Traveller Undernet

Greetings!

Pressed for time this week, so...

This week's topic is Gurps Character Generation!

The #Traveller Undernet homepage has been updated to reflect the current
topic and now has a Future Chat Schedule!  Please note I've added a second
session on Saturday afternoons.

Please note that I'm still looking for virtual TAS lounge names. We only
have eight official entries to date.  I hope to add voting capabilities to
the site closer to the end of the month.

A new area has been added for listing IRC games. If you run a game or are
in a game, please let me know.  Altec and Uplift will be added by week's
end. CmdrX, may I add yours?

Cheers!

Suz

http://home.att.net/~websuz/
http://home.att.net/~suzdollar/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:03:32 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

I'd like to see that.


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:22:15 EDT RnLschaefr@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 4/5/99 9:25:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>journeyman2000@juno.com writes:
>
><< aka external burning ramjets >>
>
>Actually it's more like an inside-out rocket engine.There are 2 
>types-linear 
>aerospike and axial aerospike.I'll hunt down a link if you'd like but 
>the 
>last time I looked the site was down.
>
>BobS.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:52:36 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Villani [sic] Repository of All Knowledge??

> From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
> Subject: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??
> 
> I'm desparately searching for additional information about the AAB.  
> Specifically, I'm wondering what role it plays in the Spinward Marches, circa 
> 1120.  Milleu 0 is an awesome resource, but of course, is set in a different era.  
> Are there publications past or present that would be a good resource?  Or, am I 
> to assume that the lack of information for later eras means that it plays a 
> significantly smaller role in the Third Imperium?

I think Megatraveller's Imperial Encyclopedia covers this; if not, look
at DGP's Vilani & Vargr.  Remember, the MT era starts about 1116, so
it's a good time period for you.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:56:13 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Lawyers

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > Briefly, Imperial justice is carried out by selected nobles who receive
> > the title of "Lord Judge" or "Imperial Judge" in addition to their other

[deletion]
 
> This is all YTU, I take it, or are some of these things in Canon?

Yes, it's all in my Traveller universe.  I apologize if I didn't make
that clear.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 13:12:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Misjumps
> 
> At 08:15 PM 4/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >What EXACTLY is a misjump?
[deletion]

> The canonical misjump throws the ship anywhere between 1 and 36 parsecs in
> a random direction.  Time dialation is also a common problem, with jumps
> lasting much longer than the usual 168 hours.

Don't forget the possible "ship destroyed" result, which I take to mean
that it never comes out of jump space.  Now if the ship isn't actually
destroyed, it's just stuck in jump space and the people aboard have as
long to live as they have life support.  As I recall, the expected
duration of jump -- even misjump -- is known to the ship at the moment
of jump, so the officers at least will know that they're never getting
out.  It would make for a very dark scenario.  I don't think I'd inflict
it on the players, unless I thought they'd enjoy it.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 15:02:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 

> Don't forget the possible "ship destroyed" result, which I take to mean
> that it never comes out of jump space.  Now if the ship isn't actually
> destroyed, it's just stuck in jump space and the people aboard have as
> long to live as they have life support.  As I recall, the expected
> duration of jump -- even misjump -- is known to the ship at the moment
> of jump, so the officers at least will know that they're never getting
> out.  It would make for a very dark scenario.  

Actually, no. there are other misjump possibilities, ranging from simple
failure to jump, with possible damage to the drives, to the ND6
displacement in  a random direction to destruction of the ship.

The majority of misjumps, however are minor variations in the time of
jump or the final exit location. So yes, the ships officers will know
the expected length of jump duration, but it can vary...meaning that the
scenario above is converted into a race against time and air supply...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 08:31:03 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #394

>>>>

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:59:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos

Joseph Kimball writes:
<snip>
> The book is a bit surprising from a physical standpoint <zzapp>
As I recall, it seems pretty typical of books from small publishers --
decent
paper quality, poor quality cover art, not very good binding.
>>>>
The paper quality is significantly better than "decent" and the cover
art is similar to other Traveller pictures from the TNE period (so is
not especially "poor").  The binding is actually very good, better than
all but a few mass-produced paperback books I have read (and I have read
quite a few).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:41:33 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: #Traveller Undernet

In a message dated 4/5/99 4:56:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
websuz@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< The #Traveller Undernet  >>
Pardon my ignorance....What is the Undernet?

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:07:29 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

In a message dated 4/5/99 5:06:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
journeyman2000@juno.com writes:

<< I'd like to see that. >>
Assuming you mean the aerospike you can try these--

http://www.boeing.com/space/rdyne/x33/index.html
http://paris.lerc.nasa.gov/kdavidian/AEROSPIKE/pictures.html

These should give you a good idea of how they work.

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:17:46 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #396

>>>>
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:06:34 -0800
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos

Actually the first two were published.  The first, "The Death of 
Wisdom" might be ordered.  ISBN 1-55878-181-1

Kristian
>>>>
I found the following listing on the Barnes and Noble Web site,
searching on the ISBN #.  They apparently don't stock it but will try to
find it for people.  They charge a US$5 finder fee in addition to the
cover price though (doubles the price of the book - ouch!).
- - Joseph

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=22RES1V0OQ&mscssid=UMRXX2DFVKS12L0Q00CGND08M7H6DG96&pcount=0&isbn=1558781811

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:38:25 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Vilani language question

Hey, a question non-directly related to ship deckplans or pictures!!!!  I'll
admit that it'll have an effect later though *weg*.  Is there a canon word
for "falconer, falconeer, etc (falconry, sport of kings)???  I've been
trying to find ref's on the Jump Points page for Vilani stuff, but haven't
found a "dictionary" anywhere....

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:13:37 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #397

>>>>
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:31:18 -0500
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: fleet Jumps 

Christopher Thrash wrote:
The latest information I have from Marc Miller on jump drives strongly
implies that jump stations will not work:

"Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes
on
later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
prohibition the way breakout is.]

I guess this puts an end to fleets jumping together.
Alan
>>>>
Not necessarily.  A sphere of 100 000 dtons has a volume of 50 000 000
cubic feet (from GT p151).  Using the formula for a sphere (four thirds
pi r cubed), r is about 229 ft (just slightly less, but I rounded up the
last fraction of a foot to save myself another several minutes
calculation with a silly 4 function calculator that was handy).  Double
r to get d and you get 458 ft.  100 times 458 is 45800 ft between ships
of this size to jump while being 100 diameters away from each other. 
There are 5280 ft to a mile, so that is only 8.67 miles (about 14.45
km).  That tends to be pretty close as distances in space go.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 15:42:00 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: #Traveller Undernet

><< The #Traveller Undernet  >>
>Pardon my ignorance....What is the Undernet?

Aaaaccckkk!  I said I was *short* on time today... <G>

Undernet is a segment of the IRC or Internet Relay Chat community. It
allows realtime text based chat for all logged into a particular channel.

To access undernet, you need an IRC client (I feel an FAQ for my site
coming on...).  For PC clones, I recommend mIRC or Pirch (should I link?)
and for Mac boxes I've been told that Ircle is the best client. Once you
have installed the client, point it to undernet.  Currently, I use Phoenix
as my server of choice (phoenix.az.us.undernet.org, port 6667). I know mIRC
comes with a list of servers preset, scroll down to select an IRC server.
It is recommended by the internet community to use a server close to your
physical location, but I can assure you best results if most/all of the
attendees are on the same server. Lag, the time it takes for a message to
get from one client to the other via the IRC servers, can be brutal.

If you need help actually getting online, email me privately after you have
selected and installed a client and I'll be happy to work with you. 

I can be reached by ICQ, #1323623, for this purpose.

Cheers!

Suz

http://home.att.net/~websuz/
http://home.att.net/~suzdollar/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:41:11 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage

>Maybe drop-tanks really aren't economicallly feasible for commercial use in
>the Imperium.
>I haven't run the numbers, but in most Traveller incarnations traders are
only
>just viable anyway, and the additional expense of paying for drop tanks and
>the associated couplings each time may not be justifiable.
>


Lets do some numbers: (all my numbers are based on MT)

Free Trader gets a shipment to be delivered from 2036 Glisten/Spinward
Marches to 2038 Trane/Spinward Marches. Ship refuels and jumps immediatly to
save time.

Cost to travel from Glisten to Sorel to Horosho to Trane:
Time = 3 weeks
Fuel Cr30,000
Berthing Costs Cr300
Life Support = Cr10,000 (based on crew only)
Crew Salary = Cr3,000
Maintenance = Cr3,000
Total Cost = Cr46,200

Cost to travel using drop tanks from Glisten to (empty hex) to Trane.
Time = 2 weeks
Fuel = Cr20,000
Drop Tanks = Cr30,250
Berthing costs = Cr100
Life Support = Cr6,500 (based on crew only)
Crew Salary = Cr2,000
Maintenance = Cr2,000
Total Cost = 60,850

It costs an extra Cr14,650 to save 1 week time.

The shipment must be pretty valuable or time is very important factor to
make this profitable.

Now, a trading corporation could have private ships that collect and reuse
the drop tanks. This could cut Cr30,000 off of each run saving the corp
about Cr15,000 each time.  (but then their's the cost of the ship that
collects the drop tanks and other related costs)

I think most free traders would opt to pick up mid/high passengers and cargo
to bring to Sorel, Horosho and Trane and make the Cr8,000 to Cr10,000 for
each passenger. Probably take 6 weeks to get to Trane, but possibly make
Cr150,000+ from passengers and cargo. (minus expenses of course). That cargo
that has to arrive in 2 weeks has got to be valuable to make the delivery
worth while. (Of course, a Far trader will probably come along that will
take the cargo for less, because it can afford the trip)

I think the only way drop tanks could really be used effectively is by large
corporations. The "little guy" just wouldn't be able to keep up with the
costs of drop tanks.

I don't see how drop tanks will make an impact on economics unless the cost
of drop tanks are greatly reduced. I don't think you can reduce the costs of
drop tanks much. The Cr30,250 cost for 270kl drop tanks is a "rental fee". I
figure the actual cost to make a drop tank is closer to Cr550,000 (figure
270kl hull, config irregular, armor 40 (to survive micrometeorites and
radiation) and 80% for mass production).
I can imagine a shuttle escort following the ship to jump to retrieve the
tanks and bring them back (don't want Cr550,000 to float off into deep
space). The "renter" of the drop tanks signs rental agreement. If the ship
jumps without dropping it's tanks then it can be subject to additional late
fees. (maybe the cost of the tanks per day, which could add up quick after a
couple of weeks in jump space)

The drop tank company would make a little money... but wouldn't get rich on
selling drop tanks. Consider the costs of maintaining shuttle escorts (plus
crew) the costs of repairing damaged tanks, and purchasing new tanks. If the
tanks were sold for any less than the company selling them would go
bankrupt.

A ship could be designed (our modified) to have collapsable tanks (as per
MT) and use drop tanks. A free trader could increase it's cargo hold from
1107kl to 1377kl. A ship transporting freight (at Cr1000 per ton) could make
an extra Cr20,000 but would pay Cr30,250 for the tanks, resulting in a net
loss of Cr10,250.

1kl of jump drive = 4 tons of cargo
1kl of jump drive's worth of fuel in drop tanks = Cr5,000/kl (rounded for
simple math, actual Cr5,062.50) + Cr10,000

drop tanks cost Cr5,000 for each kl of jump drive + Cr10,000

Below is the minimum price for 1 ton of cargo to pay for drop tanks

2kl drives = Cr2,500 (minimum price for 1 ton of cargo to pay for drop
tanks)
4kl drives = Cr1,875
10kl drives = Cr1,500
200kl drives = Cr1,262
1000kl drives = Cr1,252
70000kl drives = Cr1,250

*reference [a free trader has 4kl of drives]

Basically, a free trader would have to make a minimum of Cr1,875 per ton to
pay for the drop tanks, but the ship would still only make the same amount
of money by the end of the jump. The cargo MUST be worth more than
Cr1,875/ton to make a profit from using drop tanks and using the fuel tanks
for cargo.

How can the existance of drop tanks upset economics? It just isn't
profitable to use them.

On the subject of fuel tankers and jump stations:

Fuel tankers would be the "ultimate" drop tank.

A little inconvientient, the ships have to fly to the tanker instead of to
"anywhere" outside of 100 diameters.

Cr500/ton refined
Cr100/ton unrefined

What's going to be the tankers "surcharge"?
Maybe Cr1000/ton? (someone has to pay for the delivery of fuel to the
tanker, pay for the crew, pay for the ship, etc...)

Tankers and jump stations could operate as a replacement for drop tanks, but
the cost would still be about the same. Drop tanks just allow you to jump
from anywhere (anywhere normally allowed) instead of having to go to the
tanker/station.

On the subject of Xboats:

I think Xboats could use the xboat station in the manner of a drop-tanker.
It wouldn't speed up the network, (since theirs a waiting xboat ready to
launch), but it could provide more cargo space (data-storage space). I don't
think it would be very useful though.

On the subject of double-jumps.

What happens to the wear on jump drives if a ship makes several
"double-jumps"? (when after arriving in system from a jump from drop tanks,
the ship immediatly jumps again with the fuel in its fuel tanks). Would the
drives take more wear from "running hot" for several weeks straight? Would
the chance of misjump increase from not allowing the drives to "cool down"?
IMTU, double-jumping can increase the dangers of misjump. (+1 on mishap
table for each consecutive jump, 3 jumps in a row results in +2 on the
mishap table)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:24:22 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

<Sword Worlder wrote>
> I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE that we are now accepting applications from
> those shipbuilding firms who wish to display their wares.  This site
> will display your best one or two ship designs.  The requirements are
> that they be complete, meaning that there be at least:
>
> One exterior graphic view - line drawings through ray-traced 3D
> holographics accepted
>
> Deck Plans - 2D, 3D, 4D, your choice
>
> Design stats - any design system or level of detail accepted

Since I am not an artist, and I haven't tried my hand at deckplans, I would
be willing to design a ship for anyone willing to provide either/both.  I
prefer TL15 designs, but I'm willing to design at most any TL.  I've used
FFS v1/v2 and I am currently using Andrew Akin's spreadsheet.

I have a couple of designs for scout ships on the shelf.  A 100dton Mongoose
Class scout, the _Rikki Tikki Tavi_ (SL Disc with Turret).  A 500dton
Wolverine Class scout, currently without a name. (SL Wedge with 5 turrets).

I also have a 10,000dton Enchantress Class Luxury Liner  (SL Long Box), with
a breakdown (in dtons) of shops, lounges, restaurants, etc.

Thad K. Sneed  (TKS Yards)
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:45:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ad Astra by Wasteland Games

 "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

>According to their web site ( http://indigo.ie/~waste ) they  can
>be contacted by:

Thanks.

I was trying to get the contact details via the webpage last week when the
java on the site appeared to have a helping hand in blowing my hard disk
out...

I've avoided it since ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:26:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Jump Limits

If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an approximation
based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from the
mass.

So, anyone fancy a go at calculating the minimum gravity threshold after
which jump is safe?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that in some system 100D will be fine. In
others *maybe* 95D. In a really bad one 100+D

Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the limit closer?

Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:03:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Drop Tanks

Hmm.

Just taking a step back from your current debate - couldn't drop tanks be
likened to Concorde in the RW?

Expensive to produce (comparatively to standard aircraft)
Faster (longer range in Traveller terms)
Public failure (eg the Russian equivalent which failed at an Airshow)
Small number of adoptees (Air France and BA)

Concorde has been around 20-30 years now and I don't see a rush by
manufacturers or airlines to buy equivalents.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:15:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star Wars
>Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so powerful
>that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.

Who would you trust with it ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #403
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Monday, April 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 404



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: max accel
Boom!
Re: #Traveller Undernet
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Far Trader Economics
What does a starship cost?
Re:  Jump Limits
Re:  Jump Limits
Re: What does a starship cost?
Re: Jump Limits
Robots
Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
Re: Misjumps
Re: Misjumps
re: T5 Jump Masking
re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: max accel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:18:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be better
>to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only to
>fire it's energy weapons.

Because the space fighter could star high and use drones or other spotters
(even if it's own sensors aren't good enough) and nail the fighter from
below.

But there's a whole interesting set of tactics that need developing ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:35:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Boom!

On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, SD Mooney wrote:

> >Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star Wars
> >Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so powerful
> >that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.
> 
> Who would you trust with it ;-)

ME! ME! It's my turn to use the Super-Weapon!  ;)

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:36:26 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: #Traveller Undernet

In a message dated 4/5/99 6:49:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
websuz@worldnet.att.net writes:
After much snipping...
<< 
 If you need help actually getting online, email me privately after you have
 selected and installed a client and I'll be happy to work with you.  >>
Ok,thanx Suz...I'll let you know when I figure the beasty out...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 16:51:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Just taking a step back from your current debate - couldn't drop tanks be
> likened to Concorde in the RW?
> 
> Expensive to produce (comparatively to standard aircraft)
> Faster (longer range in Traveller terms)
> Public failure (eg the Russian equivalent which failed at an Airshow)
> Small number of adoptees (Air France and BA)
> 
> Concorde has been around 20-30 years now and I don't see a rush by
> manufacturers or airlines to buy equivalents.

The Concorde also requires extravagantly long runways, sucks down fuel
like a '69 Plymouth Road Runner Superbird and (critically for most
airports)is enormously noisy.

The interior is cramped, the tickets are hideously expensive, and
consequently it has a hard time attracting passengers. (My mother in law
flew the Concorde...once. She was shuttling some extremely
time-sensitive documents to the London home office of her company, from
New York, and basically flying her there on the Concorde was the only
way to keep a very big deal from costing a lot of money. The concorde
just _happened to be scheduled when they needed it...I don't remember
why but there was some stupid reason they couldn't just fax them) She
was _very_ glad the flight time was a short as it was, she said she'd
rather have flown a commuter turboprop...they're more comfortable. She
didn't mind getting the weekend in London, though ;-)

The better Trav equivalents are Jump-6 ships.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:04:17 -0500
From: meow@advancenet.net
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

I will also do designs for those wanting to exhibit, I'm not anything 
even vaguely hallucinating an artist, but I do a fair job of designing 
most any ship, using High Guard or GT preferably

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 00:19:17 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: Far Trader Economics

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>You're missing four things:

>(1) As has been pointed out, you should be making twice as much per high-
>passenger.  This by itself closes your revenue short-fall from 19KCr to 
>9KCr.

That was a copying error and the total was correct. So no extra income.

>(2) 24 jumps a year is too few.  Canon aside, you don't need to spend a 
>whole week knocking about port looking for freight and passengers.  35 jumps 
>a year is definitely the max, but something in between helps close your 
>revenue short-fall further.

Jump masking eats away at any time saving in port - most systems are
automatically masked if you go by the stellar types in MT Imperial Encyclopedia.
I am beginning to suspect that Jump masking is going to make it much harder to
make a profit. It should also make freight rates to masked systems higher.

(aside : jump masking, no life support costs, & self maintenance of ships also
opens the door to piracy a little wider than with previous versions of
traveller)

>(3) Skills!  Your crew should have Merchant skill to push up your freight 
>rate, savoir-faire to push up passenger ticket prices, Market Analysis and 
>Economics to predict where above average freight and passenger rates can be 
>found, and Area Knowledge to find those juicy speculative cargos.

Fair enough. I don't see how this will be enough to offset the costs for a
Beowulf.

>(4) The Beowulf has got to be the hardest ship to make money in ever 
>designed.  Try an Empress Marava coupled with some long-distance trading 
>strategies and tell me what you find.  The biggest problem I had in 
>designing these rules was in how to keep clever players and highly skilled 
>characters from making too _much_ money.

So you are saying that Beowulf is a broken ship as far as Far Trader is
concerned?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 00:53:08 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

Steve Daniels wrote:

>The short story is that the a Beowulf Free trader on average, theoretically of
>course, will generate an Annual Profit of 808,513 Cr.

>Finally, free trading is profitable, on the theoretical average anyway.

>Details below.

>John Buston wrote:

>> I have been trying to make the Far Trader economics work for a Beowulf Free
>> Trader, but cannot get the figures to come out anywhere near a profit.
>>
>> I tried to work out the income & expenditure for a single jump, with 100% load,
>> and came up with:
>>
>> Income per jump:
>>
>>   3 High Passengers:   3*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>>   6 Middle Passengers: 6*1750   = 10.5 KCr
>>   20 Low Passengers:   20*175   =  3.5 KCr
>>   63.5 DT of Freight:  63.5*700 = 44.5 KCr

>You're only using the 'Average Price' which is just one factor in calculating the
>Current Freight Price.

> [detail snipped]

>So a max value load will be:
>Cargo: 1313 Cr * 63.5 Tons = 83,775.5 Cr
>High Passage:  6300 Cr * 3 = 18,900 Cr
>Medium Passage: 3150 Cr * 6 = 18,900 Cr
>Low Passage: 315 Cr * 20 = 6300 Cr
>Total: 127,875.5 Cr

>A least value load would be:
>Cargo: 16700.5 Cr
>High Passage: 4,200 Cr
>Medium Passage: 4,200 Cr
>Low Passage: 1,400 Cr
>Total: 26,500.5 Cr

>The median of that range is 77,188 Cr per jump.
>Assuming 24 trips per year: 1,852,512 Cr

>Several things will increase your chances of greater profits, primarily Merchant
>skill, but also taking Special Handling Cargoes and searching for freight for
>which there is no direct route to the destination.


>> Expenditure per jump:
>>
>>   Mortgage = 58 KCr

>You pay this per month and not per jump.

No. A GT Beowulf costs 29MCr. Mortgage per month is 29/240 = 120 MCr/ month, or
60MCr/Jump. 
(58Mcr was based on my independant calculation of the price and was therefore
generous).

>>   Salaries =  5 KCr

>Also a per month expenditure.

No. Engineer Salary = 200*lowest PR (12+) per month = minimum of 24000/year.

= 1KCr+/Jump for an Engineer.

I had assumed similar or greater amounts for the pilot and astrogator and a
lower amount for the steward. Though I found this hard to see on the GT salary
chart.

I had hand waved at 1.25KCr salary per person per jump.

I could accept lower say 4KCr but 2.5KCr seems harsh. Please show details.

>>   Fuel     =  2 KCr

>Cheapest rate is 350 Cr/ton, 7,000 Cr.

Oh. I assumed I could get it at 100Cr/DT unrefined and run it through my fuel
processor. I couldn't see this in Far Trader, but I had assumed it had not been
ruled out.

This makes the sums worse.

>> Maintenance contribution = 1 KCr

> Also per month.

No. 29Mcr/1000 = 2900Kcr/year = 2.4KCr/month = 1.2KCr/jump (I had rounded DOWN
for simplicity).

>>   Berthing = 20 KCr

>This is 20Cr * Hull size, for the first 6 days, or 4,000 Cr.

It is? GT says 100Cr per ship DT. The intro to the Far Trader bit on berthing
says that its rules average to the same as GT, and I hadn't double checked to
make sure that this was true.

[snippage of detail it will take me some time to analyse]

I will recalculate using your figures and repost, when I get the time, which may
not be until next weekend.

Note that I haven't yet included things like my insurance, and depreciation. 
These would obviously increase the cost still further. What values would you
suggest for these?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 19:05:28 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: What does a starship cost?

What does a starship cost?

Any Traveller knows what a starship costs to buy; but
how many know what the cost is to a shipyard?  Like
airplane factories, shipyards are run as economically
streamlined as possible; this means demand must be
balanced against costs, manpower, resources, and
shipyard usage.  After all, an idle shipyard is a waste of
time, money, and resources.

The typical shipyard must be at least partially used most
of the time to be feasible.  For some wild guesses, I'll
say it has to be at least 25% busy all year 'round.  For
some shipyards (like Mora) this could equate to huge
orders all of the time, if you believe Trillion Credit
Squadrons applies to the 3rd Imperium -- but that's
another issue entirely.

Why be constantly busy?  Because your labor force
generally prefers a year-long job, in order to earn money.
In the case of robotic factories, I'll say you don't get your
money's worth of robot investments unless you run them
most of the time... a credit today is worth more than a
credit tomorrow, and rival worlds would be happy to
take your business...

The main point about the labor force is that (handwave)
it ends up costing you the same amount of money.  When
you pass the information age and replace your workers
with automated factories, you still pay the same costs (now
inflated due to a higher TL) per labor unit.  What you get is
better technology at those costs.

How much do workers cost?  I'll say (handwave) Cr10,000
per labor unit per year.  And here's where things get very fuzzy
to me.  How many people does it take to build a starship?  This
is new territory for me, but I figure there will be a different labor
crew focusing on each part.

Wait!  What about "off-the-shelf" components?

Okay, I'm a believer in modular designs, even though most of
Earth's industry has trouble standardizing across product lines
for things like automobiles and airplanes.  However, I wonder
sometimes if standardized jump drives (for example) are really
made in advance, or if the shipyard just has plug-and-chug plans
for them.  There's no economic benefit to mass production unless
your production facility has a chokehold on some very lucrative
markets... in general, I think most starports don't have lucrative
markets for starships.  I haven't done many numbers, but I'd
like to see some, to see where I need to change my assumptions.
This is an exercise for the reader.

Anyhow, labor costs come in, from the off-the-shelf "please
solder here" instructions, to custom-built "let's tweak the governor
there to make it 0.1% more efficient".  Labor costs will probably
amount to 1/4 the retail value of the ship.  Hard profit may account
for another 1/2, while 1/4 of the cost will be from parts.  HELP!
I have NO CLUE if these ratios are ANYWHERE NEAR
CORRECT!

Okay now, where are we?  Ah yes, a simple 100-ton Scout.
If you bought a brand new one for Cr12,000,000, where does
all that cash go?  If we assume Cr3,000,000 go to labor, and
the ship takes 9 months to build, that may be Cr400,000 per month
for labor alone.  If we assume there's one dude per displacement
ton working on the ship, then that's 100 guys at Cr4000 per
month apiece.  Cr36,000 per year... a great salary, and reasonable
for the engineering tasks (and is of course the average between
the bigwigs and the grunts).  But 100 guys?  Gimme a break!  What
would they be working on?  Union beer bashes?

Well, let's get 5 guys working on the jump drive.  Let's have
another 5 on the power plant, and another 5 on the maneuver
drive.  Next, the hull.  Lots of gravitic-related things going on there,
so we'll have a team for the grav plates, another team for the shell,
and a team to tie it all together.  Say another 15 total.  Now for life
support, say 5 for the systems and 5 to put the rooms in.  Put 5
people to work on the ship controls, and 5 people total for the sensor
installation.  We're up to 50 people.

What's left?  Well, the fuel systems might be 5 people.
Avionics or the computer might be another 5.  Weapon systems
could be another 5.  Now we're almost done.  Add 3 teams of
inspectors (overkill) and 5 managers and you have 85 people,
at least 20 of which will be getting twice the normal salary.  So
there's your Cr300,000 per month.

You want to trim that number down?  First, these tasks are
not all parallelizable (that's one reason the ship takes months
to build, eh?), so there aren't 85 people working on the ship
all at one time.  However, I'd probably pay these people as
if they were really good starship engineers (level 5's: Cr6000
per month?), so the labor cost is defensible at

    Labor cost: Cr3000 per dton per month of construction

As I handwaved earlier, parts will cost Cr1000 per dton also,
and the retail markup is at least 50% of labor + parts... and
might be 100% ... or more!

But for my assumptions, a 100t starship that takes 9 months
to build would therefore cost:

   Labor: Cr4000 * 100 dtons * 9 months = Cr3,600,000
   Parts: Cr3,600,000
   Profit: Cr7,200,000

In other words, the cost of construction of a starship is

   Cr8000 per dton per month

and the price tag is twice that.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 18:10:00 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re:  Jump Limits

>>>>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:26:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Jump Limits

If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an
approximation
based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from
the
mass.

So, anyone fancy a go at calculating the minimum gravity threshold
after
which jump is safe?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that in some system 100D will be fine.
In
others *maybe* 95D. In a really bad one 100+D

Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the limit
closer?

Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?


Dom
>>>>
An alternative is to remember that all things Jump related are VOLUME
based instead of mass based.  Thus you need to have 100 dtons of ship
minimum, and the 100 diameter limit is based on the VOLUME of the
planet/star/body.
Just another thought process coming from left field...
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:19:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re:  Jump Limits

Joseph Kimball writes:

> If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an
> approximation
> based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from
> the
> mass.

100d probably _isn't_ directly gravity based; if you assume it is mass-based,
100D only works if one assumes tidal force, not gravity.  In the case of tidal
force, it works out to a tidal force of about 1.6 x 10^-9
newtons/kilogram/meter.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:28:12 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: What does a starship cost?

In a message dated 4/5/99 8:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
washi@metronet.com writes:

<< 
 In other words, the cost of construction of a starship is
 
    Cr8000 per dton per month
 
 and the price tag is twice that.
 
 -Rob >>
A shipyards other *major* income source is probably maintenace...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 01:40:55 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Domonic Mooney wrote:
 
>If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an approximation
>based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from the
>mass.

>So, anyone fancy a go at calculating the minimum gravity threshold after
>which jump is safe?

>I suppose what I'm getting at is that in some system 100D will be fine. In
>others *maybe* 95D. In a really bad one 100+D

>Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the limit closer?

Much Further...

>Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?

[ We did some of this about this time last year :) ]

Basically, to go with Canon you have to work with rate of change of gravity
intensity, rather than absolute intensity.

If you try to use absolute gravity intensity (Earth standard) then:

solid planets:

 61 D Mercury
 96 D Venus
100 D Earth
 62 D Mars
 27 D Pluto

gas giants:

 160 D Jupiter
 103 D Saturn
  95 D Uranus
 105 D Neptune

Stars:

 528 D        Sun
 57,735 D     Earth size White Dwarf (1 solar mass) - 8.3Gs at 100D!
 43,000,000 D minimum mass Neutron Star (20km diameter - 1.4 Solar Masses) - 4.8
million G at 100D!
 4.5E12 D     minimum mass black hole (6km diameter - 3 solar masses) - 100
million G at 100D!
 3.7 D        "small" red giant (1E12 km diameter - 1 solar mass)


Formula is SQRT(object mass in earth masses)*earth Diameter/object diameter*100
[I hope]
Base Figures from: Realm of the Universe [4th Ed], Abel, Morrison, Wolfe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:52:46 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Robots

I remember seeing a spreadsheet on Robots being available. Anyone know where
that is?
Does the spreadsheet allow for the design of extra-large robots (i.e. mining
and loaders)?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 20:14:15 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts

Wow, I hadn't thought about healthcare in space!  I suppose
spaceborne hospitals and the like would be expensive and
rather large affairs, and very useful for research and people
who have excellent insurance...

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 21:12:36 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

>
> > Don't forget the possible "ship destroyed" result, which I take to mean
> > that it never comes out of jump space.  Now if the ship isn't actually
> > destroyed, it's just stuck in jump space and the people aboard have as
> > long to live as they have life support.  As I recall, the expected
> > duration of jump -- even misjump -- is known to the ship at the moment
> > of jump, so the officers at least will know that they're never getting
> > out.  It would make for a very dark scenario.
>
> Actually, no. there are other misjump possibilities, ranging from simple
> failure to jump, with possible damage to the drives, to the ND6
> displacement in  a random direction to destruction of the ship.
>
> The majority of misjumps, however are minor variations in the time of
> jump or the final exit location. So yes, the ships officers will know
> the expected length of jump duration, but it can vary...meaning that the
> scenario above is converted into a race against time and air supply...

I reiterate my first question "What EXACTLY is a misjump?"

There's a WHOLE bunch of things that can go wrong with a jump.  Are they all
misjumps?  Or is a misjump only the specific mishap where you get flung off
to an unknown parsec?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:35:43 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

>There's a WHOLE bunch of things that can go wrong with a jump.  Are they
all
>misjumps?  Or is a misjump only the specific mishap where you get flung off
>to an unknown parsec?


IMO, a misjump is any jump that has something go wrong.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:04:43 -0700
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

It's a little hard to figure out what happens in various exotic
cases, though. Clearly if you try to jump to Alpha-C while jjupiter is in
the way you precipitate out, and emerge after a week next to Jupiter. 
If when you get to Alpha C an asteroid is in your way you emerge after a
week at the asteroid rather than your target planet. But what happens if
the object moves? If the asteroid isn't in your way when you leave for 
Alpha C but would be in the way at your time of arrival, where do you exit?
How about if Jupiter isn't in the way when you leave but is when you exit?
How about if somethign gets in the way halfway? 

To give a more conecrete example: I'm jumping to a system two parsecs
away. In the empty hex in between us is the evil Zhodani with his 
million-ton asteroid ship. If it's on the line between me and my destination
I emerge after a week at the destination.

What if 
(a) it's on the line when I depart, but moves out of the way two days
after I leave?
(b) it's ont he line when I depart, but moves out of the way six days
after I leave?
(c) it's not on the line when I depart but moves into the way two days after
I leave?
(d) it's not on the line when I depart but moves into the way six days
after I leave?

it's hard to come up with a consistent version (unless, for example, you
assume actual travel in jumpspace is instantaneous while entering and
existing takes 3.5 days each...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:13:08 -0700
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Drop Tanks

>Just taking a step back from your current debate - couldn't drop tanks be
>likened to the concorde?

Or to real-world drop tanks - which are pretty much a military-only item.
Carried tanks could extend the ranges of jetliners by 20%, which is not at
all negligible, but don't seem to be popular. Similar, in rocket design,
our current rockets in some sense operate with drop tanks, and there's an
enormous effort to develop single-stage-to-orbit vehicles with no 
disposaable components, for perceived likely price savings even if the
vehicles are much bigger than their drop tank counterparts.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:54:35 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Most ships have J1, J2, or J3 drives for two reasons:
(1) The cost of J4-J6 drive engines
(2) The fuel capacity required for long jumps.

The MAJOR issue of drop tanks is not about the extended range
by adding drop tanks to current designs, but rather the ability to
design ships with no internal jump fuel.  Provided that the drop tanks
must be SMALER than the ships they service to keep the 100D
issue out of the equasion... reusable, generic 99 ton drop tanks
could service ANY new (i.e. post drop tank technology) ship design
under 1000 tons.  Designs of 200+ tons could even use multiple
tanks.

> Just taking a step back from your current debate - couldn't
> drop tanks be likened to the concorde?

They are NOT like real world drop tanks  - real world vehicles
continue to consume fuel for the full duration of their flight.  Rocket
designs are closer, and prove how different things would be...
Like Bruce pointed out, our current rockets, in a sense, operate
on drop tanks.  While there is an effort to develop craft without
disposable tanks, the effort would not be considered if the current
"drop tanks" were completely reusable... which Traveller drops
tanks appear to be.

Reusable leads to generic standards and common designs.
Provided you accept the use of drop tanks, what arguments
could be made to prevent this?

Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:02:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

>>But if the aerospace capable fighter can draw the air fighter to the upper
>>reaches of the atmosphere, (for example), the air fighter is ppush its
>>parameters. If an aerospace fighter enters the atmosphere, it is still
>>within its parameters, even if it has limitations that an air fighter
>>doesn't.
>
> Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be better
> to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only to
> fire it's energy weapons.

Except that from the viewpoint of a space fighter, you are "next to"
that feature, not "behind" it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #404
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 405



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Far Trader Economics
Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: max accel
re: What does a starship cost?
Re: Misjumps
Re: Misjumps
IRC
Re: IRC
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: IRC
Re: IRC
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Aurora  (was max accel) 
Re: max accel 
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Drop tanks (was: Garbage)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:22:02 -0700
From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Far Trader Economics

>(4) The Beowulf has got to be the hardest ship to make money in ever 
>designed.  

If the Beowulf can't make money with the given freight/passenger prices,
then what ship can? Does a bigger ship do better? Presumably those prices
are set so that *someone* is making money on jump-1 freight...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 20:23:18 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts

> From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
> Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
> 
> Wow, I hadn't thought about healthcare in space!  I suppose
> spaceborne hospitals and the like would be expensive and
> rather large affairs, and very useful for research and people
> who have excellent insurance...

Maybe they bring higher tech medicine to less developed areas (both
inside and outside their own state), and help deal with epidemics and
large-scale things (e.g., earthquakes).  I think that the UN or WHO had
a ship that did that in the 1960s -- or maybe the 1960s was just the
last time I thought about it.  

The military applications are obvious, of course.  While your fleet's
ships can each handle casualties, it's probably more efficient to get
them out of the sickbays of the battleships and cruisers (where they're
likely just in medical low berth, anyway), and get them some real care. 
I see hospital ships as part of the batch of fleet tender vessels --
with the tankers, the missile supply ships, the repair ships, etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 20:39:30 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

> From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking
> 
> It's a little hard to figure out what happens in various exotic
> cases, though. Clearly if you try to jump to Alpha-C while jjupiter is in

That's only because you misunderstand basic jump concepts, as your
example shows:

> To give a more conecrete example: I'm jumping to a system two parsecs
> away. In the empty hex in between us is the evil Zhodani with his 
> million-ton asteroid ship. If it's on the line between me and my destination
> I emerge after a week at the destination.
> What if 
> (a) it's on the line when I depart, but moves out of the way two days
> after I leave?

It doesn't make any difference where obstacles might be.  When you jump,
you're not travelling in a straight line through normal space.  If
you're in normal space at point A, and there is an object at point B,
and on the other side of that object is point C, you can jump directly
from A to C.  You don't pass through B, because B is in normal space,
and you're in jump space, which doesn't correspond to normal space.  

As far as we know, there are no other objects in jump space.  We can't
see anything in jump space, nor get results from other sensors.  There
are no collisions in jump space. There is no communication through jump
space.  Even if your whole fleet is jumping with you, you are all out of
touch with each other until you reemerge in normal space.  

(The hex map just represents jump space, anyway; it doesn't represent
normal space.)

> the way you precipitate out, and emerge after a week next to Jupiter. 

Now precipitating out of jump space is a different matter.  If you
program your jump to bring you out of jump space and back into normal
space at a point that is too close to an object, you'll precipitate out
of jump space at a safe distance from the object.  That's true no matter
what the object is; if it's in or near your point of return to normal
space at the time of your return, you'll come out of jump space 100
diameters away from it.

Going into jump space too close to an object has a different result. 
You run the risk of misjumping -- not jumping at all, being destroyed,
or going into a jump that puts you back in normal space in a more or
less random place and time.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:08:16 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

<<Snip of Bruce's example...and other stuff>>

> It doesn't make any difference where obstacles might be.  When you jump,
> you're not travelling in a straight line through normal space.  If
> you're in normal space at point A, and there is an object at point B,
> and on the other side of that object is point C, you can jump directly
> from A to C.  You don't pass through B, because B is in normal space,
> and you're in jump space, which doesn't correspond to normal space.

I think Bruce was referring to something from T5, called "Jump Masking."
This is it from a T5 post made earlier...

"A jump must be planned before it is executed; this
planning is the duty of the astrogator. Planning a jump involved plotting a
straight line course from the jump point to the breakout point.
 Restrictions. Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body
(star, gas giant, world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than
itself.
 If a plotted course intersects a 100 diameter sphere around any
object larger than the ship, the ship is 'precipitated out' of jump space."

Hope this helps...
Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+
- ----- Original Message ----- > As far as we know, there are no other objects
in jump space.  We can't
> see anything in jump space, nor get results from other sensors.  There
> are no collisions in jump space. There is no communication through jump
> space.  Even if your whole fleet is jumping with you, you are all out of
> touch with each other until you reemerge in normal space.
>
> (The hex map just represents jump space, anyway; it doesn't represent
> normal space.)
>
> > the way you precipitate out, and emerge after a week next to Jupiter.
>
> Now precipitating out of jump space is a different matter.  If you
> program your jump to bring you out of jump space and back into normal
> space at a point that is too close to an object, you'll precipitate out
> of jump space at a safe distance from the object.  That's true no matter
> what the object is; if it's in or near your point of return to normal
> space at the time of your return, you'll come out of jump space 100
> diameters away from it.
>
> Going into jump space too close to an object has a different result.
> You run the risk of misjumping -- not jumping at all, being destroyed,
> or going into a jump that puts you back in normal space in a more or
> less random place and time.
>
> --Glenn
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:13:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star Wars
> Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so powerful
> that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.

That just came up on RASFS. Consider the effects of trying to turn the
"moon" quickly....

a=4*pi^2*r/t^2
a = acceleration (meters/sec^2)
r = radius (meters)
t = period of rotation

For the Moon r=1738000. Let's say you are willing to wait 10 minutes
(worst case) to be able to aim at something. That makes t=20 min = 1200
sec.

a = 4*pi^2 * 1738000/1200^2
a = 47.6

So you'll have an acceleration of close to 5 gees at the surface. Oops!

If we restrict turning rate to the point where the acceleration is
only 1/6th g, then it'll take 2.8 *hours* to swing 180 degrees. 

I think we can dodge that pretty easily.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:40:41 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: re: What does a starship cost?

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 19:05:28 -0500
>From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
>Subject: What does a starship cost?.
>
>What does a starship cost?
>
>
>But for my assumptions, a 100t starship that takes 9 months
>to build would therefore cost:
>
> . Labor: Cr4000 * 100 dtons * 9 months = Cr3,600,000
>  Parts: Cr3,600,000
> Profit: Cr7,200,000

>In other words, the cost of construction of a starship is
>
>  Cr8000 per dton per month
>
>and the price tag is twice that.
>
>- -Rob
>
>------------------------------
There are a few more items you may want to include before taking
that profit.
Allocation of overhead costs, such as 
Cost of a place to build it
Cost to power the building site
Cost to market the ship, such as advertising, salepeople salaries,
   market researchers, communication staff, artists
Cost to design the ship
Cost of doing business such as licenses, taxes, inspection permits, legal
Cost of workers tools, furniture, computers, communication and equipment
Cost of administrative staff, executive staff, accountants, janitors, etc
Financing costs, interest, bank fees

Alot of these costs would be fixed costs and some are variable, but the more 
ships you produced the more these costs could be spread out
These would all have to be taken  into account before determing your net profit

Thorinn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:47:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps

In mail you write:

> I reiterate my first question "What EXACTLY is a misjump?"
>
> There's a WHOLE bunch of things that can go wrong with a jump.  Are they all
> misjumps?  Or is a misjump only the specific mishap where you get flung off
> to an unknown parsec?

I'd say that all malfunctions of the jump drive that result in the ship
leaving normal space are "misjumps". If you don't leave normal space
it's a "failure". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:39:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps

In mail you write:

> Don't forget the possible "ship destroyed" result, which I take to mean
> that it never comes out of jump space.  Now if the ship isn't actually
> destroyed, it's just stuck in jump space and the people aboard have as
> long to live as they have life support.  As I recall, the expected
> duration of jump -- even misjump -- is known to the ship at the moment
> of jump, so the officers at least will know that they're never getting
> out.  It would make for a very dark scenario.  I don't think I'd inflict
> it on the players, unless I thought they'd enjoy it.  

Well, consider that it *might* be one of those things where there's
enough life support for fewer people than are on the ship. *That* will
get ugly. 

I also seem to recall at least one version of Traveller that a misjump
table where the external and internal durations of a jump could be
different. 

So you come out of a misjump after a week ship's time only to find
yourself in the *4th* Imperium. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 22:26:09 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: IRC

Hey guys, Silly me forgot and deleted the Trav IRC channel.
Please help me....

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:29:03 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: IRC

#traveller

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  

>Hey guys, Silly me forgot and deleted the Trav IRC channel.
>Please help me....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 00:22:09 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

On 04/05/99 at 07:04 PM,  bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>it's hard to come up with a consistent version (unless, for example,
>you assume actual travel in jumpspace is instantaneous while entering
>and existing takes 3.5 days each...)

IMTU, travel is instantaneous once the ship enters jumpspace, but it
takes +/-168 hours for the "jump bubble" to collapse allowing the
ship to emerge.  

If that asteroid/planet/whatever is masking the route at the instant
of jump, then that is where the ship will emerge one week later.
The obstruction will *usually* have moved away along it's normal
vector by millions of km.  So, even *finding* what caused the
premature exit might be a difficult task.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 22:40:15 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: IRC

Tanks.....

Shawn Campbell wrote:

> #traveller
>
> Shawn Campbell
> electric-stitch@w-link.net
> IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)
>
> >Hey guys, Silly me forgot and deleted the Trav IRC channel.
> >Please help me....



- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 00:58:22 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: IRC

On 04/05/99 at 10:29 PM,  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> said:

>#traveller

>>Hey guys, Silly me forgot and deleted the Trav IRC channel.
>>Please help me....

Just in case someone needs to find a server try...

http://servers.undernet.org/

Eris


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 02:50:45 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

I suggest recalculating the figures, after separating monthy and annual expenses
from jump/trip expenses.

As Jim MacLean mentioned, you can have more jumps per year than 24.
And by having some of the calendar related expenses tied to number of
jumps, you unnnecessarily confuse the issue.  So I suggest, calculate
average income and expenditures per jump, then aggregate that to an
annual rate, then factor in annual costs such as mortgage, etc.


John Buston wrote:

> >>   Fuel     =  2 KCr
>
> >Cheapest rate is 350 Cr/ton, 7,000 Cr.
>
> Oh. I assumed I could get it at 100Cr/DT unrefined and run it through my fuel
> processor. I couldn't see this in Far Trader, but I had assumed it had not been
> ruled out.

Well, you didn't spell that out, so thats fine.

> >This is 20Cr * Hull size, for the first 6 days, or 4,000 Cr.
>
> It is? GT says 100Cr per ship DT. The intro to the Far Trader bit on berthing
> says that its rules average to the same as GT, and I hadn't double checked to
> make sure that this was true.

GT:FT p. 66  Where FT speaks to the issue, ignore GT.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:32:43 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel) 

> << aka external burning ramjets >>
> 
> Actually it's more like an inside-out rocket engine.There are 2 
types-linear 
> aerospike and axial aerospike.I'll hunt down a link if you'd like but the 
> last time I looked the site was down.

Hmm...  My Jane's Advanced Tactical Fighters computer game aircraft 
database/resource thingamagig conjectures that it uses a "pulse wave 
detonation" engine of some kind, though everything in that entry (mentioned 
as alone being dubious in fact in that presentation) is mere supposition.  
Pulse wave detonation certainly sounds familiar, but isn't ringing any 
bells...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:32:47 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel 

> >uncanonical) mentioned in the SoM.  The general capabilities of EMS sensors
> >are well established.  There is NO problem between space and atmospheric
> >interaction.  If you don't agree w/ that, then your problem isn't with me, 
but
> >with Traveller.
> >
> 
> I do not recall Traveller defining the range, detection, ect capabilities of
> the EMS sensor IN the atmosphere.  I am not about to state what is posible

Its clear when you look at vehicle designs and vehicle design rules.  It's 
more than possible the differences are fudged over due to practical issues 
(though only till FF&S), but the capabilities of a Trepida grav tank are 
pretty well established in every version.

> in space as I have no experience in space sensors.  I do know some of the
> limits on atmospheric sensor as I have worked with them.  If Traveller's
> claims are plaonly imposible, passive optical reception over the horison for
> example, I do have a problem with it.

The how is just window dressing.  I don't give a hoot.  Maybe the SoM did go 
beyond reason.  It does in other areas IMO.  What EMS sensors do is plain, 
though. 

> >Don't tell me about it!  I didn't design the sensor systems, nor their
> >capabilities.  There are sensors gurus on teh list far more qualified than 
you
> >and they've never complained about them.  The point is that those are the
> >capabilities established by canon.  Do you understand?
> > 
> 
> Yes, I understand your point but just exactly where in canon does it state
> the sensor threshold limits?  I do not recall that stat in CT?  I also do

Well one, canon is usually defined as at least everything by GDW (or that's 
my definition anyways), w/ the 3rd party stuff coming along the way.  That 
means
canon does not end w/ CT.  I have very little CT (nor desire it, really), but 
I'm sure the design of the Trepida includes EMS sensors in any version 
(excepting G:T).

> not recall any abjustments for atmosophere type, depth, storms, thermal
> masking, camofage, defilade, ect.

Check the vehicle stats for the Trepida and couple them with the combat rules 
in the version of your choice (especially pre G:T).  It's pretty clear 
(explicit in TNE and MT).

> >The whole point of any of that was so you could see a combat between a 
space
> >fighter and an atmosphere fighter.  You keep claiming the atmosphere 
fighter
> >will win, but until you design and astmophere fighter and airframed space
> >fighter, and are satisfied they are both "optimum" designs, and then put 
them
> >in a combat situation, your claims mean nothing.  When you run a combat,
> >you're likely to see the space fighter wins.  You keep arguing about it, 
but
> >don't do the thing to prove it.  Talk is cheap.  You use GURPS.  Use GURPS.
> 
> Neither have you, so how do you claim that the space fighter will win?  You
> make the assumption based on other people's comments.  I make mine based on
> design rules and physical limits within the real world.

You did see hte part where I said I've seen in many games where a TL-12 
Wildbat (much less effective than a TL-15 Rampart) beats TL-9 aircraft, 
didn't you?  It happened in the course of my campaigns already.  I can 
provide you with the TNE stats if you want.  The game rules say the space 
fighter will win.  This whole thread has concluded that the space fighter 
will win.  You remain unconvinced though... i'm not going to rehash 
everything said by everyone.  Read especially what Shadow (aka Leonard 
Erickson) has wrote, though.  

> If that were so the RPGs are absurd.  I do not consider them so.  I do not
> consider any intelectual discorse complete without merit.  We learn from
> everything we do, if we are wise.

That's why i'm asking you to run it in a game, using GURPS.  I'm fairly sure 
you'll see the same results, anyways.  Don't need to mess up your campaign.  
Will it cause the sky to fall if you play the aircraft and the GM plays the 
space fighter? There is an existing G:T rampart already.   It's fine w/ me.  
You only need a GURPS TL-8 (?) fighter to duplicate the original topic of 
this thread.  Take it up to a GTL-12 atmosphere fighter.  There should be one 
somewhere, shouldn't there?  Plenty of GV2 designs that have to be floating 
around the web.  Asking a G:T/GV2'er would be more helpful than me in your 
specific needs to see what I see w/ TNE.

> Also, I stated that a RPG based on space craft might not have a good air
> craft design system because it saw no need for the detailed mechanics. This

And it was explicitly shown that everythign you mentioned is in FF&S (and/or 
the TNE rules).  Everything.  There is a good aircraft design system (though 
it doesn't *perfectly* replicate the Real World) and mechanics to operate it 
under.

> We need to better define the test before we go any farther.  What is to be
> the design limit?  I'd say money.  Next we compare not two but three
> vehicals.  One air fighter, one space fighter, and one grave tank all of the
> same or lower tech level all costing the same or less money.

As you yourself have said, things are rarely equal.  If they are, someone 
isn't doing their job.  That's probably the best way to test it though.  The 
basic point is that an airframed spacecraft is an overvaluable and 
overcapable aircraft of the same TL.  It likely costs alot more than the pure 
aircraft but is a helluva lot more capable.  That's what this thread proved.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:32:42 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

> You're missing four things:

<snip>

> The biggest problem I had in 
> designing these rules was in how to keep clever players and highly skilled 
> characters from making too _much_ money.

At least one useful thing has come out of this thread (many, really.  I'm 
quite pleased with its progress, just like w/ the "Max Accel" which i was 
dubious about, at first).  What you and Christopher Thrash and others have 
indicated about Far Tarder has made a sale for me.  I just got to get to the 
FLGS (and postpone the immediate upgrade to my paintball gun). 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:32:40 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop tanks (was: Garbage)

> From where I stand, a war can really affect PCs.  It will also
> take over the timeline.

That does not necessarily lead to a war.  Now who's depending on future 
events, anyways?  You say that your campaigns will be ruined, or the 
suspension of disbelief.  Any of your players on this list?  It'd be very 
intesting to ask them some questions...

> >As you have said yourself, there are numerous handwaves for that.  The best
> >of which is that the fuel isn't guzzled instantly.  It's all gone by the 
end
> >of jump, sure, but not instantly.
> 
> Which makes drop tanks impossible.

You can't be that forgetful, can you (or are u doing it on purpose)?  
Remember where this thread really got rolling?  If you can't, it's up to you 
to go back and look.  I'll quote if you really need me to, though.

> >One of the very authors of Far Trader says it won't have the catastrophic
> >effect you claim.
> 
> He also mentioned that he didn't write the section in question.  It
> may be that they don't have as big a change as I think, but,
> as I said to Chris, I don't see how they can't.

And the one who did says the same thing!  And, of course, despite his 
detailed analysis (w/ numbers... FAR above the WAGs and opinions both of us 
have, 
to say nothing about him being an economist and you not, which is another 
matter), you still "don't see how they can't" OR you just plain don't want 
to, which is becoming quite apparent.  Marc Miller and/or Loren Wiseman could 
tell you and you wouldn't believe them either (not that I make any claims on 
their opinions).  You're right and everyone else is wrong?  Is that it?  Do 
you care to design a drop tank and non dropped tank equiped ship, and follow 
with an economic analysis (rules up to you, i'd assume G:T and Far Trader), 
to prove it?

> > In fact, I see an interesting discussion in rec.games.frp.gurps
> >about
> >this very topic where drop tanks are explicitly said to be an option!
> 
> Making them an optional rule is exactly how I think they should
> be handled.  As to how they affect Free Trader, maybe the

Mentioned as "an option in Far Trader," not as an "optional rule."  There is 
a big difference beyond semantics there.

> >I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not deliberately
> >misrepresenting Far Trader, though.
> 
> Good idea.  Even better would have been to not raise the issue
> and then pretend you aren't so you can get a little accusation
> in without taking responsibility.   That is the sort of thing
> I'm talking about in my previous post.

I don't mince words, David.  I say what I mean and I mean what I say.   If I 
thought you're deliberately doing something as character-dubious as that, I'd 
have no reason at all to reply to you with anything but flames, if at all.  
I'd consider you, at best, a troll and treat you as such.

You are making me really start to wonder about that, though.  I'm absolutely 
positive (w/o even seeing Far Trader) that you are misrepresting it, based on 
teh statements of the very authors (including the one who wrote the relevant 
sections)..  It's your intention I'm not sure of.  I'm coming to believe that 
regardless of the truth of the matter, you're going to continue to believe 
the preconceptions you've drawn, despite the actual facts.

Your previous post seems nothing but a troll, which i'm not going to dignify 
w/ a response (not even in kind).  Maybe privately... I've still got alot of 
digests to go through, though.  We'll see...  Wait, one thing.  It is not 
*my* mind that's closed to new ideas (namely, the subject of this entire 
thread: drop tanks).  *I* have not, by fiat, abolished them from my TU.  It 
is not *I* who won't even make an attempt for them to NOT destroy my TU (nor 
suspension of disbelief nor the lives of my poor lil PCs).  It is not *I* who 
am making a simple proclamation that they do what you claim they do (yet 
don't back up w/ anything but opinion).  Now I haven't crunched no numbers, 
either, but thankfully, I haven't needed to, as others have.  But they alwasy 
fail to address the crucial bit out that clinches it in your mind, right?

"Pot?  Kettle?  What color are you?"

> >What do you base that on?  Your numbers are just much a WAG as mine.
> 
> It based on the fact that it doesn't take decades to fix
> quality control problems, esp on items that have already been
> shown to be in manufacture else where.

Like I said, a Wild Ass Guess.  Worth exactly the effort you've put in 
actually
proving it.  At least do an analysis w/ some numbers, like others (notably 
Christopher Thrash and Jim Maclean).  I see an MT analysis (again w/ numbers)
that also says there isn't a dooming effect on the Traveller economics.  
Noticible, yeah.  Overwhelming?  Nope.

> >You appear to be
> >the sole proponet that drop tanks destroy Traveller Economics As We Know
> 
> Hans has posted before that it does.  Just because you don't see
> people posting doesn't mean they don't exist.  Nor does the
> number of posts indicate how correct an arguement is.

OOOOh.  LOL.  I'm absolutely positive that Hans has said he doesn't think 
it's a problem, even if drop tanks do come to dominate the main routes (which 
we have ZERO evidence that hasn't happened.  YTU?  It's YTU.  The G:T ATU or 
the OTU, nothing at all).  Now was that intentional or not?  Do you really 
want me to cut and paste the quote?

> > Why did we
> >not see a BB equiped w/ drop tanks in Fighting Ships?  Because it wasn't
> >explored, like you claim?
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> >  Or the Navy planners didn't have that much
> >confidence is such an expensive platform being possibly so vulnerable to
> >loss.

Now which makes the better in-game explanation?  "Oh, you'll have to ignore 
this TNS entry.  And all the related entries.  And all mention of this 
incident.  They just don't work in my game.  Period."  This of course, 
ignores the fact that the implementation could take decades to complete (as 
you yourself have conceded to).  If they even have the catastrophic effect 
you've claimed (despite the evidence to the contrary).

> >> I think so.  It will mean that jump-6 ships will be the rule,
> >> rather than jump-2 or so like it is now....
> 
> >And you lose 2 more weeks (for a J2 despite the fact u'd need that many 
more
> >drop tanks), in the time you can possibly do the same w/ tanks in your 
cargo
> >hold (inflatable or demountable).  In the same time your competitors have
> >made 3 stops.  And one misjump and you're done.  Certainly J6 drives are 
not
> >any more viable for merchant craft?  Or are you saying J3 drives will 
become
> >the rage now?
> 
> I don't follow this at all.  Aside from the issue of risk (see

Nothing since CT (isn't just Book 2, also?) has allowed jump drives to get a 
higher jump rating than it's number.  A J1 drive will only do J1, regardless 
of the size of teh ship, etc.  Therefore, a J6 drive is needed to make a 6 
parsec jump.  With your J2 trader and drop tanks, you could do 6 parsecs in 
three jumps.  G:T drives go along that pattern IIRC. 

I've also mentioned several times, that it's quite feasable you get a bad 
cargo run.  What do you do if you can't afford another set of drop tanks? 
What do you do if u misjump?  Can you afford more drop tanks on an 
unprofitable (much less disasterous) run?  And what happens when you can't?  

The *only* thing that busts drop tanks is if you allow there to be no or 
minimal internal tankage.  Let the only canon design be your guide...

> >You YOURSELF conceded "decades" (at least two, therefore). You tell me.
> 
> To finish, not for the change to begin.  I've said this several
> times.

Common sense would imply that the high point of the change would be in the
center of that, wouldn't it?  At least one decade for it to be prominent?  As 
Hans
as said, though he would see the dominance of drop tanks on teh main routes,
there isn't any evidence those changes aren't taking place.  Again, YTUMV.  
The OTU (nor the G:T ATU) is not yours, though, and I'm not talking about YTU.

> >To research a whole lot of different things.
> 
> Exactly.  They wouldn't be reasearching all that stuff if
> they didn't want to use it.  Yet you seem to think they will
> just put drop tanks on a shelf and forget about them.

I've said nothing of the sort, nor implied it.  What I *have* said is that I 
consider it a marginal tech, in a marginal canon design (the Gazelle).  The 
people w/ the numbers say it's not the economics buster you want it (or 
strawman it) to be.  But I haven't seen any numbers from you.  Nor will we.  
Perhaps you've already run them and know the truth already, but refuse to 
accept it.

> >LOL.  I am pressing your buttons, ain't I?  The first line quoted was
> >sarcastic.  I guess i should tone it down some, i'm prone to sarcasm when
> >dealing w/ absurdity.
> 
> This would be a better comment if you hadn't taken the "dealing with
> absurdity" swipe in the middle of claiming you would do better.

Do better?  Moi?  LOL.  Don't read between my lines, David.  I say what I 
mean, unless there's a smiley and squinting emoticon there, which would imply 
my jest.

> >My response probably goes along the lines of "Pot? Kettle?  Nice to meet 
you."
> 
> I must admit, a weakness of mine is that I tend to respond in
> kind.  I do appologize for that, but I never started this sort
> of tone.

If you were responding to me in kind, you'd be sarcastic and incredulous, not 
deliberately insulting and with obvious and growing hostility.  Are u the 
type who takes himself too seriously and gets thus offended?  I'm not saying 
things bout your personal life, family, or lifestyle.  Relax there, khihe, I 
come in peace.

> >That is great progress from the instant destruction of Far Trader you were
> >saying earlier.
> 
> I _never_ said that.

Ahem, the Instant (or at least Under 10 Year) Destroyer of Traveller 
Economics As We Know It?  How's that?  The Instant Destroyer of David 
Summer's Suspension of Disbelief?  That closer to the mark?  Despite the 
evidence (in G:T Far Trader, no less) given by the very authors of said book 
(well 2 of 3, including the economics one)?  


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #405
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 406



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tanks, Gazelles, stock matkets, & Al Morai
Re: EW was BC...  8^) 
Re: Jump Limits
Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
Re: #Traveller Undernet
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: Jump Limits
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: 10/100 Diameters
re: Far Trader Economics
Re: #Traveller Undernet
Re: What do starships cost?
Re: Aurora  (was max accel)
re: Far Trader Economics
Re: T5 Jump Masking
re: Far Trader Economics
Re: Far Trader Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:32:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop tanks, Gazelles, stock matkets, & Al Morai

>   Megacorps will self-insure their ships, unless their management is truly
> monumentally idiotic. If you assume that the 3I does require licenses to be
> issued for designs then that's a potential problem, but it doesn't apply to
> the rest of the universe.

Substitue Megacorp Insurance Deptartment, who says the costs will be high.  
Isn't
it different branches and subsidiaries even of the very same megacorp 
compete?  And all are out for the bottom line, the Cr (or MCr)?  

>   Once it becomes a business decision rather than an engineering problem
> then the battle is over - drop tanks will dominate most routes if the issue

Though the engineering problem is anything but decided (and probably never 
will be).  Nor the economic facts (though they do seem to be... *against* 
drop tanks having the effects David claims).

> is seen to be largely economic. If Gazelles exist without huge attrition
> rates from drop tank use then the engineering issues are clearly solved,

But it's well established that the Gazelles have a miserable reputation, due 
more to their being used in a role unsuitable to their specifications (even 
if the design didn't even stink at that), but the impression of the only 
canon drop tank design is very clear, and it's not good.

> at least for cargo uses (there is precedent for the "people are stupid"/
> "perception is everything" problem if liners blow up once in a while, but
> luckily that's inconceivable :| ). 

I'm not sure what you mean there.  Care to elaborate?  Or clarify it for this 
dim sophont? :-)

> >Only if the IN funds the ship designs.  As Real Life shows, it's far too 
> >often actual effectiveness takes a back seat to political and economic 
> >considerations.
> 
>   The Gazelle (however bizarre a mis-design it might be to us now) has
> supposedly used drop tanks since it was designed, but its hard to believe
> that it's a 1095-1100 new build; if it was originally a Rim War escort (and
> what else could keep up with an AHL?) then what was it doing for L-Hyd 
tankage?

We can well give the 12 years the TNS entry speaks of.  Do Core Bulk 
Freighters have any more detrimental effect than Core Drop-Tank Bulk 
Freighters on the PCs?  Nope.  Are they economically significant to a trader 
sized ship?  The answer is being proven by others to be no, with no evidence 
to the contrary.  Issue some and you might well sway me around.  I,  unlike 
some people, keep an open mind as regards these things (like I've said 
repeatedly, I've never used them, nor the Gazelle) and am interested if I 
should be.  I simply don't see them to be the canon/economy busting thing 
their claimed as.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:32:50 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: EW was BC...  8^) 

> I think it's a pretty interesting story line personally.  It's effects seem 
somewhat

Ditto.  Very much so.  The imagination is the limit with the TNE setting.  
There are no limitations. The same cannot be said of Imperial Space in other 
milieus, which are straightjacketed in alot of things (the 3I is surrounded 
by what appears to be an equilibrium with the neighboring powers, until the 
Rebellion.  The Imperial Fun Police supress piracy, etc etc).  Everything is 
has it has been for a thousand years and more.  G:T claims to only take away 
the most notable events (Rebellion, Collapse), but to stay dynamic.  We'll 
see.

> varied but it seems to brind about a fundamental change in peoples 
mindests.  

It's anything but monolithic.  That's not what TNE was about.  To have one 
matter-of-fact answer.  Think that the "Empress Wave" could be an umbrella 
name given to a number of psionic and EM phenomena (just like "Longbow" was 
an umbrella for a large number of Imperial projects aimed at the core, not 
just the single Longbow sensor array, nor even including Longbow II, as RSB 
makes clear) that happen to come behind the wavefront.  There wasn't going to 
be an "answer."  Whatever a ref wanted to do, could be done IMO.  The 
adventures and supplements would detail specific things, but only in their 
venue, not anythign all encompassing.  IMO.  YMMV.

> IMO and FWIU it seems to have the greatest impact on monolithic cultures, 
or 
> the greatest visable impact on monolithic cultures.  The EW had been 
travelling 
> through the Vargr extents for equally as long as it had through Zho space 
however, > because the very nature of Vargr society is chaotic its effect was 
less pronounced 
> than those witnesses in Zhodani space where society and politics were 
somewhat > less dynamic.

Course, what in canon is to say that the *EW* travelling through Vargr space 
*is not* the very cause of their chaotic society?  Note that Cogs & Dogs says 
there were patterns (in the Gvegh area IIRC) of change.  Also note the weird 
psionic Vargr (Roth Thokken, et al).  Maybe the EW is related to the peaks 
and/or nadirs of strange things and great uphevals (or lack thereof) going on 
in Vargr space?  

That's even if it's not a multitude of phonemona that may or may not be 
interacting at the same time...  Effects that could be completely different 
in Zho space (making them all conform with the status quo, etc) or anywhere 
else, due to the nature of that space, the variable effects of the "wave," 
and hte nature of the sophonts being interacted with.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:18:35 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

>If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an approximation
>based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from the
>mass.
>
>So, anyone fancy a go at calculating the minimum gravity threshold after
>which jump is safe?
>
>I suppose what I'm getting at is that in some system 100D will be fine. In
>others *maybe* 95D. In a really bad one 100+D
>
>Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the limit closer?
>
>Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?
>
>
>Dom


Here's my solution:
We want a handwave that falls back onto the physically unsound but playable
100d rule. We want to take various densities into account and also have
some kind of vague physical explanation.

"The hundred diameters limit is the thing we jumpspace engineers tell
uneducated TAS reporters, children and your average mudballer. It is fairly
accurate most of the time, easy to grasp and of course totally ridicelous.
Think for a moment about the galaxy we live in. The hundred diameter rule
would seem to imply that no ship can safely jump inside a hundred times the
diameter of the galaxy! Clearly there must be somthing wring here.

The simplification of the hundred diameters rule (from now on called 100d
rule) is that it treats all bodies as spherical and with a density of 1.0
earth standards. For these limited cases the rule still holds but for
anything else a more complicated calculation is needed:

The reason why ships cannot jump as easy when inside a deep gravity well is
due to the force of gravity or more accurately the rate of change of
gravity at the point. This rate of change is sometimes called tidal force
or gravity gradient and drops off much faster than gravity. To calculate
the distance from a planet where a safe jump can be performed simply use
this formula:

Js = 1 280 000 km times the cuberoot of the planets mass measures in
earthmasses.

If you know the density of the planet but not its mass use:

Js = 100d times the cuberoot of the planets density measured in earthdensities.

If the massive body isn't spherical, set up a reasonably fine mass grid and
calculate the field, then you calculate the gradients between the cells.
Consider this to be your homework until tomorrow but make shure your
massive objects have no rotational symmetry axes.
That'll be all today students, tomorrow we will discover why jumpdimming is
just an archaic tradition with no real bearing on modern jump technology."

Andarii Bachmanu, Introductory jump theory, first lecture
Rhylanor 053-1120.



I really think that my solution fits the bill perfectly; it falls back to
the 100d rule in most cases so those refs not interested in the finicky
details can ignore it altogether or use it only as a gamesetting tidbit for
realism but never actually calculate it. I can see no major problems with
it (except that Marc didn't like it for whatever reason) so feel free to
use it.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:38:05 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts

>Wow, I hadn't thought about healthcare in space!  I suppose
>spaceborne hospitals and the like would be expensive and
>rather large affairs, and very useful for research and people
>who have excellent insurance...

I can only say one thing :

      James White,   "Hospital Ship" etc,

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:43:56 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: #Traveller Undernet

>Please note that I'm still looking for virtual TAS lounge names. We only
>have eight official entries to date.  I hope to add voting capabilities to
>the site closer to the end of the month.

While I'm not an IRCer, my favorite bar has alway's been Munden's Bar, from
the comic Grimjack, closely followed by Callahan's, on which Munden's is
partially based.

But then, if you look at my email address, you could probably guess that :-)

Frankie










>A new area has been added for listing IRC games. If you run a game or are
>in a game, please let me know.  Altec and Uplift will be added by week's
>end. CmdrX, may I add yours?





>Cheers!
>
>Suz
>
>http://home.att.net/~websuz/
>http://home.att.net/~suzdollar/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:00:30 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

>Is there a common orientation reference direction that can be described
>from each system?

Direction to core.

>IMTU, I have always allowed relative velocity to be kept through jump.
>(Roll 2d6 for # of G-turns required to correct velocity - 1d6 for hex
>direction of velocity). Sucessful navigation tasks to determine this
>info prior to jump.
>
>I could never figure out a way to keep track of relative positioning
>without a custom software package. I wrote a BASIC program 14 years ago
>that calculated Book 6 system positions as a function of a time seed.

I don't think most people bother even thinking about it !
Though such a thing would have been useful for some of our more military
missions

>I wish I could find that input now. It was for an Apple IIe and was the
>culmination of a high school summer of learning BASIC. By that autumn, I
>had a girlfriend and my gaming and programming time suffered
>considerably. It hasn't really improved since.
>
>FWIW, both the computer and the girlfriend were repeatedly upgraded to
>better models.

<grin>
I'm afraid I was married before the TRS80 came out, and the cost of attempting
to upgrade Wife 1.0  is significantly higher than upgrading Girlfriend in any
of it's versions.

Mind you I've gone from an Ohio Scientific kitset with most of the logic in
TTL and 512 bytes of RAM , to my current P][400 with 128Mb

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:20:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

In mail you write:

> If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an approximation
> based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from the
> mass.
>
> So, anyone fancy a go at calculating the minimum gravity threshold after
> which jump is safe?

We've been through this before. It turns out that for the "rule of
thumb" to be at all accurate, then the limit must be based on property
of mass that drops off as the inverse *cube* of distance. 

That's because the mass goes as the cube of diameter on a body of fixed
density.

It turns out that tidal forces follow an inverse cube law. And it even
makes a strange sort of sense as tidal force is a measure of the *rate*
at which gravity changes. Or, if you prefer a measure of how curved
space is. So like I said, it makes a sort of sense that the safe limit
depends on the curvature of space.

> Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the limit closer?

Yes. 

> Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?

The formula is basicly:

X=GM/r^3
X = rate of force change (in Newtons/meter)
G = Newton's Gravitational Constant
    6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2
M = Mass of planet/star (in kilograms)
r = distance (in meters)

So just work it backwards for both 10 and 100 diameters from a size 7
or 8 planet of "standard" density. That gives you values of "X" for
both "risky" (10 dia) and "safe" (100 dia) jumps. 

You then plug those into the formula along with the mass of the new
planet/star and solve for "r".


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 01:09:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

In mail you write:

>> From: bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>> Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking
>> 
>> It's a little hard to figure out what happens in various exotic
>> cases, though. Clearly if you try to jump to Alpha-C while jjupiter is in
>
> That's only because you misunderstand basic jump concepts, as your
> example shows:
>
>> To give a more conecrete example: I'm jumping to a system two parsecs
>> away. In the empty hex in between us is the evil Zhodani with his 
>> million-ton asteroid ship. If it's on the line between me and my 
> destination
>> I emerge after a week at the destination.
>> What if 
>> (a) it's on the line when I depart, but moves out of the way two days
>> after I leave?
>
> It doesn't make any difference where obstacles might be.  When you jump,
> you're not travelling in a straight line through normal space.  If
> you're in normal space at point A, and there is an object at point B,
> and on the other side of that object is point C, you can jump directly
> from A to C.  You don't pass through B, because B is in normal space,
> and you're in jump space, which doesn't correspond to normal space.  

Alas, Marc Miller disagrees. He's used exactly this sort of example in
the past. If the straight line linking your entry and exit point passes
thru the 100 diameter limit of any object, you are dumped out of jump
space at that point.

Alas, Marc has never cleared up details like timing. Do you pop out
early? What if the object is in the way only part of the time taken by
the jump? 

The "simplest" way to do it would be to act as if the ship was moving
along the line at uniform speed. But then if you have something that's
in the way at midpoint, do you pop out early? Or do you pop out at the
end of the week? If the latter, *why* did you pop out? After all,
rescaling your movement to the shorter jump, means that you'd *miss*
the object (unless it was motionless). 

I can't come up with good answers and Marc never gave any. 

> As far as we know, there are no other objects in jump space.  We can't
> see anything in jump space, nor get results from other sensors.  There
> are no collisions in jump space. There is no communication through jump
> space.  Even if your whole fleet is jumping with you, you are all out of
> touch with each other until you reemerge in normal space.  

Apparently, the curvature of realspace can interfere with jumpspace.
And according to Marc, the hex map *does* represent realspace.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:02:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

In mail you write:

> This is kind of a followup to the relative velocity between systems
> topic...
>
> Is there a common orientation reference direction that can be described
> from each system? 

Sure. "The fixed stars". Or in this case, the directions to the various
other galaxies. No matter how far you move in this galaxy, the
direction of (say) the Virgo cluster (of galaxies) isn't going to
change noticeably. 

For that matter, given the size of "known space" in the Official
Traveller Universe, "coreward" is essentially the same direction from
anywhere on the maps. 

> IMTU, I have always allowed relative velocity to be kept through jump.
> (Roll 2d6 for # of G-turns required to correct velocity - 1d6 for hex
> direction of velocity). Sucessful navigation tasks to determine this
> info prior to jump.

> I could never figure out a way to keep track of relative positioning
> without a custom software package. I wrote a BASIC program 14 years ago
> that calculated Book 6 system positions as a function of a time seed. 

Well, the simplest way is to assume circular orbits, and use the
formulas in the various expanded world generation systems to determine
the length of the year for each planet. Then all you need is a time
value for *a* time when the planet was at the 0 degree mark. 

Given those two *fixed* figures, you just figure out how many *days* it
has been since the zero time, divide that by the year, and covert the
remainder to the fraction of an orbit it is around its orbit at the
current time. 

Me, I plan on "cheating" and just assuming that all planets were at the
zero position at Julian Day #0 (noon, GMT, 1 Jan 4713 BC). But any
software for world design/system storage should have a field for "time
of perihelion passage" as part of the orbital elements. 

You can make up system maps for more frequently visited systems with
orbits marked with degrees. Just place planet counters on the orbits. 

I'd like to have a program that keeps track of all this stuff, and
allows for plotting courses both inside systems and between them.

It'd probably be best to write it "generically" with the ability to
convert things like planet info into the stats for various game
systems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 05:37:34 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: re: Far Trader Economics

>Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 00:19:17 +0100
>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: re: Far Trader Economics

For the record, Jim is the economist and created those sections of the
rules (something I would never have wanted to attempt, even if I had the
background). I'm the ship operations guy, though, so I did all the initial
modelling of ship expenses, profits, breakeven points, etc.

>Jump masking eats away at any time saving in port - most systems are
>automatically masked if you go by the stellar types in MT Imperial
Encyclopedia.
>I am beginning to suspect that Jump masking is going to make it much
harder to
>make a profit. It should also make freight rates to masked systems higher.
>

Jump masking was built into the models from the beginning, using the
average added travel time of 30.6 hours (at 1g). Jim is right: most ships
still manage between 30 and 35 jumps per year.

>>(4) The Beowulf has got to be the hardest ship to make money in ever 
>>designed.  Try an Empress Marava coupled with some long-distance trading 
>>strategies and tell me what you find.  The biggest problem I had in 
>>designing these rules was in how to keep clever players and highly skilled 
>>characters from making too _much_ money.
>
>So you are saying that Beowulf is a broken ship as far as Far Trader is
>concerned?

Say rather that the Beowulf is meta-designed for *roleplaying* -- fat,
guaranteed profits do not lead to desperate measures, which are the stuff
of adventures. It is *possible* to make a profit with a Beowulf under the
standard Far Trader rules; it is deliberately very difficult to do so.
Specifically, you are driven towards passengers and speculative cargo,
which are more interesting from a roleplaying standpoint. This (according
to Loren Wiseman) was inherent in the design from the beginning, and we
respected that intent.

[By the way, the ship operations costs in Far Trader do average out about
the same as the Cr100/dton/week in GT -- I adjusted them that way. But
that's assuming you pay full price for every possible category. By doing
some of the work by hand (which takes time, and eats into your profits) you
can avoid many of the fees. Also, be sure to note the Terms of Shipping,
and who pays for what.]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 06:49:10 -0500
From: meow@advancenet.net
Subject: Re: #Traveller Undernet

then get ye to the undernet, for Callahans exists on IRC too.
I'm almost always inhabiting it and #traveller at the same time.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 08:17:14 -0400
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Re: What do starships cost?

One possibility is that starships may cost *more* to build than the
selling price.  Class A starports may be silently subsidized by naval
and scout bases using the same facilities.  Here on Earth, this practice
is commonly alledged against civil aircraft manufacturers who also make
military planes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 07:54:10 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Aurora  (was max accel)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > << aka external burning ramjets >>
> >
> > Actually it's more like an inside-out rocket engine.There are 2
> types-linear
> > aerospike and axial aerospike.I'll hunt down a link if you'd like but the
> > last time I looked the site was down.
> 
> Hmm...  My Jane's Advanced Tactical Fighters computer game aircraft
> database/resource thingamagig conjectures that it uses a "pulse wave
> detonation" engine of some kind, though everything in that entry (mentioned
> as alone being dubious in fact in that presentation) is mere supposition.
> Pulse wave detonation certainly sounds familiar, but isn't ringing any
> bells...

Perhaps the pulse-jet engine used by the V-1 "buzz bomb"?

> 
> Gary

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:35:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: re: Far Trader Economics

On 04/05/99 20:22:02 you wrote:
>
>
>>(4) The Beowulf has got to be the hardest ship to make money in ever 
>>designed.  
>
>If the Beowulf can't make money with the given freight/passenger prices,
>then what ship can? Does a bigger ship do better? Presumably those prices
>are set so that *someone* is making money on jump-1 freight...
>
>Bruce
>
	Big ships are more efficient at all jump ranges.  Far Trader says that 
an important way tramp ships make their money is by taking advantage of 
temporarily high prices.  J-1 ships have a shorter range and therefore fewer 
opportunities to take advantage of good opportunities.  In general, this 
makes it more difficult to earn a living as a tramp.  The Beowulf can't 
compete with shipping lines because it doesn't have the scale economies and 
it's not a very good tramp because it isn't economical to haul cargo in a J-
1 ship further than one parsec.  This limits their potential destinations to 
just one parsec from their current world, whereas J-2+ ships can accept 
cargos for worlds many parsecs and many jumps away.
	The prices for 1 parsec tramp freight in Far Trader were set by a 
model 200-400dt J-1 freighter.  The biggest secret to making money as a 
Beowulf owner is to make more than 24 jumps per year.  Using Far Trader 
rules it's not at all difficult, and a skilled captain who managed to make 
35 jumps per year could make quite a good deal of money.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:42:43 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

>
> Alas, Marc Miller disagrees. He's used exactly this sort of example in
> the past. If the straight line linking your entry and exit point passes
> thru the 100 diameter limit of any object, you are dumped out of jump
> space at that point.
>
> Alas, Marc has never cleared up details like timing. Do you pop out
> early? What if the object is in the way only part of the time taken by
> the jump?
>
> The "simplest" way to do it would be to act as if the ship was moving
> along the line at uniform speed. But then if you have something that's
> in the way at midpoint, do you pop out early? Or do you pop out at the
> end of the week? If the latter, *why* did you pop out? After all,
> rescaling your movement to the shorter jump, means that you'd *miss*
> the object (unless it was motionless).

Well, I figured out a way.  I figured that most of the jump was taking place in
"deep space" where gravity was "near zero".  Even in deep space, your own ship's
mass and stray hydrogen molecules prevent absolute zero gravity.  Then I assume
that your velocity in jumpspace is inversely proportional to gravity.  Thus, you
end up covering the largest part of the trip in nearly no time.  The only thing
that slows you down is the time spent in the gravity well of starsystems  and
other gravity bodies.  It takes about half a week to accelerate out of a gravity
system and half a week coming back in.  Thus it doesn't make a significant
difference where the jump masking object is as far as time goes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:59:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: re: Far Trader Economics

On 04/06/99 00:19:17 you wrote:
>
>jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>(2) 24 jumps a year is too few.  Canon aside, you don't need to spend a 
>>whole week knocking about port looking for freight and passengers.  35 
jumps 
>>a year is definitely the max, but something in between helps close your 
>>revenue short-fall further.
>
>Jump masking eats away at any time saving in port - most systems are
>automatically masked if you go by the stellar types in MT Imperial 
Encyclopedia.
>I am beginning to suspect that Jump masking is going to make it much harder 
to
>make a profit. It should also make freight rates to masked systems higher.

	I agree, but the feeling was that things were complicated enough 
already.  I wouldn't be hard to figure out how much more expensive such 
freight would be.  Simply add the average daily operating cost per dton of 
freight to the average price for a particular world for every day the world 
is masked on average.  This can be determined by using the ship types that 
commonly call on a world and the masking rules.
	As for the Beowulf, even a few more jumps a year is going to make it 
break even.  

>(aside : jump masking, no life support costs, & self maintenance of ships 
also
>opens the door to piracy a little wider than with previous versions of
>traveller)

	I believe this was part of the idea.

>>(3) Skills!  Your crew should have Merchant skill to push up your freight 
>>rate, savoir-faire to push up passenger ticket prices, Market Analysis and 
>>Economics to predict where above average freight and passenger rates can 
be 
>>found, and Area Knowledge to find those juicy speculative cargos.
>
>Fair enough. I don't see how this will be enough to offset the costs for a
>Beowulf.

	Using the Merchant template from GT, you can increase revenue by 10% 
just by using the Merchant-15 on your final price rolls.  Using the other 
tricks in the book should help at least that much.

>>(4) The Beowulf has got to be the hardest ship to make money in ever 
>>designed.  Try an Empress Marava coupled with some long-distance trading 
>>strategies and tell me what you find.  The biggest problem I had in 
>>designing these rules was in how to keep clever players and highly skilled 
>>characters from making too _much_ money.
>
>So you are saying that Beowulf is a broken ship as far as Far Trader is
>concerned?

	I don't know a rules system that the Beowulf _wasn't_ broken for.  I 
can remember having had this conversation about how it was impossible to 
make money in a Beowulf for both CT & TNE.  I missed the MT-era but I 
wouldn't be surprised if it was true for that rules set as well.  The 
Beowulf was designed for the dramatic plot device of a very small merchant 
ship capable of being run by a group of PCs.  Fortunately for us, there's 
another ship that fits this description that _is_ profitable and, IMHO, more 
fun -- the Empress Marava.
	Let me point out that I didn't set out to make the Beowulf "broken" 
for Far Trader rules, nor is it merely a rules artifact.  The simple fact is 
that any possible economic role you can imagine for the Beowulf can be done 
better by another design.  Significantly, one of the places where the 
Beowulf can make money without too much trouble is in groups of Frontier 
worlds.



- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:12:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

On 04/04/99 18:17:21 you wrote:

John Buston's Beowulf Expense figures:
>Expenditure per jump:
>
>  Mortgage = 58 KCr
>  Salaries =  5 KCr
>  Fuel     =  2 KCr
>  Maintenance
>   contribution = 1 KCr
>  Berthing = 20 KCr
>  Sundries = 1 KCr

How do you figure 20,000Cr per jump in berthing fees?
	From Far Trader page 66:
	Berthing fee -- Cr20*200dt = 4000Cr
	Starport fee -- Cr500
	Total		 -- Cr4500

	I'm guessing that you're making the ship pay for freight handling.  
Unless they're hauling speculative cargo, this is the responsibility of 
either the buyer or seller, as discussed on pg. 54 under Terms of Shipping.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #406
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 407



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Jump Limits
Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
re: What does a starship cost?
RE: 10/100 Diameters
Drop Tanks
Re: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??
Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
Re: max accel
re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: max accel 
Audio Speaker Tech Advance
Re: max accel (Design contest anyone?)
Fuel Cell Breakthrough
AHL?
Re: AHL?
Re: Jump Limits
Re: AHL?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:21:58 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump Limits

Dom Mooney writes:
"If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be 
an approximation based around a 'typical mass' and the 
gravity a certain distance from the mass."
<snipped>
"Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the 
limit closer?"
<snipped>

	IMTU I assume that the 100D is based on gravity, so
	gas giants and stars have a limit of 33D (because
	they contain less mass than their D would indicate).

Anthony Jackson writes:
"100d probably _isn't_ directly gravity based; if you assume 
it is mass-based, 100D only works if one assumes tidal 
force, not gravity.  In the case of tidal force, it works 
out to a tidal force of about 1.6 x 10^-9 newtons/kilogram/
meter."

	I'm afraid that I don't follow this (I'm no physicist).
	Why can't it be gravity-based if there is a critical
	acceleration due to gravity that must be avoided?

John Buston writes:
"Domonic Mooney wrote:
<snipped>
>Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the 
limit closer?

Much Further..."

	Once again, I'm no physicist, but I though that the
	force due to gravity depends only on the mass of each
	object and the distance between their centers of mass.
	Thus, the mass of the planet is what counts, and a
	planet wither lower density (like a gas giant), with
	the mass of a smaller earth-like planet, would have a 
	smaller jump limit.

<snipped>

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:07:26 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts

I believe the ship was named the Hope.  I think she was operated by WHO. 
Not sure if she's still operational or not.  


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 20:23:18 -0700 "Glenn M. Goffin"
<gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:
>> From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
>> Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
>> 
>> Wow, I hadn't thought about healthcare in space!  I suppose

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:23:04 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: re: What does a starship cost?

Scott Davis posted:
>
>>Rob Eaglestone posted:
>>
>>What does a starship cost?
>>
>>
>>But for my assumptions, a 100t starship that takes 9 months
>>to build would therefore cost:
>>
>> . Labor: Cr4000 * 100 dtons * 9 months = Cr3,600,000
>>  Parts: Cr3,600,000
>> Profit: Cr7,200,000
>
>>In other words, the cost of construction of a starship is
>>
>>  Cr8000 per dton per month
>>
>>and the price tag is twice that.
>>------------------------------
>There are a few more items you may want to include before taking
>that profit.
<snip>

And don't forget that all starports are Imperial territory. The Imperium
is also going to get its share of taxes, fees, etc. I can then
manipulate the amount of its taxes/fees/whatever in an attempt to
monitor and control the number of ships built at specific starports.
Such economic control is just too powerful for the Imperium to pass
on. Even a tenth of a percentile represents a great deal of CrImps
when levied on a busy construction 'port building relatively large
ships.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:32:54 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: 10/100 Diameters

OK, I'll go with a coreward orientation vector for each system.

Next question...
 
I assumed that the orientation of each system's "flattened disk" set of
orbit trajectories be completely random. Therefore, the coreward
orientation vector should be random (have its own seed). And I've
assumed up to a 15 degree angle above or below the disk for each
individual orbit. Reasonable?

Shadow wrote:

>Given those two *fixed* figures, you just figure out how many *days* it
>has been since the zero time, divide that by the year, and covert the
>remainder to the fraction of an orbit it is around its orbit at the
>current time. 
>
>Me, I plan on "cheating" and just assuming that all planets were at the
>zero position at Julian Day #0 (noon, GMT, 1 Jan 4713 BC). But any
>software for world design/system storage should have a field for "time
>of perihelion passage" as part of the orbital elements. 

My past attempt was even weaker than your cheat. It BASICly (pun
intended) asked you for the masses in each orbit, assumed circular
orbits and single stars and spat out positions and velocities for
whatever time you asked for.

There was no data storage. It required a lot of command line data input.
But it worked.

My intended redesign would include 
   User specified coordinate systems i.e. planetary or solar reference
   Automatic G-Burn calculations for transfer orbits
   Automatic G-Burn calculations planet to orbit / orbit to planet
      (and how many type of orbits I want to automatically calculate)
   Storing everything in arrays and writing a reference file format
   Full 3-d visualization (this is the show stopper for me, numbers I
can deal with)
   
Shadow again:

>It'd probably be best to write it "generically" with the ability to
>convert things like planet info into the stats for various game
>systems.

I would welcome any suggestions for a robust generic system
specification. Prferably one that didn't require hex to base ten lookups
all over the place. 

Before I starting working in the software industry, I would run
willy-nilly writing software and adding features. Now I try to get a set
of requirements and designs before I start coding. At least before I had
some software.

<Gasp>...must...regain...bad...habits...to...improve...productivity
 
______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers                 Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
ANSYS Inc.                       
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:33:19 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Drop Tanks

Just thought I'd point out that in the GTU (which is as some have pointed
out an ALTERNATE TU) fuel is explained as being required throughout the jump
G:T. Drop tanks are mentioned in Spinward Marches Sourcebook, Behind the
Claw in the Recent History of the Spinward Marches sidebar. It says:

1105 saw the first experiment of liquid-hydrogen drop tanks on commercial
vessels...
1106 ...The..liner Trimkhana-Brillance was lost on 186-1106 due to an
explosion thought to have been caused by...the vessel's L-hyd drop tanks...
sent the drop tank project back to the testing stage...*

*GURPS, GURPS Traveller and Behind the Claw,Spinward Marches Sourcebook are
registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games.

Obviously the OGTU has seen fit to ban the use of drop tanks by using a
device explained in GURPS Ultra-Tech 2. Which to paraphrase is to ban a
technology already existing in the game by having it develop some previously
unknown flaw. So you can let your players use drop tanks if you want or let
them have them and blow them up if you don't want. (Which you're free to do
anyway :) ).

As an aside it didn't mention use of drop tanks by the military at all,
though the description of how jump technology works in G:T would seem to me
to indicate that jump tank would have to be of the take them with you when
you jump variety that I have always espoused. (Increases your range between
refuelings.)

As another aside jump technology has always IIRC included the requirement,
or feature, that the jump engines on a ship be overpowered so that a jump
drive was capable of transporting a displacement volume larger than the ship
itself. This was explain somewhere (I can't remember where) as justification
for being able to drag another ship along through the jump. I think this was
covered in one of the corsair adventures. Anyway this would allown the extra
displacement of the drop tanks to be added to the ships. I do beleive that
this effects J distance.  As I said in another post we don't usually use'em.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:36:17 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??

>>>>
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:55:40 -0600
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Villani Repository of All Knowledge??

I'm desparately searching for additional information about the AAB.  
Specifically, I'm wondering what role it plays in the Spinward Marches,
circa 
1120.  Milleu 0 is an awesome resource, but of course, is set in a
different era.  
Are there publications past or present that would be a good resource? 
Or, am I 
to assume that the lack of information for later eras means that it
plays a 
significantly smaller role in the Third Imperium?
 -- James Pearson
>>>>
Check the Travellers Digest magazine (by DGP).  One of the early issues
(5 I think) had information about the AAB in connection with a grand
starship theft at Depot in the Corridor sector.  One of the later issues
(13?) had the party visit one of the major library sites.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts

Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:
>
> > From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
> > Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
> > 
> > Wow, I hadn't thought about healthcare in space!  I suppose
> > spaceborne hospitals and the like would be expensive and
> > rather large affairs, and very useful for research and people
> > who have excellent insurance...
> 
> Maybe they bring higher tech medicine to less developed areas (both
> inside and outside their own state), and help deal with epidemics and
> large-scale things (e.g., earthquakes).  I think that the UN or WHO had
> a ship that did that in the 1960s -- or maybe the 1960s was just the
> last time I thought about it.  

I beleive you're referring to Project HOPE.  They did have a full-sized
hospital ship that visited virtually every port in the third world.
The entire operation was run on donations.

> The military applications are obvious, of course.  While your fleet's
> ships can each handle casualties, it's probably more efficient to get
> them out of the sickbays of the battleships and cruisers (where they're
> likely just in medical low berth, anyway), and get them some real care. 
> I see hospital ships as part of the batch of fleet tender vessels --
> with the tankers, the missile supply ships, the repair ships, etc.

The U.S. Navy has two hospital ships: AH-19 Mercy and AH-20 Comfort.
Each contain 12 fully-equipped operating rooms, a 1,000 bed hospital
facility, radiological services, medical laboratory, a pharmacy, an
optometry lab, a cat scan and two oxygen producing plants. Both vessels
have a helicopter deck capable of landing large military helicopters,
as well as side ports to take on patients at sea.

Stats for the Mercy Class are:

Conversion: National Steel and Shipbuilding Co., San Diego, Calif.
Power Plant: 2 GE turbines; two boilers; 24,500 hp (18.3MW); one shaft
Length: 894 feet (272.6 meters) 
Beam: 105.6 feet (32.2 meters)
Displacement: 69,360 tons (70,473.10 metric tons) full load 
Speed: 17.5 knots (20.13 mph)
Aircraft: Helicopter platform only
Crew: 63 civilian mariners, 956 Naval medical staff, and
      258 Naval support staff

Use this as a framework for an IN hospital ship and then use whichever
set of ship design rules (MT, FF&S, etc.) suits you to complete the design.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:50:28 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 12:18 AM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be better
>>to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only to
>>fire it's energy weapons.
>
>Because the space fighter could star high and use drones or other spotters
>(even if it's own sensors aren't good enough) and nail the fighter from
>below.
>
>But there's a whole interesting set of tactics that need developing ;-)
>
>Dom
>

Now you're talking.  That would be a stealth duel indeed.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:50:38 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 12:15 AM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star Wars
>>Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so powerful
>>that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.
>
>Who would you trust with it ;-)
>

I'd use the same protocalls that are used for nuclear missles.  Two keys exc.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:50:49 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 08:02 PM 4/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>But if the aerospace capable fighter can draw the air fighter to the upper
>>>reaches of the atmosphere, (for example), the air fighter is ppush its
>>>parameters. If an aerospace fighter enters the atmosphere, it is still
>>>within its parameters, even if it has limitations that an air fighter
>>>doesn't.
>>
>> Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be better
>> to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only to
>> fire it's energy weapons.
>
>Except that from the viewpoint of a space fighter, you are "next to"
>that feature, not "behind" it. 
>

Only if the fighter  come into the atmosphere directly overhead.  Then it's
a case of who shoots first and truest.  With any angle there will be blind
spots and the likely hood of 0 angle is near 0.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:51:00 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 08:13 PM 4/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star Wars
>> Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so powerful
>> that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.
>
>That just came up on RASFS. Consider the effects of trying to turn the
>"moon" quickly....
>
>a=4*pi^2*r/t^2
>a = acceleration (meters/sec^2)
>r = radius (meters)
>t = period of rotation
>
>For the Moon r=1738000. Let's say you are willing to wait 10 minutes
>(worst case) to be able to aim at something. That makes t=20 min = 1200
>sec.
>
>a = 4*pi^2 * 1738000/1200^2
>a = 47.6
>
>So you'll have an acceleration of close to 5 gees at the surface. Oops!
>
>If we restrict turning rate to the point where the acceleration is
>only 1/6th g, then it'll take 2.8 *hours* to swing 180 degrees. 
>
>I think we can dodge that pretty easily.
>

Why would you need to turn the moon?  Turn the weapon or divert the beam
with a wave guide.  Or us a meson gun and shoot though any part of the moon
you need to.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:51:11 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel 

>> Neither have you, so how do you claim that the space fighter will win?  You
>> make the assumption based on other people's comments.  I make mine based on
>> design rules and physical limits within the real world.
>
>You did see hte part where I said I've seen in many games where a TL-12 
>Wildbat (much less effective than a TL-15 Rampart) beats TL-9 aircraft, 
>didn't you?  It happened in the course of my campaigns already.  I can 

Yes, but that is not relavent to my statement about equal tech level.  I
have already stated the a tech level difference would be telling.

>provide you with the TNE stats if you want.  The game rules say the space 
>fighter will win.  This whole thread has concluded that the space fighter 
>will win.  You remain unconvinced though... i'm not going to rehash 
>everything said by everyone.  Read especially what Shadow (aka Leonard 
>Erickson) has wrote, though.  
>
>> If that were so the RPGs are absurd.  I do not consider them so.  I do not
>> consider any intelectual discorse complete without merit.  We learn from
>> everything we do, if we are wise.
>
>That's why i'm asking you to run it in a game, using GURPS.  I'm fairly sure 
>you'll see the same results, anyways.  Don't need to mess up your campaign.  
>Will it cause the sky to fall if you play the aircraft and the GM plays the 
>space fighter? There is an existing G:T rampart already.   It's fine w/ me.  

Actually it would.  I have nearly zero free time these days and it is likely
to remain so for another month and perhaps two months.  RL can be a pain.
Also most of the groups I have played with over the years have a very low
tollerence for things not directly involved with the current game.  Free
time is precious.  I hope that after the current RL problems clear up I can
start a new group and perhaps restart another older group but at the
momonent I'm limited to one group that would not be interested in this
experiment.

>You only need a GURPS TL-8 (?) fighter to duplicate the original topic of 
>this thread.  Take it up to a GTL-12 atmosphere fighter.  There should be one 
>somewhere, shouldn't there?  Plenty of GV2 designs that have to be floating 
>around the web.  Asking a G:T/GV2'er would be more helpful than me in your 
>specific needs to see what I see w/ TNE.
>
>> Also, I stated that a RPG based on space craft might not have a good air
>> craft design system because it saw no need for the detailed mechanics. This
>
>And it was explicitly shown that everythign you mentioned is in FF&S (and/or 
>the TNE rules).  Everything.  There is a good aircraft design system (though 
>it doesn't *perfectly* replicate the Real World) and mechanics to operate it 
>under.
>
>> We need to better define the test before we go any farther.  What is to be
>> the design limit?  I'd say money.  Next we compare not two but three
>> vehicals.  One air fighter, one space fighter, and one grave tank all of the
>> same or lower tech level all costing the same or less money.
>
>As you yourself have said, things are rarely equal.  If they are, someone 
>isn't doing their job.  That's probably the best way to test it though.  The 
>basic point is that an airframed spacecraft is an overvaluable and 
>overcapable aircraft of the same TL.  It likely costs alot more than the pure 
>aircraft but is a helluva lot more capable.  That's what this thread proved.
>

Actually this thread has 'proven' nothing only discussed.  We have not set
criteria for a test and now that I have attemped to do so you say it's
pointless?  What gives?  'More capable'?  Under what conditions?  Can a TCS
beat a TC defense force?

By the way I conceed that a 100mcr space fighter is likely to beat a 20mcr
air plane but what about a 100mcr one or 5 20 mcr air planes?

Charles L.



Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:54:28 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Audio Speaker Tech Advance

There's been a major breakthrough in speaker technology.
A British company has developed a technology which allows
the use of flat panels of material as a speaker diaphram.

Some of you may have heard of this technology but the
breakthrough is a single flat panel of *rigid* material
can now be used as *multiple* diaphrams. The technology has
reached the point that the transparent screen of a laptop
PC can be used as the PC's speakers, including a subwoofer,
without degrading the video. It can also be used to turn
car doors, cinema screens, picture frames, etc. into speakers.

There is still some work to be done but Phillips, Blaupunkt,
and other audio companies are jumping onboard. This
technology is inexpensive and will be commercially available
_this year_!

ABC's story on this technology is available at:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/

Scroll down to the "Technology" section and select the link
entitled "Flat Panel Speakers Sound Off."

What's so incredible about this breakthrough is that if
the panels can give off sound, they'll soon be able to
pick up sounds from the environment (i.e. your voice).
Once this happens, say "goodbye" to microphones and "hello"
to arm-mounted computers you can carry on a conversation
with.

Just like in Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:56:34 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel (Design contest anyone?)

At 03:43 PM 4/5/99 +0000, you wrote:
>SO:
>
>What GTL?
>
>How much money?
>
>Any other minimum design limits?

Here's a suggestion:  according to G:T, the Rampart (GTL 12) is about
14MCr.   According to Star Mercs, the Intrepid Class Grav Tank (GTL12) is
about 15.6MCr.  

Seems to me that at GTL12, about 15MCr is probably a reasonable cost.

Alternatively, if you want GTL10, the Irmada is about 5MCr, and the
Instellarms Light Grav Tank is 4MCr. (The Medium is 8MCr).

Again, GTL10, 5MCr  seems to be reasonable.  

Unfortunately, I cannot find any published GTL10 or GTL12 atmosphere-only
fighters...  



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:07:42 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

BTW, if you're looking over the ABC story on flat-panel
speakers, also select the last story in the Technology
section entitled "Fuel Cells Break Through".

It posts details and diagrams of a British Columbia's
firm's development of the first commercially viable fuel
cell car engine. Nissan and Honda have already ordered
some. It uses natural air and methanol to produce 
electrical power with the only byproduct being pure, 
drinkable water. BC's transit minister drank some of the
engine exhaust.

Geez! The things that happen when I take a day off of
work...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:08:08 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: AHL?

Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL? 



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:18:32 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

AHL = Traveller Game 3, Azhanti High Lightning, adventure aboard an
Imperial starship

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>

: Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL?


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:24:33 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

At 12:26 AM 4/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
>If jump capability is delimited by gravity, 100D must be an approximation
>based around a 'typical mass' and the gravity a certain distance from the
>mass.
>
>So, anyone fancy a go at calculating the minimum gravity threshold after
>which jump is safe?
>
>I suppose what I'm getting at is that in some system 100D will be fine. In
>others *maybe* 95D. In a really bad one 100+D
>
>Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the limit closer?
>
>Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?

IIRC, it _is_ the 100D volume-based limit.  Regardless of mass.  Don't ask
why, it's just the way jumpspace works.  :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:31:25 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

You forgot to mention a "honking BIG" Imperial starship.  The supplement
came with complete deckplans for the ship, which is 60,000DT!!  Yikes!
Quite a playground >:D


>AHL = Traveller Game 3, Azhanti High Lightning, adventure aboard an
>Imperial starship
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>
>: Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL?
>
>
>       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
>    Leader of the Border Rebellion
>  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
>
>_________hosted_by___________
>          www.downport.com
> A domain for Traveller on the Web
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #407
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 408



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: #Traveller Undernet
Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: Misjumps
Re: Jump Limits
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Merchants...
Re: Merchants...
High Guard Spreadsheets?
Starship Showcase Website
Re: High Guard Spreadsheets?
Re: max accel
Re: High Guard Spreadsheets?
RE: Jump
Re: AHL?
Re: max accel
Re:Jump Projectors...
Re: Far Trader Economics
Re:  Jump Limits
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Jump Limits
re: AHL?
Re: Far Trader Economics
RL LEgal Question about Traveller.
AHL?
Re: AHL?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:31:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: #Traveller Undernet

At 06:49 AM 4/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>then get ye to the undernet, for Callahans exists on IRC too.
>I'm almost always inhabiting it and #traveller at the same time.

#callahans is my wife's regular hangout.. Which is why I tend to post
messages in larges bursts, since she's online the other 23 hours of the
day...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:35:53 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation Concepts

At 08:14 PM 4/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Wow, I hadn't thought about healthcare in space!  I suppose
>spaceborne hospitals and the like would be expensive and
>rather large affairs, and very useful for research and people
>who have excellent insurance...

For references, you might want to see the Sector General novels by James
White.  I've only read a couple, but they were good.  It centers around a
_huge_ space-based hospital, with facilities (IIRC) for thousands of races.  

It's probably a bit overkill for Traveller, but some of the books might
have good plot ideas, especially if you have players that are interested in
medicine.  An ambulance ship might be a possibility...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:40:18 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

At 08:39 PM 4/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>It doesn't make any difference where obstacles might be.  When you jump,
>you're not travelling in a straight line through normal space.  If
>you're in normal space at point A, and there is an object at point B,
>and on the other side of that object is point C, you can jump directly
>from A to C.  You don't pass through B, because B is in normal space,
>and you're in jump space, which doesn't correspond to normal space.  

Actually, both Far Trader and the Marc Miller commentary seem to indicate
that you _do_ travel in a straight line, and object B, if greater than your
ship, will drop you out of jumpspace at it's 100D limit.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:42:47 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

At 09:39 PM 4/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Don't forget the possible "ship destroyed" result, which I take to mean
>> that it never comes out of jump space.  Now if the ship isn't actually
>> destroyed, it's just stuck in jump space and the people aboard have as
>> long to live as they have life support.  As I recall, the expected
>> duration of jump -- even misjump -- is known to the ship at the moment
>> of jump, so the officers at least will know that they're never getting
>> out.  It would make for a very dark scenario.  I don't think I'd inflict
>> it on the players, unless I thought they'd enjoy it.  
>
>Well, consider that it *might* be one of those things where there's
>enough life support for fewer people than are on the ship. *That* will
>get ugly. 
>
>I also seem to recall at least one version of Traveller that a misjump
>table where the external and internal durations of a jump could be
>different. 
>
>So you come out of a misjump after a week ship's time only to find
>yourself in the *4th* Imperium. :-)

I'm currently running T4 M:0.  I'm considering doing just that to switch
the current players to the G:T....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:15:31 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

I wrote:

>Basically, to go with Canon you have to work with rate of change of gravity
>intensity, rather than absolute intensity.

This of course is rubbish, what was I thinking :(

Jump mechanics must work off distance and have little or no relation to mass to
stick with canon distances.

> 4.5E12 D     minimum mass black hole (6km diameter - 3 solar masses) 

I meant to say theoretical minimum stellar corpse black hole. 
Smaller black holes are theoretically possible of course.


I just thought I would flame myself, before someone else did :^)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:56:41 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

At 10:02 PM 4/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I'd like to have a program that keeps track of all this stuff, and
>allows for plotting courses both inside systems and between them.
>
>It'd probably be best to write it "generically" with the ability to
>convert things like planet info into the stats for various game
>systems.

As a starting point, you may want to look at :

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.html



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:22:28 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Merchants...

I've found the thread on Traveller Merchants fascinating. Could someone point 
me in the direction of 3w sites and/or publications I can use to follow  up?
Upfront Thanx,

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:44:27 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Merchants...

Maybe try the publications listed in the beginning of GT Far 
Trader..Like merchant prince and the traveller adventure...

Mike
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:03:36 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: High Guard Spreadsheets?

Has anyone out there made a HG design spread sheet?  I'm using Quattro
Pro, and thought I'd ask before starting the project myself.


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:10:44 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Starship Showcase Website

        The first exhibitor, Gilgamesh Shipyards, has setup thier area and
is now proudly displaying two designs.  Other exhibitors are expected to
arrive soon, and so are the crowds!  Drop by now to see the latest and
greatest available for the space lanes of the Imperium and beyond!

        "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/ssw_trav"

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:08:32 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: High Guard Spreadsheets?

I'm working on a MT design spreadsheet in Excel 97 and plan on making one
for HG.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


>Has anyone out there made a HG design spread sheet?  I'm using Quattro
>Pro, and thought I'd ask before starting the project myself.
>
>
>Jim Clem
>Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
>enemies.
>--Ferengi Rules of Acquisition
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:08:12 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 03:50 PM 4/6/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Only if the fighter  come into the atmosphere directly overhead.  Then it's
>a case of who shoots first and truest.  With any angle there will be blind
>spots and the likely hood of 0 angle is near 0.

Under GT, in an equal GTL fighter vs Grav tank duel, using existing designs
(Rampart vs Intrepid at GTL12, or Irmada vs. Instellarms Heavy), the
fighter can _never_ penetrate the Tank's armor with it's lasers.  OTOH, the
fighter can always stay totally out of range of the tank's fusion guns.
Thus, the only weapons that can still do anything are missiles (A SIM-12
can get through the Intrepid's side armor almost always), and both craft
have point defense...  This is all without dodging, which means that kills
are even less likely.  Therefore, the two really can't fight each other in
a meaningful way.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:16:41 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: High Guard Spreadsheets?

At 02:03 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Has anyone out there made a HG design spread sheet?  I'm using Quattro
>Pro, and thought I'd ask before starting the project myself.
>
>
>Jim Clem

        Hi, Jim!
        Check my website for an Excel version of an HG spreadsheet...  Its
constantly being tinkered with by myself, so if you like it, keep an eye on
the website for revisions....

        "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"  Pick the software button.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:18:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump

Leonard Erickson writes:
"<snipped>
>(Bruce Alan Macintosh writes)
> from A to C.  You don't pass through B, because B is in normal space,
> and you're in jump space, which doesn't correspond to normal space.  

Alas, Marc Miller disagrees. He's used exactly this sort of example in
the past. If the straight line linking your entry and exit point passes
thru the 100 diameter limit of any object, you are dumped out of jump
space at that point."

	I like Bruce's interpretation. It makes more sense to me,
	and it avoids all sorts of problems.

"Alas, Marc has never cleared up details like timing. Do you pop out
early? What if the object is in the way only part of the time taken by
the jump? 

The "simplest" way to do it would be to act as if the ship was moving
along the line at uniform speed. But then if you have something that's
in the way at midpoint, do you pop out early? Or do you pop out at the
end of the week? If the latter, *why* did you pop out? After all,
rescaling your movement to the shorter jump, means that you'd *miss*
the object (unless it was motionless)."

	As an added bonus, what if I plot a 1-week, 6-parsec
	jump that intentionally crosses the 100D limit 1
	parsec away? Do I get to do jump-1 in just over 1 day?
	What about sucessful jumps from within 100D: do you
	drop out of jump space when you make it to 100D of
	that same planet?

<snipped>
"Apparently, the curvature of realspace can interfere with jumpspace.
And according to Marc, the hex map *does* represent realspace."

	IMTU masses in real space do influence jump space, but
	there is not a one-to-one relationship between points
	in real space and those in jump space. Thus, it is not
	necessarily the masses on a straight "real space" line
	between A and B that one has to be concerned with.

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 14:19:30 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: AHL?

At 12:18 PM 4/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>AHL = Traveller Game 3, Azhanti High Lightning, adventure aboard an
>Imperial starship
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>
>: Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL?
thanks.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:28:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: max accel

Juliean Galak writes:
> Under GT, in an equal GTL fighter vs Grav tank duel, using existing designs
> (Rampart vs Intrepid at GTL12, or Irmada vs. Instellarms Heavy), the
> fighter can _never_ penetrate the Tank's armor with it's lasers.  OTOH, the
> fighter can always stay totally out of range of the tank's fusion guns.
> Thus, the only weapons that can still do anything are missiles (A SIM-12
> can get through the Intrepid's side armor almost always), and both craft
> have point defense...  This is all without dodging, which means that kills
> are even less likely.  Therefore, the two really can't fight each other in
> a meaningful way.

Note that range for the grav tanks is given for fire in atmosphere; multiply by
50 out of atmosphere (which still gives a max range of only around 2,000
miles).  The major effect of all this is that using a starship for recon over a
battlefield is a _bad_ idea, as a grav tank can punch holes in the armor of a
heavy cruiser.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:39:47 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re:Jump Projectors...

Jason Kemp wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Problems with these interpretations occur if you subscribe to the
J-drive model that requires hydrogen to be vented in order to
maintain the jump field integrity during the week-long trip through
Jumpspace.  ..........  Here's a kinda cheesy shot at explaining that

........

Like I said, my explanation is cheesy, but an explanation,
nonetheless.  I don't like it, but it was the best I could come up
with on only ten minutes of thought.  I wouldn't mind hearing
something better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here's my shot:

Jump Projectors are high TL devices.  Jump space has specific physical
characteristics, sometimes explained through the metaphor of "the weave".
For our explanation we will assume the GT explanation is OTU. The spacecraft
is contained by a bubble of hydrogen to isolate it from Jump Space during
the jump. (This is where much of the fuel consumed during jump is used. The
bubble is maintained by adding small amounts of hydrogen during the time in
Jump Space.)
The use of a hydrogen bubble is purely a specific technological answer to a
physics problem. i.e. isolating the 'real space' containing the spacecraft
from the general environment of Jump Space. Any number of other methods
might be used.
For example a Jump projector might project a ship into jump space by opening
the weave and then create a force field around the ship to isolate it from
Jump Space as it closes the weave. Obviously meant to be a nonlethal weapon,
or not a weapon at all.
Perhaps a Black Globe can provide the same jump space/real space isolation.
Which would explain why hydrogen is not required when using a Black Globe to
jump. (After all Black Globes are TL16 (GT) technology.)

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:00:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:

>No. A GT Beowulf costs 29MCr. Mortgage per month is 29/240 = 120 MCr/
>month, or
>60MCr/Jump.
>(58Mcr was based on my independant calculation of the price and was therefore
>generous).

Hmm. May I suggest that you consider using a bank for your starship
purchase, not a loan shark? ;-)

<serious>
Should that be kCr?
</serious>

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:02:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:  Jump Limits

"Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:
>An alternative is to remember that all things Jump related are VOLUME
>based instead of mass based.  Thus you need to have 100 dtons of ship
>minimum, and the 100 diameter limit is based on the VOLUME of the
>planet/star/body.
>Just another thought process coming from left field...

Which has some interesting implications for non-spherical bodies.

Eg on Earth you could jump closer by climbing up above the poles.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:05:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:

>Domonic Mooney wrote:

Dom*i*nic, or Dom (or Dim when I mistype, also Demonic according to one
spellchecker...)

>>Anyone more gearheaded than me want a go at this?

Thanks for the post - David JW sent me some info too.

Looks interesting.... I thought we'd done this before. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:46:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:
>I really think that my solution fits the bill perfectly; it falls back to
>the 100d rule in most cases so those refs not interested in the finicky
>details can ignore it altogether or use it only as a gamesetting tidbit for
>realism but never actually calculate it. I can see no major problems with
>it (except that Marc didn't like it for whatever reason) so feel free to
>use it.

I like the idea - snipped and saved.....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:58:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: AHL?

 Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:

>Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL?

Azhanti High Lightning - a boxed Traveller (CT) supplement which detailed
the 60kdt High Lightning Class Frontier Cruisers, with Deck Plans,
Scenarios and a combat system

Further details in Tim Collinson's excellent Traveller Bibliography.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:28:11 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

>John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>No. A GT Beowulf costs 29MCr. Mortgage per month is 29/240 = 120 MCr/
>>month, or
>>60MCr/Jump.
>>(58Mcr was based on my independant calculation of the price and was
therefore
>>generous).
>
>Hmm. May I suggest that you consider using a bank for your starship
>purchase, not a loan shark? ;-)
>
><serious>
>Should that be kCr?
></serious>
>
>Dom
>
I was thinking the same thing, Dom. That's gonna be some expensive cargo to
pay for that ship!

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:33:51 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: RL LEgal Question about Traveller.

Hi.  I'm interested in putting some GT designs on the Web, and am
wondering:  Do I need either SJGs or FarFuture's permission?  Do I need to
post specific acknowledgments (of trademarks, etc)?  Please let me know...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:20:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: AHL?

> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> Subject: AHL?
> 
> Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL? 

AHL refers to Azhanti High Lightning, a class of 60,000 ton cruisers. 
GDW published the deckplans in 15mm scale with an individual-level
combat game (called Azhanti High Lightning).  The Arrival Vengeance is a
Lightning class cruiser in the TNE module of the same name.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:06:03 +0000
From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@cviog.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: AHL?

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> > Subject: AHL?
> >
> > Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL?
>
> AHL refers to Azhanti High Lightning, a class of 60,000 ton cruisers.
> GDW published the deckplans in 15mm scale with an individual-level
> combat game (called Azhanti High Lightning).  The Arrival Vengeance is a
> Lightning class cruiser in the TNE module of the same name.
>
> --Glenn

Has anyone written the GURPS stats for this ship yet? I would love to see
them.

Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger - Computer Support Specialist IV
Carl Vinson Institute of Government - University of Georgia
dbasinge@cviog.uga.edu - http://xboat.cviog.uga.edu/~dbasinge

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #408
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 6 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 409



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AHL?
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re:  Jump Limits
Re: AHL?
Judges' Guild
Re: AHL?
S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)
Re: AHL?
Re: High Guard Spreadsheets?
RL LEgal Question about Traveller.
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #407
Re: Jump Limits
Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:35:24 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: AHL?

Here's my take on it - from the perspective of the IISS owned ones...

Type CF Azhanti High Lightning Class 60,000-ton Frontier Cruiser  -  TL
11

The Azhanti High Lightning is woefully obsolete by Imperial Navy
standards and
was declared surplus in 1048. Although no longer fit for action in the
line of
battle, several were transferred to the IISS for it's uses. While middle
sized by
Imperial Navy standards, this is far and away the largest ship that the
IISS
operates and is considered a highly prized posting.

Taking advantage of it's long legs and significant armaments, the IISS
uses it's
AHLs to search for viable routes across the rifts and to patrol systems
that
have been interdicted for the protection of their indigenous life.

The AHLs in IISS service retain their fittings and capacitors for a
black globe
generator, though the generators themselves were retained by the
Imperial Navy.
The AHL is manned by 395 scouts, 150 commandos of the IISSs Special
Services
Section (S-3), and up to 80 pilots, depending upon the mix of small
craft on
board for a given mission.

The AHL Class does have fuel scoops, but these are only for use in the
most
extreme of emergencies, due to the ship's unstreamlined configuration.
Refueling
is done ordinarily by the ships 4 fuel shuttles.

All but one of the missile bays were converted into lab spaces. The
remaining bay only caries probes and other non-weapon ordinance.

60,000 ton USL Hull, DR 8000 Hull, DR 4000 Turrets, Fuel Scoops,Radical
Stealth,
Radical Emissions Cloaking, Complete Compartmentalization, 15 space
Command
Bridge, 2 Engineering, 10,000 Maneuver, 3,600 Jump, 30,000 Jump fuel,
40x10 space
Vehicle Bay, 40x10 space Space Dock (Former Fighter launch tubes), 3x100
space
Vehicle Bay (for misc. small craft), 4x400 space Vehicle Bay (for Fuel
Shuttles),
400 Staterooms, 150 Low Berths, 10 Sickbays, 100 Labs, 120 Utility, 300
Fuel
Processors (2400/hr, 12.5 hours for full load of fuel.), 400 Cargo.

*Offensive Systems: Spinal Mount PAW (6dx10000, 1/2d:48,000,
max:146,400) 190
405-MJ triple laser turrets (5dx100(2), 1/2d:26,022, max:78,068) 40 1GJ
dual
Fusion Gun Turrets (6dx500, 12d:4,200, max: 12,600)

*Defensive Systems: 130 Triple Sandcaster Turrets 8 Nuke Damper modules
- - 25 mile
range Meson Screen - DR 16,864 Mount for Black Globe

*Statistics: Emass:269KT LMass: 310KT  HP: 1452000

*Performance: Accel: 4g empty/ 2g loaded, Jump 5, Airspeed: N/A


"Mike Basinger" wrote:
"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

>> > From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>> > Subject: AHL?
>> >
>> > Sorry, newbie question:  What's AHL?
>>
>> AHL refers to Azhanti High Lightning, a class of 60,000 ton cruisers.
>> GDW published the deckplans in 15mm scale with an individual-level
>> combat game (called Azhanti High Lightning).  The Arrival Vengeance is a
>> Lightning class cruiser in the TNE module of the same name.
>>
>> --Glenn
>
>Has anyone written the GURPS stats for this ship yet? I would love to see
>them.
>
>Mike

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 13:57:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking
> 
> At 08:39 PM 4/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >It doesn't make any difference where obstacles might be.  When you jump,
> >you're not travelling in a straight line through normal space.  If
[my own comments deleted]
> 
> Actually, both Far Trader and the Marc Miller commentary seem to indicate
> that you _do_ travel in a straight line, and object B, if greater than your
> ship, will drop you out of jumpspace at it's 100D limit.

I haven't seen T5, nor Far Trader, but this appears to be a change in
canon, and it will make jump travel more difficult to implement.  I
don't think I'll follow it in my Traveller universe.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:07:09 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re:  Jump Limits

>>>>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:02:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:  Jump Limits

"Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:
>An alternative is to remember that all things Jump related are VOLUME
>based instead of mass based.  Thus you need to have 100 dtons of ship
>minimum, and the 100 diameter limit is based on the VOLUME of the
>planet/star/body.
>Just another thought process coming from left field...

Which has some interesting implications for non-spherical bodies.

Eg on Earth you could jump closer by climbing up above the poles.

Dom
>>>>
The difference should only be a few tens of miles IIRC.  It is true
that the spinning of the not-quite-inflexible Earth creates what I have
heard called an oblate spheroid.  The differrence was nowhere near even
a tenth of a diameter I am pretty sure.  I don't have the exact
measurments to hand though...
If we continue to follow this path, then some other possibilities come
to mind.  Assume for a moment you have a very large ship (100 000 dtons
to match what I calculated with in a previous post).  A 458 ft diameter
sphere would contain that dtonnage.  You would need to be 8.67 miles
away from it in any direction to jump if you were a smaller ship (say a
100 dton scout).  If on the other hand you had a very long and thin
ship, the numbers would change.  For instance, if your 100 000 dton ship
were 1 dton high, 4 dtons wide, and 25 000 dtons long (just to be a bit
ridiculous), you could jump from 300 meters above the ship, 1200 meters
to the side of the ship, or 3 750 000 meters from the ends of the ship. 
The long-thin measurements are based on a  CT dton measurment of 3
meters tall, 3 meters wide, and 1.5 meters long.  [Anti-flame note:  I
know I have different measurements systems used here, but I would rather
not bother converting back and forth when I have a figure in one
measurement system in my head.]
Anyway, as my (extreme) example shows, this way of looking at things
can have some wild effects in extreme cases, but most bodies you could
consider nearly spheres from 100 diameters away.  On the other hand,
this does encourage the idea of Jumping from and to a spot outside of
the ecliptic to minimize real space transit time and minimize the issues
of Jump masking.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:38:44 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

Just read this and had a question about S-3.  Are there previous mentions of
them or are they coming out in "First In" (haven't read all of the play
test)??

When I finally have time to do the vac-formed armor, that'd be an
interesting set to do (assuming it wasn't "sanitized" of course)  >:D

Best,
Jesse



From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
[snippage]
The AHL is manned by 395 scouts, 150 commandos of the IISSs Special
>Services
>Section (S-3), and up to 80 pilots, depending upon the mix of small
>craft on
>board for a given mission.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:47:27 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Judges' Guild

	The Judges Guild seems to be back in business.  It is actually the 
original company, run by the original folks, coming back to life.   They have 
alot of the old material which they are going to sell in order to get the 
company back on its feet.  I'm telling you this because they do have a 
selection of 4-5 old Judges' Guild Traveller materials which are for sale, in 
the original shrink wrap.  You can find them at 

		www.judgesguild.com

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:55:01 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: AHL?

At 02:38 PM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Just read this and had a question about S-3.  Are there previous mentions of
>them or are they coming out in "First In" (haven't read all of the play
>test)??
>
>When I finally have time to do the vac-formed armor, that'd be an
>interesting set to do (assuming it wasn't "sanitized" of course)  >:D

S-3 is discussed for about a page in Star Mercs. (p24)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:19:01 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Just read this and had a question about S-3.  Are there previous mentions of
> them or are they coming out in "First In" (haven't read all of the play
> test)??
> 
S-3 is covered on page 24 of GT Star Mercs.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:33:23 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

Ah-HA!  Have the book, but I just haven't had time to read it (too busy
making artwork for the books :)    I'll have to go check it out tonight.

Jesse


[snip]
>S-3 is discussed for about a page in Star Mercs. (p24)
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
[sig snip, sorry]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:41:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: High Guard Spreadsheets?

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
>        Check my website for an Excel version of an HG spreadsheet...  Its
>constantly being tinkered with by myself, so if you like it, keep an eye on
>the website for revisions....

If anyone can get a single pane, no macro version of an Excel 95 (or
earlier) sheet together I'd appreciate it (then I can convert it to
ClarisWorks 5 for us non-Excel MacOS users).

Otherwise, when I get the mythical free time I'll do it myself. I'm just
lazy////!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:44:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RL LEgal Question about Traveller.

Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:

>Hi.  I'm interested in putting some GT designs on the Web, and am
>wondering:  Do I need either SJGs or FarFuture's permission?  Do I need to
>post specific acknowledgments (of trademarks, etc)?  Please let me know...

Hmm. We have disclaimers in the BITS free stuff by Rob Prior, such as 101
Starships Release 2 (http://www.bits.org.uk/ on the archive page).

There is someone at SJG who deals with licencing (Reese?) and you can
probably find the contact on their website.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:07:31 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

Leonard Erickson writes:

>The "simplest" way to do it would be to act as if the ship was moving
>along the line at uniform speed. But then if you have something that's
>in the way at midpoint, do you pop out early? Or do you pop out at the
>end of the week? If the latter, *why* did you pop out? After all,
>rescaling your movement to the shorter jump, means that you'd *miss*
>the object (unless it was motionless). 
> 
>I can't come up with good answers and Marc never gave any. 

Here's what I would suggest: You do follow a line in realspace that has a
1-to-1 relationship with your path in jump space. If your realspace route
intercept an obstacle along the way, your ship is "grabbed" and held
immobile for the rest of your time in jumpspace. When you emerge, 7 days
after entering jumpspace, you are at the jump limit of the object.

So if there is an object at the halfway spot 3.5 days after you enter jump,
you will get caught. If it's there before or after that time, you avoid it.

I prefer the old interpretation of how jumps work, but I do think the model
above will solve the problems you raise.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:39:16 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Phil Kitching writes:

>However, whilst checking this info, I did note that *none* of the
>design systems make any comments that drop tanks are late TL15 or TL16.

Right. They can be built at any starport capable of building jump ships,
so the logical inference is that they are TL 9 (or less).

>So if you allow drop tanks, it becomes clear that they have been
>around for several hundred years and should be completely integrated
>into the economy. The TNS entry would appear to be at varience with 
>the Traveller rules.

I disagree. Just because your society is TL X dosen't meant that you know
how to make everything that is possible to make at TL X. It just means that
IF you know how to make it, you can. Fusion+ was an example of this.
Something that the Rule of Man could have made if they had known how to,
only they didn't, because no one had found out how. Similarily the special
capacitors needed to make drop tanks practical wasn't invented until the
late 11th Century TI.

>It should be possible to build drop tanks at any TL, starports A or B
>(and probably C), even if the jump drive itself needs a higher tech.
> 
>This should mean that even the Spinward Marches should have plenty of
>"Drop Routes" by 1120.
 
Right, but just how many would depend on economic details that hasn't been
explored yet.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:13:37 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #407

> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:07:42 -0500
> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
> Subject: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
>
> BTW, if you're looking over the ABC story on flat-panel
> speakers, also select the last story in the Technology
> section entitled "Fuel Cells Break Through".
>
> It posts details and diagrams of a British Columbia's
> firm's development of the first commercially viable fuel
> cell car engine. Nissan and Honda have already ordered
> some. It uses natural air and methanol to produce
> electrical power with the only byproduct being pure,
> drinkable water. BC's transit minister drank some of the
> engine exhaust.
>
> Geez! The things that happen when I take a day off of
> work...

The company is called Ballard Technologies.  They're just down the road from where
I live.  Daimler / Chrysler have already produced a car using the Ballard Cell,
Ford and GM have also invested money into the company.  I beleive the vehicle
produced by Daimler / Chrysler is the "EV4"  or "EVA4"

I've driven behind one of the busses there are three or four of them operating here
and three or four working for the Chicago Transit Authority.  Interesting note /
effect for a game, because these vehicles produce only water as an exaust they
leave big trials of steam behind them on cold days...

DS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:13:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Dear Folks -

Jump limit based on gravity is not a new idea. It may even classify as a
Done To Death item, since Peter (below) says it was first posted to the
list in Jan 1995. As you can see, the last time it was posted was October
last year. I dug it out of my files for Dom's sake, and he suggested that I
forward it to the TML as well.

- ------------------------------
1998 #965

Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 19:00:21 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Jumping from zero planetary diameters (long)

Going through some old disks I found a draft  document  that  was
posted to the TML back in January 1995.  Anyway, I finally got it
finished it and thought it might be of interest.



Jump Drive and the 100 Diameter Limit
=====================================

Here's a thought or two ...

1) The jump drive's  "100  diameter"  safe  jumping  distance  is
   supposed to be due to the gravity from large masses  affecting
   the ability of the jump drive to form a jump field  correctly.
   But gravity will vary with  planetary  density.  According  to
   "From Port to Jump-point" (JTAS 22) this number is a thumbnail
   rule anyway so what's the real rule?

2) In  MT  the  jump  task  is  'Routine'  outside  this   limit,
   'Difficult' between 10 and  100  diameters,  and  'Formidable'
   within 10 diameters.  Each of these are a gap of 4 on the dice
   roll, yet  the  effect  is  described  as  gradual  ("Starship
   Operator's  Manual  Vol  1")  ...  so  does  that   mean   its
   'Difficult+2' at 50 diameters?

I propose that the phrase "100 diameter limit" is merely  a  rule
of thumb provided by ship's pursers to their passengers and  that
seasoned space travellers have a more accurate value for the  MSD
(minimum safe distance) to form a jump point.

First some  boring  math  so  you  can  follow  my  reasoning  if
interested (since "G" is used in the formula below, the  unit  of
"G" is expressed in "gees" to avoid confusion)

    Using the formula

        L=64(M/G)^0.5

    and

        R=8D

    from the original LBB rule books  (where  L  is  distance  in
    mapping units, M is mass in earth masses,  G  is  gravity  in
    gees, R is world radius in mapping units, D is world UPP size
    code) you can deduce that 1 mapping unit  =  62.5  miles  (or
    approx 100 km as stated in the original book).  So to express
    the formula for L in miles ...

        L(in miles)=4000(M/G)^0.5

    or put another way

        G=M/(L/4000)^2

    Not wanting to be too terra-centric lets pick  Vland  as  our
    reference example.  (As an aside the specified mass for Vland
    given in "Aliens Vol 1: Vilani & Vargr" is incorrect -  given
    a diameter of 14,850 km and a density of 1.02 the mass should
    be 1.5661792.)

    So G at 100 diameters is 2.94185e-5 gees.  Remember from your
    high school physics that 1 gee is 9.80665 m/s/s and  you  get
    G=2.88497e-4 m/s/s.

    Now because the the chance of a world being exact  like  that
    is small lets  use  some  pseudo-science  to  pull  a  little
    slight-of-hand.  The  universally  constant  speed  of  light
    c=2.99792458e8 m/s and so G/c is  9.62322e-13  ...  thats  so
    close to 1e-12 that maybe it should be!  Now say  that  space
    stress is measured in units of S or in this case pS (p='pico'
    =1e-12) where 1pS=3.05703e-5 gees.

    So the 1pS  ('one pico ess')  limit  is  the  so-called  "100
    diameter' limit for  Vland.  Recalculating  back  gives  98.1
    diameters.

So what was the point of all that  (apart  from  wearing  out  my
calculator)?  Calculate the 1pS boundary for Terra  and  you  get
91.3 diameters ... not 100.

Definition: Minimum safe distance to initiate Jump is  any  point
            in space where the  gravitational  stress  factor  is
            less than 1pS.

Definition: 1pS is the stress on space by a  gravitational  force
            of 3.05703e-5 gees.

Okay, so now we've dealt with the first point and  can  add  some
colour to individual systems.

                 Sample Minimum Safe Distances (MSD)

    World   Icy Body   Rocky Body   Molten Core   Heavy Core
    Size    (k=0.32)    (k=0.64)      (k=0.96)     (k=1.45)
    --------------------------------------------------------
      S        6.5         9.1          11.2         13.8
      1       18.3        25.9          31.8         39.0
      2       25.9        36.7          44.9         55.2
      3       31.8        44.9          55.0         67.6
      4       36.7        51.9          63.5         78.1
      5       41.0        58.0          71.0         87.3
      6       44.9        63.5          77.8         95.6
      7       48.5        68.6          84.0        103.3
      8       51.9        73.3          89.8        110.4
      9       55.0        77.8          95.3        117.1
      A       58.0        82.0         100.4        123.4

    MSD in  planetary  diameters  at  1pS  boundary  (incorrectly
    referred to as "100 diameter limit")


    Other Bodies               Size     MSD
    ---------------------------------------
    Small Gas Giant (k=0.20)     60   112.3
    Large Gas Giant (k=0.20)    170   189.0
    Star (Sol)                  865   482.6

    Note that Sol's MSD of 482.6 is equavalent to 4.49 AU (almost
    as far as Jupiter's orbit)!

Repeating this process for the "10 diameter" limit  and  we  find
its actually the 100 pS boundary.  Hey, the numbers  go  up  with
the difficulty!  A geometric progression gives a step of 3.162277
or ...

                Jump Difficulty Table

         Stress Factor      MSD   Difficulty
    -------------------------------------------
          < 1 pS           100%   Routine
         1pS -       3pS    56%   Routine +1
         3pS -      10pS    32%   Routine +2
        10pS -      32pS    18%   Routine +3
        32pS -     100pS    10%   Difficult
       100pS -     316pS     6%   Difficult +1
       316pS -   1,000pS     3%   Difficult +2
     1,000pS -   3,162pS     2%   Difficult +3
     3,162pS -  10,000pS     1%   Formidable
    10,000pS -  31,623pS          Formidable +1
    31,623pS - 100,000pS          Formidable +2

    The MSD column assumes only one distorting object.

So if your players are running for the "100  diameter"  MSD  jump
point while being persued but for feel the need to go early, just
compare their distance with the  table  above  to  determine  the
actual risk at that point.

Another issue:  Are  Lagrange  points  (points  of  gravitational
stability) safe jump points  within  the  1pS  boundary?  No.  In
none of the published Traveller works is  there  any  mention  of
this.  The term  "stress"  is  important,  at  these  points  the
gravitational forces may be in balance but the fabric of space is
still stressed (like the rope in a tug-o-war between  two  evenly
matched teams).  Therefore, even when two or  more  gravitational
sources are balanced their effects are additive.  Compute the  pS
value  of  all  likely  objects  and  add  them  together  before
consulting the Jump Difficulty Table.

     Range Stress Table

     MSD   Stress Factor
    --------------------
    100%       1.000
     95%       1.108
     90%       1.235
     85%       1.384
     80%       1.563
     75%       1.778
     70%       2.041
     65%       2.367
     60%       2.778
     55%       3.306
     50%       4.000
     45%       4.938
     40%       6.250
     35%       8.163
     30%      11.111
     25%      16.000
     20%      25.000
     15%      44.444
     10%     100.000
      5%     400.000

Also note that this space stress does not simply end at 1pS,  but
continues out indefinately getting smaller  and  smaller.  It  is
theoretically possible to be beyond MSD for all objects yet their
combined gravitational pulls to still exert more than 1pS!

    Extended Range Stress Table

        MSD   Stress Factor
       --------------------
       200%       0.250
       190%       0.277
       180%       0.309
       170%       0.346
       160%       0.391
       150%       0.444
       140%       0.510
       130%       0.592
       120%       0.694
       110%       0.826

For example, at 140% MSD the stress factor  is  0.510.  So  if  a
starship were at 140% MSD for one planet and 140% MSD for another
planet, the total stress factor would be 1.100.  This  makes  the
jump task 'Routine+1'.

One final issue: When player characters are  feeling  particulaly
suicidal/desperate/destructive they sometimes wonder  what  would
happen if they tried to jump while still landed in the  starport.
On  a  1  gee  planet  the  stress  factor  at  ground  level  is
32,711.463pS which makes such a task 'Formidable+2'.

... Now you know!



Regards PLST
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/personal/traveller
"Rome wasn't burned in a day"
- ------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:28:04 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)

- ----------
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)
> Date: Tuesday, 06 April, 1999 6:19 PM
> 
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> > 
> > Just read this and had a question about S-3.  Are there previous
mentions of
> > them or are they coming out in "First In" (haven't read all of the play
> > test)??
> > 
> S-3 is covered on page 24 of GT Star Mercs.
> 
> <<snip>>

They get much more detailed treatment, including one very cool vignette, in
First In.

I gather that they are not new to GT, however.  Anyone know where they do
come from?

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #409
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 7 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 410



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)
Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)
S-3 in Book 6 (a follow-up)
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: AHL?
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank
Re: max accel
Re: AHL?
Re: RL LEgal Question about Traveller.
The Matrix
Re: IgNoble Etiquette 
Re: max accel 
re: Far Trader Economics 
Re: T5 Jump Masking
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
RE: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: Jump Limits
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: AHL?
re: T5 Jump Masking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:59:38 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)

>I gather that they are not new to GT, however.  Anyone know where they do
>come from?

Good question, first I've heard of them, but don't feel like digging
through to my copy of "Scouts" (totally buried) to check it.  I just pulled
"Star Mercs" out and it sounds like a great setting for a campaign!

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:13:23 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> >I gather that they are not new to GT, however.  Anyone know where they do
> >come from?
> 
> Good question, first I've heard of them, but don't feel like digging
> through to my copy of "Scouts" (totally buried) to check it.  I just pulled
> "Star Mercs" out and it sounds like a great setting for a campaign!
> 
Book 6, page 6:

  The _Security Branch_ is charged with providing security and law
enforcement for the Scout Service.  Security Branch Scouts serve as
police enforcers on Scout property, as commandos or shipboard light
troops, for special Scout activities, and as clandestine agents for
Intelligence Branch.

In other words, the concept was described in Book 6, although not given
the S-3 name as such.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:27:27 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: S-3 in Book 6 (a follow-up)

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> Zane H. Healy wrote:
> >
> > >I gather that they are not new to GT, however.  Anyone know where they do
> > >come from?
> >
> > Good question, first I've heard of them, but don't feel like digging
> > through to my copy of "Scouts" (totally buried) to check it.  I just pulled
> > "Star Mercs" out and it sounds like a great setting for a campaign!
> >
> Book 6, page 6:
> 
>   The _Security Branch_ is charged with providing security and law
> enforcement for the Scout Service.  Security Branch Scouts serve as
> police enforcers on Scout property, as commandos or shipboard light
> troops, for special Scout activities, and as clandestine agents for
> Intelligence Branch.
> 
> In other words, the concept was described in Book 6, although not given
> the S-3 name as such.
> 
The fact that the Security Branch falls under Operations, as opposed to
the Field Service, backs up the description of S-3 as a quasi-military
force, since Operations uses a formal rank structure.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 21:33:12 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

Humm, I'm no Jesse but I have dabbled in deck plans, and a hand drawn
exterior isn't beyond me (or maybe Coreldraw). Unfortunately time is a
premium for about the next month  :< . Anyway, anyone willing to
collaborate, and not in any real hurry, let me know. My own design
skills are, at best, rusty, and I've never got the hang of the new
weapons stats...

Mike

meow@advancenet.net wrote:
> 
> I will also do designs for those wanting to exhibit, I'm not anything
> even vaguely hallucinating an artist, but I do a fair job of designing
> most any ship, using High Guard or GT preferably

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:34:18 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

>From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
>
>Here's my take on it - from the perspective of the IISS owned ones...
>
>Type CF Azhanti High Lightning Class 60,000-ton Frontier Cruiser  -  TL
>11
[snip]
>The AHL is manned by 395 scouts, 150 commandos of the IISSs Special
>Services
>Section (S-3), and up to 80 pilots, depending upon the mix of small
>craft on
>board for a given mission.

Thanks, the AHL writeup was good stuff..  However, I suspect that 150 S-3
scouts is way too many.  I'd expect a mix of conventional security branch
scouts and a small number of S-3s (maybe three or four 5-8 sophont teams). 
These are very elite troops and should be pretty rare.  

Strictly IMTU, of course, but I'd be surprised to find 150 S-3 scouts in a
single sector.  If there are more than a couple of teams in a subsector,
something very odd is going on.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:41:16 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>The Concorde also requires extravagantly long runways, sucks down fuel
>like a '69 Plymouth Road Runner Superbird and (critically for most
>airports)is enormously noisy.

No longer than a 747-400 at full load; granted; granted.

>The interior is cramped, the tickets are hideously expensive, and
>consequently it has a hard time attracting passengers. 


The interior is just fine (then again, I'm only 5'7"); tickets are -
expensive if you buy scheduled tickets; and runs at a profit.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:38:36 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

SD Mooney wrote:

>Just taking a step back from your current debate - couldn't drop tanks be
>likened to Concorde in the RW?
>
>Expensive to produce (comparatively to standard aircraft)
>Faster (longer range in Traveller terms)
>Public failure (eg the Russian equivalent which failed at an Airshow)
>Small number of adoptees (Air France and BA)
>
>Concorde has been around 20-30 years now and I don't see a rush by
>manufacturers or airlines to buy equivalents.

Of course, Concorde sales were also hit by politics (US firms not
ordering it in favour of the vapourware Boeing SST). Concorde now runs
at a profit for BA.

There is also quite some interest in the next-generation SST. It may end
up being a touch slower than Concorde; but with a higher passenger load.
This is the main snag with Concorde - only 100 seats.

[Drop tanks]

In the RW, military aircraft use drop tanks because there is a military
requirement (more range) that is too expensive to meet by making the
aircraft bigger. Passenger aircraft just get bigger until range isn't a
problem. If you have an old aircraft - you have a stopover. If your
marketing team are clever, they sell this as an advantage. The expense
of drop tanks (qualifying wing hardpoints for fuel, ensuring clean
separation, cost of the tanks themselves, risk to the carrying aircraft)
isn't worth it for commercial carriers.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 22:39:30 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

At 03:55 PM 03/04/99 +1000, you wrote:
>It is a part of Traveller canon that large amounts of fuel are required
>to propel a ship into jump space and keep it there in a useful fashion.
>
>It is also accepted that some of the fuel required is used to charge up
>the jump drive. This begs the question : why not use the jump capacitors
>as an accumulator bank for 'the mother of all weapons systems'?

        Hi, Robert!
        As a point, in Supp7, the X-Boat design therein specifically has
*no* powerplant...  *every* joule of energy required for jumping comes from
the J-drives.  Further, apparently the computer and life-support do not
require power-plant support somehow...

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
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	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:55:28 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: max accel

Dear Folks -

Charles said:
>By the way I conceed that a 100mcr space fighter is likely to beat a 20mcr
>air plane but what about a 100mcr one or 5 20 mcr air planes?

This IS the premise that the JTAS Amber Zone "Found" uses. It pits 12
"Foxhound" fighters (ie. F-14's) against *three* Ramparts.

BTW, something I noticed when checking out the Striker conversion: the
Ramparts in the scenario are stated as having AF 60. This is NOT POSSIBLE
in Striker - at least, once the errata is applied. Originally, HG armour
factor 0 was equated to Striker AF 60. However, the Striker errata reduced
this to AF 40. Significantly, the Rampart in Referee's Companion has 40G
armour, meaning that this is the corrected version. The "Gyrfalcon" missile
(Pen 65) now has an even better chance against the Rampart... and even the
"normal" A2A missiles in COACC might have a chance.

A few interesting things from COACC: COACC contains the TL 15 "Magnum"
fighter - but the rating is in starship format! The technology tables don't
really show anything above TL 10, so perhaps the designer also believes the
"air-merges-to-grav" argument and didn't bother about adding anything else.

So, if you want to throw two comparisions against each other, use the RC
Rampart and the COACC Magnum and see what you get.

[However, I'm not sure what rules you would use - MT's modified "high
guard" starship rules, or COACC's horribly broken air-to-air combat rules].
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:02:50 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: AHL?

Dear Folks -

Jesse mentioned:
>You forgot to mention a "honking BIG" Imperial starship.  The supplement
>came with complete deckplans for the ship, which is 60,000DT!!  Yikes!
>Quite a playground >:D

So, when do we see your 3D version? The Navy supplement for GURPS?

;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:19:35 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: RL LEgal Question about Traveller.

Dear Folks -

Julian asked about permission to publish Trav items. For Marc's official
response, see my site under "Hyphen's Traveller Pages" - there is a link to
Marc's general letter he emailed to everyone.

As for SJG, I don't know - you will need to look through their site (unless
a list member beats you to it). I *believe8 they have a Sensible Usage
Policy somewhere.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:12 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: The Matrix

Did anyone see this movie?  I thought it was pretty good.  And a scary look 
at what could be happening on some world behind the Black Curtain (maybe the 
entire area of Lucan's "Safe," which is a very scary thought) or another 
Virus controlled world out in the Wilds somewhere.

Can someone give me some FF&S #s on how much power a human could provide at 
various stages in its life?  I'm thinking you need at least a low berth's 
worth of equipment w/ a human plugged into that, neural jacks et al...  I 
should've payed more attn to the "manly man" thread...  

Anyone have any thoughts on on operating in a computer environment like that? 
 I'm meaning like "bending teh rules" w/ super jumps etc.  I'd take it the 
"Neo" (aka "The One") has a high level in Computer Empathy...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:08 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette 

> >After all in the Seventeenth century you were much more likely to find a
> >nobleman among the colonist in Jamestown or among the European Fleets in 
the
> >new world than you were to find one in rural France or the in the villages
> >of the Italian Alps.
> 
> But how likely were you to find a king or an emperor? Or even just princes?
> No doubt there were some (princes, I mean, not kings and emperors), but I
> don't think it quite amounted to 3%. You see, that's one of the problems
> with the fact that Imperial noblemen have titles that LOOKS like those we
> are familiart with from history. But an Imperial Marquis is often a world
> ruler. That's more powerful than any man in the history of Earth has ever
> been. How many of those would you expect to run into in your average days'
> travelling?

Yeah, but excepting the high population worlds, the pop density is pretty 
low, w/ most of a world unpopulated excepting a few notable centers.  The 
average Imperial Marquis is not what your comment would make him out to be, 
no?  But rather something comparable to his 17th century, don't you think?

> >A Baron who has income from an estate or business interests is much more
> >likely to be Travelling offworld than a working stiff with a family.  Many
> >children of the nobility, who may hold courtesy rank of their own are also
> >likely to be travelling, either on the Grand Tour or simply to be out from
> >underfoot (see Remittance Man [GT]).
> 
> But how many of them are likely to be serving as enlisted men or customs
> inspectors?

LOL.  It doesn't sound like there would be many.  I've always had the 
impression that the Imperial nobility didn't behave like medieval nobility.  
There isn't a "born to rule" philosophy so much, rather than the Imperial 
nobility were well raised and trained well to do their jobs, by the 
priveledge of their upbringing.  But nothing that implies that simply because 
someone is even a Duke's child, that he is automatically put in charge of 
armies or fleets, etc.  I can see an automatic commission or something, 
though.  Maybe the enlisted nobles are bastard children or something? 
Embarrassing to have at home, but legally (or culturally) entitled to certain 
rights.  That sort of thing.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:05 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: max accel 

> >You did see hte part where I said I've seen in many games where a TL-12 
> >Wildbat (much less effective than a TL-15 Rampart) beats TL-9 aircraft, 
> >didn't you?  It happened in the course of my campaigns already.  I can 
> 
> Yes, but that is not relavent to my statement about equal tech level.  I
> have already stated the a tech level difference would be telling.

I know.  That's the only combat of this sort that I've run, which is what you 
asked.
At TL-13, grav vehicles, aircraft, and spacecraft (though NOT starships) 
merge and as someone else has pointed out, your 'aircraft' w/ all the TL-15 
technology and equipment only differs from a space fighter by the insignia on 
the pilots uniform.  (In fact, is part of the world's COACC IIRC). 

If you want equal TL (GTL12, I presume), you'll need an aircraft design (a 
design that is apocryphal, as far as canon is concerned), which should be 
somewhere, by a GV2 designer somewhere, though G:T's specific nuances may be 
needed.

> >As you yourself have said, things are rarely equal.  If they are, someone 
> >isn't doing their job.  That's probably the best way to test it though.  
The 
> >basic point is that an airframed spacecraft is an overvaluable and 
> >overcapable aircraft of the same TL.  It likely costs alot more than the 
pure 
> >aircraft but is a helluva lot more capable.  That's what this thread 
proved.
> > 
> 
> Actually this thread has 'proven' nothing only discussed.  We have not set
> criteria for a test and now that I have attemped to do so you say it's
> pointless?  What gives?  'More capable'?  Under what conditions?  Can a TCS
> beat a TC defense force?

Sure I have, but you don't have the gaming group that could do it (u only 
need one person.  One (you) to play the aircraft, one to play the space 
fighter.  TCS? Trillion Credit Squadron?  That's far different than the role 
playing scale rules, and is more statistically based rather than skill based. 
 The exact details, I'm not sure.  A skirmish or raid type scenario, I'm 
thinking, not anything on a planetary invasion scale.  Space fighter(s) comes 
to give air support or something (and for some reason can't do it from orbit 
or beyond) and air fighter(s) move to intercept.  U want them at the same TL, 
fine.  Money?  To have an effective space fighter, it'll cost alot more than 
a comparable grav vehicle (which by TTL15/GTL12 canon says is pretty much the 
same thing).  Maybe 2 space fighters vs their equivalent value in atmosphere 
craft.

> By the way I conceed that a 100mcr space fighter is likely to beat a 20mcr
> air plane but what about a 100mcr one or 5 20 mcr air planes?

Ah. I must've missed it.  That's what the whole debate was about.  I would 
think the space fighter would at least have a wingman or battle buddy or 
something...  Guessing on prices will only work after the designs are 
possessed...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:10 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: re: Far Trader Economics 

> 	I don't know a rules system that the Beowulf _wasn't_ broken for.  I
> can remember having had this conversation about how it was impossible to
> make money in a Beowulf for both CT & TNE.  I missed the MT-era but I
> wouldn't be surprised if it was true for that rules set as well.  The

Or that it's the economics system that's broken.  The good thing bout it was 
that it was easy and fun to do on the fly, being both random and fast.  
They're obviously simplictic, thoug.  How quick was the system before 
Merchant Prince(?)?  How fast and easy is Far Trader to do?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:09 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

<snip>

> I prefer the old interpretation of how jumps work, but I do think the model
> above will solve the problems you raise.

Me 2, though this does raise interesting questions.  Does anything canonical 
void the jump masking? My initial impression on it isn't good, but I'm not 
sure that it violates any previously published materials (though a whole lot 
of assumptions and musings on jump drives and J-space, etc).  It would be 
mostly ignored except when desired for a plot device, wouldn't it?  

Plus, the T5 Jump rules that Marc has posted mention an effective velocity 
for each jump drive, don't they?  This solves the "empty hex" debate from 
awhile back, too,  meaning any deep station could simply be a rogue asteroid 
or comet or something.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 00:11:33 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

At 01:57 PM 06/04/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>> Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking
>> 
>> At 08:39 PM 4/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> >It doesn't make any difference where obstacles might be.  When you jump,
>> >you're not travelling in a straight line through normal space.  If
>[my own comments deleted]
>> 
>> Actually, both Far Trader and the Marc Miller commentary seem to indicate
>> that you _do_ travel in a straight line, and object B, if greater than your
>> ship, will drop you out of jumpspace at it's 100D limit.
>
>I haven't seen T5, nor Far Trader, but this appears to be a change in
>canon, and it will make jump travel more difficult to implement.  I
>don't think I'll follow it in my Traveller universe.
>
>--Glenn
>

        The first thought I had was it makes jumping "past" a system
impossible.  If your destination is a Jp2 away, and there is a star a Jp1
away in between, you are going to wind up visiting that system even if you
are a Jp2 starship...

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:13:03 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: S-3 (was: Re: AHL?)

In a message dated 4/6/99 5:28:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< I gather that they are not new to GT, however.  Anyone know where they do
 come from?
  >>

probably from the chart in the LBB Book 6 Scouts. I don't have my copy in 
front of me...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:11:28 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

Can I submit my HG designs? I am NOT going to do deckplans for a 1 MT 
battlerider tender though...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:24:33 -0400 
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

I'd give a shot at doing the floorplans if you can do the exterior.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Sethkimmel@aol.com [mailto:Sethkimmel@aol.com]
		Sent:	Tuesday, April 06, 1999 11:11 PM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

		Can I submit my HG designs? I am NOT going to do deckplans
for a 1 MT 
		battlerider tender though...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:26:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Why You Can't use the Jump Drive as a Honking Great Accumulator Bank

In a message dated 4/6/99 6:43:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

<<  Hi, Robert!
         As a point, in Supp7, the X-Boat design therein specifically has
 *no* powerplant...  *every* joule of energy required for jumping comes from
 the J-drives.  Further, apparently the computer and life-support do not
 require power-plant support somehow...
  >>

Isn't this a "special" case ala' Gazelle and her tanks? My take is that if 
you delete the power plant you get 10 days endurance (1 jump week, and the 3 
days mentioned in supp7). If you install a power plant, endurance is at LEAST 
4 weeks (and more if you add larger manuever drive fuel tanks) ala HG...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 23:27:40 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

>        The first thought I had was it makes jumping "past" a system
>impossible.  If your destination is a Jp2 away, and there is a star a Jp1
>away in between, you are going to wind up visiting that system even if you
>are a Jp2 starship...

A hex is a parsec across.  A parsec is approximately 207000 AU.  Sol's
solar system is 150AU across.  On that scale, the chances of the system
being in the line of travel are very small.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 00:01:26 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

> Jump limit based on gravity is not a new idea. It may even classify as a
> Done To Death item, since Peter (below) says it was first posted to the
> list in Jan 1995. As you can see, the last time it was posted was October
> last year. I dug it out of my files for Dom's sake, and he suggested that I
> forward it to the TML as well.

No kidding! As much as I love the work the original author did, 
it's a shame to see it posted for the third (or more) time when
it should be... in a FAQ! FAQ this baby!
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 23:02:43 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

On 04/07/99 at 12:11 AM,  Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:

>        The first thought I had was it makes jumping "past" a system
>impossible.  If your destination is a Jp2 away, and there is a star a
>Jp1 away in between, you are going to wind up visiting that system
>even if you are a Jp2 starship...

A hex is a parsec wide!  ;-> 

As long as the route doesn't take the jumping ship through a 201
diameter (100 dia on each side plus the object's actual diameter)
dot in that hex you won't be trapped by the nearer star.  And if I'm
not mistaken in my math that's approx 1 chance in 70,000,000.
Masking can take place with double stars or gas giants within
systems, but if it happens with stars in neighboring hexes then it's
got to be by GM decision...IMO.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:06:00 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

And therein lies the adventure >:D
Jesse


>Strictly IMTU, of course, but I'd be surprised to find 150 S-3 scouts in a
>single sector.  If there are more than a couple of teams in a subsector,
>something very odd is going on.
>
>Tom Schoene
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 23:08:22 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

On 04/06/99 at 11:02 PM,  "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> said:
>A hex is a parsec wide!  ;-> 

>As long as the route doesn't take the jumping ship through a 201
>diameter (100 dia on each side plus the object's actual diameter) dot
>in that hex you won't be trapped by the nearer star.  And if I'm not
>mistaken in my math that's approx 1 chance in 70,000,000.

Oops! That's 1 in 70,000, but those are still very good odds. ;->

>Masking can take place with double stars or gas giants within
>systems, but if it happens with stars in neighboring hexes then
>it's got to be by GM decision...IMO.

And that's *still* MO. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #410
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 7 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 411



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: AHL?
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: AHL?
Re: The Matrix
Armor update (was AHL?)
Re : Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)
Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?
Re: Chicken or the egg?
Re: Jump Limits
re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)
Re:AHL
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: AHL?
re: T5 Jump Masking (and G:T)
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
re: T5 Jump Masking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:09:28 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

Every rules set is encouraged

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <Sethkimmel@aol.com>

: Can I submit my HG designs? I am NOT going to do deckplans for a 1 MT
: battlerider tender though...:-)


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:24:48 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: AHL?

Though I absolutely have no idea if the AHL will be in one of the G:T supps,
I do have plans of eventually making the ship.  The biggest problem is free
time :)  When I'm not busting my ass on SJG stuff or meddling with my "real"
site ideas, I'm usually totally computer burned out, vegging in front of the
tv, preferably with a San Jose Sharks game on the tube (like right now as I
write this - we're up 1 - 0 vs. Phoenix!).  The burn out has gotten to a
point where I haven't really sat down and played a computer game in over two
months (so you can secure that shit Todd!!   :)

My eventual and grandiose plan is to do at least one version of every ship
that's ever appeared in an OTU illustration, and probably some that haven't
(excluding my own designs such as the Acipiter family of ships).

I'd really like to get the Fiery, TI / TJ, and Dragon SDB's done, along with
the Type T Patrol Cruiser, the Broadsword, and the new "Dropships" :) from
"StarMercs" just for fun.

Very Best,
Jesse



>So, when do we see your 3D version? The Navy supplement for GURPS?
>
>;-)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
>of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
>position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:27:46 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

Awww, how come ;)
Jesse




>Can I submit my HG designs? I am NOT going to do deckplans for a 1 MT 
>battlerider tender though...:-)
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:27:17 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: AHL?

Again with the vacuform armor.  You've been talking/promising that for two 
years now oh published one.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:20:02 -0700
From: "Greg Waters" <unclmddy@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix

>Did anyone see this movie?  I thought it was pretty good.  And a scary look
>at what could be happening on some world behind the Black Curtain (maybe
the
>entire area of Lucan's "Safe," which is a very scary thought) or another
>Virus controlled world out in the Wilds somewhere.
>
>Can someone give me some FF&S #s on how much power a human could provide at
Some scientist just recently figured out that human DNA can conduct
electricity as good as silicon. The only problem being the tiny on / off
switch you would need.

Kooch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:23:57 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Armor update (was AHL?)

Ahhh, bite me (FYI for others, I can say this 'cause Todd's my best friend
:).  If it wasn't for all the SJG work I've done of late, you, Tim, Tony,
John, and a couple of people from work would be doing fittings right now to
custom fit a couple of suits each of combat armor for use at BayCon in May.
As it is, there's a slim outside chance, but I ain't holding my breath for
this year.  And more's the pity as I was pretty much ready to boogie and
only a day or two away from buying initial supplies when I had to get going
on one of the SJG deadlines.

Oh well, as you've heard before, there's always next year.  The good news is
that I've heard back from Marc Miller regarding licensing for producing
Official Traveller props, and they're completely acceptable and doable.
This means when I have time, I start producing Officially Licensed Traveller
Props for sale to the TML and general public.  Should make conventions more
interesting >:D

Jesse


>Again with the vacuform armor.  You've been talking/promising that for two
>years now oh published one.
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:56:39 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> BTW, does the Imperium have "veridicators"? If so, at what TL? And what
> are the limits on their use?
> 

Using James Halperin's "The Truth Machine" as a source :-
The device appears to combine functional imaging [high res CT or PET], a
polygraph and a sophisticated expert system to determine veracity based
on the 'sensor data'.

Such devices have never been part of canon AFAIK. The Tech Level
requirement wouldn't be terribly steep, given the components described
above.

The closest analogues I can find, rummaging through my Traveller
collection, are :-
TL 14 : destructive memory reading via computer-brain interfaces, plus a
variant from an old 'White Dwarf' article : ReMemBrE - the Recent Memory
[Brain] Extractor.
This device behaves roughly like a telepathic probe.
TL 16 : crude memory transfer
TL 17 : selective erasure
Tl 18 : partial memory transfer

The primary problem I can see with this sort of gadget is that it
represents a 'psionic-like' technology which would in all probability be
suppressed in the Imperium, at least outside of top secret research
facilities.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:57:08 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

Firstly, many thanks to Mark Cook for posting the USN hospital ship
data. A mobile 1000 bed hospital? Very impressive. 

Mark, do you know many are ICU level beds? With 12 theatres, the overall
bed numbers given, the likely caseload of the hospital, and North
American medical culture, I would suspect at least 5, possibly ten
percent of the total....

Some more RW data :-
ICU level care requires 150-250 square feet (13.9-23.2 m2) per bed area.
Allocate 2.5 to 3X this floorspace for support staff, and 100 square
feet per bed for equipment storage.

Ob Trav :-
Assuming overall heights of FF&S 'sickbay' modules are 3m (overall
volume 112m3), a sickbay module can contain an operating theatre, three
regular ward beds, or two ICU beds.

Additional volume should be allocated for staff areas and equipment
storage. 

Juliean Galak wrote :-
(regarding the 'Sector General' series :-)
> It's probably a bit overkill for Traveller, but some of the books
> might have good plot ideas, especially if you have players that are
> interested in medicine.  An ambulance ship might be a possibility...

In my experience, there are only a few basic 'medical plots'.
i. Disaster scenes (individual or mass casualties, be they from
accident, violence or disease).
Variants include primary presentation (being a rescuer on the scene),
retrieval team, and hospital reception (spending 16 hours working on a
multi-trauma in theatre....) ;

2. Mystery plots (Why did the patient present like that? Are there
suspicious circumstances?) ; and

3. Romance (often highly inappropriate, and in most hospital settings,
not forgotten until long after the relationship [or at best that phase
of it] is well and truly over).

Robert O'Connor
(jaded) Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:21:48 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

>BTW, if you're looking over the ABC story on flat-panel
>speakers, also select the last story in the Technology
>section entitled "Fuel Cells Break Through".
>
>It posts details and diagrams of a British Columbia's
>firm's development of the first commercially viable fuel
>cell car engine. Nissan and Honda have already ordered
>some. It uses natural air and methanol to produce
>electrical power with the only byproduct being pure,
>drinkable water. BC's transit minister drank some of the
>engine exhaust.
>
>Geez! The things that happen when I take a day off of
>work...

And carbon dioxide surely. The shuttles fuel cells uses hydrogen so it only
produces water but a methanol driven one has to get rid of the carbon
somewhere.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:20:08 +0100
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?

[NOTE: this is meant as a 'funny', and is NOT intended to offend anyone.
Too much.]

Cos it looks like one?  Nah, cos it is 'Ard Vark flying the thing.

<<SNIP>>
>
>The F111 is a high survivabilty aircraft and I'll agree with you there.
>
>Charles L.
<<UNSNIP>>

LOL.  Having seen a "Brick" struggle to get off the ground at an
International Air Tatoo (Brit airshow, for those who didn't know), wallowing
like a pregnant swan as it lifted with all the grace of the aardvark that it
so closely resembles, then watching an Avro Vulcan (probably about 7-8 times
the size, IIRC) do a take-off run then go VERTICAL as it left the runway, I
know which I would prefer!  I know that may not seem important, but when a
missile is about to goose you, it matters...

Mind you, the Brick does have that rather nifty crew escape module thingy
("Hey look, Ivan, those nice Yankees have given us *another* target!  Two
for the price of one!";})

Onthe other hand, which got scrapped first?  Hmm.

ObTrav:  If "Jet Noise - The Sound Of Freedom" for TL7(ish) Earth, does that
mean that the 3I would have something like "(Contra-grav) Whine - The Sound
of The Imperium"??  "JN-TSOF" is a bumper sticker I have seen several times
in various places.

Jeff R.

"You came here in that thing?  You're braver than I thought!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:25:43 +0100
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Chicken or the egg?

Forgive me if duplicating someone else, but what about Star Wars?  Eps 4, 5
and 6, then 1, 2 and 3,then 7, 8 and 9 may not even get made!
AARRRGGHH!!!!

But you still cannot beat Douglas Adams and the Hitchhikers Guide to the
Galaxy - a trilogy in five parts!
- -----Original Message-----
From: cjbrain <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 05 April 1999 01:40 AM
Subject: Chicken or the egg?


>Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 16:49:38 -0800
>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Chaos...
>
>Traveller-digest wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:07:43 -0700
>> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> Subject: Re: To Dream of Chaos
>>
>> Joseph Kimball wrote:
>> >
>> > I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
>> > it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
>> > and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...
>>
>> Don't get your hopes up...only the second one was ever published, IIRC.
>
>Nope.  Both the first and second one's were published.
>
>Not wanting to start a war here but think carefully about what you said
>there.  Did
>Tolkien publish The Two Towers first?  Did Empire Strikes Back come out
>first?  No,
>no one publishes the second book of a trilogy first...  Doesn't make sence.
>
>How about Raiders of the Lost Ark? It is the second movie in the Indiana
>Jones Trilogy, but it was made first.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:37:56 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

>No kidding! As much as I love the work the original author did,
>it's a shame to see it posted for the third (or more) time when
>it should be... in a FAQ! FAQ this baby!
>--
>Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
>Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

My post was not based on the original authors work (in fact I hadn't seen
it when I posted) but the most important thing is that my system is NOT
BASED ON GRAVITY and that my system falls back to the original 100d rules
whenever the planet has a density of 1.0.

The original post on GRAVITY based jumplimits

<snip>
>Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 19:00:21 +0100
>From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Jumping from zero planetary diameters (long)
>
>Going through some old disks I found a draft  document  that  was
>posted to the TML back in January 1995.  Anyway, I finally got it
>finished it and thought it might be of interest.
<snip>

Was only close to the 100d canon rule when planets where close to one earth
mass and got progressively worse when deviating from that (note that most
Trav planets are less than Size 8). It also got extremely "un-canon"
results for Sol:

<snip>
>Note that Sol's MSD of 482.6 is equavalent to 4.49 AU (almost
>as far as Jupiter's orbit)!
<snip>

The next time you complain about someones post being done to death at least
READ IT before complaining. Your complaint was also using up bandwidth.

I'm not trying to start another flamewar or something and I apologize for
sounding a bit harsh but if someone complains about wasting bandwidth
unmerited it's similar to the typical quarrel remark: "STOP YELLING!"
Anybody that wants to argue with me over this should e-mail me in private
at the address below.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 01:35:27 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

Michel neatly put his thumb on the problem with the new rule:

> >        The first thought I had was it makes jumping "past" a system
> >impossible.  If your destination is a Jp2 away, and there is a star a Jp1
> >away in between, you are going to wind up visiting that system even if you
> >are a Jp2 starship...

Juliean responded:
 
> A hex is a parsec across.  A parsec is approximately 207000 AU.  Sol's
> solar system is 150AU across.  On that scale, the chances of the system
> being in the line of travel are very small.

and Eris responded:

> A hex is a parsec wide!  ;-> 
> 
> As long as the route doesn't take the jumping ship through a 201
> diameter (100 dia on each side plus the object's actual diameter)
> dot in that hex you won't be trapped by the nearer star.  And if I'm
> not mistaken in my math that's approx 1 chance in 70,000,000.
> Masking can take place with double stars or gas giants within
> systems, but if it happens with stars in neighboring hexes then it's
> got to be by GM decision...IMO.

So let's look at some worst-case odds.  If Sol's system is 150AU, then
it blocks an area of:  150AU x 201 = 30,150AU
That is about 15% of the hex:  30,150AU/207,000AU = 0.1456

So the worst case is that 15% of jump-2s across an occupied hex get
blocked.  

We make that case better by noting that the solar system is not as
massive as my caluclation assumes.  To figure out exactly how much of
the hex is blocked, we have to know the solar diameter and the locations
and diameters of the planets located more than 100 solar diameters from
the star.  Then we add (201 x solar diameter) + (201 x diameter of other
planets not in front of or behind 201 x solar diameter) or something
like that.

Well, I'm too tired to make any sense here; I hope this is helpful in
furthering this discussion.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 03:44:01 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)

> Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> > BTW, does the Imperium have "veridicators"? If so, at what TL? And what
> > are the limits on their use?
> >
>
> Using James Halperin's "The Truth Machine" as a source :-
> The device appears to combine functional imaging [high res CT or PET], a
> polygraph and a sophisticated expert system to determine veracity based
> on the 'sensor data'.
>
> Such devices have never been part of canon AFAIK. The Tech Level
> requirement wouldn't be terribly steep, given the components described
> above.

You're quite correct about the Tech Level.  As a matter of fact, the FBI is
currently testing a device which is similiar to what you describe.  The
information I have on how it works is sketchy, as I just saw part of the
story on TLC (...or was it Discovery?).

Investigators use the machine to determine if an individual
recognizes/remembers words, phrases, or images.  They have determined that
the brain produces specific patterns when previously viewed/experienced data
is presented to it.  The machine reads brain patterns (exactly which process
they use I'm not sure) and simply indicates whether the person recognizes
the object/word.  In this sense, the test is much like a polygraph in that
the test must be well controlled, and the results are subject to
interpretation.  However, in tests, the investigators were able to determine
which individuals in a group were FBI agents, and which were not.  (Without
error)

Given this information, I think it will be likely that the Imperium would
have some type of device which would be helpful to
interrogators/investigators...and this device would also be subject to error
and abuse.

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:13:18 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re:AHL

True, 150 S-3 is a largish number of them; however, don't forget that the 
IISS only received (IIRC) 4 AHL's from the navy. It's a special ship for
very special situations...  i.e. whatever evil the GM can come up with...

<VBWEG>


>Strictly IMTU, of course, but I'd be surprised to find 150 S-3 scouts in a
>single sector.  If there are more than a couple of teams in a subsector,
>something very odd is going on.
>
>Tom Schoene
>

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:59:09 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

> >electrical power with the only byproduct being pure,
> >drinkable water. BC's transit minister drank some of the
> >engine exhaust.
> >
> >Geez! The things that happen when I take a day off of
> >work...
>
> And carbon dioxide surely. The shuttles fuel cells uses hydrogen so it
only
> produces water but a methanol driven one has to get rid of the carbon
> somewhere.

Sparky, carbonated water then...

Seriously, I thought Honda already had an engine (standard internal
combustion) that was 'zero emission', in fact, in the tests it spat out less
noxious fumes than it sucked in!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but take a hydrocarbon, add an O2 (ignore the N)
and you get CO2 and H2O.  Incomplete combustion yields CO's, NO's and in
really bad cases straight C's.  With methanol (CH3OH), add some O2 (as
above), you get H2O, CO2, and some NO's when you're hammering the pedal.
With straight H2, you still get your H2O, and some NO's, but no CO2 - but I
dunno if I want to have a rotary tugging my car around... :)

I guess an upside to methanol would be being able to run your car on
windscreen washer fluid.

OTOH, what about a water cycle engine?  We've all seen the blurbs, waited
patiently for the product, and given up in favour of fuel cells, I guess.

Hurry up with them fusion engines!  where can I order a 150kw fusion plant
for my telstar???

M.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 06:28:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > But how many of them are likely to be serving as enlisted men or customs
> > inspectors?
> 
> LOL.  It doesn't sound like there would be many.  I've always had the
> impression that the Imperial nobility didn't behave like medieval nobility.
> There isn't a "born to rule" philosophy so much, rather than the Imperial
> nobility were well raised and trained well to do their jobs, by the
> priveledge of their upbringing.  But nothing that implies that simply because
> someone is even a Duke's child, that he is automatically put in charge of
> armies or fleets, etc.  I can see an automatic commission or something,
> though.  Maybe the enlisted nobles are bastard children or something?
> Embarrassing to have at home, but legally (or culturally) entitled to certain
> rights.  That sort of thing.
> 
For another view, read Kipling's "Gentleman Rankers", which you can find
at:

http://www.rit.edu/%7eexb1874/mine/kipling/kipling_ind.html

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:47:52 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)

> Such devices have never been part of canon AFAIK. The Tech Level
> requirement wouldn't be terribly steep, given the components described
> above.

These machines work on the premise that all or at least most humans show
the same physiological traits when lying, something that is fairly hard to
believe.

Ob Trav: There is (if memory serves me right) sort of a canon truth-machine
that showed up in GDWs Murder at Arcturus Station. I don't remember the TL
of the machine but it couldn't be all that high as truth drugs (canon for
shure) effectively eliminate that need for truth-machines.

BTW How does other refs play the use of truth drugs? I give my players 5
minutes of questioning in real time with me as the NPC. I try to be as
forthcoming as possible but extremely dumb as to where the players
questions lead. I also stipulate that you fall unconscious after a truth
drug use, that it is dangerous to take another within 24 hours and that the
questioned will have NO memory of the questioning nor the answers he/she
gave.
In my justice system most courts allow a defendant/witness to voluntarily
take truth drug which tend to increase the wight of your testimonial but
that you're never required to do so. The Naval intelligence community has a
special virus which they give their agents that will kill them whenever
they are subjected to truth drug.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:08:18 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

Glenn Goffin wrote:
>So let's look at some worst-case odds.  If Sol's system is 150AU, then
>it blocks an area of:  150AU x 201 = 30,150AU
>That is about 15% of the hex:  30,150AU/207,000AU = 0.1456


The ENTIRE solar system is 150AU, therefore it blocks 150 AU,
not 30,150 AU.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 05:08:59 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: AHL?

I haven't got Star Mercs yet...Are the GT stats in there for the AHL? 

Also, I hope First In is as great as Far Trader. That was a very well 
produced book. I can't wait to read the S-3 stuff!

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 07:07:59 -0500
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking (and G:T)

>        The first thought I had was it makes jumping "past" a system
>impossible.  If your destination is a Jp2 away, and there is a star a Jp1
>away in between, you are going to wind up visiting that system even if you
>are a Jp2 starship...

Um, isn't plotting a Jump course around this stuff what a "navigator"
is for? If memory serves, a Jump course is plotted before the jump
and cannot be changed once Jumpspace is entered. I don't believe
there's ever been anything published which discusses exactly *how*
the navigator plots the course or what the course entails.

CT's use of jump tapes wouldn't conflict with this and could
be said to support it, depending on what a GM rules the tape
contains.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:28:31 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

At 11:11 PM 4/6/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Can I submit my HG designs? I am NOT going to do deckplans for a 1 MT 
>battlerider tender though...:-)
>

        All systems, all milieu are welcome...  just make a note of the when
and wherefores...  for example, I will be posting a design that is native to
my TNEC game... the 3i would never build it.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:33:17 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

At 11:27 PM 4/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>        The first thought I had was it makes jumping "past" a system
>>impossible.  If your destination is a Jp2 away, and there is a star a Jp1
>>away in between, you are going to wind up visiting that system even if you
>>are a Jp2 starship...
>
>A hex is a parsec across.  A parsec is approximately 207000 AU.  Sol's
>solar system is 150AU across.  On that scale, the chances of the system
>being in the line of travel are very small.
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

        Hi, Juliean!
        In otherwords, Jump Masking is a Non-Issue.  The only time you need
to worry about it is with a Black-hole, neutron star, a nebula or an
annoying GM.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #411
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 7 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 412



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The Death of Wisdom / To Dream of Chaos
Re: max accel
Re: max accel 
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
re: T5 Jump Masking (and G:T)
re: AHL
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: T5 Jump Masking
JG Products Evaluation Request
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Truth Machine
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #411
Re: Drop tanks et al
Re: The Matrix
re: T5 Jump Masking (and G:T)
Re: JG Products Evaluation Request
Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)
T5 Jump Masking
Re: JG Products Evaluation Request
Re : Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)
Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:55:45 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: The Death of Wisdom / To Dream of Chaos

> >> Joseph Kimball wrote:
> >> > I picked up the book To Dream of Chaos at my FLGS yesterday.  I'm into
> >> > it about 55 pages and enjoying it.  It is part 2 of a trilogy though,
> >> > and I'm wishing I could find the other two.  Oh well...

> >> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> >> Don't get your hopes up...only the second one was ever published, IIRC.

>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
> >Nope.  Both the first and second one's were published.

The first part is called "The Death of Wisdom." That is, if we are 
talking about Paul Brunette's novels with Coeur d'Esprit/"Red Sun" as 
protagonist.
<My LGS had two copies of The Death of Wisdom. One is still there for 
the taking (I bought the first). I would be willing to buy and send 
it to anybody willing to send me the second, "To Dream of Chaos.">
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:58:32 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 11:28 AM 4/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak writes:
>> Under GT, in an equal GTL fighter vs Grav tank duel, using existing designs
>> (Rampart vs Intrepid at GTL12, or Irmada vs. Instellarms Heavy), the
>> fighter can _never_ penetrate the Tank's armor with it's lasers.  OTOH, the
>> fighter can always stay totally out of range of the tank's fusion guns.
>> Thus, the only weapons that can still do anything are missiles (A SIM-12
>> can get through the Intrepid's side armor almost always), and both craft
>> have point defense...  This is all without dodging, which means that kills
>> are even less likely.  Therefore, the two really can't fight each other in
>> a meaningful way.
>
>Note that range for the grav tanks is given for fire in atmosphere; multiply by
>50 out of atmosphere (which still gives a max range of only around 2,000
>miles).  The major effect of all this is that using a starship for recon over a
>battlefield is a _bad_ idea, as a grav tank can punch holes in the armor of a
>heavy cruiser.
>

HE!  HE!

Can you see the anguished face of an invading captain after diving into the
atmosphere to escape the unexpected unveiling of a planetiod monitor,

"Damn that was close, but we'll be safe in the planets shadow untill the
heavies can deal with that monitor.  Launch the fighters and let's do some
damage while we are here!"

Ship shakes, lights dim, and alarms go off all over the place.

"What the hell was that!?, That thing couldn't follow us this deep into the
atmosphere?!?!", the captain screams.

"Sir, sensors show a batalion sized formation of grav tank 10 miles ahead on
our current heading!  That impact was the main gun of the closest tank!
Sir, What do we do!", screamed the paniced sensor operater.

"What do we do...we die", said the captain in fatalistic calm.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:58:43 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel 

>Sure I have, but you don't have the gaming group that could do it (u only 
>need one person.  One (you) to play the aircraft, one to play the space 
>fighter.  TCS? Trillion Credit Squadron?  That's far different than the role 
>playing scale rules, and is more statistically based rather than skill based. 

True, but I ment to use the match up system only.

> The exact details, I'm not sure.  A skirmish or raid type scenario, I'm 
>thinking, not anything on a planetary invasion scale.  Space fighter(s) comes 
>to give air support or something (and for some reason can't do it from orbit 
>or beyond) and air fighter(s) move to intercept.  U want them at the same TL, 
>fine.  Money?  To have an effective space fighter, it'll cost alot more than 
>a comparable grav vehicle (which by TTL15/GTL12 canon says is pretty much the 
>same thing).  Maybe 2 space fighters vs their equivalent value in atmosphere 
>craft.
>

Sounds good.  As for why they have to be in the atmosophere that's easy.

  Reason 1: recon.  Sensor regarless of TL see better when you are closer to
what you are looking at.

  Reason 2: Fire suport:  Infantry support in montainious terain.

  Reason 3: Combat air patrol: over a grounded ship or instalation.

  Reason 4: Attacking a harded site with space capablie weapons.  (Meason
base)  Fly high and die!  Fly low and the big gun can track fast enough.

  Reasom 5: The two space fighter are all that you have. (PC reason).  Your
merc can ouly carry two fighters.  They are all you have available for the
mission as you G carriers and air raft are not available (for what ever reason).



>> By the way I conceed that a 100mcr space fighter is likely to beat a 20mcr
>> air plane but what about a 100mcr one or 5 20 mcr air planes?
>
>Ah. I must've missed it.  That's what the whole debate was about.  I would 
>think the space fighter would at least have a wingman or battle buddy or 
>something...  Guessing on prices will only work after the designs are 
>possessed...
>

Sorry, I have said this before in different ways and in different posts.  I
thought it might be the 'bone of contention' so I restated it to be sure.
It was my contention that dollar for dollar the air fighters would win.
Curtainly not ship for ship.  The space fighters would win there unless the
'air fighters' were super tanks of equal value when thing get wierd.  The
tanks armor and defenses can be all but impregnable and it's gun will be a
one shot one kill on a fighter but it can not 'catch' the fighter unless the
figther come to it.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:02:59 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

>Hurry up with them fusion engines!  where can I order a 150kw fusion plant
>for my telstar???

Check with the "infinite energy" people (aka the Cold Fusion crowd).
Apparently they have all the energy we need, now, ready to go, and its just
the "Hot Fusion" scientific establishement conspiring to prevent them from
getting the funding they need to develop the stuff (no, really!).

For hot fusion, you don't wanna wait that long.  Its probably still 20-40
years from being workable in the big form, never mind something that fits
under the hood.

"Fusion, the power supply of the future (and always will be)."

Ooooh, Cynicism is reall setting in here.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:08:41 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking (and G:T)

>Um, isn't plotting a Jump course around this stuff what a "navigator"
>is for? If memory serves, a Jump course is plotted before the jump
>and cannot be changed once Jumpspace is entered. I don't believe
>there's ever been anything published which discusses exactly *how*
>the navigator plots the course or what the course entails.
>
>CT's use of jump tapes wouldn't conflict with this and could
>be said to support it, depending on what a GM rules the tape
>contains.

If the Navigator/Astrogator do the poltting before jumping; why keep him
aboard? You could order jumpplots from starports and jump based on those
without the expense of having an extra crewmember (I know the crew would
get a tad irritated at its cheapscate owner the first time they misjumped
into a system with E-port but...).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:01:33 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: AHL

William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
True, 150 S-3 is a largish number of them; however, don't forget that the 
IISS only received (IIRC) 4 AHL's from the navy. It's a special ship for
very special situations...  i.e. whatever evil the GM can come up with...

<VBWEG>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I believe two of them were given to the same IISS department that runs
X-Boats. They do a priority (and PR) cargo loop between Capitol and
Earth. Thus there would be only two doing interesting stuff like going
where no PC has gone before, and the presence of lots of crack
operatives makes sense.

An AHL carries four 400tn fuel shuttles, but usually uses one or two
as cargo/liaison craft. It should be able to replace one with a small
jump-capable ship or two. The IISS field ops AHL's can act as full
fledged mobile scout bases, though ones that carry a spinal mount.
(According the the _Lightning Class Cruisers_ supplement, they
kept the spinal mount.) A spinal mount, a couple hundred crack
commandoes - what is the IISS up to?  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 23:57:57 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks [long]
>
>Bottom line up front: under GT/FT/VE2 rules, drop tank equipped freighters
>can realize significant (~25%) cost savings over conventional designs, but
>not enough to automatically compensate for the additional complexity and
>restrictions imposed. As always, GM's will have to determine for themselves
>whether they are worth the effort.

*grin* why do I feel like we're back in the G:T Trade and Commerce (oops,
Far Trader) email discussions :)

OK. A 25% cost savings will cause drop tank-equipped ships to rapidly
dominate trade, basically as fast as the infrastructure can be constructed.

Once the infrastructure is being constructed, banks will realise that
whilst an internal-tankage ship is viable now, it will not be viable in
10-20 years time when the drop tank infrastructure is complete.

Their horizon for getting their money back will thus shrink, and therefore
they will need to demand a higher rate of interest on long-term starship
mortgages.

<good stuff and ship, tanks and lighter designs snipped>

Note that the lighters are spaceships and can thus be maintained at
Starport C (class III in G:T terms) starports. They are also (relativly)
low technology, and can easily be carried as cargo to worlds incapable of
constructing them.

Thus, it should be a simple commercial enterprise to build them in mass and
ship them to suitable worlds.  I believe you should be able to find many
high WTN worlds 7-8 parsecs apart with a type C starport in the middle -
for example, you could use either Binges or Mille Falcs to run jump-4 drop
tank equipped ships between Collace and Glisten.

As for limitations, non-express cargo ships would be able to 'book in'
lighter slots days in advance, trading off convenience in scheduling for
the cost of outbidding the other people interested in booking the lighter
on the same day.

The other issue to consider is that one fuel lighter can support a number
of jump ships - rather than 500 dtons of fuel tankage being idle on a ship
in jump space for a week, it could have gone back and forth three times to
the fuel point (probably the mainworld) and thus refuelled three ships.
Given the cost of fuel tankage in G:T, this is clearly a signifigant saving
on top of the opportunity cost of the cargo space forgone by internally
fuelled ships.

If I had a copy of Far Trader, I'd crunch the numbers on the
Glisten-Collace run above with internally-fuelled and jump ships. I believe
that jump-4 aided by drop tanks would be more efficent than either jump-4
with internal fuel or a Collace-Mercator- Egypt-Glisten run with a jump-3
ship. I can probably do it anyway, if someone can tell me the average price
of express freight between Collace and Glisten (assume relevant mercantile
skills at 15).

Finally, two dead horses. The red herring about the Spinward Marches being
a backwater has again resurfaced on the list. Guys, the sector has a number
of Hi-pop, Industrial TL15 worlds - Trin, Glisten and Mora to name three.

Secondly, the P-debate. Please dont go there, but remember that if ships
jumping in appear in predictable places, then thats where you put the SDBs
(ships going out go in convoy).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:20:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Paul Schirf wrote:

>Glenn Goffin wrote:
>>So let's look at some worst-case odds.  If Sol's system is 150AU, then
>>it blocks an area of:  150AU x 201 = 30,150AU
>>That is about 15% of the hex:  30,150AU/207,000AU = 0.1456
>
>
>The ENTIRE solar system is 150AU, therefore it blocks 150 AU,
>not 30,150 AU.

Well not if you consider the 100 dimater rule. Since the diameter of the solar
system in this example was given as 150AU the jump masking to both sides would
be 2*100*150 = 30.000AU.

But if you are going to be scientific about it the solar system actually has a
diameter of over 1000AU, perhaps as large as 1 lightyear. Surrounding the solar
system is the Oort Cloud, millions of objects with diameters from 20km and up to
perhaps 500km. These are also going to pose problems for smaller ships.

Another thought is that you actually could go straight through the solar system
without being inside the 100 diameter of any of the bodies in the system. So
Jump masking vil not work every time.


Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:35:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: JG Products Evaluation Request

My Fellow Travellers,

After perusing the new Judges' Guild site, I have found that they are 
making available the following products:

$8.00 Port O' Call: Tarlkin's Landing 
$9.00 Glimmerdrift Reaches
$6.00 Astrogator's Chartbook 
$10.00 Darkling Ship 

Before investing in any of these supplements, I was wondering if 
anyone had any specific information on these products, and what 
general rating (sunbursts, jump parsecs, what-have-you) one might 
give to each of these products.

My Thanks In Advance,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:45:09 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Ethan Henry wrote:
> No kidding! As much as I love the work the original author did, 
> it's a shame to see it posted for the third (or more) time when
> it should be... in a FAQ! FAQ this baby!

To save bandwidth in the future my Traveller stuff can be found at
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/personal/traveller/index.html



Regards PLST
IMTU Code: tm+(**) 3i+ sw+
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 99 13:52:42 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: Truth Machine

IIRC, The CT adventure "Murder on Arcturus Station" had a high-tech polygraph machine 
described within. And, IIRC, it was fairly acurate but like the US (I belive), 
inadmissible in an Imperial Court (or perhaps the local court...).

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:52:46 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #411

> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:33:17 -0300
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking
> 
>         In otherwords, Jump Masking is a Non-Issue.  The only time you
need
> to worry about it is with a Black-hole, neutron star, a nebula or an
> annoying GM.
> 

Jump masking is an issue, because typically you are trying to hit a very
small target (the mainworld's 100D limit) while avoiding a very large one
(the star's 100D limit) that is very close by.

You are correct, however, that objects in interstellar space are rarely a
problem unless there is a misjump of the misexit variety (or the GM wants
it that way). FWIW, Marc Miller's T5 draft says that nebulae are not dense
enough to cause a misexit.

Jump masking has always been a problem for some systems, even if you only
account for precipitation at the immediate destination. The Sun's 100D
limit is just inside the Earth's orbit, for instance, and for smaller stars
(spectral class G5 and under) the entire life zone is within the 100D
limit. Since the majority of known stars fall into this category, this is a
problem.

What was lacking before was a clear understanding of the *implications* of
the 100D limit, backed up by mathematical analysis.


 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 00:59:22 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks et al

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Drop tanks, Gazelles, stock matkets, & Al Morai
>
>Though the engineering problem is anything but decided (and probably never 
>will be).  Nor the economic facts (though they do seem to be... *against* 
>drop tanks having the effects David claims).

To keep flogging a rapidly dying horse, the number quoted by Christopher
Thrash was a *25 percent* reduction in freight costs by using drop tanks. I
believe I can increase that further, by ruthless optimisation of the cargo
lighters and tugs (note that fuel is not massy, which means you need less
m-drive than for general-purpose freight), and by owing rather than renting
the lighters.

It will take capital, but the Imperium that has a rate of interest of two,
maybe three percent, so even if the actual profits are a third of projected
profits, we still make about triple the ruling rate of interest.

Minimal impact ... I Dont Think So.

Next, running out of cash to buy drop tanks.

At or about 1150 AD, there was an invention called a Bill of Exchange that
let merchants borrow money. So if, for example, you needed 500 crowns in
cash to pay your crew before they mutinied, you wrote a Bill of Exchange to
a local merchant, and he advanced you the cash.

Later, you paid him back. Or he sold the bill to someone else, and you paid
them back.

By a similar mechanism (or perhaps the modern equivalent, the credit card),
a small cash flow problem will not be a problem in the 57th century,
assuming of course you have some sort of equity to back it up (i.e. you are
already bankrupt).

Bluntly, if you can't pony up at least a million in cash at any point, you
shouldnt pretend that you can effectively run a merchant starship.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:05:14 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> Did anyone see this movie?  I thought it was pretty good.  And a scary look
> at what could be happening on some world behind the Black Curtain (maybe the
> entire area of Lucan's "Safe," which is a very scary thought) or another
> Virus controlled world out in the Wilds somewhere.

The movie is quite enjoyable, especially for its production values, special
effects
and action.  But the plot is pure Philip K. Dick.  And not just one work of
Dick's
but an idea you can see in a great deal of his work.  Don't look too close toward

realistic consequences of the dramatic foundations.  Just enjoy the moving
pictures,
IMHO.


> Can someone give me some FF&S #s on how much power a human could provide at
> various stages in its life?  I'm thinking you need at least a low berth's
> worth of equipment w/ a human plugged into that, neural jacks et al...  I
> should've payed more attn to the "manly man" thread...

IIRC, in the film they said the human body generates 120V of electricity.
In the movie, humans are great electrical generators.  Not sure if thats true
or not, and I'm skeptical about the cost benefit analysis of supplying the
necessary nutrients to the bodies.

> Anyone have any thoughts on on operating in a computer environment like that?
>  I'm meaning like "bending teh rules" w/ super jumps etc.  I'd take it the
> "Neo" (aka "The One") has a high level in Computer Empathy...

Well, maybe.  But I think it has more to do with Willpower, at least
generally. I would say that Neo develops Computer Empathy later,
or becomes aware of his ability in it.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 07:17:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking (and G:T)

At 03:08 PM 4/7/99 +0100, you wrote:

>If the Navigator/Astrogator do the poltting before jumping; why keep him
>aboard? You could order jumpplots from starports and jump based on those
>without the expense of having an extra crewmember (I know the crew would
>get a tad irritated at its cheapscate owner the first time they misjumped
>into a system with E-port but...).

I would imagine that many subbies and liners do just that.  Why pay for a
service that you don't need?
>
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:26:57 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: JG Products Evaluation Request

Jason Kemp wrote:

> My Fellow Travellers,
>
> After perusing the new Judges' Guild site, I have found that they are
> making available the following products:
>
> $8.00 Port O' Call: Tarlkin's Landing
> $9.00 Glimmerdrift Reaches

I'm a sucker for anything with a Big Ass Map, and this product has one.
Whole sector on one side, on the reverse, 8 world maps.  5 Pocket
Empires.  Although content wise, it is bare bones, I like it.  However,
the canonicity of JG sectors is suspect, IIRC, because there is different

data for these sectors (Glimmerdrift Reaches, Ley Sector, maybe others).
I say get it though.

> $6.00 Astrogator's Chartbook

A waster of time and money, IMHO.  Go get a regular pad of hex paper,
such as those made by Chessex.  This contains, graph, hex, and world
hexmaps
with horizontal lines on the reverse for text.  47 individual pages
equally divided
between graph, hex, and world.  If you want world maps, the only thing
potentially
useful here, go to
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/
The paper in this product is of _very_ low quality.

> $10.00 Darkling Ship

Part of the Border Prowler series taking place in the Ley Sector.
Involves investigation of a generation ship.  Mediocre at best.
Original price $3.95.  Thats about what its worth today, unless
you just want to collect all things traveller.


> Before investing in any of these supplements, I was wondering if
> anyone had any specific information on these products, and what
> general rating (sunbursts, jump parsecs, what-have-you) one might
> give to each of these products.

Glimmerdrift, thumbs up.
Darkling Ship, so so.
Astrographers Chart, thumbs waaay down.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 07:28:44 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)

Does anyone know of any lighters cruisers the ISS uses? I know there 
is the 800 ton ship in M:0...but other than that I'm not sure of any 
other cruisers than the 75K ton AHL used by the Scouts? I'm hoping 
that First In will have something on this...
Mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:45:24 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: T5 Jump Masking

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If the Navigator/Astrogator do the poltting before jumping; why keep him
>aboard? You could order jumpplots from starports and jump based on those
>without the expense of having an extra crewmember (I know the crew would
>get a tad irritated at its cheapscate owner the first time they misjumped
>into a system with E-port but...).

I would imagine that many subbies and liners do just that.  Why pay for a
service that you don't need?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"OK, I see your Starship Pilot's license is in order, and you have a
certified Engineer and Medic...where's your Astrogator? Come now,
you know a class 3 starship can't operate in Imperial space without
a licensed Astrogator aboard. Settle down, I don't make the regulations,
I just impound the starships that aren't in line with them..."
                                     - any Imperial starport or system traffic official.

Interesting. Who would have thought Bribery skill could be used in place
of Navigator skill?  :)

                           

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:00:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Conley <estar@wrench.toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: JG Products Evaluation Request

> $8.00 Port O' Call: Tarlkin's Landing 
> $9.00 Glimmerdrift Reaches
> $6.00 Astrogator's Chartbook 
> $10.00 Darkling Ship 

I recommend the Astrogater's Chartbook. it is a good set of blank sector
and subsector maps, world maps and a few grids thrown in.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:21:01 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re : Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)

At 05:56 PM 4/7/99 +1000, you wrote:
>TL 14 : destructive memory reading via computer-brain interfaces, plus a
>variant from an old 'White Dwarf' article : ReMemBrE - the Recent Memory
>[Brain] Extractor.
>This device behaves roughly like a telepathic probe.
>TL 16 : crude memory transfer
>TL 17 : selective erasure
>Tl 18 : partial memory transfer

Has anyone seen the adventure Memory Alpha?  (the one that comes with the
T4 gamemasters screen)  I thought that had a TL12 or TL15 selective eraser....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:23:26 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

At 05:57 PM 4/7/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak wrote :-
>(regarding the 'Sector General' series :-)
>> It's probably a bit overkill for Traveller, but some of the books
>> might have good plot ideas, especially if you have players that are
>> interested in medicine.  An ambulance ship might be a possibility...
>
>In my experience, there are only a few basic 'medical plots'.
>i. Disaster scenes (individual or mass casualties, be they from
>accident, violence or disease).
>Variants include primary presentation (being a rescuer on the scene),
>retrieval team, and hospital reception (spending 16 hours working on a
>multi-trauma in theatre....) ;
>
>2. Mystery plots (Why did the patient present like that? Are there
>suspicious circumstances?) ; and
>
>3. Romance (often highly inappropriate, and in most hospital settings,
>not forgotten until long after the relationship [or at best that phase
>of it] is well and truly over).

Actually, in one of the recent ones (Galactic Gourmet) The plot centers
around the hospital's Chief Dietitian/Cook establishing peaceful relations
with a newly discovered race....   There really are plenty of plots
possible... :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #412
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 7 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 413



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)
re: T5 Jump Masking
Can we drop the Drop Tanks?
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: Jump Limits
GT Battledress
Re: Chicken or the egg?
Re: AHL [but OT, and mercenary]
Re: JG Products Evaluation Request
Re:Jump Projectors...
Deckplans
Re: GT Battledress
Re:Jump Projectors...
Re: AHL [but OT, and mercenary]
Re: GT Battledress
Re: Deckplans
Re: Deckplans
re: Jump Projectors
re: Jump Projectors
Re: AHL [but OT, and mercenary]
Re: Drop tanks et al
Re: The Matrix
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Timeline Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:36:54 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)

JFZeigler is introducing a 3,000DT ship called the "Pytheas" Class
Exploratory Cruiser that's 2.1G, J4.  Due to the nature of it's missions,
it's also a very stealthy ship >:D

Jesse



>Does anyone know of any lighters cruisers the ISS uses? I know there
>is the 800 ton ship in M:0...but other than that I'm not sure of any
>other cruisers than the 75K ton AHL used by the Scouts? I'm hoping
>that First In will have something on this...
>Mike
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:37:46 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

At 09:33 AM 4/7/99 -0300, you wrote:
>>A hex is a parsec across.  A parsec is approximately 207000 AU.  Sol's
>>solar system is 150AU across.  On that scale, the chances of the system
>>being in the line of travel are very small.
>>
>>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>
>        Hi, Juliean!
>        In otherwords, Jump Masking is a Non-Issue.  The only time you need
>to worry about it is with a Black-hole, neutron star, a nebula or an
>annoying GM.
>
No.   It's a non-issue for crossing a hex with a system, but it _is_ an
issue when you are entering that system.   You are forcefull placing
yourself near the 100D spheres of interference.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:45:18 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

Gentlebeings:

It seems to me that the current raging debate on drop tanks is getting longer 
and longer (as the participants counter each other line by line) while giving 
us less and less useful information.

Would it be possible for you all to:

(1) Trim your responses by limiting the amount that you quote and re-quote 
from the other participants?

(2) Try to keep the personalities out of it (I see a spiraling flame war 
growing)?

or

(3) Take the personalities off-list?

Thanks much!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:54:36 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

At 10:45 AM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>"OK, I see your Starship Pilot's license is in order, and you have a
>certified Engineer and Medic...where's your Astrogator? Come now,
>you know a class 3 starship can't operate in Imperial space without
>a licensed Astrogator aboard. Settle down, I don't make the regulations,
>I just impound the starships that aren't in line with them..."
>                                     - any Imperial starport or system 
>traffic official.

Hmmm...  I just converted one of my players characters from T4 to GT, and
he wanted the limited mate's license from Far Trader.  He had good enough
skills (or defaults) for everything but astrogation...  So I let him dump
some starting funds and use bribery in place of Astrogation on the exam....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:53:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Anders Backman writes:
> 
> My post was not based on the original authors work (in fact I hadn't seen
> it when I posted) but the most important thing is that my system is NOT
> BASED ON GRAVITY and that my system falls back to the original 100d rules
> whenever the planet has a density of 1.0.

Note that 100d limit based on tidal flux has also been done a number of times,
though it may have not been around as long.  However, if you're going to put
something in the FAQ, use tidal flux, not gravity, because at least tidal flux
resembles the existing rules.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:58:40 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: GT Battledress

I've been looking over the battledresses in GT, and found them lacking.
The Improved Battledress-11 in GT is not much better than just good armor,
and the Commando Battledress in Star Mercs is a huge monster that I feel is
inappropriate to Traveller.  Therefore, I wrote up my own, it's available
at the web site below.  Comments and critiques are appreciated.  It was
created with GURPS Mecha. 



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:12:17 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Chicken or the egg?

>>>>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:25:43 +0100
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Chicken or the egg?

Forgive me if duplicating someone else, but what about Star Wars?  Eps
4, 5
and 6, then 1, 2 and 3,then 7, 8 and 9 may not even get made!
AARRRGGHH!!!!

But you still cannot beat Douglas Adams and the Hitchhikers Guide to
the
Galaxy - a trilogy in five parts!
>>>>
Oh yeah?  Try Piers Anthony's Xanth series - a trilogy that runs 20+
books so far!
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:20:57 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: AHL [but OT, and mercenary]

If all of this talk about AHL hasmade anyone wish they had a copy of the
original, I have just posted one on the Subsidized Merchant.  The asking
price is maxed out, but I'm flexible on trades and terms :)

==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

___________hosted_by___________
               www.downport.com
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:31:02 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: JG Products Evaluation Request

Glimmerdrift Reaches is decent, Tarlkin's Landing is not Traveller
(generic sci-fi), but is fun, Darkling Ship is fair and the Chartbook is
a matter of taste (I have it because I'm a completist).  The prices are
on the high side.  There are several JG items on the Subsidized Merchant
http://surf.to/traveller-trader
some of which are in the shrinkwrap or in excellent or better condition.

Colin


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jason Kemp <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
: After perusing the new Judges' Guild site, I have found that they are
: making available the following products:
:
: $8.00 Port O' Call: Tarlkin's Landing
: $9.00 Glimmerdrift Reaches
: $6.00 Astrogator's Chartbook
: $10.00 Darkling Ship
:
: Before investing in any of these supplements, I was wondering if
: anyone had any specific information on these products, and what
: general rating (sunbursts, jump parsecs, what-have-you) one might
: give to each of these products.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:43:45 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re:Jump Projectors...

>For our explanation we will assume the GT explanation is OTU. The spacecraft
>is contained by a bubble of hydrogen to isolate it from Jump Space during
>the jump. (This is where much of the fuel consumed during jump is used. The
>bubble is maintained by adding small amounts of hydrogen during the time in
>Jump Space.) [...]

>For example a Jump projector might project a ship into jump space by opening
>the weave and then create a force field around the ship to isolate it from
>Jump Space as it closes the weave. Obviously meant to be a nonlethal weapon,
>or not a weapon at all.

[...]


OTOH, who says that a target hit by a jump projector has to survive?
Perhaps the jump projector causes a ship to jump *without any protection at
all.* Thus the jump projector *is* a weapon, and possibly one of the most
deadly ones available.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:52:05 -0400 
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: Deckplans

What programs do most people use for doing deckplans?  I have a PC and
trying to figure out the best program for doing this.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:53:51 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

I would if I could find it.  I find no mention of Traveller stuff at the
address you specify in your sig.

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg,
"Star Trek, First Contact"





>I've been looking over the battledresses in GT, and found them lacking.
>The Improved Battledress-11 in GT is not much better than just good armor,
>and the Commando Battledress in Star Mercs is a huge monster that I feel is
>inappropriate to Traveller.  Therefore, I wrote up my own, it's available
>at the web site below.  Comments and critiques are appreciated.  It was
>created with GURPS Mecha.
>
>
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>
>--
>jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
>                         defend to the death your right to say it."
>                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire
>#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
>                              -- Albert Einstein
>for PGP public-key and
>more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
>WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 13:58:27 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re:Jump Projectors...

At 11:43 AM 4/7/99 +0100, you wrote:

>OTOH, who says that a target hit by a jump projector has to survive?
>Perhaps the jump projector causes a ship to jump *without any protection at
>all.* Thus the jump projector *is* a weapon, and possibly one of the most
>deadly ones available.
>

        Hi, Joesph!
        This is how I do it...  1D+11 for a mis-jump roll...  most of the
time, you are just on the other side of the sector...  other times, you are
spread all over the sector.  Once in a rare while (1 on 1D), you are just
micro-jumped,  intact and in place. 
        And yes, these are truely frightening weapons....  Even if the
victim survives the jump intact, there is no guarantee that there is enough
fuel for life support for the week in between....

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:57:51 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: AHL [but OT, and mercenary]

At 12:20 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>If all of this talk about AHL hasmade anyone wish they had a copy of the
>original, I have just posted one on the Subsidized Merchant.  The asking
>price is maxed out, but I'm flexible on trades and terms :)

Can you add that to the order I sent you earlier today?  (I know it's $75,
that's OK....)





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:59:32 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

At 09:53 AM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I would if I could find it.  I find no mention of Traveller stuff at the
>address you specify in your sig.

Oops.  I used the wrong sig... This should have it...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:08:36 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

At 12:52 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>What programs do most people use for doing deckplans?  I have a PC and
>trying to figure out the best program for doing this.
>

        I personally use Campaign Cartographer 2 from Pro-Fantasy
("http://www.profantasy.com") for my stuff..   really nice product.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:09:34 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Well, for my Acipiter family of ships on my site, I actually used Photoshop.
This really is not the best program for doing deckplans.  What you really
want for "professional" level deckplans (i.e. stuff for publication) is a
vector drawing program like Corel Draw or Adobe Illustrator.  I have
Illustrator, but I haven't learned how to use the bloody thing yet :)

Jesse




>What programs do most people use for doing deckplans?  I have a PC and
>trying to figure out the best program for doing this.
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:22:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Jump Projectors

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>For example a Jump projector might project a ship into jump space by opening
>the weave and then create a force field around the ship to isolate it from
>Jump Space as it closes the weave. Obviously meant to be a nonlethal weapon,
>or not a weapon at all.

[...]


OTOH, who says that a target hit by a jump projector has to survive?
Perhaps the jump projector causes a ship to jump *without any protection at
all.* Thus the jump projector *is* a weapon, and possibly one of the most
deadly ones available.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another possibility: the Jump Projectors we're seeing are a poorly
understood copy of Ancient technology. 

Let's say an archaeologist discovers a machine at an Ancients site
that, when lots of power is applied, sends the target of a beam into
a misjump. "Ah hah!" says the Imperial Navy rep at the site, "A Jump
Projector Weapon!".

What he actually has is a partially-functioning Jump Gate, but he lacks
(and doesn't realize he lacks) the PsiTech gear that would allow him to
cause controlled jumps instead of misjumps. Failsafes in the design
that create the protective field are misunderstood as part of the jump
effect generation, and included with the copies of the design. Since
advanced Disintigrators already exist (TL17?), there isn't any impetus
to figure out a way to make the forcefield fail to protect the target from
jumpspace - a culture working with Jump Projectors already knows how
to make things disappear.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:32:08 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Jump Projectors

At 01:22 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Another possibility: the Jump Projectors we're seeing are a poorly
>understood copy of Ancient technology. 
>
>Let's say an archaeologist discovers a machine at an Ancients site
>that, when lots of power is applied, sends the target of a beam into
>a misjump. "Ah hah!" says the Imperial Navy rep at the site, "A Jump
>Projector Weapon!".
>
>What he actually has is a partially-functioning Jump Gate, but he lacks
>(and doesn't realize he lacks) the PsiTech gear that would allow him to
>cause controlled jumps instead of misjumps. Failsafes in the design
>that create the protective field are misunderstood as part of the jump
>effect generation, and included with the copies of the design. Since
>advanced Disintigrators already exist (TL17?), there isn't any impetus
>to figure out a way to make the forcefield fail to protect the target from
>jumpspace - a culture working with Jump Projectors already knows how
>to make things disappear.
>
>Walt Smith
>

        Hi, Walt!
        Another nicely thought-out concept from you.  This is a very clever
possibility....  Well done.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:41:17 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: AHL [but OT, and mercenary]

At 12:57 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:20 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>If all of this talk about AHL hasmade anyone wish they had a copy of the
>>original, I have just posted one on the Subsidized Merchant.  The asking
>>price is maxed out, but I'm flexible on trades and terms :)
>
>Can you add that to the order I sent you earlier today?  (I know it's $75,
>that's OK....)

oops.  My apologies.  Hit the wrong reply button... :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:04:26 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop tanks et al

> Minimal impact ... I Dont Think So.

How bout Not a Catastrophic Impact?  Really, my whole point has been Not a 
Castrophic Impact In the Lifespan of a Campaign.  Especially if there are a 
couple of disasters that should shake confidence in the safety and/or real 
efficiency of them?  

> Bluntly, if you can't pony up at least a million in cash at any point, you
> shouldnt pretend that you can effectively run a merchant starship.

I'll bet that's true for alot of hapless small-fry traders out there (who 
really can't effectively run a merchant starship, but make great adventurers 
and smugglers, etc).  I know my PCs zeroed out the M&R fund more than once 
after expensive repairs, and another disaster (failed or disasterous run, 
more severe damage, etc) in too short a time would've left them screwed and 
desperate (and ripe for another adventure).  Getting a loan or something is 
always a possiblity, but usually from guys who send people to break your 
fingers when you're late, and/or taking out a 2nd or 3rd mortgage on the 
ship.  ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:04:28 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Matrix

> > Can someone give me some FF&S #s on how much power a human could 
> > provide at
> > various stages in its life?  I'm thinking you need at least a low berth's
> > worth of equipment w/ a human plugged into that, neural jacks et al...  I
> > should've payed more attn to the "manly man" thread...
> 
> IIRC, in the film they said the human body generates 120V of electricity.
> In the movie, humans are great electrical generators.  Not sure if thats 
true
> or not, and I'm skeptical about the cost benefit analysis of supplying the
> necessary nutrients to the bodies.

IIRC, it wasn't that people were such great generators by virtue of 
themselves, but that they were an abundant and easily harvestable source.  
Especially once they start creating "crops."  

> > Anyone have any thoughts on on operating in a computer environment like 
that?
> >  I'm meaning like "bending teh rules" w/ super jumps etc.  I'd take it the
> > "Neo" (aka "The One") has a high level in Computer Empathy...
> 
> Well, maybe.  But I think it has more to do with Willpower, at least
> generally. I would say that Neo develops Computer Empathy later,
> or becomes aware of his ability in it.

Yeah.  I'd buy that.  Especially for the "normal" people in the matrix.  
Otherwise, it would be run w/ your normal skills, etc, but the possiblity of 
bending rules.  Noone was capable of breaking the rules except Neo, even the 
Agents only bended rules, but noone besides Neo and the Agents could move 
that fast, etc.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:09:49 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

Tommy Grav wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Paul Schirf wrote:
> 
> >Glenn Goffin wrote:
> >>So let's look at some worst-case odds.  If Sol's system is 150AU, then
> >>it blocks an area of:  150AU x 201 = 30,150AU
> >>That is about 15% of the hex:  30,150AU/207,000AU = 0.1456
> >
> >The ENTIRE solar system is 150AU, therefore it blocks 150 AU,
> >not 30,150 AU.
> 
> Well not if you consider the 100 dimater rule. Since the diameter of the solar
> system in this example was given as 150AU the jump masking to both sides would
> be 2*100*150 = 30.000AU.

Glen, Tommy: The solar system isn't solid and so doesn't have a 
100D limit of its own. As previously noted, we're all well within 
the 100D limit of "the galaxy", therefore no one can jump, ever, 
by your argument.

Regarding the "odds of hitting stuff" question, even that rough 
150AU number is almost entirely empty space even after you take 
in the 100D range around all the planets, asteroids, comets, and 
such.

Also, keep in mind Marc Miller's statement that the hex maps map 
realspace and jumpspace both at a 1:1 correspondence. If this 
implies that jumpspace has a third dimension, it's easier still 
to avoid collisions. 

Anders Backman wrote:
> If the Navigator/Astrogator do the poltting before jumping; why keep him
> aboard? You could order jumpplots from starports and jump based on those
> without the expense of having an extra crewmember (I know the crew would
> get a tad irritated at its cheapscate owner the first time they misjumped
> into a system with E-port but...).

I think ships that expected to jump while pursued or opposed (in 
other words, all PC ships and all military ships) would have a
navigator aboard: what if your jump tape only tells you how to 
get to your destination system starting from a spot on the far 
side of the enemy fleet? An astrogator can improvise; a jump tape 
can't. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:26:05 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Timeline Project

Well, I'm editing the timeline material again, and I do want to thank
those of you who gave me input on the new format for the integrated
timeline.  If you haven't seen the new format, or the timeline at all,
check out http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html.

Anyway, I've found a list of items I need information from, especially
if the item "has no timeline information".  Here's the list:

DGP                     101 Robots
DGP                     MTA V1 - Vilani and Vargr, the Coreward Races
DGP                     MTA V2 - Solomani and Aslan, the Rimward Races
DGP                     Starship Operator's Manual
DGP                     The Flaming Eye
Empire                  MTA 1 - The Zhodani Conspiracy (computer game)
Empire                  MTA 2 - The Quest for the Ancients (computer game)
FASA                    Action Aboard
FASA                    Adventure Class Ships - Volume 2
FASA                    Aslan Mercenary Ships
FASA                    Far Traveller #02
FASA                    High Passage #01
FASA                    High Passage #02
FASA                    High Passage #05
FASA                    ISCV: King Richard
FASA                    ISCV: Leander
FASA                    ISPMV: Fenris
FASA                    ISPMV: Tethys
FASA                    Merchant Class Ships
FASA                    Rescue on Galatea
FASA                    Starport Module 2
FASA                    The FCI Consumer Guide
FASA                    The Harrensa Project/The Stazhlekh Report
FASA                    ZISMV: Vlezhdatl
Gamelords               Pilot's Guide to the Caledon Subsector
Gamelords               Startown Liberty
Gamelords               The Desert Environment
Gamelords               The Mountain Environment
Gamelords               The Undersea Environment
Gamelords               Wanted: Adventurers
Games Workshop          Riftspan Reaches
GDW                     Arrival Vengeance - The Final Odyssey
GDW                     Assignment - Vigilante
GDW                     Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector
GDW                     Challenge #25
GDW                     Challenge #26
GDW                     Challenge #36 - #38
GDW                     Challenge #40 - #43
GDW                     Challenge #45
GDW                     Challenge #47 - #48
GDW                     Challenge #50 - #59
GDW                     Challenge #61 - #67
GDW                     Challenge #69
GDW                     Challenge #72 - #74
GDW                     Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
GDW                     JTAS #01
GDW                     JTAS #02
GDW                     JTAS #04
GDW                     JTAS #07
GDW                     Knightfall - Long Lost Legacy of the Long Night
Group One               Encounters in the Corelian Quadrant
Group One               Encounters in the Phoenix Quadrant
Group One               Encounters in the Ventura Quadrant
Group One               Geptorem
Group One               Hydronant
Group One               Lomodo IV
Group One               Marnagua
Group One               Mission to Zephor
Group One               Nithus
Group One               Nystalux
Group One               Pen-Latol's World
Group One               Port Xanatath
Group One               Sapies
Group One               Theta Borealis Sector
Group One               Wabor-Parn
Judges Guild            Amycus Probe
Judges Guild            Corsairs of the Turku Waste
Judges Guild            Crucis Margin
Judges Guild            Darkling Ship
Judges Guild            Darthanon Queen
Judges Guild            Doom of the Singing Star
Judges Guild            Dra'k'ne Station
Judges Guild            Glimmerdrift Reaches
Judges Guild            Laser Tank
Judges Guild            Ley Sector
Judges Guild            Maranatha-Alkahest Sector
Judges Guild            Marooned on Ghostring
Judges Guild            Rogue Moon of Spinstorme
Judges Guild            Simba Safari
Judges Guild            Starships & Spacecraft
Judges Guild            Tancred
Judges Guild            Waspwinter
Marischal               Trading Team (Seeker, 1987)
Paranoia Press          Aliens & Artifacts
Seeker                  Escape
Seeker                  Gazelle Class Close Escort
Seeker                  Merchant Class Ships, Vol. 1
Seeker                  Module 1 - The Corporation
Seeker                  Module 2 - Research Facility
Seeker                  Module 3 - Merchant Class Ships
Staplehurst & Hulks     Deneb Sector
Star Quest              Down and Out of Luck
Star Quest              Imperial News Service #XXXX
Warfield                The Evening Star

Thanks for any help and assistance.  Additional comments on the timeline
project are ALWAYS welcome.


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #413
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 7 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 414



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?
Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts
The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Calling Canucks
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
re: The Sound of the Imperium
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
True Gearheads...
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re: The Matrix
Re: Vilani language question
Matrix
re: T5 Jump Masking
re: T5 Jump Masking
The Astrogator's Job (was T5 Jump Masking...)
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re: True Gearheads...
Re: Deckplans
Re: Misjumps (Background)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:29:38 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

Almost makes you wish we had Clif back, doesn't it?



AAAACCKKK!!!!!  What the HELL am I saying?!?!?!?  If I do that again,
somebody shoot me!

Jesse
:)




>Gentlebeings:
>
>It seems to me that the current raging debate on drop tanks is getting
longer
>and longer (as the participants counter each other line by line) while
giving
>us less and less useful information.
>
>Would it be possible for you all to:
>
>(1) Trim your responses by limiting the amount that you quote and re-quote
>from the other participants?
>
>(2) Try to keep the personalities out of it (I see a spiraling flame war
>growing)?
>
>or
>
>(3) Take the personalities off-list?
>
>Thanks much!
>
>Fred Kiesche
>(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:03:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

> From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

> In my experience, there are only a few basic 'medical plots'.
> i. Disaster scenes (individual or mass casualties, be they from
> 2. Mystery plots (Why did the patient present like that? Are there
> 3. Romance (often highly inappropriate, and in most hospital settings,

But see We All Died At Breakaway Station (I've forgotten the author's
name), a pulp novel from the 1950s or '60s in which a big hospital ship
pretends to be a battleship, and, with its two small escorts, charges an
incoming enemy battle fleet and stalls their advance on Breakaway
Station long enough for repairs to be made to allow a subspace or
hyperspace or whatever it was transmission of intelligence information
back to earth.

(The escorts were the Iwo Jima and the Pharsalus, as I recall, but I
can't remember the name of the hospital ship.  The captain of the
hospital ship was Absalom Bracer.   He'd been the captain of a cruiser
or something and had lost his legs in a battle, so he'd been stuck into
this tracked vehicle contraption that took care of life support and gave
him mobility -- somewhere between Captain Pike in The Menagerie and the
Lost in Space Robot.  The enemy was the Jillies, an alien race best
remembered for its members' habit of removing their stomachs after
digesting food and throwing them into a communal pile until needed
again.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:21:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

> From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>

> ObTrav:  If "Jet Noise - The Sound Of Freedom" for TL7(ish) Earth, does that
> mean that the 3I would have something like "(Contra-grav) Whine - The Sound
> of The Imperium"??  "JN-TSOF" is a bumper sticker I have seen several times
> in various places.

Jet noise is also the sound of oppression.  At the beginning of the
recent war in Afghanistan, the Soviets used to fly MiGs low over crowds
in order to break up demonstrations (which I admit causes less loss of
life than strafing the crowds would).  
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we have Fleet Week every fall, when
the Navy sends jet fighters low over the city.  In light of the area's
long history of opposition to the military and to other institutions and
cultural norms (this was the site of the largest protests against the
Gulf War; Berkeley was the seat of anti-Vietnam radicalism, etc.), I
can't help but wonder whether the Navy is more interested in
intimidating us than reassuring us.

Ob Traveller:  What sound does contra-grav make, if any?  I've always
assumed that it's more or less silent, but have no basis for that
assumption.  If it is silent, what do military powers do to assert their
presence with civilians without actually shooting?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:32:55 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Calling Canucks

Who here lives in or near Toronto or Montreal? Please contact me off-list.

Best,

Glenn Grant

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in trade paperback from Tor Books
          Watch for _Northern Suns_ in April 1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:05:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

I've gone the other way with the sound that CG and thrusters make, *simply
because it's more dramatic that way*.  You can throw all the real world or
hypothetical physics at me that you want, but I'll simply handwave those
away saying "Not IMTU" :)   It's like the ships in Star Wars.  You
*absolutely know* that if you were behind that Tie Fighter like that, you
wouldn't be able to hear _jack_ except whatever noise your instruments make,
but the sound that that little beast makes as it goes by heightens dramatic
tension.

Flay me if you must, but when I get some Traveller animations posted on my
site, those ships'll be makin' noise baby!!!

Best,
Jesse


>> ObTrav:  If "Jet Noise - The Sound Of Freedom" for TL7(ish) Earth, does
that
>> mean that the 3I would have something like "(Contra-grav) Whine - The
Sound
>> of The Imperium"??  "JN-TSOF" is a bumper sticker I have seen several
times
>> in various places.
>
>Jet noise is also the sound of oppression.  At the beginning of the
>recent war in Afghanistan, the Soviets used to fly MiGs low over crowds
>in order to break up demonstrations (which I admit causes less loss of
>life than strafing the crowds would).
>Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we have Fleet Week every fall, when
>the Navy sends jet fighters low over the city.  In light of the area's
>long history of opposition to the military and to other institutions and
>cultural norms (this was the site of the largest protests against the
>Gulf War; Berkeley was the seat of anti-Vietnam radicalism, etc.), I
>can't help but wonder whether the Navy is more interested in
>intimidating us than reassuring us.
>
>Ob Traveller:  What sound does contra-grav make, if any?  I've always
>assumed that it's more or less silent, but have no basis for that
>assumption.  If it is silent, what do military powers do to assert their
>presence with civilians without actually shooting?
>
>--Glenn
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:18:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: The Sound of the Imperium

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we have Fleet Week every fall, when
the Navy sends jet fighters low over the city.  In light of the area's
long history of opposition to the military and to other institutions and
cultural norms (this was the site of the largest protests against the
Gulf War; Berkeley was the seat of anti-Vietnam radicalism, etc.), I
can't help but wonder whether the Navy is more interested in
intimidating us than reassuring us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The world didn't begin in the 1960's. San Francisco is a major port city with
a long seafaring heritage, the US Navy is part of that. The people who make
fleet visit decisions are thinking as part of a 220 year old service, not
in terms of a 30 year old movement.

ObTrav: you think our militaries have traditions and protocols now. Wait
until the 82nd Airborne has 3000+ years of unit history to live up to.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:28:58 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

At 01:05 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I've gone the other way with the sound that CG and thrusters make, *simply
>because it's more dramatic that way*.  You can throw all the real world or
>hypothetical physics at me that you want, but I'll simply handwave those
>away saying "Not IMTU" :)   It's like the ships in Star Wars.  You
>*absolutely know* that if you were behind that Tie Fighter like that, you
>wouldn't be able to hear _jack_ except whatever noise your instruments make,
>but the sound that that little beast makes as it goes by heightens dramatic
>tension.
>
>Flay me if you must, but when I get some Traveller animations posted on my
>site, those ships'll be makin' noise baby!!!

I think that some noise would be normal, the hatch closing, the main gun
turret moving to draw a bead on the next citi...er, target.  You get the
picture.  But I think that from a psychological POV, having a little switch
labled "Go Quiet and Freak the Civvies" would have some merit.  Kind of the
way Ramius means in Hunt for Red October when he says, "Now they will
tremble to the sound of our silence..."

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:35:33 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
: Ob Traveller:  What sound does contra-grav make, if any?  I've always
: assumed that it's more or less silent, but have no basis for that
: assumption.  If it is silent, what do military powers do to assert
their
: presence with civilians without actually shooting?

I'll admit ignorance here, but does antigrav "nullify" the effect of
gravity or does it apply opposing force?  If it is just a field
generation effect, what would it feel like to stand _under_ a grav
vehicle?  Pressure?  Queasiness?  Hmm.

- -
V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
http://www.downport.com/ct

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:42:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au> writes:

> Firstly, many thanks to Mark Cook for posting the USN hospital ship
> data. A mobile 1000 bed hospital? Very impressive. 
> 
> Mark, do you know many are ICU level beds? With 12 theatres, the overall
> bed numbers given, the likely caseload of the hospital, and North
> American medical culture, I would suspect at least 5, possibly ten
> percent of the total....

Alas, I don't have the answers to any of these questions... yet.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:43:03 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 1:27 PM


>I think that some noise would be normal, the hatch closing, the main gun
>turret moving to draw a bead on the next citi...er, target.  You get the
>picture.  But I think that from a psychological POV, having a little switch
>labled "Go Quiet and Freak the Civvies" would have some merit.  Kind of the
>way Ramius means in Hunt for Red October when he says, "Now they will
>tremble to the sound of our silence..."


    The pilot making the whoosing noises.  IMTC, the pilot likes to make
whoosing noises as he pilots the free trader.

>Kurt Feltenberger


Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist & Old Gaming Fart
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:48:07 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: True Gearheads...

Take a look at the following web site...they must have relation in the TML
Gearhead family.

http://www.phobe.com/furby/

I waiting for the grainy B&W video...

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

Sword Worlder writes:
> I'll admit ignorance here, but does antigrav "nullify" the effect of
> gravity or does it apply opposing force?  If it is just a field
> generation effect, what would it feel like to stand _under_ a grav
> vehicle?  Pressure?  Queasiness?  Hmm.
> 
Canon is that it nullifies, though FF&S had a discussion of the other option.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:47:28 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

Good point.  Hadn't thought of that, but I still kinda' like the screaming
noise, maybe along the lines of the fan noise of the A-10.  Saw that pup at
Fleet Week a couple years ago and it was AWESOME!!  There was a lull after a
prop aerobatic flight, then all of a sudden that big ugly S.O.B. came
skimmin' at near NOE over the city quiet as Death itself until it was nearly
overhead, then WHAM it makes a near 90 degree turn and goes vertical!  The
routine after that was pretty much a blur as I was too busy trying not to
slip in my own saliva (we were on a sailboat out in the Bay).  VERY cool.
<political comment about A10's in genocidal Serbia clipped since I thought
better of it and didn't want to offend anyone of Serbian ancestry>.

Jesse




>I think that some noise would be normal, the hatch closing, the main gun
>turret moving to draw a bead on the next citi...er, target.  You get the
>picture.  But I think that from a psychological POV, having a little switch
>labled "Go Quiet and Freak the Civvies" would have some merit.  Kind of the
>way Ramius means in Hunt for Red October when he says, "Now they will
>tremble to the sound of our silence..."
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>
>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
>   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
>     ~Stephen Decatur
>
>
>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:59:09 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> > > Anyone have any thoughts on on operating in a computer environment like
> that?
> > >  I'm meaning like "bending teh rules" w/ super jumps etc.  I'd take it the
> > > "Neo" (aka "The One") has a high level in Computer Empathy...
> >
> > Well, maybe.  But I think it has more to do with Willpower, at least
> > generally. I would say that Neo develops Computer Empathy later,
> > or becomes aware of his ability in it.
>
> Yeah.  I'd buy that.  Especially for the "normal" people in the matrix.
> Otherwise, it would be run w/ your normal skills, etc, but the possiblity of
> bending rules.  Noone was capable of breaking the rules except Neo, even the
> Agents only bended rules, but noone besides Neo and the Agents could move
> that fast, etc.

They said, and I guess we must accept, that some rules can be bent,
and some can be broken.  (IMHO, if they can be bent, they can all be
broken).  What Morpheus and gang can do is use their Willpower to
enforce their will, i.e., belief or desire, upon the Matrix.  Where Neo
can eventually, make new rules, or totally disregard existing ones, e.g.,
his little feat at the end.  They should have been doing that kind of stuff
from the beginning.  Heck, why don't they just make the people they
take out of the Matrix beleive that they're Superman.  Bullets no problem.
No reason to even go that far.  Just hack a newborn out of the Matrix,
raise it in that construct, give it superpowers, let it loose in the Matrix.
Boom.  Or perhaps easier, use religion to take advantage of the belief
of those in the Matrix, so as to give them power over it.

As I said, look to close and the whole movie falls apart.  Just enjoy the
moving pictures.  If its the plot that grabs you, Philip K. Dick did it first
and he did it better.  If I can find them, I'll mention the short stories and
novels that have this background.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:39:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Vilani language question

On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Hey, a question non-directly related to ship deckplans or pictures!!!!  I'll
> admit that it'll have an effect later though *weg*.  Is there a canon word
> for "falconer, falconeer, etc (falconry, sport of kings)???  I've been
> trying to find ref's on the Jump Points page for Vilani stuff, but haven't
> found a "dictionary" anywhere....

1)  There's no canon word for this that I'm aware of; 
2)  There's a Vilani dictionary available in a weird database format (from
me) which I'm trying to work on formatting into English-Vilani and
Vilani-English wp/plain text files and putting up on the web.  This isn't
likely to happen any time soon, unless someone volunteers for the
conversion.  

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:34:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Matrix

Well, using the Soulburner engine in G:VE2, if lifeforcewas being sucked
out of the entire population of the Earth at the rate at which they can
recover it, the system would produce 500GW of energy.  That's enough to run
about 5 million cars, for example.



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:11:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>I haven't seen T5, nor Far Trader, but this appears to be a change in
>canon, and it will make jump travel more difficult to implement.  I
>don't think I'll follow it in my Traveller universe.

It may actually be a reversion to early CT material. IIRC Shadow posted a
table a while ago of the jump routes from each system to the next, which
kind of ties in to limited accessability...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:25:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: T5 Jump Masking

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>A hex is a parsec wide!  ;->

Oh my! What about the jump drive problem we haven't considered. Hexes are
bigger across the points than across the flats. What if you jump from the
Far Side of one hex towards another, but your jump drive won't take you out
of the hex because you're jumping point to point..

Is a hex only an approximation, or are RL parsecs six sided?

Dom :-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 16:50:38 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: The Astrogator's Job (was T5 Jump Masking...)

On 04/07/99 at 07:07 AM,  David Smart <warlock@imagin.net> said:

>Um, isn't plotting a Jump course around this stuff what a "navigator"
>is for? If memory serves, a Jump course is plotted before the jump
>and cannot be changed once Jumpspace is entered. I don't believe
>there's ever been anything published which discusses exactly *how*
>the navigator plots the course or what the course entails.

IMTU, yes it is.  However, IMTU, that doesn't mean the ship can
maneuver during jump.  It has to put itself into a position where it
can make a straight line jump.

IMTU, this is what the astrogator and her computer programs are
doing...

1.  Using the "Jump Bible" or making (and double checking)
calculations that result in a plotted course to a point in space
and time where a direct line jump is possible to the target system.
The pilot flies to that point using the plotted course.

2.  Plotting a precise ship orientation pointing the "jump coil" (at
the ship's nose along its centerline) along the jump path.  The
pilot is responsible for maneuvering the ship into that orientation.

3.  Relaying the energy and mass requirements for the jump to the
engineer, who sets up the drive for the jump.  The energy and mass
quantity and timed release requirements vary slightly based on the
volume of the ship and the actual distance to be jumped, so there
are precise calculations here.  On command, from the astrogator, the
engineer energizes both the protective hull grid and the jump coil
and starts the first wave of mass release through grid ports.
Distinctive patters of energy appear on the surface of the hull as
energy interactions take place with the hull material as the jump
field extends through the hull.

4.  Triggering the controlled release of jump mass through the
energized jump coil initiating the 2 to 3 minute "jump window."
This is an artificially created wormhole, IMTU, but the details
don't matter.  To the outside world, the ship disappears and won't
reappear for a week when the "jump bubble" has thinned enough to
collapse.

5.  Using sensors connected to the "astrogation tank" to locate the
target mass.  She looks "through the jump window" and locks the jump
coil's "gravity hook" onto that mass.  There are "impediments" in jump
space that make finding and locking onto a target difficult, the
Jump Bible's data accounts for these impediments, but in *every*
case a skilled astrogator has to make minor corrections during the
very short period of time when the jump window is open before
"setting the hook."  The pilot then flies the ship along the "line"
into the wormhole's mouth.  Most misjumps that happen, happen right
here due to either the pilot not "walking the line" or "the hook not
being set properly."  IMTU, these steps can't be completely
automated.

6.  A week later, more or less, the ship emerges (hopefully at the
target location) and the astrogator plots a route to the target
planet (or station), providing both the course and vector
information to the pilot.  The pilot executes the course, adjusting
the ship's orbital vector to match the target's while enroute.

7.  After arriving in system she will seek to update the ship's
"Jump Bible" with any new data available here, and she will pass on
any new data she got from the ship's previous jump.  Jump route data
does change and becomes more and more unreliable over time.  A bible
a two years out of date is almost useless. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:57:24 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

At 01:47 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Good point.  Hadn't thought of that, but I still kinda' like the screaming
>noise, maybe along the lines of the fan noise of the A-10.  Saw that pup at
>Fleet Week a couple years ago and it was AWESOME!!  There was a lull after a
>prop aerobatic flight, then all of a sudden that big ugly S.O.B. came
>skimmin' at near NOE over the city quiet as Death itself until it was nearly
>overhead, then WHAM it makes a near 90 degree turn and goes vertical!  The
>routine after that was pretty much a blur as I was too busy trying not to
>slip in my own saliva (we were on a sailboat out in the Bay).  VERY cool.
><political comment about A10's in genocidal Serbia clipped since I thought
>better of it and didn't want to offend anyone of Serbian ancestry>.

We had just arrived at Aberdeen Proving Ground for Armed Forces Day a few
years ago when we encountered the A-10.  It did a classic pop up over the
trees and then did a simulated strafing run along the road.  Traffic ground
to a halt and then the 2nd one arrived.  Had we been valid targets I think
we all would have gained a set of wings that day.  And the A-10 has a
_very_ distinctive noise when it flies past, like a cross between a
chainsaw and a blender.



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:37:21 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: True Gearheads...

In a message dated 4/7/99 4:57:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kurt@blazenet.net 
writes:

<< 
 Take a look at the following web site...they must have relation in the TML
 Gearhead family.
  >>
How much you wanna bet this guy started on Barbi Dolls....And how sure can we 
be that he'll stop with Furbi's???....::::shudder::::

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:51:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
>        I personally use Campaign Cartographer 2 from Pro-Fantasy
>("http://www.profantasy.com") for my stuff..   really nice product.

The Mac version is lousy :-/

I use Illustrator when I get time to do any, which isn't often enough.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:02:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps (Background)

Marc Miller (CardSharks@aol.com) wrote:

>TIME TO BREAKOUT
>	A typical jump takes about a week (168 hours). The actual time spent
>is random. Military ships can take slightly less time on average.

Just a quick question: Does this mean that a military squadron has a
tighter spread around 168 hours (say +/-2.5hours) compared to the 168 hours
+/- 16.8 hours for civil ships? Or does it mean that a military ship takes
a different number as a base from 168 hours?

>	Squadron Maneuvers. Highly tuned drives in a squadron of ships, along
>with highly trained crews, can make their emergence from jump very close to
>the same time (within about a 5 hour window).

Sounds good. One question is are these the same highly tuned drives which
are happy to burn unrefined fuel safely, or is it assumed that all Milspec
ships have Fuel Purifiers on board? If unrefined fuel is standard for
military ships does this mean that the jump computer/governor is better
than a standard civil one?

Thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #414
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 415



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)
The Core
Military Traditions (was: Re: The Sound of the Imperium)
Re: True Gearheads...
Grav Drive Sounds (was Re: The sound of the Imperium)
Re: Misjumps (Background)
Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted
Re: JG Products Evaluation Request 
Re: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?
Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)
Re: Drop Tanks et al
Re: IgNoble Etiquette
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: Matrix
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re : Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)
Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts
Re: T5 Jump Masking
Re: The sound of the Imperium
Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:10:50 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)

Michael McKeown wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know of any lighters cruisers the ISS uses? I know there
> is the 800 ton ship in M:0...but other than that I'm not sure of any
> other cruisers than the 75K ton AHL used by the Scouts? I'm hoping
> that First In will have something on this...
> Mike
> 
I don't know of any canon designs out there.  However, AuricTech
Shipyards is more than willing to submit proposals to any interested
parties.  Just give us your design specifications, and we'll do our best
to give you a high-capability, high-cost solution.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:58:03 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: The Core

A question. Has anyone ever figured out how to play the Adventure offline?
It's at>>> http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/home.htm <<<

Thanx,
BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:21:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Military Traditions (was: Re: The Sound of the Imperium)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> The world didn't begin in the 1960's. San Francisco is a major port city with
> a long seafaring heritage, the US Navy is part of that. The people who make
> fleet visit decisions are thinking as part of a 220 year old service, not
> in terms of a 30 year old movement.
> 
> ObTrav: you think our militaries have traditions and protocols now. Wait
> until the 82nd Airborne has 3000+ years of unit history to live up to.
> 
A while back, I speculated about a regiment from that very division,
discussing the probability that there are units with an unbroken lineage
back to the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment in both the Imperial _and_
Solomani armies.

I would think (or, at least, would decree as referee) that the unit
traditions of the Imperial and Solomani editions of the 504th would be
amazingly similar.  Both would have "Tucker's Tankard", or a
reproduction thereof (of course, each would claim to have the original),
first drops with the unit would have similar "cherry" traditions and
rituals, etc.  Of course, YPMV (your parsecage may vary).


- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 15:54:10 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: True Gearheads...

RnLschaefr wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/99 4:57:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kurt@blazenet.net
> writes:
> 
> <<
>  Take a look at the following web site...they must have relation in the TML
>  Gearhead family.
>
> http://www.phobe.com/furby/
>   >>
> How much you wanna bet this guy started on Barbi Dolls....And how sure can we
> be that he'll stop with Furbi's???....::::shudder::::

He's an old friend of mine, actually, and has my vote for "most 
likely to grow up to be a mad scientist."

- -Russell B

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:05:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Grav Drive Sounds (was Re: The sound of the Imperium)

You mean grav drives don't really make that ululating high-pithced sound
from the Jetsons?  Damn, I've been running my campaigns wrong all these
years! 

Charles.

PS. Imagine the sound of a wing of g-tanks coming in if this were the
case: like a bunch of pigeons caught in a fan!  Now, that's how you
reassure the citizens and scare the bad guys! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:31:21 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps (Background)

>>>>
>	Squadron Maneuvers. Highly tuned drives in a squadron of ships,
along
>with highly trained crews, can make their emergence from jump very
close to
>the same time (within about a 5 hour window).

Sounds good. One question is are these the same highly tuned drives
which
are happy to burn unrefined fuel safely, or is it assumed that all
Milspec
ships have Fuel Purifiers on board? If unrefined fuel is standard for
military ships does this mean that the jump computer/governor is
better
than a standard civil one?

Thanks,

Dom
>>>>
My take on this is that the CT reference to military ships being able
to use unrefined fuel was meant to indicate that they had integral fuel
purifiers.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:22:57 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Showcase - exhibitors wanted

In a message dated 4/6/99 8:29:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Clint.Fishback@digital.com writes:

<< I'd give a shot at doing the floorplans if you can do the exterior. >>

Are you mad?...:-) Seriously; the AHL has 84 decks on 60,000 tons. I'm 
talking about a MILLION tons. Granted; most (800,000 tons) is 
battlerider/external demountable fuel tank bays, but this is a LOT of ship to 
draw...As for externals; I can't computer draw to save my life...:-(. Thanks 
for the offer though...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 02:44:56 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: JG Products Evaluation Request 

> 
> 
> Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
> > My Fellow Travellers,
> >
> > After perusing the new Judges' Guild site, I have found that they are
> > making available the following products:
> >

GLIMMERDRIFT REACHES $9

As a general comment, the JG products were characterised by:
- - bad art
- - poor quality paper stock
- - weak to average content
- - grand ambitions

The last occasionally compensated for the first two, and makes some of the 
products quite interesting, notably the four sector guides which made up the 
"Gateway Quadrant". These sector guides are:
- - Ley Sector
- - Glimmerdrift Reaches
- - Maranantha Alkahest Sector
- - Crucis Margin

For each of these, you get: a big map of the sector, standard subsector maps 
and world detail (ie UPP lists), a small amount of background library data and 
a bunch of event/encounter/rumour tables (JG were big on event tables).

They're the best of the JG stuff - since this kind of material can get away 
with being raw background material. There's little to pick between the sector 
modules, although Glimmerdrift Reaches has (IMHO) the best sector name in 
Traveller. I don't think $9 is a bad price for this (it's not that good 
either), the other prices are as Colin pointed out high.

As I remember both the JG and the (much better) Paranoia Press sectors 
(Beyond, Vanguard Reaches) were declared non-canon at some point during the 
DGP era.

TARLKIN'S LANDING

This as has been pointed out is a generic SF "port o call" module, not specifically for traveller. In fact the NPC stats are not UPP-based and don't readily convert over. It's meant to be a generic "starport town". Content is broadly OK, if you have players who just walk into a series of random buildings in starports, with low expectations on what they'll find, but as a utility you'd be better off with 101 Rendezvous from BITS.

It does however have one of the worst covers I've seen, which is basically a giant gorilla, with a scaley head and lower half, lizard claws for feet, a lizard tail, wearing a bra, smoking a cigar, carrying a rifle and taking down the particulars of a glum looking blonde guy in a blue jumpsuit and wearing a tie. Just one of your everyday situations at Tarlkin's Landing.

DARKLING SHIP

3rd in a series of linked scenarios, after Amycus Probe and Rogue Moon of Spinstorme. Not badly done (in relative terms) but like other JG scenarios provides lots of background information and little plot. You'll have to make up the point/outcome of the scenario yourself, or run one out of the event tables.

ASTROGATORS CHARTBOOK

Only for completists. A book of blank charts. In practice you'd be better off with a software based solution, or just photocopies of the blank forms in, say, the Megatraveller Rulebooks. In either case you're either printing or copying onto better paper than is supplied with the JG book.

Rgds
Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:33:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?

In a message dated 4/7/99 1:32:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<< LOL.  Having seen a "Brick" struggle to get off the ground at an
 International Air Tatoo (Brit airshow, for those who didn't know), wallowing
 like a pregnant swan as it lifted with all the grace of the aardvark that it
 so closely resembles, then watching an Avro Vulcan (probably about 7-8 times
 the size, IIRC) do a take-off run then go VERTICAL as it left the runway, I
 know which I would prefer!  I know that may not seem important, but when a
 missile is about to goose you, it matters...
  >>

Interesting; I would have thought that the swing wing vark would have had the 
advantage over a delta wing vulcan at slow speeds like take off/landing. Of 
course the Vulcan looks cooler (like a giant bat or manta ray...) so a Vargr 
would love it...:-). I also think that the vark has a smaller radar cross 
signature than the vulcan as she's a much smaller bird...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:44:23 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)

In a message dated 4/7/99 7:44:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< Does anyone know of any lighters cruisers the ISS uses? I know there 
 is the 800 ton ship in M:0...but other than that I'm not sure of any 
 other cruisers than the 75K ton AHL used by the Scouts? I'm hoping 
 that First In will have something on this...
 Mike >>

LBB supp7 has a 30.000 ton light cruiser that has jump5. While she's navy; I 
don't see why she can't be used by the scouts...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:47:18 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks et al

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Drop tanks et al
>
>> Minimal impact ... I Dont Think So.
>
>How bout Not a Catastrophic Impact?  Really, my whole point has been Not a 
>Castrophic Impact In the Lifespan of a Campaign.  Especially if there are a 
>couple of disasters that should shake confidence in the safety and/or real 
>efficiency of them?  

If you think that dropping the repayment horizon from 40 years to 10 years
on your starship mortgage isnt a catastophic impact for a small trader,
then I'm not sure what you think would be one.

>
>> Bluntly, if you can't pony up at least a million in cash at any point, you
>> shouldnt pretend that you can effectively run a merchant starship.
>
>I'll bet that's true for alot of hapless small-fry traders out there (who 
>really can't effectively run a merchant starship, but make great adventurers 
>and smugglers, etc).  I know my PCs zeroed out the M&R fund more than once 
>after expensive repairs, and another disaster (failed or disasterous run, 
>more severe damage, etc) in too short a time would've left them screwed and 
>desperate (and ripe for another adventure).  Getting a loan or something is 
>always a possiblity, but usually from guys who send people to break your 
>fingers when you're late, and/or taking out a 2nd or 3rd mortgage on the 
>ship.  ;-)

Your point being ? With vaguely efficient financial intermediaries, you can
always turn equity or cash-flow into cash. One excellent thing about G:T FT
is that it deals with the messy business of borrowing money, futures
contracts and so on. The loss of this sort of infrastructure during the
Long Night and (to a lesser extent) the Hard Times was a major reason both
the Second and Third Imperiums went to hell in a handbasket.

The other point to remember is that drop tanks make jump-5 and jump-6 ships
far, far more viable, especially for time sensitive cargos like people. The
equivalent is probably the 1930s - even if the PCs are running a tramp
steamer in and around the Indian Ocean, they would still know about BOAC's
Australia-London air route.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:29:49 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: IgNoble Etiquette

Gary (TravelrTNE@aol.com) writes:

>>You see, that's one of the problems with the fact that Imperial noblemen
>>have titles that LOOKS like those we are familiar with from history. But
>>an Imperial Marquis is often a world ruler. That's more powerful than any
>>man in the history of Earth has ever been.
> 
>Yeah, but excepting the high population worlds, the pop density is pretty 
>low, w/ most of a world unpopulated excepting a few notable centers.  The 
>average Imperial Marquis is not what your comment would make him out to be, 
>no?  But rather something comparable to his 17th century, don't you think?

What I think is that not every world in the Imperium rates an Imperial
marquis. Worlds with low-medium populations would only rate a baron and
low-population worlds would be lumped with another world or group of worlds
to form one fief. Lewis/Aramis, for instance, is the personal fief of
Leonard Bolden-Tukera, Marquis of Aramis. The baron of Yori/Regina (Norris)
is also the Marquis of Regina.

Now, it's true that not _all_ Imperial marquesses will be more powerful than
a present-day emperor. Marquis Leonard, for example, only rule 650,000 people
or so (IMO he would be one of the weakest marquesses in the Imperium; YMMV).
But some of them will be, and by association they will influence the
standing of their peers. In any case, they will still be _rarer_ than
present-day emperors.

>>But how many of them are likely to be serving as enlisted men or customs
>>inspectors?
> 
>LOL.  It doesn't sound like there would be many.  I've always had the 
>impression that the Imperial nobility didn't behave like medieval nobility.  

I agree. But you can't tell by the way many adventure writers use them at
the drop of a hat.

>There isn't a "born to rule" philosophy so much, rather than the Imperial 
>nobility were well raised and trained well to do their jobs, by the 
>priveledge of their upbringing.  But nothing that implies that simply because 
>someone is even a Duke's child, that he is automatically put in charge of 
>armies or fleets, etc.

I agree. But the fact that your father can afford to buy you a country out
of petty cash would IMO tend to be reflected in your career choices. Not to
mention how everybody ELSE treat you...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 02:29:17 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

On 07 Apr, Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
> At 09:33 AM 4/7/99 -0300, you wrote:
> >>A hex is a parsec across.  A parsec is approximately 207000 AU.  Sol's
> >>solar system is 150AU across.  On that scale, the chances of the system
> >>being in the line of travel are very small.

> >In otherwords, Jump Masking is a Non-Issue.  The only time you need
> >to worry about it is with a Black-hole, neutron star, a nebula or an
> >annoying GM.

> No.   It's a non-issue for crossing a hex with a system, but it _is_ an
> issue when you are entering that system.   You are forcefull placing
> yourself near the 100D spheres of interference.

As I understand it, the main point about jump masking is the position
of the Star in the system you are leaving or entering.

Eg - the Earth is at the Sun's 100D limit (approx.). If your destination
is on the same side of the Sun as the Earth, then you only have to travel
to the Earth's 100D limit (about 800kkm).

If your destination is on the otherside of the Sun, then you first have to
travel about 100Mkm so the Sun's 100D limit is not in the way.

Or you can wait up to 6 months of the Earth to orbit the Sun and bring
your destination into view.

So the travel times in normal space can vary massively and these
variations will be seasonal.

The same calculation applies at the destination.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:18:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Matrix

At 05:34 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, using the Soulburner engine in G:VE2, if lifeforcewas being sucked
>out of the entire population of the Earth at the rate at which they can
>recover it, the system would produce 500GW of energy.  That's enough to run
>about 5 million cars, for example.

Just a reminder:  if your post is going to reveal *anything* about a book
or movie plot, please put the *SPOILER!* label in the subject line.

Some of us haven't seen the film yet.

thank you.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:31:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

At 12:21 PM 4/7/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we have Fleet Week every fall, when
>the Navy sends jet fighters low over the city.  In light of the area's
>long history of opposition to the military and to other institutions and
>cultural norms (this was the site of the largest protests against the
>Gulf War; Berkeley was the seat of anti-Vietnam radicalism, etc.), I
>can't help but wonder whether the Navy is more interested in
>intimidating us than reassuring us.

We also *used* to have Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Alameda Naval Station
(home of the "nuclear wessels" of ST:IV fame), Alameda NAS, Moffett Field
NAS, Hamilton AFB, Treasure Island, The Presidio of San Francisco (US
Army), Ft. Ord, etc, etc..

All of these are now closed.

San Francisco has a military tradition going bck to the building of Ft.
Point during the civil war.  Many roads in the Presidio are named after the
shore defense batteries that used to be there.  

During WWII, the Bay Area was a hotbed of military and naval activity, with
thousands of Marines and soldiers embarking from here.  Many Liberty ships
were built in the bay (including the Jeremiah O'Brien, which you can still
see today at Pier 32).  One of the most popular hotels is the Marines'
Memorial on Sutter Street (the street is named after the US Army Captain
who first rowed across the Golden Gate, becoming the first commuter in SF
history.)

San Franciscans will protest anything.  Trust me.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 20:57:05 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Scout light cruisers (Was Re: AHL?)

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> Michael McKeown wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know of any lighters cruisers the ISS uses? I know there
> > is the 800 ton ship in M:0...but other than that I'm not sure of any
> > other cruisers than the 75K ton AHL used by the Scouts? I'm hoping
> > that First In will have something on this...
> > Mike
> >
> I don't know of any canon designs out there.  However, AuricTech
> Shipyards is more than willing to submit proposals to any interested
> parties.  Just give us your design specifications, and we'll do our best
> to give you a high-capability, high-cost solution.
> 
In the AuricTech tradition of anticipating end-user needs, the GRAN
FENWICK class Scout cruiser IISS SHANGRI-LA is available for download at
my Web site (I haven't yet had time to translate the ship into text, so
all that's there now is the .zip file of the Akins v3.2 spreadsheet for
Excel 5.0).

Designer's notes:

The GRAN FENWICK class Scout cruiser, of which IISS SHANGRI-LA is a
typical example, meets an anticipated IISS proposal for a Jump-5, 4G
warship, of 20-30 Kdt, capable of serving in both reconnaissance and
combat roles.  Using the proven 11.1 k-Mj NPAW spinal weapon found on
the ST. LOUIS class light cruiser (upgraded to TL15, and reduced to a
ROF of 200 to allow for a smaller, stealthier power plant), the GRAN
FENWICK class is quite capable of fighting ships of 50 Kdt on nearly
equal terms.  The 500 mkm PEMS suite allows the GRAN FENWICK class to
find potentially-hostile ships first, and is supported by an extensive
science-grade sensor suite, including densitometer and neutrino
sensors.  To avoid detection, the GRAN FENWICK class makes extensive use
of stealth, visual coatings, IR masking, and neutrino masking
technologies.

The GRAN FENWICK class is designed for long-term habitability.  Every
crewbeing has an individual small stateroom (the captain and senior
department heads are issued large staterooms).  Sufficient provisions of
Good quality are provided to enable the GRAN FENWICK class cruiser to
undertake cruises of up to 52 weeks duration.  There are two lounges,
each of 50 dtons, and each equipped with a snack bar/galley capable of
feeding 60 crewbeings.  Further, the GRAN FENWICK design includes six
standard gym facilities, which exceed Imperial standards for exercise
facilities per 100 crewmembers.

The long-term habitability of the GRAN FENWICK class is not achieved at
the expense of mission capability, however.  In addition to the
extensive sensor suite, the GRAN FENWICK class sports a 50 dton Combat
Information Center.  For long-term surveillance of target worlds, 4
passive radio-frequency receivers, each of 10,000 AU range, are linked
both to the CIC and to a dedicated fiber-optic computer.

The small craft complement carried by GRAN FENWICK class, two 30 dton
ship's boats and 6 50 dton modular cutters, provides ample transport for
the 40 ship's troops routinely embarked, as well as for additional
mission requirements.

At scarcely over 70 BCr per ship, the GRAN FENWICK Scout light cruiser
class provides capabilities not found in designs of twice this price.



> --
> ------
> |    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> |JOLT|
> |COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
> |    |
> ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 21:09:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> We also *used* to have Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Alameda Naval Station
> (home of the "nuclear wessels" of ST:IV fame), Alameda NAS, Moffett Field
> NAS, Hamilton AFB, Treasure Island, The Presidio of San Francisco (US
> Army), Ft. Ord, etc, etc..
> 
> All of these are now closed.

Well, if you get to count the Planet Ord, you can at least continue to
count the Presidio of Monterey, which is home to the Defense Language
Institute (which, in turn, was my home for the 63 weeks of the Basic
Arabic course in 1984-1985).
> 
> San Francisco has a military tradition going bck to the building of Ft.
> Point during the civil war.  Many roads in the Presidio are named after the
> shore defense batteries that used to be there.
> 
The Presidio of Moterey was established in 1770, and is thus older than
the Army which now employs it as an installation.  IIRC, the Presidio of
San Francisco was also established prior to 14 June 1775, and was thus
also older than the US Army.  (BTW, for those who haven't been there,
the walking trails on the former Presidio of San Francisco are
_outstanding_.)

ObTrav:  Consider what happens to a world that formerly hosed a
Depot-level facility, only to lose that facility to military
cutbacks....

<<snip>
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

Does your sig file have anything to do with Emperor Norton's proposal
for the Bay Bridge?  Fnord.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:54:15 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)

Anders Backman wrote :-
> I don't remember the TL
> of the machine but it couldn't be all that high as truth drugs (canon for
> shure) effectively eliminate that need for truth-machines.

'Truth drugs' exist now.
If one gives a subanesthetic dose of an intravenous induction agent,
people are often sufficiently disinhibited to answer just about any
question you ask them. That's the theory, anyway. The actual practice
would appear to be fairly ineffective.

Thiopentone ('Pentothal') was used as an adjunct to psychotherapy after
World War 2.

One assumes that the pharmaceuticals get better at higher TLs...

(Ahh, so 'Murder At Arcturus Station' has a polygraph+. Hmm....)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 12:58:24 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

Glenn M. Goffin writes :-
<interesting summary of space hospital ship crew doing cool stuff>

I wrote :-
> In my experience, there are only a few basic 'medical plots'.
> i. Disaster scenes (individual or mass casualties, be they from
> 2. Mystery plots (Why did the patient present like that? Are there
> 3. Romance (often highly inappropriate, and in most hospital settings,
> 

Note the opening line of the above quote, and my signature line.

Star Trek style plots involving the cook and the cleaning staff are all
well and good, but don't connote 'medical plots' to me.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Apr 99 22:14:22 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: T5 Jump Masking

On 04/08/99 at 02:29 AM,  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> said:

>As I understand it, the main point about jump masking is the position
>of the Star in the system you are leaving or entering.

That's the way I play it.

>So the travel times in normal space can vary massively and these
>variations will be seasonal.

Right!

>The same calculation applies at the destination.

And it brings options, do you try for a hard plot skimming the
100dia limit trying to get close to the main world, do you make an
easy jump and have a longer run in time, or *can* you jump to that
gas giant and cut your angle reduce your run in time?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:09:14 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium

> Ob Traveller:  What sound does contra-grav make, if any?  I've always
> assumed that it's more or less silent, but have no basis for that
> assumption.  If it is silent, what do military powers do to assert their
> presence with civilians without actually shooting?

IIRC, it just nullifies, so probably no sound there.  I'd have a sound (in an 
atmosphere) for HEPlaR and even T-plates, though... ;-)  What should they 
sound like?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:09:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

> It seems to me that the current raging debate on drop tanks is getting
> longer
> and longer (as the participants counter each other line by line) while
> giving
> us less and less useful information.
 
I've gotten a lot useful out of it.  We got some thoroughly useful details of 
economics by the very authors of Far Trader.  The Jump masking thread came 
from this,too, IIRC, as did the one on misjumps (though less sure on that 
one).  Jump projectors, too, though that's been pretty limited...

I think I might actually start using drop tanks (whereas before I never 
ignored them, just didn't think worth putting on... i knew there were 
benefits, but there's a logistical problem behind them, too, as well as other 
issues that have been discussed in this thread).  That's pretty significant 
for me.  

You can always delete a subject that doesn't appeal to you.  I'm on the 
digest and "page down" over things that don't interest me all the time.  It 
appears to be winding down, anyways, but we'll see...  As far as the line by 
line reply, it is getting long.  I'll see what I can do to better summarize 
and/or paraphrase from now on.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #415
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 416



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Matrix
re: The Sound of the Imperium
Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?
Re: Drop Tanks et al 
Re: The Matrix
Re: autofire/rapid fire (long)
Re: Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage)
Re: Drop Tanks [long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:09:13 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Matrix

oh. btw.  Spoilers, don't read if you haven't and want to see the Matrix. 
Sorry, haven't mentioned it before.

> > Yeah.  I'd buy that.  Especially for the "normal" people in the matrix.
> > Otherwise, it would be run w/ your normal skills, etc, but the possiblity 
of
> > bending rules.  Noone was capable of breaking the rules except Neo, even 
the
> > Agents only bended rules, but noone besides Neo and the Agents could move
> > that fast, etc.
> 
> They said, and I guess we must accept, that some rules can be bent,
> and some can be broken.  (IMHO, if they can be bent, they can all be
> broken).  

I dont' remember it being said that rules could be broken (except possibly by 
"the One").  

> What Morpheus and gang can do is use their Willpower to
> enforce their will, i.e., belief or desire, upon the Matrix.  Where Neo

Yeah.  Willpower sounds good.  So maybe normal skill use, etc but every now 
and then "willpower" to always grant outstanding success or something?  I 
intend to actually use something like this for an upcoming adventure...  

How would you do the "downloaded" skills?  Should people w/ Neural Jacks be 
treated like they have implant computers from FF&S?  Maybe download a skill 
at a time and it then fades?  Get too many skill/levels that way and you have 
a psychotic episode?   Otherwise, everyone's gonna want one and start 
cramming on skills if there's no downside or drawbacks.  I'm not out for a 
fiat "game balance" rule though.... never did like them much.

> can eventually, make new rules, or totally disregard existing ones, e.g.,
> his little feat at the end.  They should have been doing that kind of stuff
> from the beginning.  Heck, why don't they just make the people they

Nah.  I like it the way they did it.  Course, I never try to analyze a movie 
till afterwards, if everything initially sounds viable.  I had a good 
impression of the Matrix, though, so that probably kept me from picking it 
apart.  ;-) 

Plus, Neo didn't believe he was "the One" until the end and couldn't see the 
actual workings of the matrix, nor just destroy the agents (and/or remove 
them from the program).

> take out of the Matrix beleive that they're Superman.  Bullets no problem.
> No reason to even go that far.  Just hack a newborn out of the Matrix,
> raise it in that construct, give it superpowers, let it loose in the Matrix.
> Boom.  Or perhaps easier, use religion to take advantage of the belief
> of those in the Matrix, so as to give them power over it.

I don't think believing your'e superman or a new prophet or something would 
work. You'd still be subject to the rules. They can be "bent" but not broken 
(except by someone like "the One" (w/ comp. empathy or something).  You 
wouldn't be ressurecting people since their [real] bodies were unplugged and 
liquified and fed to teh others.  The agents would still kick some ass too 
since they can majorly fudge the rules (w/ that speed punching, etc).  Neo 
alone, i think, could break the rules.  In game terms, I think i'd start Neo 
getting instruction w/ willpower, etc, then once he's convinced, he can 
control his computer empathy (in the beginning when he's sparring w/ 
Morpheus, it was reflex... i'd make the roll myself until the player "knows" 
he has the power and/or experiments enough to "prove" it to himself).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:08:56 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: re: The Sound of the Imperium

> ObTrav: you think our militaries have traditions and protocols now. Wait
> until the 82nd Airborne has 3000+ years of unit history to live up to.

> Walt Smith

(  Insert: Sounds of a suppressed Anglophile coming from the back:
   "... King Richard  <Ummpf> ..... 400 Years of Tra.... <Grunt> ...
    ... The Black Watch... <Gurgle> ... FOR KING AND... << SLAM >>  )

Well yeah, IIRC your Imperial Marines are decended from the 82nd Airborne.
The most interesting threads would be the mixture of their
essentially democratic origin, their Rule of Man "Naval Junta"
expansion, their use as troops by ????? on ????? during the Long Night,
and their resurrection as the Imperial Marines by Cleon I.

Question: the times that would shape them most, I guess, would
be their creation as elite troops of the democratic USA during
the Totalitarian Era (WW II /Cold War) and their long stay on a certain
planet during the long night.  Given any though on which planet, and for
which nation/noble?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: alvin.plummer@idirect.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:58:40 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

Date:	Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:29:38 -0700
From:	"Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject:	Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

Almost makes you wish we had Clif back, doesn't it?

Nope, and if I ever get to such a wretched stage, I may as well go the whole
hog and hire an Agony Aunt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:22:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks et al 

> >How bout Not a Catastrophic Impact?  Really, my whole point has been Not a
> >Castrophic Impact In the Lifespan of a Campaign.  Especially if there are a
> >couple of disasters that should shake confidence in the safety and/or real
> >efficiency of them?
> 
> If you think that dropping the repayment horizon from 40 years to 10 years
> on your starship mortgage isnt a catastophic impact for a small trader,
> then I'm not sure what you think would be one.

How bout on a campaign?  Possibly for teh whole universe, but nothing that 
has to affect any characters over the lifespan of a camapaign.  From what 
I've read from the Far Trader economic analysis, I wouldn't even call it 
"catastrophic."  Noticible... maybe even significant... but not catastrophic. 
 But this can probably only lead to semantic games.

> >> Bluntly, if you can't pony up at least a million in cash at any point, 
you
> >> shouldnt pretend that you can effectively run a merchant starship.
> >
> >I'll bet that's true for alot of hapless small-fry traders out there (who
> >really can't effectively run a merchant starship, but make great 
adventurers
> >and smugglers, etc).  I know my PCs zeroed out the M&R fund more than once
> >after expensive repairs, and another disaster (failed or disasterous run,
> >more severe damage, etc) in too short a time would've left them screwed and
> >desperate (and ripe for another adventure).  Getting a loan or something is
> >always a possiblity, but usually from guys who send people to break your
> >fingers when you're late, and/or taking out a 2nd or 3rd mortgage on the
> >ship.  ;-)
> 
> Your point being ? With vaguely efficient financial intermediaries, you can

Err... that it's fairly easily conceivable for there to not be "at least a 
million in cash
at any point?"  That was what u wanted an answer to, right?  Or was it 
rhetorical?

> always turn equity or cash-flow into cash. One excellent thing about G:T FT
> is that it deals with the messy business of borrowing money, futures
> contracts and so on. The loss of this sort of infrastructure during the
> Long Night and (to a lesser extent) the Hard Times was a major reason both
> the Second and Third Imperiums went to hell in a handbasket.

I'm sure the Reavers and Lucan's Black War were also noticible, not to 
mention a certain Virus.  ;-)  I agree w/ you completely, though.  I intend 
to get Far Trader, but don't see any reason to believe that it's the end of 
Traveller economics as we know it.  If anything this thread has proven that 
belief (based on economic analysis posted to the list on MT (TNE uses the 
same economics system) and GT:FT).

> The other point to remember is that drop tanks make jump-5 and jump-6 ships
> far, far more viable, especially for time sensitive cargos like people. The

How?  Maybe under book 2, but not under anything since IIRC.  You can get 3 
jump 2s maybe (in 3 weeks), but that's not the same as Jump 6 in one week.  
But you still face an enormous risk on a catastrophic run, especially in 
something like the Beowulf, which is only marginally profitable to begin w/.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:34:15 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix

- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: The Matrix


>The movie is quite enjoyable, especially for its production values, special
>effects
>and action.  But the plot is pure Philip K. Dick.  And not just one work of
>Dick's
>but an idea you can see in a great deal of his work.

To be fair though, you can say this about many books, movies and even
roleplaying games (and especially Traveller).

Where would Terminator have been without Ellison's Outer Limits episode
soldier? Large chunks of the film were lifted directly from the TV show.
Where would the film version of Blade Runner have been without the play
Rossum's Universal Robots? In books, Haldeman's Forever War wouldn't have
existed without Starship Troopers. Back to movies, the beloved sci-fi series
Star Wars is simply a retooling of the peasant hero myths of many countries,
with a hefty helping of Akira Kurusawa (sp?) tossed in for comic relief.
Messiah legends were around long before Herbert wrote the Dune series... and
then there are of course roleplaying games, and the one we discuss on this
mailing list in particular.

The Foundation series, the Dune series, Starship Troopers, Alien even to
some extent Star Wars all influenced the game that we love and discuss. I'm
using the term "influenced" here, but I've heard people use less flattering
and polite terms... ;^)

>Don't look too close toward
>realistic consequences of the dramatic foundations.  Just enjoy the moving
>pictures,
>IMHO.


Not sure what you mean here exactly. I'm assuming that you mean that there's
no real underlying logic to the film and it's simply eye candy. I would
disagree, not simply because I liked the film but also because there was.

>Well, maybe.  But I think it has more to do with Willpower, at least
>generally. I would say that Neo develops Computer Empathy later,
>or becomes aware of his ability in it.


***potential spoilers ahead***


My own two cents on this one:

I wouldn't say Willpower exactly, it's something a little less definable.
There's also a good deal of mechanics going on behind the scenes as well.
After all, why do you think that they had Operators sitting behind the
scenes at consoles?

The way that I'd personally do a game version of the concept:

There'd be an advantage called Matrix Synergy or something similar. It would
be similar to Psionics in CT (if you don't have it, you don't have it). This
would allow pretty much complete control, with certain limitations, over
one's representation in the Matrix. This would be far too powerful an
advantage to give to a character in a game, in my opinion.

To simulate the kinds of things that Morpheus and Trinity were able to do
there'd be certain little perks that the characters could learn over time.
Jumping and running rules might be changed slightly, for example. Their
number of attacks per round might be upped slightly here and there. All of
this would require periods of intense training.

On the other hand, skills could be learned extremely quickly. Skills would
become something of a non-issue with a few limitations. The skill might not
exist in the team's "skill pool" (what, you need to play a sitar? Tough
luck!).

Skills that rely entirely on rote memorization could be learned in an
instant and on the fly, while skills that require more than one discipline
(such as martial arts) might take a little longer. Of course this would be
modified by the skill of the party's Operator. There is a limitation on the
ability to learn skills. Neo was able to learn many different sorts of
martial arts over a long period of time while it was clearly indicated that
nobody else had been able to spend as much time having this stuff fed into
their heads.

Further, a handwave could be made that team Operators have to be humans who
have never been hooked into the Matrix. Perhaps in the real world the former
inhabitants of the Matrix have only a fraction of the dexterity and fine
motor skills that their virtual versions have?

There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:38:09 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire (long)

Dear Folks -

Shawn asked:
>MT rules system:

>Gauss rifle has 3 autofire targets
>autofire rules say 3 additional adjacacent targets can be made
>rapid fire says increase difficulty by 1, 3 primary targets can be
choosen.

>Does this mean that a gauss rifle, conducting rapid fire, has the ability
to
>hit 4 targets 3 times?

>Is their any reason why the autofire targets can't be the same target? For
>example, if their is only one target, why can't you "unload" your weapon
on
>that one target and get 12 chances to hit? or spread it out between 2
>targets with 6 possible hits each?

Everyone got side-tracked with the duct-taped gauss rifles, but no-one
answered the original question. Joe Fugate replied to this question in
Digest 12, but I'll try to give you the short version!

- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
COMBINATION ATTACKS IN MT COMBAT

Joe Fugate states that the key to resolving combination attacks in MT is to
use common sense, and take it a step at a time.

1.   ALWAYS determine a single primary target BEFORE you begin resolving
hits.

"Once the single primary target has been identified in a combination
attack, it remains the primary target for the entire combination attack. If
the firing unit wants a shifting primary target, then he is conducting
rapid fire instead." (Digest 12, p 42)

Determining the primary target saves a lot of headaches, as it becomes the
reference point.

Line of fire (Player's Manual p 72) comes into play here. Joe's solution is
to make the closest target in the line of fire the DEFAULT primary target,
all others in the same range band being secondary targets. Preferred target
precedence is:
     1.   Primary target;
     2.   Targets adjacent to the primary target AND in the line of fire;
     3.   Targets adjacent to the primary target and NOT in the line of
fire.

However, you can target something in the line of fire but behind the
default primary target if you use the Pinpoint Location rule - that is, you
must achieve Exceptional Success.

Here's Joe's example done in cheesy ASCII art:
- ---------------------
+--+--+--+     +--+
|  |Hu|  |     |  | <-- one 1.5m square
+--+--+--+     +--+
|As|Ro|Hi|
+--+--+--+
|  |Va|Dr|
+--+--+--+
|  |  |  |
+--+--+--+
|  |  |  |
+--+--+--+
|  |PC|  | <-- has ARL with HE!!
+--+--+--+
- ---------------------
Diagram 1: PC with ARL fires into melee ("with friends like these...")

In Diagram 1, the PC toting the assault rocket launcher wants to shoot the
Robot (more fool him ;-). This means that the Vargr, Robot, and Human are
in the line of fire, while the Aslan, Hiver, and Droyne are adjacent. The
Vargr becomes the DEFAULT primary target - sorry! To make the Robot the
primary target, the PC must Pinpoint it with Exceptional Success, otherwise
he hits the Vargr.

2.   Resolve autofire hits first

Roll "to hit" the primary target, then roll an identical "to hit" task for
the secondary target(s) - player's choice. In fact, all the autofire hits
may be applied to the primary target.

Evaluate the Penetration for each autofire shot and apply the damage.

Using Diagram 1 above, we assume the PC hits the Robot (requires
Exceptional Success), so the Robot becomes the primary target. The PC still
has two autofire hits left, and targets the Robot again - but must still
roll Exceptional Success. In Joe's example, one shot misses completely and
one hits but without Exceptional Success - the PC hits the Vargr. Ouch!

3.   Resolve danger space hits

"Danger space represents how much the weapon "splatters" or "sprays" when
it hits; that is, what collateral damage the weapon does to nearby targets
when it hits the primary target. These collateral hits are known as _group
hits_."

[In other words, p 72 of the Player's Manual is poorly edited - weapons
with a Danger Space of more than one square will cause Group Hits, and the
two should have been explained under the one heading!]

Translate Danger Space in metres to the number of squares. An ARL with HE
has a Danger Space of 3 metres, so this means 2 squares in every direction
including the point of impact - ie, a 3x3 square centred on the impact
point:
- ---------------------
+--+--+--+     +--+
|YY|YY|YY|     |  | <-- one 1.5m square
+--+--+--+     +--+
|YY|XX|YY|
+--+--+--+
|YY|YY|YY|
+--+--+--+

YY = square hit with half Pen effect
XX = square hit with full Pen effect
- ---------------------
Diagram 2: Danger Space of an ARL with HE rounds

Note that the effect in the XX square is usually ignored, since the primary
target has been hit with the full effect anyway, but _will_ be a concern if
someone is grappling the primary target!

Back to our example in Diagram 1: the hit on the Robot puts the Aslan,
Human, Hiver, Vargr, and Droyne in the danger space. Roll a Group Hit
(using the same "to hit" task from before) on each one. Penetration is
halved, however.

The hit on the Vargr puts the Aslan, Hiver, and Droyne in the danger zone.
Roll a Group Hit against each one - again, Pen is halved. The lucky Human
is outside the zone and takes no more hits!!

4.   Rapid Fire

Joe does not address this in detail, however his passing comment (see "1"
above) indicates to me that you repeat steps 1-3 for each primary target.
It sounds reasonable to me that if you can "empty your weapon" at three
separate targets, why not just one? That is, with a gauss rifle, you can
conduct a full autofire attack (as discussed above) three times at the one
target.

So in answer to Shawn, I would say you are nearly right - instead of
attacking 4 targets 3 times each, you can attack 3 targets 4 times each.
With the gauss rifle having one primary target and three additional
autofire targets per autofire attack, in one round you can shoot at the
same target 12 times!!!

The only drawbacks are that you empty your weapon, and that the Difficulty
goes up by one - even at Short range, every shot becomes Difficult.
However, I know this guy with Combat Rifleman-6... ;-)

One Rapid Fire rule I added IMTU is that of Suppression Fire: characters in
an area where Rapid Fire is being conducted must make a morale check or
else duck for cover (evade). [Based on the example above, are you
surprised? ;-)]

5.   The TL 12 4mm Gauss Rifle - my editorial comments

I have said for years that the gauss rifle is the MOST devastating
Traveller small arm in CT/MT. I mean, a Pen of 7 out to 500m, damage 4, etc
etc! BTW, remember that the rifle fires either 1, 4, or 10 rounds per pull
of the trigger (Book 4). My ruling for MT is that a 4-round burst only
allows 2 extra autofire targets, while the 10-round burst allows the three
as shown. Using it for Rapid Fire means that you empty the entire 40-round
magazine in one go - next round, reload, with no fire possible!

Note that the damage given in MT is wrong, it should be a 4D weapon if you
check Book 4. I _think_ this is covered in the errata. Also, if you read
the description, it should have the "**"" gyro-stabilised rating, which I
_don't_ think is in the errata!

References:
Joe D. Fugate Sr, "Traveller Q&A", _Digest 12_, DGP, Boise, ID, USA, 1988,
pp 42-43.
Joe D. Fugate Sr and Gary L Thomas, _MegaTraveller Player's Manual_, GDW,
Bloomington, IL, USA, 1987.
Marc Miller, _Book 5: Mercenary_, GDW, Bloomington, IL, USA, 1981?.
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Oh well, failed the short version. Hope this helps, anyway!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:45:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage)

>Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:36:58 +0200 (METDST)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>I also think, that if they exist there are quite a number of places where
>>it wuold be odd that a drop tanks ship wasn't used.

>Certainly. I agree completely. You'd expect to see jump-6 drop liners
>jumping between Rhylanor and Mora (via Heroni), for instance. But how many
>places have you seen described in adventures and other writeups where it is
>actually ODD that they aren't mentioned?

Are you saying that it could be that there are
jump 6 drop ships travelling the main routes and it just wasn't
worth mentioning?  That doesn't work for me at all.
Even if it doesn't directly affect the PC, the description
of the backgrond is something that I want to be consistent.

It also means that jump-6 couriers aren't as special as
the Rebelion sourcebook implies.  In fact, I seems to
me that jump-6 ships become cheap enough that the j-4
X-boats do become pointless.  To me it doesn't
doesn't fit the idea that a jump-1 or jump-2 ships carrying
a cargo over long distances (like in the Traveller adventure).
They should be just ferrying cargo to and from the smallest
worlds, they can't compete.  It should also meant that PC will,
if they need to get someplace in a hurry have to decide
if they want to switch to j-6 drop ships (as opposed
to switching to a jump-3 or jump-4 liner).

You also have problem with military situations.  Aside from
issues of how far you can jump into enemy space, etc. the
classic a fleet jumping in and having to engage or refuel
before it can jump out becomes obsolete.  If you have
drop tanks you don't have to jump in with empty tanks.
But this is not a trivial part of the background.

>>It also, IMO, has a ripple affect and the gains in losses in economics
>>due to them should be affecting who the PC see running things, etc.
>
>Like who? What I'm asking for are canonical examples.
>
>>It also means that PC should, if they travel on commercial ships, be
>>leaving from jump stations.
>
>Sure. If my players ever needed to get from Mora to Rhylanor and didn't
>have a ship, they'd be travelling by drop liner. That's IMTU. But what
>EVIDENCE do you have that they wouldn't do the same in the OTU?

Well, I don't know about you, but in my games I have had situations
where the evil bad guys had to stop the PC before they left
port.  With a drop liner you can have a shot at them at
the jump gate.

The issue above on military situation also applies to if
PC are going to be be the ones ambushed after they have
jumped in and need to refuel.

What is more, I don't find treating what the PC are doing
in a vacuum to be statisfying.  I want their actions to
exist in the context of the setting.  If the setting has
drop tanks, then it should reflect that as reasonably
as possible.  They should be affecting the timeline which
_will_ affect my PCs.


>>What happens there?  Does it eliminate piracy like Ian (?) claims?
>
>Let's not go there, right? Since I believe piracy would be almost non-
>existent WITHOUT drop stations, I don't think it would be a good idea
>for us to reopen that line of argument, do you? ;-)

Well, since this issue means that I am moved toward your situation
of not believing the piracy encounter tables, maybe this
is all an illuminati plot to make me feel your pain :-).
You can feel my pain by noting that these rules give me
as many problems as piracy gives you (depending on how
much pain you feel :-)

>
>>Do the PC get hired by General Shipyards because they are rich from them
>>or by Oberlindes because they are poor?
>
>The only adventure I recall where either Oberlindes or GS hired any PCs,
>Oberlindes did it because they had a ship.

Right, and the context of why Oberlindes hires them should fit
the background.  If they are being driven out of business
by drop tanks, then I expect that to be reflected in what my
PC see.

>>Has GS become so powerful that they monopolize shipping to the point that
>>even Free Traders have to cowtow to them?
>
>No. GS got dumped from the drop liner project because of quality control
>issues.

OK, so we ask the same question about another corps....

>>...Is the threat of a Zhodani war gone becuase the Imperium has them?

>No. Why should it be? If anything, warfare is one of the factors that
>count against drop stations, since they are more vulnerable to raids.

Military ships will use them as an adjuct to internal tankage.
Letting them jump twice before they have to refuel (meaning
the Zhodani have to protect at least twice as much territory),
letting them jump in with full loads (the Imperials don't
have to worry about running High Guard), they either take
the system and fuel at their leasure or just jump backout,
and other situations that might come up if I wasn't doing this
off the top of my head.

>>It the PCs are running a trader, how does drop tanks
>>ships affect their competition?

>Most PCs operate between systems where drop freight service is not
>available.

Both the Traveller adventure and Twilights peak had the PC
operating between decent sized systems and over long distances.

>>If you think about it (and people will) questions are going to come up.
>>If they aren't dealt with, it will seem odd and make the setting hokey.

>Agreed. That's why I want the questions explored. If I could think of
>a good adventure where a drop liner was an integral factor (and not just
>a paste-on), I'd like to write it.

Well, we had previously agreed, I thought, that drop tanks
made a difference in the setting but that you liked the idea
of the setting exploring the change in how FTL works and
I didn't.

Though I think that GT is increasing painting a picture of a
setting where drop tank ships operating between decent sized
world is inconsitent.

>>They also have the problem in that they firmly establish that jump fuel
>>can be converted to power and should be usable for other purposes.
>
>They're not alone in that. The MT material is pretty explicit on that
>point without mentioning drop tanks at all.

Yeah, that is true.  OTOH, if you want to change that, and I agree
that it is problem (weren't you one of the people trying to
covince me of that? :-), then they are something you have
to loose anyway.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:45:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks [long]

- --============_-1288568419==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:38:10 -0700, Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>>They were abandoned because they weren't reliable.  Even without
>>the Hindenburg and the Akron (and everyone know that if you
>>used helium you didn't have that problem) the problem was that
>>everytime bad weather hit you would loose a few.

>And they were "unreliable" because they were woefully underpowered for
>their size, due to the power-to-weight ratio of the motors available at the
>time. This would not be such a problem today.

I don't know why they had so many problems with weather.  I
do know that those who do use them today still complain about
weather (especially when trying moor them).

>In fact, the Graf Zeppelin had such a long range that she could fly
>completely around bad weather most of the time, and still arrive on schedule.

Maybe.  The ones at Moffett weren't abandoned bacause of
the Hindenberg, but because of problems with weather.

>"Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas giant,
>world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes on
>later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute
>prohibition the way breakout is.]

>Thus drop tanks will work, as long as they are smaller than the ship
>itself, but jump stations (which are presumably larger than a ship) are an
>invitation to misjump.

Drop tanks are described as working by explosively jettisoning  through the
use of explosive bolts with the ship jumping when the remains of the tanks
are a safe distance from the vessel.  Aside from the issue that if you want
to get something away from you the best thing is not to explode it (you
can't be sure all the pieces will move away) and that, given the high
acceleration of Traveller ships, the best way is for them to move
themselves away, jettisoning a cable is going to be easier than jettisoning
a whole tank.

>Drop tanks are covered on VE2 p. 94-95, under Hardpoints.

These are for vehicles that carry such things in an atmosphere
under gravity.

> The first
>interesting point is  a limit on the size of drop tanks, based (ultimately)
>on the surface area of the vessel and the weight of the tanks.

Which doesn't make sense for a space vessel.  To "carry"
a drop tank it really only has to be able to dock with it
(if you believe it would have to do even that).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
- --============_-1288568419==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:38:10 -0700, Christopher Thrash <<thrash@io.com>

>>They were abandoned because they weren't reliable.  Even without

>>the Hindenburg and the Akron (and everyone know that if you

>>used helium you didn't have that problem) the problem was that

>>everytime bad weather hit you would loose a few.


>And they were "unreliable" because they were woefully underpowered
for

>their size, due to the power-to-weight ratio of the motors available
at the

>time. This would not be such a problem today.


I don't know why they had so many problems with weather.  I

do know that those who do use them today still complain about

weather (especially when trying moor them).


>In fact, the Graf Zeppelin had such a long range that she could fly

>completely around bad weather most of the time, and still arrive on
schedule.


Maybe.  The ones at Moffett weren't abandoned bacause of

the Hindenberg, but because of problems with weather.


>"Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body (star, gas
giant,

>world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than itself." [He goes
on

>later to discuss misjumps from inside 100D, so it's not an absolute

>prohibition the way breakout is.]


>Thus drop tanks will work, as long as they are smaller than the ship

>itself, but jump stations (which are presumably larger than a ship)
are an

>invitation to misjump.


Drop tanks are described as working by
<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>explosively jettisoning  through the
use of explosive bolts with the ship jumping when the remains of the
tanks are a safe distance from the vessel.</fontfamily>  Aside from the
issue that if you want to get something away from you the best thing is
not to explode it (you can't be sure all the pieces will move away) and
that, given the high acceleration of Traveller ships, the best way is
for them to move themselves away, jettisoning a cable is going to be
easier than jettisoning a whole tank.  


>Drop tanks are covered on VE2 p. 94-95, under Hardpoints.


These are for vehicles that carry such things in an atmosphere

under gravity.


> The first

>interesting point is  a limit on the size of drop tanks, based
(ultimately)

>on the surface area of the vessel and the weight of the tanks.


Which doesn't make sense for a space vessel.  To "carry"

a drop tank it really only has to be able to dock with it

(if you believe it would have to do even that).

<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>______________________________

summers@alum.mit.edu

(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)</fontfamily>

- --============_-1288568419==_ma============--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #416
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 417



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)
Re: Truth Machines
T4 Gunsmith v1.20
Re: MedShip or MedStation concepts
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Jump Limits
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: 10/100 Diameters
Re: Jump Limits
SJ Games update
Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:45:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re : The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:21:48 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Ob Traveller:  What sound does contra-grav make, if any?  I've always
>assumed that it's more or less silent, but have no basis for that
>assumption.

"Everyone knows" that a starship give off a whine when hovering
and kicks up dust when it lands....
:-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:00:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Truth Machines

DGP has Stress Detectors in Traveller's Digest # 19 (page 47)

They are small boxes (2.5 Liters at TL 10 & 1.5 L at TL 14) which can 
effectively detect lies.  The TL 10 and the more reliable TL 12 version 
require hocking the subject up to skin electrodes, but ranged TL 12 and 
TL 14 versions exist, which are likely very similar to Blade Runner 
Voitcomp units (or however those things are spelled).

Df 		TL Range
Formidable	10 skin contact
Difficult	12 skin contact
Formidable	12 ranged
Difficult	14 ranged

Skill: Int, Interrogation 0.25 sec (but a number of "registration" 
questions are necessary to set a baseline.

Subject with Streetwise and Interrogation can use either skill as a 
negative modifier to such tests.

Clearly these things are useful, but far from fool-proof.  They are
completely non-psionic in operation.  I would guess the the Answerin (a TL
15 minor race near Vland [B584A85-F]) may have purely mental/psionic units
since they have developed "a portable device which detects anxiety, by
analyzing thoughts and body functions.  The Imperium considers this device
"to close to psionic practices" and prohibits its export.  The Answerin
use it because they consider fear a disease, but it would likely also make
an excellent truth machine. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:05:10 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: T4 Gunsmith v1.20

I am pleased to announce that I've now got my FFS small arms spreadsheet
to a stage where I think its usable. The spreadsheet is excel 5.0 format and
allows the design of either CPR or Gauss small arms according to FFS2
rules. It can be found on the weapons page of my traveller site.

  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/weapons/weapons.htm

I hope that people find it useful. I'm planning to add High Energy and Laser
small arms in the future, but I hope people find it useful as is. You might
also like the TL 5 .45" rotary SMG.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:03:08 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: MedShip or MedStation concepts

>But see We All Died At Breakaway Station (I've forgotten the author's
>name),

Richard C. Meredith. One of my favourite SF stories.

>A .pulp novel from the 1950s or '60s in which a big hospital ship
>pretends to be a battleship, and, with its two small escorts, charges an
>incoming enemy battle fleet and stalls their advance on Breakaway
>Station long enough for repairs to be made to allow a subspace or
>hyperspace or whatever it was transmission of intelligence information
>back to earth.
>
>(The escorts were the Iwo Jima and the Pharsalus, as I recall, but I
>can't remember the name of the hospital ship.

The Rudolph Cragstone.

>The captain of the hospital ship was Absalom Bracer.

Actualy, Bracer was an Admiral and his command was on  the Iwo Jima. Zoe
Medawar was captain of the Cragstone, which died early in the combat.

  He'd been the captain of a cruiser
>or something and had lost his legs in a battle, so he'd been stuck into
>this tracked vehicle contraption that took care of life support and gave
>him mobility -- somewhere between Captain Pike in The Menagerie and the
>Lost in Space Robot.  The enemy was the Jillies, an alien race best
>remembered for its members' habit of removing their stomachs after
>digesting food and throwing them into a communal pile until needed
>again.)

It's also fun because the story is told from the viewpoint of the "AI"
controlling the ship, really an  ex-human brain wired to the shp,  who has
access to fulll "tapes" of what the participamts thought and felt.

It's classic military SF, and exactly the sort of thing that the best
Traveller games bring out.
Here's a sample from the climax of the book :

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:01:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

In mail you write:

> Anthony Jackson writes:
> "100d probably _isn't_ directly gravity based; if you assume 
> it is mass-based, 100D only works if one assumes tidal 
> force, not gravity.  In the case of tidal force, it works 
> out to a tidal force of about 1.6 x 10^-9 newtons/kilogram/
> meter."
>
>         I'm afraid that I don't follow this (I'm no physicist).
>         Why can't it be gravity-based if there is a critical
>         acceleration due to gravity that must be avoided?

It's like this, if it's based on acceleration, then the 100 diameter
limit doesn't work. That is, the value of acceleration for the standard
size & density Traveller planets varies by too much.

You see, for a uniform density (assumed for "standard" planets), the
mass of the planet varies as the *cube* of the diameter. But the
acceleration varies according to the inverse square of the distance. If
you figure the distance in diameters, the mis-match gets *worse*.

But if you figure "tidal force" (which is the rate at which
acceleration *changes* with distance) then you get a perfect match. For
bodies of uniform density, the tidal force at a given number of
*diameters* is the same. 

>         Once again, I'm no physicist, but I though that the
>         force due to gravity depends only on the mass of each
>         object and the distance between their centers of mass.
>         Thus, the mass of the planet is what counts, and a
>         planet wither lower density (like a gas giant), with
>         the mass of a smaller earth-like planet, would have a 
>         smaller jump limit.

But the *diameter* of a body depends on both the mass *and* on the
density. The lower the density, the bigger the diameter.

That is, a sphere of ice that weighs 1 kilo will be a *lot* bigger than
a sphere of iron that also weighs 1 kilo. And that's because ice is
much less dense than iron.

So since the jump limit is based on *diameters*, density has to be
considered. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:10:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

In mail you write:

> I wrote:
>
>>Basically, to go with Canon you have to work with rate of change of gravity
>>intensity, rather than absolute intensity.
>
> This of course is rubbish, what was I thinking :(
>
> Jump mechanics must work off distance and have little or no relation to mass 
> to stick with canon distances.

Actually, if you sit down and do some calculations, you'll find that
this is wrong. 

First thing, the "distance" is not fixed, but in terms of planetary
*diameter*. Therefore, the limit must depend on *something* that varies
with the *size* of the planet. 

The default Traveller planet, be it size 1 or size A has the same
density as Earth. So, since they have uniform density, it turns out
that their mass depends on their diameter.

Size	dia	mass
- ----	----	-------
1	1/7	(1/7)^3
2	2/7	(2/7)^3	
3	3/7	(3/7)^3
4	4/7	(4/7)^3
5	5/7	(6/7)^3
6	6/7	(6/7)^3	
7	1	1
8	8/7	(8/7)^3
9	9/7	(9/7)^3
A	10/7	(10/7)^3

So the mass goes up as the cube of the diameter. But we need something
that goes up *linearly* with diameter.

Acceleration due to gravity goes as mass (thus 3rd power), but also
*drops* as the square root of distance (1/2 power). Thus acceleration
varies as the 3/2 power of diameter of a fixed density body. So that's
no good.

The rate at which acceleration changes (aka tidal force, aka gravity
gradient, aka curvature of space) varies as the *third* root of
distance. and directly as mass. So that gives a variance of 3/3 or 1
with respect to diameter of a fixed density body. That matches. 

>> 4.5E12 D     minimum mass black hole (6km diameter - 3 solar masses) 
>
> I meant to say theoretical minimum stellar corpse black hole. 
> Smaller black holes are theoretically possible of course.

Fine. The point is, that *is* a minimum diameter stellar corpse type
black hole. So, if jump limit depends solely on diameter, then the jump
limit for this black hole is 600 km. And at that distance tidal forces
would rip any solid object into individual atoms. 

If jump limits depend on mass (and thus on cuvature of space) the jump
limit for this black hole would be the same as for any 3 solar mass
star. Which is something over an AU.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:41:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> At 08:02 PM 4/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be 
> better
>>> to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only 
> to
>>> fire it's energy weapons.
>>
>>Except that from the viewpoint of a space fighter, you are "next to"
>>that feature, not "behind" it. 
>>
>
> Only if the fighter  come into the atmosphere directly overhead.  Then it's
> a case of who shoots first and truest.  With any angle there will be blind
> spots and the likely hood of 0 angle is near 0.

No. 

*Please* stop and visualize the situation. If necessary, draw a
diagram. 

Assuming no overhang, you've at best got a vertical cliff next to you.
More likely you have a slope at 30 to 60 degrees inclination. Let's
assume you are hiding "behind" a mountain 4 km tall (about 13 thousand
feet). And with a 60 degree slope on the side you are on. Call that a
2-1 slope (2 up for every 1 over). 

So at 50km altitude, I can be 25 km away from you and see you past the
mountain. 25 km ain't "directly overhead". 

Now consider that the average slope on tall natural features is more
like 1-2. Which means that you could be seen from 100km away by a space
fighter at 50 km altitude.

And then add in the fact that your aircraft can't get too close to
slopes. That gives *more* seperation. 

This is an unavoidable consequence of the terrain features being so
much *smaller* than the operational altitude of the space fighter. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:53:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: max accel

In mail you write:

> At 08:13 PM 4/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> Ouch!  Good point.  But I just thought of something.  What about a Star 
> Wars
>>> Death Star super weapon built into the planet's moon.  A weapon so 
> powerful
>>> that one shot was one kill even on a dreadnaught.
>>
>>That just came up on RASFS. Consider the effects of trying to turn the
>>"moon" quickly....
>>
>>a=4*pi^2*r/t^2
>>a = acceleration (meters/sec^2)
>>r = radius (meters)
>>t = period of rotation
>>
>>For the Moon r=1738000. Let's say you are willing to wait 10 minutes
>>(worst case) to be able to aim at something. That makes t=20 min = 1200
>>sec.
>>
>>a = 4*pi^2 * 1738000/1200^2
>>a = 47.6
>>
>>So you'll have an acceleration of close to 5 gees at the surface. Oops!
>>
>>If we restrict turning rate to the point where the acceleration is
>>only 1/6th g, then it'll take 2.8 *hours* to swing 180 degrees. 
>>
>>I think we can dodge that pretty easily.
>>
>
> Why would you need to turn the moon?  Turn the weapon or divert the beam
> with a wave guide.  Or us a meson gun and shoot though any part of the moon
> you need to.

And just *what* are you going to use for diverting this beam? True,
first surface mirrors for lasers can handle more power than the surface
of a ship can, simply because they can be kept far smoother. Even so,
you'll hit a limit *long* before you reach the power levels of a weapon
so big that it *has* to be built into something the size of Luna. 

Particle beams are *worse, because any field that will deflect the beam
defocuses it to a greater or lesser extent.

And since you seem unaware of the fact, I'll just point out that a
meson gun has to be pointed at the target. They can fire *thru* things,
but they can't fire around corners.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:01:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

In mail you write:

> BTW, if you're looking over the ABC story on flat-panel
> speakers, also select the last story in the Technology
> section entitled "Fuel Cells Break Through".
>
> It posts details and diagrams of a British Columbia's
> firm's development of the first commercially viable fuel
> cell car engine. Nissan and Honda have already ordered
> some. It uses natural air and methanol to produce 
> electrical power with the only byproduct being pure, 
> drinkable water. BC's transit minister drank some of the
> engine exhaust.

Actually, I'll bet it produces CO2 also. But yes, many fuel cells
produce water as a byproduct. And it's usually quite drinkable.

BTW, one detail the John W. Campbell pointed out back in the 60s.
Barring some major breaktrough, electric cars will not be able to spare
the power to run electrical heaters, and they won't produce enough
"waste heat" to drive a normal heater (or air conditioner for that
matter). 

So electric cars will have heaters and air-conditioners driven by a
heat source such as kerosene or propane!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:07:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

In mail you write:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but take a hydrocarbon, add an O2 (ignore the N)
> and you get CO2 and H2O.  Incomplete combustion yields CO's, NO's and in
> really bad cases straight C's.  With methanol (CH3OH), add some O2 (as
> above), you get H2O, CO2, and some NO's when you're hammering the pedal.
> With straight H2, you still get your H2O, and some NO's, but no CO2 - but I
> dunno if I want to have a rotary tugging my car around... :)

You only get NOx emissions if the reaction takes place at high temps.
It's not a matter of "incomplete" combustion. And in internal
combustion engines, the high pressure in the cylinders aids NOx
formation. 

External combustion engines (steam engines) will produce some NOx
emissions due to high flame temps. But the better the burner design,
the lower the emissons. And, of course, they don't get much in the
"incomplete combustion" department.

Fuell cells react things at room temp, and the oxygen usually has to
pass thru some sort of dielectric. It gets passed thru that as
individual oxygen atoms, and the nitrogen gets left behind, so the only
way to get NOx emmisions is from arcing of the brushes in the electric
motors. Use brushless motors and even that won't happen.

> I guess an upside to methanol would be being able to run your car on
> windscreen washer fluid.

Sorry, but there's nowhere *near* enough methanol in that. 

> OTOH, what about a water cycle engine?  We've all seen the blurbs, waited
> patiently for the product, and given up in favour of fuel cells, I guess.

Water cycle? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:14:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

In mail you write:

>>Hurry up with them fusion engines!  where can I order a 150kw fusion plant
>>for my telstar???
>
> Check with the "infinite energy" people (aka the Cold Fusion crowd).
> Apparently they have all the energy we need, now, ready to go, and its just
> the "Hot Fusion" scientific establishement conspiring to prevent them from
> getting the funding they need to develop the stuff (no, really!).
>
> For hot fusion, you don't wanna wait that long.  Its probably still 20-40
> years from being workable in the big form, never mind something that fits
> under the hood.

Well, Inertial Electrostatic Confinement looks pretty good. Alas, it
looks like it'll take a 5 meter diameter unit to achieve useful power
output. That pretty much kills it for use in cars, trucks, and
aircraft. Ships should do fine.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:27:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

In mail you write:

> OK, I'll go with a coreward orientation vector for each system.
>
> Next question...
>  
> I assumed that the orientation of each system's "flattened disk" set of
> orbit trajectories be completely random. Therefore, the coreward
> orientation vector should be random (have its own seed). And I've
> assumed up to a 15 degree angle above or below the disk for each
> individual orbit. Reasonable?

The average inclination of the "flattened disk" would be the ecliptic
plane of the system. I forget the angle that our ecliptic is inclined
to the plane of the galaxy.

Actually, a proper system design system should give orbital
inclinations with respect to the local ecliptic. And even 15 degrees
would be fairly unusual. 

BTW, it takes more than just an angle to specify the orientation of an
orbit with trespect to the ecliptic or that of the ecliptic with
respect to the galactic plane. 

As I recall, to completely specify an orbit takes:

1. semi-major axis (size of orbit)
2. eccentrity (shape of orbit)
3. inclination of orbit (angle of orbital plane with respect to
   reference plane)
4. longitude of the ascending node (angle from zero reference to the
   point where planet's orbit intersects the reference plane while
   moving "up")
5. Argument of the perihelion (angle between perihelion and zero
   reference?)
6. time of perhelion passage

Basicly #3 gives the angle of the orbital plane. #4 pins down the
orientation of the orbital plane. #5 pins down which way the orbit is
oriented inside the orbital plane. And #6 pins down where in the orbit
the planet is. 

And what we need is a program that can take the above and give the
(polar or spherical) co-ordinates of a planet at a given time.

It'd also help to have it able to convert between orbital co-ordinates
and xyz position and velocity vectors (ie at this time, it's at
position xyz, with velocities of XYZ along the xyz axes).

After all, ships are easiest to deal with in XYZ terms. I'd only
convert to orbital when there's a long period of coasting.

> Shadow wrote:
>
>>Given those two *fixed* figures, you just figure out how many *days* it
>>has been since the zero time, divide that by the year, and covert the
>>remainder to the fraction of an orbit it is around its orbit at the
>>current time. 
>>
>>Me, I plan on "cheating" and just assuming that all planets were at the
>>zero position at Julian Day #0 (noon, GMT, 1 Jan 4713 BC). But any
>>software for world design/system storage should have a field for "time
>>of perihelion passage" as part of the orbital elements. 
>
> My past attempt was even weaker than your cheat. It BASICly (pun
> intended) asked you for the masses in each orbit, assumed circular
> orbits and single stars and spat out positions and velocities for
> whatever time you asked for.
>
> There was no data storage. It required a lot of command line data input.
> But it worked.
>
> My intended redesign would include 
>    User specified coordinate systems i.e. planetary or solar reference
>    Automatic G-Burn calculations for transfer orbits
>    Automatic G-Burn calculations planet to orbit / orbit to planet
>       (and how many type of orbits I want to automatically calculate)
>    Storing everything in arrays and writing a reference file format
>    Full 3-d visualization (this is the show stopper for me, numbers I
> can deal with)
>    
> Shadow again:
>
>>It'd probably be best to write it "generically" with the ability to
>>convert things like planet info into the stats for various game
>>systems.
>
> I would welcome any suggestions for a robust generic system
> specification. Prferably one that didn't require hex to base ten lookups
> all over the place. 
>
> Before I starting working in the software industry, I would run
> willy-nilly writing software and adding features. Now I try to get a set
> of requirements and designs before I start coding. At least before I had
> some software.

My suggestions are to use real world figures, and convert to/from game
system figures in a seperate module.

So stars would be specified by mass and spectral class. That gives size
and other details by simple lookups. 

Planets would be by mass, size, and composition, both of planet & of
atmosphere. Ditto for satellites.

We also need to store orbital elements, and other such things. 

One thing that occured to me the other night is that it might be useful
to have an entry for "primary" for everything in a "catalog" or
"atlas". So Luna would list Terra, Terra would list Sol, Sol would list
"Milky Way Galaxy", the Milky Way would list the "local group", the
local group would list (I think) the Virgo cluster, which would list
the proper supercluster, which would list "the universe" :-)

This would at least get rid of the artificial distinctions between
planets, moons, and asteroids.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:28:01 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: 10/100 Diameters

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>And what we need is a program that can take the above and give the
>(polar or spherical) co-ordinates of a planet at a given time.

Aaahhh, the field of celestial mechanics. This is actually a straight forward
procedure. I have some fortran 90 code that does this if your interested.

>It'd also help to have it able to convert between orbital co-ordinates
>and xyz position and velocity vectors (ie at this time, it's at
>position xyz, with velocities of XYZ along the xyz axes).

I'm not sure by what you mean by orbital coordinates. What you need
is the orbital elements and the desired time. From this you can calculate both
the position and velocity (its called generating an empherides).

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:04:53 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

> Jump mechanics must work off distance and have little or no relation to mass
> to stick with canon distances.

Basically, every starship ever to jump in Traveller was WAY inside the
really big and massive object known as the milky way. If you cannot jump
within 10 diameters of the milky way then nobody can jump PERIOD.

As Traveller canon seem to indicate that ships DO jump from time to time
the 10 x diameter, 100 x diameter rules must be wrong. ;-)


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 06:00:52 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: SJ Games update

From the Daily Illuminator <http://www.sjgames.com/ill/>:

"April 8, 1999: July Releases!

"Alien Races 2 for GURPS Traveller
"The second book in the GURPS Traveller Alien Races series, Alien Races 2:
Aslan and Kkree addresses the biology, home worlds, culture, and society
of the fierce Aslan, the centaurian Kkree, and two minor species. It
details their historical involvement with the Imperium, from first contact
to present, and presents racial templates, rules for playing alien
characters, and examples of unique technologies and ship designs.

"144 pages. Suggested retail price $20.95. Stock number 6607. ISBN
1-55634-392-2"

The authors are Andy Slack and David Thomas.

"GURPS Space, Third Edition
"A classic becomes classier in this updating of the definitive guide to
science-fiction roleplaying. Previous editions of GURPS Space offered a
comprehensive set of tools to design your own starfaring campaigns, from
space opera to hard science with any stop in between. Substantially revised
and expanded, the Third Edition will: Upgrade the spaceship design and
space combat systems; ensure that recent, popular science-fiction cinema
and television settings will be easily simulated; and update the rules to
conform with changes since the last edition brought about by GURPS
Compendium I, Traveller, Ultra-Tech 2, and Vehicles.

"144 pages. Suggested retail price $21.95. Stock number 6005. ISBN
1-55634-390-6"

David Pulver is doing the revision, which mainly consists of changing the
ship construction and space combat rules to match GURPS Traveller. 

It looks as if GURPS Traveller: Starports, by John M. Ford, has slipped to
September.


Also, the initial errata for Far Trader have just been posted:

<http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/traveller-far-trader.html>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 04:28:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium (was: OT: Why do they call it the Aardvark?)

In mail you write:

>> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
>> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
>
> Does your sig file have anything to do with Emperor Norton's proposal
> for the Bay Bridge?  Fnord.

Hmmmm....

I just flashed on a *lovely* bit of background for a world. Have it be
medium poulation, fairly "frontier", but trying to get a reputation for
being civilized (like San Francisco 100 years back). 

Add prominent local citizen who has gone harmlessly nuts. He thinks
he's the Emperor of the planet. And everyone goes along with the gag.

Now have it being approached to join the Imperium. And the locals
decide to appoint the "Emperor" as the official planetary government.

:-)

I want to see the players when they realize that the "Emperor" of the
planet is a loon. Especially if they need to negotiate a favor. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #417
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 418



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?
DGP Task System
Re: max accel
Re: max accel
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: IG stuff...
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
re: max accel
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Traveller PBeM being considered
Re: The sound of the Imperium
re: max accel
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
re: max accel
Re: Jump Limits
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Jump Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 07:45:59 -0500
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?

>Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:29:38 -0700
>From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
>Subject: Re: Can we drop the Drop Tanks?
>
>Almost makes you wish we had Clif back, doesn't it?
>
>AAAACCKKK!!!!!  What the HELL am I saying?!?!?!?  If I do that again,
>somebody shoot me!
>
>Jesse
>:)
bzzzzzzzzzzzttttttttttttttttt   BOOM~  (Sound of plasma gun chargin & firing)

Ooopppsss.  You said again didn't you.   Sorry. <g>

						Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 08:07:37 -0500
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: DGP Task System

Does anyone own the copy of Traveller's Digest that contained the
original article explaining the task system? If so, I would like to get
a copy of that article. Please contact me off list. 

Thanks,

William
- -- 
Live without fear; your Creator loves you       
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good	    
road and may God's blessing be with you always. 
St. Claire

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:41:46 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

>> Why would you need to turn the moon?  Turn the weapon or divert the beam
>> with a wave guide.  Or us a meson gun and shoot though any part of the moon
>> you need to.
>
>And just *what* are you going to use for diverting this beam? True,
>first surface mirrors for lasers can handle more power than the surface
>of a ship can, simply because they can be kept far smoother. Even so,
>you'll hit a limit *long* before you reach the power levels of a weapon
>so big that it *has* to be built into something the size of Luna. 
>
>Particle beams are *worse, because any field that will deflect the beam
>defocuses it to a greater or lesser extent.
>
>And since you seem unaware of the fact, I'll just point out that a
>meson gun has to be pointed at the target. They can fire *thru* things,
>but they can't fire around corners.
>

Boy did you miss my meaning.  I ment either mount a meson weapon on gimbals
and shoot though whatever part of the moon is in the way or use wave guides.
You'd use wave guides to tansmit a powerful but unfocused beam (or several
AKA star wars) to the 'head' pointed thawd the target and there focus it
with a final gravidic lens.  Or have more than one weapon powered by one
reacter and use the weapon that point at your target.  There are meny ways
to skin this cat.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:41:56 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: max accel

At 01:41 AM 4/8/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 08:02 PM 4/5/99 PST, you wrote:
>>>In mail you write:
>>>
>>>> Why would the fighter need to climb with energy weapons?  It would be 
>> better
>>>> to stay low and slow and fight sub style rising from behind terrain only 
>> to
>>>> fire it's energy weapons.
>>>
>>>Except that from the viewpoint of a space fighter, you are "next to"
>>>that feature, not "behind" it. 
>>>
>>
>> Only if the fighter  come into the atmosphere directly overhead.  Then it's
>> a case of who shoots first and truest.  With any angle there will be blind
>> spots and the likely hood of 0 angle is near 0.
>
>No. 
>
>*Please* stop and visualize the situation. If necessary, draw a
>diagram. 
>
>Assuming no overhang, you've at best got a vertical cliff next to you.
>More likely you have a slope at 30 to 60 degrees inclination. Let's
>assume you are hiding "behind" a mountain 4 km tall (about 13 thousand
>feet). And with a 60 degree slope on the side you are on. Call that a
>2-1 slope (2 up for every 1 over). 
>
>So at 50km altitude, I can be 25 km away from you and see you past the
>mountain. 25 km ain't "directly overhead". 
>

Close enough.  You are still in the single digits or arc.  Less than .001%
of the posible search area.  Not to good.  Also unless the space fighter's
radar is instantanious it's likely to miss the fighter due to the time
required to actively search with a resolution in meters a surface in the
millions of meters with lots of iregularities that had to be classified
friend, foe, or terrain.

>Now consider that the average slope on tall natural features is more
>like 1-2. Which means that you could be seen from 100km away by a space
>fighter at 50 km altitude.
>
>And then add in the fact that your aircraft can't get too close to
>slopes. That gives *more* seperation. 
>

No, the air craft could land on the slope.  GTL12 CG system.  Or IN the
slope in a prepared position cutting veiwing arc aven more.

>This is an unavoidable consequence of the terrain features being so
>much *smaller* than the operational altitude of the space fighter. 
>

You've also forgoten things like ground clutter, apperture, viewing angle,
resolution, scan time.  The grounded fighter will see the space fighter with
it's remove passive sensor array placed at the top to the mountain to give
the widest posible veiwing angle and attack it with remote placed weapons as
it crosses the horizon.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:41:56 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

THIS POST WILL TOTALLY RUIN THE MOVIE FOR YOU.


     |
    V


     |
    V
















TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> oh. btw.  Spoilers, don't read if you haven't and want to see the Matrix.
> Sorry, haven't mentioned it before.
>
> > > Yeah.  I'd buy that.  Especially for the "normal" people in the matrix.
> > > Otherwise, it would be run w/ your normal skills, etc, but the possiblity
> of
> > > bending rules.  Noone was capable of breaking the rules except Neo, even
> the
> > > Agents only bended rules, but noone besides Neo and the Agents could move
> > > that fast, etc.
> >
> > They said, and I guess we must accept, that some rules can be bent,
> > and some can be broken.  (IMHO, if they can be bent, they can all be
> > broken).
>
> I dont' remember it being said that rules could be broken (except possibly by
> "the One").

When Morpheus and Neo are doing the kung fu. Said by Morpheus.
Something like "The difference is knowing which rules can be bent . . .
and which can be broken."


> > What Morpheus and gang can do is use their Willpower to
> > enforce their will, i.e., belief or desire, upon the Matrix.  Where Neo
>
> Yeah.  Willpower sounds good.  So maybe normal skill use, etc but every now
> and then "willpower" to always grant outstanding success or something?  I
> intend to actually use something like this for an upcoming adventure...
>
> How would you do the "downloaded" skills?  Should people w/ Neural Jacks be
> treated like they have implant computers from FF&S?  Maybe download a skill
> at a time and it then fades?  Get too many skill/levels that way and you have
> a psychotic episode?   Otherwise, everyone's gonna want one and start
> cramming on skills if there's no downside or drawbacks.  I'm not out for a
> fiat "game balance" rule though.... never did like them much.

I thought about that when Trinity had to d/l helicopter pilot skills.  Since they
don't download all the programs as a matter of course, there must be some
limit or hazard to having all programs.  I don't know about implant computers
but it makes sense for there to be a limit to the amount of skill programs that
a person could keep active at the same time.  I assumed that Trinity lost
something
when she received the helicopter data.



> > can eventually, make new rules, or totally disregard existing ones, e.g.,
> > his little feat at the end.  They should have been doing that kind of stuff
> > from the beginning.  Heck, why don't they just make the people they
>
> Nah.  I like it the way they did it.  Course, I never try to analyze a movie
> till afterwards, if everything initially sounds viable.  I had a good
> impression of the Matrix, though, so that probably kept me from picking it
> apart.  ;-)
>
> Plus, Neo didn't believe he was "the One" until the end and couldn't see the
> actual workings of the matrix, nor just destroy the agents (and/or remove
> them from the program).

Aw, come on.  You bought that head fake?  ;-)
His name is "Neo", and anagram for "One".  And "Neo" means "new."
Those aren't accidents.  Names of characters in movies are never by
accident.


> > take out of the Matrix beleive that they're Superman.  Bullets no problem.
> > No reason to even go that far.  Just hack a newborn out of the Matrix,
> > raise it in that construct, give it superpowers, let it loose in the Matrix.
> > Boom.  Or perhaps easier, use religion to take advantage of the belief
> > of those in the Matrix, so as to give them power over it.
>
> I don't think believing your'e superman or a new prophet or something would
> work. You'd still be subject to the rules. They can be "bent" but not broken
> (except by someone like "the One" (w/ comp. empathy or something).

As I said before, they said some can be broken.  But I still maintain that if
you believe the rules don't apply to you, they won't.  But even then, Superman
believes in gravity.  Under a yellow sun, it just doesn't have much effect on him.

> You
> wouldn't be ressurecting people since their [real] bodies were unplugged and
> liquified and fed to teh others.

In the context of the film, death of the body only occurs with death of the mind
in the Matrix.  So as long as you can believe you're alive within the context of
the Matrix, you can stay alive and generate power for the placeholder aliens.
So, take a guy who can preform 'miracles' within the Matrix, have him convince
people in the Matrix that they cannot die, or if they do, there is life after
death.

[Not trying to get started with a religious discussion here, its just that since
belief (i.e., faith) can be a powerful force within the Matrix - there has been
some religious analysis of the film though].


>  The agents would still kick some ass too
> since they can majorly fudge the rules (w/ that speed punching, etc).  Neo
> alone, i think, could break the rules.

As agents of the system, they can only function within the context of the
rules, though they have some kind of 'superuser' authority.  They did say that
some rules could be broken, but you're right to point out that Neo is the only
one who did break any.  (Except for the Agents' ability to takeover a human in
the Matrix) I think the only rules he broke involved stopping the bullets and then

diving in the one agent.  Everything else involves bending, i.e, doing something
faster, stronger, etc.

I'm going to go see it again.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:51:20 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: The Matrix
>
> >The movie is quite enjoyable, especially for its production values, special
> >effects
> >and action.  But the plot is pure Philip K. Dick.  And not just one work of
> >Dick's
> >but an idea you can see in a great deal of his work.
>
> To be fair though, you can say this about many books, movies and even
> roleplaying games (and especially Traveller).

Sure, but there is one short story in particular that I'm thinking of.
If Dick was alive, I'd offer to be his lawyer in the copyright
infringement suit.

> Where would Terminator have been without Ellison's Outer Limits episode
> soldier? Large chunks of the film were lifted directly from the TV show.
> Where would the film version of Blade Runner have been without the play
> Rossum's Universal Robots?

Never heard or saw those, but at least Blade Runner says upfront that its
based on Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"

> In books, Haldeman's Forever War wouldn't have
> existed without Starship Troopers. Back to movies, the beloved sci-fi series
> Star Wars is simply a retooling of the peasant hero myths of many countries,
> with a hefty helping of Akira Kurusawa (sp?) tossed in for comic relief.
> Messiah legends were around long before Herbert wrote the Dune series... and
> then there are of course roleplaying games, and the one we discuss on this
> mailing list in particular.

Yes. I read Campbell's "Hero Of A Thousand Faces", too.

> >Don't look too close toward
> >realistic consequences of the dramatic foundations.  Just enjoy the moving
> >pictures,
> >IMHO.
>
> Not sure what you mean here exactly. I'm assuming that you mean that there's
> no real underlying logic to the film and it's simply eye candy. I would
> disagree, not simply because I liked the film but also because there was.

There is an underliying logic, but it contains significant inconsistencies.
Sure, few movies don't.  And they made a laudable attempt to give the
appearance of consistency, which works a little bit on a superficial level.

>
> >Well, maybe.  But I think it has more to do with Willpower, at least
> >generally. I would say that Neo develops Computer Empathy later,
> >or becomes aware of his ability in it.
>
> ***potential spoilers ahead***
>
> My own two cents on this one:
>
> I wouldn't say Willpower exactly, it's something a little less definable.
> There's also a good deal of mechanics going on behind the scenes as well.
> After all, why do you think that they had Operators sitting behind the
> scenes at consoles?

To pull them out of the Matrix.  The operators didn't assist them in
the actual task of performing an action or bending the rules.

> The way that I'd personally do a game version of the concept:

[snip]

I'm sure Matrix: The RPG is in development already.

> There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
> great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
> trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.

Didn't know that.  I assume in part 2 we will learn more about the aliens.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 06:57:27 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: IG stuff...

> "144 pages. Suggested retail price $20.95. Stock number 6607. ISBN
> 1-55634-392-2"
>
> The authors are Andy Slack and David Thomas.

Ohhhh...  Do we get free coupon's for Wendy's burgers with the book?

<Homer Simpson>
ohhhhhh buuurrgggguuuurrrssss...  (drool)  8^)
</Homer Simpson>

DS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:57:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

steve daniels wrote:

> THIS POST WILL TOTALLY RUIN THE MOVIE FOR YOU.
>
>      |
>     V
>
>      |
>     V
> As agents of the system, they can only function within the context of the
> rules, though they have some kind of 'superuser' authority.  They did say that
> some rules could be broken, but you're right to point out that Neo is the only
> one who did break any.  (Except for the Agents' ability to takeover a human in
> the Matrix) I think the only rules he broke involved stopping the bullets and then
>
> diving in the one agent.  Everything else involves bending, i.e, doing something
> faster, stronger, etc.

Well, he did sorta come back to life... that's generally regarded as "breaking" a
rule.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:01:11 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You've also forgoten things like ground clutter, apperture, viewing angle,
resolution, scan time.  The grounded fighter will see the space fighter with
it's remove passive sensor array placed at the top to the mountain to give
the widest posible veiwing angle and attack it with remote placed weapons as
it crosses the horizon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Note that at this point, the ground fighter is irrelevant. The space fighter
is now attacking a ground-based, dispersed air defense network - a very
different scenario than we started with.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:02:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

> > There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
> > great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
> > trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.
>
> Didn't know that.  I assume in part 2 we will learn more about the aliens.

Aliens!?  There weren't any aliens... you mean the robots?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 11:15:57 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

At 10:02 AM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> > There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
>> > great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
>> > trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.
>>
>> Didn't know that.  I assume in part 2 we will learn more about the aliens.
>
>Aliens!?  There weren't any aliens... you mean the robots?
>

        Sure there were!  They were hiding behind the robots!  <weg>

        --Michel

        
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:39:26 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Traveller PBeM being considered

I am considering running a Classic Traveller/GURPS Traveller campaign on the 
Internet where players control networks of characters to gleem information 
and direct military/commercial units. Play will focus on the Entropic Worlds 
in the Vilis subsector of the Spinward Marches in 1120. Contact me at 
Scififan56@aol.com if interested or have questions. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:23:16 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: The sound of the Imperium

>>>>
> Ob Traveller:  What sound does contra-grav make, if any?  I've
always
> assumed that it's more or less silent, but have no basis for that
> assumption.  If it is silent, what do military powers do to assert
their
> presence with civilians without actually shooting?

IIRC, it just nullifies, so probably no sound there.  I'd have a sound
(in an 
atmosphere) for HEPlaR and even T-plates, though... ;-)  What should
they 
sound like?


Gary
>>>>
HEPlaR is essentially a rocket engine.  Not exactly, but close enough
for sound bite comparisons.  I would run a HEPlaR engine IMTU as a
rocket type noise.
T-plates are based on gravitic technology, so I have imagined them as
pretty silent.  On the other hand, the burbly noise of the Jetsons
machines appeals to me somewhat.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:54:28 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 10:01 AM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You've also forgoten things like ground clutter, apperture, viewing angle,
>resolution, scan time.  The grounded fighter will see the space fighter with
>it's remove passive sensor array placed at the top to the mountain to give
>the widest posible veiwing angle and attack it with remote placed weapons as
>it crosses the horizon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Note that at this point, the ground fighter is irrelevant. The space fighter
>is now attacking a ground-based, dispersed air defense network - a very
>different scenario than we started with.
>

Not at all.  The air fighter carried the systems to set up this condition.
Remote sensors and standoff weapons are common concepts today.  They are
likely to be common in the future as well.  I am basocly discribeing a
comando attack craft with some of the abilities of a helocopter, tank, and
plane.  I never said the planes crew or designer were fools or that they
would fight a stand up toe to toe fight either.  I was supposing a system
designed to make an invader pay dearly for the world he is taking.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

Leonard Erickson writes:
>> BTW, one detail the John W. Campbell pointed out back in the 60s.
> Barring some major breaktrough, electric cars will not be able to spare
> the power to run electrical heaters, and they won't produce enough
> "waste heat" to drive a normal heater (or air conditioner for that
> matter). 

Hm...ideally, you could probably create a dramatically more efficient heater by
using a heat pump (a reversed air conditioning unit).  I assume there's some
technical reason this isn't normally practical, since it could allow a 5-10x
increase in the efficiency of a heater (with the side effect of extremely
_cold_ air being produced on the outside).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:12:46 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Note that at this point, the ground fighter is irrelevant. The space fighter
>is now attacking a ground-based, dispersed air defense network - a very
>different scenario than we started with.
>

Not at all.  The air fighter carried the systems to set up this condition.
Remote sensors and standoff weapons are common concepts today.  They are likely to be common in the future as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why not run the remote sensors and standoff weapons from an
underground command bunker? 

I'm not saying remote sensors and standoff weapons are bad ideas. I'm 
pointing out that by grounding the plane and using them, you're 
acknowledging the ineffectiveness of the airplane itself, at least as a
combat air vehicle. 

Now, as a grav tank or mobile command center, we may be getting 
somewhere.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:46:00 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

>>>>
> Jump mechanics must work off distance and have little or no relation
to mass
> to stick with canon distances.

Basically, every starship ever to jump in Traveller was WAY inside the
really big and massive object known as the milky way. If you cannot
jump
within 10 diameters of the milky way then nobody can jump PERIOD.

As Traveller canon seem to indicate that ships DO jump from time to
time
the 10 x diameter, 100 x diameter rules must be wrong. ;-)


/Anders Backman
>>>>
What object called the milky way?  There is no such thing.  There is a
grouping of individual stars which orbit a common center.  At that
common center is (apparently) a very large black hole.  This grouping of
stars is labeled the milky way.  I don't need to get 100 diameters away
from the milky way since there is no such thing except as a label on
some pieces of paper.  As long as I am 100d away from the closest of
these stars I am at least 100d away from all of them.
Now, there may well be a certain amount of "background" gravitation for
the milky way galaxy, which would diminish radically at 100d away from
the major grouping.  In fact, this may be the way to get higher Jump
numbers.

<wild Jump theory>
Suppose for argument that Jump limits (the 100d limit dicated in every
Traveller ruleset so far) are connected with the tidal forces that have
been discussed previously [this is the best explanation I have seen so
far IMHO].  Each and every object in the universe deforms space-time
near it.  Two objects fairly near each other will deform space-time more
(and more complexly) than a single object.  Thus, in the area of Known
Space, there is a fairly constant "background" curvature of space-time. 
This curvature will decrease in rifts, but will increase along mains,
but not very much either way (since we are dealing with the aggragate
gravitation of a galaxy as well as individual stars).  This background
curvature is (adventure idea) just beginning to be theorized about in
relation to Jump during the early 1100s.  Thus this will not affect Jump
in CT, MT, or TNE (except perhaps in the Regency), T4, or GT (perhaps
just the first glimmerings).
In this case, the background curvature will prohibit access to Jump
spaces higher than 6 except under extraordinary circumstances (misJump
anyone?).  If you can get your ship to an area with a decreased
background curvature, higher Jump spaces are available routinely instead
of just as freak occurances.  Additionally, the destination of the Jump
is important as well as the origin.  Therefore, to access higher Jump
spaces, your background curvature would need to be lower and the place
you are Jumping to needs a lower curvature as well.  This is why this
theory hasn't been evident before, because people are usually trying to
get TO someplace specific.
So, to make use of this theory...
One needs to have a lower background curvature at both beginning and
ending points of the Jump, as well as along the whole (straight-line)
path of the Jump as it corresponds to real space.  So, if one were to
have a suitable Jump-7 drive designed and built, you could still only
just it as a J-6 drive along the mains.  But, if you got out into the
middle of the Great Rift, and then were to Jump ALONG the Rift (rather
than across it), one could achieve Jump 7.  Out on the distant edges of
the galaxy, or between the spiral arms, you could achieve Jump 8, 9, 10,
and perhaps higher.  To get the really phenomenal Jump distances (Jump
36 for example) on a consistant basis, you would need to get out between
galaxies.
</wild Jump theory>

So, any comments, flames, nuclear bombs?
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:05:34 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

Joe Pettit wrote:

> > > There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
> > > great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
> > > trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.
> >
> > Didn't know that.  I assume in part 2 we will learn more about the aliens.
>
> Aliens!?  There weren't any aliens... you mean the robots?

Doh.  My mistake.  I forgot.  They sure look Alien inspired.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:18:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Joseph Kimball wrote:

> >>>>
> > Jump mechanics must work off distance and have little or no relation
> to mass
> > to stick with canon distances.
>
> Basically, every starship ever to jump in Traveller was WAY inside the
> really big and massive object known as the milky way. If you cannot
> jump
> within 10 diameters of the milky way then nobody can jump PERIOD.
>
> As Traveller canon seem to indicate that ships DO jump from time to
> time
> the 10 x diameter, 100 x diameter rules must be wrong. ;-)

the 10/100 rules apply to a UNIFORM DENSITY BODY.  The Milky Way and star
systems are FAR from uniformly distributed.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #418
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 419



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: max accel
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Jump Limits
re:Truth Machines
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: autofire/rapid fire
re:Truth Machines
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: Jump Limits
re: max accel
Pushing the Limit  (was Jump Limits)
Re: Jump Limits
re: Pushing the Limits
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts
Re: Jump Limits
Re: The Matrix
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:22:08 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: max accel

At 12:12 PM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Note that at this point, the ground fighter is irrelevant. The space fighter
>>is now attacking a ground-based, dispersed air defense network - a very
>>different scenario than we started with.
>>
>
>Not at all.  The air fighter carried the systems to set up this condition.
>Remote sensors and standoff weapons are common concepts today.  They are
likely to be common in the future as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Why not run the remote sensors and standoff weapons from an
>underground command bunker? 
>
>I'm not saying remote sensors and standoff weapons are bad ideas. I'm 
>pointing out that by grounding the plane and using them, you're 
>acknowledging the ineffectiveness of the airplane itself, at least as a
>combat air vehicle. 
>
>Now, as a grav tank or mobile command center, we may be getting 
>somewhere.
>

No, not at all.  I was increasing the survivability of the design.  If the
air figther can kill a space fighter 'for free' without directly exposing
itself to return fire that means each such fighter will get two or more
enemy craft.  A very good use of manpower.  One such fighter with a dozen
prepared positions could cost the invaders a great deal in manpower and
material.  It is only one posible design for a anti space invader craft.

As for why I did not use a bunker, a bunker can not run away to fighter
again tomarrow.  Once located it is toasted by dead fall ordinence.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:27:18 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

> <wild Jump theory>

[Clipped]
I think that one issue that needs to be addressed is why jump-2 is
significantly more advanced than jump-1.  And why jump 3+ is more advanced
than earlier versions.  Since misjumps allow up to 36 parsec jumps with even
a jump-1 vessel, it can't be a physical boundary.  That pushes me in the
direction of a control issue, i.e. advances in technology allow for more and
more precise alignments allowing for jump "locks" at further distances.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:32:28 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

At 01:18 PM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> As Traveller canon seem to indicate that ships DO jump from time to
>> time
>> the 10 x diameter, 100 x diameter rules must be wrong. ;-)
>
>the 10/100 rules apply to a UNIFORM DENSITY BODY.  The Milky Way and star
>systems are FAR from uniformly distributed.
>
        Hi, Joesph!
        The *Earth* is far from uniformly distributed...  its just more
tightly lumped together....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:40:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Truth Machines

"John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> wrote:
>TL 14 versions exist, which are likely very similar to Blade Runner
>Voitcomp units (or however those things are spelled).

Voigt-Kampf Test if I remember the book correctly.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:52:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

> From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
> 
> Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> > > > There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
> > > > great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
> > > > trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.
> > >
> > > Didn't know that.  I assume in part 2 we will learn more about the aliens.
> >
> > Aliens!?  There weren't any aliens... you mean the robots?
> 
> Doh.  My mistake.  I forgot.  They sure look Alien inspired.

And here I was, thinking you were making a reference to the 
original release of Highlander 2: The Sickening.  :)

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:01:01 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

David,

I agree with your statements. That's how I would handle the situation, but
MT rules seem to read as though autofire targets must be alternate targets.

New related question:

MT Imperial Encyclopedia: "A person under slow drug can make twice as many
actions or move twice as far as  normal."

Is it possible to conduct "rapid-fire" and reload in the same round with
slow drug?

I didn't think you could, because it takes a "normal" round to empty the
weapon. Just because the person firing the weapon is taking his action twice
as fast, doesn't mean the gun can too. I figure slow drug would allow
multiple semi-automatic shots. For example, if the guass gun is set to 10
rounds/pull (3 autofire targets) then the character can make 2 attacks.
(resulting in 20 rounds fired) This would give time to reload before the
round was over. But, if rapid-fire is conducted, then the character is
essentially "holding down the trigger" for the entire combat round (which
wouldn't make any difference if the character was on slow drug or not)

Does a weapon that conducts "rapid-fire" fire its weapon for the entire
round? Does it for more than half the round? I figure it would have to fire
for half the round or less to be able to fire and reload in the same round
(with slow drug)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson  wrote:
> So in answer to Shawn, I would say you are nearly right - instead of
> attacking 4 targets 3 times each, you can attack 3 targets 4 times each.
> With the gauss rifle having one primary target and three additional
> autofire targets per autofire attack, in one round you can shoot at the
> same target 12 times!!!
>
> The only drawbacks are that you empty your weapon, and that the Difficulty
> goes up by one - even at Short range, every shot becomes Difficult.
> However, I know this guy with Combat Rifleman-6... ;-)
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:02:05 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re:Truth Machines

At 06:40 PM 4/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>"John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> wrote:
>>TL 14 versions exist, which are likely very similar to Blade Runner
>>Voitcomp units (or however those things are spelled).
>
>Voigt-Kampf Test if I remember the book correctly.
>
>Dom
>

        Correct.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:31:20 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

At 11:01 AM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>David,
>
>I agree with your statements. That's how I would handle the situation, but
>MT rules seem to read as though autofire targets must be alternate targets.
>
>New related question:
>
>MT Imperial Encyclopedia: "A person under slow drug can make twice as many
>actions or move twice as far as  normal."
>
>Is it possible to conduct "rapid-fire" and reload in the same round with
>slow drug?
>

        In the RPG "Cyberpunk 2020", this is a *common* problem because of
the way the initiative system works when using cybernetically and drug
boosted reflexes.  Here is how *I* take care of it....

        Things with physical limitations on rate of use (cyclics on
automatic weapons) are restricted to there maximum as the maximum for the
duration of the round...  so, if its a max ROF 30 weapon, then it is 30/1
action, 30/ 2 actions, 30/ 5 actions, whatever.  Things with no limitations
(fists, light blades & melee weapons) can be used as many times as you have
actions.
        So, in MCPG, a typical combat monster's 4-action initative might
look like:

                Action 1 -- Fires ten-round burst at first target
                Action 2 -- Switches target
                Action 3 -- Fires ten-round vurst at second target
                Action 4 -- Butt-strokes HTH-range third target

        So, if there are no rules in MT to cover it, I'd say that if they
have effectively fired for a full intiative round (the entire mag) there
won't be enough "real time" to do a mag change...  however, working within
the constraints of the the ROF, they should be able to fire mutliple
targeted bursts, to reflect thier improved reflexes and reactions.

        JMHO, IYTU YMMV.  YAAA.  BYE.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:37:03 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

> At 01:18 PM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >> As Traveller canon seem to indicate that ships DO jump from time to
> >> time
> >> the 10 x diameter, 100 x diameter rules must be wrong. ;-)
> >
> >the 10/100 rules apply to a UNIFORM DENSITY BODY.  The Milky Way and star
> >systems are FAR from uniformly distributed.
> >
>         Hi, Joesph!
>         The *Earth* is far from uniformly distributed...  its just more
> tightly lumped together....

No, the Earth is not uniformly distributed, the Milky Way is *far* from
uniformly distributed.

But, just to add something to this discussion, there is an ambient level of
stray molecules out there which have an infinitesimally small gravitational
effect.  They probably have less of an impact than your own vessel, but the
point is that you can't  get an Absolute Zero gravity condition.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:39:18 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: max accel

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for why I did not use a bunker, a bunker can not run away to fighter
again tomarrow.  Once located it is toasted by dead fall ordinence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A bunker can be made far harder to find than a grounded aircraft and
will probably cost less. Once the fighter is located, you won't need
deadfall ordinance to kill it. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 14:01:39 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Pushing the Limit  (was Jump Limits)

On 04/08/99 at 01:27 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:

>I think that one issue that needs to be addressed is why jump-2 is
>significantly more advanced than jump-1.  And why jump 3+ is more
>advanced than earlier versions.  Since misjumps allow up to 36 parsec
>jumps with even a jump-1 vessel, it can't be a physical boundary. 
>That pushes me in the direction of a control issue, i.e. advances in
>technology allow for more and more precise alignments allowing for
>jump "locks" at further distances.

Yes, that's the direction MTU went.  The drive, energy expended and
displacement mass for jumps aren't the problem, IMTU it's the
sensors and controls that are the limiting factor.

When the astrogator looks into his "tank" he is using specialized
sensors to "see" masses at multi-parsec ranges.  He has to be able
to precisely locate them and by adjusting controls lock onto the
right one with that "gravitic hook" I mentioned yesterday.  At
higher TL's (and I break TL's down into technology subgroups) better
sensors and controls can be built allowing longer jumps to be made.

Additionally, *very* skillful astrogators *can* exceed the stated
limits of the technology (succeed at more difficult tasks) and make
longer jumps than rated for their jump system.  So, if they have the
fuel and energy available, the desperate PC's can attempt a two
parsec jump in their Jump-1 rated ship.  Note they have to be pretty
desperate to try it, and they better have an *ace* astrogator
aboard. <g>

IAC, combining these two ideas allows me to have half steps in jump
technology.  A culture can increase their jump tech by 1, 1+, 2,
2+...etc.  At the + level the sensor/control technology for longer
jumps isn't quite there yet, but with ace astrogators ships can be
more easily pushed to longer jumps.  This creates situations where
having a very skillful astrogator aboard give a ship a significant
advantage over one with a with a less skillful one.

IMTU, I might rate a ship's jump system at Jump-2+ instead of just
Jump-2.  This means that it takes an Average task to make a Jump-2,
but is capable of a Jump-3 with success on a Formidable task.  This
would be opposed to a Jump-2 rated ship needing success on an
Average task for 2 and a Staggering task for 3.  Note the 2 parsec
jump didn't get easier, just the jump beyond the system's rated
capability.

Now the downside.  <g> Failure to make a task where the astrogator
pushes the jump system past its limits results in a misjump.  A
normal failure means the ship makes a Jump-0 (usually stays right
where it tried to jump from), and the ship just wastes a week and
its fuel.  OTOH, a critical failure means we go to the misjump
tables where *bad* things happen.

This is MTU, of course, but I think it adds a lot of flavor. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:06:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"You see, for a uniform density (assumed for "standard" planets),
the mass of the planet varies as the *cube* of the diameter."

	I had always handwaved that density changed enough in 
	smaller planets to nullify this, but obviously I didn't
	think about it enough.

<snipped>
(I have re-inserted some of the post leading up)
John Buston writes:
"Domonic Mooney wrote:
<snipped>
>Is a star less dense than a planet, and does this make the 
limit closer?

Much Further..."

	Once again, I'm no physicist, but I though that the
	force due to gravity depends only on the mass of each
	object and the distance between their centers of mass.
	Thus, the mass of the planet is what counts, and a
	planet wither lower density (like a gas giant), with
	the mass of a smaller earth-like planet, would have a 
	smaller jump limit.

But the *diameter* of a body depends on both the mass *and* on 
the density. The lower the density, the bigger the diameter.

That is, a sphere of ice that weighs 1 kilo will be a *lot* 
bigger than a sphere of iron that also weighs 1 kilo. And that's 
because ice is much less dense than iron.

So since the jump limit is based on *diameters*, density has to 
be considered."

	I understand that, but doesn't that also mean that the
	jump limit for low-density objects like gas giants and
	most stars would be less than 100D? (cf. Dom's comment 
	above)

<great explanation of jump limit snipped>

	Snipped and saved, thanks muchly!

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:14:23 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Pushing the Limits

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, that's the direction MTU went.  The drive, energy expended and
displacement mass for jumps aren't the problem, IMTU it's the
sensors and controls that are the limiting factor.
<snip>
Additionally, *very* skillful astrogators *can* exceed the stated
limits of the technology (succeed at more difficult tasks) and make
longer jumps than rated for their jump system.  So, if they have the
fuel and energy available, the desperate PC's can attempt a two
parsec jump in their Jump-1 rated ship.  Note they have to be pretty
desperate to try it, and they better have an *ace* astrogator
aboard. <g>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I pop a TL15 sensor/control suite into my TL9, Jump-1 warship (which
has lots of power on board), how far can I jump? Will I only be limited
by fuel supply?

Walt Smith

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:23:27 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

At 09:57 AM 4/8/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>steve daniels wrote:
>
>> THIS POST WILL TOTALLY RUIN THE MOVIE FOR YOU.
>>
>>      |
>>     V
>>
>>      |
>>     V
>> As agents of the system, they can only function within the context of the
>> rules, though they have some kind of 'superuser' authority.  They did say 
>that
>> some rules could be broken, but you're right to point out that Neo is the 
>only
>> one who did break any.  (Except for the Agents' ability to takeover a 
>human in
>> the Matrix) I think the only rules he broke involved stopping the bullets 
>and then
>>
>> diving in the one agent.  Everything else involves bending, i.e, doing 
>something
>> faster, stronger, etc.
>
>Well, he did sorta come back to life... that's generally regarded as 
>"breaking" a
>rule.
>
Don't forget the "Law of Gravity" that he broke in the final sequence after
talking to the "matrix" on the phone.

Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:22:49
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Re : MedShip or MedStation concepts

> From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

> In my experience, there are only a few basic 'medical plots'.
> i. Disaster scenes (individual or mass casualties, be they from
> 2. Mystery plots (Why did the patient present like that? Are there
> 3. Romance (often highly inappropriate, and in most hospital settings,

Tangentially related... but what the heck...

Some years ago the French magazine Casus Belli (reccomended if you can read
French) had a Star Wars scenario in what was, basically the Rebellion
version of M*A*S*H. 

I've never played it, but it seemed very good. Among the various plot ideas
proposed:

- - Cut through Red tape and circumvent "official" channels to get a rare
medical compound in time to save someone.
- - Foil the attempts to close down the facility (or just tighten up
discipline in it!)
- - Bust a drug ring in the base. This is a favour to a shady character which
fears that drugs would cause a full 
  investigation by Rebellion officials.
- - The usual chase/be chased stuff with TIE Fighters and other Imperial
vehicles.



__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:20:54 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Alternately, the jump drive could require a specific amount of 'clear space'
rather than a lack of mere mass. (Gearhead alert)...space is springy and
pulls the opposite direction to gravity (and, yes, that does mean you can
have areas where gravity does not pull you to the surface of a mass body -
or rather, where space pulls you away more than gravity pulls you to the
surface). Look into 'New Scientist' for last week for more details. Perhaps
the jump drive needs the space, and the 100 planetary diameters is intended
to be a 'rule of thumb' rather than a fixed physical constant.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Cc: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 07 April 1999 17:26
Subject: Re: Jump Limits


>Anders Backman writes:
>>
>> My post was not based on the original authors work (in fact I hadn't seen
>> it when I posted) but the most important thing is that my system is NOT
>> BASED ON GRAVITY and that my system falls back to the original 100d rules
>> whenever the planet has a density of 1.0.
>
>Note that 100d limit based on tidal flux has also been done a number of
times,
>though it may have not been around as long.  However, if you're going to
put
>something in the FAQ, use tidal flux, not gravity, because at least tidal
flux
>resembles the existing rules.
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:21:30 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Matrix

> I wouldn't say Willpower exactly, it's something a little less definable.
> There's also a good deal of mechanics going on behind the scenes as well.
> After all, why do you think that they had Operators sitting behind the
> scenes at consoles?

I thought more for an advantage to "cheat" and be an overwatch kind of thing. 
 "Uh oh, what's going on?" when the agents institute a change (deja vu) or 
something.  And of course to give u any skills you might need.  :-)

> There'd be an advantage called Matrix Synergy or something similar. It would
> be similar to Psionics in CT (if you don't have it, you don't have it). This
> would allow pretty much complete control, with certain limitations, over
> one's representation in the Matrix. This would be far too powerful an
> advantage to give to a character in a game, in my opinion.

I'd use that, but think it sounds enough like Computer Empathy (at least in 
effect), that'll just use that.

> To simulate the kinds of things that Morpheus and Trinity were able to do
> there'd be certain little perks that the characters could learn over time.
> Jumping and running rules might be changed slightly, for example. Their
> number of attacks per round might be upped slightly here and there. All of
> this would require periods of intense training.

I'll probably end up using my idea of having willpower to automatically grant 
outstanding success (or maybe another level "super success" or something, w/ 
enhanced effects w/ willpower at a more difficult level, ala the skyscraper 
jumping).

> On the other hand, skills could be learned extremely quickly. Skills would
> become something of a non-issue with a few limitations. The skill might not
> exist in the team's "skill pool" (what, you need to play a sitar? Tough
> luck!).

I like that idea.  The computer on the ship or facility or whatever has such 
skills in storage and, subject to memory capacity, can d/l that out.  It'd be 
helpful to know if Trinity still knows how to fly that helicopter...  I'm 
probably leaning on too many and have a psychotic episode.

> Skills that rely entirely on rote memorization could be learned in an
> instant and on the fly, while skills that require more than one discipline

Or like 0 level in a skill?

> (such as martial arts) might take a little longer. Of course this would be
> modified by the skill of the party's Operator. There is a limitation on the
> ability to learn skills. Neo was able to learn many different sorts of
> martial arts over a long period of time while it was clearly indicated that
> nobody else had been able to spend as much time having this stuff fed into
> their heads.

Yeah.  Neo's could either be considered a special case... or just have 
computer empathy (or Matrix Synergy, whatever) to be able to instantly alter 
rules around a possessing character.

> Further, a handwave could be made that team Operators have to be humans who
> have never been hooked into the Matrix. Perhaps in the real world the former
> inhabitants of the Matrix have only a fraction of the dexterity and fine
> motor skills that their virtual versions have?

I don't think the Operators had to never have been hooked up.  Tank and... 
the big guy, whatever his name was (Hoser?) just *couldn't* enter the Matrix 
because they were natural born humans, didn't have all the jacks (are the arm 
and leg ones necessary?  or just the head one?).

> There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there. Really
> great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a planned
> trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.

Really?  Where did you hear that?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:27:33 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

I agree. The character could make 2 normal attacks or 1 rapid-fire attack or
1 normal attack and 1 reload. (Besides, making 2 attacks is more effective
then rapid-fire anyways when you consider normal attacks hit more often than
rapid-fire attacks and the extra skill necessary to make rapid-fire useful
would make each normal hit more damaging)

My idea of rapid-fire has been that the person is more conserned with
shooting then aiming. (Hence, the increased difficulty) Here's an
interesting question then: Would the person conducting rapid-fire have more
time to aim? Essetially getting all three (12 including auto-fire) attacks
from rapid-fire but not having the difficulty penalty? What about a
decreased penalty, say -2.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> Michel R. Vaillancourt wrote:
>         So, if there are no rules in MT to cover it, I'd say that if they
> have effectively fired for a full intiative round (the entire mag) there
> won't be enough "real time" to do a mag change...  however, working within
> the constraints of the the ROF, they should be able to fire mutliple
> targeted bursts, to reflect thier improved reflexes and reactions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:21:27 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

> > I dont' remember it being said that rules could be broken (except 
possibly by
> > "the One").
> 
> When Morpheus and Neo are doing the kung fu. Said by Morpheus.
> Something like "The difference is knowing which rules can be bent . . .
> and which can be broken."

I thought he was referring to what *Neo* could do, and not just anyone.  You 
may be 
right, though.

> > How would you do the "downloaded" skills?  Should people w/ Neural Jacks 
be
> > treated like they have implant computers from FF&S?  Maybe download a 
skill
> > at a time and it then fades?  Get too many skill/levels that way and you 
have
> > a psychotic episode?   Otherwise, everyone's gonna want one and start
> > cramming on skills if there's no downside or drawbacks.  I'm not out for a
> > fiat "game balance" rule though.... never did like them much.
> 
> I thought about that when Trinity had to d/l helicopter pilot skills.  
Since they
> don't download all the programs as a matter of course, there must be some
> limit or hazard to having all programs.  I don't know about implant 
computers
> but it makes sense for there to be a limit to the amount of skill programs 
that
> a person could keep active at the same time.  I assumed that Trinity lost
> something when she received the helicopter data.

And of course, a momentary moment of vulnerability.  It'd be interesting to 
know if Trinity still knows how to fly the helocopter or not...

> > Plus, Neo didn't believe he was "the One" until the end and couldn't see 
the
> > actual workings of the matrix, nor just destroy the agents (and/or remove
> > them from the program).
> 
> Aw, come on.  You bought that head fake?  ;-)
> His name is "Neo", and anagram for "One".  And "Neo" means "new."

I immediately recognized as meaning new, but didn't catch the anagram part. 

> > I don't think believing your'e superman or a new prophet or something 
would
> > work. You'd still be subject to the rules. They can be "bent" but not 
broken
> > (except by someone like "the One" (w/ comp. empathy or something).
> 
> As I said before, they said some can be broken.  But I still maintain that 
if
> you believe the rules don't apply to you, they won't.  But even then, 
Superman
> believes in gravity.  Under a yellow sun, it just doesn't have much effect 
on him.

Oh.  I just saw that different, i guess, due to my interpretation on what 
Morpheus
told Neo.  I don't think we see any "breaks" by anyone except Neo, which we'd 
justify by being Matrix Synergy or Computer Empathy or whatever...

> > You
> > wouldn't be ressurecting people since their [real] bodies were unplugged 
and
> > liquified and fed to teh others.
> 
> In the context of the film, death of the body only occurs with death of the 
mind
> in the Matrix.  So as long as you can believe you're alive within the 
context of
> the Matrix, you can stay alive and generate power for the placeholder 
aliens.

How?  I mean, the real mind and body is still being used.  Remember when 
Cipher unplugs the others, they died in the Matrix.  I wonder if the Agents 
would've really reinstalled him into the Matrix anyways or if they were just 
telling him what he wanted to hear.  It's very difficult to see how he could 
ensure their cooperation (should've said to reinstall them first and leave 
the ship).

> > So, take a guy who can preform 'miracles' within the Matrix, have him 
convince
> > people in the Matrix that they cannot die, or if they do, there is life 
after
> > death.
> 
> [Not trying to get started with a religious discussion here, its just that 
since
> belief (i.e., faith) can be a powerful force within the Matrix - there has 
been
> some religious analysis of the film though].

There has? Or do u mean this discussion?

> >  The agents would still kick some ass too
> > since they can majorly fudge the rules (w/ that speed punching, etc).  Neo
> > alone, i think, could break the rules.
> 
> As agents of the system, they can only function within the context of the
> rules, though they have some kind of 'superuser' authority.  They did say 
that
> some rules could be broken, but you're right to point out that Neo is the 
only
> one who did break any.  (Except for the Agents' ability to takeover a human 
in
> the Matrix) I think the only rules he broke involved stopping the bullets 
and then
> diving in the one agent.  Everything else involves bending, i.e, doing 
something
> faster, stronger, etc.

And him coming back from the dead.  The speed movement used to dodge bullets 
also was restricted to Neo and the Agents (the latter apparently can't 
actually stop them, though I suppose they could do Electronic Combat (Vampire 
Fleets) w/ each other).

> I'm going to go see it again.

Already have, but stuff already starting to fade. It comes out on tape or dvd 
and it's mine. ;-)


Gary

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #419
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 420



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage) 
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: Pushing the Limit  (was Jump Limits)
Re: Pushing the Limit  (was Jump Limits)
Re: Jump Limits 
Re: Garbage
Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Jump Limits (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:21:34 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage) 

Now I don't know if you're dropping the other point by point we're having 
(which is fine, or maybe i've missed it) or if you've killfiled me (which, 
frankly, is also fine),
but I want to address some of your points below.

> >Certainly. I agree completely. You'd expect to see jump-6 drop liners
> >jumping between Rhylanor and Mora (via Heroni), for instance. But how many
> >places have you seen described in adventures and other writeups where it is
> >actually ODD that they aren't mentioned?
> 
> Are you saying that it could be that there are
> jump 6 drop ships travelling the main routes and it just wasn't
> worth mentioning?  That doesn't work for me at all.

In the context of YTU?  No, it doesn't, if you've detailed such things.  But 
isn't
your argument that drop tanks destroy the setting and/or are unviable and
unthought of technology?  You and Hans (and I) aren't arguing the same point, 
it seems.

> Even if it doesn't directly affect the PC, the description
> of the backgrond is something that I want to be consistent.

It's incomplete if you base it on previously published material and isn't 
inconsistent at all (if anything, there seems to be some dispute about the 
true merits and flaws of drop tanks).  If you've gone ahead and drawn your 
own conclusions (for YTU), that's fine w/ me.  I just take exception to when 
you make your claims all encompassing.

You still do not get Jump 6 ships, but ships that can do multiple jumps (w/ 
the associated lengthening of the voyage durations).  There's a difference 
there (beyond book 2, that is).

> You also have problem with military situations.  Aside from
> issues of how far you can jump into enemy space, etc. the
> classic a fleet jumping in and having to engage or refuel
> before it can jump out becomes obsolete.  If you have
> drop tanks you don't have to jump in with empty tanks.
> But this is not a trivial part of the background.

That is an absurd military assumption, though.  The most reasonable thing to 
do
(if it's possible, and it's not w/ FFS2 T-plates IIRC, in which case you 
should jump out as far as possible and bring tankers), you jump to the oort 
cloud, refuel, get a measure on defending forces via c-lag, and then 
microjump in (keeping a significant reserve to jump out, if necessary).  
Fleets only duel when they have to (especially w/ reactionless drives).

For big military ships (like I always do w/ the Hivers), there will be extra 
tankage 
if the designer is worth his salt (IMTU, the Federation Navy, even in the New 
Era, maintains a standard of Jump 4 drives w/ J5 tankage).

> What is more, I don't find treating what the PC are doing
> in a vacuum to be statisfying.  I want their actions to

Me neither.   We have at least *one* thing, in common.  :-)

> exist in the context of the setting.  If the setting has
> drop tanks, then it should reflect that as reasonably
> as possible.  They should be affecting the timeline which
> _will_ affect my PCs.

Sure.  But the rapidity of the change, and thus it's effects on the PCs via 
the background, is very debatable (I'd say you've been refuted, and not just 
by me,
but i'm sure you'd argue the point).  And just because you havent' featured 
such in your adventures, that means the changes aren't happening?  Have you 
actually tried to see what drop tanks would actually do?  I'm not being 
accusatory there, actually asking.

> >The only adventure I recall where either Oberlindes or GS hired any PCs,
> >Oberlindes did it because they had a ship.
> 
> Right, and the context of why Oberlindes hires them should fit
> the background.  If they are being driven out of business
> by drop tanks, then I expect that to be reflected in what my
> PC see.

Which ties into the above.  There's nothing to indicate their being driven 
out of business.  If anything, they should be in the drop tank business 
themselves.
This is if there hasn't been a backlash against drop tanks by 1120 (when i'm 
assuming YTC is), as was mentioned earlier.

Would assuming every megacorp and shipping industry already is running drop 
tank operations (possibly limited to bigger ships, for whatever reason) be 
beyond what you're willing to do?  At least concieve of it?


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> Don't forget the "Law of Gravity" that he broke in the final sequence after
> talking to the "matrix" on the phone.

Aw, but you see, I never studied Law.   :)

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:36:24 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

I wrote:
> My idea of rapid-fire has been that the person is more conserned with
> shooting then aiming. (Hence, the increased difficulty) Here's an
> interesting question then: Would the person conducting rapid-fire have
more
> time to aim? Essetially getting all three (12 including auto-fire) attacks
> from rapid-fire but not having the difficulty penalty? What about a
> decreased penalty, say -2.

Of course, I meant when the character is on slow drug for my question.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:40:29 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

At 12:27 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>My idea of rapid-fire has been that the person is more conserned with
>shooting then aiming. (Hence, the increased difficulty) Here's an
>interesting question then: Would the person conducting rapid-fire have more
>time to aim? Essetially getting all three (12 including auto-fire) attacks
>from rapid-fire but not having the difficulty penalty? What about a
>decreased penalty, say -2.
>
>Shawn Campbell

        Hi again, Shawn....
        The only real reason to "rapid fire" a weapon is to "hose down" an
area to keep some schlep from sticking his head up, or to ensure what you
are firing at is "dead-Dead-DEAD-*DEAD*!"....  In the first case, basically
you are letting the recoil dance the muzzle around the beaten-zone and
really that 12 attacks all ought to hit seperate targets;  if you are
visible, you are attacked.  If you are not, you are safe.  So if there are
three targets, 9 attacks rip up the landscape and dramatically break the
windows, the other three *might* hit something...  just roll "to hit" with
no skill level on the part of the firer and taken into account armor effects.
        In the second case, by definition, you *are* aiming, and treat that
attack normally.

        As before, JMHO, etc....

        --Michel        

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:48:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Pushing the Limit  (was Jump Limits)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 04/08/99 at 01:27 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:
>
> >I think that one issue that needs to be addressed is why jump-2 is
> >significantly more advanced than jump-1.  And why jump 3+ is more
> >advanced than earlier versions.  Since misjumps allow up to 36 parsec
> >jumps with even a jump-1 vessel, it can't be a physical boundary.
> >That pushes me in the direction of a control issue, i.e. advances in
> >technology allow for more and more precise alignments allowing for
> >jump "locks" at further distances.
>
> Yes, that's the direction MTU went.  The drive, energy expended and
> displacement mass for jumps aren't the problem, IMTU it's the
> sensors and controls that are the limiting factor.
>
> When the astrogator looks into his "tank" he is using specialized
> sensors to "see" masses at multi-parsec ranges.  He has to be able
> to precisely locate them and by adjusting controls lock onto the
> right one with that "gravitic hook" I mentioned yesterday.  At
> higher TL's (and I break TL's down into technology subgroups) better
> sensors and controls can be built allowing longer jumps to be made.
>
> Additionally, *very* skillful astrogators *can* exceed the stated
> limits of the technology (succeed at more difficult tasks) and make
> longer jumps than rated for their jump system.  So, if they have the
> fuel and energy available, the desperate PC's can attempt a two
> parsec jump in their Jump-1 rated ship.  Note they have to be pretty
> desperate to try it, and they better have an *ace* astrogator
> aboard. <g>

[Clip]
Well, now the question lies in the drive sizes.  A jump 1 vessel takes 2%
drive (I think) but a jump 2 takes 3%.  I can see the initial 1% as
baseline ship preparation gear, like the jump grid and anything to
maintain the jump field integrity.  The rest of the drive is directly
proportional to distance.  Maybe the rest of the drive is either energy
generation or fuel pumping gear.  But again, its screwy because the 36 pc
misjump invalidates the requirement. grrr...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:17:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Pushing the Limit  (was Jump Limits)

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Joe Pettit wrote:

> [Clip]
> Well, now the question lies in the drive sizes.  A jump 1 vessel takes 2%
> drive (I think) but a jump 2 takes 3%.  I can see the initial 1% as
> baseline ship preparation gear, like the jump grid and anything to
> maintain the jump field integrity.  The rest of the drive is directly
> proportional to distance.  Maybe the rest of the drive is either energy
> generation or fuel pumping gear.  But again, its screwy because the 36 pc
> misjump invalidates the requirement. grrr...

Perhaps much of the extra 1% (going from the Jum-1 to Jump-2 ddrive) is
the weight/volume of dedicated information processing systems to handle
the jump-targeting for the added distance. Maybe even extra (dedicated)
sensors, imaging, gravitic detection instruments, etc.

Brannon

PS: I really like the idea of the characters being able to use their
expertise to exceed the specs of the equipment. It adds a human element to
the equation ("I need more power, Scottie!")   :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:20:18 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump Limits 

> I think that one issue that needs to be addressed is why jump-2 is
> significantly more advanced than jump-1.  And why jump 3+ is more advanced
> than earlier versions.  Since misjumps allow up to 36 parsec jumps with even
> a jump-1 vessel, it can't be a physical boundary.  That pushes me in the
> direction of a control issue, i.e. advances in technology allow for more and
> more precise alignments allowing for jump "locks" at further distances.

IIRC, the canon explanation is that there are "levels" of jumpspace that can 
entered, so it is a boundary of some kind (physical, energy, something 
else?).  Jumpspace dimensions 1 through 6 can be entered w/ the appropriate 
drive (the higher come out later in TLs).  7-36 are only entered through 
misjumps, as are levels higher than the max drive rating one possesses.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:31:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:04:37 +1200, "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>>It is not "completely" unbelievable.  There is a rule that,
>>in fiction, you get a suspension of disbelief where the
>>audience will accept something that is not possible as
>>possible to set up the premise of the story or settings.

>Yeah, I know about that. The point though is that it really _is_ completely
>unbelievable.

I don't know that I agree.  Traveller has a few things that
you suspend disbelief on, and the rest holds together pretty
well.

>  If you don't think about it and suspend your disbelief, fine.
>But nothing in Traveller stands up to any serious scrutiny, so worrying about
>minor details like the fact that drop tanks aren't as common as you happpen to
>think they should  be, seems a bit frivolous.

I don't think it is that minor or that the issue is that
drop tanks should but a bit more common.

>I think you may have misunderstood what I meant with the Aborigine. I was
>implying that expecting the Aborgine to understand modern NY is the equivalent
>of expecting 20thC  westerners to understand the Imperium ( assuming it
>actually existed ) .

If he was plopped down cold?  Probably.  If he had an explination of
it (like we have of the Traveller setting) I don't think it would
be impossible for him to understand.

>>I've argued this position in the past, I can not tell Hans that
>>I admit that I was wrong :-).  The problem is that; having
>>the choice can be a big deal, you can get a _lot_ of "sort
>>of big shots, and big ships would use this in addition to
>>having jump tankage.

>Not if they wanted to jump they wouldn't !

A bit ship could carry more fuel tanks, or maybe be able
to use them and get a slightly lower jump off.

>I suspect it's more practical, and probably cheaper, to put a better weapon
>and a bigger power plant in than adding large amounts of unneccesary fuel
>tankage and relying on over-driven equipment.

I tried to argue this.  These days I don't think it really can be sustained.

>There's a difference between what is found at Ancient's sites (Black Globes),
>what is researched ( Signal GK) , what is used by the Navy ( Gazelle's), and
>what is used regularly by commercial operators.

Well, the TNS entry says it is being used commercially.  Also,
the difference between the first two and the last two is alot
bigger thant the differnce between the last two.  (Also, they
have issues on how they change the military situation, see
my post on changing the need for high guard situations).

>IRL, we've had "spaceships" for almost forty years now, and there's still only
>a handful of commercial operators

The only think that retards commercial satalite launches is
government subsidies (NASA is getting out of the business and
this has caused a lot of commercial ones to get into it).
As far as manned flight goes, there is no commericial
interest in that.

>and except for the avionics commercial
>airliners are still largely using technology that is older than that.

Because it works.  If new technology offered some big advantage,
it would be used.

>Although
>drop-tanks exist IRL and have done since the end of WWII, still only the
>military uses them.

Unlike Traveller ships, fuel space doesn't take up such large
amounts of space.  Civilian aircraft can build planes with plenty
of range and they don't need to gain every bit of performance that
military jets need.
>
>Maybe drop-tanks really aren't economicallly feasible for commercial use in
>the Imperium.

They are so simple, it is hard to see how that could be.

> The only thing the drop tanks gain you really is the ability for a ship to
>jump further with the same cargo

Actually, you can take a jump-1 ships, make it jump-6 and
still carry something like 30% more cargo.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

What method do people use to determine what system a misjump lands you in?  I
guess the 1d6 d6 parsec jump tells you how far, but it doesn't help much for
what system you actually wind up in.

I was thinking of doing misjump as a random-walk pattern -- roll 1d for each of
distance and direction, 6 times.  Not sure exactly how the average on that
compares to avg for standard misjump, but at least it makes a nice even
pattern, not one which is spread out along certain lines or something.

Comments?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:53:49 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:

TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7

I was wondering if this is in error? I am curious why the higher TL drive
uses more power, weighs more and costs more? Typically in these tables,
higher TL causes less power consumption and less weight.

What would be the advantage of designing a ship with TL 11 maneuver drives,
when the TL 9 drives are lighter, consume less power and cost less?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:57:38 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

Jimmy Simpson wrote:

> Don't forget the "Law of Gravity" that he broke in the final sequence after
> talking to the "matrix" on the phone.

Which is what he should have been doing from Day One, IMHO.

> Jimmy Simpson
>       nimrodd@fastlane.net
>
> "You can get more with a kind word
>      and a 2 x 4,
> than you can with just a kind word."
>                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

The original quote your Sig is based on is

"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun
than you can with a gun alone."
  - Al Capone

I tried once to write a story called "A Gun Alone" based on that.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:59:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> What method do people use to determine what system a misjump lands you in?  I
> guess the 1d6 d6 parsec jump tells you how far, but it doesn't help much for
> what system you actually wind up in.
> 
> I was thinking of doing misjump as a random-walk pattern -- roll 1d for each of
> distance and direction, 6 times.  Not sure exactly how the average on that
> compares to avg for standard misjump, but at least it makes a nice even
> pattern, not one which is spread out along certain lines or something.
> 
> Comments?

That's a lotta dice rolling. IIRC, the rules (probably TNE and CT which
I usually remember best) say roll one d6 for direction, and then 1d6 *
d6 for distance, so it is in a straight line.

In fact, that makes sense, since all other jumps, mis or otherwise are
in a stright line.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:03:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

Shawn Campbell wrote:
> 
> The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:
> 
> TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
> TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7
> 
> I was wondering if this is in error?

I can't find the errata right now, but there IS a reason they call MT
MegaTypo...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:01:29 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Toledo.




- -
V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

www.downport.com 
A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:05:33 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

> > > You
> > > wouldn't be ressurecting people since their [real] bodies were unplugged
> and
> > > liquified and fed to teh others.
> >
> > In the context of the film, death of the body only occurs with death of the
> mind
> > in the Matrix.  So as long as you can believe you're alive within the
> context of
> > the Matrix, you can stay alive and generate power for the placeholder
> aliens.
>
> How?  I mean, the real mind and body is still being used.  Remember when
> Cipher unplugs the others, they died in the Matrix.  I wonder if the Agents
> would've really reinstalled him into the Matrix anyways or if they were just
> telling him what he wanted to hear.  It's very difficult to see how he could
> ensure their cooperation (should've said to reinstall them first and leave
> the ship).

I was talking about the 'unawakened' humans.
For the jacked in, I assumed that pulling the plug with the conscience was
in the Matrix was death for normal physiological reasons, no juice to the
brain or something like that.  There is some inconsistency there though.

Althogh its an interestin parallel to the silver cord ideal in astral travel.

> > > So, take a guy who can preform 'miracles' within the Matrix, have him
> convince
> > > people in the Matrix that they cannot die, or if they do, there is life
> after
> > > death.
> >
> > [Not trying to get started with a religious discussion here, its just that
> since
> > belief (i.e., faith) can be a powerful force within the Matrix - there has
> been
> > some religious analysis of the film though].
>
> There has? Or do u mean this discussion?

Not here.  The characters represent, so its been said:
Neo  = Jesus
Morpheus = John the Baptist
Trinity = Mary Magdalen (That name's not a hint is it?  ;-)
Cipher = Judas Iscariot

> > >  The agents would still kick some ass too
> > > since they can majorly fudge the rules (w/ that speed punching, etc).  Neo
> > > alone, i think, could break the rules.
> >
> > As agents of the system, they can only function within the context of the
> > rules, though they have some kind of 'superuser' authority.  They did say
> that
> > some rules could be broken, but you're right to point out that Neo is the
> only
> > one who did break any.  (Except for the Agents' ability to takeover a human
> in
> > the Matrix) I think the only rules he broke involved stopping the bullets
> and then
> > diving in the one agent.  Everything else involves bending, i.e, doing
> something
> > faster, stronger, etc.
>
> And him coming back from the dead.

He was merely nappin'.   :-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:08:46 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits (long)

>>>> (start of quoted material)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 13:27:18 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

> <wild Jump theory>

[Clipped]
I think that one issue that needs to be addressed is why jump-2 is
significantly more advanced than jump-1.  And why jump 3+ is more
advanced
than earlier versions.  Since misjumps allow up to 36 parsec jumps with
even
a jump-1 vessel, it can't be a physical boundary.  That pushes me in
the
direction of a control issue, i.e. advances in technology allow for
more and
more precise alignments allowing for jump "locks" at further
distances.
>>>> (end of quoted material)
The impllication from comments in various editions of the rules suggest
that Jump-6 is some sort of barrier, and that controlled Jumps are not
possible beyond it at least until Grandfather's TL (and its not clear if
he can do it either).  I don't have my books at work or I would try to
find the quotes.  A vaguely similar situation would be the speed of
sound speed limit in the 30s and early 40s.  [I do mean VAGUELY, so
don't fuss at the details of this relationship too much.]  In the 30s
and 40s, many scientists though that solid materials couldn't go faster
than the speed of sound in the atmosphere (most people weren't worried
about space yet).  They pointed to the fact that as airplanes got close
to the speed of sound, they started shaking violently, and control
surfaces were suddenly not functional.  I know that on the P-38
Lightning they put a sort-of barbell shaped thing on the elevator on the
tail to increase control of the plane when it got very close to the SoS
(as it did when it went into a steep dive).  Relating this to Jump,
perhaps Jump-6 is some kind of natural barrier, in that the technical
understanding of Jump space and the making of machinery to use the
higher Jump spaces makes a sharp jog up at that point.  It is clear that
there is some kind of jog in technical understanding needs to take place
early on as Jump-1 comes at TL9 and Jump-2 doesn't come till TL11. 
Perhaps the understanding to make controlled Jumps only comes at TL20 or
21?

To push the analogy beyond the breaking point (flame-bait anyone?),
lets tentatively match Aerospace technology with Jump drive technology.

Jump-1 might be equivalent to early, powered balloon flight (early
zepplin technology).  It has the ability to get you up off the earth in
a reliable way, but has very limited capabilities beyond that
(especially if you look at really early wood-burning hot-air balloons). 
Related to Jump drives, we have the early models of the Terrans that
would only do Jump-0 (insystem Jumps) and later Jump-1.  We see a very
basic WAG view of Jump space and the technology to make it usable.

Jump-2 might be equivalent to manned kites.  These represent a quantum
jump in understanding of aeorodynamics over balloons, and allow some
real control though still quite at the mercy of the elements.  While the
Terrans can see that the Vilani can do Jump-2, it takes a paradigm shift
to move on to enough understanding of Jump space to allow Jump-2.  The
Vilani didn't have that kind of example to get pushed by, but you
remember it took them a LONG time to finally get the idea that Jump-1
wasn't the end.

Jump-3 might be equivalent to early powered flight.  Very low speed,
but increased ability to go where you want rather than where the
elements take you.  When the Terrans realized that Jump-1 wasn't the
end, and Jump-2 follows once you understand the universe a bit better,
they were able to say "So why can't we do Jump-3?" and set about to
figure it out.  Their increased understanding enabled them to get a Jump
on the Vilani [pun intended] and begin the RoM.

Jump-4 might be equivalent to WW I aircraft.  An order of magnitude
faster than early powered flight, with better understanding of
aerodynamics, and much better equipment to get you up and working at
useful things rather than just sight-seeing.  Jump-4 seems a logical
step after Jump-3, but the understanding of Jump space had to get
better, and technology had to advance to the point of being useful for
these greater differences.  There is a pseudo-barrier at this level
since the biplane and wooden prop technology got stuck in people's minds
and they had to look beyond these to go to greater capabilities.

Jump-5 might be equivalent to aircraft from the 30s and early WW II. 
Much faster and more capable, with longer ranges and more reliability. 
Still some odd ducks in the mix though.  The refinement of ideas that
were present earlier, but finally get meshed and understood in Eureka!
type fasion.  "Oh, putting in rivets that are flush with the skin makes
a significant difference in how fast the plane can go."  "Oh, having
Zuchai crystals with these impurities makes a difference.  And you want
the Lanthanum hull grid to make these kinds of angles and curves going
around airlock and cargo doors so that you get maximum economy of energy
use during Jump."

Jump-6 might be equivalent to the best aircraft of WW II and the late
40s.  Almost at the speed of sound, with most of the bugs worked out. 
Hitting real physical limits on advances though, without changing their
understanding of aerodynamics.  "You know, these new Jump-6 drives are a
marvel.  Truely wonderful.  But you know the current Jump theory says
there ought to be 36 levels of Jump space.  Just think about all those
strange misJumps we hear about sometimes.  I wonder why Jump drives
shiver into their component bolts or disappear in an incredible blast of
light never to be heard of again when you try to set them for Jump-7. 
Oh well, hand me the hydrospanner will you, there is some fluidic
deformation on this nose lanthanum grid area that looks quite odd.  We
are getting some strange effects on this experimental vehicle aren't
we?"

Going beyond Jump-6 might be like going to transsonic airframe shapes
and moving to jet propulsion instead of props.  Perhaps at TL17 or 18
you get a new understanding of Jump space that leads someone to make a
much better Jump-6 drive.  Maybe it takes more fuel, or has a much
bigger flash when entering or exiting Jump space.  Perhaps it "roils"
Jump space where it enters so that another ship can't use that exact
entry area for a few days.  However, this change in drive technology
doesn't seem to have the same upper limit.  "You know what they say of
Vargr drives don't you?  You Barium! <laughter>  We all know that Barium
was only useful for Jump-1 drives, and had a lifetime of only a few
thousand Jumps.  It took the move to Lanthanum hull grids that allowed
us to move to Jump-2 and higher, and a lifetime in the tens of thousands
of Jumps (long enough for several generations of spacers to use a
particular hull).  We haven't changed from the Lanthanum grid in 2500
years, and I think this may be at least partly the cause of our Jump-6
limit.  We are going to try this new starship with a Europium grid and
this new synthesized crystal that has a much more specific set of
impurities than naturally occuring Zuchai crystals.  We also have hooked
up a new anti-matter power plant and retuned the Jump drive so the
hydrogen fuel is used at a speed an order of magnitude greater than any
tried before.  We think this will allow us to go further though it
promises to use a lot more fuel.  We've plumbed this test ship for drop
tanks so we can get enough fuel, and we had to strip out the maneuver
drive to make room for another tank.  I've also been listening with
great interest to Dr. Kagashima's theory on the background gravitational
effects and his ideas of Jumping along the Great Rift instead of across
them.  If this new setup we have on this ship looks like it is going to
work, I think I will offer to work with him and try to combine our
research."

Anyway, more wild Jump theories in the above paragraphs.  I hope you
enjoyed reading this as much as I did writing it.
Bibliography:
I found a periodic table at:  http://tqd.advanced.org/10676/Period/ 
- - Joseph

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #420
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 421



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)
J-5 tanks in a J-4 warship (was re: Economics of drop tanks)
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
re: Jump Limits
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
Re: Jump Limits
Annic Nova
Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 16:08:46 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)

On 04/08/99 at 03:14 PM,  Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Yes, that's the direction MTU went.  The drive, energy expended and
>displacement mass for jumps aren't the problem, IMTU it's the sensors
>and controls that are the limiting factor.

><snip>

>Additionally, *very* skillful astrogators *can* exceed the stated
>limits of the technology (succeed at more difficult tasks) and make
>longer jumps than rated for their jump system.  So, if they have the
>fuel and energy available, the desperate PC's can attempt a two
>parsec jump in their Jump-1 rated ship.  Note they have to be pretty
>desperate to try it, and they better have an *ace* astrogator aboard.
><g>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>If I pop a TL15 sensor/control suite into my TL9, Jump-1 warship
>(which has lots of power on board), how far can I jump? Will I only
>be limited by fuel supply?

Remember, this is MTU, not the OTU.  <g> Having said that, on to
your questions.

At *Electronics* Systems Tech Level (ESTL) 15 your supplier could
build a Jump-4 suite.

 ESTL    JN
 ==========
   9     1
  10     1+      <------
  11     2        this is the range of ESTL's
  12     2+       for most starfaring systems 
  13     3        IMTU
  14     3+      <------
  15     4
  16     4+
  17     5
  18     5+
  19     6
 
In theory, yes, you could have your J1 suite pulled, and a J4 suite
installed.  You would also have to expand the ship's fuel tankage
from 10% to 40% of ship volume and make sure the jump capacitors
have been beefed up to hold the increased charge.  I suspect this
would require pulling other systems from the ship to make room, and
on a warship that might mean either offensive or defensive weapons.

An expensive proposition, but doable. <g>

There is one more limitation I should mention.  The coil and grid
system have a max and min hull volume that can be built that varies
by JSTL (Jump Systems Tech Level).  The ESTL and the JSTL don't
always progress in lock step either.

MaxVolume = 7 * JSTL^4
MinVolume = 150 - (JSTL*4)

               DTon
 JSTL      MAX      MIN
 ======================
   9     45,927     114   <------
  10     70,000     110    this is the
  11    102,487     106    range of JSTL's
  12    145,152     102    for the pocket
  13    199,927      98    empires IMTU
  14    268,912      94
  15    354,375      90   <------
  16    458,752      86
  17    584,647      82
  18    734,832      78
  19    912,247      74
 
With this further limitation, it's usually a lot more cost effective
to build a new ship than to upgrade your TL9 warship, especially
with a 6 TL difference.  If the difference in TL is only 1 or 2 it
could be worth it.  

This situation might come up in various situations.  In a relic (TNE
like) environment it might be all you *can* do.  In a patchwork of
pocket empires of varying TL's, it would pay to buy advanced Jump
Suites if your JSTL exceeded the ESTL, ship them in and install them
in your larger hulls.  Where there are open frontiers bordering a
large empire older, less capable, ships might be refitted and sent
out after their useful operational life in the Wall of Battle is
over.

In my AKUS PBEM, the PC's ship, The Mae Lee, is an old J1+ ship that
has been upgraded to J2+, losing approx 100 dtons of cargo space in
the process.  This was done when the ship was converted from a cargo
ship to an exploratory trader.  The Mae Lee can't make money as a
simple cargo hauler anymore.  The new owners are going to have to
supplement their income with *other* activities:  speculative trade,
special cargo/passenger haulage, and/or OTHER...as in that career
type...things. <g>


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:06:26 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: J-5 tanks in a J-4 warship (was re: Economics of drop tanks)

Gary wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
For big military ships (like I always do w/ the Hivers), there will be extra 
tankage 
if the designer is worth his salt (IMTU, the Federation Navy, even in the New 
Era, maintains a standard of Jump 4 drives w/ J5 tankage).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
So against an otherwise equivalent starfleet that puts J-4 fuel on the J-4 
ships, your fleet won't win as often (10% less hull available for armor, power,
and weapons), but your losses may be less expensive than his as you
can more often retreat.

Do you install J-5 tanks so you can J-2 to the Oort cloud, J-1 to the
inner system and still have J-2 to get home?

I often find, with average stellar densities, that J-4 is used for movement
to the front while J-2 with J-2 reserve is used for movement into injun
territory. An extra jump into the Oort cloud will add a week to your
fleet's transit time and use more fuel, I'm not sure the extra jump is
worthwhile:

1) You obtain data that will be 1 week + C-lag old before you can use it
(the time it takes to jump the rest of the way to the system). If you'd
sent a scout to the Oort cloud with J-6+ tanks, it could return to base
and you could then send your fleet into the inner system with data
only two weeks older. Either set of reconaissance data will be old enough
that you can't depend on it, and sending just the scout keeps your
battlewagons defending your base (or forward staging area) for the 
downtime instead of sitting in an Oort cloud.

2) Even if you jump directly into a well-defended system, it would be
unlikely that an enemy force would be able to intercept you before you
could jump again (assuming you had J-4 tanks and had performed a J-2).
You probably even have time to refuel from your tanker squadron before
major contact with enemy forces (40 minutes per ship in HG, YRMV*).

Still, I could see a force inspired by Hivers using this kind of tactic - 
they'd probably send the Scout, wait for it to come back, analyze the data, 
and still jump to the Oort cloud.

Walt Smith

*YRMV = Your Rules May Vary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:15:29 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

At 01:53 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:
>
>TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
>TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7
>
>I was wondering if this is in error? I am curious why the higher TL drive
>uses more power, weighs more and costs more? Typically in these tables,
>higher TL causes less power consumption and less weight.
>
>What would be the advantage of designing a ship with TL 11 maneuver drives,
>when the TL 9 drives are lighter, consume less power and cost less?

The TL-9 AG units only fuction within a strong gravity field and their
performance is extremely poor past 10 planetary diameters.  The TL-11
Thruster units are the so-called "Thruster plates" and will work just about
anywhere.

Usually the AG is used for grav vehicles, little black grav vans, grav
tanks, g-carriers, etc.  The Thruster units are generally for small/large
craft, space ships and starships.

Hope this helps,

Kurt

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 16:17:20 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

On 04/08/99 at 05:01 PM,  "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:

>Toledo.

Nah!  You end up just outside the old GDW offices where you were
supposed to buy the secret of getting back to the Imperium. ;-p

Eris, 
    ps.  Ok, help me out.  I've forgotten if it was Bloomington or
    Normal where GDW was based?  I'm betting on Normal, as
    inappropriate as that may be.  ;-p
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Bruce Johnson writes:
 
> That's a lotta dice rolling. IIRC, the rules (probably TNE and CT which
> I usually remember best) say roll one d6 for direction, and then 1d6 *
> d6 for distance, so it is in a straight line.
Actually, 12 rolls isn't that horrible.  The standard rules mean that there are
a _lot_ of hexes within 36 parsecs which can't be reached on a misjump, which
seems somewhat weird.
> 
> In fact, that makes sense, since all other jumps, mis or otherwise are
> in a stright line.

Um...they might be defined as a 'straight line', but they don't necessarily
follow a straight line of hexes:
 __    __
/ X\__/ Y\   This is a legal jump 2.
\__/  \__/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:24:28 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

From: Shawn Campbell <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??


>The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:
>
>TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
>TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7
>
>I was wondering if this is in error? I am curious why the higher TL drive
>uses more power, weighs more and costs more? Typically in these tables,
>higher TL causes less power consumption and less weight.
>
>What would be the advantage of designing a ship with TL 11 maneuver drives,
>when the TL 9 drives are lighter, consume less power and cost less?


    IMTU, Thrusters are useable in deep space & Anti-Grav units are only
useable near a large gravity source.  Like a Planet.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:24:42 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

Shawn Campbell posted:
>
>The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:
>
>TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
>TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7
>
>I was wondering if this is in error? I am curious why the higher TL drive
>uses more power, weighs more and costs more? Typically in these tables,
>higher TL causes less power consumption and less weight.
>
>What would be the advantage of designing a ship with TL 11 maneuver drives,
>when the TL 9 drives are lighter, consume less power and cost less?

Shawn

Below are the only two entries my MT errata lists I have pertaining to
anti-grav and thruster drives. I can send you all that I have as a zipped
.RTF file, if you'd like.

   Page 65, Step 5 (clarification): An anti-grav unit requires a gravity
well to push against, so an anti-grav maneuver drive is less efficient at
10 diameters and beyond. The effective maneuver number of the craft drops
by 50% at 10 diameters and beyond; for example, a maneuver-2 drive drops
to a maneuver-1, and a maneuver-1 drops to a maneuver-0.5. Thruster
units do not suffer these effects.

   Page 95, right column, Special Rules (addition): A space vessel with
an anti-grav based maneuver drive has its maneuver drive number halved
when 10 or more squares away from a massive astronomical body. A
thruster based maneuver drive does not suffer these effects.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:26:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Jump Limits

Joseph Kimball wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
"You know, these new Jump-6 drives are a
marvel.  Truely wonderful.  But you know the current Jump theory says
there ought to be 36 levels of Jump space.  Just think about all those
strange misJumps we hear about sometimes.  I wonder why Jump drives
shiver into their component bolts or disappear in an incredible blast of
light never to be heard of again when you try to set them for Jump-7. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The biggest problem with advanced Jump experiments is the tendency
of failed experimental craft to vanish without a trace in jump space.
It's hard to learn from your mistakes when the universe cleans up after
you so thoroughly. 

This gives me an idea for an encounter. The PC's have a misjump, and
send for a repair vessel. A Lab Ship shows up instead, with an
acclaimed Doctor of the Rhylanor Jumpspace Institute on board, 
Her and her team want to go over every millimeter of their ship to 
gather data on the higher levels of jumpspace, since it's cheaper to find
ships that have misjumped and survived than it is to deliberately cause
an expensive test ship to misjump and hope it survives. 

Every day spent with scientists poking at the wrecked jump drive is
another day away from getting it fixed and another day away from
getting back to trading. Having an acclaimed top-notch scientist think
well of you (and be a contact) can be very, very useful. Who knows,
if your ship brought enough data back from the Jump-20 level the
Imperial Navy might simply buy it from you outright...or try to confiscate
it...;)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:31:48 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
:     ps.  Ok, help me out.  I've forgotten if it was Bloomington or
:     Normal where GDW was based?  I'm betting on Normal, as
:     inappropriate as that may be.  ;-p

Normal, until 1980 sometime, and then Bloomington.



==> Visit the Subsidized Merchant <==
         http://surf.to/traveller-trader

___________hosted_by___________
               www.downport.com 
     A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:38:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

> From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
> Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
> 
> Toledo.

Critical mishap:  Boise
Critical mishap with vindictive referee:  Boise, 1975

- --Glenn Goffin
(starship misjump survivor, stranded in Boise -2553 to -2545; voluntary
residence to perfect skiing skill -2540 to -2536)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:51:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> In theory, yes, you could have your J1 suite pulled, and a J4 suite
> installed.  You would also have to expand the ship's fuel tankage
> from 10% to 40% of ship volume and make sure the jump capacitors
> have been beefed up to hold the increased charge. 

If this is an absolute requirement for a ship to make the increased jum
distance, then how does that jump-1 ship with only 10% tankage manage to
jump up to 36 hexes in a misjump? Somehow, someway, you CAN access those
higher jump-levels using only the lower amount of fuel.

I would say that no matter what, a ship that misjumps suffers some kind of
damage - overload to the cpacitors, or similar damage. Of course, I do NOT
claim to be a gearhead. This would be for dramatic value, and to possibly
trap the characters on a primitive world for some time while they make
repairs  :)

Brannon


http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Shawn Campbell wrote:
> 
>> The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:
> 
>> TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
>> TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7
> 
>> I was wondering if this is in error?

>I can't find the errata right now, but there IS a reason they call MT
>MegaTypo...

True, but not in this case.  In the descriptions of such devices it says
that anti-grav units have their thrust halved if they are more than 10
diameters from a planet or star.  So, your 2G drives becomes a 1G drive
if you want to fly from Earth to Mars.  Thruster units do not have this
limit. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:54:53 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

>>>> (begin quoted material)
The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:

TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7

I was wondering if this is in error? I am curious why the higher TL
drive
uses more power, weighs more and costs more? Typically in these
tables,
higher TL causes less power consumption and less weight.

What would be the advantage of designing a ship with TL 11 maneuver
drives,
when the TL 9 drives are lighter, consume less power and cost less?

Shawn Campbell
>>>> (end quoted material)
Anti-grav is only useful in a gravity well, and gets less effective the
farther away you are.  AG can get you to the 100d limit, but they get
quite a bit less efficient once you are out of a standard orbit. 
Thrusters (T-plates) are not limited to gravity wells, and you can use
them as easily half-way to the Oort cloud as you can in low Earth
orbit.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:47:59 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

At 08:54 AM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson writes:
>>> BTW, one detail the John W. Campbell pointed out back in the 60s.
>> Barring some major breaktrough, electric cars will not be able to spare
>> the power to run electrical heaters, and they won't produce enough
>> "waste heat" to drive a normal heater (or air conditioner for that
>> matter). 
>
>Hm...ideally, you could probably create a dramatically more efficient
heater by
>using a heat pump (a reversed air conditioning unit).  I assume there's some
>technical reason this isn't normally practical, since it could allow a 5-10x
>increase in the efficiency of a heater (with the side effect of extremely
>_cold_ air being produced on the outside).

AFAIK, heat pumps are only effective when they operate between environments
that are only a few degrees apart.  So in a warm climate, they are useful
for raising the temperature a little, but they aren't too good in really
cold weather.  

That's why they are popular for household heating in Florida, but not up
here (NY).





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:02:14 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419

>>>> (begin quoted material)
<snip>
When the astrogator looks into his "tank" he is using specialized
sensors to "see" masses at multi-parsec ranges.  He has to be able
to precisely locate them and by adjusting controls lock onto the
right one with that "gravitic hook" I mentioned yesterday.  At
higher TL's (and I break TL's down into technology subgroups) better
sensors and controls can be built allowing longer jumps to be made.
<snip>
This is MTU, of course, but I think it adds a lot of flavor. 

Eris
>>>> (end quoted material)
I am a bit worried about the "gravitic hook" idea, since it implies
that you can only Jump to a large mass, and not to empty space.  It
seemed clear to me from the things the Marc has said on this list that
you can Jump to empty places that are nowhere near the 100d limit of
anything.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by a "gravitic
hook" though.  Your ideas do add quite a bit of flavor, I just feel
uncomfortable about the hook idea.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:04:57 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 

> In my AKUS PBEM, the PC's ship, The Mae Lee, is an old J1+ ship that
> has been upgraded to J2+, losing approx 100 dtons of cargo space in
> the process.  This was done when the ship was converted from a cargo
> ship to an exploratory trader.  The Mae Lee can't make money as a
> simple cargo hauler anymore.  The new owners are going to have to
> supplement their income with *other* activities:  speculative trade,
> special cargo/passenger haulage, and/or OTHER...as in that career
> type...things. <g>

Yeah, yeah yeah...that's what you keep _saying_ Eris, but I'm beginning
to think that the Mae Lee is a relatavistic target...time certainly
seems to be slowing down as we get closer. :-P

But thanks for all the info, Eris...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:05:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 04/08/99 at 05:01 PM,  "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:
> 
> >Toledo.
> 
> Nah!  You end up just outside the old GDW offices where you were
> supposed to buy the secret of getting back to the Imperium. ;-p

Only if you miss the left in Albequerque...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:16:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)

Brannon W. Boren wrote:
> 
> If this is an absolute requirement for a ship to make the increased jum
> distance, then how does that jump-1 ship with only 10% tankage manage to
> jump up to 36 hexes in a misjump? Somehow, someway, you CAN access those
> higher jump-levels using only the lower amount of fuel.

Yep, and this is _exactly_ the kind of question that makes Jumpspace
physicists have such a high rate of substance abuse...;-)

These sorts of events make it clear that JS is very poorly understood,
and significant, orders of magnitude improvements are possible...if they
could just figure out why some misjumps go 1 parsec, some go 36, some go
boom, some pop up 300 years in the future, some just never re-appear,
and some do, only they're spread out as a fine free-quark mist from here
to the intended target.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 15:21:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419

Joseph Kimball wrote:
> 
> I am a bit worried about the "gravitic hook" idea, since it implies
> that you can only Jump to a large mass, and not to empty space.  It
> seemed clear to me from the things the Marc has said on this list that
> you can Jump to empty places that are nowhere near the 100d limit of
> anything.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by a "gravitic
> hook" though.  Your ideas do add quite a bit of flavor, I just feel
> uncomfortable about the hook idea.

Oh, Eris is the Archetype Heretic, one of the 4 Horsemen of the TML, so
_nothing_ in his TU necessarily coincides with the OTU, and any such
coincidence is just that...<insert X-Files theme here>...a coincidence 

This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does the
astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:22:46 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

I was looking more at the periodic table site
(http://tqd.advanced.org/10676/Period/)
and found some interesting tidbits.
Barium 133 has a half-life of 10.5 years (Ba-130, 132, 134, 125, 136,
137, 138 are stable).  If this is the isotope of Barium used by early
Vargr drives, it would make a lot of sense for the drives/hulls to be
buried after the end of their useful life (after about 10 years).  They
would have lost too much of the Barium to be useful as a Jump drive
component.
On the other hand, Lanthanum 137 has a half-life of 6000 years (La-139
is stable).  This is plenty of time for useful ships that last many
generations.
More thoughts for the wild Jump drive theory brigade.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 18:24:30 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Annic Nova

Hi.  I'm currently in the process of switching from T4 to GT, and I was
hoping to run the old CT Annic Nova adventure.  Would any of you gearhead
types be willing to convert the Annic Nova stats to GT?  I don't have CT,
so the numbers are kinda meaningless to me, beyond the jump number and
acceleration...

Thanks,





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:33:44 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

>Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
>
>What method do people use to determine what system a misjump lands you in?  I
>guess the 1d6 d6 parsec jump tells you how far, but it doesn't help much for
>what system you actually wind up in.
>
>I was thinking of doing misjump as a random-walk pattern -- roll 1d for
each of
>distance and direction, 6 times.  Not sure exactly how the average on that
>compares to avg for standard misjump, but at least it makes a nice even
>pattern, not one which is spread out along certain lines or something.
>

I thought about that -- it *is* a nice pattern. But a random walk only
increases sqrt(2)/2 x as fast as a straight projection. Your average
distance, instead of 6 * 3.5 = 21pc, would be 6 * 3.5 * 0.8 = 17pc. If this
doesn't bother you, have at it. Otherwise, use the base throw (range and
bearing) for the 60 degree arc that the jump lands in, then randomly pick
the exact hex along the arc (the number of choices is equal to the range).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #421
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 422



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Imperial Fashions
Re: drop tanks
Misjumps
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
re Pushing the Limits
Re: Striker errata
what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?
GT Laser
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??
Re: Misjumps
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?
Re: GT Laser
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Far Trader Economics
GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Traveller PBeM being considered
Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:57:43 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

> > How?  I mean, the real mind and body is still being used.  Remember when
> > Cipher unplugs the others, they died in the Matrix.  I wonder if the 
Agents
<snip>
> 
> I was talking about the 'unawakened' humans.
> For the jacked in, I assumed that pulling the plug with the conscience was
> in the Matrix was death for normal physiological reasons, no juice to the
> brain or something like that.  There is some inconsistency there though.

Yeah, but you die in the Matrix, your body dies "because the body cannot 
survive without the mind," remember?  And if 'unawakened' die in the Matrix 
(or take the red pill or whatever), they get disconnected by the robot.  
Anyone thinking they were Superman or a prophet or something would be visited 
by some Agents, more likely than not, don't you think? (Though i'm still 
dubious they could do severe breaks to the rules).  Where do you see 
inconsistency?  

> Althogh its an interestin parallel to the silver cord ideal in astral 
travel.

Yeah.  I would think that a body who's mind died would go comatose or 
something... and should probably be eventually be recoverable, should medical 
attention be there, or something like that.  I'm not a doctor, though...  
what could medically happen there?  Like the old saying that if you dream 
your own death, you'll die... 

> > > some religious analysis of the film though].
> >
> > There has? Or do u mean this discussion?
> 
> Not here.  The characters represent, so its been said:
<snip>

Where?  

Oh, one note I caught from this thread on r.g.f.gurps... the Oracle's kids 
could break rules, too.  Others w/ Computer Empathy (or whatever you wanna 
call it), like Neo, but maybe mentally unbalanced by it... (are more psi's 
looney?)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:08:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Imperial Fashions

I stumbled across a site that has photos of fashions from lots of
different designers. The majority of the haute couture stuff strikes me as
being straight from the Imperial Palace. A lot of very bizarre stuff you
could never wear unless you had people to dress you. Also a lot of Blade
Runner style outfits.

What do people wear in YTU?

Check it out.
http://www.firstview.com/home.html

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:14:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: drop tanks

>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:46:09 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>They also have the problem in that they firmly establish
>>that jump fuel can be converted to power and should be
>>usable for other purposes.

>  I may have missed something in this thread, but this only follows
>(i.e., shooting up the displacement mass hand-wave) if it is clearly
>specified that jump can be held for a significant time period after
>the tanks are dropped; I've heard this, but don't know the page ref.

Its at least in the TNS entry.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:18:56 -0400
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Misjumps

IMC when a ship misjumps a research group will try to either lease the
ship, buy it or swap for it. Things can get real interesting when a couple
of mega corps both want the ship. If the Pc's wait to long the Imperium
will "borrow" the ship and give them a loaner. The mystery of missjumps
might well be the key to longer jumps or more fuel efficient travel. 

I wonder if Jump 7 is even possible. You can't even do a 7 in a misjump.
Maybe all ships that hit that part of Jump space are destroyed.
Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:12:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Christopher Thrash writes:
 
> I thought about that -- it *is* a nice pattern. But a random walk only
> increases sqrt(2)/2 x as fast as a straight projection. Your average
> distance, instead of 6 * 3.5 = 21pc, would be 6 * 3.5 * 0.8 = 17pc. If this
> doesn't bother you, have at it. Otherwise, use the base throw (range and
> bearing) for the 60 degree arc that the jump lands in, then randomly pick
> the exact hex along the arc (the number of choices is equal to the range).

Actually, a true random-walk increases as the square root of the number of
steps, and thus averages 8 or 9.  This is slightly lower than the average of
1d6 * 1d6 (or 1d6 d6)
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 18:22:11 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: re Pushing the Limits

On 04/08/99 at 04:02 PM,  "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> said:

>I am a bit worried about the "gravitic hook" idea, since it implies
>that you can only Jump to a large mass, and not to empty space.  It
>seemed clear to me from the things the Marc has said on this list
>that you can Jump to empty places that are nowhere near the 100d
>limit of anything.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by a
>"gravitic hook" though.  Your ideas do add quite a bit of flavor, I
>just feel uncomfortable about the hook idea.

I did stress that this was MTU not the OTU.

Yes, I require you jump to a large mass, and not empty space.  Of
course, some of those empty hexes have "dark masses" that don't
appear on the jump maps.  Finding them is an important task of the
Scouts, IMTU.  Exploratory Traders love to "open routes" this way,
too.

If jumping to empty space is the OTU way, and I'm not *sure* it is,
then you can substitute something else for the "gravitic hook" that
anchors the other end of the "artificial wormhole" at that location.
I'll leave that to the imagination of the readers. ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:20:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Striker errata

Dear Steven et al -

Since I'm sending Steven this errata, I thought I might as well post it to
the list.

I have a copy of Striker Book 1 (3rd printing), Book 2, and Book 3 (both
4th printings). You can tell which version you have (of any Trav book) by
looking at the back of the title page. Halfway down the page is a string of
numbers. The first printing starts at number 1; subsequent reprints begin
at a later number, which is the print version, eg.:
      3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12
means you have version 3.

This errata was included in the _Striker_ boxed set as an individual sheet
of paper.
- -+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-
STRIKER ERRATA

     The following errata have been found in the second printing of
_Striker_.

The _Design Sequence Tables_:

     On the notes to the CPR gun table, the tech level modifiers for HE
penetration are wrong. Count down one row for each _two_ tech levels above
6, as stated in Book 3.

     The tac missile propellant table has been changed, as shown at right
[now below]. Increase the weight multiplier by .1 for every km of range
over 4.

     PROPELLANT TABLE
     Range     Weight Multiplier
     1         x1
     1.5       x1.5
     2         x2
     2.5       x2.25
     3         x2.5
     3.5       x2.75
     4         x3

_Book 2_:

     In Rule 75, Naval Vessels, the _Striker_ armour rating corresponding
to a _High Guard_ armour rating of zero should be 40, not 60.

_Book 3_:

     Grav generators are available starting at tech level 8.

     In Design Sequence 2, CPR Guns, it should be stated that the effects
of illum and chaff rounds last for two turns.

     In Design Sequence 9, Tac Missiles, it should be stated that all tac
misslies have a signature DM of +2.

     The characteristics of grav modules as given in Design Sequence 10,
Drone Missiles and Vehicles, are wrong. Each kilogram of grav module costs
Cr50, has a volume of .0005 cubic metres, and produces 25 kilograms of
thrust.

     In Design Sequence 11, Aircraft, the agility formula should be
altered. Instead of the term MS/100, substitute the direct fire hit DM
(from the combat tables) corresponding to the aircraft's maximum speed.

     Note that aircraft agility in _Striker_ is not the same as agility in
_High Guard_. To find a spacecraft's _Striker_ agility, determine its
maximum speed by checking its _High Guard_ agility against the grav speed
table; then use the aircraft agility formula.

[Errata supplied in the _Striker_ boxed set, copyright GDW, Bloomington,
IL, USA, 1982?.]
- -+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-

You may be interested to note that the last errata above gives an agility 6
starship a frighteningly high turn of speed (the _Striker_ table is the
same as the speed table in the MT Ref's Manual, FWIW) - from memory about
3000+ kph.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:31:04 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
 
> This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does the
> astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space. 

>From an examination given by the Duke of Regina's Preparatory Academy,
in the course Fundamentals of Starship Operations (usually taken in the
year before graduation):

The astrogator is looking into a tank in preparation for jump.  Pick the
answer that most accurately describes what he looking for:

(a) He is looking for his blind spot and will note its coordinates in
the tank's coordinate system.

(b) He is looking for certain geometric shapes that cannot exist in
normal space and will direct the ship through the appropriate one.

(c) He won't be able to see anything unless he's been eating melange.

(d) He is looking for several numbers.  He, the captain, and the other
starmen will each perform a complex calculation with those numbers,
using only pen and paper, and compare their results.  If all agree, they
will jump.

Work accurately and as quickly as you can.  If you finish before the end
of the test, look over your answers.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:37:17 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: GT Laser

I've posted a new laser module on my web site.  It's an optimized TL12 -
1DT laser, the biggest that you can cram into one slot.  I'm a big fan of
optimizing the NPC's weapon systems, since the players tend to do this
whenever they get a chance.  I ran the numbers, and the 405MJ system from
GT takes up only about 1/2 a DT....  





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:27:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:
>>
>> TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
>> TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7
>>
>> I was wondering if this is in error?
>
>I can't find the errata right now, but there IS a reason they call MT
>MegaTypo...

But Antigrav differs from T Plates - it's a contragrav like system, and is
more efficient at the low end...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:39:08 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

> I wonder if Jump 7 is even possible. You can't even do a 7 in a misjump.
> Maybe all ships that hit that part of Jump space are destroyed.
> Alan
>
Why can't you misjump7? I thought you rolled 1D to see how many dice to
throw for misjump. Example: If you roll a 3 on 1D, roll 3D to see how far
you misjump, 3D rolls:2,1,4=7.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:40:58 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Dear Folks -

Shawn wrote:
>I agree with your statements. That's how I would handle the situation, but
>MT rules seem to read as though autofire targets must be alternate
targets.

The MT combat rules are not at all clear. That's why I really appreciated
Joe's explanation. Just wish he had broken down rapid fire into a fuller
explanation like the others!

>Is it possible to conduct "rapid-fire" and reload in the same round with
>slow drug?

>But, if rapid-fire is conducted, then the character is
?essentially "holding down the trigger" for the entire combat round (which
>wouldn't make any difference if the character was on slow drug or not)

I agree with your analysis. The rule states that they empty the mag *in
that round* and must spend the next turn reloading. This is a mechanical
thing. Just like AD&D, where you can't use a wand twice in one round even
when Hasted. ;-)

Anyway even if a player argued that they should be able to conduct rapid
fire AND reload in 6 seconds, for game balance I would say NO. However, I
would say that they can reload _and conduct normal fire_ during the next
round - you just need to impose a suitable initiative penalty.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:57:00 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?

At 04:31 pm 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
> 
>> This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does
the
>> astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space. 
>
>>From an examination given by the Duke of Regina's Preparatory
Academy,
>in the course Fundamentals of Starship Operations (usually taken in
the
>year before graduation):
>
>The astrogator is looking into a tank in preparation for jump.  Pick
the
>answer that most accurately describes what he looking for:
>
>(a) He is looking for his blind spot and will note its coordinates
in
>the tank's coordinate system.
>
>(b) He is looking for certain geometric shapes that cannot exist in
>normal space and will direct the ship through the appropriate one.
>
>(c) He won't be able to see anything unless he's been eating
melange.
>
>(d) He is looking for several numbers.  He, the captain, and the
other
>starmen will each perform a complex calculation with those numbers,
>using only pen and paper, and compare their results.  If all agree,
they
>will jump.

	(d)--All must pay homage to the Grand Master. (Except I think they
also look things up in paper books, like logarithms to help do the
math).
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:40:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Laser

Juliean Galak writes:
> I've posted a new laser module on my web site.  It's an optimized TL12 -
> 1DT laser, the biggest that you can cram into one slot.  I'm a big fan of
> optimizing the NPC's weapon systems, since the players tend to do this
> whenever they get a chance.  I ran the numbers, and the 405MJ system from
> GT takes up only about 1/2 a DT....  

Then your numbers are wrong ;).  Volumes are as follows:
Laser: 7500 lb, 150 cf
Stabilization: 750 lb, 15 cf 
Universal mount: 3750 lb, 75 cf
18 MW power plant slice: 3600 lb, 72 cf
Long term access space for power plant: 144 cf
Total: 456 cf.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 00:40:39 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:

<<<<<
Actually, if you sit down and do some calculations, you'll find that
this is wrong. 

First thing, the "distance" is not fixed, but in terms of planetary
*diameter*. Therefore, the limit must depend on *something* that varies
with the *size* of the planet. 

The default Traveller planet, be it size 1 or size A has the same
density as Earth. So, since they have uniform density, it turns out
that their mass depends on their diameter.

Size    dia     mass
- - ----  ----    -------
1       1/7     (1/7)^3
2       2/7     (2/7)^3 
3       3/7     (3/7)^3
4       4/7     (4/7)^3
5       5/7     (6/7)^3
6       6/7     (6/7)^3 
7       1       1
8       8/7     (8/7)^3
9       9/7     (9/7)^3
A       10/7    (10/7)^3

So the mass goes up as the cube of the diameter. But we need something
that goes up *linearly* with diameter.

Acceleration due to gravity goes as mass (thus 3rd power), but also
*drops* as the square root of distance (1/2 power). Thus acceleration
varies as the 3/2 power of diameter of a fixed density body. So that's
no good.

The rate at which acceleration changes (aka tidal force, aka gravity
gradient, aka curvature of space) varies as the *third* root of
distance. and directly as mass. So that gives a variance of 3/3 or 1
with respect to diameter of a fixed density body. That matches. 
>>>>>

Please could you explain this in a little more detail? 

What calculations should I do?

I suspect you are right but I am having trouble following the argument.

Why is the jump limit for a 3 solar mass black hole different from a 3 solar
mass star, using your method?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 01:02:43 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

Dominic Mooney wrote:

>>No. A GT Beowulf costs 29MCr. Mortgage per month is 29/240 = 120 MCr/
>>month, or 60MCr/Jump.

>Hmm. May I suggest that you consider using a bank for your starship
>purchase, not a loan shark? ;-)

What? You mean 1000% interest is not standard? 
I must have a word with my bank manager :(

I guess all these minor errors are due to me processing my TML mail late at
night, after my wife has gone to sleep.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:06:44 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

James Pearson has built a GCM database for GT.  It contains all 
advantages, disadvantages, weapons, armor and equipment.

You can get it at

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

He did a good job.  If you use GCM and play GT, then you should 
check out.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:17:51 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
> 
> > This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does the
> > astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space.
> 
> >From an examination given by the Duke of Regina's Preparatory Academy,
> in the course Fundamentals of Starship Operations (usually taken in the
> year before graduation):
> 
> The astrogator is looking into a tank in preparation for jump.  Pick the
> answer that most accurately describes what he looking for:
> 
> (a) He is looking for his blind spot and will note its coordinates in
> the tank's coordinate system.
> 
> (b) He is looking for certain geometric shapes that cannot exist in
> normal space and will direct the ship through the appropriate one.
> 
> (c) He won't be able to see anything unless he's been eating melange.
> 
> (d) He is looking for several numbers.  He, the captain, and the other
> starmen will each perform a complex calculation with those numbers,
> using only pen and paper, and compare their results.  If all agree, they
> will jump.
> 
> Work accurately and as quickly as you can.  If you finish before the end
> of the test, look over your answers.
> 
The answer is, of course, both (b) and (c), for the following reasons:

The astrogator is looking for Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds (hereafter
abbreviated LSD).  Since LSD cannot exist for long in normal space, this
ties in with answer (b).  Further, since seeing LSD (and related
phenomena) is often directly related to eating unusual substances, (c)
is also part of the answer, although whether the substance in question
is melange is dependent on the biochemistry and culture of the
astrogator in question.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:10:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

John Buston writes:
 
> Why is the jump limit for a 3 solar mass black hole different from a 3
> solar mass star, using your method?

Using his method, it isn't.  Using the standard method, it is dramatically
different (and forces arguments about what an 'object' actually is; is a blob
of plasma an object?  Presumably it is, a star is a blob of plasma.  Of course,
an interstellar gas cloud is also basically an extremely low density blob of
plasma...and might be dozens of lightyears across).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:26:56 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Traveller PBeM being considered

Dear Folks -

SciFiFan56@aol.com posted:
>Play will focus on the Entropic Worlds
>in the Vilis subsector of the Spinward Marches in 1120.

Huh? Either you mean "the Entropic worlds in the _Darrian_ subsector" or
"the Entropic worlds _AND_ the Vilis subsector".
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:28:15 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: MT Maneuver Drive Tables ??

Dear Folks -

Shawn asked about:
>The referee's manual for MT tables for maneuver drives:

>TL 9 Anti-grav unit 65mw, 13.5kl, 27 tons, MCr 0.5
>TL 11 Thruster unit 70mw, 13.5kl, 35 tons, MCr 0.7

The anti-grav drives only work at 100 percent inside a gravity well. Once
outside 10 diameters, efficiency drops to 10 percent of rated thrust.

Thrusters, on the other hand, always work - although there a few on the
list who use a house rule that has thrusters dropping off in efficiency at
some far distance from a gravity well (1 AU?). They have Pluto supplied by
fusion rocket, and when in empty hexes thrusters are only useful for
station-keeping.

Bruce said:
>I can't find the errata right now, but there IS a reason they call MT
>MegaTypo...

True, but mean, considering they had to re-type EVERYTHING! ;-)

SwordWorlder said:
>Toledo.

Damn. "There's NO place like home!" <click> "There's NO place like home!"
<click>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #422
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, April 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 423



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: GT Laser
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: J-5 tanks in a J-4 warship
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #421
Re: Armor update (was AHL?)
Astrogators
Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?
Adventures (and Fashion)
Mora info in Far Trader
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Re: Adventures (and Fashion)
Re: re Pushing the Limits
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Misjumps
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:27:29 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

Dear Folks -

[I really should read all my mail before replying ;-)]

Shawn wrote:
>Would the person conducting rapid-fire have more time to aim?

Don't do it, Shawn! "Must... control... gauss... rifle... of... death..."

Seriously, for game balance I would say no. For a character reason, I would
argue that the recoil in rapid fire prevents you from aiming properly, even
if you are using slow drug.

BTW, you may also consider inflicting the PC with some sort of drug
dependancy if they are going to use this as a constant tactic. ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:27:45 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Dear Folks -

Anthony asked:
>What method do people use to determine what system a misjump lands you in?

 Well, for me personally, it is a plot device to get the PC's somewhere you
want them to be. If you truly calculate misjumps as per the rules, 50-60
percent of the time you'll wind up in an empty hex with no fuel. The
remaining 40 percent of the time the PC's will wind up where you don't want
them to go, probably derailing your plot line. Do you really want to do
this to your campaign?

If the answer is yes, then it is _still_ a plot device.

If no, then just pretend to roll randomly (it should be a ref's roll or a
confrontation task anyway, since the PC's don't know if jump was successful
until they emerge) and place the ship where you want it to be.

Certainly, you can use random rolls as a guide, but don't be a slave to
them (or any other rolls, for that matter).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:39:35 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: GT Laser

At 04:40 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak writes:
>> I've posted a new laser module on my web site.  It's an optimized TL12 -
>> 1DT laser, the biggest that you can cram into one slot.  I'm a big fan of
>> optimizing the NPC's weapon systems, since the players tend to do this
>> whenever they get a chance.  I ran the numbers, and the 405MJ system from
>> GT takes up only about 1/2 a DT....  
>
>Then your numbers are wrong ;).  Volumes are as follows:
>Laser: 7500 lb, 150 cf
>Stabilization: 750 lb, 15 cf 
>Universal mount: 3750 lb, 75 cf
>18 MW power plant slice: 3600 lb, 72 cf
>Long term access space for power plant: 144 cf
>Total: 456 cf.
Aha!  I've been missing the access space!  That's why my numbers never
quite matched... thanks!



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:42:35 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

At 01:30 PM 08/04/99 -0700, you wrote:
>What method do people use to determine what system a misjump lands you in?  I
>guess the 1d6 d6 parsec jump tells you how far, but it doesn't help much for
>what system you actually wind up in.
>
>I was thinking of doing misjump as a random-walk pattern -- roll 1d for each of
>distance and direction, 6 times.  Not sure exactly how the average on that
>compares to avg for standard misjump, but at least it makes a nice even
>pattern, not one which is spread out along certain lines or something.
>
>Comments?
>
        I do 1d random direction, followed by 1d for number of distance
dice, and then throw that many dice for the distance misjumped.  I always
terminate the jump in a gravity well, even if it means "cutting short" or
"running out" the misjump by a few parsecs.  IOW, the misjump *always* comes
out in a star system.  
        I then roll 6d-6 x10 for number of AU from the star....  Every once
in a while you get some poor schmuck who survives a 40-parsec misjump only
to come out one the edge of the photosphere of a star...  

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 21:08:36 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: J-5 tanks in a J-4 warship

> For big military ships (like I always do w/ the Hivers), there will be 
extra 
> tankage 
> if the designer is worth his salt (IMTU, the Federation Navy, even in the 
New 
> Era, maintains a standard of Jump 4 drives w/ J5 tankage).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> So against an otherwise equivalent starfleet that puts J-4 fuel on the J-4 
> ships, your fleet won't win as often (10% less hull available for armor, 
power,
> and weapons), but your losses may be less expensive than his as you
> can more often retreat.

Yeah, but remember, this is Hivers.  If the odds are even against capital 
ships, it's time to bug out, before the range can close... maybe let em have 
some FIMs or ithklur fighters before, though. ;-)  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:33:34 -0500
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

Mr. Bont hath spake unto us:
> 
> James Pearson has built a GCM database for GT.  It contains all
> advantages, disadvantages, weapons, armor and equipment.
> 
> You can get it at
> 
> http://209.39.36.25/gurps/
> 
> He did a good job.  If you use GCM and play GT, then you should
> check out.

Hate to break the news, bud, but the copy of James' database
your site links to is as empty as the Spinward Marches' Abyss.
Nary a weapon, crowbar, skill, or skill category listed in
it.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:42:22 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #421

(splurk....)
Aw, man, my keyboard did _not_ need that...

>> Toledo.
> 
> Critical mishap:  Boise
> Critical mishap with vindictive referee:  Boise, 1975
>
> - --Glenn Goffin
> (starship misjump survivor, stranded in Boise -2553 to -2545; voluntary
> residence to perfect skiing skill -2540 to -2536)

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:00:34 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

1. I'm not holding my breath either.

2. Traveller props are ok???!!! I wish to place my PGMP-16 order now please 

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:26:13 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Astrogators

Sorry Bruce - you've misunderstood the rules reference.  The bridge does
not HAVE an astrogator, the bridge is designed to help SPOT the astrogator!
The astrogator is basically a really large Everglades Alligator.  So large
as to be of astronomic proportions, in fact.

The collapse of the Vilani Empire was in no small part caused by this
horrible creature, which was consuming entire Vilani fleets on their way to
combat the Vargr corsairs.  After having eaten enough, the Astrogator went
into a 300 year hibernation, but was awakened in time to give birth to a
large number of smaller children (lower-case astrogators) just before the
collapse of the Rule of Man empire.  The central bank at Hub/Ershur refused
to recognize a bank draft from a regional bank not becuase of economic
weakness, but becuase the accompanying letter of credit (along with the
courier) had been consumed by a young astrogator who had somehow made its
way onto an Imperial courier ship.

The sharp downturn in space traffic that accompanied the Long Night made
for a hungry time for the astrogators, and the species largely dies out.  A
few survived in Zhodani space, and some were living high on the hog in
Hiver space, devouring multi-tentacled yummies.  After about 1600 years,
the species was able to make a dramatic comeback, and were responsible for
the missing Imperial X-Boats carrying word of Strephon's survival in 1116,
which directly led to the very harsh (but astrogator-filling) Rebellion
period.

I could go on, but I have milked this about as far as my conscience will
allow....

Steve Charlton

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419

> This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does the
> astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 19:37:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?

> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

(My own earlier post:)
> >>From an examination given by the Duke of Regina's Preparatory
> Academy, in the course Fundamentals of Starship Operations 

> >The astrogator is looking into a tank in preparation for jump.  Pick
> the answer that most accurately describes what he looking for:

> >(d) He is looking for several numbers.  He, the captain, and the
> other starmen will each perform a complex calculation with those numbers,
> >using only pen and paper, and compare their results.  If all agree,
> they will jump.

And Mr. Golden gets the extra credit points with:
 
>         (d)--All must pay homage to the Grand Master. (Except I think they
> also look things up in paper books, like logarithms to help do the
> math).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:28:16 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Adventures (and Fashion)

	The question about fashion got me thinking.   I have two adventures 
written up and in both of them various patrons or businessmen are described 
as wearing outrageous jumpsuits of one form or another.    Actually, if 
anyone would like a copy of these adventures e-mail me and I'll send them to 
you (in RTF). They are:

	"Star of People's Justice"  players are hired as territorial marshals 
in mine country around a domed city, and must deal with terrorists, 
bushwhackers and hippies.

	"It Beats Shoveling Shemdur on Armanx, Barely"  is meant as a start 
up adventure to get players founding their own mercenary unit.  They must 
quickly raise a squad of troops and guard a facility against an unruly mob 
(including hippies), saboteurs, inflitrators, air/raft gangsters and a horde 
of angry trees.

	I think that they're at least a fun read.   They are meant as T4 
adventures, but could be adapted to any of the other systems without too much 
trouble.

				Dave Nelson
				avenelso@aol.com  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Mora info in Far Trader

On page 135, Mora has a trade classification of cx. What the heck 
is that? A misprint or just not supposed to be there.

Terry



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:43:22 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

> > Shawn wrote:
> >Would the person conducting rapid-fire have more time to aim? [When using
Slow Drug]
>
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson wrote:
> Don't do it, Shawn! "Must... control... gauss... rifle... of... death..."
>
> Seriously, for game balance I would say no. For a character reason, I
> would argue that the recoil in rapid fire prevents you from aiming
> properly, even if you are using slow drug.
>
> BTW, you may also consider inflicting the PC with some sort of drug
> dependancy if they are going to use this as a constant tactic. ;-)

I agree that rapid-fire rattles the gun a bit. That's why I think 2 normal
attacks or 1 rapid-fire attack is all the character gets. Besides, 2 normal
attacks will on average cause more damage then 1 rapid fire attack.

I was considering an alternative to the autofire/damage rules.

If the same target is "targetted" more then once, then only +1D is added to
the damage. Only 1 to-hit roll would be made. The loss of the rest of the
dice would result in the "spread of fire". I think this would help speed up
combat. I think it would tend to get too bogged down with having to roll
to-hit 4 times every round with a guass rifle. The character would have the
option of 1 target at 7D, 2 targets at 5D, 3 targets (1 at 4D, 1 at 5D) and
4 targets all at 4D.

I'm asking a lot of rules questions lately, because I have been
out-of-the-game for a while (about the time TNE came out, I stopped playing
due to starting a business and getting married) Back then, I was a player,
but now I am trying to start a new game and so I need to be the ref. (which
I have no problem, I've been DM'ing D&D for a long time) but I'm just trying
to recall how we handled things in the old games. The ref would allow us to
take "combat slow" drug before combat. Then we would rapid-fire/reload every
turn. I thought it was a bit extreme, but I was a player, so I didn't mind
that much. Reflecting on the ways that ref handled things, I think many
things didn't 'jive'. From what I could tell, he didn't have any books, he b
ought MT, but never read it. Just used it for character generation. The
rules were basically what he remembered from CT. (So, now you can imagine a
bunch of guys in combat armor carry guass rifles (2 duct-taped together), on
combat-slow, conducting rapid-fire and reload every turn. Of course, with
the adventures he put us on, we kinda needed it. He would send "terminator"
style cyborgs on us that could withstand all kinds of damage.

As for the drug dependancy, our characters from those days didn't need to
worry about dependency, by the time any withdrawels would take effect, we
were either in combat or dead. One of my buddies would come to the game with
several characters already made (so he could jump right back into the
action) I remember one where his guy liked ARL's. Of course, that character
didn't last long. (If he had survived the time he took his ARL on a boarding
mission, we probably would have given him a long walk out the airlock)
(Again, we have to look back at that ref's tendency to not read anything,
and assume that an ARL actually fired big rockets and not 10mm rocket
propelled slugs.)

That's why I like this forum so much. Being able to draw on other people
expertise to answer scientific questions.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:48:50 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Adventures (and Fashion)

Why don't you put those adventures up on a web page? If you need space, I'll
donate a spot from mine. I need stuff to make my page worth visiting...

Now that I think of it, maybe I'll make a place on my site for different
ref's adventures. Just need submissions...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> Dave Nelson wrote:
> The question about fashion got me thinking.   I have two adventures
> written up and in both of them various patrons or businessmen are
described
> as wearing outrageous jumpsuits of one form or another.    Actually, if
> anyone would like a copy of these adventures e-mail me and I'll send them
to
> you (in RTF). They are:
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 22:53:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: re Pushing the Limits

>
> If jumping to empty space is the OTU way, and I'm not *sure* it is,
> then you can substitute something else for the "gravitic hook" that
> anchors the other end of the "artificial wormhole" at that location.
> I'll leave that to the imagination of the readers. ;->

I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was jumping to
some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket universe.  I
still think that a pinched off pocket universe would have some sort of a
gravitic anomoly associated with it and thus the gravitic hook thing
still applies.

My theory about velocity in jumpspace being inversely proportional to the
gravity you're passing through does allow for empty space jumps, but
accuracy is incredibly difficult.  You would need incredibly accurate
timing and would have to kill the jump drives manually.  A couple seconds
off and you'd be light years off course.  Jumping to a gravity body has
the combined benefit of slowing you down (for a better safety margin) as
well as automatically kicking you out of jumpspace near a gravity body.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:57:15 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

David P. Summers writes:

>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>I also think, that if they exist there are quite a number of places where
>>>it wuold be odd that a drop tanks ship wasn't used.
> 
>>Certainly. I agree completely. You'd expect to see jump-6 drop liners
>>jumping between Rhylanor and Mora (via Heroni), for instance. But how many
>>places have you seen described in adventures and other writeups where it is
>>actually ODD that they aren't mentioned?
> 
>Are you saying that it could be that there are jump 6 drop ships travelling
>the main routes and it just wasn't worth mentioning? 

Exactly. When you are writing an adventure set on Vanejen, you don't waste
space on a description of the passenger traffic between Rhylanor and Mora.

>That doesn't work for me at all.
>Even if it doesn't directly affect the PC, the description
>of the backgrond is something that I want to be consistent.

Sure, but there a natural limits. One is the amount of background information
you can write about a game universe. Isn't it equally odd that no description
of the politics of the Darrians mentions the Avalar Consulate, a large,
Zhodani-friendly multi-stellar society about as close to the Darrians as the
Imperium is? Or what about Strend? A TL 15 society with 2 billion inhabitants
lying less than 10 parsecs from Imperial space ought to be a major minor
player in the politics of the Marches, but what have we heard about it? Zip.
Does that work for me? On one level, no. Of course my PCs _ought_ to be able
to look up a hefty library data entry about Strend. On another level I accept
it, because I realize that no game company can put out enough material to
cover a fraction of a sliver of a smidgin of the information that OUGHT to
be available about a game universe. 
  
>It also means that jump-6 couriers aren't as special as the Rebelion
>sourcebook implies.

That would IMO be the case with or without drop tanks, but that's another
debate.

>In fact, I seems to me that jump-6 ships become cheap enough that the j-4
>X-boats do become pointless.  

Actually, no. Drop tanks ships aren't cheaper than their normal counterparts.
They are more expensive. In GT quite a bit more expensive. They can just
carry a greater payload, so the cost per unit (passenger or ton of freight)
goes down. 

>To me it doesn't doesn't fit the idea that a jump-1 or jump-2 ships carrying
>a cargo over long distances (like in the Traveller adventure).

I don't recall any cargoes in _TA_ that was carried that all far between any
worlds that I would consider suitable for drop tank freighters. How about
some examples?

>They should be just ferrying cargo to and from the smallest worlds, they
>can't compete.

They shouldn't be able to compete with large corporate ships either (large
ships are more economic than small ships by any Traveller rules). But they
can, because they exploit the cracks between the corporate structure.

>It should also meant that PC will, if they need to get someplace in a hurry
>have to decide if they want to switch to j-6 drop ships (as opposed
>to switching to a jump-3 or jump-4 liner).

So it should, always assuming that the PCs are in a place with drop liner
service and want to go to another place with drop liner service. So? 

>You also have problem with military situations.  Aside from issues of how
>far you can jump into enemy space, etc. the classic a fleet jumping in and
>having to engage or refuel before it can jump out becomes obsolete. If you
>have drop tanks you don't have to jump in with empty tanks. But this is not
>a trivial part of the background.

No, unfortunately you're right about that, because as anyone who has played
in a TCS campaign can tell you, jumping into a system with empty tanks is
a mark of a really stupid (or desperate) admiral. But drop tanks won't
affect that very much. Since you can only use drop tanks if you have them,
a fleet will either have to carry them along (in which case they don't
benefit from them) or use them, which gives them the benefit ONCE. I don't
say they won't affect doctrine, but they won't be so big a factor as you
believe.
 
>>>It also means that PC should, if they travel on commercial ships, be
>>>leaving from jump stations.
>>
>>Sure. If my players ever needed to get from Mora to Rhylanor and didn't
>>have a ship, they'd be travelling by drop liner. That's IMTU. But what
>>EVIDENCE do you have that they wouldn't do the same in the OTU?
> 
>Well, I don't know about you, but in my games I have had situations
>where the evil bad guys had to stop the PC before they left port.
>With a drop liner you can have a shot at them at the jump gate.

But that was IYTU, wasn't it? Since there are no drop tanks IYTU, that's
not a problem, is it? What _canonical_ adventures do you know of where this
would have been a problem?

>What is more, I don't find treating what the PC are doing in a vacuum to be
>statisfying.  I want their actions to exist in the context of the setting.
>If the setting has drop tanks, then it should reflect that as reasonably
>as possible.  They should be affecting the timeline which _will_ affect my
>PCs.

Give me an example of a canonical timeline datum that ought to have been
affected by the existence of drop tanks, and wasn't. 

>>>Do the PC get hired by General Shipyards because they are rich from them
>>>or by Oberlindes because they are poor?
>>
>>The only adventure I recall where either Oberlindes or GS hired any PCs,
>>Oberlindes did it because they had a ship.
> 
>Right, and the context of why Oberlindes hires them should fit the
>background.  If they are being driven out of business by drop tanks,
>then I expect that to be reflected in what my PC see.

So it would appear that they are not being driven out of business by drop
tanks. That dosen't prove that drop tanks dosen't exist.

>>>Has GS become so powerful that they monopolize shipping to the point that
>>>even Free Traders have to cowtow to them?
>>
>>No. GS got dumped from the drop liner project because of quality control
>>issues.
> 
>OK, so we ask the same question about another corps....

No. It has not.
 
>>>...Is the threat of a Zhodani war gone becuase the Imperium has them?
> 
>>No. Why should it be? If anything, warfare is one of the factors that
>>count against drop stations, since they are more vulnerable to raids.
> 
>Military ships will use them as an adjunct to internal tankage. Letting
>them jump twice before they have to refuel (meaning the Zhodani have to
>protect at least twice as much territory),

The Zhodani already has to protect all their territory. Laying out deep
space fuel depots is very expensive, but it is possible. So the Zhodani
has to guard against a deep strike at every major world. Because almost
the only thing valuable enough to warrant the expense of a deep raid is
the possibility of destroying a major industrial world.

>letting them jump in with full loads (the Imperials don't have to worry
>about running High Guard), they either take the system and fuel at their
>leasure or just jump back out,

They can do that ONCE. Then they either have to wait for their drop tanks
to be ferried into the system, or to go on without them. Drop tanks may
change the tactical picture (except for those of us who have used TCS
before), but they don't change it beyond recognition.

>>Most PCs operate between systems where drop freight service is not
>>available.
> 
>Both the Traveller adventure and Twilights peak had the PC
>operating between decent sized systems and over long distances.

A jump-2 ship like the PCs had in TA is already at a disadvantage against
jump-3 ships when it comes to long-distance freight (By CT rules the per
parsec cost of long-distance freight is lowest for jump-3). For a jump-2
ship reduced to jump-1 like in TP, the disadvantage is even bigger. So
obviously the PCs are operating "between the cracks" of the established
freight service. Whether the competition is huge jump-3 and jump-4
freighters or smaller drop freighters wouldn't affect the adventure.
 
>>Agreed. That's why I want the questions explored. If I could think of
>>a good adventure where a drop liner was an integral factor (and not just
>>a paste-on), I'd like to write it.
> 
>Well, we had previously agreed, I thought, that drop tanks made a
>difference in the setting but that you liked the idea of the setting
>exploring the change in how FTL works and I didn't.

That's a fair assesment.

>Though I think that GT is increasing painting a picture of a setting where
>drop tank ships operating between decent sized world is inconsistent.

Well, we certainly risk getting there unless the subject is explored soon.

>>>They also have the problem in that they firmly establish that jump fuel
>>>can be converted to power and should be usable for other purposes.
>>
>>They're not alone in that. The MT material is pretty explicit on that
>>point without mentioning drop tanks at all.
> 
>Yeah, that is true.  OTOH, if you want to change that, and I agree that
>it is problem (weren't you one of the people trying to covince me of
>that? :-), then they are something you have to lose anyway.

I said that drop tanks proved that all the fuel was used up before the
ship jumped. I also think that it is a bad idea to say that it is all
turned into power. I have a handwave for that which you consider hokey.
That's too bad, but it works for me. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 22:58:57 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

Alan Chambers wrote:

> IMC when a ship misjumps a research group will try to either lease the
> ship, buy it or swap for it. Things can get real interesting when a couple
> of mega corps both want the ship. If the Pc's wait to long the Imperium
> will "borrow" the ship and give them a loaner. The mystery of missjumps
> might well be the key to longer jumps or more fuel efficient travel.
>
> I wonder if Jump 7 is even possible. You can't even do a 7 in a misjump.
> Maybe all ships that hit that part of Jump space are destroyed.
> Alan

yes you can.  You roll 1d for number of dice.  result:2.  Roll 2d and get 5
and 2 resulting in 7 pc jump.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:27:00 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

I've redone my (and Michel V's) 1000 ton Passenger Liner. I still
holds 115 passengers - but I've changed the stateroom configuration
to provide FAR more common space.... including a casino/bar, gym,
beauty parlor, massage parlor, library, children's playroom, small
theatre (with stage), lounge/gameroom, large dining area, and a
small restaurant.

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Faerie.html
Paul@Schirf.com
Comments Welcome...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:28:51 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

Not only OK, but I can get officially licensed to produce them and sell them
to the general public!  Bwwwaaaahhhaaaahhhaaaaaahhhaaaa!!!!

The gun order is a given, you may have to loose a couple pounds to fit in
the armor >:)    Ok ok, so I need to as well.  Nobody's perfect ;)

Jesse




>1. I'm not holding my breath either.
>
>2. Traveller props are ok???!!! I wish to place my PGMP-16 order now please
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #423
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, April 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 424



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Frying keyboards.
Re: Traveller PBeM being considered
Re: re Pushing the Limits
Re: Imperial Fashion
Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: autofire/rapid fire
Granfather
Re: re Pushing the Limits
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?
Re: Armor update (was AHL?)
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Skill Specialization
Re: The Matrix (spoilers)
Re: Imperial Fashions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 17:23:17 -0400
From: Alan Chambers <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Frying keyboards.

>zzztzttzzztzttzzttz <fry>
>
>Darn, I'm gonna have to start wrapping my system in plastic!

>Jim Clem

Put a sheet of glass or plastic between you and your computer. You know,
Like a sneeze guard on a Salad bar. 
Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:08:18 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Traveller PBeM being considered

Dear Folks -

I wrote:
>Huh? Either you mean "the Entropic worlds in the _Darrian_ subsector" or

DOH! Maybe what I _meant_ was the _Querion_ subsector... you knew that,
didn't you? ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 22:40:39 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: re Pushing the Limits

On 04/08/99 at 10:53 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:

>I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was
>jumping to some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket
>universe.  I still think that a pinched off pocket universe would
>have some sort of a gravitic anomoly associated with it and thus the
>gravitic hook thing still applies.

There was also "The Battle of the Two Suns" where a major battle was
supposedly fought in "empty space between to systems"...I could dig
out the reference, but that's too much trouble.  ;-> Personally,
I've always played it that there was a super-jovan or brown dwarf in
that empty hex and the battle was over control of the jump route.

I try to always include IMTU for posts like this, because I believe
there are about as many explanations for these things as there are
Traveller players.  ;-> My personal opinion is that official
supplements shouldn't explain things in *too* much detail so we can
all continue to add our own explanations.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 20:50:00 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
 
> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> Subject: Imperial Fashions
>
> I stumbled across a site that has photos of fashions from lots of
> different designers. The majority of the haute couture stuff strikes me as
> being straight from the Imperial Palace. A lot of very bizarre stuff you
> could never wear unless you had people to dress you. Also a lot of Blade
> Runner style outfits.
>
> What do people wear in YTU?
> 

It depends and it varies.  Because space is big, communication slow, and
the Imperium very diverse, you never know what you'll find.  (I've
briefly addressed other human interstellar states at the end of this
post.)  (This is all, in response to Brannon's question, in my Traveller
universe.)

When you're in a  monocultural high-tech star system, you're likely to
find people dressing similarly all over because of the homogenizing
effect of telecommunications.  

The xboat system also helps spread images from Capital around the
Imperium, but because of the nature of the Imperium -- many independent
worlds with virtually complete local control -- many worlds don't adopt
Capital's styles very much.  There has been change over time on this
issue, of course.  During the Pacification Campaigns, adopting the
Imperial Calendar (and following some other laws) was the bare minimum
required to join the Imperium and get the Marines off your back.  There
was a fair amount of "Imperialization" (with a distinctly Solomani edge)
of former members of the Rule of Man, well beyond what was required by
law.  As a result, many worlds adopted Imperial fashion and aesthetics
just to show that they were getting with the program.  By the time of
Emperor Zhakirov (r. 666-688), however, new member states weren't
expected to do more than the legal requirements.  

Ship personnel, and to a large extent, passengers, tend to dress
pragmatically aboard ship.  Ship personnel often wear their practical
clothes, or dressy versions of them, into startown, but sometimes some
ship personnel go to extremes of color and cut when they can get out of
uniform/sensible clothes.  Of course, what they're wearing may be quite
normal on Efate but completely outre/risque/weird on Aramis -- and vice
versa.

What's pragmatic ship dress?  It tends to be comfortable (my starships
tend to run a little cold, like C.J. Cherryh's), with a lot of pockets,
and flexible enough that the wearer can easily bend and twist while
working on things.  I usually describe it as: form-fitting turtleneck of
cotton jersey-feeling synthetic material, usually with zipper neck;
maybe similar long underpants; loose fitting but not very baggy pants
similar to U.S. BDUs; shoes like leather sneakers, with laces or a press
closure and soft soles, possibly ankle high; a bomber-type jacket of
soft cloth, light weight but warm, with adjustable cuffs and lots of
pockets; a cap, style based on branch of service and worn aboard ship
only if it's really cold.  (Hmm ... sounds a lot like what I wear on
weekends, now that I write it down.)  Jacket and pants will be less
symmetrical if they are of Vilani-inspired design, more symmetrical if
the design leans more toward Solomani tradition.  Color and insignia and
specifics of cut vary depending whether they're government or civilian,
and which government branch or which shipping company.  

Tech level and finances permitting, some crews or some personnel wear TL
14 or 15 vacc suits all the time in space -- remember, you can never be
too close to a vacc suit, especially on a war ship, and at high tech
levels a vacc suit can be as comfortable as longjohns.  

I also have early Imperial fashion in particular and aesthetics in
general change over time, becoming more intricate, decorated,
embellished, and eventually rococco during the Civil War.  Art students
in the Imperium still revere Empress Arbellatra for returning some sense
of order and proportion to Imperial aesthetics.  The simple clean lines
of post-bellum naval and building architecture, and to Imperial uniforms
and palace dress, owe a lot to Arbellatra's preferences for clarity and
stability.  Arbellatra, of course, set this new aesthetic tone for
political reasons -- she wanted to distance herself and her regime (both
as regent and empress) from the chaos of the preceding eighteen years of
civil war.  (Jean-Claude Gaulthier and Jean Giraud have not designed
anything in my Imperium since about 622, though they may have many
customers in the Vargr extents.)

In the other interstellar human states, there may be more or less
variety than in the Imperium.  For example, the Zhodanis have maintained
a pretty homogenous interstellar culture for a long time and Zhodani
architecture, design, fashion, and public art tend to reflect a Zhodani
aesthetic.  The farther from Zhodane one travels, and especially in
occupied areas, the more other aesthetic influences will influence
Zhodani style.  

Solsec closely monitors fashion in the Solomani Confederation, as one
would expect.  Solomani clothing should be modest, practical, modest,
and reflective of the particular Solomani culture of the wearer.  Did we
mention that it should be modest?

Sometime we should have a discussion about Aslan, Hiver, and K'kree
aesthetics, but I think that we'll need some Aslan, Hiver, and K'kree
artists to post ideas on web sites first.  DGP made a start in this
direction, following GDW's lead.  

As to Vargr fashion, you know what they say:  Ask five Vargr fashion
consultants for advice, and you'll get twenty different, but
passionately defended, answers.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 22:54:40 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Upgrading Ships IMTU (re: Pushing the Limits)

On 04/08/99 at 02:51 PM,  "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> said:

>> In theory, yes, you could have your J1 suite pulled, and a J4 suite
>> installed.  You would also have to expand the ship's fuel tankage
>> from 10% to 40% of ship volume and make sure the jump capacitors
>> have been beefed up to hold the increased charge. 

>If this is an absolute requirement for a ship to make the increased
>jum distance, then how does that jump-1 ship with only 10% tankage
>manage to jump up to 36 hexes in a misjump? Somehow, someway, you CAN
>access those higher jump-levels using only the lower amount of fuel.

But not with any sort of control.

>I would say that no matter what, a ship that misjumps suffers some
>kind of damage - overload to the cpacitors, or similar damage. Of
>course, I do NOT claim to be a gearhead. This would be for dramatic
>value, and to possibly trap the characters on a primitive world for
>some time while they make repairs  :)

Oh, I agree, almost all misjumps also damage the ship.  The damage
isn't random either, it is carefully chosen for dramatic effect.
Same with *where* the ship ends up.  Random walk?  Ha!  Ha!  Yeah,
right! ;->

You know, in 20+ years of GMing Traveller I've only had a handful of
misjumps.  My players have respected the idea that misjumps are
almost always more likely to kill you than whoever is chasing you,
so, they have been careful with their jump procedures.  Besides, a
misjump is much too good a dramatic device to leave *just* to
chance.  Guess that puts me in the dramatist camp, huh? 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 99 22:59:06 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

On 04/08/99 at 07:06 PM,  "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com> said:

>James Pearson has built a GCM database for GT.  It contains all 
>advantages, disadvantages, weapons, armor and equipment.

>You can get it at

>http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

>He did a good job.  If you use GCM and play GT, then you should 
>check out.

Woo Hoo! I was just asking about that during the chat last night. ;->

Thanks for the info and thanks to James Pearson.

Eris


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:00:38 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

> > James Pearson has built a GCM database for GT.  It contains all
> > advantages, disadvantages, weapons, armor and equipment.
> > 
> > You can get it at
> > 
> > http://209.39.36.25/gurps/
> > 
> > He did a good job.  If you use GCM and play GT, then you should
> > check out.
> 
> Hate to break the news, bud, but the copy of James' database
> your site links to is as empty as the Spinward Marches' Abyss.
> Nary a weapon, crowbar, skill, or skill category listed in
> it.

Um ... are you sure?  How big was the file you downloaded.  I just 
tested it and it worked fine.  Did you open the file after you 
downloaded it (I know ... stupid question.  Must be an old Tech 
Support flashback).

Anybody else having problems?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 21:02:33 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: autofire/rapid fire

> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au

> BTW, you may also consider inflicting the PC with some sort of drug
> dependancy if they are going to use this as a constant tactic. ;-)

In my Traveller universe, all drugs have side effects (just like real
life).  I don't remember the drug rules, nor have I had to use them, but
it seems to me that each use of any Traveller drug (fast, slow, combat,
medical fast) must be recorded, because you may never get all of these
drugs out of your system.  Prior uses affect the negative DM on the
saving throw to avoid typical problems:  

dependency; 

inability to function normally without the drug (e.g., if the PC got two
actions with slow drug, without slow drug he/she would have only half an
action); 

interference/synergy with effects of other drugs (Medical Officer's
Report:  "Lance Corporal Paskapaa is in hospital today because he broke
bones and tore muscles in his arms and hands during cutlass practice. 
Apparently, the coffee he consumed at breakfast had a synergistic effect
with combat drug remaining in his system from last week's boarding of
the Vargr corsair, and when he slashed, he moved so hard and fast that
his muscles overpowered his bones and broke them.  He is expected to
recover over the next several weeks.");

other effects?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 00:31:26 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Granfather

At 10:53 PM 4/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was jumping to
>some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket universe.  I
>still think that a pinched off pocket universe would have some sort of a
>gravitic anomoly associated with it and thus the gravitic hook thing
>still applies.

Was this a published adventure?  The only thing I know about Grandfather is
the little blurb in GT...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:33:28 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: re Pushing the Limits

Dear Folks -

Joe said:
>I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was jumping to
>some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket universe.

Actually, there are a number of canon references to deep space jumps. What
I can remember off-hand is where the Gyro Cadiz Task Force in _Adventure 3:
Twilight's Peak_ plotted two deep-space jumps in its flight plan (and
conducted one). The new _Behind the Claw_ refers to Norris' fleet jumping
out of the Inthe Pocket into deep space, refuelling from all the tankers
and leaving them to drift, and jumping out again.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:17:03 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

Brannon W. Boren wrote:

> I stumbled across a site that has photos of fashions from lots of
> different designers. The majority of the haute couture stuff strikes me as
> being straight from the Imperial Palace. A lot of very bizarre stuff you
> could never wear unless you had people to dress you. Also a lot of Blade
> Runner style outfits.
>
> What do people wear in YTU?

Lots of hats...

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:19:03 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
>
> > This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does the
> > astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space.
>
> >From an examination given by the Duke of Regina's Preparatory Academy,
> in the course Fundamentals of Starship Operations (usually taken in the
> year before graduation):
>
> The astrogator is looking into a tank in preparation for jump.  Pick the
> answer that most accurately describes what he looking for:
>
> (a) He is looking for his blind spot and will note its coordinates in
> the tank's coordinate system.
>
> (b) He is looking for certain geometric shapes that cannot exist in
> normal space and will direct the ship through the appropriate one.
>
> (c) He won't be able to see anything unless he's been eating melange.
>
> (d) He is looking for several numbers.  He, the captain, and the other
> starmen will each perform a complex calculation with those numbers,
> using only pen and paper, and compare their results.  If all agree, they
> will jump.

(q) All of the above and then some in base21.

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:24:32 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Not only OK, but I can get officially licensed to produce them and sell them
> to the general public!  Bwwwaaaahhhaaaahhhaaaaaahhhaaaa!!!!

Cool, I want a full scale scout for my clubhouse....

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:33:27 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)


>> To be fair though, you can say this about many books, movies and even
>> roleplaying games (and especially Traveller).
>
>Sure, but there is one short story in particular that I'm thinking of.
>If Dick was alive, I'd offer to be his lawyer in the copyright
>infringement suit.


Well, if you could name it I'd be very interested.

>> Where would Terminator have been without Ellison's Outer Limits episode
>> soldier? Large chunks of the film were lifted directly from the TV show.
>> Where would the film version of Blade Runner have been without the play
>> Rossum's Universal Robots?
>
>Never heard or saw those,

Ignorance is bliss ;^)

Seriously though, Harlan Ellison's "Soldier" episode of the Outer Limits was
about two futuristic super-soldiers who end up going back in time and
battling in Anytown U.S.A. It includes a scene of the bad soldier hitting up
a Gun Shop for weapons as well as scenes of the good soldier being observed
and questioned by police and psychiatrists. There are a number of other
similarities as well.

Blade Runner seems to be more in tune with Rossum's Universal Robots rather
than Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. The movie diverges a bit from
Dick's work, which dealt mostly with identity.

> but at least Blade Runner says upfront that its
>based on Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"


As I said, I'd like to know which Dick story the Matrix was "stolen" from. I
have a bit more than passing familiarity with his works and I'd be really
interested to know.

>> In books, Haldeman's Forever War wouldn't have
>> existed without Starship Troopers. Back to movies, the beloved sci-fi
series
>> Star Wars is simply a retooling of the peasant hero myths of many
countries,
>> with a hefty helping of Akira Kurusawa (sp?) tossed in for comic relief.
>> Messiah legends were around long before Herbert wrote the Dune series...
and
>> then there are of course roleplaying games, and the one we discuss on
this
>> mailing list in particular.
>
>Yes. I read Campbell's "Hero Of A Thousand Faces", too.


I haven't. I'm simply an ardent fan and student of mythology and folklore.
My point is that all works are influenced by other works, some more heavily
than others. I note, however, that you deftly sidestepped my comment about
the originality of Traveller.

>There is an underliying logic, but it contains significant inconsistencies.
>Sure, few movies don't.  And they made a laudable attempt to give the
>appearance of consistency, which works a little bit on a superficial level.


<shrug> I guess, if you say so. In the messages I've read that you've
written I haven't really seen you point out any inconsistencies that don't
make massive assumptions about the world of the Matrix.

>> I wouldn't say Willpower exactly, it's something a little less definable.
>> There's also a good deal of mechanics going on behind the scenes as well.
>> After all, why do you think that they had Operators sitting behind the
>> scenes at consoles?
>
>To pull them out of the Matrix.  The operators didn't assist them in
>the actual task of performing an action or bending the rules.


No, that's not quite it from what I saw. Certain things obviously could only
be done from behind the scenes. For example only Operators could guide
around those who were jacked in. Operators apparently also were the ones
with the ability to feed information directly into the brains of the others.

>> There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there.
Really
>> great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a
planned
>> trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.
>
>Didn't know that.  I assume in part 2 we will learn more about the aliens.


I assume that you mean robots? ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:40:00 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Skill Specialization

Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

Eg: Survey (Specific Stellar Body (Such as Gas Giants, Asteroid Belts etc.)
or History (Specific Period).

I thought of  a skill level having a DM of +1, 1 skill level +3 and two
skill levels +5.

I guess you would probably have to have a base skill minimum, e.g. Someone
would Handguns (Revolver) at level 2 (with a DM of +5) would have to know
something about handling automatics. Maybe level 0 in base skill to invest a
full skill level, level 1 for two skill levels.

Any Comments? Questions? Gripes? Slight Headaches?


Michael Hughes

Michael.hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au <mailto:Michael.hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:54:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers)

- -----Original Message-----
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: The Matrix


>I thought more for an advantage to "cheat" and be an overwatch kind of
thing.
> "Uh oh, what's going on?" when the agents institute a change (deja vu) or
>something.  And of course to give u any skills you might need.  :-)


I have no solid proof, but I guess my mind works a little differently
because I spend all of my time playing video games ;^)

For some reason I got the distinct impression that there was something else
going on as well. That one guy coded the introduction to the agents program
(the one with the girl in the red dress), and I got the feeling that they
were somehow creating the links back to the real world (symbolized by the
ringing phones).

>I'd use that, but think it sounds enough like Computer Empathy (at least in
>effect), that'll just use that.


Yeah, I happened to read your posts after I responded to Bloo's, it sounds
like the exact same thing with a different name.

>I'll probably end up using my idea of having willpower to automatically
grant
>outstanding success (or maybe another level "super success" or something,
w/
>enhanced effects w/ willpower at a more difficult level, ala the skyscraper
>jumping).


Whatever works for you. It just seemed like Trinity specifically was very
good at moving rather quickly and defying gravity to some extent. The
impression I got was that some might excel in different areas.


>I like that idea.  The computer on the ship or facility or whatever has
such
>skills in storage and, subject to memory capacity, can d/l that out.  It'd
be
>helpful to know if Trinity still knows how to fly that helicopter...  I'm
>probably leaning on too many and have a psychotic episode.


It depends on the way that you're going to run the game, I guess. In a
highly cinematic game she'd probably remember how to fly the helicopter. Of
course, you can rectify the problem with a two-pronged approach: a character
can have information uploaded into her short term memory very quickly, but
it goes away after a short time (basically adventure to adventure, if you
wanted to cut down on paperwork). On the other hand, skills can be uploaded
into the long term memory of a character, but that takes much longer and
it's very strenuous. This is supported by the fact that Neo, with Computer
Empathy, was able to learn things for a prolonged period while everyone
thought he would give up after a few hours...

>> Skills that rely entirely on rote memorization could be learned in an
>> instant and on the fly, while skills that require more than one
discipline
>
>Or like 0 level in a skill?


That could work too.

>Yeah.  Neo's could either be considered a special case... or just have
>computer empathy (or Matrix Synergy, whatever) to be able to instantly
alter
>rules around a possessing character.


As I said, there was a little more there. Computer Empathy can do that, but
in a roleplaying situation you might want to increment it. For example, Neo
could dodge bullets but he couldn't avoid death until he came to realize
that he was the One. Further, Computer Empathy allowed him (in game terms)
to pick up skills much faster and for prolonged periods (in GURPS terms it
would be something like Eidetic Memory, each Character Point spent is equal
to several).

>I don't think the Operators had to never have been hooked up.  Tank and...
>the big guy, whatever his name was (Hoser?) just *couldn't* enter the
Matrix
>because they were natural born humans, didn't have all the jacks (are the
arm
>and leg ones necessary?  or just the head one?).


I'm just going by the fact that the two Operators *hadn't* been jacked in,
that's why I said it was a handwave ;^)

>> There's great potential for a roleplaying game or campaign in there.
Really
>> great potential. Keep in mind that the Matrix is only part one of a
planned
>> trilogy, so we may learn more about the specifics in later episodes.
>
>Really?  Where did you hear that?


On one of those crappy entertainment news shows I think, and then I read
some indicators on the web. You can check out the movie web site (if you
haven't already) they probably have something on it. Apparently, according
to this news show, the second movie got the green light as soon as the
opening gross came in.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 03:05:07 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brannon W. Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 7:15 PM
Subject: Imperial Fashions


>I stumbled across a site that has photos of fashions from lots of
>different designers. The majority of the haute couture stuff strikes me as
>being straight from the Imperial Palace. A lot of very bizarre stuff you
>could never wear unless you had people to dress you. Also a lot of Blade
>Runner style outfits.
>
>What do people wear in YTU?


All kinds of stuff, geneered fungi (in designer colors), all manner of
synthetic cloth and fabric. Scarves made of vidcloth double as computer
monitors, while smart fabrics can change shape and rigidity at the flick of
a switch.

(Yes, I read alot of Sterling)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #424
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, April 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 425



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump Limits
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
re Skill Specialization
Re: Granfather
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Skill Specialization
Re: Deckplans
Jumping to empty space
Re: Mora info in Far Trader
Re: Jump Limits
Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Misjumps
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
RE: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
RE:  GCM Traveller Database
RE: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)
Black Globes
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:26:50 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

The new (and possible interesting stuff) is at the bottom.

>>Basically, every starship ever to jump in Traveller was WAY inside the
>>really big and massive object known as the milky way. If you cannot
>>jump
>>within 10 diameters of the milky way then nobody can jump PERIOD.
>>
>>As Traveller canon seem to indicate that ships DO jump from time to
>>time
>>the 10 x diameter, 100 x diameter rules must be wrong. ;-)

>What object called the milky way?  There is no such thing.  There is a
>grouping of individual stars which orbit a common center.  At that
>common center is (apparently) a very large black hole.  This grouping of
>stars is labeled the milky way.  I don't need to get 100 diameters away
>from the milky way since there is no such thing except as a label on
>some pieces of paper.  As long as I am 100d away from the closest of
>these stars I am at least 100d away from all of them.
>Now, there may well be a certain amount of "background" gravitation for
>the milky way galaxy, which would diminish radically at 100d away from
>the major grouping.  In fact, this may be the way to get higher Jump
>numbers.

My post tried to show the absurdity of defining something based on diamter
only. You argue that the milky way is not an object but empty space with
mass points here and there. The same could of course be said about stars:
mostly vacuum and here and there an electron or a nucleus. The problem my
analogy tried to showcase was basically that you couldn't base a physical
principle on size alone as size is not so much a physical quantity as a
sociological one. We consider galaxies to be empty space with stars but we
consider stars to be full of stuff mainly because qwe live INSIDE a galaxy
and we cannot live inside a star or planet. Cosmologists generally consider
galaxies or even groups of galaxies as objects.

>Suppose for argument that Jump limits (the 100d limit dicated in every
>Traveller ruleset so far) are connected with the tidal forces that have
>been discussed previously [this is the best explanation I have seen so
>far IMHO].  Each and every object in the universe deforms space-time
>near it.  Two objects fairly near each other will deform space-time more
>(and more complexly) than a single object.  Thus, in the area of Known
>Space, there is a fairly constant "background" curvature of space-time.
>This curvature will decrease in rifts, but will increase along mains,
>but not very much either way (since we are dealing with the aggragate
>gravitation of a galaxy as well as individual stars).  This background
>curvature is (adventure idea) just beginning to be theorized about in
>relation to Jump during the early 1100s.  Thus this will not affect Jump
>in CT, MT, or TNE (except perhaps in the Regency), T4, or GT (perhaps
>just the first glimmerings).
<snip>

I agree with you about tidal forces being the answer that fits the original
100d rule best and has some scientific validity. Tidal force however drops
off so fast (1/r^3 compared to gravitys 1/r^2) that I cannot agree with you
about there being any appreciable differences between rifts and arms.
I have my own handwave about the tidal force importance that might affect
how Traveller is played:
There are IMHO two problems about jump that I find hard to accept/handwave
namely:

1: Will ships that jump have the same velocity upon jump exit? If that is
the case that would have to be taken into account by pilots as stars have
different velocities that have to be matched (this is more of a problem in
TNE where ships delta-V are reasonably restricted).

2: Potential energy: Ships that jump from one place to another would have
different potential energy before and after a jump which basically means
that you could get energy for free. A clear break with conservation laws
(but so is floorfields, gravthrust etc as well).

My solution/handwave to number 2 is: A ship is not a point mass but has a
certain size so the potential energy at the nose of a ship is different
than the rear if pointing away from a planet. The astrogators main job is
to precalculate the potential energy at the start and destination to be
able to account for the energy differeance with the jumpdrive. This is a
fairly difficult thing as mass objects contribution to potential energy
falls of at 1/r meaning that distant objects have a higher pot energy
influence than gravity influence. This fiddling/guessing/modelling about
potential energy (which cannot be directly measured) as mainly what the
astrogator does. The main impact this handwave would have on jumping is
that the larger the ship the harder it would be to jump or rather the
further from the planet/star one would need to go.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:27:52 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

>the 10/100 rules apply to a UNIFORM DENSITY BODY.  The Milky Way and star
>systems are FAR from uniformly distributed.

Neither is the moon, the earth, the gasgiants, stars, spaceship for that
matter. It all depends on what scale you are looking at.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:35:58 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

>That's a lotta dice rolling. IIRC, the rules (probably TNE and CT which
>I usually remember best) say roll one d6 for direction, and then 1d6 *
>d6 for distance, so it is in a straight line.
>
>In fact, that makes sense, since all other jumps, mis or otherwise are
>in a stright line.

The only problem I have with that is that what systems you'd end up
arriving in depends on the hexgrid which at least IMTU is an arbitrary
mapping thing.

Those TMLers that consider the hexmaps to be representation of jumpspace
itself (stating that the 2D nature of the maps comes from jump theory and
that the distances between stars on the maps only very roughly corresponds
to actual physical normal space distances) have an advantage here: Due to
jumpspace quantum nature or whatever the hex representation of systems make
certain nearby systems impossible to misjump to and this is an effect of
jump theory itself.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 02:31:05 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: re Skill Specialization

On 04/09/99 at 04:40 PM,  "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> said:

>Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

<snip>

I'm afraid I didn't completely follow your example, but I like the
idea.  Isn't this sort of what Skill Clusters are all about?
Expanding on that idea...

Take a cluster where you have put 2 points in Auto Pistol, the first
in any, the second specialized in the Glock, and all the
sibling-skills get one point lower giving them 0 levels.

 Handgun
   Auto Pistol-1
     9mm Glock-2
   Body Pistol-0
   Revolver-0
   Snub Pistol-0
    
Can't say I'm too enamored of this though, if the costs on each
level are equal what's to stop you from just putting points in the
highest one you can (all in Auto Pistol, forex).  Frankly, I really
don't want to get into different point costs for different levels.

Nice idea if you can make it work, elegantly, though.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:43:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Granfather

>>I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was jumping to
>>some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket universe.  I
>>still think that a pinched off pocket universe would have some sort of a
>>gravitic anomoly associated with it and thus the gravitic hook thing
>>still applies.
>

Twilights peak mention that Gyro Cadiz and friends made several jumps to
empty space (which IMO was phrased as something scary for the crew). I
think jumps to empty space is Canon but that there should be rules that
make jumping to/from empty space harder ie more likely to produce misjumps.
The main reason for this I think comes from the numerous mentions of
"mains". Why consider mains important if a J1 ship with extra fuel can
bridge a 2 paresc gap without problem?

Either disallow deepspace jumps (cool, nobody knows what's really out there
but sligthly non-canon) or make deepspace jumps harder.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 01:41:07 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Skill Specialization

> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>

> Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

Sure, all of us have I would think, as have Loren Wiseman and Marc
Miller.  Compare the skills in Book 1: Characters and Combat with those
of Book 4: Mercenary and Book 5: High Guard.  There is a much higher
level of specialization reflected in the later books.  

The issue is balance, of course.  Where does specialization become
atomization, at which point the skill required for a task is so specific
that no one will have it?  "I'll use the telephone."  "What's your skill
level in Communications, wire based, analog, TL 5-8?"  "Uh, I only have
Commo-3."  "OK, it's a formidable task."  

On the other hand, a skill can be read so broadly as to allow the
unreasonable to occur:  "Who's at the helm [of the 1,000,000 dt Ancient
vessel the PCs are stealing]?"  "Me!"  "What skills are you applying?" 
"Pilot-1."  "OK, it's a difficult task."  

I tend not to specialize skills any more than Megatraveller does for
PCs, unless they want to be in a specific campaign setting where it
would make sense and enhance the game.  For example, in a medical
campaign, the characters might all have med-3 or med-4, but then they
would have specializations in trauma, infectious diseases, etc.  If
they're faced with a problem outside their specialty, they can probably
figure it out, but it might take longer than the specialist, use
resources less efficiently, etc.  

I handle NPC skills as needed by the storyline.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 06:33:44
From: Frank Wallen <mrdim@Excell.Net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

At 03:26 PM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:52:05 -0400 
>From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
>Subject: Deckplans
>
>What programs do most people use for doing deckplans?  I have a PC and
>trying to figure out the best program for doing this.
>

Since I can't afford the high-quality graphics programs (nor do I have the
time to learn how to use them), currently I use Word. This makes it easy
for me to inlude the drawings into my adventure documents, and to edit them
as needed. When I need to convert them to a regular graphic file (GIF, JPG,
etc.), I copy the drawing into the clipboard and paste it into my 'cheapie'
graphics progam (Paint Shop Pro). The drawings are a little crude,
sometimes, but they're effective enough for running my game.

I had attempted, once, on using AutoCAD, but it required I spend a lot of
time on setting up the drawing (i.e., line types). If I were an authentic
draftsman, I'm sure I would be more effective. I plan to try again in the
future, though.

*********************************************************************
* Frank Wallen                 * 'In Paris they simply stared when  *
* (mailto:mrdim@excell.net)    * I spoke to them in French; I never *
* Reft Sector Islands at:      * did succeed in making those idiots *
* http://www.excell.net/mrdim/ * understand their language.'        *
*                              *            - Mark Twain            *
*********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:22:50 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Jumping to empty space

I've always held that you can jump to anywhere, so long as there's no 100D
tidal flux to stop you.

We got to see the results first-hand in The Traveller Adventure, when a
disastrous astrogation fumble took us into deep space. Fortunately we were
travelling prepared for a second jump (Bladders). But if we'd not been...
pray for a comet within maneuver/life support distance.

The Battle of 2 Suns was fought over a Zhodani forward base in deep space -
it may or may not have been on an asteroid. But there are other references
to jumping to deep space. None are conclusive one way or the other.

I allow it. You? Whatever you like.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 03:27:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Mora info in Far Trader

At 07:42 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On page 135, Mora has a trade classification of cx. What the heck 
>is that? A misprint or just not supposed to be there.

Sector Capital.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:25:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
>
> <<<<<
> Actually, if you sit down and do some calculations, you'll find that
> this is wrong. 
>
> First thing, the "distance" is not fixed, but in terms of planetary
> *diameter*. Therefore, the limit must depend on *something* that varies
> with the *size* of the planet. 
>
> The default Traveller planet, be it size 1 or size A has the same
> density as Earth. So, since they have uniform density, it turns out
> that their mass depends on their diameter.
>
> Size    dia     mass
> - ----  ----    -------
> 1       1/7     (1/7)^3
> 2       2/7     (2/7)^3 
> 3       3/7     (3/7)^3
> 4       4/7     (4/7)^3
> 5       5/7     (6/7)^3
> 6       6/7     (6/7)^3 
> 7       1       1
> 8       8/7     (8/7)^3
> 9       9/7     (9/7)^3
> A       10/7    (10/7)^3
>
> So the mass goes up as the cube of the diameter. But we need something
> that goes up *linearly* with diameter.
>
> Acceleration due to gravity goes as mass (thus 3rd power), but also
> *drops* as the square root of distance (1/2 power). Thus acceleration
> varies as the 3/2 power of diameter of a fixed density body. So that's
> no good.
>
> The rate at which acceleration changes (aka tidal force, aka gravity
> gradient, aka curvature of space) varies as the *third* root of
> distance. and directly as mass. So that gives a variance of 3/3 or 1
> with respect to diameter of a fixed density body. That matches. 
>>>>>>
>
> Please could you explain this in a little more detail? 

I'm not sure how much more *can* be explained. I did an analysis
similar to the above and found that one thing that *did* vary at the
proper rate was tidal force. That is, the value at 100 diameters for
any size *Traveller* planet (but not GG or Star) was the same for all
sizes.

> What calculations should I do?

Basicly, you can calculate "tidal force" at a given distance with the
formula:

	X=GM/R^3

X= "tidal force"
G= Newton's gravitational constant
M= mass of planet
R= distance from center of planet

> I suspect you are right but I am having trouble following the argument.
>
> Why is the jump limit for a 3 solar mass black hole different from a 3 solar
> mass star, using your method?

The limit for the black hole is the same distance in *meters* as the
limit for the star. But in *diameters* it's a lot different. The
*denser* the object, the more diameters. 

So the limit for planets works out t about 100 diameters. Gas giants
and normal stars are less dense than planets, so the limit is fewer
diameters. Black holes, white dwarfs, and even nickel/iron asteroids
are a lot *denser than tpical planets, so the limit for them is going
to be *more* than 100 diameters. 

I'm falling asleep from the painkillers right now. I'll try to re-run
my old calculations again and give you formulas and numbers later. I
think two formulas will do. One for figuring the limit for a given
mass, the other for a given density and size.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:41:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>>> BTW, one detail the John W. Campbell pointed out back in the 60s.
>> Barring some major breaktrough, electric cars will not be able to spare
>> the power to run electrical heaters, and they won't produce enough
>> "waste heat" to drive a normal heater (or air conditioner for that
>> matter). 
>
> Hm...ideally, you could probably create a dramatically more efficient
> heater by using a heat pump (a reversed air conditioning unit).  I
> assume there's some technical reason this isn't normally practical,
> since it could allow a 5-10x increase in the efficiency of a heater
> (with the side effect of extremely _cold_ air being produced on the
> outside).

It's not a matter of *efficiency*. It's a matter of *limited* available
power. Heating and coooling, even using heat pumps, use *huge* amounts
of power. You can't *afford* the extra battery mass required (not with
any battery we are likely to see).

So you use the heat driven accessories. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:46:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

In mail you write:

> What method do people use to determine what system a misjump lands you in?  I
> guess the 1d6 d6 parsec jump tells you how far, but it doesn't help much for
> what system you actually wind up in.
>
> I was thinking of doing misjump as a random-walk pattern -- roll 1d for each 
> of
> distance and direction, 6 times.  Not sure exactly how the average on that
> compares to avg for standard misjump, but at least it makes a nice even
> pattern, not one which is spread out along certain lines or something.

The standard method (from the older rules) was to roll a die for the
direction (1-6). Then throw a die for the *number* of dice to roll for
distance. Then roll that many dice for distance.

I think there was another die roll for the number of hexes "sideways"
from the line you just determined. 

There's a "random hex selection" trick used for something else in
several of the old CT modules (for generating star locations as a ship
explores "unknown" territory) that assigns 2 digit numbers [1-6][1-6]
to a pattern of hexes 6 hexes across. I wonder if something like that
could be done for misjumps, just to make them a bit more random. 

If I design it, I'll have to borrow a friend's scanner to scan the
resulting diagram. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:05:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps

In mail you write:

> IMC when a ship misjumps a research group will try to either lease the
> ship, buy it or swap for it. Things can get real interesting when a couple
> of mega corps both want the ship. If the Pc's wait to long the Imperium
> will "borrow" the ship and give them a loaner. The mystery of missjumps
> might well be the key to longer jumps or more fuel efficient travel. 
>
> I wonder if Jump 7 is even possible. You can't even do a 7 in a misjump.
> Maybe all ships that hit that part of Jump space are destroyed.

Huh? Sure you can. Remember you roll 1 die to determine *how many* dice
to roll for distance. So if that die comes up anything but 1, you are
rolling 2 or more dice for distance. Which means that 7 *is* possible.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:58:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

I'm too tired to work out the figures right now, but the frequency
distribution for misjumps *doesn't* match a random walk. In fact, I
*think* there's a bias *away* from the center.

But to get the exact distribution, I have to work out the distributions
for rolling 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 dice... not tonight!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:57:00 -0400 
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

The problem I see is you don't have enough cargo space.  Unless they changed
it in GT, each High Passenger gets 1ton cargo. Middle passengers get .5ton
and low berth get .25ton if I remember correctly. Plus you've got to have
some space for crew's cargo. Other than that, it looks like a good design.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul Schirf [mailto:pc@PerkWorks.com]
		Sent:	Friday, April 09, 1999 2:27 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

		I've redone my (and Michel V's) 1000 ton Passenger Liner. I
still
		holds 115 passengers - but I've changed the stateroom
configuration
		to provide FAR more common space.... including a casino/bar,
gym,
		beauty parlor, massage parlor, library, children's playroom,
small
		theatre (with stage), lounge/gameroom, large dining area,
and a
		small restaurant.

		http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Faerie.html
		Paul@Schirf.com
		Comments Welcome...
		

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:24:45 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

Clint Fishback wrote:
>The problem I see is you don't have enough cargo space.  Unless they
changed
>it in GT, each High Passenger gets 1ton cargo. Middle passengers get .5ton
>and low berth get .25ton if I remember correctly. Plus you've got to have
>some space for crew's cargo. Other than that, it looks like a good design.


Under what system?  There was no such cargo requirement under High Guard.

http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Faerie.html
Paul@Schirf.com
Comments Welcome...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:31:38 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: RE:  GCM Traveller Database

I've also posted the DB on my site (see sig).  It's in the "Links" section.  I hope 
you like it.  Right now its just the Basic GT stuff, but I'll probably add Star 
Mercs, Aliens, etc. as I go along.

I'd welcome submissions!  Let me know what you want to include and I'll do it.


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:36:52 -0400 
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

I know that was under MegaTraveller and Gurps. I could have sworn in CT also
it mentioned it.  Of course, they don't mention it in the ship construction
part.  It is usually under space travel where it tells the different types
of passage and crew positions.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul Schirf [mailto:pc@perkworks.com]
		Sent:	Friday, April 09, 1999 11:25 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

		Clint Fishback wrote:
		>The problem I see is you don't have enough cargo space.
Unless they
		changed
		>it in GT, each High Passenger gets 1ton cargo. Middle
passengers get .5ton
		>and low berth get .25ton if I remember correctly. Plus
you've got to have
		>some space for crew's cargo. Other than that, it looks like
a good design.


		Under what system?  There was no such cargo requirement
under High Guard.

		http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Faerie.html
		Paul@Schirf.com
		Comments Welcome...


		

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:47:42 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

>Under what system?  There was no such cargo requirement under High Guard.
>
>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Faerie.html
>Paul@Schirf.com
>Comments Welcome...

High Guard didn't have rules for commercial ships such a number of
stewards, medics, cargo per passneger etc. I think Low and mid passage
require 100 kg each and High passage require 1 dTon.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:56:12 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)

At 10:40 PM 4/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On 04/08/99 at 10:53 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:
>
>
>I try to always include IMTU for posts like this, because I believe
>there are about as many explanations for these things as there are
>Traveller players.  ;-> My personal opinion is that official
>supplements shouldn't explain things in *too* much detail so we can
>all continue to add our own explanations.
>
>Eris
>-- 

        Hello, Eris!
        I could not agree more.  I think one of the best things about the
LBBs was that they were a great framework, but had enough airflow that it
wouldn't choke me.  Every TU will be a little bit different, or at least I
hope so...  That's part of the point of an RPG, I think.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 06:13:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Black Globes

In my copy of TNE, the Screens skill lists four cas-
cades, Sandcasters, Nuclear Dampers, Meson Screens, and
Black Globes. The first three get explained in the 
space combat section, but I couldn't find so much as a
hint as to what Black Globes block. I don't have FF&S1,
so could someone please tell me?

===

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:13:56 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

At 08:24 AM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Clint Fishback wrote:
>>The problem I see is you don't have enough cargo space.  Unless they
>changed
>>it in GT, each High Passenger gets 1ton cargo. Middle passengers get .5ton
>>and low berth get .25ton if I remember correctly. Plus you've got to have
>>some space for crew's cargo. Other than that, it looks like a good design.
>
>
>Under what system?  There was no such cargo requirement under High Guard.
>
>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Faerie.html
>Paul@Schirf.com
>Comments Welcome...
>
        Um, Paul....  CT says in the section on starship operations where it
is discussing the different passenger classes what baggage they can take.
That is why the Faerie has such a large cargo hold in the design...  mostly
High passengers....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #425
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 426



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Jumping to empty space
Re: Black Globes
Government Type "M"
Re: Deckplans
Re: Traveller PBeM being considered
Re: Traveller PBeM being considered
RE: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Misjumps into empty hexes
Re: Black Globes
Re: Government Type "M"
Re: Armor update (was AHL?)
Something interesting to participate in
Re: Astrogators
Re: Imperial Fashion
Re: Black Globes
Re: Astrogators
World Builder Deluxe V4.1
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Mora info in Far Trader
Re: fuel cells/power limits
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:17:05 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

At 01:46 AM 4/9/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>There's a "random hex selection" trick used for something else in
>several of the old CT modules (for generating star locations as a ship
>explores "unknown" territory) that assigns 2 digit numbers [1-6][1-6]
>to a pattern of hexes 6 hexes across. I wonder if something like that
>could be done for misjumps, just to make them a bit more random. 
>
>If I design it, I'll have to borrow a friend's scanner to scan the
>resulting diagram. :-)
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

        Leonard:

                That is the Aslan Alien Module (AM#?).  I have it, if you
would like to see that chart and the assoc rules....


        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:27:27 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

It struck me as somewhat strange that humans were used as a power source.
The way they had it set up, it was made to seem as though people were some
type of perpetual motion machines (feed the living the dead, with
apparently no loss of efficiency).

Not to mention the fact that the 'bots apparently had fusion power (or so
it was said in the movie), and this was somehow less preferrable than
supporting billions of humans for their waste heat.

What I would like to know: How long has it been the 1990s in the Matrix,
anyway? Does time pass? Was Neo born in the 1990s and age to
thirty-something in the 1990s? If so, what happens when it becomes the
mid-21st century in the Matrix. Do robots revolt in the virtual reality,
and do we get a Matrix within the Matrix?

ObTrav: With the advent of GURPS Traveller, it has now become possible to
integrate the setting of GURPS Reign of Steel into the Traveller universe
with a minimum of difficulty. Aside from TNE campaigns, has anyone run a
"robots gone rogue" campaign in a Traveller game? If so, what was the
scenario?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:25:34 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Jumping to empty space

At 11:22 AM 4/9/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I've always held that you can jump to anywhere, so long as there's no 100D
>tidal flux to stop you.
>
>We got to see the results first-hand in The Traveller Adventure, when a
>disastrous astrogation fumble took us into deep space. Fortunately we were
>travelling prepared for a second jump (Bladders). But if we'd not been...
>pray for a comet within maneuver/life support distance.
>
>The Battle of 2 Suns was fought over a Zhodani forward base in deep space -
>it may or may not have been on an asteroid. But there are other references
>to jumping to deep space. None are conclusive one way or the other.
>
>I allow it. You? Whatever you like.
>
>MJD
>
        Right now, IMTU PBEM, the players *must* conduct a deep-space jump
and refueling...  Two ships crossing a JP2 distance and one ship is only JP1
with minimum tankage...  so, the second ship is having its cargo bay
partitioned to hold enough fuel to function as a tanker for the second.

        I personally don't see what the problem is with an "empty-hex jump".
It causes artificial rifts if you make it problematic and will severely
retard exploration....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:29:44 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Black Globes

At 06:13 AM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>In my copy of TNE, the Screens skill lists four cas-
>cades, Sandcasters, Nuclear Dampers, Meson Screens, and
>Black Globes. The first three get explained in the 
>space combat section, but I couldn't find so much as a
>hint as to what Black Globes block. I don't have FF&S1,
>so could someone please tell me?
>
>===
        BG's block *every thing*.  They are a 100% energy sink...  that
energy is shunted into capacitors which need to be bled off...  Note that it
works both ways...  while the BG is on, the Enemy can't fire in, but you
can't maneuver or fire out.  The usually solution is to "flicker" the BG to
allow you to fire out (rather like firing a nose-mounted machine gun through
a propeller) but massively hinder thier ability to hit you.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:27:34 -0400
From: "Will Richards" <RichardW@jwfc.js.mil>
Subject: Government Type "M"

Off the wall Trivia question:

   Is there such a thing as Government Code "M" 
   If so what is it?


:)
  Will

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:39:38 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Clint Fishback wrote:

>What programs do most people use for doing deckplans?  I have a PC and
>trying to figure out the best program for doing this.

Depends on how much money you want to spend. I would suggest, if you can
afford one of them, either Adobe Illustrator or Macromedia Freehand. My
personal preference is the former, although this is mostly due to exposure
to the application (I use it at work). Both are moderately easy-to-use,
vector-based illustration programs.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:15:50 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller PBeM being considered

In a message dated 4/8/99 11:43:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< Dear Folks -
 
 I wrote:
 >Huh? Either you mean "the Entropic worlds in the _Darrian_ subsector" or
 
 DOH! Maybe what I _meant_ was the _Querion_ subsector... you knew that,
 didn't you? ;-) >>


LOL, yep. I knew that. Seems we both slipped just a little bit. :) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:11:27 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller PBeM being considered

In a message dated 4/8/99 8:34:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes:

<< Dear Folks -
 
 SciFiFan56@aol.com posted:
 >Play will focus on the Entropic Worlds
 >in the Vilis subsector of the Spinward Marches in 1120.
 
 Huh? Either you mean "the Entropic worlds in the _Darrian_ subsector" or
 "the Entropic worlds _AND_ the Vilis subsector". >>

LOL, Actually we are both wrong, the Entropic Worlds are in the Querion 
Sector. I see that this group is VERY serious about their Traveller...which 
is good. My kind of people to say the least. :) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:23:50 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Anthony Jackson writes:
"What method do people use to determine what system a misjump 
lands you in?  I guess the 1d6 d6 parsec jump tells you how 
far, but it doesn't help much for what system you actually 
wind up in."

	IMTU I roll 1D x 1D for distance, starting by moving 
	coreward. I then determine the circumference of a 
	circle at that radius around the point of origin (which
	is conveniently always a multiple of 6) and randomly
	determine by appropriate dice rolls the hex misjumped to.

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:13:57 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

In a message dated 4/8/99 9:41:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
warlock@imagin.net writes:

<< Mr. Bont hath spake unto us:
 > 
 > James Pearson has built a GCM database for GT.  It contains all
 > advantages, disadvantages, weapons, armor and equipment.
 > 
 > You can get it at
 > 
 > http://209.39.36.25/gurps/
 > 
 > He did a good job.  If you use GCM and play GT, then you should
 > check out.
 
 Hate to break the news, bud, but the copy of James' database
 your site links to is as empty as the Spinward Marches' Abyss.
 Nary a weapon, crowbar, skill, or skill category listed in
 it.
  >>
Amen, I was sorely disappointed. It would have been a tremendous asset in my 
new exploration of GURPS Traveller. I am also having problems with the 
Astrogator software, hopefully I will be able to figure it out in time to use 
it in my campaign - looks sooooooo promising. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:36:14 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Misjumps into empty hexes

Joseph Kimball writes:
<clipped>
"I am a bit worried about the "gravitic hook" idea, since it 
implies that you can only Jump to a large mass, and not to 
empty space.  It seemed clear to me from the things the Marc 
has said on this list that you can Jump to empty places that 
are nowhere near the 100d limit of anything.  Perhaps I am 
misunderstanding what you mean by a "gravitic hook" though.  
Your ideas do add quite a bit of flavor, I just feel 
uncomfortable about the hook idea."

	I have always allowed ships to jump to or from empty
	hexes, but I then penalize the navigation roll because
	of the added difficulty of plotting a jump without any
	nearby large masses to anchor things. Misjumps into
	empty hexes do not have to be death sentences. Ships 
	have been jumping around the Imperium for a long time:
	perhaps with a little searching the party might find a
	long-lost ship with enough fuel to allow a jump to 
	safety (it might be a larger ship that needed more fuel
	than it had to jump, then you only have to come up with
	a reason that the dead crew did not use up all the fuel
	trying to stay alive as long as possible... could be a
	plot hook). Of course, a wandering comet might also be
	found. Can a desparate crew cut off part of a ship to
	reduce tonnage, thereby allowing a jump-1 on less fuel?
	Anybody see a movie called "Flight of the Phoenix"?

Peez (AKA Ian)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes

>         BG's block *every thing*.  They are a 100%
> energy sink...  that
> energy is shunted into capacitors which need to be
> bled off...  Note that it
> works both ways...  while the BG is on, the Enemy
> can't fire in, but you
> can't maneuver or fire out.  The usually solution is
> to "flicker" the BG to
> allow you to fire out (rather like firing a
> nose-mounted machine gun through
> a propeller) but massively hinder thier ability to
> hit you.
> 
Interesting. How much tonnage do these take up?
===

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

- --- Will Richards <RichardW@jwfc.js.mil> wrote:
> Off the wall Trivia question:
> 
>    Is there such a thing as Government Code "M" 
>    If so what is it?
> 
Orwell's 1984. 

===

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:40:17 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

At 11:24 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
>> Not only OK, but I can get officially licensed to produce them and sell them
>> to the general public!  Bwwwaaaahhhaaaahhhaaaaaahhhaaaa!!!!
>
>Cool, I want a full scale scout for my clubhouse....

I can imagine the comments I'd get if I went to one of the local custom
home builders with a copy of the Type S or Type T plans in hand and told
them that was what I wanted...Now the Broadsword on the other hand, might
make a really cool marketing ploy for a small apartment house or office
building.  Imagine your prospective client's face when he arrives at your
brand new, straight from the builder, Type C merc Cruiser with your
business sign hanging outside:  Law Offices of...

(It is too slow at work this morning...)

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:48:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Something interesting to participate in

Go to www.nitcentral.com/discus
Scroll down and click on Sci-Fi Novels
Click on The Reader's Sink
Scroll down and click on The Tough Guide to SF Land

The rest will be explained there.

===

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:49:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Astrogators

scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
> 
> Sorry Bruce - you've misunderstood the rules reference.  The bridge does
> not HAVE an astrogator, the bridge is designed to help SPOT the astrogator!
> The astrogator is basically a really large Everglades Alligator.  So large
> as to be of astronomic proportions, in fact.

SPPPPEEEEEEWEWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!	

Damn!! That was fresh coffee, too!!

TML:35 Keyboards:0  the rout contines...

- ------
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 10:01:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 

> Solsec closely monitors fashion in the Solomani Confederation, as one
> would expect.  Solomani clothing should be modest, practical, modest,
> and reflective of the particular Solomani culture of the wearer.  Did we
> mention that it should be modest?

"SVEEMVEAR, very nice!!!" :-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 14:06:31 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Black Globes

At 07:43 AM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>         BG's block *every thing*.  They are a 100%
>> energy sink...  that
>> energy is shunted into capacitors which need to be
>> bled off...  Note that it
>> works both ways...  while the BG is on, the Enemy
>> can't fire in, but you
>> can't maneuver or fire out.  The usually solution is
>> to "flicker" the BG to
>> allow you to fire out (rather like firing a
>> nose-mounted machine gun through
>> a propeller) but massively hinder thier ability to
>> hit you.
>> 
>Interesting. How much tonnage do these take up?
>===
>
        I don't have my copy of High Guard with me at work, but it varies by
USP....  also, they are all TL16+ devices....  Usually an Ancient artifact.

        I'll post the table when I get home tonight or tomorrow.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:24:02 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogators

At 09:49 AM 4/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry Bruce - you've misunderstood the rules reference.  The bridge does
>> not HAVE an astrogator, the bridge is designed to help SPOT the astrogator!
>> The astrogator is basically a really large Everglades Alligator.  So large
>> as to be of astronomic proportions, in fact.
>
>SPPPPEEEEEEWEWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!	
>
>Damn!! That was fresh coffee, too!!
>
>TML:35 Keyboards:0  the rout contines...
>

First rule of reading the TML, dispose of all food and drink and return tray
tables to there upright position BEFORE inniating email download.

Interesting traveller plot.  A robotics scientist who loves old horror
motives who lives alone in an old looking house over looking a dark lonely
lake.  Perhaps his house hold 'staff' IS harmless...many be not...

Preditor = Butler
Alien = Maid
Nestlie = life gaurd
Terminator = handy man
Fredie = Salid chief.
Hannable Lecter = Main dish cook.
Godzilla = Gardener
Chimax = Lawn mower/garden tracter
The Car = Cheuffer

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:36:55 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: World Builder Deluxe V4.1

World Builder Deluxe Version 4.1 has been released. The new version
addresses several bugs that were discovered in V4.0 post release.

The fixes are detailed as follows:-

1) Random World/System/Sector Generation can now only produce a Population
Multiplier in the range of 1-9.

2) The program no longer has occasional 'Out of Memory' errors.

3) Text files and Data file produced with the same random seed in Sector
Wide System Generation now have the same data.

4) The program no longer creates an error message when using HTML file
format for Sector Wide System Generation.


5) List boxes for Load UWP and 'Generate World Details for Entire System' no
longer remain on screen if another function is selected.

The program also introduces a new feature. The user can now select from two
input methods. 1) The standard List Box method; or 2) The new Text Box
method which is much more intuative.

The new program can be downloaded from the following address:-

http://www.cozmos-cosmos.com/~sferris/Traveller_World_Builder_Deluxe.zip

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:41:33 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

> From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
> Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
> 
> Clint Fishback wrote:
> >The problem I see is you don't have enough cargo space.  Unless they
> changed
> >it in GT, each High Passenger gets 1ton cargo. Middle passengers get .5ton
> >and low berth get .25ton if I remember correctly. Plus you've got to have
> >some space for crew's cargo. Other than that, it looks like a good design.
> 
> 
> Under what system?  There was no such cargo requirement under High Guard.

"High Passage .... There is a baggage allowance of up to 1,000
kilograms.
"Middle Passage ....  Baggage totalling 100 kilograms is allowed.
"Working Passage .... Baggage totalling 1,000 kilograms is allowed.
"Low Passage ....  Low Passage costs Cr1,000 and includes a baggage
allowance of 10 kilograms."

Book 2, Starships, at 4-5 (2d ed.).  Baggage allowances are not in
displacement tons, but in kilograms.  Clothes are less dense than
water.  Most other personal effects (of PCs, anyway) are denser than
water (weapons, commo gear, armor, computers, electronics, etc.).  So
Baroness Hortense de Zivije may need and be entitled to 2 displacement
tons for her various ball gowns, masquerade costumes, formal court
attire, Moot dress, etc., etc., etc.  Her bodyguards, ex-Sgt. Maj.
Lauderdale and ex-Other Curee, may only get less than a displacement ton
each for their gauss rifles, grenade launchers, map boxes, combat armor,
etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:47:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Mora info in Far Trader

On 04/08/99 19:42:54 you wrote:
>
>On page 135, Mora has a trade classification of cx. What the heck 
>is that? A misprint or just not supposed to be there.
>
>Terry
>

	Cx designates Mora as the sector capital.  Cs designates subsector 
capitals.
	I think there were some version control problems with ch. 7.  There 
seem to be some errors in it that I thought I'd fixed in the final version.  
It was the last chapter completed and our print date had been moved up, so we 
were a little rushed.

- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:50:25 -0400
From: Joseph Coles <coles@evtc.com>
Subject: Re: fuel cells/power limits

>
>Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:41:10 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Breakthrough
>
>In mail you write:
>
>> Leonard Erickson writes:
>>>> BTW, one detail the John W. Campbell pointed out back in the 60s.
>>> Barring some major breaktrough, electric cars will not be able to spare
>>> the power to run electrical heaters, and they won't produce enough
>>> "waste heat" to drive a normal heater (or air conditioner for that
>>> matter). 
>>
>> Hm...ideally, you could probably create a dramatically more efficient
>> heater by using a heat pump (a reversed air conditioning unit).  I
>> assume there's some technical reason this isn't normally practical,
>> since it could allow a 5-10x increase in the efficiency of a heater
>> (with the side effect of extremely _cold_ air being produced on the
>> outside).
>
>It's not a matter of *efficiency*. It's a matter of *limited* available
>power. Heating and coooling, even using heat pumps, use *huge* amounts
>of power. You can't *afford* the extra battery mass required (not with
>any battery we are likely to see).
>
>So you use the heat driven accessories. 
>
IIRC, a typical 1990's auto AC system is 2-3 tons capacity (lets say 2.5
tons or 30,000 BTU).  This takes about 8.8KW to operate. This is about the
same amount of power that a 10-11 horsepower motor would use.  To put this
in the context of an electric (fuel cell) car, how large a drive motor do
they require?  And what is the power production ability of these fuel cells?
Is another 10-11 KW a "make or break" on the design (adding another KW or
two to account for an electric resistance heater - that heat pump is going
to take an AWFULLY long time to heat up a vehicle interioor on a cold
morning!). 
- ---------------
Joe Coles
coles@evtc.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:17:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:08:55 -0500 (CDT), jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
>	A Beowulf-class Free Trader converted to J-6 and drop tanks _would_
>make a lot more money than a conventional Beowulf.  Of course, it would also
>cost a lot more to own and operate.  The difference in price between a J-1
>and J-6 drive for a 200-dton GT ship is 31MCr.  This more than doubles the
>price of the ship.


>The cost of operating a drop tank ship is also higher
>because of the additional infrastructure required.

>  It is true that drop-
>tank ships are overall likely to be less expensive to operate than
>conventional designs and that this advantage increases with jump number, but
>it is also true that this cost advantage is not so large as to be truly
>revolutionary.


How did you get "more than doubles"?  I used my spreadsheet and made up a
regular free trader and a jump-6 drop tank version.  (My numbers didn't
come out exactly like those in the books, mine had 71 tons of cargo and
cost 27 mCr).  If I go to a jump-6 ship I get a 96% in increase in cost.
This is ofset by the 18% increase in cargo space and is much less
than the 6 fold increase in speed.
(If you go jump-3, the increased cost is paid for by the cargo increase
and you get the tripling of the speed for "free").

Now these changes seem clearly big enough to justify switching
to a drop tanks system (and I can't see any reason why
a drop tank should be expensive and the cost can't be spread
over all the ships that jump out of a system).  They also
seem clearly big enough to make the cost of cargo a fraction
of the original price.

>>Now in you explination, you mentioned how the economics
>>were based on the assumption that trade will be generally
>>jump-2.  If trade become generally jump-6 won't that make
>>a non-trivial difference?  At the least, it should
>>redically change the BTNs, and what is based on them.

>It is true that if trade became significantly cheaper and/or faster, the
>distance mods used in calculating the BTNs would have to be revised.
>However, it would have to be a _huge_ change, because the BTN scale is very
>course.  Remember that a +0.5 increase in BTN is equal to a five-fold
>increase in trade, and a +1.0 increase is a ten-fold increase in trade.  I
>did this purposefully so as to make BTNs robust to IMTU-type changes to
>background people might wish to make.  Drop-tanks fall into this category.

Well, I hadn't appreciated the "adjustable" nature of the rules
when I playtested them them.  Good for you.  When I look at the
distance table, it looks like a drop tank system will take
the average jump from a 0.5 modifier to a 1.0 modifier.  Does
it make a difference if you push up BTN by 0.5?  It also, if
a ship can do things a lot cheaper, have a linear effect on
the cargo price.

It seems to me that it won't, as a first believe, invalidate
the basis for the system, but that a GM will have to make changes
(and that the current system does present a non-drop tank system).
How hard will that be?  If a GM just drops all BTNs by 0.5
will that do it?  How does he handle cargo price.  Does he
go in and just work out how the cost change for a number of
ships and change the cost of cargo proportionately?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #426
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 427



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deckplans
MISC: ShoreCon '99
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Jump Limits
Rogue Robots (Was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))
Re: Black Globes
TRAVELLER: ENTROPIC WORLDS CAMPAIGN PART 2
GURPS TRAVELLER: ENTROPIC WORLDS CAMPAIGN PART 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:42:21 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Clint Fishback wrote:
>
> What programs do most people use for doing deckplans?  I have a
> PC and trying to figure out the best program for doing this.

I actually do a lot of graphics work with several very economical
packages.  Surprisingly enough, MS Paint handles most of my
needs.  Transparent cut-n-paste, assorted tools, mirrors, skewing,
basic 90 degree rotations.  For deckplans, that usually all you
need.

If you're thinking about that Starship Showcase thread, also
check out Persistence of Vision (www.povray.org).  It's a free
multi-platform ray tracing package and when coupled with
some modeling software, you have a powerful but inexpensive 3D
graphics solution.  At the above link you can also find URLs
for POV Lab (freeware) and Moray (fully functional shareware).
All the ships in my gallery are made with Moray and POVRay.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 15:41:43 -0400
From: Tal Meta <talmeta@cybercomm.net>
Subject: MISC: ShoreCon '99

Greetings.

I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on
September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that capacity,
I'm looking for GMs (and players, too) for RPG events at the convention. 

The deadline for event submissions is June 1st, and by visiting
<http://gameconventions.com> you can find complete information on hotel
accomodations, online GM registration, and even get on the mailing list
to have our pre-registration book sent directly to you. If you are
interested in GMing an event, the time to sign up is now! 

This year I'd like to be able to schedule more Sci-Fi RPG events...

This year ShoreCon will will be having several special guests, including
Peter Adkison - President and CEO of WotC/TSR, Steve Jackson (of Steve
Jackson Games) and Jolly Blackburn, creator of KotDT! (Several other
guests are as yet unconfirmed... watch our website for updates!)

We're also having the Star Wars LARP (as well as others) again this
year!

Thanx for your time...

- -- 
talmeta@cybercomm.net - Heretic & Dilettante
ICQ - 12594453
AIM - talmeta1
Homepage - <http://members.xoom.com/talmeta>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:51:02 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

Brannon W. Boren wrote

> What do people wear in YTU?

High Fashion of Capital/Core - circa 1100

The most important charecteristic of evey outfit is that it be
expensive, and that it is readily apparent that it is expensive.  Aside
from that there are fewer fashion requirements then there are today
because Imperial culture is much larger and more diverse then modern
Earth culture.

Technology increases the possible options in fashion choices, as fabrics
become sturdier oufits from them can be made of thinner cloth, they can
show more skin as smaller bits of cloth are strong enough to avoid
tearing, and more extreme outfits can be seen as "practical" because
they will last.  Therefore since conspicuous consumption sometimes
requires a rich person, especially a noble one, to be wearing an outfit
that 1) clearly cost tens of thousands of credits, and 2) is clearly
impractical enough that it will only be good for one or two wearings
high fashion has had to a bit creative.  One of the assumptions I make
is that as technology advances the price of manufactured goods will go
down but the price of personal services will not (barring the use of
robots, IMTU I assume that delicate tactile sensors, and eyes that can
perceive millions of colors are difficult to develop and that it is
therefore difficult to have a truly accomplished robotic heardresser or
makeup applier).  Therefore an expensive outfit is one that took a great
deal of hired effort.  For example a noble interested in truly
conspicuous consumption might hire a master artist, at a price of Cr
100,000 or more, to paint a costume/painting on their naked or near
naked body, making sure to sign it conspicuously so that their friends
will know they are wearing a Picasso, and that they will wash it off
after the party.

However IMTU trends in high fashion are set by the Empress, and to a
significantly lesser extent the Emperor [IMTU the Emperor, because his
word is law, tends _not_ to comment on/influence fashion matters because
1) they are not worth his time 2) much of the tiem the clothing he wears
is dictated by tradition [que Fiddler on the Roof music] and 3) if the
Emperor says "I [or We] do not like that outfit." its wearer is
commiting lese majesty therefore the Emperor tends not to say "I/We do
not like that outfit."  Despite this it is occasionally rumored that
Emperors Dressers have taken _very_ large bribes in the past to select
new clothing for the Imperial Wardrobe and then ensure that his Imperial
Makesty is seen wearing it.

Official Traveller sources have tended not to say very much, if
anything, about Empress Iolanthe.  I assume that they have not said much
about her because she does not _want_ them to say much about her. 
Therfore IMTU Iolanthe is a shy [-5 points, Mild Shyness in GURPS terms]
woman.  Therefor she tends to be rather conservative in her own fashion
choices so as not to draw attention to them.  This conservatism of hers
has set the tone for Milieu 1100 top fashions and has made them more
conservative then they othewise would have been.  For example outfits
with grav belt type effects built into the fabric causing capes that
levitate behind their owner are _right_out_ and are seen as the sort of
vulgar items that people with more money than class might wear.

A few examples of high fashion outfits a charecter of mine, Sir Sigrid
Ottawa OI, OEG wore follow. [Sigrid was of primarily Solomani descent,
therefore she choose to avoid Vilani influenced styles.  She was dark
skinned and this affected her color choices.] Prices are in kilo (1,000)
credits.

Jeweled knights circlet KCr 250; Green silk outfit KCr 20; Shurshi cloth
dress KCr 30; sexy black dress KCr 20; formal outfit for wearing to a
coronation KCr 50; Color changeing irridescent mirrored computer
controlled outfit [can be set to serve as Reflec-1]  KCr 30; the one
with the cape KCr 10; the business suit for wearing to megacorp board
meetings KCr 40; the fur [for wearing in weather below about 10 C]
30KCr; the fluffy white 1980's prom queen style outfit which conveys the
message that she is an airhead who could not possibly be plotting
against you, useful when she was in fact plotting against them KCr 20;
the outfit left undefined for future plot purposes KCr 20.  All these
items were carried in a fashionable TL 15 floating Wardrobe with a Grav
module & a computer telling her what was worn when worth KCr 150.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 12:05:21 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Limits

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote


> There are two problems about jump that I find hard to accept

> 1: Will ships that jump have the same velocity upon jump exit? If
> that is the case that would have to be taken into account by pilots
> as stars have different velocities that have to be matched (this is 
> more of a problem in TNE where ships delta-V are restricted).

IMTU entering jumpspace subjects a ship to the physical laws of
jumpspace.  One of the more important difference is that in Jumpspace
the motion of an object is _relative_ not absolute.  Any motion the ship
is making relative to an object is not retained unless that object comes
with the ship to provide a frame of reference.

For example when a ship jumps it retains its own individual velocity
relative to the section of space surrounding it because the ship brings
a meter or so of this vacuum with it thereby providing a frame of
reference to retain this velocity.  However since the jump ship does not
bring the sun it was orbitting with it the ship _looses_ all the
movement caused by the stars velocity relative to the target stars
velocity.  When ships drop out of jump they still have any personal
velocity relative to the vaccum around them but have lost whatever
velocity that space had. This handwave eliminates needless calculations
and relies on assumed properties of jumpspace so it should be impossible
to prove it incorrect.

> 2: Potential energy: Ships that jump from one place to another would 
> have different potential energy before and after a jump which 
> basically means that you could get energy for free. A clear break with 
> conservation laws

Energy is not being created it is merely being tranfered between our
universe and the Jumpspace universe.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:19:36 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Rogue Robots (Was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))

Joseph R. Dietrich posted:
>
>ObTrav: With the advent of GURPS Traveller, it has now become possible to
>integrate the setting of GURPS Reign of Steel into the Traveller universe
>with a minimum of difficulty. Aside from TNE campaigns, has anyone run a
>"robots gone rogue" campaign in a Traveller game? If so, what was the
>scenario?

I tried to run a Traveller campaign way back in college
for a group of D&D'rs. Their job was to recover a scout
team on a planet in the Vanguard Reaches sector. The
adventure would escalate to them leading a human
revolution (or so I hoped).

In typical D&D fashion, they charged, with ACRs
blazing and in broad daylight, the heavily armed
compound where the scout team was being held.

'sigh'

Shortest campaign I ever ran.

The underlying premise was that all robots didn't have
Asimov's Rules of Robotics programmed into them and
some moron told a military command center to shut
down "everything" as he left for the day. When the
system asked for clairification as to what needed to
be shut down, being tired and irritated after a long
day, the idjut said "everything you can access".

Problem is the center could "access" most of the world
with its missile complexes and warbot supplemental
troops.

Simplistic but, what the heck, it was the early 80's.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 13:46:10 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Black Globes

> >Interesting. How much tonnage do these take up?
> >===
> >
>         I don't have my copy of High Guard with me at work, but it varies by
> USP....  also, they are all TL16+ devices....  Usually an Ancient artifact.

In High Guard, Black Globes factor 1-4 are available
to the Imperial Navy at a nominal TL of 15 as "experimental"
fittings. 

Code      Tech       Tons     Cost
1         15         10       400
2         15         15       600
3         15         20       800
4         15         25       1000
5         16         20       -
6         16         30       -
7         16         35       -
8         17         20       -
9         18         20       -

The code times 10% is the maximum "flicker rate" 
(actually flicker duty cycle) - code 1 can either 
be always on or flicker 10% on, 90% off; code 5 
can be always on or flicker 50% on, 50% off. 
In HG, flicker amounted to armor as defense, with
a penalty to outgoing fire/maneuver/agility, or
something.

- -Russell B

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:49:34 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: TRAVELLER: ENTROPIC WORLDS CAMPAIGN PART 2

THE ENTROPIC WORLDS

A group of four worlds, including Entrope and its three neighbors. Entrope 
had a much better spaceport before the last takeover by the Sword Worlds. All 
facilities were destroyed to prevent Entrope from serving as a base for 
Darrian ships. The starport is still little more than a cleared space and a 
customs shed. Fuel may be obtained from the ocean since there are no gas 
giants. Entrope's current leader is Major Kerin Yoldat, a war hero who was 
responsible for the coup that swayed Entrope's ground forces to the Darrian 
side at the time of the invasion that retook the planet. Major Yoldat is 
still investigating former collaborators and Sword World immigrants, 
expelling or imprisoning some of them. Weapons are not actually outlawed, but 
it takes a time-consuming background check to get a permit to carry one. 

Of the other Entropic Worlds, Winston was thinly colonized before it was 
taken over and lost a great deal of its population and technology in repeated 
fighting with the Sword Worlds. Some nations are still sympathetic to the 
Sword Worlds, but most are loyal to Darrian. Anselhome is a large asteroid 
which attracted colonists because of its wealth of ores. Living quarters are 
hollowed into the rock. Some of the atmosphere for the underground habitats 
is processed from the gasses put out by Anselhome's volcanoes. The only 
native life (whose existence amazed some scientists) is bacteria and lichens 
in the low-lying valleys. Finally, Torment is a prison planet for the most 
incorrigible of criminals, those whom Darrian psychologists have judged 
impossible to cure of violent tendencies. It is miserably cold and barren, 
consisting only of the one central village of convicts. They are required to 
work in mining and industry to pay for the import of enough food to support 
them. A hierarchy of criminals who demand obedience from their fellow 
convicts runs the prison. This obedience has little to do with law and order, 
as might be expected. They select their own successors before dying.

THE IMPERIAL MEGACORPORATIONS

Millions of organizations do business within and without the Imperium. Most 
of these are limited to one or two worlds. A few thousand trade over one or 
more subsectors, a few hundred cover one or more sectors. Only a few firms 
are truly Imperial in scope; these are known as megacorporations. Staggering 
in size, these organizations are so large that no one person can know 
everything they are concerned with at any given moment. Total shares of 
stock, annual profits, number of employees are all astronomical. Many 
organizations are so large that different divisions of the same 
megacorporation may actually be working at cross-purposes. In most regions, 
megacorporations merely own the land their installations are on, but in some 
areas they control entire planets, either directly or indirectly.

Most megacorporations are organized very much like smaller companies (with a 
board of directors, a president, and vice presidents), but the board and the 
higher level executive officers of the company are largely out of contact 
with the day to day (or even year to year) functioning of the company. These 
upper level executives serve to plan general policy and long distance 
actions. The most important executives, in terms of personal power, are the 
various regional managers (by whatever name they may be called). A regional 
manager may control only a small portion of a megacorporation's total assets, 
but many hold more power in some regions than the representatives of the 
Imperial government.

A small number of Imperial regulatory agencies have power over 
megacorporations, and they are subject to any applicable local taxes, but, 
provided they do not blatantly violate Imperial sovereignty, regional 
managers can usually conduct their company's business as they see fit. 
Because a direct confrontation with the Imperium would be bad for business, 
intentional violation of Imperial laws is done only on a covert basis.

TITLES

Except for those pre-dating the Imperium, all corporations engaging in 
interstellar commerce is required to possess an Imperial charter. The letters 
LIC following the company name indicates this. LIC stands for Limited 
liability Imperial Charter. Occasionally, corporations make use of archaic 
titles, such as the Terran LTD, Inc, Amt, AG, SA, etc. This is done either to 
indicate that the com an predates the Third Imperium (rarely the case) or to 
add charm and quaintness to the title.

A few Vilani megacorporations are still in business under their Vilani titles 
(Makhidkarun, Naasirka, Sharurshid, and Zirunkariish). The names, at least, 
date back to 1st Imperium times, and were the names of the Imperial 
organizations, half-industrial trusts, and half-government bureaus, which 
controlled commerce in the Vilani Imperium.

CAPSULE DESCRIPTIONS

Space considerations prohibit a complete description of the activities of 
every megacorporation. The following are basic descriptions.

Delgado Trading, LIC: Originally a manufacturer of military hardware and 
widely known for their work in miniaturization, Delgado has extensive 
holdings in heavy mineral mining and refining, publishing, antiquities 
trading, and recently, the toy industry. Founded in 997, Delgado is the 
youngest of the megacorporations. Stock ownership: Imperial family- 5%, 
Delgado family- 47%, Noble families- 27%, Private ownership- 21%

General Products, LIC: Largely concerned with heavy industry, General is a 
manufacturer of starships, non-starships, and heavy machinery of all sorts. 
General is known for inexpensive products of adequate quality, but of late 
its starship division (particularly its military products) has been plagued 
with disaster.
The corporation was formed by the merger of a number smaller manufacturing 
concerns shortly aftermath; end of the Civil War, in the period 620 to 622.

Stock ownership: Imperial family- 5%, Hortalez et Cie- 26%, Noble families- 
35%, Privateownership- 12%, Antares Holdings, LIC- 12%, Other- 10 %

GSbAG: Founded, according to company propaganda, in -2438 from a consortium 
of old Terran manufacturing firms. In actual fact, there is no concrete 
evidence of the corporation's existence prior to a contract with the Sylean 
Federation Navy in -334. Unlike other manufacturers, GSbAG (popularly known 
as Gas-bag) has restricted itself almost exclusively to the manufacture of 
starships since its earliest known existence.

GSbAG is one of two firms charged with the manufacture of the personal 
vessels of the Imperial family and is a major contractor for the Imperial 
military. Their products command extremely high prices, but it is gerierally 
conceded that the quality makes them well worth it.
Stock ownership: Hortalez et Cie- 19%, Imperial family- 4%, Noble families, 
(includes the families of the legendary founders)- 44%, Other corporations- 
13%, Private investors- 4%, Other-16%

Hortalez et Cie, LIC: Founded in 221 by Lucienne Hortalez, capitalized from 
family funds. Primarily a banking and investment house, Hortelez specializes 
in loans to planetary governments, mercenary unit bonding, underwriting of 
large scale projects of all sorts, and other fiscal activities. Hortelez is 
one of the major insurance houses in the Imperium. In some regions (the 
Spinward Marches especialIyI the firm acts as a mercenary clearinghouse.

Stock ownership: Hortalez family- 74%, Other corporations- 15%, Imperial 
family- 5%, Other- 6%

Instellarms, LIC: Founded in 626, shortly after the end of the Civil War, by 
Axel Murdoch, a retired colonel of mercenaries. Taking advantage of inside 
contacts in the Imperial military, Murdoch was able to obtain large 
quantities of surplus military equipment at very low prices, but still 
costing billions of credits. Where Murdoch got his financing is not known.
Murdoch's connections with various mercenary unit commanders coupled with a 
willingness to ignore the Imperial regulations on mercenary warfare where the 
profits were large enough enabled Instellarms to dominate the mercenary arms 
trade in the coreward sectors of the Imperium within ninety years, and in the 
Imperium as a whole within two centuries.

Manufacturing, buying, and selling military equipment of all sorts, 
Instellarms a specialty supplier of mercenary units of all sizes and types. 
Agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the 
purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely 
over. The company does not deal in interstellar vessels and chemical, 
bacteriological, or nuclear weaponry, but these can sometimes be obtained on 
low law level worlds for astronomical prices.

Stock ownership: Murdoch Holdings, LIC- 32% Hortalez et Cie- 30%, Noble 
families- 8%, Ling-Standard Products- 6%, Ichiban Interstellar, LIC- 5%, 
GSbAG- 5%, Sternmetal Horizons, LIC- 8%, Other- 6%

Ling-Standard Products: Originally a mining firm (and still very active in 
this area) LSP curreritly engages in a wide spectrum of activities including 
(but by no means limited to) manufacture of electronic equipment of all 
sorts, ground and air vehicles, starships and starship armaments systems, 
drive systems, power systems, computer systems and software, small arms, and 
a variety of other items. Concerned to a small degree with banking, 
insurance, and other activities, LSP maintains mining and manufacturing 
facilities throughout the Imperium and beyond.

Stock ownership: Imperial family- 8%, Hortalez et Cie- 26%, GSbAG- 23%, Noble 
families- 8%, Murdoch Holdings, LIC- 8%, Other- 27%

Makhidkarun: The origins of this company are shrouded in the mists of the 
Long Night. All that can be stated with certainty is that its foundation 
pre-dates the Third Imperium. Makhidkarun specializes in the communications 
and entertainment industries. The firm produces fine musical recordings of 
all types, two and three dimensional motion pictures, books, magazines, and 
art reproductions of all sorts. Its communucations division produces a wide 
variety of data processing, storage, and retrieval equipment and the 
requisite software for it. A gourmet foods division trades in all manner of 
rare and expensive foods, wines, and delicacies.

Stock ownership: Imperial family- 5%, Noble families- 28%, Hortalez et Cie- 
28%, Investment trusts- 25%, Private ownership- 14%

Naasirka: Naasirka specializes in the manufacture of information storage an 
processing equipment and software, computers, robots, and other complex 
electronic devices. The firm is a Vilani megacorporation of uncertain 
lineage, but it known to have been in business prior to the founding of the 
Sylean Federation. Naasirka is the largest supplier of communications 
equipment to the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service's xboat branch.

Stock ownership: Imperial family- 4%, Investment trusts- 24%, Noble families- 
23%, Hortalez et Cie- 11%, Other corporations- 14%, Igsiirdi family- 13%, 
Private ownership- 11%

SuSAG, LIC (Schunamann und Sohn AG, LIC): SuSAG engages in a wide range of 
chemical, pharmaceutical, and geneering activities. SuSAG is the primary 
manufacturer of anagathics for the Imperium, and maintains psi drug 
manufacturing plants in certain client states outside Imperial borders. 
Because of the bad reputation for safety of its chemical/biological warfare 
division, the firm is not well liked in many regions, even though all of 
SuSAG's dangerous manufacturing plants and experimental stations are located 
on remote, uninhabited planetoids. Since sabotage of its plants is 
widespread, and its products extremely valuable, the firm maintains a large 
paramilitary security force, equipped to tech level 12-14 standards. SuSAG 
was founded in 252 by Gustav Schunamann, financed from royalties received for 
his purification process for various psionic drugs, and using the shell of a 
bankrupt Sylean firm (hence the archaic AG in its name). In 800, psi drugs 
were declared illegal, all plants engaged in their manufacture within the 
Imperium closed, and all stocks confiscated and destroyed. Fortunately for 
SuSAG, the firm had by then expanded into other operations, and although 
badly damaged, managed to survive and prosper. SuSAG often engages in 
clandestine military ventures (using mercenary units) to protect their 
extra-Imperial interests.

Stock ownership: Schunamann family- 52%, Imperial family- 2%, Hortalez et 
Cie- 9%, Other corporations- 23%, Private ownership- 7%, Other- 6%

Sharurshid: A Vilani trade and speculation corporation, with very little 
manufacturing capability, Sharurshid trades in luxury goods from all parts of 
the Imperium and many areas beyond. Most rare Terran wines and spirits are 
carried on the starships of Sharurshid.
Stock ownership: Sharurshid trust- 46%, Imperial family- 3%, Other 
corporations- 14%, Zirunkariish- 13%, Hortalez et Cie- 14%, Private 
ownership- 10%

Sternmetal Horizons, LIC: Sternmetal is primarily engaged in mining 
operations and manufacturing. It produces mostly power generation equipment 
of all types, including power plants for starships, air and ground vehicles, 
cities, and industrial installations. Additionally, Sternmetal is the largest 
manufacturer of food synthesis equipment in the Imperium.
Stock Ownership: Imperial family- 2%, Hortalez et Cie- 29%, Investment 
trusts- 32%, Noble families- 18%, Antares Holdings, LIC- 19%

Tukera Lines, LIC: Tukera Lines operates a vast fleet of passenger and 
freight vessels throughout the Imperium, following the xboat lines. In some 
subsectors (particularly the older, more established regions of the Imperium) 
Tukera Lines has a virtual monopoly on long distance shipping and travel.
The oldest record of the firm is a charter from the government of the Sylean 
Federation, but family tradition holds the company to be several centuries 
older.
Stock Ownership: Tukera family- 29%, Imperial family- 3%, Other corporations- 
9%, Private ownership- 31%, Investment trusts- 28%

Zirunkariish: A Vilani banking and investment company. Unlike most other 
Vilani megacorporatioris, whose origins are shrouded in mystery, Zirunkariish 
is known to have been founded by the noble Vilani family of Shiishuginsa (a 
member of which, Antiama, married the emperor Zhakirov in 679) in the year 
- -425.
Zirunkariish is one of the largest insurance underwriters in the Imperium, 
and while its capital reserves are gigantic, it usually chooses to invest 
them in various trusts rather than in other megacorporations.

Stock ownership: Shiishuginsa family- 29%, Imperial family- 18%, Sharurshid 
trust- 17%, Hortalez et Cie- 7%, Noble families- 12%, Investment trusts- 8%, 
Private ownership- 9%


THE NEXT STEP

These are the sources from which players may select to build their faction. 
Upon selection of the agency or organization from which the faction draws its 
support, the player should begin to design a network of characters with which 
to interact within the play environment. It is not necessary to construct all 
the characters in a faction network immediately. It is strongly suggested 
that players first identify position and locations that they wish to place 
their characters first. Actual character creation is only necessary when the 
player intends to begin receiving information from that character about the 
play environment. The level of detail given to the character, the more 
information the referee will be able to provide the player from that 
characters observations or interacting with the play environment. 

Although the campaign is designed as a GURPS TRAVELLER adventure, any version 
of Traveller is acceptable for character creation. It is recommended that 
players make use of the GURPS TRAVELLER character templates to create their 
characters. The referee makes extensive use of character creation software 
featured at the Steve Jackson Games website. Characters created using the GCA 
or GCM programs can simply email the character files to the referee. 

Again the general format of this campaign is strategic control of character 
assets to achieve geopolitical goals and objectives. Players should think in 
terms of being a case officer handling agents. The characters in turn will 
control various playable assets such as starships, troops, or commercial 
enterprises. The objective of the campaign is to fully develop your faction, 
and to achieve the faction's victory conditions.

The victory conditions for each faction are simple, control of the Entropic 
Worlds. Once the faction is identified and the characters are beginning to 
take shape. The player should focus on how and why their faction would want 
control of the Entropic Worlds. The Sword Worlds could want the Entropic 
Worlds as a stepping stone to the spinward frontiers outside the Spinward 
Marches. The Darrians may see them as the stepping stone for a Darrian 
invasion. The Zhodani may see the Entropic Worlds as a bastion against 
further Imperial expansion toward the Consulate. The specific reasons for the 
faction's interest is left up to the player and will be developed during 
play. 

CAMPAIGN FORMAT

The player will submit turns in a format that provides identification and 
instructions for each character controlled. The level of detail is determined 
by the play action currently underway.  The referee based on the character's 
description and player placement of the character will assign character 
assets such as contacts, subordinates and equipment.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:49:29 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: GURPS TRAVELLER: ENTROPIC WORLDS CAMPAIGN PART 1

GURPS Traveller: The Entropic Worlds Campaign.                                
              Part 1

Turn 0

The Entropic Worlds Campaign is not like the average role playing game 
adventure. Rather than playing a specific individual character, players are 
called up on to play a group or cell of characters. The characters all have 
the unifying factor of being part of a single group with the same goals and 
objectives: the player's goals and objectives. 

The first step in preparing to play in the Entropic Worlds campaign is to 
decide what group or faction the player wishes to represent in the campaign. 
A general understanding of the Traveller Universe is helpful in making this 
decision. 

THE IMPERIUM

The Imperium is a far-flung interstellar community encompassing over 1100 
worlds within a region approximately 700 parsecs across. It has now ruled its 
territory for eleven centuries and looks to continue for many more. 
Interstellar government over such a large area, however, becomes a 
philosophical question; the problem initially seeming to be insurmountable. 
Distance, travel time, and communication lag all conspire against a 
functioning, efficient structure which can meet the needs of its subject 
population. But the lessons of history serve as a guide. Spain in the 16th 
century ruled much of the New World, with travel times of up to a year 
between the seat of government and the new territories. In fact, through most 
of history timely governmental communication, with both a rapid dispatch of 
instructions and an equally rapid response, has been a dream, not a reality.

The Imperium has come upon two solutions, which together ameliorate the 
problems of distance: the xboat network and feudalism. The Xboat Network: 
Like the body, with its network of veins and arteries, the Imperium is 
permeated by a network of xboat routes, or links, devoted entirely to the 
carriage of messages for official, commercial, and private purposes. The 
express boat (xboat) is a small, fast ship filled with a pilot compartment, 
message data banks, and jump drives. The fit is so tight that the tiny ships 
don't have maneuver drives. Each is capable of jump-4 (four parsecs in a 
week); it jumps, relays its messages to the station on arrival, and then 
waits to be picked up by a tender, refueled, and sent on its way to the next 
station on the route. The local station on a world accepts messages, encodes 
them, and transmits them to a station at the edge of the stellar system. The 
network works like the pony express with messages always moving at top speed. 
Transfer time for the messages from one xboat to another can be as short as 
ten minutes, and is rarely more than an hour.

Ultimately, the little xboats make their way to one of the many Imperial Way 
Stations scattered throughout the Imperium's subsectors. There they are 
refitted, overhauled, and refurbished, only to be sent on their way again. 
The xboat network makes the edge of the Imperium about 44 weeks out from the 
core and capital; that represents a savings of better than 50% of normal 
travel time. And still the Imperium is straining under the effects of 
distance. Feudalism: With such great distances separating stellar systems, 
individual responsibility and authority become of great importance. The 
Imperium is divided into sectors (twenty of them), each about 32 parsecs by 
40 parsecs in size. Each sector is divided into sixteen subsectors (8 by 10 
parsecs). And within a sector are perhaps thirty or forty systems, each with 
a star, worlds, and satellites.

Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as 
they desire, provided that ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium. 
Interstellar government begins at the subsector level - on one world 
designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital 
is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government. This duke 
has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from 
his superiors. But at the same time, the duke owes fealty to the higher 
levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself. The feudal approach 
depends greatly on a sense of honor, one cultivated by the hereditary 
aristocracy. This sense of honor is very strong within the Imperium has 
proven essential to the survival of such a far-flung community.

INTERSTELLAR SOCIETY

The known interstellar community encompasses thousands of worlds, many of 
them inhabited, and not all by humaniti. The number of intelligent life forms 
which have been contacted is quite high; within the Imperium itself, over one 
hundred intelligent species have been identified. When regions beyond the 
Imperial boundaries are included, the total number rises to well over four 
hundred. Major and Minor Races: A superficial classification system for the 
various intelligent races have been created, based on empirical evidence and 
to some extent on tradition. In general, the dominant races of known space 
are those which have achieved FTL (faster than light) travel by themselves, 
rather than receiving it through contact with starfaring civilizations. These 
dominant races are called major races; all others are called minor races. 
Thus, the term major race has become attached to any race that achieves FTL 
flight on its own, regardless of its prominence. There are sound reasons for 
the mixing of these two concepts: races which developed FTL rapidly expanded 
into space, spreading their influence across the stars. Slower races were 
contacted before they had a chance to discover the FTL secret and emerged 
into a universe already controlled by the major races. Indeed, the culture 
shock of being found by a superior race (often superior only in their 
knowledge of FTL) may take something out of the race as a whole, making them 
incapable of denying their secondary role in interstellar society. The 
classification scheme is, of course, simplistic, but the major races tend to 
perpetuate it as it to their advantage.

The Six Races: Similar to the major/minor race division is the concept of the 
Six Races. The origin of the term is uncertain, but it appears independently 
in Aslan, Vargr, and Centaur sources. There is some disagreement as to the 
proper identification of the Six, but most commentators agree that all must 
be major races. The most common definition was once Aslan, Centaurs, Hive, 
Vargr, Zhodani, and Imperials (both Solomani and Vilani). The confirmation 
(in 790, Imperial date) of multiple worlds inhabited by the Droyne, and of 
archeological evidence that they possessed FTL travel before the entry of any 
of the modern dominant races into space gave new weight to the Six Race 
concept. With the inclusion of the Droyne, Humaniti could be neatly 
categorized as one race, clearing the way for a classification that included 
six truly distinct races: Aslan, Centaurs, Droyne, Hive, Humans, and Vargr.

Aslan are roughly human-sized and are descended from four-limbed, upright, 
bipedal carnivore/pouncer stock. The earliest Terran explorers saw in them a 
vague resemblance to the Terran lion, and they have been described (by 
Terrans) as lion-like ever since, although there is very little true 
similarity.
Centaurs (they call themselves the K'kree) are among the most massive of the 
major races, and are the only examples of the major races descended from 
herbivores. Centaurs are conservative, gregarious with their own kind (to the 
point of distress if isolated) and claustrophobic. These characteristics 
derive from their evolutionary origins as herd animals.

Droyne are a small race, both in stature and in dominion, with only limited 
settlements on a small number of worlds. The history of their evolution is a 
puzzle as their home world is not known with certainty. The Droyne have no 
empires, and actually rule only a few worlds. In some few cases, they possess 
the technology to introduce sophisticated machinery, including jump drives 
and starships, but they remain apparently content to stay on their own 
worlds. Humaniti (old spelling: humanity) is a special case. Originally 
evolved on Terra, humans were disseminated over nearly fifty worlds about 
300,000 years ago by the Ancients, a now extinct intelligent race. These 
various examples of humaniti then independently developed. Unlike non-human 
races, individual human races are classified as major or minor. Three human 
races (the Solomani of Terra, the Vilani of the First Imperium, and the 
Zhodani far to spinward) are major races. The nearly forty other races of 
humaniti are all minor.

Vargr are an intelligent race genetically manipulated from carnivore/chaser 
stock by the same Ancients who disseminated humaniti to the stars. Vargr have 
long suffered from an inability to organize themselves (to any degree or for 
any length of time) beyond the star system level, and their empires tend to 
rise and fall with unsurprising regularity. Vargr have an intense racial 
pride, and are easily insulted. They are prone to enter into fights without 
regard for possible consequences.

Hivers (a human term applied to them) are the most obviously alien of the 
major races: They are descended from omnivore gatherer/scavenger stock, and 
are unique in that they attained a form of agriculture before they became 
sentient. They exhibit a six-fold radial symmetry. The body has an internal 
skeleton consisting of a series of rings supporting the limbs, while a fused 
carapace protects the internal organs. Hivers themselves are highly 
individualistic (the term hive is an early misconception) while driven by 
basic drives such as curiosity, the parental instinct, and a desire to 
maintain the unity and uniformity of their race.

Within The Imperium: The many worlds of the Imperium shelter hundreds of 
races, including many of the major races. Aslan, Vargr, and Humans can be 
expected in many areas under Imperial rule. Zhodani, Centaurs, and Hivers, 
for various reasons, are much more infrequently encountered, and for the most 
part remain within their own regions.

PSIONICS

The concept of psionics is a strong point in the fabric of the Imperium. 
Until about 800, psionics were only weakly defined. Their achievement and 
distribution was only scattered. Humaniti has a strong potential for 
psionics, but its achievement requires both training and discipline. Other 
races have varying psionics potentials, with only limited interchangability 
between races, but psionics has never reached the great level of social 
importance as for humaniti. Zhodani cultures have consistently trained their 
nobles (only) in the use of psionics. In the Imperium, such training was 
originally a hobby or an avocation, but rarely of any value in the real 
world. In the period 600 to 800, the Psionics Institute began a campaign for 
more interest. Poorly timed, it coincided with PR backlash against the 
Zhodani (already the perpetrators of several wars against the Imperium). The 
result was a genuine revulsion on the part of most of the Imperial 
population- against psionics. This dislike is expressed differently on 
differently on different worlds, and has tended, in the past three centuries, 
to keep psionics on a clandestine, hobby-oriented, and slightly prurient, 
level.

THE ZHODANI

Human major race (H. sapiens) inhabiting the Zhodani Consulate, a region far 
spinward of the Imperium.
The Zhodani are a branch of humaniti similar in most respects to other human 
races. In general, they tend to be taller than Solomani or Vilani, and lithe 
of build. Their most important difference is the acceptance and use of 
psionics. Zhodani society is divided into three classes: nobles, intendants, 
and proles. Nobles are the enfranchised ruling class, and receive psionic 
training from childhood. Intendants are managers and administrators of 
society, and also receive early training. Proles constitute the masses, are 
forbidden the use of psionics, and do not receive training. Within this rigid 
class system, there are two opportunities for promotion to a higher class. 
All prole children are tested for psionic potential, those that then show 
high scores are then taken from their families and adopted into the intendant 
class. Intendants are rewarded for great diligence, service to the state, or 
victory in the psionic games through the granting of noble titles.

The presence of psionics in the hands of those in power means that many 
aspects of society work at high efficiency. Psychology, behavioral science, 
communications science, and education are more refined and exact than in 
other societies. Educational methods are finely tuned, and capable of 
teaching concepts rapidly and accurately. Mental deviance or criminal 
tendencies can be detected early and corrected with facility. Zhodani society 
is generally a happy one. Individuals are members of a functioning whole, 
with each making a contribution to its success. The relative lack of upward 
mobility for the proles is offset by the possibility for their children to 
move upwards if they have the proper potential. The burden of responsibility 
imposed on the intendants is lightened by the ever-present possibility of 
reward through elevation to the noble classes. The nobles themselves temper 
their burden of authority with comfort derived from their station in life.

Morality: The Zhodani have a general distaste for other human races which do 
not practice psionics. Effective indoctrination and ever-present possibility 
that one's mind is being read have removed dishonesty and deviance as common 
features of society. Disagreements still occur, competition thrives, passions 
flare. But all takes place in an atmosphere of honesty and truth. Individuals 
can express their feelings without fear and problems are openly dealt with. 
In non-psionic societies much is kept secret within the mind. The deviousness 
and dishonesty that pervades society would appall a Zhodani visiting the 
Imperium. Imperial distaste for the Zhodani is based on two facts. First, the 
Zhodani practice psionics, and an Imperial cannot be sure that a Zhodani is 
not invading his mental privacy at any time. Imperials feel exposed and 
uncomfortable in the presence of Zhodani. Second, because of their psionic 
abilities, the Zhodani have the most effective authoritarian rule in history. 
Imperial citizens used to a great degree of local autonomy, fear Zhodani 
conquest because of the loss of freedom it would entail.

Government: The Zhodani consulate is a participatory democracy in which only 
nobles are allowed to vote. Executive and judicial functions are the 
responsibility of a series of councils of varying sizes. Each council elects 
one of its number as executive officer, and a number of its members as 
delegates to the next higher council. A city, for example, will elect several 
of its council members to be representatives to the world council. The 
process continues upward through several layers of councils to the overall 
Grand Council of the Zhodani. Nominally, each member of a council serves for 
one Olympiad (three Zhodani years), but in practice, each councilor serves 
until his replacement arrives and replaces him officially, or until word of 
his re-election to another term is received. Often times, the district from 
which a councilor is elected will have only his relatives as voters, and his 
re-election is virtually assured.

Standard practice (when possible) calls for Zhodani councils to submit 
important questions to a plebiscite of those affected. The principle can be 
suspended where immediate action is required, but the official ordering the 
action stands responsible to the voters and must justify his actions as soon 
as possible.
Supreme executive power is vested in three consuls one elected each year for 
a term of one Olympiad by and from the members of the Grand Council. No 
consul may be elected twice in succession, and retired consuls become life 
members of the Grand Council.

History: The Zhodani date their empire from the traditional date of the first 
organized use of psionics on Zhodane, -6731 Imperial, the year of the first 
Olympiad. They achieved jump drive about 1300 years later, in -5415 Imperial. 
The expansion of the Zhodani was gradual and uneventful. Although some states 
on the fringe-resisted absorption into the Consulate, most were annexed 
peacefully. The Zhodani first came into conflict with the expanding Third 
Imperium in the 500's, starting the First Frontier War in a dispute over 
present and future limits to settlement in the Spinward Marches area. 
Continuing frontier wars over the next five hundred years have failed to 
resolve the basic differences between the two empires.

THE DARRIAN CONFEDERATION

An association of worlds inhabited primarily by members of the Darrian human 
minor race, settled during the period -1137 to -927. The Confederation, 
consisting of 21 worlds, lies spinward of the Sword Worlds in the Spinward 
Marches. The current capital is Mire. The Darrian Confederation contains 18 
worlds, all within the same subsector, and has a population of 17.19 billion. 
Darrians are Humans who have developed independently on Darrian (see humans). 
Some Solomani blood is evident as Solomani traders encountered Darrian in 
- -1511 and provided them with sufficient technology to explore the subsector.

The Darrian Confederation is an ally of the Imperium, and has been 
historically opposed to the Sword Worlds and the Zhodani Consulate.

THE SWORD WORLD CONFEDERACY

A loose confederation of worlds in the Spinward Marches, spinward of Imperial 
space and coreward of the Darrians. The first settlement in the region was on 
Gram in -399. By ca. -200 the settlement of the area was largely complete, 
and the first interstellar government in the region, the Sacnoth Dominate, 
was formed in -186. Consisting of the twenty worlds settled up to that point, 
the Dominate lasted until -102, when it was fractured by rebellion into 
several smaller states.

During the ensuing centuries, various Sword World governments rose and fell, 
sometimes coalescing all the worlds under a single world's domination, 
sometimes splintering into several small states. Contact with Imperial 
traders in 73 brought increased trade and had a stabilizing influence on the 
region, but this stability was short-lived. The First Frontier War brought a 
desire for cooperation among the various squabbling worlds, and the end of 
the war saw the formation of the first unified confederation in centuries, 
centered on Sacnoth, and referred to as the Second Dominate. As a result of 
the Outworld Coalition's victory, the Sword Worlds annexed Terant 340, 
Torment, Trifuge, and Cunnonic, all in the Darrian subsector.

The Second Dominate held power until 698, when it was overthrown by a 
coalition headed by Gram. The Gram Coalition ruled until 788, when a short 
war with the Darrian Confederation resulted in the loss of the four worlds 
gained during the First Frontier War. Public outrage at the mishandling of 
the war caused the subsequent fall of the Gram government. The replacement 
for the Gram Coalition was the Trilateral Alliance, a decentralized 
organization headed by Narsil, Sacnoth, and Durendal. The Alliance broke up 
in 848, due in large part to the inherent weakness of its organization, and 
an interregnum of essentially independent worlds lasted until Gram reasserted 
its influence (helped substantially by Zhodani money and advisors, rumor has 
in 852. This government has remained in control down to the present.

The government allows almost complete local autonomy. Individual worlds 
maintain separate military forces, pass their own laws, and completely 
regulate their own internal affairs. The Confederation government regulates 
interworld trade, diplomatic relations with outside powers, and adjudicates 
interworld disputes. In peacetime, the Confederation government maintains a 
pool of high-ranking military officers selected from the military forces of 
all worlds who are trained in large unit command and staff operations.

During time of war, all military forces are confederalized, and placed under 
a single unified command. For ground forces, generals from the individual 
worlds, corps and higher organizations will command divisions by 
Confederation officers. The component forces of a division will be from the 
same world whenever possible. For naval forces, individual ships are under 
the command of local officers, squadrons or higher organizations under 
Confederation officers.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #427
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Traveller-digest        Friday, April 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 428



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: re Skill Specialization
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: Granfather
Re: re Skill Specialization
Drop Tanks (Long)
Re: MISC: ShoreCon '99
Re: Drop Tanks
Grav ball t-shirt
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Government Type "M"
Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: Deckplans
Re: re Skill Specialization
Just when you thot it was *SAFE*
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
Re: Mora info in Far Trader
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Adventures (and Fashion)
Gearheads
Designing Robots
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:42:48 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

	The fashion discussion reminds me of an episode of the TV show "Viva 
Variety" where audience members were supposed to guess whether a partcular 
item of clothing was designed by a particular 20th century designer (I don't 
recall which) or was a costume worn by Klingons on Star Trek.    It was not 
easy to tell.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:50:18 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: re Skill Specialization

In a message dated 4/9/99 3:37:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:

<< 
 Can't say I'm too enamored of this though, if the costs on each
 level are equal what's to stop you from just putting points in the
 highest one you can (all in Auto Pistol, forex).  Frankly, I really
 don't want to get into different point costs for different levels.
  >>

	Isn't this exactly how Gun Cmbat works in T4?   If you have Rifle-5, 
you automatcially have Pistol-4, Shotgun-4, SMG-4.   It makes the putting 
skill points into more than one type of Gun Combat during character 
generation not a good idea, but it is easier to improve the lower level ones 
than the higher one during actual play.
I actually like the system alot in practice.  During game play it makes the 
characters a bit more versitile, and really doesn't unbalance play.  It 
allows non-military characters to muddle along in a military situation while 
the soldiers still have an edge.  
	Example your Merchant with Shotgun-2, can fire the ACR when the 
barbarians come swarming in, but the Marine with Rifle-4 still is better.
			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:15:49 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

I have had two trouble reports concern this new database.

1) It doesn't work.

2) It dosn't work.

Number 1 was solved by making sure the filename extension was 
gdb before trying to use it and not exe and trying to run it (browser 
issue).

Number 2 was solved by using the latest version of GCM (1.20.00).  
The new database takes advantage of some features in it.  GCM is 
backwards compatible ... not forwards compatible (when I figure out 
how to make a program forward compatible, you guys will never 
hear from me again.  I'll be too busy counting my money!! ;))

Now about this Astrogator problem, everybody who is having 
problems, email me off line.  I will fix your problem.  I never 
intended to hurt anyone (sounds like a C&W song).


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:29:28 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Granfather

In a message dated 4/8/99 9:37:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was jumping to
 >some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket universe.  I
 >still think that a pinched off pocket universe would have some sort of a
 >gravitic anomoly associated with it and thus the gravitic hook thing
 >still applies.
 
 Was this a published adventure?  The only thing I know about Grandfather is
 the little blurb in GT...
  >>

It's the CT LBB Adventure#12 "Secret of the Ancients"

I always thought that that SOMEBODY should reprint these adventures (#1-13, 
and double adv. 1-6). I wish SJG would since they are doing the approriate 
period with GURPS and it appears that T5 will cover a much earlier period.

CT LBB's are fairly easy to get (In a year and a half; I completed my GDW CT 
collection and a big chunk of MT and some DGP odds and ends. I'm still 
looking for some things, but money's tight now...). You can find them on Ebay 
(watch out for overcharges and scams), USENET's rec.games.FRP.marketplace, 
and one of our own: Sworldworlder's web site....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 99 17:50:09 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: re Skill Specialization

On 04/09/99 at 05:50 PM,  AveNelso@aol.com said:


> Isn't this exactly how Gun Cmbat works in T4?   If you have Rifle-5,
> you automatcially have Pistol-4, Shotgun-4, SMG-4.   

That's my understanding.

>It makes the
>putting  skill points into more than one type of Gun Combat during
>character  generation not a good idea, but it is easier to improve
>the lower level ones  than the higher one during actual play.

Well, it just seems to me that all the other skills being 1 less is
too close as skill levels go up.  Maybe divide by two would work
better.  This would give players a reason to put a point or two into
a second weapon...or a related skill in another group.


Example: 

During char gen the two characters get...
    A                   B
  Rifle-5             Rifle-0
  Pistol-2            Pistol-4
  Shotgun-4           Shotgun-0
  SMG-0               SMG-1

Rifle and Pistol are the high skills in the groups so we figure
Rifle/2, dn = 2,  and Pistol/2, dn = 2.
Now you adjust based on the specialties...
    A                    B
  Rifle-5              Rifle-0+2
  Pistol-2+2           Pistol-4
  Shotgun-4+2          Shotgun-0+2
  SMG-0+2              SMG-1+2
  
Giving a final totals of...
    A                    B
  Rifle-5  (5)         Rifle-2 (0)
  Pistol-4 (2)         Pistol-4 (4)
  Shotgun-6 (4)        Shotgun-2 (0)
  SMG-2 (0)            SMG-3 (1)
  
The skill with the greatest number in (), the actual number for that
weapon, is always the one that you divide by two and add to the
others.  So, if in Example A, the Shotgun skill was ever improved to
6 it would become the one the others derived from.

Just an idea.

Eris
  
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:52:52 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Drop Tanks (Long)

I've had a couple of random thoughts about Drop Tanks:
<Disclaimer:  None of these examples are meant to be in-depth analyses>

Economics:  Store A sells a gallon of milk for $2.00
                       Store B sells a gallon of milk for $4.00

We might think that Store A will drive Store B out of business in short
order, however this is not the case.  Store A (also known as a Wal-Mart
SuperCenter) thrives and so does Store B (aka 7-11 Convenience Store), since
economics is only part of the equation.  Other factors play a role in the
success or failure of a store (or economic concern).

Market Forces:

The advantage of having a superior Technology does not always translate to
success in the marketplace.  Real Life(tm) is full of examples in which a
better technology was defeated due to marketing , consumer
demand/perception, installed base, or whatever.  The Nintendo Gameboy is a
good example. The Atari Jaguar and Sega Game Gear were both technologically
superior products.  (The GameBoy was obsolescent when it debuted, IMO)
However, Nintendo was able to take a large share of the market through
advertising, name recognition, and product support (game titles).

Infrastructure:

If Drop Tanks require Jump Stations to be used, then we also have problems
associated with infrastructure.  Aside from having them built and
maintained, Jump Stations will become a point where bottle necks could
occur.  This was probably the case with Starports as well, but they are now
part of the existing infrastructure....and presumably well adjusted to
specific traffic patterns

General:

Even if Drop Tanks are proven to have significant economic benefits, many
other forces will determine when and whether Drop Tanks are prevalent.  For
instance, I can imagine that any business that would lose money or market
share to Drop Tanks will be very aggressive in discrediting them, delaying
their introduction, and even worse, if not restrained by conscience or law.
Another problem might be that the public perceives them as dangerous it
would be difficult to build liners with Drop Tanks, as no one will travel on
them.  Vast conspiracies, bad luck, public apathy, conservatism, liberalism,
political climate, will all come together and have an effect on the adoption
or rejection of Drop Tanks.  Each GM will have to determine which forces
determine the outcome.


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 18:51:52 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: MISC: ShoreCon '99

Tal Meta wrote:
> 
> Greetings.
> 
> I'm the RPG coordinator for ShoreCon '99, which will be held on
> September 9-12 1999 at the Hilton in Cherry Hill, NJ. In that capacity,
> I'm looking for GMs (and players, too) for RPG events at the convention.
> 
> 

Hey, This one is CLOSE! I know that there are a number of Travellers in
NJ and Philadelphia. How about the rest? Anyone coming in for this one?
Let's plan a get together!
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:01:03 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:03:41 +0100, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

>Just taking a step back from your current debate - couldn't drop tanks be
>likened to Concorde in the RW?
>
>Expensive to produce (comparatively to standard aircraft)
>Faster (longer range in Traveller terms)
>Public failure (eg the Russian equivalent which failed at an Airshow)
>Small number of adoptees (Air France and BA)
>
>Concorde has been around 20-30 years now and I don't see a rush by
>manufacturers or airlines to buy equivalents.

There really isn't any reason why the drop tanks described should
be either expensive or non-reusable.

I suppose one could arbitrarily say they are and wave your hands
about reasoning.  However, I always thought that introducing a
new technology and then saddling it with all sorts of arbitrary
constraints to be very hokey.  A PC looks at a technology that
is presenented as being for a specific purpose, he then sees
all sorts of other uses but each time there is some arbitrary
handwave that it won't work for those.  To me that is always
tranparently contrived and makes thing feel unrealistic.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 16:10:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Grav ball t-shirt

I've forgotten who was doing the grav ball tshirt, and I didn't bookmark
the web site.  I did, however, find my copy of the game, and it's clear
that the players must wear armor:  "Physical contact and injuries are
part of the game, so much so, in fact, that all the players are
armored."  Grav Ball rules, at 3.  Moreover, the armor contains powerful
electromagnets and a gyroscopically-stabilized internal guidance system
that facilitates movement and allows movement other than just bouncing
off the walls and each other.  Id.

I have a copy of the rules and will be happy to snail mail a copy of the
cover illustration (and maybe a picture of Heartless Huey, the
head-busting robot) to our esteemed t-shirt artist.  Just email me your
postal address.

- --Glenn
gmgoffin@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:58:12 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

In a message dated 4/9/99 12:58:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pnewman@alaska.net writes:

<<  Therefor she tends to be rather conservative in her own fashion
 choices so as not to draw attention to them.   >>

Don't forget that GT shows what appears to be a formal portrait of the 
Empress (and this looks like something that came from DGP sources...It has 
that style...) and she's wearing what looks like a military general/flag 
officer's uniform. I don't remember canon saying anything about her career, 
although the eldest daughter of a senior sector duke can be considered to 
probably have had a QUITE accomplished career. Maybe she as a retired officer 
is pushing for the wearing of uniforms at court? 

Historians considered Napoleon to have made a major morale mistake during the 
beginning of the hundred days campaign, when he addressed his Guard wearing 
his Imperial robes, rather than his famous green Old Guard Dragoon uniform...

Ob Trav: What IS protocol for retired military personel? Can they wear their 
uniforms, or is that reserved for active duty only? If so; can they wear 
ribbons and/or medals on their civilian clothing...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 18:37:24 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

At 09:27 AM 4/9/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Off the wall Trivia question:
>
>   Is there such a thing as Government Code "M" 
>   If so what is it?
>
>
>:)
>  Will
>
>
Government type M is Aslan Vassal clan control.  The world is controlled
(but not owned) by a vassal clan in fief to a larger clan.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 18:41:45 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)

At 09:43 AM 4/9/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>>>I think the OTU canonical reference to empty space jumping was jumping to
>>>some location where Grandfather had pinched off a pocket universe.  I
>>>still think that a pinched off pocket universe would have some sort of a
>>>gravitic anomoly associated with it and thus the gravitic hook thing
>>>still applies.
>>
>
>Twilights peak mention that Gyro Cadiz and friends made several jumps to
>empty space (which IMO was phrased as something scary for the crew). I
>think jumps to empty space is Canon but that there should be rules that
>make jumping to/from empty space harder ie more likely to produce misjumps.
>The main reason for this I think comes from the numerous mentions of
>"mains". Why consider mains important if a J1 ship with extra fuel can
>bridge a 2 paresc gap without problem?
>
>Either disallow deepspace jumps (cool, nobody knows what's really out there
>but sligthly non-canon) or make deepspace jumps harder.
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
I would make jumping to deep space a normal jump (no extra difficulty).
OTOH, jumping from deep space is a bit more tricky, because you do not have
any exact reference to where you are.  In a star system, you have a star
and planets within a couple of AU to get a reference from, in deep space
you don't.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:59:54 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

In a message dated 4/9/99 6:27:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< 
 Now about this Astrogator problem, everybody who is having 
 problems, email me off line.  I will fix your problem.  I never 
 intended to hurt anyone (sounds like a C&W song).
  >>
The only problem I have is a not big enough computer...I'm running a 16 meg 
system a 133 mhz...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:55:50 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deckplans

Good stuff!!! Took me 20mins to d/l but it was worth it. With a little 
practice I should be rendering all kinds o' goodies! I'm going back for the 
extras...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 20:22:33 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: re Skill Specialization

In a message dated 4/9/99 6:58:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:

<< iving a final totals of...
     A                    B
   Rifle-5  (5)         Rifle-2 (0)
   Pistol-4 (2)         Pistol-4 (4)
   Shotgun-6 (4)        Shotgun-2 (0)
   SMG-2 (0)            SMG-3 (1)
   
 The skill with the greatest number in (), the actual number for that
 weapon, is always the one that you divide by two and add to the
 others.  So, if in Example A, the Shotgun skill was ever improved to
 6 it would become the one the others derived from.
  >>

	I  like it, except I would  make it so that any improvement from 
another skill could not raise a skill beyond the highest skill in the 
category:

		i.e.,  since the guy has Rifle-5, the Shotgun skill could not 
be raised above 5 by the "high skill effect"

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 20:46:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*

Well, after a month & a half hiatus, I'm back.  I state categorically for the 
record that I *HATE* computers!!!!!!!  <grin>

But foolishly, I had a massive multiple hardware failure here that took me 
awhile to figure out and fix.  *NOT FUN*.  But I'm back now.

Who missed me??

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:02:38 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*

> Well, after a month & a half hiatus, I'm back.  I state categorically for
the
> record that I *HATE* computers!!!!!!!  <grin>
>
> But foolishly, I had a massive multiple hardware failure here that took me
> awhile to figure out and fix.  *NOT FUN*.  But I'm back now.

Well, based on the evidence, I'd have to say they hate you back!  :)

Welcome back.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:05:06 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #419

Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:40:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Truth Machines

"John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> wrote:
>TL 14 versions exist, which are likely very similar to Blade Runner
>Voitcomp units (or however those things are spelled).

Voigt-Kampf Test if I remember the book correctly.

Dom

Just happended to have Westwood's Blade Runner game handy on my
computer desk. It is Voigt-Kampff with an extra f. Good game by the way.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 01:09:18 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Mora info in Far Trader

On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:31:32 -0400, Terry Mixon
<tlmixon@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On page 135, Mora has a trade classification of cx. What the heck 
>is that? A misprint or just not supposed to be there.

Cx is the "trade code" for Sector Capital (Cp is _Sub_sector
Capital).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:53:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

In mail you write:

> At 01:46 AM 4/9/99 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>There's a "random hex selection" trick used for something else in
>>several of the old CT modules (for generating star locations as a ship
>>explores "unknown" territory) that assigns 2 digit numbers [1-6][1-6]
>>to a pattern of hexes 6 hexes across. I wonder if something like that
>>could be done for misjumps, just to make them a bit more random. 
>>
>>If I design it, I'll have to borrow a friend's scanner to scan the
>>resulting diagram. :-)

>                 That is the Aslan Alien Module (AM#?).  I have it, if you
> would like to see that chart and the assoc rules....

I've got it. It's also in the Zhodani module and a couple other places.
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:43:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

In mail you write:

>>That's a lotta dice rolling. IIRC, the rules (probably TNE and CT which
>>I usually remember best) say roll one d6 for direction, and then 1d6 *
>>d6 for distance, so it is in a straight line.
>>
>>In fact, that makes sense, since all other jumps, mis or otherwise are
>>in a stright line.
>
> The only problem I have with that is that what systems you'd end up
> arriving in depends on the hexgrid which at least IMTU is an arbitrary
> mapping thing.

Well, I seem to recall an additional roll to determine how far
"sideways" you go.

Here's a chart showing the odds of misjumping to various distances,
based on the roll for number of dice to roll for distance.
(ie distance = (1d6)d6 )

There are 279936 possible rolls.

hexes	chance	percentage
- -----	------	----------------
 1	 7776	2.77777777777778
 2	 9072	3.24074074074074
 3	10584	3.78086419753086
 4	12348	4.41100823045267
 5	14406	5.14617626886145
 6	16807	6.0038723136717
 7	11832	4.22668038408779
 8	12507	4.46780692729767
 9	13076	4.67106767261088
10	13482	4.81610082304527
11	13650	4.87611454046639
12	13482	4.81610082304527
13	12852	4.59104938271605
14	12897	4.60712448559671
15	12772	4.56247142203932
16	12453	4.44851680384088
17	11928	4.26097393689986
18	11207	4.00341506630087
19	10332	3.69084362139918
20	 9387	3.35326646090535
21	 8292	2.96210562414266
22	 7101	2.5366512345679
23	 5880	2.10048010973937
24	 4697	1.67788351623228
25	 3612	1.29029492455418
26	 2667	0.952717764060357
27	 1876	0.670153177869227
28	 1251	0.446887860082305
29	  786	0.280778463648834
30	  462	0.165037722908093
31	  252	0.0900205761316872
32	  126	0.0450102880658436
33	   56	0.0200045724737083
34	   21	0.0075017146776406
35	    6	0.00214334705075446
36	    1	0.000357224508459076

Definitely an odd shaped curve. 

- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 18:15:46 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures (and Fashion)

At 10:28 PM 4/8/99 -0400, AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
>	The question about fashion got me thinking.   I have two adventures 
>written up and in both of them various patrons or businessmen are described 
>as wearing outrageous jumpsuits of one form or another.    Actually, if 
>anyone would like a copy of these adventures e-mail me and I'll send them to 
>you (in RTF). They are:
>
[synopsis of humorous adventures, snipped}

Perhaps you could submit them to Freelance Traveller? I know Jeff Zeitlan
(sp?) is always looking for new material...	

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:01:49 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Gearheads

Is there a mailing list for gearheads?
If so, how do I join? (I intend to do some serious lurking for a bit)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:55:57 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Designing Robots

Having only played Traveller in the past, I now find myself in the position
of needing to design a few large agricultural robots. I am looking at three
different robots at TL11, powered by Fusion+, using contragrav tech.
The functions of these robots are:

a. Harvester and trailer
b. Planter and trailer, and
c. Crop duster.

I am not asking for designs, but would like someone to talk me through
designing one of these for my own use. I am happy to share results. Please
email me privately, as I do not want to waste space on the TML or annoy more
experienced readers.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:17:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

> > Well, after a month & a half hiatus, I'm back.  I state categorically for
> the
> > record that I *HATE* computers!!!!!!!  <grin>
> >
> > But foolishly, I had a massive multiple hardware failure here that took me
> > awhile to figure out and fix.  *NOT FUN*.  But I'm back now.
> 
> Well, based on the evidence, I'd have to say they hate you back!  :)

No doubt.  I wonder if a Mod9/fib that got infected with a Peacemaker would 
hate me as much as my AMD does.  <grin>
 
> Welcome back.

Fangs.

Keven

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #428
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 429



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)
Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: [Debate] Dilgaadin 3 resp various
Re: Imperial Fashion
Re: Imperial Fashions 
Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: Grav ball t-shirt
Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)
[OT] Second call for submissions and commentary - Starship Showcase
Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)
Re: Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)
Re: Granfather
Re: re Skill Specialization
Drop Tanks Redux

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:52:27 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

>
> Here's a chart showing the odds of misjumping to various distances,
> based on the roll for number of dice to roll for distance.
> (ie distance = (1d6)d6 )
>
> There are 279936 possible rolls.
>
> hexes   chance  percentage
>
>  5      14406   5.14617626886145
>  6      16807   6.0038723136717  <---------
>  7      11832   4.22668038408779
>

Is it just a coincidence that the most likely jump distance is the same as
the maximum "controlled" jump limit?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:58:28 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)

>
> I would make jumping to deep space a normal jump (no extra difficulty).
> OTOH, jumping from deep space is a bit more tricky, because you do not have
> any exact reference to where you are.  In a star system, you have a star
> and planets within a couple of AU to get a reference from, in deep space
> you don't.

It isn't a matter of jumping into deep space.  Its jumping to a specific point
in deep space that is tricky.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:19:19 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)

Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> >
> > I would make jumping to deep space a normal jump (no extra difficulty).
> > OTOH, jumping from deep space is a bit more tricky, because you do not have
> > any exact reference to where you are.  In a star system, you have a star
> > and planets within a couple of AU to get a reference from, in deep space
> > you don't.
> 
> It isn't a matter of jumping into deep space.  Its jumping to a specific point
> in deep space that is tricky.

Interesting point.  Could gravitics technology be used to build a "jump
beacon" on a deep space site, that would assist jumping ships in exiting
jumpspace in the desired area, by artificially precipitating a ship from
jumpspace?  Or would an immense "bubble" of some material, filled with
gas at pressures barely greater than the vacuum of deep space, be more
effective?

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 19:28:59 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com

> Ob Trav: What IS protocol for retired military personel? Can they wear their 
> uniforms, or is that reserved for active duty only? If so; can they wear 
> ribbons and/or medals on their civilian clothing...

In my Traveller universe, honorably discharged veterans of the Imperial
Scouts, Navy, Army, and Marines (member states have their own laws about
their veterans) are permitted to wear their full dress uniform to any
appropriate occasion.  Upon discharge, they are given a final
decoration, the Honorable Service Badge (also sometimes called the
honorable discharge badge), which they are required to wear whenever
they wear their uniform.  The HSB is a silver square, 3cm x 3cm, worn
with a point up, on the right breast.  Its center is a 1cm square hole,
representing the door out of service -- and that the door is always open
to reenlist, to be recalled in times of emergency (especially detached
duty Scouts), or to volunteer to help the Imperium.

"Appropriate occasions" include virtually any formal military,
political, academic, or cultural event.  

Undress uniform (also called utilities, fatigues, BDUs) without insignia
is commonly sold as surplus (especially to newly colonized worlds) and
may be worn by anyone.  Persons mustering out of service customarily
keep their own undress uniform(s), with subdued cloth insignia, and sew
a white (or sometimes black) diamond shape like the the HSB on their
right breast pockets.  It is technically a violation of Imperial law
(see regulations governing uniformed services) to wear an undress
uniform with Imperial insignia, but no veteran wearing a cloth or metal
HSB on their own undress has ever been prosecuted.  

If a PC, after mustering out, wants to buy cloth armor, I will generally
give him or her a difficult task roll to see if he or she was able to
"boost" BDUs made of cloth while still in service.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:05:00 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Debate] Dilgaadin 3 resp various

Jeff,

		I take it that the debate is over.    I was wondering what 
you had decided to do with it?

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:42:24 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

>What's pragmatic ship dress?  It tends to be comfortable (my starships
>tend to run a little cold, like C.J. Cherryh's),

Just a minor quibble here, surely most ships should tend to run uncomfortably
warm
due to the diffculty of losing heat in a vacuum ?

Of course. I have an ulterior motive for this.

It means people running round in their underwear or less, a' la Alien or 2001,
is quite common, at least on small ships. It means wearing one's vaccsuit all
the time is damn uncomfortable, making it less likely that PC's will claim
they are  wearing it whenever disaster strikes. It means wearing full dress
uniform and suits is also uncomfortable.

Soft cotton  vests/tee-shirts and matching pants are the most common ship
board wear. IMTU

Needless to say,  I enjoyed the opening sequence of the film Barbarella.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:32:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions 

> > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> 
> > Ob Trav: What IS protocol for retired military personel? Can they wear their 
> > uniforms, or is that reserved for active duty only? If so; can they wear 
> > ribbons and/or medals on their civilian clothing...
> 
> In my Traveller universe, honorably discharged veterans of the Imperial
> Scouts, Navy, Army, and Marines (member states have their own laws about
> their veterans) are permitted to wear their full dress uniform to any
> appropriate occasion.  Upon discharge, they are given a final
> decoration, the Honorable Service Badge (also sometimes called the
> honorable discharge badge), which they are required to wear whenever
> they wear their uniform.  The HSB is a silver square, 3cm x 3cm, worn
> with a point up, on the right breast.  Its center is a 1cm square hole,
> representing the door out of service -- and that the door is always open
> to reenlist, to be recalled in times of emergency (especially detached
> duty Scouts), or to volunteer to help the Imperium.
> 
> "Appropriate occasions" include virtually any formal military,
> political, academic, or cultural event.  

IMTU, the Imperium doesn't have a one way or another, however, there *are* 
laws against impersonating Imperial personnel.  <grin>

In the Principality of Caledon, IMTU, *anybody* who recieves an MCUF, MCG, or 
SEH-equivilent *must* wear a copy of it on their *civilian* formal wear, 
simular to the laws of the old Soviet Union concerning the various Order of 
Lenins and their display after the person recieving them is honorably 
discharged from military service.  Simular laws exist in the Duchy of Marlheim 
and the Carrillian Assembly.
 
> If a PC, after mustering out, wants to buy cloth armor, I will generally
> give him or her a difficult task roll to see if he or she was able to
> "boost" BDUs made of cloth while still in service.  

Nifty idea.  I'll 'packrat' that one...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:40:22 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)

Black ICE wrote:

> Joe Pettit wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I would make jumping to deep space a normal jump (no extra difficulty).
> > > OTOH, jumping from deep space is a bit more tricky, because you do not have
> > > any exact reference to where you are.  In a star system, you have a star
> > > and planets within a couple of AU to get a reference from, in deep space
> > > you don't.
> >
> > It isn't a matter of jumping into deep space.  Its jumping to a specific point
> > in deep space that is tricky.
>
> Interesting point.  Could gravitics technology be used to build a "jump
> beacon" on a deep space site, that would assist jumping ships in exiting
> jumpspace in the desired area, by artificially precipitating a ship from
> jumpspace?  Or would an immense "bubble" of some material, filled with
> gas at pressures barely greater than the vacuum of deep space, be more
> effective?

I don't believe that standard gravitics would work (although the TL 21 jump damper
would).

Matter warps space-time which produces a side effect of gravity.   I think that
gravitics produce gravity simulating accelerations through some other means.  Its
the warping of space-time that precipitates you out of jumpspace.

As proof of canonicity, if gravitics could yank you out of jumpspace, then no ship
may have operating artificial gravity during a jump.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:05:32 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

>  Now about this Astrogator problem, everybody who is having 
>  problems, email me off line.  I will fix your problem.  I never 
>  intended to hurt anyone (sounds like a C&W song).
>   >>
> The only problem I have is a not big enough computer...I'm running a 16
> meg system a 133 mhz...

Yes, that will be a problem.  I would suggest deleting all sectors 
except for one and all Allegiances except for the ones you are using.

You can turn off the refresh and the map section of the screen 
before you load the datafile.  You can definately fit the db in 16 meg 
of ram.  The picture is what takes so many resources.

Hope this helps and let me know how it turns out.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:54:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Grav ball t-shirt

On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> I've forgotten who was doing the grav ball tshirt, and I didn't bookmark
> the web site.  I did, however, find my copy of the game,

Could you post the relevant data about the game, such as who made it, so I
could try to find a used copy of it?

That was a great game!

Brannon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 01:12:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)

On 04/09/99 at 01:41 AM,  "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> said:

>> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>

>> Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

>Sure, all of us have I would think, as have Loren Wiseman and Marc
>Miller.  Compare the skills in Book 1: Characters and Combat with
>those of Book 4: Mercenary and Book 5: High Guard.  There is a much
>higher level of specialization reflected in the later books.  

I took Michael's question a different way, but your take is just as
interesting.  ;->

>I tend not to specialize skills any more than Megatraveller does for
>PCs, unless they want to be in a specific campaign setting where it
>would make sense and enhance the game.  For example, in a medical
>campaign, the characters might all have med-3 or med-4, but then they
>would have specializations in trauma, infectious diseases, etc.  If
>they're faced with a problem outside their specialty, they can
>probably figure it out, but it might take longer than the specialist,
>use resources less efficiently, etc.  

The MT or TNE scope of skills seems about right to me, with a few
exceptions.  In all versions of Traveller, the skills associated
with Doctors, Engineers and Stewards have been too broad, IMO.

Breaking Medical, Engineering and Steward into four or five skills
adds a chance for a little specialization without going to the
extreme of a skill for *every* activity.

I think it might make sense to have a broad skill that serves as a
primary with specializations clustered under it.  For quick task
resolution and in a lot of general play you'd just use the general
or primary skill, but you'd also have the specializations for the
situations where you might want to use them. 

Take the Medical skill, for example.  

  Medical
    Diagnosis
    Physician
    Medical Electronics
    Trauma Care
    Surgery    

Now, I know Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Psychology and probably
several other skills are important for Medic/Doctor type characters,
but just for now let's work with this group.

Somehow, and I'm not entirely clear in my head how to work this <g>,
you would get a Medical skill which would be used for general
medicine tasks, but also gives *some* sort of specialization.
Maybe, it would work to assign two or three points to the
specializations of the players choice, with the proviso that no
specialization can exceed the general skill?

Example:

To become a licensed MD Joe has to get a have at least a 1 in all
the specializations.  He wants to specialize in Surgery, so he'll
concentrate there as best he can.

Joe completes Medical School receiving, among other things a
Medical-3, and 6 or 9 specializations. He distributes them.

  with 2 to 1                   with 3 to 1

  Medical-3                     Medical-3               
    Diagnosis-1                   Diagnosis-2           
    Physician-1                   Physician-1           
    Medical Electronics-1         Medical Electronics-1 
    Trauma Care-1                 Trauma Care-2         
    Surgery-2                     Surgery-3             

During his first term after Medical School, Joe works mainly in an
Emergency Room.  He gets another Medical skill and puts
specializations into Trauma Care, but he finds a way to continue
working on his Surgical specialty as well.

  Medical-4                     Medical-4               
    Diagnosis-1                   Diagnosis-2           
    Physician-1                   Physician-1           
    Medical Electronics-1         Medical Electronics-1 
    Trauma Care-2                 Trauma Care-4         
    Surgery-3                     Surgery-4             

During Joe's next term he continues his work in the hospital,
receiving another Medical.  He was working as a general surgeon, so
he can add to his Surgical skill, but he also works on his Diagnosis
and Physician skills.
 
  Medical-5                     Medical-5               
    Diagnosis-2                   Diagnosis-3           
    Physician-1                   Physician-2           
    Medical Electronics-1         Medical Electronics-1 
    Trauma Care-2                 Trauma Care-4         
    Surgery-4                     Surgery-5             

Geeze, this might work!  That 3 to 1 looks pretty good.  What do you
think?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:22:04 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: [OT] Second call for submissions and commentary - Starship Showcase

About The Starship Showcase Website

~ So there we were, a few us just sitting around #traveller, having a
few adult beverages (Earl Grey for me) when I decided to bring up Seth's
idea about doing a big starship show. The gist of the idea was, "Hey,
you know how they have these big boat shows and car shows and even house
shows where the best and flashiest models are rounded up and displayed,
well..." ~

I AM PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE that we are now accepting applications from
those shipbuilding firms who wish to display their wares. This site will
display your best one or two ship designs. The requirements are that
they be complete, meaning that there be at least:

One exterior graphic view - line drawings through ray-traced 3D
holographics accepted

Deck Plans - 2D, 3D, 4D, your choice

Design stats - any design system or level of detail accepted

This means that if you are big into deck plans, but don't do exterior
pix, that you may want to team up with someone who makes pretty
pictures. Collaborative designs may be the best. We are hoping to see
several small craft, as well.  They will be displayed at
http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/ssw_trav/ , which is being administered
(graciously) by Michel Vaillancourt. You can submit your completed
entries to him at ssw.trav@atlantic-online.ns.ca.

BTW, the designs that are on display now are very nice, very nice
indeed.  Where are the cheesy submissions?  Hey, this is Traveller,
here!  The Monty Haul Shipyards have put out more designs than most
firms ever thought of.  I want some CHEESE with my whine, eh?


 V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
 Leader of the Border Rebellion
 ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
- ---------------------------------------------
www.downport.com
The Traveller domain

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 01:26:14 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)

On 04/09/99 at 09:56 AM,  Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:

>>My personal opinion is that official
>>supplements shouldn't explain things in *too* much detail so we can
>>all continue to add our own explanations.

        I could not agree more.  I think one of the best things about the
>LBBs was that they were a great framework, but had enough airflow that it
>wouldn't choke me.  Every TU will be a little bit different, or at least I
>hope so...  That's part of the point of an RPG, I think.

Thank you Michel. ;->

I started playing back in late 77 when Traveller *was* the 3 LBB's
and there wasn't anything except a *very* general framework.  I
enjoyed all the suppliments and JOTAS articles that built up the
Imperium, but I never set my games in what became the OTU.  As CT
turned into MT it got much harder to use anything from GDW without
also using their universe..at least for me.  I don't oppose having
an OTU, but I still implore Marc, Loren and the BITS folks to make
the books them write general enough so, as Michel put it, "it
wouldn't choke me."

Eris,
    and *that* is what makes me a heretic ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:29:43 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Truth Machines? (was Imperial Justice)

>These machines work on the premise that all or at least most humans show
>the same physiological traits when lying, something that is fairly hard to
>believe.

Considering the low reliability of eyewitness reports in crime
investigations, even the ability to accurately detect whether someone
really believes their own story will not likely revolutionize
intelligence-gathering.

>Ob Trav: There is (if memory serves me right) sort of a canon truth-machine
>that showed up in GDWs Murder at Arcturus Station. I don't remember the TL
>of the machine but it couldn't be all that high as truth drugs (canon for
>shure) effectively eliminate that need for truth-machines.

That, plus telepathy.

>BTW How does other refs play the use of truth drugs?

IMTU truth drugs put the user into a compliant, unagressive mood. For the
reasons above it is not overly valuable to investigations and, IMTU, more
often used for romantic seductions.

>In my justice system most courts allow a defendant/witness to voluntarily
>take truth drug which tend to increase the weight of your testimonial but
>that you're never required to do so.

This sounds reasonable.

>The Naval intelligence community has a
>special virus which they give their agents that will kill them whenever
>they are subjected to truth drug.

This does not. The life of an intelligence operative is very valuable and
should not be discarded so unnecessarily. Also, Survival Margin mentioned
necropathic probes which can recover mental impressions from dead bodies.

Why not use a virus which just counteracts the drug? IMTU, criminals and
intelligence agents are routinely given only the information required to
complete their mission, and never told anything that could implicate
others. This counteracts truth machines, psionic probes, and even double
agents.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:57:48 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Granfather

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
: I always thought that that SOMEBODY should reprint these adventures
(#1-13,
: and double adv. 1-6). I wish SJG would since they are doing the
approriate
: period with GURPS and it appears that T5 will cover a much earlier
period.

Marc mentioned doing some reprints with all of the Sups in one book, all
of the Adventures in another, etc. for the classic material.  This
sounds like a great silver anniversary project.  I wonder if Marc is
looking for a crusty old CT dude (or dudette) to take on the project?


       V.Adm. Michael, SWN-GF
    Leader of the Border Rebellion
  ~Herald of the CT Resurgence~

_________hosted_by___________
          www.downport.com
 A domain for Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 02:40:19 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: re Skill Specialization

On 04/09/99 at 08:22 PM,  AveNelso@aol.com said:

>    A                    B
>   Rifle-5  (5)         Rifle-2 (0)
>   Pistol-4 (2)         Pistol-4 (4)
>   Shotgun-6 (4)        Shotgun-2 (0)
>   SMG-2 (0)            SMG-3 (1)
>   
> The skill with the greatest number in (), the actual number for that
> weapon, is always the one that you divide by two and add to the
> others.  So, if in Example A, the Shotgun skill was ever improved to
> 6 it would become the one the others derived from.


>	I  like it, except I would  make it so that any improvement from 
>another skill could not raise a skill beyond the highest skill in the
> category:

Good point and I think I agree.  Whatever the highest specific level
in the group is that is the highest any skill in the group can be.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:26:46 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Drop Tanks Redux

OK, one Drop Freighter coming up. It's a modifed 8 kton Decafreighter,
built under FFS2.

******************************************************************


FFS2 TL9-15 OctaDropFreighter (the 'Mongerel Dog' class - can someone give
me that in French ?)

8000 dton Short Cylinder (52m long, 52m diameter ; 12921.4 m2)

3 cm Light Ceramic Composite hull (388 m3, 2326t, MCr 3.5) <AF 21>

122 m3 Hi Auto Controls (122m3, 13t, MCr 1)

Large Stateroom (56 m3, 4t, MCr 0.1)

12 Small Stateroom (336 m3, 26t, MCr 0.1)

50 bunks (700 m3, 25t, MCr 0.1)

20 bridgestations (280 m3, 4t, MCr 0.2)

35 crewstations (315 m3, 10t, MCr 0.1)

40 person Full Galley (12m3, 4t, MCr 0.1)

10 Sanitary Facilites (35 m3, 0.5t, MCr 0.1)

10 Standard Airlocks (30 m3, 2t, MCr 0.1)

1000 m2 Cargo Hatch (MCr 1)

Type III Life Support (896 m3, 896t, MCr 56) <23 MW demand >

<Hull and fittings built at Gitosy (Spinward Marches 2918 , B000676-9) >

1G Compensation (1120 m3, 22.4t, MCr 56) <784 MW demand>

TL10 Sens 13 PEMS (4m3, 2t, MCr 10)

TL10 Sens 14 LIDAR (5m3, 10t, MCr 5)

Misc Electronics (1 m3, 1t, MCr 1) <radio, laser comm, stuff like that>

< G-comp, Sensors and electronics built at Quopist (Spinward Marches 2215
(B150679-A) >

TL10 13232 MW Fusion Plant (6600 m3, 26 400t, MCr 1320 <nb TL10 ; 32 free
MW from
Scale Efficiency >

<Fusion plant built on Bevy (Spinward Marches 3216) ; D4209CC-A >

Sickbay (112 m3, 50t, MCr 5)

3x CP 5/CM 0.2 computers (21 m3, 0.42t, MCr 2) built on Rhylanor

Jump-6 (7840 m3, 23520t, MCr 2352) <demands 12096 MW>

<Sickbays, jump drive and computers installed on Rhylanor (Spinward Marches
2716) ;
A434934-F, and paid for with *very* hard credits >

800 000 kN T-plates (2000 m3, 8000t, MCr 500) <power demand 2000 MW ;
T-plates built on
Equus (Spinward Marches 2417 ; B55A858-B ) >

Six 6ton Imperial Standard turrets, each holding one  650 megajoule 24x60
ROF laser units (504 m3, 693t and costing MCr 18.6 (the infamous Mil-Spec
Famile Spofulam 'Signature' class Heavy Rapid Fire Lasers. Built on the FS
facility on Efate (Spinward Marches 1705 ; A646930-D ... note Law Level.
Efate holds out against The Man. Power demand is 370 MW each at max ROF, a
total of 2220 MW)

6450 dtons cargo (90300 m3, 90 300t)

Loaded Mass : 152311t ; 0.52 gees at full thrust

Total Costs :

Rhylanor (A-F) Imperial credits ; MCr 2379 (nb the Rhylanor credit trades
at parity with the ICr)
Giotsy (B-9) credits ; MCr 63
Bevy (D-A) credits ; MCr 1320
Quopist (B-A) credits ; MCr 82
Equus (B-B) credits ; MCr 500
Efate (A-D) credits ; MCr 18.6

Crew : 63 total - 8 Command, 8 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 14 Maintainence, 20
Engineering, 4 Medical, 6 Stewards/Gunners (Captain gets large stateroom,
officers get singles, everyone else gets a bunk and *likes* it)

Unlike the venerable Decafreighter class, namby-pamby facilities like
artificial gravity and a galley have been installed. Bloody unionised
Rhylanor jump techs and their OH+S rules.

****************************************************************************
*********

OK. Economics ... lets assume that the builders lost leave of their senses
and paid all the bills in Imperial Credits, rather than in lower value
Equus etc credits. Ship therefore costs MCr 4344 (true cost should be about
IMCr 3350 or so). Note that either heavy political considerations or
Ditzie's drug intake featured heavily in the choice of components - mere
efficiency would indicate buying a TL15 power plant from Rhylanor to be the
most efficient method.

To earn an acceptable 5% rate of return, the ship therefore needs to return
MCr 217 in profit a year. Call it MCr 250 including costs (if paying with
discounted credits, it needs MCr 168 profit, or MCr 195 including costs).

Given 35 trips a year, this means a need for a net revenue of Cr 1110 net
per dton of cargo space (Cr 865 with discounted credits).

Now, we have 6450 dtons of cargo, and a need for 4800 dtons of jump fuel,
so every 1000 Imperial credits we have to pay for Jump Fuel will add ICr
740 to the minimum cargo price we need to charge.

Paying KCr 5 for drop tankage will therefore require us to charge Cr4810
for a jump 6 (Cr 4600 or so with discounted credits).

I'll repeat that number. KCr 5 for a jump-6, assuming you pay 5 kilocredits
a dton for jump fuel in drop tanks. If you are using tankers that charge
KCr 1 per dton for refined jump fuel (and if you allow drop tanks to pump
the fuel into the ship, I cant see the problem with using a tanker to do
the same), then moving that 1 dton lump of whatever six parsecs in one week
will cost you Cr 1850 (passengers in small staterooms take up 2 dtons,
remember).

Now, if these prices are true, then we can take this theory about slow
communication speeds hampering the Imperium, and throw them out the door.
Every major system (and most of the minor ones) *will* be linked by jump-6
drop freighters. 

You know you can link
Efate-Regina-Kkirka-Rhylanor-Natoko-Mora-Isurkin-Vincennes, and a spur line
down from Natoko-Lunion-Sting, with jump-6 ? The fast link from Mora to
Trin goes via empty hex 3239 (using a 100 dton jump-6 News Packet utilising
drop tanks then internal tankage), while the slow one goes Mora-Fens
Gren-Ramiva as jump-5, then a short jump-2 hop to Trin.

Cool. Assuming 7 days in hyperspace and a 2 day wait at each system (moving
in and out for cargo transfer and/or waiting for a tanker), it should mean
that our happy punters in Vincennes get the result of the Duke of Regina's
Own Huscarles' victory at the First Cricket Test against His Excellency's
Gentlemen of the 213th within a round 2 months. In other words, before the
tour is over.

Now, people will certainly argue good old FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and
Doubt. FUD worked really well against the railroads, didnt it ... and we
are talking something as revolutionary, and as profitable.


Ian Whitchurch

PS I did the numbers for an internally-fuelled Mongerel Dog. It carries
1600 dton of cargo, implying a breakeven point of Cr 3500 a dton plus fuel
(call it a rough Cr 750 per parsec) to stay viable at 35 jumps a year.
Hmmmmmmmmmm. We may be in more trouble than I thought. Jump 6 ships are
looking quite economically viable, even with drop tanks neutered via your
favorite method.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #429
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 430



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: drop tanks
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)
Re: Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)
Re: Armor update (was AHL?)
Re: Granfather
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
Re: Imperial Fashions
Drop Tanks GURPS only
Re: Gearheads
Armor and WORLDCons!!  TML'ers BE THERE!!!
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #429
Forward compatible (was Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker)
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Designing Robots
Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:05:27 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote

> pnewman@alaska.net writes: [Re: Emperoress Iolanthe]
> 
> <<  Therefore she tends to be rather conservative in her own fashion
>  choices so as not to draw attention to them.   >>
> 
> Don't forget that GT shows what appears to be a formal portrait of the 
> Empress and she's wearing what looks like a military general/flag 
> officer's uniform. I don't remember canon saying anything about her 
> career, although the eldest daughter of a senior sector duke can be 
> considered to probably have had a QUITE accomplished career. Maybe she 
> as a retired officer is pushing for the wearing of uniforms at court? 

Iolanthe was born in 1052 and married Strephon in 1079, therefore she
was 27 at the time, and Strephon was 30.  Their daughter Ciencia
Iphegenia was born in 1088, when Iolanthe was 36.  I do not believe that
the Emperoress career allows enough time for other activities.  I
suspect that Iolanthes career path was College, Noble, Noble.  In her
second term as a noble Iolanthe had special duty "marry the Emperor" &
got to rise two ranks in her career, from Soc F [daughter of the senior
Duke of the Gushmege Sector] to Soc H [Emperoress].  I note that the
library data says "Her primary avocation is the preservation of
developing cultures within the Imperium."  This could be interepreted as
evidence of a career as a Scout or an Academic but it seems more likely
to me that it is an interest she pursued during her terms as a Noble.

I assumed that the military, or strongly pseudo military, outfit she
wore in GURPS Traveller (pg 43) was the outfit of an outfit that she, as
Emperoress, is the head of - The Emperoress Own Something Or Others.  I
assumed she wore the outfit for this reason.  I suppose that it is
possible she choose to wear the military uniform so that no one would be
able to make fun of her civilian fashion choices but I assumed it was
merely a cynical attempt to dupe the members of the outfit into
believing she actually cared about them.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:56:50 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: drop tanks

>From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
>Subject: Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage

<stuff about using drop tanks on a jump-1 ship snipped>

>It costs an extra Cr14,650 to save 1 week time.

This one week will mean that rather than being able to do Glisten to Trane
and back 6 times a year, you can do it eight and a bit times. This
increases profit a lot, because you are making mroe actual money.

However, I'm confused about the exact case - why in the name of the Credit
Imperial dont you just load the cargo into an A2 and be done with it in one
hit ?

>Now, a trading corporation could have private ships that collect and reuse
>the drop tanks. This could cut Cr30,000 off of each run saving the corp
>about Cr15,000 each time.  (but then their's the cost of the ship that
>collects the drop tanks and other related costs)

Yes, but spaceships are cheaper than starships.

>
>I think most free traders would opt to pick up mid/high passengers and cargo
>to bring to Sorel, Horosho and Trane and make the Cr8,000 to Cr10,000 for
>each passenger. Probably take 6 weeks to get to Trane, but possibly make
>Cr150,000+ from passengers and cargo. (minus expenses of course). That cargo
>that has to arrive in 2 weeks has got to be valuable to make the delivery
>worth while. (Of course, a Far trader will probably come along that will
>take the cargo for less, because it can afford the trip)

This assumes that passenger and freight rates are not at all affected by
distance, an assumption that is right up there with 'Imperial Knights fight
on horses with sabres'.

>
>I think the only way drop tanks could really be used effectively is by large
>corporations. The "little guy" just wouldn't be able to keep up with the
>costs of drop tanks.

Sort of. Little guys could rent them by the hour.

>
>I don't see how drop tanks will make an impact on economics unless the cost
>of drop tanks are greatly reduced. 

See my Drop Tanks Redux post. It really is a signifigant impact.

<stuff snipped>

>How can the existance of drop tanks upset economics? It just isn't
>profitable to use them.

Maybe not on a jump-1 ship.

On the other hand, they make jump 4-6 freight ships a lot more profitable,
which does really mean things to (say) the speed at which people heard
about the death of Strephon.

Plus you get filling stations/jump gates.

>
>On the subject of fuel tankers and jump stations:
>
>Fuel tankers would be the "ultimate" drop tank.
>
>A little inconvientient, the ships have to fly to the tanker instead of to
>"anywhere" outside of 100 diameters.

Well, if the tanker has a Dirty Big Gun, then I'd call it a positive.

>
>Cr500/ton refined
>Cr100/ton unrefined
>
>What's going to be the tankers "surcharge"?
>Maybe Cr1000/ton? (someone has to pay for the delivery of fuel to the
>tanker, pay for the crew, pay for the ship, etc...)

Cr 1000 sounds about right - Cr 350 per dton for the refined fuel, plus
another Cr 350 for the rental on the tanker ship, plus Cr 300 pure
unadulterated profit.

>
>Tankers and jump stations could operate as a replacement for drop tanks, but
>the cost would still be about the same. Drop tanks just allow you to jump
>from anywhere (anywhere normally allowed) instead of having to go to the
>tanker/station.

Either case makes the fuel-tank free freighter viable. And I for one dont
want that.

>On the subject of double-jumps.
>
>What happens to the wear on jump drives if a ship makes several
>"double-jumps"? (when after arriving in system from a jump from drop tanks,
>the ship immediatly jumps again with the fuel in its fuel tanks). Would the
>drives take more wear from "running hot" for several weeks straight? Would
>the chance of misjump increase from not allowing the drives to "cool down"?
>IMTU, double-jumping can increase the dangers of misjump. (+1 on mishap
>table for each consecutive jump, 3 jumps in a row results in +2 on the
>mishap table)

One of my theories is that you need a day to 'cool down' for each 10 years
of effective jump drive age. New, highly tuned Corporate ships can do jump
after jump, while old, tired Free Traders need those 4-5 days in port, just
to allow the quantum vibrations in the zuchai crystals to die down.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:44:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

In mail you write:

>> Here's a chart showing the odds of misjumping to various distances,
>> based on the roll for number of dice to roll for distance.
>> (ie distance = (1d6)d6 )
>>
>> There are 279936 possible rolls.
>>
>> hexes   chance  percentage
>>
>>  5      14406   5.14617626886145
>>  6      16807   6.0038723136717  <---------
>>  7      11832   4.22668038408779
>>
>
> Is it just a coincidence that the most likely jump distance is the same as
> the maximum "controlled" jump limit?

Probably. But you also have to note that while that *is* a "peak" in
the distribution curve, it's not a very prominent one. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:36:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps

>I would make jumping to deep space a normal jump (no extra difficulty).
>OTOH, jumping from deep space is a bit more tricky, because you do not have
>any exact reference to where you are.  In a star system, you have a star
>and planets within a couple of AU to get a reference from, in deep space
>you don't.

Except that you can take bearings on the stars...  And by taking many of
these, you can have an arbitrarily high degree of precision...  Might take
longer though...

IMTU, a deep space jump is just as easy as a gravity well jump...





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
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jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
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WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:46:02 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)

At 01:12 AM 4/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Take the Medical skill, for example.  
>
>  Medical
>    Diagnosis
>    Physician
>    Medical Electronics
>    Trauma Care
>    Surgery    

Coincidentally, the GURPS equivalents to the Medical Skill are:

Diagnosis
Physician
Surgeon
Electronic Operations (Medical)

so SJG, at least, agree with you...  :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 12:02:01 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)

On 04/10/99 at 11:46 AM,  Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> said:

>>  Medical
>>    Diagnosis
>>    Physician
>>    Medical Electronics
>>    Trauma Care
>>    Surgery    

>Coincidentally, the GURPS equivalents to the Medical Skill are:

>Diagnosis
>Physician
>Surgeon
>Electronic Operations (Medical)

>so SJG, at least, agree with you...  :)

No coincidence. ;->  I picked a breakdown that matched GURPS on purpose.

What about the rest of the post?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:44:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

At 08:28 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Not only OK, but I can get officially licensed to produce them and sell them
>to the general public!  Bwwwaaaahhhaaaahhhaaaaaahhhaaaa!!!!
>
>The gun order is a given, you may have to loose a couple pounds to fit in
>the armor >:)    Ok ok, so I need to as well.  Nobody's perfect ;)

Kirsten and I were discussing this over dinner, and she thought of the
wonderful idea of having her dress as a Vilani noblewoman (she loves those
fashions) with six battledressed escorts.

Picture that at BayCon 2000.  "The Lady Estiberrsha wishes to eat.  Now."
*click* hmmmmmmmmmmm.......
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:51:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Granfather

At 06:29 PM 4/9/99 EDT, you wrote:

>I always thought that that SOMEBODY should reprint these adventures (#1-13, 
>and double adv. 1-6). I wish SJG would since they are doing the approriate 
>period with GURPS and it appears that T5 will cover a much earlier period.

Ahh.. Double Adventure 6.  Night of Conquest/Divine Intervention.  Two of
my all time favorite adventures.

Both of these were used for testing ACQ.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:59:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

At 04:05 AM 4/10/99 -0800, you wrote:

>I assumed that the military, or strongly pseudo military, outfit she
>wore in GURPS Traveller (pg 43) was the outfit of an outfit that she, as
>Emperoress, is the head of - The Emperoress Own Something Or Others.

Or it could be that psuedo-military is all the *rage* in the Core in 1120.
Within six months, you'll be seeing high collars and wrist braid at all
those little tacky outlet stores on the frontiers, while the true powers of
fashion will have stuned us again!

Bruce Gridlore
GridTech Apparel Consultant.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:27:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

> At 08:28 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Not only OK, but I can get officially licensed to produce them and sell them
> >to the general public!  Bwwwaaaahhhaaaahhhaaaaaahhhaaaa!!!!
> >
> >The gun order is a given, you may have to loose a couple pounds to fit in
> >the armor >:)    Ok ok, so I need to as well.  Nobody's perfect ;)
> 
> Kirsten and I were discussing this over dinner, and she thought of the
> wonderful idea of having her dress as a Vilani noblewoman (she loves those
> fashions) with six battledressed escorts.
> 
> Picture that at BayCon 2000.  "The Lady Estiberrsha wishes to eat.  Now."
> *click* hmmmmmmmmmmm.......

I can dig it.

Of course the fusion guns the armed escorts will be carrying will be used to cook with, right?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:32:33 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

In a message dated 4/10/99 5:09:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pnewman@alaska.net writes:

<< I assumed that the military, or strongly pseudo military, outfit she
 wore in GURPS Traveller (pg 43) was the outfit of an outfit that she, as
 Emperoress, is the head of - The Emperoress Own Something Or Others.  I
 assumed she wore the outfit for this reason. >>

Yeah; this makes sense...

OT: I always wondered what female officers wore to their weddings: bridal 
outfits or full dress uniform?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:12:03 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Drop Tanks GURPS only

I wouldn't want to disagree with Christopher Thrash, who as one of the
authors of Far Trader is certainly in a better position than I am to quote
GURPS Taveller orthodoxy. But...
On page 120 of G:T Loren Wiseman wrote:

Each jump requires a quantity of liquid hydrogen. A portion is converted
into energy in the ship's fusion reactor to open the "hole" into jump space
and to maintain the "bubble" around the ship once it enters jumpspace, a
portion is used as coolant for the jump drive, and a portion is vented
***into jump space itself as part of the process of creating the jump
"bubble" which separates and insulates the ship from jumpspace.*** For
convenience, all of the LH2 is called fuel; this is technically incorrect as
only a portion is actually burned to create energy but all of it is used up.

The *** are mine for emphasis.  The impact of the above is inconsequential
for CT, MT, TNE. For GURPS Traveller it is, however, quite significant. In
canon GT there is no problems with PC being able to use the massive energy
produced by the consumption of LHY for weapons, because no such massive
amount of energy is produced.  In fact since LHY must be vented into
jumpspace the drop tanks must be in jumpspace.  How else could they be used?
Unless you subscribe to the theory that a ship can open a hole in jumpspace,
stay at the normal space/jumpspace interface long enough to form a bubble
and then hurl the drop tanks out of the hole before it closed.

So what is a drop tank? I maintain that it is a demountable tank that can be
quickly shed after jump, instead of taking the longer time to remove
standard demountable tanks. At least in GURPS:Traveller.  (As always all
GURPS rules are optional)

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:52:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Gearheads

Yes there is, the Trav-Tech mailing list...usually pretty low traffic.

To subscribe send email with 'subscribe' to trav-tech-request@qrc.com



cjbrain wrote:
> 
> Is there a mailing list for gearheads?
> If so, how do I join? (I intend to do some serious lurking for a bit)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:30:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Armor and WORLDCons!!  TML'ers BE THERE!!!

Very much the same scenario that some of us had envisioned.  Just warms the
heart, doesn't it?   >:D   I can quite literally SEE the looks people would
be giving this little entourage, especially when it dawned on a current or
old player what they where seeing!  Especially funny would be a couple who
were in armor starting to dance at the masquerade :)  That'd get some
priceless looks as well.

Alas, it's looking more and more impossible to do it this year.  Just not
enough time or money left.  On the other hand, I'm published now so there is
a tradeoff :)  For way too many years I've been saying "There's always next
year", but dammit I really want to get this done by next year's BayCon.  I'd
also like to put together a TML prescense (armored or not as you can afford
it) at the upcoming WorldCons in Chicago and Philidelphia.  Since these are
WORLDcons, there should be no excuses to at least attend.....Hmmmm....a
dealer's table may be in order for those...I'm also really seeing a crew
party from the "Lucky Credit" of Roger Barr's PBEM.  Come on guys, whattya'
say?  All TML'ers FRONT AND CENTER FOR WORLDCONS!!!

Anyway, grand strategic planning can happen this year when we hit Denny's.

Later,
Jesse


>Kirsten and I were discussing this over dinner, and she thought of the
>wonderful idea of having her dress as a Vilani noblewoman (she loves those
>fashions) with six battledressed escorts.
>
>Picture that at BayCon 2000.  "The Lady Estiberrsha wishes to eat.  Now."
>*click* hmmmmmmmmmmm.......
>--
>
> Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
>     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/
>
>"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
>                    -Adam West, as Batman
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:29:38 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #429

On Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:27:07 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:05:00 EDT
>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: [Debate] Dilgaadin 3 resp various

>Jeff,

>		I take it that the debate is over.    I was wondering what 
>you had decided to do with it?

It sorta looks that way, doesn't it?  I'm debating about how it
can best be presented on Freelance Traveller, and trying to come
up with some intro/background for it.  Right now I'm leaning
toward presenting it as though it were a compilation of letters
to the editor of a journal that focussed on policy analysis.
That's going to take a little bit of judicious editing, which I'm
not sure I want to do.

I think that the general idea worked pretty well, and if others
agree, I might instigate more of these in the future, based on
other possible policy decisions, including possibly those leading
to key points in Imperial history (such as the granting of
autonomy to the Solomani, the subsequent question of recognition
of independence, the propriety of Arbellatra's assumption of the
Regency after the Civil Wars, and so on).


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:29:32 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Forward compatible (was Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker)

>The new database takes advantage of some features in it.  GCM is
>backwards compatible ... not forwards compatible (when I figure out
>how to make a program forward compatible, you guys will never
>hear from me again.  I'll be too busy counting my money!! ;))

Methods to make computer programs and data forward-compatible have been
known since the 1960s. Software can be made forward-compatible through
virtual machines and Codd's relational rules. These methods are used in
some data formats, like PDF and XML.

Unfortunately, programmers find it easier to just modify internal data
structures and change opcodes than to normalize data, maintain external
references, or implement a VM. RTF and TIFF could have been
forward-compatible, but software companies felt it more necessary to expose
proprietary data than to maintain the standard.

What does this have to do with Traveller? Could those who write Traveller
software consider using XML and publishing the DTD? This would make their
files backward and forward-compatible, and usable by others.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:36:31 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

At 05:53 PM 09/04/1999 PST, you wrote:
>
>>                 That is the Aslan Alien Module (AM#?).  I have it, if you
>> would like to see that chart and the assoc rules....
>
>I've got it. It's also in the Zhodani module and a couple other places.
>:-)
>
        I'll have to re-read the description as to how it works, as my first
impression was that it was a rather odd way of doing it....  given that
you'd be able to do long base-line observation you'd knwo where everything
was before you got there anyway....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:36:31 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Designing Robots

At 10:55 AM 10/04/1999 +1000, you wrote:
>Having only played Traveller in the past, I now find myself in the position
>of needing to design a few large agricultural robots. I am looking at three
>different robots at TL11, powered by Fusion+, using contragrav tech.
>The functions of these robots are:
>
>a. Harvester and trailer
>b. Planter and trailer, and
>c. Crop duster.
>
>I am not asking for designs, but would like someone to talk me through
>designing one of these for my own use. I am happy to share results. Please
>email me privately, as I do not want to waste space on the TML or annoy more
>experienced readers.
>

        Book 8 rules or something else?

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:54:12 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)

At 01:26 AM 10/04/1999 -0500, you wrote:

>Thank you Michel. ;->

        My pleasure....

>I started playing back in late 77 when Traveller *was* the 3 LBB's
>and there wasn't anything except a *very* general framework.  I
>enjoyed all the suppliments and JOTAS articles that built up the
>Imperium, but I never set my games in what became the OTU.

        My first few games were set in Regina, 3i....  we were so busy
learning the rest of the game that things like creating 16-sector empires
with pen and paper were not high on the priority list...  ;)
        The first real campaign I ran was set very not OTU...  Terra was
just a legend and no one had ever been there or knew where to find it on a
star map...  16 different sentient races crammed into three sectors of
space...  An unkind but not evil empire with armed borders on all four
sides...  TL15+
        "The Near Earth Campaign (TNEC)" is what the name sounds like, but
none of my players need to go rushing out to Alpha Centari to meet the
Villani....  it's been a Terran colony now for 85 years and they only found
evidence of another sentient race about 12 years ago;  60ly from Sol...

>  As CT
>turned into MT it got much harder to use anything from GDW without
>also using their universe..at least for me.  I don't oppose having
>an OTU, but I still implore Marc, Loren and the BITS folks to make
>the books them write general enough so, as Michel put it, "it
>wouldn't choke me."
>
>Eris,
>    and *that* is what makes me a heretic ;->

        Hmmm...  take a glance at my TNEC milieu and tell me if I am far
enough left of OTU to qualify as Heretical Journeyman....  =)

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:09:23 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

At 02:27 PM 10/04/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> Kirsten and I were discussing this over dinner, and she thought of the
>> wonderful idea of having her dress as a Vilani noblewoman (she loves those
>> fashions) with six battledressed escorts.
>> 
>> Picture that at BayCon 2000.  "The Lady Estiberrsha wishes to eat.  Now."
>> *click* hmmmmmmmmmmm.......
>
>I can dig it.
>
>Of course the fusion guns the armed escorts will be carrying will be used
to cook with, right?
>
>Keven

        Nope, the under-barrel mounted microwavers are for cooking....  The
fusion guns are for clearing some space at a crowded dinner table...  =)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #430
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 10 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 431



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
Re: Garbage
Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)
Re: Drop Tanks GURPS only
The Traveller Grand Heresay (Was: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits))
Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Drop tanks redux
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather)
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Imperial Fashions
Skill Usage-First Aid
Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage
Re: Economics of drop tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:18:42 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

At 09:51 am 4/10/99, you wrote:
>At 06:29 PM 4/9/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>I always thought that that SOMEBODY should reprint these adventures
(#1-13, 
>>and double adv. 1-6). I wish SJG would since they are doing the
approriate 
>>period with GURPS and it appears that T5 will cover a much earlier
period.
>
>Ahh.. Double Adventure 6.  Night of Conquest/Divine Intervention.
Two of
>my all time favorite adventures.

	Great adventures ... I think Divine Intervention is a perfect way to
test a group of gamers to see whether they're hack & slash or more
... thinking-oriented. One group I ran through it wound up crashing
the entire palace and losing half their numbers; the other wound up
not killing *anybody* (even the assassins that came after them).

Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
adventures, and why. 

*Official: CT, MT, TNE, T4 or GT; published by GDW, DGP, IG, or SJG,
either as a standalone product or as an article in the appropriate
"official" magazine.**

**Why restrict it to official: there's a better chance that others
have played the same adventure ...

Mine:

#1: Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention--as stated above.

#2: Double Adventure ?: Chamax Plague--a fun "Aliens" type romp.
Watching the tension build in the party is great, especially if you
take your time working it up. Having NPC spearcarriers around makes
it even better. "Anybody seen Joe Redshirt? Dammit, I *told* him not
to go wandering off alone."  And then later when they find what's
left of a body ... rustling noises at night ... vibrations in the
ground ...

#3: Hmm ... I'll have to think about this.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:20:11 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

At 02:27 pm 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> At 08:28 PM 4/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Not only OK, but I can get officially licensed to produce them
and sell them
>> >to the general public!  Bwwwaaaahhhaaaahhhaaaaaahhhaaaa!!!!
>> >
>> >The gun order is a given, you may have to loose a couple pounds
to fit in
>> >the armor >:)    Ok ok, so I need to as well.  Nobody's perfect
;)
>> 
>> Kirsten and I were discussing this over dinner, and she thought of
the
>> wonderful idea of having her dress as a Vilani noblewoman (she
loves those
>> fashions) with six battledressed escorts.
>> 
>> Picture that at BayCon 2000.  "The Lady Estiberrsha wishes to eat.
 Now."
>> *click* hmmmmmmmmmmm.......
>
>I can dig it.
>
>Of course the fusion guns the armed escorts will be carrying will be
used to cook with, right?

	"I'm so *terribly* sorry, but Miss Ditzie Hengabar is ahead of you
..."
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:34:02 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

OK, that I can see.  About the only reason Lady Estiberrsha WOULDN'T be
served immediately :)

Jesse



> "I'm so *terribly* sorry, but Miss Ditzie Hengabar is ahead of you
>..."
>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
>
>   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:54:04 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

In a message dated 4/10/99 8:26:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
goldendj@pcisys.net writes:

<< 
 Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
 adventures, and why. 
  >>

	#1:   I loved Chamax Plague and especially Horde.  The romp against 
the aliens was just plain fun.
	#2: 76  Patrons:  The seeds in this one book allowed me to craft a 
large number of complete adventures for play, and since there were multiple 
possible outcomes I never had to worry about the players "reading the module"
	#3 Broadsword:  this is a favorite of mine, but just to read, I've 
never actually used it in game-play.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:20:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

On 09 Apr, Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:
<snip>
> Baroness Hortense de Zivije may need and be entitled to 2 displacement
> tons for her various ball gowns, masquerade costumes, formal court
> attire, Moot dress, etc., etc., etc.

Those are really light and voluminous gowns! The wonders of tech 15
clothing. (Average density 1/28th that of water.)

I had missed that the passenger cargo was in kg in book 2.

By T4, the allowance is 1dT. Gurps is also 1dT.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 01:10:08 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage

On 08 Apr, David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:04:37 +1200, "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
<snip>
> >and except for the avionics commercial
> >airliners are still largely using technology that is older than that.

> Because it works.  If new technology offered some big advantage,
> it would be used.

I could be wrong but, airliner tech is not 40 years old.

40 years ago...

You didn't have the materials to make the wings or the turbine blades.

You couldn't even make the fabrics in the seats or the plastics
in the stowage bins.

You didn't have the computer tech to design the airframe or the
wind tunnels to test it.

You didn't have the machine tools to make the components.

I doubt you could even make 1% of a modern airliner using purely
1950's tech.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 20:04:27 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)

On 04/10/99 at 08:54 PM,  Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:

>        Hmmm...  take a glance at my TNEC milieu and tell me if I am
>far enough left of OTU to qualify as Heretical Journeyman....  =)

I have, and you are. ;->  

Very nicely done, btw.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:23:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks GURPS only

On 04/10/99 15:12:03 Terry C. wrote:
>So what is a drop tank? I maintain that it is a demountable tank that can be
>quickly shed after jump, instead of taking the longer time to remove
>standard demountable tanks. At least in GURPS:Traveller.  (As always all
>GURPS rules are optional)

	FWIW, this is my preferred explanation as well.  It seems to conform 
best with canon background and creates fewer problems than other 
explanations.  There are just too many tricks you can pull commercially and 
militarily with the "drop-before-jump" tanks.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:39:26 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: The Traveller Grand Heresay (Was: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits))

At 08:04 PM 10/04/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>On 04/10/99 at 08:54 PM,  Michel Vaillancourt
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:
>
>>        Hmmm...  take a glance at my TNEC milieu and tell me if I am
>>far enough left of OTU to qualify as Heretical Journeyman....  =)
>
>I have, and you are. ;->  

        That's what I thought =)

>Very nicely done, btw.

        Thanks.  We don't need no stinkin' Imperium.... ;-)

>Eris

        --Michel


	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:29:57 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 10 April 1999 10:13
Subject: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)


>>Twilights peak mention that Gyro Cadiz and friends made several jumps to
>>empty space (which IMO was phrased as something scary for the crew). I
>>think jumps to empty space is Canon but that there should be rules that
>>make jumping to/from empty space harder ie more likely to produce
misjumps.
>>The main reason for this I think comes from the numerous mentions of
>>"mains". Why consider mains important if a J1 ship with extra fuel can
>>bridge a 2 paresc gap without problem?
>>

*****  *****  *****

>I would make jumping to deep space a normal jump (no extra difficulty).
>OTOH, jumping from deep space is a bit more tricky, because you do not have
>any exact reference to where you are.  In a star system, you have a star
>and planets within a couple of AU to get a reference from, in deep space
>you don't.
>
>

G'day everyone,

I'm new to this mailing list, so I hope I am not breaching any kind of
protocol here.  I have lurked on this list for the grand total of 24 hrs and
am moved to post so soon!  I do like the quality of many of the posts, but
the traffic on a couple of threads has not been great enough to fill me in
completely on their particular coverage.

However, I have enjoyed what I have read of this thread and feel I know
enough of it to contribute if I may.  The question from what I have read is
basically, "can a crew pilot a ship purposefully into and out of an "empty
system?"  Is that it?

As the above quote from Twilight Peak mentioned, officially it was possible.
Also, if I remember correctly, some other published adventures (MT?  TNE?)
and Challenge magazines had part of plots developed around IN placement of
fuel and supplies in empty "hexes" across various rifts in order for the IN
to make manoeuvres or strikes across these wide expanses of planetless voids
(these supplies now lost or forgotten due to the revolt/collapse, so the
PC's could make use of them or claim them. etc.).

This suggests that it is indeed possible and safe enough that the IN used it
as a practical means of Standard Operational Procedure.  The thing about
navigation in Traveller was not so much that the Navigator had to get out
his sextant and charts and take bearings, but he had to make readings his
Nav Computer produced, adjust them for the local system and basically let
the computer handle 90% or more of the in-system travel (via auto-pilot).

Now I'm not going into the r/l causes and effects here, just the games rules
as they worked in the LBB-days.  A ship could be detected for example, on
trajectory-X before it switched on it's Black Globe as it entered jump which
enabled the trackers to follow it by sending a vessel into each and every
system (occupied and/or empty systems) along that trajectory up to the known
limit of the followed ship's jump number (if they knew the vessel to be only
J-2 capable, they could track it into the next hex or into the second hex on
the ship's trajectory).

This suggests that even with a misjump, the vessel exits jump heading in a
given direction (even if it comes out side ways or backwards).  The
Navigator does a few calculations on the Nav Computer and should be able to
tell the pilot, "We have to turn about and head out on these co-ords..."
with the only problem being that the Nav doesn't quite know exactly how far
they may have travelled?  If the jump into an empty system was intentional,
then the crew should know exactly where they are, the computers know exactly
where the ship is and can alter position quite safely in order to jump out
to wherever they want to go and so on.  Even r/l navigation computer devices
"can" be exceptionally accurate -- when adventuring in the "Far Future,"
where these machines are bread and butter, surely they have to be at least
99% accurate under all situations (other than lack of maintenance and such).

Well, I hope I haven't jumped in to deep here.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:50:10 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 10 April 1999 11:24
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?


I gave my gear to a young lad who needed it more than me (sigh), but I
borrowed book 2 to check my memory wasn't as far gone as I feared (phew)...


Book 2:  Starships, p6
"Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1 to 6); throw that
number of dice to determine the number of hexes in length the misjump is.
Then throw one die to determine the direction of the misjump (one of the six
directions possible on the hex grid).  Finally, throw one die to determine
the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at it's
new location."

So jump is still a straight line as it should be (lateral movement in
jump?), hence the computer should be able to say what vector jump was exited
from.

- --  The Roc


>
>Well, I seem to recall an additional roll to determine how far
>"sideways" you go.
>
>Here's a chart showing the odds of misjumping to various distances,
>based on the roll for number of dice to roll for distance.
>(ie distance = (1d6)d6 )
>
>There are 279936 possible rolls.
>
>hexes chance percentage
>----- ------ ----------------
> 1 7776 2.77777777777778
> 2 9072 3.24074074074074
> 3 10584 3.78086419753086
> 4 12348 4.41100823045267
> 5 14406 5.14617626886145
> 6 16807 6.0038723136717
> 7 11832 4.22668038408779
> 8 12507 4.46780692729767
> 9 13076 4.67106767261088
>10 13482 4.81610082304527
>11 13650 4.87611454046639
>12 13482 4.81610082304527
>13 12852 4.59104938271605
>14 12897 4.60712448559671
>15 12772 4.56247142203932
>16 12453 4.44851680384088
>17 11928 4.26097393689986
>18 11207 4.00341506630087
>19 10332 3.69084362139918
>20 9387 3.35326646090535
>21 8292 2.96210562414266
>22 7101 2.5366512345679
>23 5880 2.10048010973937
>24 4697 1.67788351623228
>25 3612 1.29029492455418
>26 2667 0.952717764060357
>27 1876 0.670153177869227
>28 1251 0.446887860082305
>29   786 0.280778463648834
>30   462 0.165037722908093
>31   252 0.0900205761316872
>32   126 0.0450102880658436
>33    56 0.0200045724737083
>34    21 0.0075017146776406
>35     6 0.00214334705075446
>36     1 0.000357224508459076
>
>Definitely an odd shaped curve.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:57:15 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks redux

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>Now, if these prices are true, then we can take this theory about slow
>communication speeds hampering the Imperium, and throw them out the door.
>Every major system (and most of the minor ones) *will* be linked by jump-6
>drop freighters. 

You're right, but you're wrong too. That is, you're right that the slow
communication speeds hampering the Imperium is bushwah, but drop tanks don't
affect that one way or the other. Information is the one thing that would
be more expensive to send by drop tank ship (though not significantly so),
since a drop tank equipped ship is a bit more expensive than it's regular
counterpart.

>You know you can link Efate-Regina-Kkirka-Rhylanor-Natoko-Mora-Isurkin-
>Vincennes, and a spur line down from Natoko-Lunion-Sting, with jump-6 ?
>The fast link from Mora to Trin goes via empty hex 3239 (using a 100 dton
>jump-6 News Packet utilising drop tanks then internal tankage),

OK, that one link would propably be cheaper with drop tanks than with deep
space fuel depots.
 
>...while the slow one goes Mora-Fens Gren-Ramiva as jump-5, then a short
>jump-2 hop to Trin.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:36:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather)

At 08:18 PM 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
>adventures, and why. 

#1 DA6 - Night of Conquest.

A confused, panicked dash through an alien city under attack.  Great for
Ref's who want to throw everything including the kitchen sink at their
players.  I've run this at least seven times.

#2 The Flaming Eye.

Great short campaign for MT.  The first adventure was much better than the
second, with he characters trying to extract a spy from the Ziru Sirkaa.

#3 The Sky Raiders Trilogy.

(Cue the John Williams' Raiders music)  Cutting through thick jungles,
ambushes at lost cities, human sacrifice, evil pseudo-nazis, mad dashes
across deserts, beautiful girls in need of constant rescue, and a lost
civilization in a generation ship!

C'mon, what *more* could you want??  One of the NPCs even calls for a Peter
Lorre impersonation  ("If you value your lives, you will not go into the
Outback.. he-heh..")
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:38:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

At 02:32 PM 4/10/99 EDT, you wrote:

>OT: I always wondered what female officers wore to their weddings: bridal 
>outfits or full dress uniform?

I've seen both.  Once, I was at the marriage of an USAF Sergeant (the
bride) and a USN pilot.  She wore her dress blues, he wore a tux.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:19:05 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 10 April 1999 10:17
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions



>Iolanthe was born in 1052 and married Strephon in 1079, therefore she
>was 27 at the time, and Strephon was 30.  Their daughter Ciencia
>Iphegenia was born in 1088, when Iolanthe was 36.  I do not believe that
>the Emperoress career allows enough time for other activities.  I
>suspect that Iolanthes career path was College, Noble, Noble.  In her
>second term as a noble Iolanthe had special duty "marry the Emperor" &
>got to rise two ranks in her career, from Soc F [daughter of the senior
>Duke of the Gushmege Sector] to Soc H [Emperoress].  I note that the
>library data says "Her primary avocation is the preservation of
>developing cultures within the Imperium."  This could be interepreted as
>evidence of a career as a Scout or an Academic but it seems more likely
>to me that it is an interest she pursued during her terms as a Noble.
>
>I assumed that the military, or strongly pseudo military, outfit she
>wore in GURPS Traveller (pg 43) was the outfit of an outfit that she, as
>Emperoress, is the head of - The Emperoress Own Something Or Others.  I
>assumed she wore the outfit for this reason.  I suppose that it is
>possible she choose to wear the military uniform so that no one would be
>able to make fun of her civilian fashion choices but I assumed it was
>merely a cynical attempt to dupe the members of the outfit into
>believing she actually cared about them.
>

Never had to think much on royalty wearing fashions to any extent, but I do
support the "as
Emperoress, is the head of - The Emperoress' Own Something Or Others."  It
is interesting to note that in our r/w, Queen Elizabeth was a uniformed,
military ambulance driver during WWII, that her sons were all members of the
Royal Navy (and was it Prince Eddie that served in the Falklands as a
helo-pilot in the war zone?  But I know little of what the girls were into,
sorry), so I find it acceptable that Iolanthe could have been a serving
member of whatever military arm the court finds in vogue or traditional (the
navy being the English royal families tradition I believe).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:48:00 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Skill Usage-First Aid

One thing I haven't seen discussed much on the list is skill usage.
For a starter, the T4 rules present a descriptions of what kinds of tasks
could be handled with first aid skill, but no information on what kind of
difficulty they are.  I can always just wing it, but I'd like to hear some
ideas of what "works" from gamers with more experience than I have.




  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:51:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage

Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:41:11 -0700, "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
>Free Trader gets a shipment to be delivered from 2036 Glisten/Spinward
>Marches to 2038 Trane/Spinward Marches. Ship refuels and jumps immediatly to
>save time.
>
>Cost to travel from Glisten to Sorel to Horosho to Trane:
[snip]
>Total Cost = Cr46,200
>
>Cost to travel using drop tanks from Glisten to (empty hex) to Trane.
[snip]
>Total Cost = 60,850
>
>It costs an extra Cr14,650 to save 1 week time.

Several issues.  You didn't include the mortgage payments (which
really penaltized slow ships), take advantage of increased cargo
space that you can get, look at making higher jump ships.  Also
one of the objections is that the kinds of cost given for drop
tanks just don't make sense.  A lot of this has been mentioned
so I won't repeat it.  I will
just point out that, in fact, you really don't need to drop
them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
used and take them with you.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:36:59 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:57:15 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>Are you saying that it could be that there are jump 6 drop ships travelling
>>the main routes and it just wasn't worth mentioning?

>Exactly. When you are writing an adventure set on Vanejen, you don't waste
>space on a description of the passenger traffic between Rhylanor and Mora.

That would work if the Traveller background wasn't anything
more than a series of adventures.  But there is material that
purports to describe what a typical liner is like, what
cargo costs, whether military/scout vessels can jump in without
fuel, etc.

>Isn't it equally odd that no description
>of the politics of the Darrians mentions the Avalar Consulate, a large,
>Zhodani-friendly multi-stellar society about as close to the Darrians as the
>Imperium is?

Maybe, I'm not familiar with what you describe.  Even if it is, I
don't see having on mistake much of a reason to add more.

>Actually, no. Drop tanks ships aren't cheaper than their normal counterparts.
>They are more expensive. In GT quite a bit more expensive. They can just
>carry a greater payload, so the cost per unit (passenger or ton of freight)
>goes down.

Exactly.  You can make a ship jump-6 without having to loose
60% of your space to fuel alone.  This is huge.

>I don't recall any cargoes in _TA_ that was carried that all far between any
>worlds that I would consider suitable for drop tank freighters. How about
>some examples?

The point is, rather than wandering over the sector, they will only
be able to carry cargoes to worlds that get few ships.  This means
that you are stuck shuttling between those worlds and the main
routes.  As soon as you look to carry cargo along the main route
you find you can't compete.

>>They should be just ferrying cargo to and from the smallest worlds, they
>>can't compete.

>They shouldn't be able to compete with large corporate ships either (large
>ships are more economic than small ships by any Traveller rules). But they
>can, because they exploit the cracks between the corporate structure.

Well, Far Trader makes this possible because you take spot cargoes
the big corps aren't interested in.  There problem here is that
you can't compete with drop tank tramp ships either.

>>It should also meant that PC will, if they need to get someplace in a hurry
>>have to decide if they want to switch to j-6 drop ships (as opposed
>>to switching to a jump-3 or jump-4 liner).

>So it should, always assuming that the PCs are in a place with drop liner
>service and want to go to another place with drop liner service. So?

It makes a difference.  It means that when I want to construct
a believable setting (or SJGs writes stuff for me) effort that
could go to other things has to go to making sure that all the
drop tanks are presented believably, that players choices
reflect the existance of them, etc.

>>You also have problem with military situations.  Aside from issues of how
>>far you can jump into enemy space, etc. the classic a fleet jumping in and
>>having to engage or refuel before it can jump out becomes obsolete. If you
>>have drop tanks you don't have to jump in with empty tanks. But this is not
>>a trivial part of the background.

>No, unfortunately you're right about that, because as anyone who has played
>in a TCS campaign can tell you, jumping into a system with empty tanks is
>a mark of a really stupid (or desperate) admiral. But drop tanks won't
>affect that very much. Since you can only use drop tanks if you have them,
>a fleet will either have to carry them along (in which case they don't
>benefit from them) or use them, which gives them the benefit ONCE.

Well, if you are imaginative there are things you can do about
this (like have tender ships that have tanks that can then
collapse down allowing them to become a small ship to jump
themselves).  That assumes you don't instead make tanks that
can callopse back into the war ship to bring itself.  (That is
part of the problem when you introduce a new technology assuming
you can see all the impacts, people are going to start having ideas).

Sure they might not be useful _every_ time, but they don't have
to be to have a big impact.  In the FFW they could have been used
to allow a huge fleet to jump from Allel to Jewel, attack anyone
they catch by surprise, and jump right out.  The fact is that
with drop tanks Jewel was not particularly cut off.

They may not
be much for commerce raiding and other fast moving sitatuations,
but they would have been great for launching major strikes in
something like the FFW.  After all, moving a bunch of drop
tankers 6 parsecs won't be slow compared to the time it takes
to take a world and reduce resistance.  Unless you are planning
on leaving enemy occupied worlds behind you....

>>Right, and the context of why Oberlindes hires them should fit the
>>background.  If they are being driven out of business by drop tanks,
>>then I expect that to be reflected in what my PC see.
>
>So it would appear that they are not being driven out of business by drop
>tanks. That dosen't prove that drop tanks dosen't exist.

The problem is that no corp is feeling effects.  They would change
the fundamentals of shipping be we are suppose to believe that
_none_ of the corps scored big or went bust???

>The Zhodani already has to protect all their territory.

And now instead of having to protect 6 parsecs deep against
ships that can jump in without fuel to refill, they have
to protect 6 parsecs deep agaisnt ships that can attack
with full tanks in case defenses are too big (and can
raid without fueling) and also protect _another_ 6 parsecs
deep against ships without fuel.

> Laying out deep
>space fuel depots is very expensive, but it is possible.

Yeah, very expensive and logistically difficult.  Enough so
that being able to do it easily will make it the sort of deep
raids the states would consider worth the effort every now and
then to be a routine tatic, something you can do with only
a fraction of the preparation that was need before.

This is sort of like saying that
having one side having jump-6 and another have jump-3 really
doesn't matter because you set up a refueling depot 3 parsecs out.
Drop tanks may require more logisitics than internal fuel
(and I'm not sure it has to be that much), but
they do require a heck of a lot less than a fueling depot.

Ironically, on can use drop tanks _and_ deep space depots (drop
tanks make them a lot easier to set up and give you a much
bigger reach from them once you have set them up).  You
can reach further with less effort and that means that maybe
the Zhondai would have to worry about 24 parsecs behind their
lines.

>>letting them jump in with full loads (the Imperials don't have to worry
>>about running High Guard), they either take the system and fuel at their
>>leasure or just jump back out,
>
>They can do that ONCE. Then they either have to wait for their drop tanks
>to be ferried into the system, or to go on without them.

You are missing the point.  You want to take a major world 4 parsecs
away.  But you can never know what is waiting there for you.  Now
most major ships have j-4.  Once you have gotten to within 4
parsecs, you can  either fight you way to within a parsecs of the
world and jump ships in with 1/2 tanks, you can try jumping
empty, or (with drop tanks) go ahead and just attack.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #431
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 11 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 432



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather) 
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
very OT and Amerocentric, but funny:  "Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er"
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Garbage
Re: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny: "Caught Between a Boomer and an  X'er"
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: drop tanks (long)
Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?
Re: Grav ball t-shirt
Re: Imperial Fashions
Fav Adventure
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #425
Re: Fav Adventure 
Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Favorite scenarios
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Traveller page update
Re: drop tanks 
Re: drop tanks and drop tanks redux 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:54:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather) 

> At 08:18 PM 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
> >adventures, and why. 
> 
> #1 DA6 - Night of Conquest.
> 
> A confused, panicked dash through an alien city under attack.  Great for
> Ref's who want to throw everything including the kitchen sink at their
> players.  I've run this at least seven times.

Haven't seen this one yet.  And considering it's set in Reavers' Deep, I 
consider *that* fact to be regretable.
 
> #2 The Flaming Eye.
> 
> Great short campaign for MT.  The first adventure was much better than the
> second, with he characters trying to extract a spy from the Ziru Sirkaa.

Haven't seen this one yet either.

> #3 The Sky Raiders Trilogy.
> 
> (Cue the John Williams' Raiders music)  Cutting through thick jungles,
> ambushes at lost cities, human sacrifice, evil pseudo-nazis, mad dashes
> across deserts, beautiful girls in need of constant rescue, and a lost
> civilization in a generation ship!
> 
> C'mon, what *more* could you want??  One of the NPCs even calls for a Peter
> Lorre impersonation  ("If you value your lives, you will not go into the
> Outback.. he-heh..")

*THIS* one I've got, and yeah, it's in my list:

#1  Rescue on Galetea

A rash of piracy and kidnappings, a mysterious Church for a patron, and a minor race in danger of extinction.  Never played it, but enjoy going through it for nuggets here & there.  CATN players *may* end up meeting people from the Church of the Future Man soon...  <grin>


#2 Sky Raiders Trilogy

A rilly *CLASSIC* minicampaign in the Foreven Sector.  This puppy set the standard that The Traveller Adventure book emulated.  All that's needed to make a complete full blown campaign are some random nuggets, a couple more firefights, a crash landing or 3, and a mysterious Widget of Immense Power...  <grin>

#3  (tie) Annic Nova or Twilight's Peak

Annic Nova is about the salvage and useage of an alien starship.  It's one of my LBBs that's come up missing over the years (and I gotta admit, Marc, when you published The Traveller Book and put 'Shadows' in for a sample adventure instead of 'Annic Nova', I was a bit dissappointed.  This is one of the LBBs that *WILL* be replaced someday!!!)

Twilight's Peak is a subsector-wide tresure hunt looking for a lost Ancients site in the Spinward Marches.  Following a book of *abysmal* poetry, the players retrace the final voyage of the Gyro Cadiz, lost in a previous Frontier War, uncover a Zhodani plot, and in general try to stay alive once they find the Ancients site.  This adventure is a good leadin to 'Secret of the Ancients', although, IMTU, 'SOTA' doesn't *quite* match up what was revealed in canon...  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:36:37 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

In a message dated 4/10/99 11:35:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< Of course the fusion guns the armed escorts will be carrying will be used 
to cook with, right?
  >>

yeah, but I hope the SFPD are gamers...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:44:17 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny:  "Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er"

Sorry; I couldn't resist:

<< Subject:  Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er
  >
  >YOU'RE LOST BETWEEN A BABY BOOMER AND A GEN X'ER IF...
  >1.  You remember when Jordache jeans with a flat handle comb in the 
  back pocket
  >was cool.
  >2.  In your class picture you were wearing an Izod shirt with the 
  collar up.
  >3.  You know by heart the words to any Weird Al Yankovic song.
  >4.  You ever rang someone's doorbell and said "Landshark!"
  >5.  Three words: ATARI, IntelliVision and Coleco, sound familiar.
  >6.  You remember the premier of MTV, in fact, you remember the Friday 
  Night
  >Videos before the days of MTV.
  >7.  A predominant color in your childhood photos is plaid.
  >8.  While in high school, you and your friends discussed elaborate 
  plans to get
  >together again at the end of the century and play Prince's "1999" until 
  you
  >passed out partying.
  >9.  You remember when music that was labeled alternative, really was
  >alternative.  And when alternative comedy really was
  >funny.
  >10.You took family trips BEFORE the invention of the minivan.
  >11.You rode in the back of the station wagon and you faced the cars 
  behind you.
  >12.You've recently horrified yourself by using any one of the following 
  phrases:
  >When I was younger... When I was your age...You know, back when...
  >13.Schoolhouse Rock played a HUGE part in how you actually learned the 
  English
  >language.
  >14.You ever dressed to emulate a person you saw in either a Duran 
  Duran, Madonna
  >or Cyndi Lauper video.
  >15.The first time you ever kissed someone at a dance came during either 
  "Crazy
  >for You" or "Leather and Lace"
  >16.You remember with pain the sad day when the Green Machine hit the 
  streets and
  >made our old Big Wheel quite obsolete.
  >17.The phrase "Where's the beef," still doubles you over with laughter.
  >18.You honestly remember when film critics raved that no movie could 
  ever
  >possibly get better special effects than those in the movie TRON.
  >19.You had a crush on either Ted the photographer on The Love Boat, 
  Gage from
  >Emergency or Ponch the motorcycle cop from CHiPs.
  >20.Your hair at some point in time in the 80's became something which 
  can only
  >be described by the phrase, "I was experimenting."
  >21.You've shopped at a United Colors of Benetton.
  >22.You're starting to believe now that maybe having the kids go to 
  school year
  >round wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
  >23.You're doing absolutely nothing pertaining to your major.
  >24.U2 is too popular and mainstream for you now.
  >25.You remember trying to guess the episode of the Brady Bunch from the 
  first
  >scene.
  >26.You had a front row seat for Luke and Laura's wedding on General 
  Hospital.
  >27.You're parents wanted you to attend medical school, but you decided 
  it was
  >pointless since Quincy got all the babes anyway.
  >28.You know who shot JR.
  >29.Loves Baby Soft was in every girls' Christmas stocking.
  >30.This rings a bell: "...and my name is Charlie. They work for me."
  >31.You were unsure if Diet Coke would ever catch on after all.
  >32.You know all the words to the double album set of Grease.
  >33.You ever had a Dorothy Hammill haircut.
  >34.You sat with your friends on a Friday night and dialed 867-5309 to 
  see if
  >Jenny would answer.
  >35."All skate, change directions", means something to you.
  >36.You owned a pair of Rainbow suspenders just like Mork used to wear.
  >37.You bought a pair of Vanns and wanted to order a pizza in history 
  class so
  >you  could be just like Jeff Spicoli.
  >38.You owned a preppy handbook.
  >39.You were too young to go see the Blue Lagoon so you just had to 
  settle for
  >second hand reports.
  >40.You remember when movies were only PG and R.
  >41.You learned to swim about the same time Jaws came out and still 
  carry the
  >emotional scars to this day.
  >42.You remember when your cable TV box had a sliding selector switch.
  >43.Your jaw would ache by the time you finished those brick-sized 
  packages of
  >Bazooka gum.
  >44.You remember Bo and Luke Duke.
  >45.VCRs cost $2,000.
  >46.There was nothing strange about Bert and Ernie living together.
  >47.You remember rotary dial telephones.
  >48.You actually believed that Mikey, famed for his Life cereal 
  commercials, died
  >after eating a packet of pop rocks and drinking a Coke.
  >49.The theme song to Greatest American Hero still comes back to you on 
  occasion
  >(BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I'M WALKING ON AIR...)
  >50."Members Only" Jackets, say no more. >>
  >>

Seth, DB: 8/14/64...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 01:28:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, David J. Golden wrote:

> Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
> adventures, and why. 
> 
> *Official: CT, MT, TNE, T4 or GT; published by GDW, DGP, IG, or SJG,
> either as a standalone product or as an article in the appropriate
> "official" magazine.**
> 
> **Why restrict it to official: there's a better chance that others
> have played the same adventure ...

Okay:

1) Sky Raider trilogy, Keith brothers, FASA.  

2) Twilight's Peak, Adventure #3, GDW

3) Ordeal on Eshaar (FASA) or Annic Nova (DA#1a).

I liked the Annic Nova, but never could figure out how to turn it into a
good adventure without making it too much like a dungeon crawl and yet not
lose the 'investigating eerie mystery' flavor.  Anyone have any
suggestions/experience?  Given that, Ordeal on Eshaar probably wins as
written.  

Fourth runner up:  Nomads of the World-Ocean, GDW.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:22:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Garbage

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Garbage
...
>I could be wrong but, airliner tech is not 40 years old.
>
>40 years ago...
>
>You didn't have the materials to make the wings or the turbine blades.

  I suspect that the point was that the fundamental technologies - jet
engines, metal airframes (which weren't necessarily an improvement over
wood early on, apparently) have only been refined and not revolutionized
since mid-century.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:25:08 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny: "Caught Between a Boomer and an  X'er"

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Sorry; I couldn't resist:
> 
> << Subject:  Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er
<snipped>
> Seth, DB: 8/14/64...


The scary part is my KIDS fit more of this than I do!!

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:33:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions
...
>merely a cynical attempt to dupe the members of the outfit into
>believing she actually cared about them.

 republican swine - you'd best hope the monarchy doesn't decide to abolish you!

  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:33:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: drop tanks (long)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage
...
>them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
>you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
>used and take them with you.

  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:45:52 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: what, exactly, does the astrogator _look_ for?

> This does, beg the question i the OTU, just what, exactly, does the
> astrogator _look_ for, if you can aim at an empty point in space.

He doesn't.  He sits at his computer, does multivarient work
with differential equations in n-dimensional space with
transpostion of time and distance axis.  Gets out a bunch
of number and give them to the pilot.  The pilot takes the
numbers and feeds them into the the jump computer, taking
into account ship flight parameters.  He then looks important
and "pushes the big red button".
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:35:04 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Grav ball t-shirt

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>

> Could you post the relevant data about the game, such as who made it, so I
> could try to find a used copy of it?

Mine says copyright 1982 by FASA Corporation. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:44:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com

> OT: I always wondered what female officers wore to their weddings: bridal 
> outfits or full dress uniform?

I'm sure a Marine officer, at least, wears full dress uniform on his or
her wedding day.

What do bridal outfits in different cultures look like?  Some could be
more military than military.

In the Traveller universe, the same question could be reasonably asked
regarding a male officer, you know.  Of course, unless men change
dramatically in 3,000 years, the answer will be "full dress uniform",
not least because that way he doesn't have to make any actual wardrobe
choices -- it's all in the regs.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:56:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Fav Adventure

> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

> Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
> adventures, and why. 

In no particular order:

AZ: Salvage on Sharmun, from Best of the Journal volume 1 (I think it's
in the first or second issue of JTAS).  This adventure involves an
Imperial starship full of money on the bottom of a lake on a red-zoned
world.  Sharmun is interdicted because the two major states in an
unstable equilibrium and any major dislocation might trigger all-out
nuclear war.  It felt much like the face-off between the United States
and the USSR in the 1950s and 1960s, but with Stalin still in power. 
There's the Young Pioneers camping near the lake; the mental hospital
(where I always assumed the crash survivors were); and other things that
gave the scenario flexibility and atmosphere.  

Speaking of atmosphere, I liked AZ: Thoughtwaves, in a later JTAS issue,
which took place in a pyramid underwater.  Imperial archaeologists are
investigating it when the Zhodanis arrive, which is the archaeologists'
first notice that the Fifth Frontier War has started.  

Finally, the Great Wine Heist, run as a role-playing adventure but with
all of the crazy shoot-em up stuff aboard the AHL, is totally hilarious.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:59:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #425

Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:43:59 +0100, anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>Twilights peak mention that Gyro Cadiz and friends made several jumps to
>empty space (which IMO was phrased as something scary for the crew).

Really?  I found it seemed routine.  Its been a while though....

> I
>think jumps to empty space is Canon

There is also the fact that the Solomani got to Bernard's star
by using jump's to deep space to set up fueling stations.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:07:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure 

On 04/10/99 20:18:42 Dave Golden wrote:
>
>Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
>adventures, and why. 
>

I came onto the scene kind of late, so I never had many of the "legendary" licensed adventures 
(i.e.-  the "Sky Raiders" trilogy), but from the ones I have:

#1) Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague/Horde.  The first part is, for my money, the best ever 
introductory Traveller scenario-- simple (rules-wise) and fun.  The  second part is a little 
more military than I prefer, but makes a great companion piece.

#2) The Traveller Adventure.  The first "real" (as opposed to one-off) Traveller adventure I 
ever ran, largely defined how I "look at" Traveller.

#3) Adventures 2 & 3: Research Station Gamma and Twilight's Peak.  RSG has got to be one of the 
least complete adventures ever published, which I actually like since it leaves lots of room for 
GM customizing.  TP is the original Epic Traveller adventure, and I don't think it's been 
matched since.

Later,

Trent

P.S.  This post marks my official return to the Traveller list after nearly two years' absence 
(cruelly forced upon me when I inadvertently graduated college).  Last time I was here 
"Emperor's Arsenal" had just been released and the T4 future actually looked slightly rosy.  I'm 
still trying to sort out everything that's occured since and would appreciate it if someone 
(presumably via private mail) could help me out with a few questions, including 1) what actually 
happened to IG (simple lack of sales or something more sinister)? 2)what's the deal with GURPS 
Traveller (I've looked through a few of the books on store shelves but haven't bought any of 
them-- are they worthwhile, even if I don't own GURPS)? and 3) what's the story with T5-- when 
is it going to be published, by whom, and what will it be like (game system, era/setting, etc)?

I don't know if I'll be able to participate in this list as actively as I did in years past 
(since I now have to work for a living and have to rely on the generosity of my roommate for use 
of the computer) but it's still nice to be back.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 99 02:17:39 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)

On 04/11/99 at 11:29 AM,  "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:

>I'm new to this mailing list, so I hope I am not breaching any kind
>of protocol here.  I have lurked on this list for the grand total of
>24 hrs and am moved to post so soon!  I do like the quality of many
>of the posts, but the traffic on a couple of threads has not been
>great enough to fill me in completely on their particular coverage.

Welcome to the list, Roc!

>However, I have enjoyed what I have read of this thread and feel I
>know enough of it to contribute if I may.  The question from what I
>have read is basically, "can a crew pilot a ship purposefully into
>and out of an "empty system?"  Is that it?

Sort of. ;-> 

There are are a number of references in published works where ships
jump to an "empty hex", so I wouldn't argue that the OTU allows it.
However, IMTU, a ship has to lock onto a massive object (jovan or
larger) in order to perform a controlled jump.  I've suggested that
some (perhaps many) "empty hexes" have such dark masses that just
aren't listed on maps...not being stars.  However, I don't have a
problem with folks just jumping to empty space if that's how they
want to play their games.

Seeing as you are new here, let me give you a heads up on a couple
of acronyms that are used a lot.  OTU stands for "Official Traveller
Universe" and refers to the published works detailing the Imperium.
IMTU stands for "In My Traveller Universe" and refers to the way
that poster plays Traveller, and that can differ from the OTU in
almost every way. ;->

Just what is and isn't OTU gets debated a lot, and can raise a lot
of heat.  The "drop tanks" debate is really about whether and how
that technology fits into the OTU, for example.  Other "done to
death" OTU topics that pop up occasionally and lead to long and loud
arguments are "piracy in the Imperium", "near c rocks" and anything
related to Virus. These are the "canon" debates. ;->

Then there are folks like me that enjoy the story of the OTU, but
*play* in our own TU's.  Many of us get labeled as "heretics" by the
"canonists."  Hey, we're the Rebel Alliance and *they* are the Evil
Imperium.  Personally, I embrace the light side. ;->

IAC, a lot of us post how *we* see things and how we reconcile OTU
references to our own TU's.  Even when we don't agree, and we often
don't, <g> we can pick up new ideas and enjoy each others
conversation.

Again, welcome aboard, and *please* share your ideas.  

Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:51:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks (Was: Garbage)
...
>It also means that jump-6 couriers aren't as special as
>the Rebelion sourcebook implies.  In fact, I seems to
>me that jump-6 ships become cheap enough that the j-4
>X-boats do become pointless.  To me it doesn't
...

  FWIW, the HG stats of the X-boat in S:7 are only a conversion;
in itself, it's a screamingly illegal design.

  In any case, as Hans has said many times before, the supposed prevalence
of J-4 commo is either some sort of sick joke or it required a genuinely
comprehensive suppression of private efforts to improve economic efficiency
in the Imperium - which SolSec would laugh itself silly over.

  BTW, I still do say that drop tanks can be a really big hassle :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:28:49 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Favorite scenarios

In no particular order:

The Traveller Adventure- sure, some of the episodes are a *little* unlikely,
    but as a whole, a very well done epic.

The Sky Raiders Trilogy- appears to be quite a favorite.  It has it all.

Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars- another Keith brothers' opus, basically a
straight
    up of Lawrence of Arabia, but very well-done.

Though these are my top three, I can't resist one more:  Adventure 8, Prison
Planet.  That has to one of the more unique adventures out there, and it
does a good job.  Plus, let's face, every Traveller group that I've ever
played in commited more than a fair amount of felonies...

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:55:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

In mail you write:

> At 05:53 PM 09/04/1999 PST, you wrote:
>>
>>>                 That is the Aslan Alien Module (AM#?).  I have it, if you
>>> would like to see that chart and the assoc rules....
>>
>>I've got it. It's also in the Zhodani module and a couple other places.
>>:-)
>>
>         I'll have to re-read the description as to how it works, as my first
> impression was that it was a rather odd way of doing it....  given that
> you'd be able to do long base-line observation you'd knwo where everything
> was before you got there anyway....

I agree that it was a *weird* way to do things. Best justification I
can come up with is that it's meant to mimic the not so great
astronomical gear aboard a ship, combined with difficulty of getting
accurate positions and lack of skill at making such observations.

But as a way of randomly selecting a hex out of a "hex of hexes" it's
rather nice. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 07:45:03 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Traveller page update

Having finally broken out of whatever mental block was keeping me from
updating my Traveller page, I've added my High Guard Fleet Logistics
rules, my Quarmas minor race and an essay on one of those topics
that are not to be named on the TML. :)

http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/traveller.htm is the address.

Now to work the bugs out of my Fleet Ops and Fleet Tac rules so
I can add them as well.

BTW, I've mislaid the email from the creator of the Traveller Deckplans
Webring graphic seen on the page. Could the creator please contact
me so I can properly attribute it?

Walt Smith
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 05:31:01 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks 

> David wrote:
> Several issues.  You didn't include the mortgage payments (which
> really penaltized slow ships), take advantage of increased cargo
> space that you can get, look at making higher jump ships.

Your right, slight oversight. Still comes down to the free trader not
benifiting from drop tanks.
Obviously, the far trader is the way to go, I was just exploring the option
for the free trader. To see if it could make the trip and still be
profitable. The conclusion, free traders are best jumping from world to
world and ignore trying to double-jump. Drop tanks just aren't profitable
for the free trader.

> Also
> one of the objections is that the kinds of cost given for drop
> tanks just don't make sense.  A lot of this has been mentioned
> so I won't repeat it.

What do you think a drop tank should cost? I missed that conversation. Can
you point me towards a specific digest or summarize the final decided
cost(s)? I personnally think the price is cheap for drop tanks and actually
use that price as a rental fee.

> I will
> just point out that, in fact, you really don't need to drop
> them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
> you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
> used and take them with you.

What would be the point of having drop tanks if you could pull them in? If
you could pull them in, you wouldn't need them in the first place.

Of course, it all comes down to the almighty IMTU. Where in mine, instant
consumption and using the fuel throughout the jump are both possible, but
instant consumption increases the risk of misjump and wear on the drives.
This, of course, reduces the desire to use drop tanks. (not a happy
executive when he hears his MCr4344 OctaDropFreighter is "lost in space".)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 05:31:31 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks and drop tanks redux 

>Ian Whitchurch wrote:
> However, I'm confused about the exact case - why in the name of the Credit
> Imperial dont you just load the cargo into an A2 and be done with it in
one
> hit ?

I just picked the Free Trader as an example. Maybe it's just my TU, but Free
Traders(A), Far Traders(A2) and subsidized merchants(R) are a lot more
common than 8000 dton freighters.

> >I don't see how drop tanks will make an impact on economics unless the
cost
> >of drop tanks are greatly reduced.
>
> See my Drop Tanks Redux post. It really is a signifigant impact.

I had to translate your ship into MT terms. Since that is what my message
was about.

I see your freighter having to charge Cr303/ton to pay for the drop tanks.

[I made a typo in my numbers in my original post (again, these numbers are
MT)]

>1kl of jump drive = 4 tons of cargo

should be 1kl of jump drive = 5 tons of cargo

>1kl of jump drive's worth of fuel in drop tanks = Cr5,000/kl (rounded for
>simple math, actual Cr5,062.50) + Cr10,000
>drop tanks cost Cr5,000 for each kl of jump drive + Cr10,000
>Below is the minimum price for 1 ton of cargo to pay for drop tanks

<snipped prices for cargo. numbers didn't take into account total cargo
space>

>
>*reference [a free trader has 4kl of drives]
>
A far trader has 6kl of drives
A subsidized merchant has 8kl of drives

What I didn't think about, is the total cost of the drop tanks could be,
spread out over all the cargo.

The free trader needs to Cr452/ton to pay for the drop tanks
The far trader - Cr496/ton
The subsidized merchant - Cr209

The subsidized merchant (the best of the three) would make on Cr1,000/ton
profit:
Cr200,000
Cr190,000 w/drop tanks -- Cr240,000 - Cr50,000 (drop tanks)

It's not till Cr1,250/ton that this ship makes the same profit as it would
if it jumped w/out drop tanks

At Cr2,000/ton this ship makes Cr30,000 more w/ drop tanks (7.5% increase )

The Freighter (switched to MT) Cr1,000/ton
MCr6.45
MCr6.44 (w/drop tanks)

It's at Cr1,004/ton that this ship begins to make more w/drop tanks

At Cr2,000/ton this ship makes MCr2.79 more w/ drop tanks (21.6% increase)

I just don't see MCr4344 ships being abundent. If they are, I can see the
changes drop tanks would make.

The small increase in sales due to drop tanks isn't that much. But, I can
see it lead to (drop)tankers and other jump-gate possibilities.

IMTU, a ship can burn all its fuel at once and store it in capacitors for
the journey or it can burn the fuel throughout the trip. When a ship runs
the drives hot (consume all the fuel at once) then their is an increase in
risk of misjump and greater wear on the drives. The risks of misjump alone
is enough to keep people from using drop tanks and (drop)tankers/jump gates.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #432
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 11 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 433



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Armor update (was AHL?)
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Favorite scenarios
Soft Power, High Archon, Patronage (ie: Re: Imperial Fashions)
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather)
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Favorite scenarios
Campaign: Navy Blood

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:17:23 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

>> OT: I always wondered what female officers wore to their weddings: bridal
>> outfits or full dress uniform?

>I'm sure a Marine officer, at least, wears full dress uniform on his or
>her wedding day.

I have a female friend who is getting married this summer and is also in the
military. She is getting married in a white bridal dress. I think most
women, even in the services, would prefer to get married in a dress.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:14:17 -0500
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?)

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> >
> >Of course the fusion guns the armed escorts will be carrying will be
> used to cook with, right?
> 
>         "I'm so *terribly* sorry, but Miss Ditzie Hengabar is ahead of you
> ..."

SSPPLLLOOOOORRRTTTT! 'cough' 'cough'


"aNyBOvy H%av @ ssPp0ng@?"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 06:49:18 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

1. Shadows 2. Twlights Peak 3. The GM Notes in BtC....Theres enough stuff in there to keep 10 campaigns going...

BTW...My local hobby shop has old copies of the Sky Raiders Trilogy...all the good things said about it..makes me want to go get it!

Mike McKeown




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 06:49:53 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

1. Shadows 2. Twlights Peak 3. The GM Notes in BtC....Theres enough stuff in there to keep 10 campaigns going...

BTW...My local hobby shop has old copies of the Sky Raiders Trilogy...all the good things said about it..makes me want to go get it!

Mike McKeown




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:15:34 -0500
From: David Smart <warlock@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Favorite scenarios

The Psionics triology: Research Station Gamma, Twilight's Peak,
SotA.

The Sky Raiders Trilogy

And "The Drenslaar Quest" by William H. Keith, Jr.

This last is the *only* decent published Traveller adventure
which requires underwater skills (SCUBA, diving, etc.) and
makes for a serious SEALs-type adventure while incorporating
pretty darn accurate rules for underwater salvage and deep-sea
diving in Traveller.

One thing about the Keith brothers' publications - they pushed
the envelope in regards to environmental affects on a
Traveller adventure. They did some *excellent* research on
this aspect of the game. In fact, I'd say it's on the level
of the research done for the various GURPS "real world"
supplements.

For those of you unfamiliar with their work, their game company
was called "GameLords, Ltd." If you ever have a chance to pick
up any of their environmental booklets for Traveller, do so. 
They're called "The Underwater Environment", "The Mountain 
Environment", and "The Desert Environment." These booklets
were written for CT but should easily convert to MT/TNE/T4.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:29:37 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Soft Power, High Archon, Patronage (ie: Re: Imperial Fashions)

Peter Newman:
> The most important charecteristic of evey outfit is that it be
> expensive, and that it is readily apparent that it is expensive.

And that's a lot in a nutshell (BTW: Great article, Peter!)

> However IMTU trends in high fashion are set by the Empress, and to a
> significantly lesser extent the Emperor [IMTU the Emperor, because his
> word is law, tends _not_ to comment on/influence fashion matters because
> 1) they are not worth his time 2) much of the tiem the clothing he wears
> is dictated by tradition [que Fiddler on the Roof music] and 3) if the
> Emperor says "I [or We] do not like that outfit." its wearer is
> commiting lese majesty therefore the Emperor tends not to say "I/We do
> not like that outfit."

A good point.  The Emperor is actually *too* powerful to achieve certain
goals: if he simply want's to guide or suggest a certain course of action,
he himself can't say it as Emperor, or it will be taken as orders.

And simply because Strephon SAYS that "it's just a suggestion" isn't
fooling anyone.  As one Roman philosopher said after losing an argument,
"I may have the better logic, but it's the Emperor who has the twelve
legions."

(Anyone has the exact quote?  I can't find it on the Web...).

Moreover, he would  have to contend with the endless flattery of the
courtier atitude ("Courtesan", a word decended from "female
courtier", also refers to a high-class prostitute).  As long as every
whim is law, he will continually have to filter the truth from the Yes-men
that always surrounds powerful people.

What's the use of suggesting something if every suggestion
always *appears* to be a resounding success, right up to the minute
the revolutionaries (aided by the Yes-men who just switched sides to
the new regime) burst into his bedchambers and shoot's him in his sleep?

So, if he want's to just nudge a man (or a society!) in the right direction,
the Emperor usually has to do it indirectly, through his wife and other
close family members, or through trusted nobles, intellectuals and aides.
( In certain varient Traveller Universes, the Imperial Catholic Church
would be usefull, as well...)

** High Archon **

A possible additional title that could belong to the Emperor
is High Archon, that is, "First among Equals" among
noble family Archons.  (An archon, BTW, is the head of
any given noble family).

As such, the Emperor or his representatives can mediate
between feuding or aggrivated noble families without
having to invoke Imperial power, keeping it in reserve
for problems that need it.  Also,  seperating the
powers of Emperor and High Archon allows the Emperor
to concentrate on economic/military affairs if he so
chooses, leaving the Hatfields and the McCoys
to others.  Of course, there are those Emperors
who *LIKE* sticking their fingers in dynastic
warfare: they can keep both titles of course.

** Alternate Universe  **

Aside: it's possible to create a varient Traveller
universe where the ruler would be actually
be the High Archon, *NOT* an Emperor.

In such a universe, the primary force
pre-Imperium would be the trading families,
keeping the arteries of commerse open during
the Long Night.  As the Night ended, the families
would eventually organize themselves into
Leagues and chains of obligation.  Finally,
a major charismatic figure, already the head of the
Sylean families, managed to get the Vilani families
to also unite under him, creating the office
of High Archon.

Which leads to the question: why did he never go
all the way, and have himself crowned Emperor,
like the First and Second Imperia?   Primarily,
because military and economic power was
never centralized in one man like Cleon Zhunastu:
the High Archons instead base their power on
diplomacy, excellent political skills, a reputation
for impeccable honesty (jealously guarded),
bloodline connections with all the major families,
and a sharp eye on bottom-line cost/benefit.

Note that the 1100 years of High Archon rule
would be fundamentally unstable, and more fluid and
eventful than the 1100 years of rule by an Emperor.
There would be more internal dissention and much more
subsector-level warfare between noble families for starters.
Warfare on the scale of the Rebellion would be impossible,
but on the other hand there would always be a few subsectors
or so in open revolt: few remain outside of the Imperium for
longer than a decade, as the benefits of trade are just so
great.  Tech level and cultural differences within a given region of
space would be much smaller, but differences between
regions would be greater and more noticeable.

It's umlikely that Core sector would reach the level of prominence
it has in the offical Traveller Universe: the Capital would have
shifted ocassionally to Vland, Terra, Dlan/Illeish, even the old
Second Imperium capital of Hub/Ershur.  The Imperium would be
fundamentally less centralised, with the High Archon *NOT*
ruling "The Space Between the Stars" but instead acting as
the final level of authority and law among noble merchant/military
families and the interstellar corporations that the nobility control.
Individual worlds simply would not matter to the Archon, except
as they interact with the Nobility.

Internal divisions would not be based on geometric, abstract
divisions of subsectors and sectors, but on the "sphere
of military power" of a given noble family. Massila sector may have
sixteen regular Dukes, but it's just as likely to have eight Dukes,
four Dukes, or even up to 20 Dukes.  It may not have *any*
Dukes, only ~50 interstellar Counts and Viscounts, with a weak
Senior Duke to represent them before the High Archon.

Observe that I'm using Noble Titles to represent military power:
also note that the High Archon has *no* access to the military
title of Emperor, because

A) There isn't a military threat that can't be handled at the
level of Archduke.
B) Giving someone that much power is just asking for them to
turn on you, breaking your family's wealth and power and giving
it to himself under various guises and rationales. (from
"It's the Will of God" to "In the Name of the People" to  "It's
more Efficent" to "It's an Emergency").

Even the title of Archduke is rarely given.  Unlike Senior Duke
and below, it's only available in wartime, only for five-year
terms, and no noble family can have that title more than once.
The granting of that title is by the authority of the Domain moot,
but can be resinded by the High Archon.

Note that the High Archon, while never Emperor, is always a
Senior Duke and could be elected an Archduke for one five-year
term.

** Patronage **

An ancient innovation that could be useful
3000 years from now is the concept of Patronage.
In effect, in the same way that the Scouts may recieve
special favours from the Crown Princess (patron of the
IISS), other groups may have specific nobles and
noble groups to look out for their interests.  Bwaps
may look up to the their senior noble, Solomani may
have a representative in the Archduchess of Sol,
Vilani can have the Archduke of Vland to push for
more Vilani nobles, etc.

This has the possibility of binding the Imperium
together, by focusing politics on nobles, not
territories.  Then again, it's always possible that it could
be used as a power base to thwart the Emperor's Will,
so His Majesty will be carefully watching the major
patrons.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:18:30 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather)

Someone wrote:

> > At 08:18 PM 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > >Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
> > >adventures, and why.

Wow, these all sound great.  And considering the fact that I never played or
reffed *any* of the published adventures, and own none of them, if any of
you feel like starting a Classic Trav Adventures PBEM, I'm virgin fodder for
these.


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:17:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

At 12:36 AM 4/11/99 EDT, you wrote:

><< Of course the fusion guns the armed escorts will be carrying will be used 
>to cook with, right?
>
>yeah, but I hope the SFPD are gamers...:-)

For BayCon it'd be the SJPD, and we'd keep it in the hotel.  Imagine taking
the Coffee Garden or Max's in a lightning attack.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:32:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

At 12:19 PM 4/11/99 +1000, you wrote:

>is interesting to note that in our r/w, Queen Elizabeth was a uniformed,
>military ambulance driver during WWII, that her sons were all members of the
>Royal Navy (and was it Prince Eddie that served in the Falklands as a
>helo-pilot in the war zone?)

HRH Prince Andrew was the chopper pilot in the Falklands conflict.
Evidently, he made quite an impression on some folks who had only seen him
as a playboy.

Great story about Elizabeth in WWII.  She had just finished her course in
engine maitenence, and announced that she was going to do a tune up of one
of the Royal Familiy's cars.  Spent serveral hours going over the engine,
then gathered everyone to show off her work.  Car wouldn't start.  Seems
her dad had swiped the distributor cap.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:26:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Favorite scenarios

At 09:15 AM 4/11/99 -0500, you wrote:

>For those of you unfamiliar with their work, their game company
>was called "GameLords, Ltd." If you ever have a chance to pick
>up any of their environmental booklets for Traveller, do so. 
>They're called "The Underwater Environment", "The Mountain 
>Environment", and "The Desert Environment." These booklets
>were written for CT but should easily convert to MT/TNE/T4.

Second that.  There was also "Startown Liberty", which provided pretty good
rules for using that Carousing-4 skill.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:02:35 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Campaign: Navy Blood

Campaign: Navy Blood
An abstract Merchant adventure

1112-037 Regina/Regina:Spinward Marches

     Masahuru Kawamori took a look at the golden Michael Tukera
building one last time.  After 17 years of service (8 years at the
subsector headquarters at Nausicaa, Regina) his layoff came as an
unwelcome surprise: he snickered about "cutting off the deadwood",
but never considered himself as one of them till three hours ago.
Even so, he always was a careful man, and had enough credits to
keep himself and his two kids fed until he could find a new position.
With his experience in Tukera, Masahuru knew it would
take less than a month till a position with the right salary opened up
for him.

1112-090

     Finally, little Kenji was asleep.  Masahuru again went to his
Datasphere account, and wearily looked over the responses
to his posted business plan. Nothing.  None of the polite but
non-commental requests for more information, not even the
worthless infoad's, promising sure results "for a nominal sum".
Nothing at all.

     Years of work, years of planning, years of saving.
All for naught.

     Off went the holoscreen.  In three days, the bank will try
to deduct 300 credits from his account, but fail.  Then the
notices, first electronic, then hardcopy, then in person.
With his old employment record, he might convince them
to hold off for a month or two, but no more.  Like
most families in the Nausicaa-Brasil metropolitan region,
Masahuru school's his children at home with government
issued software, but Children's Affairs will soon come in to
physically check on their health.  If they decide that he can
no longer fill his parental responsibilities... well, he'll cross
that bridge when he get's there.

1112-096

     Masahuru's skin crawled as he entered the Song Hall.
The closest analogue to a bar or a party zone on this planet,
the Hall's was where everyone gathered for most social
occasions.  Huge screens projected it's flashing, spastic
imagery, from news to sports to soft porn.  The noise level
was deafening, so you couldn't hear yourself think: the
overused subsonic/phenomone "mood enhansers" didn't
help, as the wave's of synthetic emotions clashed with each
other.

     Oh, Master of the Stars, I'd rather be playing Flashing Flares
with Nobu and Reni, Masahuru prayed silently.

     That's the spot, next to the completely incongruous formal
portrait of Emperor Strephon.  Pushing against the mass of
humaniti, Masahuru spotted some hard-eyed characters there,
three men which looked at the crowd like rave's
studying gheer herds. Knowing he's going to regret this,
Masahuru put on his "Happy to See You!" face and went up to
introduce himself.

**********************

     The PC's are part of a band of 5-10 old friends and
acquaintances.  Ex-Navy types, they are trying to make a second
career out of a microniche in the liner trade.  Specifically, they are
aware of vast number of Navy families who are scattered
across the sector, greatly separated from their serving men.  Typically,
when possible the Imperial Navy will give them vouchers to travel
to their husband's posting.

     Right now, the vet's are working out a deal with Naval Logistics,
putting out a tender for an Imperial contract to supplement the
major lines in this business.  The financial squeeze that Logistic's is
using is very, very tight, and so far there just doesn't seem to be a way
to make the number's work.  Moreover, the cost of
upgrading their ship, _The Wings of Honneanise_, to
Imperial Contract spec's continues to just eat the budget and
could scuttle the project all by itself.  Finally, NRVA, the
subsector-wide bank who has provided the venture capital, is
getting nervous and is insisting that new, updated
numbers be provided.

     To try to resolve these problems, the PC's have decided
to contact Masahuru.  They will provide a regular paycheck, but
in return they want his expertise to clean up the mess and get the
business moving.  Also, he is to provide 'advanced classes' in
starship economics to these ex-warrior's: they have gotten this
far on their own (thanks to determination, contacts and common
sense), but need a boost to get a deep understanding
on the financial subtlety's of their business.

**********************

     I don't have a copy of Far Trader, so the Referee will have
to settle the important details on his own. Still, some points
can be made to guide this campaign:

* Upgrading costs: Shipyard costs will be a constant thing to
  watch out for.  How much of a deal can be made with the local
  shipyard?  How about shopping around for the right price?  As
  the PC's are experienced vet's, they can certainly do some of
  the work, but how much can they do, and how will this sweat
  equity be paid for?  What did the lawyer say about the
  contract?  And the local ShipMaster's Association: what do they
  recommend? Finally, are there any discount's for Government work?

  It's best if all this is negotiated, rather than dice-rolled.  If a little
  light violence is considered desirable, illegal societies are
  probably available to help out, but check out the interest rate (and the
  collection agency, run of course by guy's named Vito).  Also, the
  ex-Navy guy's could hire out their services for a run or
  two with local StarMerc's, but they will need to get this
  OK'ed by NERV and the Imperial Navy's Logistic's office.
  It wouldn't do to run an Imperial Contractor as your day job, and
  a pirate group on the side....

  More peaceably, additional financing could be raised up with
  more partner's, but more partner's mean less control over the
  business, and NERV/Logistics may not like this.  If the money
  situation doesn't improve, NERV or the Imperial Government
  will press the PC's to sell more control to themselves, or even
  force them out of the business due to debt.  Afterward's, they
  could be hired on by NERV/the Imperium, and possibly
  forced out (Simply fired, or given an empty desk with an
  empty job to do).

* The Ship: _The Wings of Honneanise_ is meant to be a fairly
   large liner, in the 600 - 1000 disp ton range.  It is meant to be
   old and fairly cheap, but with jump 2-3 capasity.  Just as an
   example, we could use the Aramine-class liner as our stand-in
   (I'm using BITS 101-ships document,  which you can get from
   their website www.bits.org.uk in the Archive section.
   The nice thing about 101-ships is that the document also holds
   the details of the ship's construction, allowing easy modification - for
a
   price).

  The 1200-disp ship is designed for a crew of 13, with 40 high
  passengers and 40 low passengers.  The hold is being shrunk,
  it's space being used for an additional 42 staterooms, another
  40 low berths and three special rooms: a parlor, a public
  kitchenette (so the passengers can cook their own family's food
  if so desired), and a rec room for the kids.  The high passenger
  space is being largely reclassified for middle passage, with three
  rooms being merged for the wives of flag-ranked officers, or other
  "Special needs" passengers.  Probably an additional steward or
  two will be hired.

  Currently, it's assumed that each middle-passenger will have two
  children under 13 in the same room, and the high-passage
  ticket will have a servant as well.  This requirement means
  that life support need's to be strengthened to handle the load,
  yet another cost.

* Imperial demands: The Imperial Contract's revenue initially slim,
  and will grow as the PC's prove themselves to IN Logistics.  IF
  the PC's get modification cost's under control or otherwise
  manages to get it paid without too much debt, then the PC's
  are good to go.  If the referee decides that the PC's didn't get
  the cost's contained, then the only option short of giving up is
  to get the Imperium to cough up more credits per run.
  Some options:

     - Get paid an additional retainer for on-call grey/black
operation support
     -  Same as above, but for emergency troop transport
     - Be able to sell unused tickets to the general public
     - Occasionally rent out the ship for a month or two for charter
operations
     - Get paid by the jump, rather than by the ticket
     - Get paid more per ticket (this is most difficult)
     - Get paid for a full passenger load, regardless if the passenger list
is full or not (this ain't easy, either!) .
     - Get the ship repaired for free (or at a low, low cost) at Imperial
Navy facilities, at least to start out

Negotiating all this will take time.  The PC's will probably have to
separate, some to continually supervise the upgrade of
_The Wings of Honneanise_ on Regina and insure that they aren't
being cheated, and the other to Mora, capital of the
sector (as well as the entire Domain of Deneb) to personally jump
through the hoops and get some face time with the Naval Officer
in charge of this project. Just the transport to and from Mora can take
one-to-two months.

Also, someone can go to NERV headquarters at nearby Allel
(Regina:Spinward Marches 1706 B46789C-A) to try to ease the
terms of the loan: this is rather unlikely according to their loan manager,
however.  The world is quite pleasant for a low-G world, but the law
level is intrusive and highly bureaucratic (more Japanese-style
ultra-polite, "Yes Means Maybe" bureaucracy than "This is the
Way We ALWAYS Do It!" Vilani-style red tape).
The astute visitor may notice rare glimpses of apparent
'mysticism' in NERV: investigating further, while probably quite
interesting, is outside of this document and will have to be left to
the discretion of the referee.

[Hint to referee: consider the company's motto:
"GOD'S IN HIS HEAVEN. ALL'S RIGHT WITH THE WORLD".
Don't be trite: What is it that NERV is *really* driving at? ]

* Running the Liner

So all the money is squared away, the licences have been
secured, and the _Wings of Honneanise_ is ready to lift.
After the teething problems, certain things tend to stand
out with operating this ship, in comparison to other liners

  - Lot's of women and small kids.  The wives tend to
be somewhat conservative, and they may pump the
ex-Navy crew for info about their husbands, Navy rumours,
or anything else that come to their minds.  Someof these
women were raised in a Navy family: more clued in than
their sisters, they often know what to ask, and what
not to ask.  It's possible that they have had a prior
connection with the PC's and may ask for a
favour or even be in a position to GIVE a favour.

The Imperial Navy is an intensely political organization,
and is the fundamental basis of political power in the
Third Imperium.  Because of this, the PC's will have to
"forget they heard" certain information, and sometimes
be extremely careful in what they say: you never know
who's listening.


Taking care of the kids will be a priority: superior
childcare one of the major reason's why the families
is using _Wings of Honneanise_  instead of, say,
Oberlindes Lines for their transportation.  Much of this
will be left to the stewards, but the grizzled ex-Navy
PC's will occasionally have to deal with it.
Be nice, folks: mommy is watching.

  - Upon occasion, the ship will be drafted to withdraw
Navy and Noble families from certain hostile regions.
The PC's might get the Navy to provide a bit of covering
fire if needed, but most of the time they will be
expected to handle the situation themselves.
This will be rare event.

  - Romantic involvements with the passengers is
best avoided: dueling is a tradition within the Navy,
and there are some people you don't want to make mad.

  - Because of the PC's semi-offical status, they may
be tempted to do a little smuggling on the side.
Forget it: this isn't a free trader, and it's WAYYY to easy
for the Imperium to track your patterns, and root you out.

  - If the PC's get a good reputation going and start running
a solid profit, then after about two years NERV and/or IN
Logistics office will ask the PC's to expand their operation
to two ships.  This would be a good time to renegotiate
profit-sharing, taking the company public, buying out either
NERV or the IN's share, etc.  The IN will want to reduce
or eliminate their subsidies, and may ease up on their
"on-call" rights to the PC's ship.  NERV will want the
business to grow, extend the credit line, retire/rollover
old debt and basically rake in more money.


(Despite NERV's vague religious aura, it's a business,
not a charity, and behaves like a business.... mostly)

  - And what about Masahuru Kawamori?  He'll probably
be a senior employee by this time, and possibly remarried.
As a father, he may provide a few pointers in running the
ship that typically childless PC's would miss.  It's possible
that, if he really provides good value for his time, he'll want
to have a share in the company and the company's
profits.  Besides the Referee's unofficial advisor to
the players, he may or may not be feeding info to his
old employer: even so, it's unlikely that Tukera Lines will
want to horn in such a tiny business niche:
it's too expensive to operate in for the limited profits available.


* Navy Culture

As the PC's are ex-Navy, they will tend to react to live in
the Navy Way, in contrast to the local culture of the
Merchants and Traders.  Exactly how Navy and Merchant
culture clashes occurs depends on the Referee: some guesses
and stereotypes include:
   ex-Navy vet's may focus on lines of authority and rank,
in comparason to Merchant spacers
   Merchant focus on cheapness, rather than quality
   Merchant avoidance of the Regs, while Navy-raised spacers
accepts and enforces them
   Merchants tend look on the Navy as adversaries (unless
the pirates or warfare is occuring)

   The ex-Navy types may be more likely to fink on Merchant
illegal activities, as their symphathy is for the Patrol Cutter,
not the grey-market Free Traders.
   The ex-Navy types may be given more margin by Navy
personnel (they may know each other personally, or
"a friend of a friend".
   The ex-Navy guys and Merchants have access to two different
rumour gravevines.

*  Long term

    It's most likely that the PC's will never expand past
Regina subsector boundaries: the market for transporting
Navy families is quite limited, and is usually folded in
standard liner operations.  Of course, there will be
occasional runs to Mora, and possibly - if the PC's
get a sterling record for service and discretion - even
a run to Capital with the families of Flag-level officers.


The campagn need never expand past this level:
there's more than enough excitement in a single
subsector for the creative referee to keep the PC's
hopping for as long as they play Traveller.  If the PC's
do get bored, have them sell off their Contract and
the ship, use the funds for a brand-new venture.

Also quite likely is failure.  IF so, then the PC's
are out on the street again.  They may have made
several new contacts, and quite possibly sone new
enemies also.  They may have been driven
to bankruptcy, which has it's own adventuring possibilities.

Most unlikely, but not outside the realm of reality, is the PC's
becoming wildly successful.  The demand for transportation of
Imperial-service families grows as a distinct part of the liner
industry, and the PC's start running their own specialized
subsector line.  Demand grows to include Imperial Army,
Imperial Marine, and even some Imperial Civil Service families.
Hiring the right people and getting better ship's becomes
a priority:and with an expansion of operations is a greater
need for quality control.  The young company strains to
keep up with demand as it grows past subsector borders,
encompassing the Spinward Marches and possibly the entire Domain.


Infrastructure demands - the need for more berths, or
even a company-owned starport on certain worlds -
start taking the PC's away from their ship.  Local planetary
politicians and low-ranking nobles begin to "just drop by",
trying to get their worlds on the PC's route (regardless if it's
possible, or even desireable).  Vendor's start bothering the
PC's, promising everything from toys to stardrive repairs
"at prices you can afford".  Moreover, pressure to "flex the rules"
appear's from criminal organizations, or substantial bribes and
kick-backs ("around here,  you get either the gold or the lead...")

Labour starts to act up, asking for more salaries, an easier
operations tempo, and more time with their families: they may
unionise.  At least one scandal erupts, which the PC's will have
to resolve while conducting operatons.  And here comes the press,
asking all sorts of questions about this company that came from
nowhere.  Did I mention the Imperial Revenue cutter that just arrived
from Mora?  It seems that there have been certain anonymous
allegations of tax evation: we're sure that everything is
above board, and since you have nothing to hide, you will
be more than happy to open your books for an Imperial Audit....

Meantime, a ton of copycat lines spring up, and the big boys (including
Tukera Lines and it's affiliates) start showing up to grab your lunch.
Besides the usual dirty tricks that will keep the PC's lawyers busy for
years, evidence grows that there is a high-level leak in the PC's business:
is Masahuru Kawamori, the ex-Tukera man,  the traitor?  Or is it
someone else?

As the possibility of a Corporate War grows, the PC's will need to call
in their old Navy buddies as they gear up.  The Navy itself get's
real pissed when attacks are made against ship's carrying Navy and
Marine families, while competing companies start a) insisting how
innocent they are b) how the PC's alone are at fault - see how slack their
security is c) see how perfectly clean the competitor's record is.

    This entire situation can turn real, real ugly.


    Especially if the Navy start doing reprisals, in kind.



    And assuming the PC's actually survive Armageddon?


They will need to rebuild from their losses, regain the favour of
Imperial Logistics, and figure out "what now?".  This depends on
how badly things turned out: they might all be in small sub-atomic
particles, or in prison awaiting execution, or hiding out in Zhodani
space.

Also possible is that a deal was somehow worked out that averted/
ended the Corporate War.  The Imperium would be most pleased if no
harm fell on the military families, and grow in anger the more
pain and suffering fell on those wives and kids. Note that the security
of those people is far more important to the Imperium (especially
the Imperial Navy ) than any financial or personnel losses the PC's
may suffer.

[Aside: one of the reasons for the Contract in the first place was
the IN's trust in fellow ex-Navy vet's to take care of their families,
rather than some money-grubbing MegaCorp out for the fastest
credit.  Breaking that trust will have Regrettable Consequeces.]

Well, even if by extraordinary hard work, outrageous luck and
unflinching courage against Real Bad Odds they get to the
Domain-level of businesses, they will still need to expand their
business niche from transporting the families of Imperial servants
if they want to compete head-to-head against Tukera Lines, rather
then remaining within a niche market.

This probably will NOT be allowed by the Archduke, unless the PC's are
really, really serious, with big-time financing, major noble support
(meaning
several ruling nobles at the major world/subsector level with at least
one Sector Duke on their side), and substantial evidence that their
business will provide major benefits to the Imperium, as a whole.

At this level, the PC's aren't really in it for the money anymore,
except as a way to keep score.  They can just as easily work out a 'mutually
beneficial deal' with Tukera Lines, selling the company to Tukera at
a very nice price, becoming a independent subsidiary, linked by
cross-owned shares, or by simply remaining in their niche, leaving most
of the pie to Tukera while protecting their turf with low contract prices,
high service, and a system of mutual favours with the Navy.

If the PC's decide that they really want to build a genuine, for real
MegaCorporation across the entire Imperium, well, my imagination stalls
at this point, so I will give the floor to others.  I'll only note that
timespan needed is probably in the two century plus range,
assuming everything works out (a near impossibility).
Relationships with the other MegaCorporations need to be worked
out, as well as relations with the Nobility, the Emperor/Emperess,
and the Navy.  The culture of the MegaCorp also need's to be built
(expect heavy Navy influence).  Finally, the PC's will have to decide
who will be their major shareholders:  it will prove impossible to avoid
selling ownership to at least some senior nobles (they'll expect
good prices!):  the Imperial family, and any allied MegaCorporations
will look kindly on you if you sell them a cut, too.

(PS: This adventure was inspired by Federal Express, founded
and staffed in the early years by ex-US Air Force personnel.  Call it
a "sector-level" corporation....)



Alvin Plummer

    "I'm fighting for God and for truth and for morality and for
decency. When we quit doing these things we might as well lay down
and die."
          - Winston Churchill

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #433
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 11 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 434



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Imperial Fashions
11 Apr 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Re: Fav Adventure
Re: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny:  "Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er"
Re: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny:  "Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er"
Re: drop tanks and drop tanks redux
Re: Fav Adventure
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather) 
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Imperial Fashion
High-powered weaponry
Re: Drop Tanks GURPS only
Re: High-powered weaponry
Re: Fav Adventure
Interstellar Trade, from the Milieu Zero Book
Re: High-powered weaponry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:13:35 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

At 01:28 AM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>1) Sky Raider trilogy, Keith brothers, FASA.  
>
>2) Twilight's Peak, Adventure #3, GDW
>
>3) Ordeal on Eshaar (FASA) or Annic Nova (DA#1a).
>
>I liked the Annic Nova, but never could figure out how to turn it into a
>good adventure without making it too much like a dungeon crawl and yet not
>lose the 'investigating eerie mystery' flavor.  Anyone have any
>suggestions/experience?  Given that, Ordeal on Eshaar probably wins as
>written.  

A follow up to the Annic Nova bit: Do any later supplements ever describe
in further detail  the origins of this vessel?

As for favorite adventures:

1) Memory Alpha (That's the one that comes with the T4 GM's screen)

2) Annic Nova

3) Most of the stuff in "Missions of State" (T4)




          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:47:19 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"
>>  5      14406   5.14617626886145
>>  6      16807   6.0038723136717  <---------
>>  7      11832   4.22668038408779
>>
>
> Is it just a coincidence that the most likely jump distance is the same as
> the maximum "controlled" jump limit?

Probably. But you also have to note that while that *is* a "peak" in
the distribution curve, it's not a very prominent one."

	Also remember that the average misjump will be higher than 6.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:05:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Stuart Ferris wrote:

> I have a female friend who is getting married this summer and is also in the
> military. She is getting married in a white bridal dress. I think most
> women, even in the services, would prefer to get married in a dress.

Well, naturally.  The desire of women to wear dresses is a human
universal, after all, and so applies even to those most un-womanly women
in the military.  :|

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:38:18 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: 11 Apr 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource has posted its most recent update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.html.  With
this update, Dave Nelson gives us two complete adventures, which
can be found in Active Measures.

Also, we've replaced the 101 Starships download file with an
uncorrupted copy; we apologize for the delay in doing so, and
extend our thanks to those who noticed the problem and reported
it.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages are still
not working, your questions, comments, and ideas are always
welcome at Freelance Traveller.  Please write to
freetrav@hotmail.com with any and all of them.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us,
making our existence possible.
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-1999.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:53:59 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure

>Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
>adventures, and why.

1. Lords of Thunder in MTJ #4
One of the best adventures of any RPG, in my opinion. An epic campaign in
an Imperial client state combining trade, mercenaries, espionage, piracy,
scientific research, exploration, alien civilizations, one huge fleet
battle, and the revelation of a Traveller Secret. This is the only
Traveller adventure I have seen that makes pirates believable, and the only
one that reveals a Secret which isn't implausibly contrived to draw the
player characters into it. It would be a great adventure even if the
players only sat back and watched news reports, but they can do far better
for themselves by rushing into the thick of things.

2. Fifth Frontier War by GDW
Yeah I know this is a board game, but the best adventure I ever played used
the turns of this game as the back story. It's hard enough trying to
courier messages for the Baron without huge Sword World fleets jumping in
to ruin your day.

3. Twilight's Peak by GDW
The canonical Traveller adventure. The players try to track down a lost
scout shipment while hints of war swirl around them. Don't make the mistake
of rushing to the conclusion too quickly.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:15:10 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny:  "Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er"

On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:51:32 -0400, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

><< Subject:  Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er

>  >YOU'RE LOST BETWEEN A BABY BOOMER AND A GEN X'ER IF...

>  >5.  Three words: ATARI, IntelliVision and Coleco, sound familiar.

Hit.

>  >12.You've recently horrified yourself by using any one of the following phrases:
>  >When I was younger... When I was your age...You know, back when...

Hit.

>  >17.The phrase "Where's the beef," still doubles you over with laughter.

Hit.

>  >18.You honestly remember when film critics raved that no movie could ever
>  >possibly get better special effects than those in the movie TRON.

Hit.

>  >30.This rings a bell: "...and my name is Charlie. They work for me."

Hit.

>  >44.You remember Bo and Luke Duke.

Hit.

>  >47.You remember rotary dial telephones.

Hit.

>  >49.The theme song to Greatest American Hero still comes back to you on occasion
>  >(BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I'M WALKING ON AIR...)

Hit.  Bastard.

27 IX 1963.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:23:54 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: very OT and Amerocentric, but funny:  "Caught Between a Boomer and an X'er"

Sucks, doesn't it?  My "baby" sister is 21, married, and has a baby.
Sometimes it just sucks getting older, but then again Traveller helps us
stay "younger" :)

Jesse - 2/67
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact"


>Hit.  Bastard.
>
>27 IX 1963.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:42:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks and drop tanks redux

Shawn Campbell wrote:
> 
> >Ian Whitchurch wrote:
> > However, I'm confused about the exact case - why in the name of the Credit
> > Imperial dont you just load the cargo into an A2 and be done with it in
> one
> > hit ?
> 
> I just picked the Free Trader as an example. Maybe it's just my TU, but Free
> Traders(A), Far Traders(A2) and subsidized merchants(R) are a lot more
> common than 8000 dton freighters.
> 
That could just be that you haven't found any good 8000 dton freighter
designs.  Sensing a possible market, AuricTech Shipyards will provide a
(T4 FF&Sv2) design "on spec."  I should have a design roughed out in the
next few hours.  Base parameters are for performance equal to a
Subsidized Liner (Type M):  Jump-3 and 1G acceleration.  I'll probably
streamline it for landings/frontier refueling, though.  We'll see.

And no, this ship will _not_ be fitted (in its orginal configuration)
for drop tanks.

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:49:50 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure

Richard Hough wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> 2. Fifth Frontier War by GDW
> Yeah I know this is a board game, but the best adventure I ever played used
> the turns of this game as the back story. It's hard enough trying to
> courier messages for the Baron without huge Sword World fleets jumping in
> to ruin your day.
> 
I did something similar with "Imperium."  As this was before the
Solomani Rim supplement came out, I generated world stats using Book 3. 
Great fun for a novice GM!

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:31:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather) 

> 
> 1. Shadows 2. Twlights Peak 3. The GM Notes in BtC....Theres enough stuff in there to keep 10 campaigns going...
> 
> BTW...My local hobby shop has old copies of the Sky Raiders Trilogy...all the good things said about it..makes me want to go get it!

*GET THEM*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You'll thank yourself later.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:38:53 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:57:15 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>Exactly. When you are writing an adventure set on Vanejen, you don't waste
>>space on a description of the passenger traffic between Rhylanor and Mora.
> 
>That would work if the Traveller background wasn't anything more than a
>series of adventures.  But there is material that purports to describe
>what a typical liner is like, what cargo costs, whether military/scout
>vessels can jump in without fuel, etc.

Sure, but that material is far from comprehensive. So far you haven't come
up with any canonical facts that prove that drop tanks do not exist.

>>Isn't it equally odd that no description of the politics of the Darrians
>>mentions the Avalar Consulate, a large, Zhodani-friendly multi-stellar
>>society about as close to the Darrians as the Imperium is?
> 
>Maybe, I'm not familiar with what you describe.  Even if it is, I
>don't see having on mistake much of a reason to add more.

My point is that not mentioning the avalar Consulate (it's in Foreven Sector,
mentioned in _Imperiallines #1_) wasn't a mistake, since GDW simply didn't
have the space to mention it earlier than they did. Since 99.9999-and-I-
don't know-how-many-more-digits % of the information about the Traveller
Universe has not been written yet, I don't think it is wise to argue that
the failure to mention something is proof that it dosen't exist. I'll grant
you that it's evidence to that effect, but hardly proof.
 
>>I don't recall any cargoes in _TA_ that was carried that all far between any
>>worlds that I would consider suitable for drop tank freighters. How about
>>some examples?
> 
>The point is, rather than wandering over the sector, they will only be able
>to carry cargoes to worlds that get few ships.

Correction: To and from worlds that are not linked by drop tank service.
Drop tank service will be between pairs of worlds with a lot of trade. It
won't be between worlds with lots of ships and worlds with few.

>>They shouldn't be able to compete with large corporate ships either (large
>>ships are more economic than small ships by any Traveller rules). But they
>>can, because they exploit the cracks between the corporate structure.
> 
>Well, Far Trader makes this possible because you take spot cargoes
>the big corps aren't interested in.  There problem here is that
>you can't compete with drop tank tramp ships either.

Drop tank tramp ships? My guess is that drop tank service and tramp ships
will be incompatible. How do you figure otherwise?
 
>>>It should also meant that PC will, if they need to get someplace in a hurry
>>>have to decide if they want to switch to j-6 drop ships (as opposed
>>>to switching to a jump-3 or jump-4 liner).
> 
>>So it should, always assuming that the PCs are in a place with drop liner
>>service and want to go to another place with drop liner service. So?
> 
>It makes a difference.  It means that when I want to construct
>a believable setting (or SJGs writes stuff for me) effort that
>could go to other things has to go to making sure that all the
>drop tanks are presented believably, that players choices
>reflect the existance of them, etc.

This applies equally to a host of other issues that are usually similarily
glossed over. You're not writing an economic dissertation about drop tanks,
you are running a game. Just make up something that sounds reasonable.
Shouldn't take you more than a few minutes.

Better yet, persuade someone to write a sourcebook where the problem is
thoroughly explored and proper rules for dealing with it presented.

>Well, if you are imaginative there are things you can do about this (like
>have tender ships that have tanks that can then collapse down allowing
>them to become a small ship to jump themselves).

This is illegal by CT rules.

>That assumes you don't instead make tanks that can collapse back into the
>war ship to bring itself. (That is part of the problem when you introduce
>a new technology assuming you can see all the impacts, people are going to
>start having ideas).

It's also a problem when you start out with a technology without exploring
all the ramifications. Drop tanks miss being a start-up technology for
Traveller by a short whisker; it's been CT since _High Guard_.

However, that particular ramification is also illegal by CT rules. You can't
make collapsible drop tanks. Guess that must be a relief to you, right ;-)?
 
>Sure they might not be useful _every_ time, but they don't have to be to
>have a big impact.

This is coming down to another of those faith things. I don't deny that
drop tanks will affect naval strategy, and I don't claim that I can prove
just how big or little it will be. But neither can you prove that they
will make so big a difference as you claim. I can tell you that if you
want to use them all over the place, then the cost mounts up, even with
_High Guard_ prices. If you use G:T prices they will definitely become a
budget issue.

>In the FFW they could have been used to allow a huge fleet to jump from
>Alell to Jewel, attack anyone they catch by surprise, and jump right out.
>The fact is that with drop tanks Jewel was not particularly cut off.

Sure, if they had been available in the sizes and configurations needed to
make it work. Now, do you really think that it is implausible to the point
of rejection that the Zhodani did not have enough drop tanks available to
do so? I sure don't.

>They may not be much for commerce raiding and other fast moving sitatuations,
>but they would have been great for launching major strikes in something like
>the FFW.  After all, moving a bunch of drop tankers 6 parsecs won't be slow
>compared to the time it takes to take a world and reduce resistance. Unless
>you are planning on leaving enemy occupied worlds behind you....

This is simply a bunch of unproven assumptions. You may or may not be right
or partly right, but you really have no way of knowing for sure. We don't
even know if the Zhodani have drop tank technology yet, or if they've had
it long enough to build drop tanks in sizable numbers.

>>>Right, and the context of why Oberlindes hires them should fit the
>>>background.  If they are being driven out of business by drop tanks,
>>>then I expect that to be reflected in what my PC see.
>>
>>So it would appear that they are not being driven out of business by drop
>>tanks. That dosen't prove that drop tanks dosen't exist.
> 
>The problem is that no corp is feeling the effects.

You don't know that, because we have no information about that.

>They would change the fundamentals of shipping be we are suppose to believe
>that _none_ of the corps scored big or went bust???

We don't know who scored big and who went bust. All we know is the names of
13 megacorporations and a handful of smaller outfits that didn't go bust.

>>The Zhodani already has to protect all their territory.
> 
>And now instead of having to protect 6 parsecs deep against ships that can
>jump in without fuel to refill, they have to protect 6 parsecs deep against
>ships that can attack with full tanks in case defenses are too big (and can
>raid without fueling) and also protect _another_ 6 parsecs deep against
>ships without fuel.

You didn't understand what I wrote. They already have to defend ALL their
territory, all the way back to Zhdant. Not just 6 or 12 parsecs deep from
their borders, but ALL their territory.
 
>>Laying out deep
>>space fuel depots is very expensive, but it is possible.
> 
>Yeah, very expensive and logistically difficult. Enough so that being able
>to do it easily will make it the sort of deep raids the states would
>consider worth the effort every now and then to be a routine tatic,
>something you can do with only a fraction of the preparation that was need
>before.

I think you are exaggerating the effect, but it really dosen't matter,
because you can't prove that this very change in tactical doctrine is not
taking place.
 
>>>letting them jump in with full loads (the Imperials don't have to worry
>>>about running High Guard), they either take the system and fuel at their
>>>leasure or just jump back out,
>>
>>They can do that ONCE. Then they either have to wait for their drop tanks
>>to be ferried into the system, or to go on without them.
> 
>You are missing the point.

No, you are. I never said drop tanks wouldn't affect naval doctrine. In
fact, I said it would. We disagree about just how much (and I don't mind
admitting that your guess is as good as mine (well, almost ;-)), but that
really isn't relevant, because there's nothing in the canon to say that
these changes aren't taking place somewhere off stage.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:48:23 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

>What's pragmatic ship dress?

My PC's tend to wear skinsuits (GURPS:UT26) while in normal space, and
coverall/short sets while in jumpspace.  Planetside, on a standard
oxygen-nitrogen world Monocrys lined coveralls are typical, unless special
environmental clothing is needed.  Some wear Ablative/heavy monocrys vests
with lots of pockets.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:59:27 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: High-powered weaponry

Hi all,

I read some opinions about allowing high-powered weapons
to fall into players' hands, and I guess I have to shove my oar
in.

If you don't know how to referee high-powered weapons,
then you need to learn.  I don't know how to referee them.
They can't be treated as just a bigger gun (a.k.a. Quake
and Doom), because they can upset the game balance.
Also, some universe credibility might be at stake: why does
the world suddenly get meaner when the group gets Fusion
Guns?

The feeling of Godhood from owning a PGMP-13 should be
tempered with some rules... maybe we should treat these
energy weapons more like starships, with a dozen little modules
that need regular care + maintenance... at a cost, of course.
Like, just for instance, a plasma gun has:

1. armor mount clamps and interface-logic circuits
2. power supply, with regulators and "capacitors".
3. a plasma chamber where the fun begins
4. a focusing element
5. perhaps a magnetic impeller, projector, or emitter
6. all kinds of shielding

You got a gun?  Okay, each time you use it you are
contributing to its wear and tear.  High-tech parts cost
credits, and the higher the tech, the more complex the
care needed.  You can't clean the barrel of a fusion gun
with a bit of cloth diaper attached to a steel rod... you
may end up killing yourself if you do.

Can you say maintenance points?

And Another Thing.  These guns are Imperial Military only;
civilians can't buy them, can't own them, can't be seen with
them.  One would assume they are lent out to complete a
mission, after which they are repossessed.

Perhaps... just perhaps... there are components that need
regular conditioning, at exorbitant prices -- once a month
or after every use.  To prevent "leaking".  How's that
sound?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:52:15 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks GURPS only

At 08:23 pm 4/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On 04/10/99 15:12:03 Terry C. wrote:
>>So what is a drop tank? I maintain that it is a demountable tank
that can be
>>quickly shed after jump, instead of taking the longer time to
remove
>>standard demountable tanks. At least in GURPS:Traveller.  (As
always all
>>GURPS rules are optional)
>
>	FWIW, this is my preferred explanation as well.  It seems to
conform 
>best with canon background and creates fewer problems than other 
>explanations.  There are just too many tricks you can pull
commercially and 
>militarily with the "drop-before-jump" tanks.

	The biggest (and fatal) problem with this (from a "canon" POV) is
that it requires that you jump *with* the tank ... and hence your
displacement includes the jump tanks, and hence you are limited to
your jump capability at the higher volume.

	The key feature of jump tanks, and what makes them both useful and
such a pain, is that they are dumped *before* jump ... hence your
ship's displacement is smaller, and the jump drive can throw you
further. It's precisely this feature that causes such firefights over
how "jump fuel" is used. It implies that all of the fuel in the tanks
is used in a very short time ... but not to generate energy that
could be used for anything else.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:16:11 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: High-powered weaponry

At 04:59 pm 4/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I read some opinions about allowing high-powered weapons
>to fall into players' hands, and I guess I have to shove my oar
>in.
>
>If you don't know how to referee high-powered weapons,
>then you need to learn.  I don't know how to referee them.
>They can't be treated as just a bigger gun (a.k.a. Quake
>and Doom), because they can upset the game balance.
>Also, some universe credibility might be at stake: why does
>the world suddenly get meaner when the group gets Fusion
>Guns?

	Because a fusion gun draws more attention than something else. Test
this out in Real Life: have a hundred people walk down any major
city's streets with concealed weapons. Do nothing illegal to draw
attention to yourself. Note how many have law enforcement encounters.
Next day, send those hundred people walking down the same city's
streets, carrying a shotgun. Note how many have encounters, and the
level of those encounters.

	If you're running around with fusion guns, of COURSE the authorities
(and the bad guys, and the uninvolved-but-armed bystanders) are going
to react with more force, on average, than if you're carrying body
pistols.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:20:05 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure

	My two favorites are:
"It Beats Shoveling Shemdur on Aramanx, Barely"
     and
 "The Star of People's Justice"

Both of which are found at Freelance Traveller

		er,    NOT Dave Nelson, the guy who wrote them.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:29:31 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Interstellar Trade, from the Milieu Zero Book

I finally sat down and went over the M:0 hardcover; in
particular, I read about the steps taken to bring in a
fronteir world into the 3I.  They measure a world's
readiness to join the Imperium by its annual trade with
the Imperium (with respect to political maneuverings, of
course).

Here's what they say: a world is ready to become a
"stable part of the inner community" (read: fully
priveleged member world of the Imperium) when its
trade "approaches or exceeds millions of tons per year".
1,000,000 tons per year is, roughly, 20,000 tons per
week.

Is this what the average Imperial world trades with
the Imperium per year?  Tentatively, I'd say this
corresponds to Imperial worlds on the X-Boat route
mainly, though I could be wrong... am I?

Going back to my old saw, the Spinward Marches,
I can see Regina, Rhylanor, Mora, etc plowing tens
of thousands of tons of cargo per week; however, I
can't see it on Tureded or Treece, or even Fulacin
or Inthe.

In fact, here are the worlds my rules-o-thumb would
point to as 20,000+ tons-per-week worlds in the Marches.
As you may see, the central worlds have the benefit of
more trade, which results in inflated numbers.  This may
be plausible, but may not be desirable and therefore may
need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Iderati   22k
Jewell    78k
Gram     45k
Sacnoth 43k
Efate      77k
(Regina   14k... about the same as several of the Sword Worlds!)
Glisten    62k
Lunion    144k   !!!!
Capon    63k
Strouden  97k  !!
Bendor    45k
Rhylanor  20k
Mora       48k

Anyone got any opinions here?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:29:24 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: High-powered weaponry

In a message dated 4/11/99 6:03:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
washi@metronet.com writes:

<< 
 And Another Thing.  These guns are Imperial Military only;
 civilians can't buy them, can't own them, can't be seen with
 them.  One would assume they are lent out to complete a
 mission, after which they are repossessed.
  >>

	Ahh, there's the rub, they ain't.    Local army units can also 
possess high powered weaponry, and it's up to the local government to 
determine what its "army" consists of,   high powered hand weapons might be 
more prevalent than you might at first think.  
	 But, in any case, I've never let my players get their hands on high 
energy weapons except for one PGMP-12, which didn't unbalance things too 
much, since it isn't all that much more powerful than an autocannon or other 
light vehicle weapon.  Likewise, even though my campaigns usualluy evolve 
into mercenary campaigns, usually the unit is a light infantry unit in 
cloth/flex carrying ACR type weapons.   I keep the PCMP's and battledress to 
a minimum.  But when they did get one, I let them use it!
	In a similar vein,  once a player privateer/merc group got their own 
grav tech with plasma cannon.   And yes, the oppositiojn got tougher, because 
the players could take more dangerous tickets.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #434
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 11 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 435



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

How much time does it take to build a starship?
Re: Imperial Fashion
Re: Imperial Fashion
World Conquest
Re: Favorite scenarios 
Re: World Conquest
T4 Gunsmith v1.30
Re: World Conquest
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Skill Specialization
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Favorite scenarios 
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather) 
Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Re: Imperial Fashions
Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
Re: World Conquest
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:39:36 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: How much time does it take to build a starship?

As others mentioned, there are a lot of factors in
building a starship.  My handwaves were really
to figure out how long it took to build a starship.
I don't think any material since CT tried to guess.

Anyone have ideas on this?

- -Rob

P.S. As far as starport cost, I have some wild
hands-waving-all-over-the-place guesses on my
website at

www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Calida_Orbital/StarportModuleCatalog.html

...and as for revenue from maintenance, I'd say that
is directly related to yearly traffic estimates, which is
another bowl of wax entirely:

www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Calida_Orbital/RobNJonStarport.html
www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Survey/SpinwardM1100.html
www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Survey/SpinwardStarports.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:38:02 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

My current PBEM character in Roger Barr's game ALWAYS wears a standard issue
Scout tailored vacc suit (he's very paranoid about a blow out), along with
the requisite Utility Vest.
Jesse



>>What's pragmatic ship dress?
>
>My PC's tend to wear skinsuits (GURPS:UT26) while in normal space, and
>coverall/short sets while in jumpspace.  Planetside, on a standard
>oxygen-nitrogen world Monocrys lined coveralls are typical, unless special
>environmental clothing is needed.  Some wear Ablative/heavy monocrys vests
>with lots of pockets.
>
>Terry C.
>
>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:52:11 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
: My current PBEM character in Roger Barr's game ALWAYS wears a standard
issue
: Scout tailored vacc suit (he's very paranoid about a blow out), along
with
: the requisite Utility Vest.

Once, when I got sick of players who insisted that their characters
would wear their Vacc, Ablat and Cloth get up at all times, I had those
players wear insulated coveralls and rainslicker for our game night.
They got the point after about twenty minutes. :-)


V.Adm. C. D. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
http://www.downport.com/ct

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:14:20 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: World Conquest

What does it take to conquer a world?

Seems to me that it's better to conquer a world
politically than militarily -- Lao Tzu knew that
thousands of years ago (better to win a war
without fighting).  The Milieu Zero hardcover
book has lots of great detail about this.

Doesn't this change the nature of interstellar
warfare, then, to more economic than military?
Doesn't the military come in under planetary
warfare rather than interstellar warfare?

How can you possibly establish a beachhead
on a hostile world, unless they are four or five
TLs under you?  And in that case, how can
you expect to hold the world usefully?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:12:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Favorite scenarios 

> At 09:15 AM 4/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >For those of you unfamiliar with their work, their game company
> >was called "GameLords, Ltd." If you ever have a chance to pick
> >up any of their environmental booklets for Traveller, do so. 
> >They're called "The Underwater Environment", "The Mountain 
> >Environment", and "The Desert Environment." These booklets
> >were written for CT but should easily convert to MT/TNE/T4.
> 
> Second that.  There was also "Startown Liberty", which provided pretty good
> rules for using that Carousing-4 skill.

I've got (and use) Underwater & Mountan.  Cute.

Also, there was Lee's Guide to Adventure, which has 10 different scenarios to play with.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:01:08 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

>What does it take to conquer a world?
>
>Seems to me that it's better to conquer a world
>politically than militarily -- Lao Tzu knew that
>thousands of years ago (better to win a war
>without fighting).  The Milieu Zero hardcover
>book has lots of great detail about this.
>
>Doesn't this change the nature of interstellar
>warfare, then, to more economic than military?
>Doesn't the military come in under planetary
>warfare rather than interstellar warfare?
>
>How can you possibly establish a beachhead
>on a hostile world, unless they are four or five
>TLs under you?  And in that case, how can
>you expect to hold the world usefully?
>
>-Rob

Take control of the System

Take control of the planentary Orbit
	This includes beating down stuff like Deep Meson Sites

Orbital bombardment of Military installations

Take control of the planetary skies

- ------ Tactic One ---------
Demand Planetary surrender

	Orbital Bombardment of select population centers if they
	don't surrender

	Demand Planetary surrender

	Repeat last two steps if necessary

Land Troops
- ------- End Tactic One -----

- ------ Tactic Two ----------
Sub-Orbital insertion of troops at key areas

Troops sieze control of key areas

Demand Planetary surrender
- ------ End Tactic Two ------


The key thing is that you'll need a LOT of troops to pull off either of
these, especially the second one.  If they are about the same TL, I'd guess
at least
1,000,000-10,000,000 troops.

I'm not really familiar with traveller versions of a lot of the ships that
would be required for such a venture.  In published material at least there
is a definite lack of such vessels.

				Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:23:53 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: T4 Gunsmith v1.30

I've just updated my spreadsheet for designing T4 smallarms. It should (heavy
emphasis on the should) allow the design of any CPR, Gauss, High Energy
or Laser smallarm according to the FFS2 rules. However I had particular
problems with the laser sequence and would appreciate if anyone finds any
errors in it. It's an Excel 5.0 spreadsheet and can be found at:

  http://users.netacess.co.nz/amv/trav/weapons/weapons.htm

I hope people find it useful.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:31:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

At 06:14 PM 4/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>What does it take to conquer a world?

assuming you want the biosphere intact, it takes a great deal of effort.

For the purposes of this arguement, let's say that orbital control has
laready been established, the fleet needs to move on within a fixed, fairly
short period, and the locals control resources you want intact.  They
refuse to surrender.

The key is to identify nexii that you need to control the world.
Communications and transportation hubs are the key.  If your troops control
the movement of food and information, the vast majority of the population
is likely to accept the new order.

The actual invasion is going to be bloody.  This is why Marines have
nigh-invulvernable battledress.  Their job is to carve out a safe landing
zone for the heavy army units following them.  
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:22:58 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Skill Specialization

	Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 01:12:42 -0500
	From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
	Subject: Broad vs Narrow Skills (was Skill Specialization)

	On 04/09/99 at 01:41 AM,  "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
said:

	>> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>

	>> Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

	>Sure, all of us have I would think, as have Loren Wiseman and Marc
	>Miller.  Compare the skills in Book 1: Characters and Combat with
	>those of Book 4: Mercenary and Book 5: High Guard.  There is a much
	>higher level of specialization reflected in the later books.  

	I took Michael's question a different way, but your take is just as
	interesting.  ;->

	>I tend not to specialize skills any more than Megatraveller does
for
	>PCs, unless they want to be in a specific campaign setting where it
	>would make sense and enhance the game.  For example, in a medical
	>campaign, the characters might all have med-3 or med-4, but then
they
	>would have specializations in trauma, infectious diseases, etc.  If
	>they're faced with a problem outside their specialty, they can
	>probably figure it out, but it might take longer than the
specialist,
	>use resources less efficiently, etc.  

	The MT or TNE scope of skills seems about right to me, with a few
	exceptions.  In all versions of Traveller, the skills associated
	with Doctors, Engineers and Stewards have been too broad, IMO.

	Breaking Medical, Engineering and Steward into four or five skills
	adds a chance for a little specialization without going to the
	extreme of a skill for *every* activity.

	I think it might make sense to have a broad skill that serves as a
	primary with specializations clustered under it.  For quick task
	resolution and in a lot of general play you'd just use the general
	or primary skill, but you'd also have the specializations for the
	situations where you might want to use them. 

	Take the Medical skill, for example.  

	  Medical
	    Diagnosis
	    Physician
	    Medical Electronics
	    Trauma Care
	    Surgery    

	Now, I know Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Psychology and probably
	several other skills are important for Medic/Doctor type characters,
	but just for now let's work with this group.

	Somehow, and I'm not entirely clear in my head how to work this <g>,
	you would get a Medical skill which would be used for general
	medicine tasks, but also gives *some* sort of specialization.
	Maybe, it would work to assign two or three points to the
	specializations of the players choice, with the proviso that no
	specialization can exceed the general skill?

	Example:

	To become a licensed MD Joe has to get a have at least a 1 in all
	the specializations.  He wants to specialize in Surgery, so he'll
	concentrate there as best he can.

	Joe completes Medical School receiving, among other things a
	Medical-3, and 6 or 9 specializations. He distributes them.

	  with 2 to 1                   with 3 to 1

	  Medical-3                     Medical-3               
	    Diagnosis-1                   Diagnosis-2           
	    Physician-1                   Physician-1           
	    Medical Electronics-1         Medical Electronics-1 
	    Trauma Care-1                 Trauma Care-2         
	    Surgery-2                     Surgery-3             

	During his first term after Medical School, Joe works mainly in an
	Emergency Room.  He gets another Medical skill and puts
	specializations into Trauma Care, but he finds a way to continue
	working on his Surgical specialty as well.

	  Medical-4                     Medical-4               
	    Diagnosis-1                   Diagnosis-2           
	    Physician-1                   Physician-1           
	    Medical Electronics-1         Medical Electronics-1 
	    Trauma Care-2                 Trauma Care-4         
	    Surgery-3                     Surgery-4             

	During Joe's next term he continues his work in the hospital,
	receiving another Medical.  He was working as a general surgeon, so
	he can add to his Surgical skill, but he also works on his Diagnosis
	and Physician skills.
	 
	  Medical-5                     Medical-5               
	    Diagnosis-2                   Diagnosis-3           
	    Physician-1                   Physician-2           
	    Medical Electronics-1         Medical Electronics-1 
	    Trauma Care-2                 Trauma Care-4         
	    Surgery-4                     Surgery-5             

	Geeze, this might work!  That 3 to 1 looks pretty good.  What do you
	think?
	
	I like it!, it helps those that wish to specialize do so and those
who wish to generalize to so as well. The beauty is you could apply it to
most skills and, in terms of graduate education, mimics what happens in real
life; i.e. specialization in particular aspects of a field of knowledge: 

	For example, a P.h.D in history would almost certainly be focussed
on a specific period & issue and specialization would help bare this out.

	E.g. A doctorate focussing on Imperial Colonization, say two levels
of history, could be broke into:

- -	Imperiumx2
- -	Colonizationx3
- -	Long Nightx1

A problem I can see is where do you draw the line of compartmentalization.
For example with History, into one hundred year blocks? five hundred year
blocks? thousand year blocks? specific worlds or interstellar governments?

Maybe the more specialized an aspect of a skill is, the task difficulty gets
lowered correspondingly. E.g. Streetwise focussed on a specific world is
reduced by two difficulty levels as the specialization can only be used on
that world.

And should the base skill still play a part? For example, a Historian
analyzing a new period of History (i.e. does not have a specialization) with
a base skill of 3 would be able to draw more accurate conclusions that
someone with a base skill of 1.

How would any of this affect DMs?

- - Michael

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:43:14 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

>Great story about Elizabeth in WWII.  She had just finished her course in
>engine maintenance, and announced that she was going to do a tune up of one
>of the Royal Family's cars.  Spent several hours going over the engine,
>then gathered everyone to show off her work.  Car wouldn't start.  Seems
>her dad had swiped the distributor cap.

What does the Grand Princess of the Imperium Ciencia Iphegenia do with her
time? It says in G:T that she is a staunch supporter of the IISS. At 30 (in
2118) she is still unmarried. In 1121 she is to visit the Spinward Marches.
Norris Aella Aledon, the Archduke of Deneb is also unmarried. He was leading
the Imperial forces against the Zhodani in 1108 in the Fifth Frontier War,
when she was twenty. He must have been to core at some time during that
year, to procure the Imperial Warrant that allowed him to turn the war
around. Could the Grand Princess have been responsible for that? After all
Norris was just another sector duke, with no military command experience.
why would the Emperor trust him with such an important task?

I see a very convoluted campaign coming on.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:44:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Favorite scenarios 

> Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars- another Keith brothers' opus, basically a
> straight
>     up of Lawrence of Arabia, but very well-done.

I've got it.  It's nice.  *ESPECIALLY* when you find out how the invaders got 
teched up and *why*.

> Though these are my top three, I can't resist one more:  Adventure 8, Prison
> Planet.  That has to one of the more unique adventures out there, and it
> does a good job.  Plus, let's face, every Traveller group that I've ever
> played in commited more than a fair amount of felonies...

True.  But I tend to use PP as a resource rather than an adventure.  Hmmmmmmmmmmm...  I wonder if my players would like a nice one-way ticket to Coventry...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:48:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather) 

> 
> 
> Someone wrote:
> 
> > > At 08:18 PM 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
> > > >adventures, and why.
> 
> Wow, these all sound great.  And considering the fact that I never played or
> reffed *any* of the published adventures, and own none of them, if any of
> you feel like starting a Classic Trav Adventures PBEM, I'm virgin fodder for
> these.

Heheh...

'I'll be gentle!'

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:51:06 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

Date sent:      	Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:32:16
From:           	"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>At 12:19 PM 4/11/99 +1000, you wrote:

>>is interesting to note that in our r/w, Queen Elizabeth was a uniformed,
>>military ambulance driver during WWII, that her sons were all members of the
>>Royal Navy (and was it Prince Eddie that served in the Falklands as a
>>helo-pilot in the war zone?)

>HRH Prince Andrew was the chopper pilot in the Falklands conflict.
>Evidently, he made quite an impression on some folks who had only seen him
>as a playboy.

Both Charles and Andrew were commissioned RN Helo pilots, Edward
enlisted in the Royal Marines but flunked out in basic training. The "tradition"
for British Royals to become career military is a fairly recent thing, dating
from after the 1st WW. Prior to that royals do basic training (in one of the
more fashionable Army regiments), maybe serve a year or two and then
move on to a career as a Noble.

ObTrav: I keep on expecting Prince Lucan's acceptance to the Imperial Marine
Academy to appear in a TNS.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:53:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, jcarlino wrote:

> What does the Grand Princess of the Imperium Ciencia Iphegenia do with her
> time? It says in G:T that she is a staunch supporter of the IISS. At 30 (in
> 2118) she is still unmarried. In 1121 she is to visit the Spinward Marches.
> Norris Aella Aledon, the Archduke of Deneb is also unmarried. He was leading
> the Imperial forces against the Zhodani in 1108 in the Fifth Frontier War,
> when she was twenty. He must have been to core at some time during that
> year, to procure the Imperial Warrant that allowed him to turn the war
> around. Could the Grand Princess have been responsible for that? After all

According to pre-GURPS Traveller publications, no.  He didn't leave the
Spinward Marches at all (if he had, he would have had to have left when
the war broke out and could only have got back by the time it ended, and
so missed the whole thing).  Rather, the Imperial Warrant was retrieved
from a derelict 'battlecruiser' in the Shionthy belt (Regina s.s.).

> Norris was just another sector duke, with no military command experience.
> why would the Emperor trust him with such an important task?

Both Templars.

Or, more likely if you ask _me_, they're -- you know -- _special friends_.

<ducking slightly>

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:05:24 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

        A couple of months ago, Ian Whitechurch (Hi, Ian!) and I hammered
out a reasonable cargo rate structure base on "RealWorld(tm)" cargo rates,
etc.  The results worked out, after a few hull design tests, to be the
following formula:
                        Freight Cost Per Ton = (Cr500 + Cr500/jp to carry)

        So, a cargo going a distance of 2 parsecs was worth Cr500 + 2*Cr500
= Cr1500.  This in turn resulted in a well-tuned design making an average
Rate of Return Per Anum of 3%-5%....  That is of course, for a *perfect*
year;  full holds and no battle damage.

        Well, I discovered today, while checking the numbers on most of my
TNEC frieghters, that *none* of them can make any money.  They all run
RORPAs of -1% to -3% on a perfect year.  This is Bad.  The problem, I
discovered, was the TL...  The powerplant tonnages and costs at TL9 are much
higher than at TL15.  So the formula was broken for anything but TL15.
Since my TNEC game is average TL *9* with maximum technical UN at *11*,
pro-rating ship costs based on Striker didn't work...  those tables are
written, as far as I can see, relative to a TL 15 game milieu.

        So, I went back and designed by HG the venerable Type-A, as per "The
Traveller Book" under High Guard.  At TL 9, it lost money, at TL15 (to my
surprise) it almost lost money.  As in, "one empty cargo run the whole year
and you are pooched" almost.

        Based on the idea that the Type-A seems to be the most populous
canon passenger-frieghter, it would only exist if the design actually made
money.  This is a presumtion on my part, I know....

        So, I worked out what multiplier was required to make a Type-A fit
the 3%-5% RORPA recipe for success.  I then redid the Type-A as a TL9
(which, BTW, almost matches the stats in the CT Book perfectly) and figured
it out again.  Came up with a bigger mutliplier, and then did a linear
extrapolation of the TL's in between.

        So, the revised formula looks like:

        Freight Cost Per Ton = (Cr500 x TLM + Cr500 x parsec dist to carry)
        
        ...where the Tech Level Multiplier (TLM) comes from:
                TL	Multiplier
                9	4.0
                10	3.8
                11	3.7
                12	3.5
                13	3.3
                14	3.2
                15	3.0

        The TLM is there to reflect a market economy of lower TLs.  This is
to reflect the higher transportation charges, construction costs and the
like that seem to make it much more expensive to use interstellar transport
at lower tech levels.  
        Note that the reference marker is for the milieu's *maximum*
technical level...  so for the 3I, you use a *3* and for my TNEC milieu you
use a 3.7.  The result is that ships built with the newest tech make more
money than older tech ships at any TL.  My test case, the Beowulf, hits
between 4% and 5% RORPA at TLs 9-15 on a perfect year.
        When I apply this to my TNEC ships, the older TL9 designs slip
towards 2%-3% RORPAs and the shiney new TL 11 Mirage/HAVAST-class 650dton
Mechant Cruiser I am working on rings in with a RORPA of 5.3%.

        Now, for MTU, I will actually reduce the TLMs by 1pt as I also have
a "Area Risk Multiplier" that I will add to it to account for the region the
ship is operating in....  ARMs in TNEC look like:

        Area                    Area Risk Mult          Notes
        Core Worlds             1x                      UN Navy everywhere,
well defended starports, highest-pop worlds and non-existant piracy
        Established             1.5x                    Similar to Core,
with lighter Naval presence, and rare incidences of piracy/ privateering
        Frontier                        2x                      UN Navy is
rare, usually corporate defense forces, regular incidences of piracy/
privateering
        Beyond Frontier         2.5x                    UN Navy is never
seen here, Corporate Navies are rare and most traffic is pirates and
privateers travelling to unregistered colony worlds of Exiles which serve as
bases...

        If either the destination world or origin world is under blockade,
quarentine or similar restrictions, an additonal x0.5 is added to the ARM.

        So, while you will make a killing hauling cargo on the Frontier, you
are also reasonably likely to get into a major firefight once or twice a
year that could cost you some major repair bills.

        As always, your comments, questions and critiques are welcome.

        --Michel
        (Journeyman Heretic)
 
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:04:59 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Conquest

I'd like to add one point to this discussion pertaining to the Traveller 
universe.  What you are discussing appears to be more adequately described as 
"How do you conquer a high-pop, hi-tech world"?  If we look at the Spinward 
Marches as a typical environment, it would appear that the typical world is 
mid-pop and mid-tech.  Against such worlds, relatively small high tech forces 
will have a relatively easy time destroying the means, if not the will, to 
resist. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:30:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

> ObTrav: I keep on expecting Prince Lucan's acceptance to the Imperial Marine
> Academy to appear in a TNS.

Wouldn't that have been past tense?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #435
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 436



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tanks (Long)
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
Heat Pumps (was re: Fuel Cell Breakthrou...)
Re: drop tanks (long)
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
Re: Interstellar Trade, from the Milieu Zero Book
Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- BrokenFreight  Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Space Above and Beyond
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Favorite scenarios 
Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)
Re: World Conquest
re: World Conquest
Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?
Re: Far Trader Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:50:53 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks (Long)

Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:52:52 -0500, "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
>Economics:  Store A sells a gallon of milk for $2.00
>                       Store B sells a gallon of milk for $4.00
>
>We might think that Store A will drive Store B out of business in short
>order, however this is not the case.  Store A (also known as a Wal-Mart
>SuperCenter) thrives and so does Store B (aka 7-11 Convenience Store), since
>economics is only part of the equation.  Other factors play a role in the
>success or failure of a store (or economic concern).

Those other factors _are_ economics.  If Store B can't offer
something (staying open late, having more stores near to the
consumer, etc.) they won't be able to sell mile for $4.

>Market Forces:
>
>The advantage of having a superior Technology does not always translate to
>success in the marketplace.  Real Life(tm) is full of examples in which a
>better technology was defeated due to marketing , consumer
>demand/perception, installed base, or whatever.  The Nintendo Gameboy is a
>good example. The Atari Jaguar and Sega Game Gear were both technologically
>superior products.  (The GameBoy was obsolescent when it debuted, IMO)
>However, Nintendo was able to take a large share of the market through
>advertising, name recognition, and product support (game titles).

This really only works at the retail level.  It also works a lot
better on smaller purchases.

>Infrastructure:
>
>If Drop Tanks require Jump Stations to be used, then we also have problems
>associated with infrastructure.  Aside from having them built and
>maintained, Jump Stations will become a point where bottle necks could
>occur.  This was probably the case with Starports as well, but they are now
>part of the existing infrastructure....and presumably well adjusted to
>specific traffic patterns

And eventually drop tank stations will adjust.  There really isn't,
from where I sit, much reason for drop tanks stations to be expensive
or hard to setup.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:59:15 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

- ----------
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
> Date: Sunday, 11 April, 1999 9:30 PM
> 
> 
> > ObTrav: I keep on expecting Prince Lucan's acceptance to the Imperial
Marine
> > Academy to appear in a TNS.
> 
> Wouldn't that have been past tense?
> 

Why?  TNS is still (sort of) in existence, under the auspices of SJGames. 
Lucan already figures there, announcing that he'll follow the example of
his brother Varian and make a Grand Tour of the Imperium.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html and 
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/oldnews.html

Of course, I don't think there is a Marine Academy.  Officially (per High
Guard), if Marine officers attend any sort of service academy, it's the
Naval Academy.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:34:29 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Heat Pumps (was re: Fuel Cell Breakthrou...)

Juliean Galak wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
AFAIK, heat pumps are only effective when they operate between environments
that are only a few degrees apart.  So in a warm climate, they are useful
for raising the temperature a little, but they aren't too good in really
cold weather.  

That's why they are popular for household heating in Florida, but not up
here (NY).
>>>>>>>>>>>
They are used as part of a ground-heat system up here in NY state, but
so far (in my power company's service area) they are experimental.
Ground-heat is where you have piping running pretty deep underground,
and you use the heat differentials between the outdoors, the inside of the
house, and the constant 50-some odd degree F underground to make
your house just the right temperature. I believe you can even use the
temperature gradient to get water hot enough for showers and household
use.

Some problems I've heard include very slow temperature changes,
high installation expenses, and the way you have to turn the whole
system on to get a dishpan full of hot water.
(Recollection while I worked computer support for NY State Electric
and Gas of a little old lady being very annoyed at us for talking her into
trying out this system in her house. Our marketing department gave her
a modern oil heat system and ate the cost, probably writing it off as a 
research expense, rather than take a "preying on senior citizens" PR hit.)

ObTrav: ah, the joys of using prototype equipment...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:36:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: drop tanks (long)

Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:33:55 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>Subject: Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage
>...
>>them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
>>you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
>>used and take them with you.
>
>  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
>supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.

The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this
should be true.  If you can blow them away, you can pull them
inside.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:46:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

> > > ObTrav: I keep on expecting Prince Lucan's acceptance to the Imperial
> Marine
> > > Academy to appear in a TNS.
> > 
> > Wouldn't that have been past tense?
> > 
> 
> Why?  TNS is still (sort of) in existence, under the auspices of SJGames. 
> Lucan already figures there, announcing that he'll follow the example of
> his brother Varian and make a Grand Tour of the Imperium.
> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/news.html and 
> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/oldnews.html

But how old was Lucan at the time of the assassination?  He was *way* over 18, 
wasn't he???
 
> Of course, I don't think there is a Marine Academy.  Officially (per High
> Guard), if Marine officers attend any sort of service academy, it's the
> Naval Academy.  

I've generated Marine officers that went to the Naval Academy.  They worked 
out pretty good...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:51:40 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade, from the Milieu Zero Book

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> Here's what they say: a world is ready to become a
> "stable part of the inner community" (read: fully
> priveleged member world of the Imperium) when its
> trade "approaches or exceeds millions of tons per year".
> 1,000,000 tons per year is, roughly, 20,000 tons per
> week.

[snip]

> Anyone got any opinions here?

Ignore it and use Far Trader.  :-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:57:28 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- BrokenFreight  Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         A couple of months ago, Ian Whitechurch (Hi, Ian!) and I hammered
> out a reasonable cargo rate structure base on "RealWorld(tm)" cargo rates,
> etc.  The results worked out, after a few hull design tests, to be the
> following formula:
>                         Freight Cost Per Ton = (Cr500 + Cr500/jp to carry)
>
>         So, a cargo going a distance of 2 parsecs was worth Cr500 + 2*Cr500
> = Cr1500.  This in turn resulted in a well-tuned design making an average
> Rate of Return Per Anum of 3%-5%....  That is of course, for a *perfect*
> year;  full holds and no battle damage.

Your formula is unclear.  Is the second term 500 _divided by_ jump parsecs,
or is it 500 _per_ jump parsec?

I'm curious because if its the former, its reasonably close to the Far Trader
figures.


Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:01:05 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> As others mentioned, there are a lot of factors in
> building a starship.  My handwaves were really
> to figure out how long it took to build a starship.
> I don't think any material since CT tried to guess.
>
> Anyone have ideas on this?

Well, depends on the ship obviously.  And the motivation.
The US was churning out Libery ships during WWII
at an absolutely unbelievable pace.  I think the record was
something like 36 hours.

With pre-fab standard parts and robotic hull construction,
it shouldn't take long at all  - at TL 15 a day for the raw ship
I'd say.  But calibrating the jump drive?  Thats a tough question.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:17:52 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Space Above and Beyond

Does anyone know of, well, anyone, that tried to Travellerize SAAB (the
show, not the car make)?

I loved the concept (indeed, loved the show) and if someone has put in the
hard yards to make it so would they in turn be willing to post/share/reveal?

Damn shame they killed it (the show, not the car). Apparently they even
burned all the sets! (criminal waste, tsk tsk).

- - Michael

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:40:19 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

- ----------
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
> Date: Sunday, 11 April, 1999 10:46 PM
> 
> > > > ObTrav: I keep on expecting Prince Lucan's acceptance to the 
> 
> But how old was Lucan at the time of the assassination?  He was *way*
over 18, 
> wasn't he???

I'm not sure.  I found two separate birth years for Lucan in Joseph Heck's
library data file (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/ )

If we take the 1094 date from Dresden's entry (his father), Lucan's only 22
in 1116 (the abortive assassination in the GT timeline).  Entry into the
service or an academy certainly could be delayed by a few years for a major
noble such as he.

Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too old.

Anyone know which is right?
 
> I've generated Marine officers that went to the Naval Academy.  They
worked 
> out pretty good...

No reason why they shouldn't, except IMTU, where Marine officers must 
complete the same basic training as everyone else and serve a year in the
enlisted ranks before going to the Officer Course.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:12:56 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

- ----------
> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> To: 'Traveller Mail Group' <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions
> Date: Sunday, 11 April, 1999 8:53 PM
> 
> On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, jcarlino wrote:
> 
> > He must have been to core at some time during that
> > year, to procure the Imperial Warrant that allowed him to turn the war
> > around. Could the Grand Princess have been responsible for that? After
all
> 
> According to pre-GURPS Traveller publications, no.  He didn't leave the
> Spinward Marches at all (if he had, he would have had to have left when
> the war broke out and could only have got back by the time it ended, and
> so missed the whole thing).  Rather, the Imperial Warrant was retrieved
> from a derelict 'battlecruiser' in the Shionthy belt (Regina s.s.).

GURPS is slightly more coy about this, but I think it's basically the same.
 Behind the Claw says his retrieval of the warrant "is a tale in its own
right." 
 
> > Norris was just another sector duke, with no military command
experience.
> > why would the Emperor trust him with such an important task?
>
> Both Templars.

:-)  

Again per BTC, Norris is a very talented intell analyst and a very well
regarded officer (if not command material).  BTC has him operating in the
field against terrorists in the Old Expanses and Diaspora, before being
transferred to the Tactics college (whatever that is) back in the Marches. 


Also, isn't there some ambiguity about who the warrant was really intended
for.  IIRC, it's written in the Dumas fashion ("The bearer has done what
the bearer has done..." so to speak.)  
 
> Or, more likely if you ask _me_, they're -- you know -- _special
friends_.
> 
> <ducking slightly>

Well, Norris isn't much for female company (his daughter is a clone, after
all)
Draw whatever conclusions you wish...

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:37:29 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite scenarios 

In a message dated 4/11/99 5:50:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@glasscity.net writes:

<< True.  But I tend to use PP as a resource rather than an adventure.  
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...  I wonder if my players would like a nice one-way ticket to 
Coventry... >>

If you want to be a REAL bastard; put anyone who escapes from prison planet 
on the "Gash" : LBB adventure #1 Kinunir... (I loved this one, but also more 
as resources than as an adventure...

my favorites:

1) The Trav adventure....lots of fun stuff...loved the musuem, and the trade 
war data...

2) Beltstrike....lots of good "rockjack" data

3) LBB dbl #5 Chamax horde/plague...."BUGS MR. RICO! ZILLIONS OF EM!..."

Actually; I love MOST of the published stuff....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:52:19 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?

In a message dated 4/11/99 8:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:

<<  I think the record was
 something like 36 hours. >>

more like 36 days, but this is still an incredilble rate. We literally built 
more shipping tonnage for both the US and British merchant marine, than the 
Germans could sink at the hight of the battle of the Atlantic...Before the 
war we built capital ships in 2-3 years. By 1944 (when naval capital ship 
building rates were SLOWED DOWN as a result of lack of need...they figured if 
they're not finished by 1945, the war will be over before they are ready and 
steel was in short supply; better to go to quicker built items like 
freighters, escorts, and landing ships...); this rate was down to about a 
year to a year and a half. The only reason it wasn't faster, was that we 
hadn't figured out how to adapt liberty ship modular construction methods to 
battleships and carriers. We have now have and have shaved off more than 2 
years from the building times of a Nimitz class carrier. The lead ship took 
about 5 years (I think), and now they are down to less than three...It saves 
both Newport News and the Defense dept a lot of money....

Ob Trav: does this tie into economies of scale in the 3I? (ie: the more the 
3I builds, and gets better at; the cheaper and quicker they get...)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:57:53 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

At 08:18 PM 4/10/1999 -0400, Dave Golden wrote:
>Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
>adventures, and why. 
>
>*Official: CT, MT, TNE, T4 or GT; published by GDW, DGP, IG, or SJG,
>either as a standalone product or as an article in the appropriate
>"official" magazine.**
>
>**Why restrict it to official: there's a better chance that others
>have played the same adventure ...
>
My favorites are...
1.  The Skyraiders Trilogy
2.  Lords of Thunder (MTJ4)
3.  The Scotian Huntress Adventures (the 4 Space Gamer folio's, Trading
Team folio and Escape (although it would be nice to have seen the
followup), DA6 Night of Conquest)

     Anything by the Keith Brothers was great, so what's the use of
pointing out 3 adventures out of so many.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:04:50 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

In a message dated 4/11/99 8:44:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< If we take the 1094 date from Dresden's entry (his father), Lucan's only 22
 in 1116 (the abortive assassination in the GT timeline).  Entry into the
 service or an academy certainly could be delayed by a few years for a major
 noble such as he.
 
 Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too old.
 
 Anyone know which is right? >>


the Megatraveller Rebellion Sourcebook uses the 1094 date, but I remember 
seeing the other one as well somewere...When I find it, I'll post it...

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:07:19 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

In a message dated 4/11/99 9:17:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Or, more likely if you ask _me_, they're -- you know -- _special
 friends_.
 > 
 > <ducking slightly>
 
 Well, Norris isn't much for female company (his daughter is a clone, after
 all)
 Draw whatever conclusions you wish...
 
 Tom Schoene >>

it's quite possible that GT is grooming a Norris-Iphegenia match down the 
pike. Since Arbellatra's time, the Alkhalakoi's and the Aledon's have had at 
least a tenous dynastic bond...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:09:09 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather)

In a message dated 4/11/99 10:01:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
nimrod@santech.com writes:

<<  Anything by the Keith Brothers was great, so what's the use of
 pointing out 3 adventures out of so many.
  >>

DITTO!...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:20:24 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

At 05:31 PM 4/11/1999 +0000, you wrote:
>At 06:14 PM 4/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>What does it take to conquer a world?
>
>assuming you want the biosphere intact, it takes a great deal of effort.
>
>For the purposes of this arguement, let's say that orbital control has
>laready been established, the fleet needs to move on within a fixed, fairly
>short period, and the locals control resources you want intact.  They
>refuse to surrender.
>
>The key is to identify nexii that you need to control the world.
>Communications and transportation hubs are the key.  If your troops control
>the movement of food and information, the vast majority of the population
>is likely to accept the new order.
>
>The actual invasion is going to be bloody.  This is why Marines have
>nigh-invulvernable battledress.  Their job is to carve out a safe landing
>zone for the heavy army units following them.  
>-- 
Yes it takes a great deal of effort and resources.  During the Solomani Rim
War, after the Solomani Fleet was defeated at some battle or another, the
Imperial High Command decided to invade Terra to finally put an end to
Solomani supremacy hype.  This involved breaking off pursuit of the
defeated fleet and bringing in most of their other fleet elements for the
invasion.

According t the Order of Battle chart from the Invasion: Terra game, the
Imperial fleet went in with:

14 BatRons
7 CruRons
3 Scout squadrons
4 Transport Squadrons
6 Colonial BatRons
8 Colonial CruRons

1 20-factor Marine division
5 5-factor Marine regiments
2 5C-factor armies
16 1C-factor corps
8 20-factor divisions
6 10-factor brigades
10 1C-factor colonial corps
4 20-factor colonial divisions
2 10-factor colonial brigades
2 20-factor mercenary divisions
3 10-factor mercenary brigades
1 5-factor mercenary regiment

After the invasion was completed, they didn't have the resources to
continue their invasion of the Solomani Sphere.



Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:35:28 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: World Conquest

Jimmy Simpson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes it takes a great deal of effort and resources.  During the Solomani Rim
War, after the Solomani Fleet was defeated at some battle or another, the
Imperial High Command decided to invade Terra to finally put an end to
Solomani supremacy hype.  This involved breaking off pursuit of the
defeated fleet and bringing in most of their other fleet elements for the
invasion.

According t the Order of Battle chart from the Invasion: Terra game, the
Imperial fleet went in with:

<snip OOB>

After the invasion was completed, they didn't have the resources to
continue their invasion of the Solomani Sphere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They brought in the OOB listed above, and the game _Invasion Earth_
also gives them a very generous replacement pool for armies.  In
manpower terms, the invasion of Earth not only ate up the grand fleet, 
it also depleted manpower reserves throughout the Sector, if not
throughout the rimward Imperium.

A high-tech, high-pop world that knows you are coming should be the
cold-sweat nightmare of every jump trooper living. If your high command
has decided to capture it militarily without nuking it to glass, you will
have a meatgrinder on your hands that may *never* stop eating your
troops.

Ally with it. Subvert it. Blockade it. Try *anything* else before you
invade it.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:53:00 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/11/99 8:05:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> stevedaniels@portcaddo.com writes:
> 
> <<  I think the record was
>  something like 36 hours. >>
> 
> more like 36 days, but this is still an incredilble rate. 

According to the S.S. JOHN W. BROWN Web site:

The Kaiser shipyard in Oakland, California, built the
     S/S ROBERT E PEARY, from keel laying to launching, in
     4 days 15 hours and 30 minutes. The PEARY was then
     outfitted, painted, taken on sea trials, the crew was trained
     and the vessel fully loaded with 10,000 tons of cargo. The
     PEARY sailed 7 days after the keel was laid. 

This site further mentions that:

Once the production lines got under way, the time taken
     to build a Liberty at Fairfield dropped to as little as 28
     days. On the average, it took 592,000 man-hours to build
     a Liberty Ship.

A description of the Liberty ships, from the S.S. JEREMIAH O'BRIEN Web
site:

S.S. Jeremiah O'Brien Basic Information


Launched: June 19, 1943 
Built By: New England Shipbuilding Corp, South Portland, Maine 
Class/Type: EC2-S-C1 / Liberty Ship 
Length: 441 ft 6 in 
Beam: 57 ft 
Draft: 27 ft 9 in 
Gross Tonnage: 7176 
Displacement: 14245 
Net: 4380 
Engine: three cylinder, reciprocating triple expansion steam 
Horsepower: (at 76 rpm) 2,500 
Cylinders: 24-1/2", 37", 70" 
Stroke: 48" 

Web sites cited above:

http://www.uh.edu/~pthompso/liberty/liberty1.html  (S.S. JOHN W. BROWN)

http://www.crl.com/~wefald/obrien.html  (S.S. JEREMIAH O'BRIEN)

ObTrav:  This is left as an exercise for the student.  ;-)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:18:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Economics

 John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:
>Dom>Hmm. May I suggest that you consider using a bank for your starship
>>purchase, not a loan shark? ;-)
>
>What? You mean 1000% interest is not standard?
>I must have a word with my bank manager :(
>
>I guess all these minor errors are due to me processing my TML mail late at
>night, after my wife has gone to sleep.

I know that one..... I do it myself ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #436
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Monday, April 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 437



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
RE: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans
re: Black Globes
Re: Skill Specialization
Re: Royals and the Military
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Royals and the Military
Re: Imperial Fashions
Liberty Ships
Re: Favorite scenarios
Thanks for the welcome
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: World Conquest
Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)
Big Ask...
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Government Type "M"
2 questions
20 ton Bridge (was re: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...)
Re: Drop Tanks (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 22:05:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>Blade Runner seems to be more in tune with Rossum's Universal Robots rather
>than Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. The movie diverges a bit from
>Dick's work, which dealt mostly with identity.

I'm not sure really; the Director's cut (shorter, no voice over plus the
dream sequence) seems to hint more at the original Dick novel. The crisis
of identity for Deckard (a replicant, although unknown to himself until the
last seconds of the re-release) is quite subtley.

cf 'How can it not know what it is?' Deckard

cf 'Have you ever taken the [voigt-kampf] test yourself?' Rachel

cf 'Have you ever retired a human by mistake?' Rachel

What I found was re-watching the film after finding out what Deckard was
from the link between the dream sequence and the origami unicorn made me
realise just how loaded the conversation really is.

Sad the ending was changed for fear that a US public acustomed to 'Star
Wars' wouldn't like it because it is too dark and poorly explained in
comparison.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:25:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Canival ship luxury liner deckplans

Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com> wrote:

>The problem I see is you don't have enough cargo space.  Unless they changed
>it in GT, each High Passenger gets 1ton cargo. Middle passengers get .5ton
>and low berth get .25ton if I remember correctly. Plus you've got to have
>some space for crew's cargo. Other than that, it looks like a good design.

Isn't that ton mass not ton volume (is dt ie 13.5m3 ie 1.5m x 1.5m x 3m
approx)?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:30:51 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Black Globes

Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In my copy of TNE, the Screens skill lists four cas-
>cades, Sandcasters, Nuclear Dampers, Meson Screens, and
>Black Globes. The first three get explained in the
>space combat section, but I couldn't find so much as a
>hint as to what Black Globes block. I don't have FF&S1,
>so could someone please tell me?

Everything - they stop all energy (everything!) crossing the barrier and
shunt it to capacitors. Ships in it can't manuever or discharge this energy
so can be killed by overloading the capacitors. To resolve these problems,
ships normally flicker the black globe.

Black globes were originally Ancient artifacts, but canon implies a limited
number of prototypes are now available at TL15.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:07:27 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

Dear Folks -

Michael asked:
>Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

From the official rules viewpoint:

CT, no.

MT used Skill Clusters to group skill together. It also had "serves as"
skills, which are a minor form of specialisation rules. One skill could be
used in place of another but at -1. Finally, it had a Default level of
skill (level 0), where you didn't get any bonuses from having the skill,
BUT your difficultly level didn't go up due to not having the skill,
either.

TNE used clusters _with_ specialisation, so that you used your
specialisation at full effect, and the other skills in the cluster at half
effect.

From memory, T4 went back to the MT version.

G:T? Ask a GURPS player.  ;-)  However, probably not, since one of my
gripes with GURPS (or Rolemaster etc) is that this rule DOESN'T exist,
meaning you have too many skills for the PC's to choose from - too many
specialities to cover. Glenn has already illustrated this point very well,
both in terms of balance (atomic vs broad skills) and campaign-specific
effects ("I'll fix up the K'kree with my Medic-3 [Xenobiology] skill while
you track down the disease with your Medic-3 [Infectious Diseases] skill").
Eris would appear to agree, giving us a version similar in concept to TNE
but with CT/MT/T4 numbers. The "x3" seems to work well, BTW, although you
may need to specify more catagories.

BTW, one source for medical and engineering specialities is "The Imperial
Academy of Science and Medicine" article in JTAS #21(correct number?).

If you are using GURPS and *want* to broaden the PC's skill base, write
your own rule. Consider what skills should be lumped together - MT is a
good base for this decision - and say that the PC can use such-and-such a
skill in place of the required skill, just at a lesser efficacy.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:14:33 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military

Dear Folks -

Thomas asked:
>If we take the 1094 date from Dresden's entry (his father), Lucan's only
22
>in 1116
[snip]
>Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too
old.

His own bio? My Library Data entry also says 1094, and that's straight out
of the MegaTraveller Rebellion Sourcebook, according to the page reference.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:19:04 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

Dear Folks -

Thomas said:
>>> He must have been to core at some time during that year

>> According to pre-GURPS Traveller publications, no.  He didn't leave the
>> Spinward Marches at all [snip] Rather, the Imperial Warrant was
retrieved
>> from a derelict 'battlecruiser' in the Shionthy belt (Regina s.s.).

>GURPS is slightly more coy about this, but I think it's basically the
same.
>Behind the Claw says his retrieval of the warrant "is a tale in its own
>right."

There are problems with the Shionthy/Kinunir explanation. I raised this
earlier on the list, and posted the outcomes of the ensuing discussion on
my website. Go to "Hyphen's Traveller Pages" and look for (I think) the
Kinunir Question.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:47:03 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military

- ----------
> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Royals and the Military
> Date: Monday, 12 April, 1999 3:14 AM
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Thomas asked:
> >If we take the 1094 date from Dresden's entry (his father), Lucan's only
> 22
> >in 1116
> [snip]
> >Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too
> old.
> 
> His own bio? My Library Data entry also says 1094, and that's straight
out
> of the MegaTraveller Rebellion Sourcebook, according to the page
reference.

OK, then the source I used was messed up.  Since I don't own the Rebellion
Sourcebook, I have to work with what I can find online.  The source I cited
came readily to hand and purports to be based entirely on GDW library data
entries.  

On the original question, this seems to leave the possibility of Lucan's
future military career, if any, open.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:03:07 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

- ----------
> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions
> Date: Monday, 12 April, 1999 3:19 AM
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Thomas said:
> >>> He must have been to core at some time during that year
> 
> >> According to pre-GURPS Traveller publications, no.  He didn't leave
the
> >> Spinward Marches at all [snip] Rather, the Imperial Warrant was
> retrieved
> >> from a derelict 'battlecruiser' in the Shionthy belt (Regina s.s.).
> 
> >GURPS is slightly more coy about this, but I think it's basically the
> same.
> >Behind the Claw says his retrieval of the warrant "is a tale in its own
> >right."
> 
> There are problems with the Shionthy/Kinunir explanation. 
You mean, aside from the bizarre composition of Shionthy belt
(contra-terrene matter, indeed)

>I raised this
> earlier on the list, and posted the outcomes of the ensuing discussion on
> my website. Go to "Hyphen's Traveller Pages" and look for (I think) the
> Kinunir Question.

Nothing that even vaguely  resembles this topic.  Would you mind checking?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:33:21 +0100
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Liberty Ships

> <<  I think the record was
>  something like 36 hours. >>
>
> more like 36 days, but this is still an incredilble rate. We
> literally built
> more shipping tonnage for both the US and British merchant
> marine, than the
> Germans could sink at the hight of the battle of the
> Atlantic...

Nope the record was either 24 or 36 _hours_. I saw part of a documentary on
the subject recently. The liberty ships were also the first major groups of
ships built where the joins were welded rather than riveted together which
related to some acidents with the early liberty ships (If I remember
correctly some of them literally broke in half, due to the temperature.)

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:33:35 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Favorite scenarios

>For those of you unfamiliar with their work, their game company
>was called "GameLords, Ltd." If you ever have a chance to pick
>up any of their environmental booklets for Traveller, do so.
>They're called "The Underwater Environment", "The Mountain
>Environment", and "The Desert Environment." These booklets
>were written for CT but should easily convert to MT/TNE/T4.

I second that. I only recently got copies, but the standard of these works is
comparable to modern RPG supplements in content.  I was lucky and recently
purchased almost the entire GameLord's output in one go


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:27:44 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Thanks for the welcome

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 11 April 1999 5:35
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (Was:Re: Granfather)



>Again, welcome aboard, and *please* share your ideas.
>
>Eris,
>    the Heretic
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Thanks for the welcome Eris.  I was able to get the gist of "IMTU" and "OTU"
but if you hadn't told me, I would probably not have known and be left
wondering (you know how it is...).

I understand fully what you are saying about "canon" also, and I too loved
the read of the OTU published hardware (in my time, it was all CT and a
touch of MT... with, for me, CT being optimal for it's amazing ease of play
with a variety of players that couldn't handle the added "difficulties" of
MT if you can believe it!).  To this day, I still extol the absolute
completeness of the Traveller universe to my Robotech and AD&D playing
friends -- nothing in my mind comes close to the detail and "realism" of the
Traveller background (that was an unpaid announcement on behalf of Traveller
in all it's incarnations by The Roc).

But don't we all have an "IMTU" regardless of how we play it?  Hmmmm... hang
on... Sorry, I just recalled... I can get passionate about something's
people say about game rules and personal amendments (house rules)... Let's
just strike that comment shall we?

Thanks again, maybe I'll borrow back my stuff and run a CT campaign again
soon!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:36:36 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

In a message dated 4/11/99 2:08:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:

<< Well, naturally.  The desire of women to wear dresses is a human
 universal, after all, and so applies even to those most un-womanly women
 in the military.  :|
 
 Kenji
  >>

Hey Guy, I'm a retired infantryman who was assigned to an personnel and admin 
unit for my last tour of duty, I was the operations and training sergeant. It 
was the first unit I had been assigned to with female soldiers. There was 
nothing "unwomanly" about those soldiers....I think your talking about an 
area in which you have no reference from which to talk. I think you owe our 
ladies in uniform an apology. 

Scififan56. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:40:32 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In a message dated 4/11/99 4:01:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
washi@metronet.com writes:

<< What does it take to conquer a world?
 
 Seems to me that it's better to conquer a world
 politically than militarily -- Lao Tzu knew that
 thousands of years ago (better to win a war
 without fighting).  The Milieu Zero hardcover
 book has lots of great detail about this.
 
 Doesn't this change the nature of interstellar
 warfare, then, to more economic than military?
 Doesn't the military come in under planetary
 warfare rather than interstellar warfare?
 
 How can you possibly establish a beachhead
 on a hostile world, unless they are four or five
 TLs under you?  And in that case, how can
 you expect to hold the world usefully?
 
 -Rob
 
 
  >>

Science Fiction author Gordon Dickson of the Dorsai Series felt this same 
way, in his story "Spirit of the Dorasi" he illustrated this very point 
wonderfully. Look at the problems we have to day in the "pacification" of 
third world countries....rest my (our) case. 

Scififan56

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:52:06 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- Broken
Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
>
>        A couple of months ago, Ian Whitechurch (Hi, Ian!) and I hammered
>out a reasonable cargo rate structure base on "RealWorld(tm)" cargo rates,
>etc.  The results worked out, after a few hull design tests, to be the
>following formula:
>                        Freight Cost Per Ton = (Cr500 + Cr500/jp to carry)
>
>        So, a cargo going a distance of 2 parsecs was worth Cr500 + 2*Cr500
>= Cr1500.  This in turn resulted in a well-tuned design making an average
>Rate of Return Per Anum of 3%-5%....  That is of course, for a *perfect*
>year;  full holds and no battle damage.

I also argued for risk premiums for hazardous areas - i.e. all over the
TNEC's frontier.

>
>        Well, I discovered today, while checking the numbers on most of my
>TNEC frieghters, that *none* of them can make any money.  They all run
>RORPAs of -1% to -3% on a perfect year.  This is Bad.  The problem, I
>discovered, was the TL...  The powerplant tonnages and costs at TL9 are much
>higher than at TL15.  So the formula was broken for anything but TL15.

In my view, the problem isnt the economic system is broken - it's the
starship designs.

The key is the High Guard requirement for a 20 dton bridge. FFS2 et al
drops this - if a 200 dton Far Trader has a 4 dton bridge, then you get
another 16 dtons of cargo space, which turns into KCr 24 per trip at Cr
1500 a jump 2. I'd strongly advise you to drop the 20 dton minimum for
non-military ships - it's MilSpec sensors etc etc etc.

>Since my TNEC game is average TL *9* with maximum technical UN at *11*,
>pro-rating ship costs based on Striker didn't work...  those tables are
>written, as far as I can see, relative to a TL 15 game milieu.

Just take the exchange rate table and make a a TL11 starport A value 1 and
refigure everything else (for starships, just do 9-A and 10-A credits).

>
>        So, I went back and designed by HG the venerable Type-A, as per "The
>Traveller Book" under High Guard.  At TL 9, it lost money, at TL15 (to my
>surprise) it almost lost money.  As in, "one empty cargo run the whole year
>and you are pooched" almost.

The venerable type A just isnt an economically viable design under
anything. Sorry.

>
>        Based on the idea that the Type-A seems to be the most populous
>canon passenger-frieghter, it would only exist if the design actually made
>money.  This is a presumtion on my part, I know....

A big one, and in my opinion, a bad one.

>
>        So, I worked out what multiplier was required to make a Type-A fit
>the 3%-5% RORPA recipe for success.  I then redid the Type-A as a TL9
>(which, BTW, almost matches the stats in the CT Book perfectly) and figured
>it out again.  Came up with a bigger mutliplier, and then did a linear
>extrapolation of the TL's in between.

What profit rates does a 1000 dton trader built under HG make ? Remember,
you can put 10 hardpoints on it, so it'll be more heavily defended as well.

If you have freight prices that make a 200 dton jump-1 freighter
profitable, than a 1000 dton jump-1 freighter should make serious money.

>        The TLM is there to reflect a market economy of lower TLs.  This is
>to reflect the higher transportation charges, construction costs and the
>like that seem to make it much more expensive to use interstellar transport
>at lower tech levels. 

Well, it's a FFS2 design at TL9, but my 8000 dton Decafreighter came in at
about MCr 990 for 6500 dtons of cargo space. I'd argue it's the small hull
sizes in the TNEC that push up freight costs rather than the TL per se.
 
>        When I apply this to my TNEC ships, the older TL9 designs slip
>towards 2%-3% RORPAs and the shiney new TL 11 Mirage/HAVAST-class 650dton
>Mechant Cruiser I am working on rings in with a RORPA of 5.3%.

With or without applying the exchange rate modifiers for TL9 vs TL11 ?

>
>        Now, for MTU, I will actually reduce the TLMs by 1pt as I also have
>a "Area Risk Multiplier" that I will add to it to account for the region the
>ship is operating in....  ARMs in TNEC look like:
<good stuff snipped>

>        So, while you will make a killing hauling cargo on the Frontier, you
>are also reasonably likely to get into a major firefight once or twice a
>year that could cost you some major repair bills.

Yup. Thats the way it should be. Spend some serious money on the best
gunners you can afford.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:02:35 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)

Oh!  But I failed to add that I don't have a clue what "ObTrav" means...
probably gonna hit my forehead with the palm of my hand when I'm told!!!!

- --  The Roc

PS:  No doubt there are more :^))

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:18:53 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Big Ask...

Again, not knowing the protocol here, this may be a big ask...  But the lad
that my old Traveller stuff now lives with is in need of a few out of date
(out of publication) stuff.  I won't go on about him wanting to have a copy
of Book 8: Robots (photocopy or other), but if someone could help me with a
scanned copy of the deckplans of a Beowolf (spelling?) class type-A that
they could e-mail me, he would be appreciative (I can only ask).

Sorry to put anyone out

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:09:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> <snipped>
> "
>>>  5      14406   5.14617626886145
>>>  6      16807   6.0038723136717  <---------
>>>  7      11832   4.22668038408779
>>>
>>
>> Is it just a coincidence that the most likely jump distance is the same as
>> the maximum "controlled" jump limit?
>
> Probably. But you also have to note that while that *is* a "peak" in
> the distribution curve, it's not a very prominent one."
>
>         Also remember that the average misjump will be higher than 6.

The *median* misjump looks to be 10 or 11 parsecs (I'm not sure if I
miskeyed my calculator and don't feel like rekeying everything). That
is, there would be as many jumps *more* than 10 or 11 as there are
*less* than.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:10:13 -0400
From: "Will Richards" <RichardW@jwfc.js.mil>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

Government Type "M" is mentioned is Best of JTAS #1 page 26. 
Author unknown:
    "The government factor in the Universal planetary profile need not be a number 0-9 or a letter A-F. For example, M could be used to indicate a miliary government, perhaps a junta or coup."

where is the refrence for the Alsan goverment type M located?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:14:37 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: 2 questions

has anyone done the GT stats for the AHL?

is there a reference anywhere to which Imperial research station is 
carrying out AI research? A player IMTC wants to make an AI 
computer....A budding Dr. Chandra... :)
Mike

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:18:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: 20 ton Bridge (was re: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...)

Ian wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
In my view, the problem isnt the economic system is broken - it's the
starship designs.

The key is the High Guard requirement for a 20 dton bridge. FFS2 et al
drops this - if a 200 dton Far Trader has a 4 dton bridge, then you get
another 16 dtons of cargo space, which turns into KCr 24 per trip at Cr
1500 a jump 2. I'd strongly advise you to drop the 20 dton minimum for
non-military ships - it's MilSpec sensors etc etc etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
That 20dtn minimum comes from CT Starships, not High Guard.
I always read it as things of minimum volume. A civilian sensor suite
takes up X amount of space, the military can fit more stuff into the
same amount of space. Not to mention that bridge crew work areas
and avionics access will take up a certain amount of room no matter
how good your sensors are.

How small can you make the bridge workstations, sensors, and avionics of 
a 200dtn civilian ship in FFS2? Can you fit all that into 4dtn?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:22:12 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks (Long)

<<About Drop Tanks>>
> >Economics:  Store A sells a gallon of milk for $2.00
> >                       Store B sells a gallon of milk for $4.00
> >
> >We might think that Store A will drive Store B out of business in short
> >order, however this is not the case.  Store A (also known as a Wal-Mart
> >SuperCenter) thrives and so does Store B (aka 7-11 Convenience Store),
since
> >economics is only part of the equation.  Other factors play a role in the
> >success or failure of a store (or economic concern).
>
> Those other factors _are_ economics.  If Store B can't offer
> something (staying open late, having more stores near to the
> consumer, etc.) they won't be able to sell mile for $4.

You are right about my incorrect usage of the word 'economics.'  In my haste
to reply I got careless.  I should have used either 'price' or 'cost.'

> >The advantage of having a superior Technology does not always translate
to
> >success in the marketplace.  Real Life(tm) is full of examples in which a
> >better technology was defeated due to marketing , consumer
> >demand/perception, installed base, or whatever.

> This really only works at the retail level.  It also works a lot
> better on smaller purchases.

I disagree.  The Real World(tm) is full of businesses which are using
equipment that is either out-dated or ill-suited to its purpose.  Many
companies have failed to upgrade their computer technology, for example,
even though the economic benefits are well-documented.  Some companies
haven't even converted to true computerization, they rely on man-power to
accomplish basic task that could easily be automated.

> >Aside from having them built and
> >maintained, Jump Stations will become a point where bottle necks could
> >occur.  This was probably the case with Starports as well, but they are
now
> >part of the existing infrastructure....and presumably well adjusted to
> >specific traffic patterns

> And eventually drop tank stations will adjust.  There really isn't,
> from where I sit, much reason for drop tanks stations to be expensive
> or hard to setup.

I'm not saying that they will be expensive to construct or implement.  I'm
saying that if Drop Tanks are implemented, then inter-system traffic will
become dependent on jumpstations.  Jumpstations will then become a point at
which bottlenecks can occur.  I can picture long delays at busy systems, and
other systems having excess capacity.

Basically, I agree that Drop Tanks can become a fly in the ointment if not
handled properly.  I am trying to point out, for those of us who don't wish
to use Drop Tanks (or wish to limit their usage somehow), that there are
many ways to accomplish this.  Furthermore, we don't have to come up with
"The Big Reason" why they aren't used, we can simply use many small reasons
which, in combination, limit (or rule out) the usage of Drop Tanks.

Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #437
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 438



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Test
Re: Drop Tanks (Long)
Re: Forward compatible (was Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker)
RE: World Conquest
Re: Fav Adventures
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- BrokenFreight  Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
Profits on Software
Re: Imperial Fashions
Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
Re: Imperial Fashion
Technology Marches On...
Re: 20 ton Bridge
Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --  Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 07:53:15 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Test

My apologies - Test

Thad K. Sneed

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:48:15 -0500
From: "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks (Long)

> >Economics:  Store A sells a gallon of milk for $2.00
> >                       Store B sells a gallon of milk for $4.00
> >
> >We might think that Store A will drive Store B out of business in short
> >order, however this is not the case.  Store A (also known as a Wal-Mart
> >SuperCenter) thrives and so does Store B (aka 7-11 Convenience Store),
since
> >economics is only part of the equation.  Other factors play a role in the
> >success or failure of a store (or economic concern).
>
> Those other factors _are_ economics.  If Store B can't offer
> something (staying open late, having more stores near to the
> consumer, etc.) they won't be able to sell mile for $4.

Of course, you are right about my incorrect use of the term economics.  In
my haste to reply, I got careless. I should have used 'price' or 'cost'
instead of 'economics.'

> >The advantage of having a superior Technology does not always translate
to
> >success in the marketplace.  Real Life(tm) is full of examples in which a
> >better technology was defeated due to marketing , consumer
> >demand/perception, installed base, or whatever.
>
> This really only works at the retail level.  It also works a lot
> better on smaller purchases.

I disagree.  In fact, the Real World(tm) is full of companies doing business
with equipment that is out-dated or ill-suited to its purpose.  Companies
are still using computer equipment, for example, that is badly in need of
upgrade/replacement even though the advantages of updating are quite clear.
Many companies have not even made a 'real' transition to computer
technology, and instead rely on simple man-power to accomplish tasks.  Even
if Drop Tanks are the greatest thing since microwave popcorn, there will be
large segments of the industry that will not use them for any number of
arbitrary reasons.

>>Aside from having them built and
> >maintained, Jump Stations will become a point where bottle necks could
> >occur.  This was probably the case with Starports as well, but they are
now
> >part of the existing infrastructure....and presumably well adjusted to
> >specific traffic patterns
>
> And eventually drop tank stations will adjust.  There really isn't,
> from where I sit, much reason for drop tanks stations to be expensive
> or hard to setup.

I'm not saying that they will be expensive to build.  I am saying that if a
conversion to Drop Tanks occurs, and reliance on jump stations follows, then
inter-system traffic will become dependant on them.  Thus, if a jumpstation
is insufficient, bottlenecks will occur.  Determining the size and capacity
of stations will be important to minimize delays and to avoid building
excess capability (that would be wasted).  If modern automobile traffic
control could be used as an example, I picture long delays in busy systems
and finding some systems with jump stations with little to do but count
tanks.

Basically I agree that Drop Tanks can become a fly in the ointment if not
handled properly.  I am trying to point out though, that for those of us who
don't wan't to use them (or significantly reduce their use), there are ample
opportunities to come up with plausible explanations as to why they aren't
used.  Furthermore, we don't have to come up with one 'Big' reason, we can
rely on a number of small reasons, that when taken together spell the end of
(or only marginal usage of) Drop Tanks.


Thad K. Sneed
- ---------------------------------------------------------
"Is the glass half full, or half empty?"
"Depends on whether you're pouring or drinking."

tc(+) t4 tg tm ru ge+>++ 3i? c+ jt- au+ st++ ls- pi+ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:20:10 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Forward compatible (was Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker)

> >The new database takes advantage of some features in it.  GCM is
> >backwards compatible ... not forwards compatible (when I figure out
> >how to make a program forward compatible, you guys will never
> >hear from me again.  I'll be too busy counting my money!! ;))
> 
> Methods to make computer programs and data forward-compatible have been
> known since the 1960s. Software can be made forward-compatible through
> virtual machines and Codd's relational rules. These methods are used in
> some data formats, like PDF and XML.
> 
> Unfortunately, programmers find it easier to just modify internal data
> structures and change opcodes than to normalize data, maintain external
> references, or implement a VM. RTF and TIFF could have been
> forward-compatible, but software companies felt it more necessary to expose
> proprietary data than to maintain the standard.
> 
> What does this have to do with Traveller? Could those who write Traveller
> software consider using XML and publishing the DTD? This would make their
> files backward and forward-compatible, and usable by others.

I have heard of these things you talk about, but I also remember 
studying something called a Finite State Machine (iirc) and one of 
the rules was, "You can never write a program that will predict the 
behaviour of another program."  Forward Compatibility falls into that 
category:  "I cannot write Program A today that will predict what a 
future version of Program A will do."  Unless I wish to limit future 
enhancements to Program A.

However, I think we are talking about apples and oranges.

If you wish to discuss this further, please email me and save some 
bandwidth for everyone else.  If I am totally offbase, I wish to know 
and would be intrigued.

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:26:21 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: World Conquest

Rob Eaglestone writes:
<snipped>
"How can you possibly establish a beachhead
on a hostile world, unless they are four or five
TLs under you?  And in that case, how can
you expect to hold the world usefully?"

	I'd expect that economic warfare would
	be common in the Imperium, but armed
	invasions would be called for in certain
	cases. Also, in wars against other 
	interstellar units (such as the Zhodani
	Consulate), force of arms would be called
	for. As to how effective such tactics
	would be, it would not depend only on
	relative TL, but on the population of the
	planet as well.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 99 15:30:18 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: Fav Adventures

IMHO...

1) The Traveller Adventure. While it takes a little tweaking, this beauty has it all. 
Its the only cmapaign that I've done more than once.

2) The Flaming Eye (DGP).

3) Expedition to Zhodane. My group had a _blast_ with this one.


I'm also fond of the Spinward Marches Campaign - although the adventure material is 
real weak and not well developed, the background info is cool.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:41:46 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:52:27 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

>
> Here's a chart showing the odds of misjumping to various distances,
> based on the roll for number of dice to roll for distance.
> (ie distance = (1d6)d6 )
>
> There are 279936 possible rolls.
>
> hexes   chance  percentage
>
>  5      14406   5.14617626886145
>  6      16807   6.0038723136717  <---------
>  7      11832   4.22668038408779
>

Is it just a coincidence that the most likely jump distance is the same
as
the maximum "controlled" jump limit?
>>>> (end quoted material)
Based on my theory of Jump space, there would not be a coincidence in
finding that the most likely misjump is the maximum controlled Jump. 
That is very much in line with how I think of Jump space.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:42:27 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian -- BrokenFreight  Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

At 10:57 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>
>>         A couple of months ago, Ian Whitechurch (Hi, Ian!) and I hammered
>> out a reasonable cargo rate structure base on "RealWorld(tm)" cargo rates,
>> etc.  The results worked out, after a few hull design tests, to be the
>> following formula:
>>                         Freight Cost Per Ton = (Cr500 + Cr500/jp to carry)
>>
>>         So, a cargo going a distance of 2 parsecs was worth Cr500 + 2*Cr500
>> = Cr1500.  This in turn resulted in a well-tuned design making an average
>> Rate of Return Per Anum of 3%-5%....  That is of course, for a *perfect*
>> year;  full holds and no battle damage.
>
>Your formula is unclear.  Is the second term 500 _divided by_ jump parsecs,
>or is it 500 _per_ jump parsec?
>
>I'm curious because if its the former, its reasonably close to the Far Trader
>figures.
>
>Bloo

        Hi, Bloo!
        That is Cr500 per parsec cargo needs to be carried...  so, Jp1 is
Cr500 + Cr500, Jp2 is Cr500 + Cr1000, etc...

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:53:38 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Profits on Software

Several of my players got together during a month-long series of jumps and
decided to write some software.  Interestingly enough, between the three of
them they had one person with Computer-5, One person with Vargr-3, and one
person with Linguistics-3.  They decided to write a better Vargr
translator.  Surprisingly, on three rolls, they came up with two critical
successes, so I ruled that the wrote a marketable program that was slightly
better than commonly available commercial ones.  Now they want to sell it
to someone, and I'm wondering what a reasonable profit would be?  (Note:
this is set in M0, and they are in the Core sector.)

Thanks,





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
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                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
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                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:59:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 SciFiFan56@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/11/99 2:08:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> schwarz@fas.harvard.edu writes:
> 
> << Well, naturally.  The desire of women to wear dresses is a human
>  universal, after all, and so applies even to those most un-womanly women
>  in the military.  :|

                     ^^

This was, as I thought would be obvious, a sarcastic comment.  I'll
restrain myself from going on in the same vein from your perceptive
admonition.

Kenji

> Hey Guy, I'm a retired infantryman who was assigned to an personnel and admin 
> unit for my last tour of duty, I was the operations and training sergeant. It 
> was the first unit I had been assigned to with female soldiers. There was 
> nothing "unwomanly" about those soldiers....I think your talking about an 
> area in which you have no reference from which to talk. I think you owe our 
> ladies in uniform an apology. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:04:56 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)

At 09:02 PM 4/12/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Oh!  But I failed to add that I don't have a clue what "ObTrav" means...
>probably gonna hit my forehead with the palm of my hand when I'm told!!!!
>
>--  The Roc
>
>PS:  No doubt there are more :^))
>

        Obligatory Traveller reference...  "Um, the previous 90% of my post
had nothing obviously on-topic contained in it, so *maybe* if I tack these
three lines of text on the end everyone will think it was relevant"

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:11:17 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

At 11:05 PM 4/9/99 -0500, Bont wrote:
>
>Yes, that will be a problem.  I would suggest deleting all sectors 
>except for one and all Allegiances except for the ones you are using.
>
>You can turn off the refresh and the map section of the screen 
>before you load the datafile.  You can definately fit the db in 16 meg 
>of ram.  The picture is what takes so many resources.
>
>Hope this helps and let me know how it turns out.
>
>
Hello again,

The one I tried to do this operation my text reader came up
incomprehensible garbage. Bont, would you consider breaking the data file
into individual sectors for those of us with less fortunate computers?


Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:08:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?

Joseph Kimball wrote:

> >>>> (begin quoted material)
> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:52:27 -0400
> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: Misjumps -- where do you wind up?
>
> >
> > Here's a chart showing the odds of misjumping to various distances,
> > based on the roll for number of dice to roll for distance.
> > (ie distance = (1d6)d6 )
> >
> > There are 279936 possible rolls.
> >
> > hexes   chance  percentage
> >
> >  5      14406   5.14617626886145
> >  6      16807   6.0038723136717  <---------
> >  7      11832   4.22668038408779
> >
>
> Is it just a coincidence that the most likely jump distance is the same
> as
> the maximum "controlled" jump limit?
> >>>> (end quoted material)
> Based on my theory of Jump space, there would not be a coincidence in
> finding that the most likely misjump is the maximum controlled Jump.
> That is very much in line with how I think of Jump space.
> - Joseph

Actually, I'm pretty sure its just an artifact of rolling d6 d6's

Here's an idea... rather than rolling d6 d6's, roll the drive rating d6's
or limit the number of dice to the drive rating.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:47:29 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

Yeah, but did the coveralls and slicker have a built-in cooling system?  :)
I had the character do this to explain his rather poor looks (Rog uses a
Comeliness stat in his games), i.e. my char was once subject to a very bad
hull breach that caused facial damage and scarring.  Normally my characters
tend to dress completely normally while in jump space, i.e. a ship suit for
crew or normal casual dress for passengers.

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact"


>Once, when I got sick of players who insisted that their characters
>would wear their Vacc, Ablat and Cloth get up at all times, I had those
>players wear insulated coveralls and rainslicker for our game night.
>They got the point after about twenty minutes. :-)
>
>
>V.Adm. C. D. Michael, SWN-GF
>Leader of the Border Rebellion
>~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
>http://www.downport.com/ct
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:53:51 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Technology Marches On...

Once again ABC has posted some interesting stories on
new tech.

Samsung has produced a full-function Code Division
Multiple Access wrist cell phone that, batteries
included, weighs 50 grams (about 1.75 oz.), has 60
hours of standby time and 90 minutes of call time.
CDMA features include a phone directory, microphone,
vibration alert and, of course, voice-actuated dialing.

That's right, folks. A *wrist* phone. Can you say
"Dick Tracy"?

The product will ship this month.

(And what size was the comm device in TL13+ battledress?)


Another story relates to some TML posts earlier
this year pertaining to how credits are transported
from planet to planet. The discussion wound down
with one of the solutions being the use of an
electronic card which contains a certain of "credit"
in addition to various kinds of identification
information.

Heheh. Read on.

- -- Quote --

SMART CARDS: GLOBAL AT LAST 

Mark Anderson
Special to ABCNEWS.com

The world has also been waiting for a long time for global
standards and related applications for smart cards that
would drive their use into the U.S. market and across
previously proprietary technical boundaries. That word
came last week, with the announcement of an agreement
between VISA International, Europay International
(MasterCard's European partner) and two other
European credit card groups on a specification for the
"e-purse." 

The Common E-Purse Specification already carries
the approval of financial institutions in 22 countries, in
sum representing about 130 million potential customers. The
group's first goal is to achieve 90 percent penetration of
the current GeldKarte (60 million), Proton (30 million)
and Visa Cash (10 million) card holders. The function of
the cards will be to allow small purchases, such as for
transit or small services, to be paid anywhere by any card,
replacing pocket change in various currencies. The initial
marketing plan foresees using the euro currency conversion
in January 2001 as a leverage point, and moving into the U.S.
market from there.

Ultimately, the goal, in my mind at least, is to carry a
single smart card that can provide e-purse (e-cash) services,
ATM services, privacy/key/badge services for car, home and
office, plus all manner of shop transaction services. Other
useful data stores include organ-donor status, medical
emergency information, ID and a host of access codes/passwords
for Net-based services.

- -- endquote --


(We've *GOT* to get somebody working on jumpdrives!!)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:05:18 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 20 ton Bridge

Walter Smith wrote:

>How small can you make the bridge workstations, sensors, and avionics
of
>a 200dtn civilian ship in FFS2? Can you fit all that into 4dtn?

3 standard workstations (pilot, astrogator, electronics operator)
bridgeworkstations not required as no command crew is required
7m^3 ea, total 21m^3

assume TL12
3 computers ( CP 2.5, CM .4, 3.029m^3) total 9.087m^3

Radio .1m^3
laser comm .05m^3
Passive EMS (13.0) 1m^3
Active EMS (11.0) 1.25m^3
Nav aids/flight avionics .002m^3

Total 32.489m^3  (2.32 dTon)

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:02:29 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --  Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

At 08:52 PM 4/12/99 +1100, you wrote:
>>        So, a cargo going a distance of 2 parsecs was worth Cr500 + 2*Cr500
>>= Cr1500.  This in turn resulted in a well-tuned design making an average
>>Rate of Return Per Anum of 3%-5%....  That is of course, for a *perfect*
>>year;  full holds and no battle damage.
>
>I also argued for risk premiums for hazardous areas - i.e. all over the
>TNEC's frontier.
>

        Which I did implement, and my players look askance at...  "So, you
want that cargo hauled into a 2.5 - 3.0 rated area?  Not with this ship,
sorry...  I understand the Navy is sending a cruiser on a tour of that area...."

>>        Well, I discovered today, while checking the numbers on most of my
>>TNEC frieghters, that *none* of them can make any money.  They all run
>>RORPAs of -1% to -3% on a perfect year.  This is Bad.  The problem, I
>>discovered, was the TL...  The powerplant tonnages and costs at TL9 are much
>>higher than at TL15.  So the formula was broken for anything but TL15.

>In my view, the problem isnt the economic system is broken - it's the
>starship designs.
>The key is the High Guard requirement for a 20 dton bridge. FFS2 et al
>drops this - if a 200 dton Far Trader has a 4 dton bridge, then you get
>another 16 dtons of cargo space, which turns into KCr 24 per trip at Cr
>1500 a jump 2. I'd strongly advise you to drop the 20 dton minimum for
>non-military ships - it's MilSpec sensors etc etc etc.

        Well, except that its been there since CT, and under HG it is a
minimum 20tons, else a percentage of hull size.  I could turf it, but I am
really trying to fit something within the existing framework, instead of
jetisoning pieces that will complicate comparisons between my HG designs and
someone elses....

>>Since my TNEC game is average TL *9* with maximum technical UN at *11*,
>>pro-rating ship costs based on Striker didn't work...  those tables are
>>written, as far as I can see, relative to a TL 15 game milieu.
>
>Just take the exchange rate table and make a a TL11 starport A value 1 and
>refigure everything else (for starships, just do 9-A and 10-A credits).
>

        I suppose, except that this doesn't sound too speedy at the gaming
table.  Using a flat multiplier that only changes every 5-10 years of game
time seems to me to be a better mechanic.

>>        So, I went back and designed by HG the venerable Type-A, as per "The
>>Traveller Book" under High Guard.  At TL 9, it lost money, at TL15 (to my
>>surprise) it almost lost money.  As in, "one empty cargo run the whole year
>>and you are pooched" almost.
>
>The venerable type A just isnt an economically viable design under
>anything. Sorry.
>

        Which is my under-lying beef. 

>>        Based on the idea that the Type-A seems to be the most populous
>>canon passenger-frieghter, it would only exist if the design actually made
>>money.  This is a presumtion on my part, I know....
>
>A big one, and in my opinion, a bad one.
>

         As I commented on the CT-Starships mailing list, I find this very
odd.  I have never had a player *want* a Type-A...  even those who got one
for mustering out *immediatley* sold it for a minor profit and designed a
*real* ship that would make money.  If only so they could do more
interesting things and not be a slave to the loan payments.
        That so many of them exist in canon indicates to me that either the
average merchant is a masochist with a penchant for heartache, or they need
to fit the 3%-5% RORPA window somehow.  I am aiming at the later scenario.  =)


>>
>>        So, I worked out what multiplier was required to make a Type-A fit
>>the 3%-5% RORPA recipe for success.  I then redid the Type-A as a TL9
>>(which, BTW, almost matches the stats in the CT Book perfectly) and figured
>>it out again.  Came up with a bigger mutliplier, and then did a linear
>>extrapolation of the TL's in between.
>
>What profit rates does a 1000 dton trader built under HG make ? Remember,
>you can put 10 hardpoints on it, so it'll be more heavily defended as well.

        I'll work it out tonight when I get home..  I am at work right now,
and for some odd reason don't keep High Guard at my desk =).

>If you have freight prices that make a 200 dton jump-1 freighter
>profitable, than a 1000 dton jump-1 freighter should make serious money.
>

        And have some serious overhead, too.  Specifically, 10 more gunners
per month and 5 times as many engineers.

>>        The TLM is there to reflect a market economy of lower TLs.  This is
>>to reflect the higher transportation charges, construction costs and the
>>like that seem to make it much more expensive to use interstellar transport
>>at lower tech levels. 
>
>Well, it's a FFS2 design at TL9, but my 8000 dton Decafreighter came in at
>about MCr 990 for 6500 dtons of cargo space. I'd argue it's the small hull
>sizes in the TNEC that push up freight costs rather than the TL per se.
> 
>>        When I apply this to my TNEC ships, the older TL9 designs slip
>>towards 2%-3% RORPAs and the shiney new TL 11 Mirage/HAVAST-class 650dton
>>Mechant Cruiser I am working on rings in with a RORPA of 5.3%.
>
>With or without applying the exchange rate modifiers for TL9 vs TL11 ?
>

        Without...  We're not talking about going and buying a TL9 ship in a
TL11 milieu, we're talking about a TL9 ship that was build 50 years ago at
TL9 now competing for Cr against a TL11 ship built at TL11...  both cost
100%, but the TL11 vessel has the economics of the milieu on its side.

>>        Now, for MTU, I will actually reduce the TLMs by 1pt as I also have
>>a "Area Risk Multiplier" that I will add to it to account for the region the
>>ship is operating in....  ARMs in TNEC look like:
><good stuff snipped>
>

        Thanks...  I wonder if any of that is applicable to the 3i....

>>        So, while you will make a killing hauling cargo on the Frontier, you
>>are also reasonably likely to get into a major firefight once or twice a
>>year that could cost you some major repair bills.
>
>Yup. Thats the way it should be. Spend some serious money on the best
>gunners you can afford.
>

        In the Core, only mail-haulers bother with gunners.
        In the Frontier, Gunnery is an *art form*.  In fact, in some cases,
the salary for gunners is doubled by the mega-corps.

        From a role-playing perspective, my FTF group looked at the entire
concept of the Core and said..  "Hmmm... sounds boring...  we can make more
money out here..."  =)

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #438
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 439



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: World Conquest
Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)
re: 20 ton Bridge
Re: World Conquest
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
re: World Conquest
re: World Conquest
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
Re: World Conquest
Re: Liberty Ships
Re: Fav Adventures 
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
re: World Conquest
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 
Re: Technology Marches On...
Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
re: World Conquest
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
another RW stateroom ref
re: World Conquest

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:21:41 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>What does it take to conquer a world?
>
>assuming you want the biosphere intact, it takes a great deal of effort.
>
>For the purposes of this arguement, let's say that orbital control has
>laready been established, the fleet needs to move on within a fixed, fairly
>short period, and the locals control resources you want intact.  They
>refuse to surrender.

The two ways to get to this point:

(a) Slow but sure.
 a1. Jump insystem. Fly to the Gas Giant, and establish space supremecy 
     over it. Call in the rest of the fleet.
 a2. Move to the mainworld. Defeat anything else in space.
 a3. Reduce the planetary defences (Deep mesons et al). This may take
     some general destruction of surface support facilities like 
     sensors.
 a4. Beat off any fleets that are sent in the meantime.

(b) Hasty.
 b1. Jump insystem, and rush to the mainworld, defeating any spacecraft.
 b2. Flatten anything that looks like a sensor.

>The key is to identify nexii that you need to control the world.
>Communications and transportation hubs are the key.  If your troops control
>the movement of food and information, the vast majority of the population
>is likely to accept the new order.
>
>The actual invasion is going to be bloody.  This is why Marines have
>nigh-invulvernable battledress.  Their job is to carve out a safe landing
>zone for the heavy army units following them.  

You need to secure a landing zone for regular forces, as you say. There
are two options - take an existing one, or bring your own. Taking an
existing downport is going to be hard if the defenders have half a clue,
since even if your marines can bring overwhelming force to bear, the
facility is going to be wrecked. So we bring one with us.

We land on some suitable terrain (reasonably near the objectives);
secure it, and bring an `insta-downport' - earthmoving equipment to
throw up blast berms and whathaveyou, modular buildings to run the place
out of; portable fuel facilities.

While this is going on, you need to keep the defenders away from the
landing zone. You have the advantage of orbital sensors and support fire
(your fleet); the defenders know the area and have popular support /
special forces (What? You mean that the main condenser on *every*
Caterpillar is wrecked)

Once you're got your heavy troops on the ground, you're almost home...


Anyone care to turn out some designs for the modular downport and
earthmoving gear?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:31:50 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)

Gregory Wall wrote:

>Oh!  But I failed to add that I don't have a clue what "ObTrav" means...
>probably gonna hit my forehead with the palm of my hand when I'm told!!!!

`Obligatory Traveller Reference' - an attempt to put at least
*something* Traveller related in an off-topic post.

ObTrav: I'll bet that the Third Imperium Military is really big on
acronyms...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:51:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: 20 ton Bridge

Charles R. Hensley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Walter Smith wrote:

>How small can you make the bridge workstations, sensors, and avionics
of
>a 200dtn civilian ship in FFS2? Can you fit all that into 4dtn?

<snip details>
Total 32.489m^3  (2.32 dTon)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Does that include space for the Coffee Maker and Fuzzy Dice?
Don't forget to include a place for the Medical Officer to stand while
telling the Captain that he's a Doctor, not a Starship Designer.

The joys of multiple design sequences...<G>

Walt Smith

"I'm a Doctor, Jim, not a floor wax!"
"Wait! He's a Doctor, *and* a floor wax! He's dead, Jim, but look at
that shine!"        - I have *no* idea where this came from. 
                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:49:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In mail you write:

> A high-tech, high-pop world that knows you are coming should be the
> cold-sweat nightmare of every jump trooper living. If your high command
> has decided to capture it militarily without nuking it to glass, you will
> have a meatgrinder on your hands that may *never* stop eating your
> troops.
>
> Ally with it. Subvert it. Blockade it. Try *anything* else before you
> invade it.

Actually, any medium or better population world with a breathable
atmosphere and decent hydro should be able to *ignore* a blockade. A
planet's a *big* place and as long as they have a certain amount of
industry and agriculture avialable, they're self-sufficient. 

You could be on that blockade for a *long* time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:56:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 4/11/99 8:44:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> << If we take the 1094 date from Dresden's entry (his father), Lucan's only 
> 22
>  in 1116 (the abortive assassination in the GT timeline).  Entry into the
>  service or an academy certainly could be delayed by a few years for a major
>  noble such as he.
>  
>  Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too old.
>  
>  Anyone know which is right? >>

Why is 28 "too old"?

At least in the current miltary it is possible to "come up thru the
ranks", and wind up attending the academy to get the education you
missed the first time around. It ain't *common*, but it's *possible*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:00:40 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: World Conquest

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You need to secure a landing zone for regular forces, as you say. There
are two options - take an existing one, or bring your own. Taking an
existing downport is going to be hard if the defenders have half a clue,
since even if your marines can bring overwhelming force to bear, the
facility is going to be wrecked. So we bring one with us.

We land on some suitable terrain (reasonably near the objectives);
secure it, and bring an `insta-downport' - earthmoving equipment to
throw up blast berms and whathaveyou, modular buildings to run the place
out of; portable fuel facilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Matt,

Kill every civilian who knows, even in general, where your portable starport
is. Make sure you have shut down the entire planetary communication
grid, and find a way to confiscate every transmitter that's in the hands
of the populace. Find some way to locate and confiscate the meson
communicators that have been hidden away for use by the resistance
after a "successful" invasion.

There will be deep meson sites and meson submersibles that have no
intention of firing at your fleet. They're going to wait for you to set up
housekeeping, and snipe at you - one or two shots a week - for as long
as you are on the planet. Anything you have that doesn't move is going
to explode pretty soon. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:15:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: World Conquest

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Ally with it. Subvert it. Blockade it. Try *anything* else before you
> invade it.

Actually, any medium or better population world with a breathable
atmosphere and decent hydro should be able to *ignore* a blockade. A
planet's a *big* place and as long as they have a certain amount of
industry and agriculture avialable, they're self-sufficient. 

You could be on that blockade for a *long* time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
True. If the planet isn't your ultimate objective, you might be blockading it
for the rest of the war. Let's say it's the Ag-world breadbasket for several
inhospitable enemy worlds, and all you want to do is stop the grain
shipments for a while. If it's an industrial world, you may decide you'd
rather see it's grav tank production sit safely in factory warehouses,
rather than get shipped to the ground fights you did get involved with.
Whether these outcomes are worth tying up fleet elements is another
question.

Then there's always the idea of hitting his ability to ride out a blockade.
Only possible with less habitable worlds - say you're willing to sacrifice
a couple hundred starfighters to get a good chance at destroying their
vital water treatment plants, on a planet with no naturally drinkable water.
Sure, the plants can be fixed - but can they be fixed in time?

Or try the above trick with saboteurs, if your intelligence service is
up to the task.

A habitable planet with good population and tech, yeah, you're not going
to get them to surrender with a blockade under normal circumstances.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:17:02 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

In a message dated 4/11/99 8:44:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too old.
 
 Anyone know which is right? >>

MegaTraveller's "Hard Times" has him "28 years old at the start of the 
rebellion"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:22:02 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Walter Smith wrote:
> 

> Matt,
> 
> Kill every civilian who knows, even in general, where your portable starport
> is. Make sure you have shut down the entire planetary communication
> grid, and find a way to confiscate every transmitter that's in the hands
> of the populace. Find some way to locate and confiscate the meson
> communicators that have been hidden away for use by the resistance
> after a "successful" invasion.

Oy!!!

How to turn a planetary invasion into a meatgrinder.

Such opressive tactics will generally not only stiffen the resolve of
the home team, it'll also make a huge pool of willing recruits.

Sort of like Germany's failed supression of Yugoslavian partisans during
WWII. They tried the terror tactic of killing 100 civilians for every
German killed by the partisans. The civilians rapidly figured out that
going to join the partisans meant they got a rifle to shoot back at the
Germans rather than waiting for the Germans to kill them anyway. I dont
remember how many divisions of troops Germany needed desperately
elsewhere got chewed up by that one!

ObTrav...the only truly detailed canon example of this is the 3I's
invasion of Terra during the Solomani Rim War.

Even though the 3I had superior logistics by that point, the invasion
and subsequent occupation drained them completely. Gad, the hidey holes
Solomani gurillas must have had on Terra. The Impies probably couldn't
move anywhere on the planet except in large, armored forces.

The only tactical difference between the 3I and Germany a that point ws
that the 3I, fortunately, wasn't fighting a major war on another couple
of fronts.

In general, I'll suspect that Hugh Tech High Pop systems simply do not
get invaded in this fashion. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:24:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Liberty Ships

In a message dated 4/12/99 1:33:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
paul@turing.tcp.co.uk writes:

<< 
 Nope the record was either 24 or 36 _hours_. I saw part of a documentary on
 the subject recently.  >>

I stand corrected. I was confused by an old memory of a picture showing a 
launch of a Liberty ship, with a banner on her bow saying built in 36 days or 
something like that...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:46:29 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventures 

For me:

1. The Traveller Adventure
2. Nomads of the World Ocean - highly underrated Keith Bros adventure which I 
used to kick off a campaign in the Rim for a while.
3. MTJ #4

I notice they're all Keith adventures, and all quite big.

Best folio adventure was the one which came with the MT referees screen, and 
which leads into Knightfall. Knightfall I also really enjoyed, but had to do a 
significant amount of tweaking to make it fit my campaign.

M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:19:22 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

but...but...wha about <<gasp>> the hotels elite security force?!!

I know one or two guys on SJPD, they're gamers so they have at least two.  If 
they're anything like the typical deputy where I work they'll have a sense of 
humor <<translated that means they'll laugh as the tell all the other cops in 
the locker room how they got to blow away a sci-fi geek in a costume>> ah-hem.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:41:03 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: World Conquest

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Oy!!!

How to turn a planetary invasion into a meatgrinder.

Such opressive tactics will generally not only stiffen the resolve of
the home team, it'll also make a huge pool of willing recruits.
>>>>>>>>>>>
These tactics are also the only way to keep the aforementioned hideaway
meson guns getting accurate targeting information for the invader's starport, landing craft, barracks, motor pool, visiting dignitaries, etc. And the tactics 
might not work.

Meat grinder is right.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:51:53 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions) 

> 
> Both Charles and Andrew were commissioned RN Helo pilots, Edward
> enlisted in the Royal Marines but flunked out in basic training. The "tradition"
> for British Royals to become career military is a fairly recent thing, dating
> from after the 1st WW. Prior to that royals do basic training (in one of the
> more fashionable Army regiments), maybe serve a year or two and then
> move on to a career as a Noble.
> 

Charles may be qualified as a helicopter pilot, but his job in the navy was in charge of a (relatively small) ship.

M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:44:28 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On...

In a message dated 4/12/99 9:57:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

<< (We've *GOT* to get somebody working on jumpdrives!!) >>

I'll just settle for being able to see one of my children (when I get around 
to having them...) to be the first ones to set foot on Mars before I die...of 
course if they use jump drives for a microjump to get there, I'd be even 
happier...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:56:06 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Armor update (was AHL?) 

You mean the "elite security force" that got taken out a coupla' years back
while the perps ran "Buckaroo Banzai" in a loop for like six hours on the
closed circuit hotel tv station?  REAL elite :)

Jesse


>but...but...wha about <<gasp>> the hotels elite security force?!!
>
>I know one or two guys on SJPD, they're gamers so they have at least two.
If
>they're anything like the typical deputy where I work they'll have a sense
of
>humor <<translated that means they'll laugh as the tell all the other cops
in
>the locker room how they got to blow away a sci-fi geek in a costume>>
ah-hem.
>
>TAS
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:54:53 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In a message dated 4/12/99 11:02:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Actually, any medium or better population world with a breathable
 atmosphere and decent hydro should be able to *ignore* a blockade. A
 planet's a *big* place and as long as they have a certain amount of
 industry and agriculture avialable, they're self-sufficient. 
 
 You could be on that blockade for a *long* time.
  >>

Yeah; but MT Hard Times prefessed that once a planet's off world trade is cut 
off and the have to go self sufficient, their TL plummets down to what they 
can maintain (they suggested as low as TL7 which seems a little too severe to 
me...). Since they were making TL15 widgets for trade for other TL15 products 
and spare parts, they were locked into economies of scale/comparative 
adventage trade models, and this was suddenly cut off...

So you wait for the planet's TL to plummet down low enough to make an 
invasion more doable...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:18:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Walter Smith wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> Oy!!!
> 
> How to turn a planetary invasion into a meatgrinder.
> 
> Such opressive tactics will generally not only stiffen the resolve of
> the home team, it'll also make a huge pool of willing recruits.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> These tactics are also the only way to keep the aforementioned hideaway
> meson guns getting accurate targeting information for the invader's starport, landing craft, barracks, motor pool, visiting dignitaries, etc. And the tactics
> might not work.
> 
> Meat grinder is right.

Especially since all it'll take is one person with binoculars and a
compass to get you the coords to blow hell out of it.

Sub-based meson guns are _really_ nasty things to go up against. If you
just shoot and scoot, it'll be next to impossible to target you, ever.
You have the advantage of knowing the ground like, well, your own
backyard.

Hmm...methinks I'll have to get into the MG design rules and break out
Andy's FFS2 spreadsheet...gotta design some variants on MG subs.

On a mostly water world, I think those things would rule, period. You
wouldn't want to even think about invading.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:27:11 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

>>Anyone care to turn out some designs for the modular downport and
>earthmoving gear?

I don't remember where I saw this, but something said that the Empire has
an insta-downport that fits into two modular cutters.  One is the earth
moving equipment, the other is a prefab building that serves as a control
tower...

If anyone remembers where this was detailed, let us know...




          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:11:46 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

At 03:27 PM 4/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>>Anyone care to turn out some designs for the modular downport and
>>earthmoving gear?
>
>I don't remember where I saw this, but something said that the Empire has
>an insta-downport that fits into two modular cutters.  One is the earth
>moving equipment, the other is a prefab building that serves as a control
>tower...
>
>If anyone remembers where this was detailed, let us know...

I can't help with that question, but I do remember from playing Invasion:
Earth that the Impies had to establish "beachheads" before they could land
troops other than drop troops.  I'll have to go back over the the contents
of the game and see what I can find.

Personally, I think this would be a great job for those older ships that
are streamlined and have enough life left in them for "one more mission".
Add a s**tload of addon armor, high power beyond all recognition meson
screens, and remove the space to space weapons and replace it with surface
support weapons.  In short, make a run like Yamato tried before it was sent
to the bottom of the Pacific.

This would give not only a strongpoint, but support from the moment it landed.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:22:11 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: World Conquest

At 02:00 PM 4/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You need to secure a landing zone for regular forces, as you say. There
>are two options - take an existing one, or bring your own. Taking an
>existing downport is going to be hard if the defenders have half a clue,
>since even if your marines can bring overwhelming force to bear, the
>facility is going to be wrecked. So we bring one with us.
>
>We land on some suitable terrain (reasonably near the objectives);
>secure it, and bring an `insta-downport' - earthmoving equipment to
>throw up blast berms and whathaveyou, modular buildings to run the place
>out of; portable fuel facilities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Matt,
>
>Kill every civilian who knows, even in general, where your portable starport

You have CG technology, set your starport up some place remote and
defensible and set up command center where you need them.  Do not forget air
defense units for your starport.

>is. Make sure you have shut down the entire planetary communication
>grid, and find a way to confiscate every transmitter that's in the hands

For all non meson comunicaters use HARMS (homeing anti radiation missles).

>of the populace. Find some way to locate and confiscate the meson

For the meson units use human intel protocals.

>communicators that have been hidden away for use by the resistance
>after a "successful" invasion.
>
>There will be deep meson sites and meson submersibles that have no

For the subs use satalite thermal tracking in case they get sloppy and
roving sonar searching robots and bouyes.  For deep meson sites symographic
sensors followed by ordinary.

Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub fires to
often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.

>intention of firing at your fleet. They're going to wait for you to set up
>housekeeping, and snipe at you - one or two shots a week - for as long
>as you are on the planet. Anything you have that doesn't move is going
>to explode pretty soon. 
>

Make it SOP for everybody to move ever few hours, regardless, JIC.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:36:41 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

- ----------
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
> Date: Monday, 12 April, 1999 2:56 PM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 

> Why is 28 "too old"?
> 
> At least in the current miltary it is possible to "come up thru the
> ranks", and wind up attending the academy to get the education you
> missed the first time around. It ain't *common*, but it's *possible*.

True, for normal poeople.  But we're not talking about someone who would be
coming up through the ranks. We're talking about Lucan, third in line to
the Iridium throne.  I take it as a given that he would not be an enlisted
soldier.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:29:58 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: another RW stateroom ref

Hi all,

Carnival has been mentioned before, but I finally found a staterooms site on
one of the other lines that's worth a damn.  Check out:

www.princess.com/fleet/grand

Then click on staterooms.  You have the option of checking out 2D plans or
"scrollable panoramas".  DAMN!  They stole my idea! :)   I eventually plan
on having QTVR's or something similar for all my ship internals.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:45:11 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: re: World Conquest

At 08:22 PM 4/12/99 +0000, you wrote:
<snip>
>You have CG technology, set your starport up some place remote and
>defensible and set up command center where you need them.  Do not forget air
>defense units for your starport.
<snip>
>Make it SOP for everybody to move ever few hours, regardless, JIC.

Makes me think of the terran bases in Starcraft... They can lift off and
move at will... 



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #439
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 440



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Liberty Ships
Re: World Conquest
Re: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)
OT: Dark Conspiracy
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: 20 ton Bridge
Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: World Conquest
re: 20 ton Bridge
Re: The Matrix (no spoilers)
Kinunir (was Re: Imperial Fashions)
Re: 20 ton Bridge
Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))
Re: drop tanks (long)
Re: Big Ask...
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Skill Specialization
Blade Runner - was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:41:39 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Liberty Ships

In a message dated 4/12/99 4:33:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul@turing.tcp.co.uk writes:

<< 
 Nope the record was either 24 or 36 _hours_. I saw part of a documentary on
 the subject recently. >>
Sorry----Days....saw the same doc....the first one rolled off in about 50 odd 
days....By the time they got there act together it was 36...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:05:35 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

> From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
> (a) Slow but sure.
>  a1. Jump insystem. Fly to the Gas Giant, and establish space supremecy 
>      over it. Call in the rest of the fleet.
>  a2. Move to the mainworld. Defeat anything else in space.
>  a3. Reduce the planetary defences (Deep mesons et al). This may take
>      some general destruction of surface support facilities like 
>      sensors.
>  a4. Beat off any fleets that are sent in the meantime.

Small technical problem with a1. "The Gas Giant." Most systems have 
more than one. The solar system has four. If a system is being 
attacked, any decent strategist would figure out that the attackers 
had occupied the "usual" one, so reinforcements might simply come and 
secure another one... taking into account orbits, it's improbable 
that a single gas giant would *always* be the closest one to the 
mainworld, so it is even unclear if there is always a single gas 
giant presenting an strategical advantage to take over a world.
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:10:09 +0100
From: "Jeffrey Rowse" <jeff.rowse@farnhome.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)

Certain (ie UK & USA) are investigating the use of airships for long-range
maritime recon - long-range as in "We can sit up here for days" rather than
"What's happening half-way around the globe?"... they use RPV's for that.
Remember the blimp in the Bond flick?  It's called Skyship 600, and is the
elder sib of one the USNavy was playing with a few years ago.

ObTrav:  If you fill a bag with hot air, does it show on radar?
Alternatively, equip your merc unit with hang-gliders built with
carbon-fibre spars.  Okay, so you may ned to start off quite high to get
anywhere, but then what ele is the Happy Fun Ball for anyway?   Visit
interesting, out-of-the-way planets and just say 'Halo...'.

Keep on (Space) Truckin'.
Jeff R.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter G. Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 03 April 1999 03:10 PM
Subject: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)


>David P. Summers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I work at Moffett Airfield and can see the big blimp hanger
>the navy built from my office.  They used them for anti-sub
>patrols (they launched airplanes from them).  The didn't
>abandon them because of any scare.  They just had too much
>trouble with bad weather.  It was a fundamental problem that
>plagues those who talk about using them today....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The Navy launched airplanes from two zeppelins during the 1930's
>IIRC - the Akron and another. Both were short-lived experiments,
>using biplanes with an overhead hook to link up with a catcher arm
>on the zeppelin. I recall one squadron was known as "The men on
>the flying trapeze". Both were lost in bad weather, and caused the
>end of rigid airships in US government use.
>
>Blimps (non-rigid airships), on the other hand, were used extensively
>for anti-submarine patrols during WW2. They could loiter on-station
>almost indefinitely, could easily outpace a convoy or submerged
>submarine, and carried a reasonable load of depth charges.
>According to every source I've heard, no convoy under protection of
>a blimp ever lost a ship to a sub.
>
>Blimps were also pretty weather-sensitive, but probably not much more
>than your average 1940's aircraft. A blimp couldn't fly in nasty weather,
>but no plane that could fly in bad weather back then could fight in it.
>
>Walt Smith
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:57:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT: Dark Conspiracy

Hmm.

I just picked up Dark Conspiracy 2nd ed and noticed something on the cover
of the player's book. Beside the 3rd step down, by the woman's feet, is the
graffitti 'GDW Lives'.

Is this there on the original?

ObTrav: GDW.

Dom (OT)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:21:06 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)


>I'm not sure really; the Director's cut (shorter, no voice over plus the
>dream sequence) seems to hint more at the original Dick novel. The crisis
>of identity for Deckard (a replicant, although unknown to himself until the
>last seconds of the re-release) is quite subtley.


Well, apparently though the two people who matter on the subject (Scott and
Ford) can't agree on whether or not Deckard was a human or a replicant.
Scott has maintained, more or less, that Deckard is. Even in the
non-director's cut there are clues. On the other hand, Ford was never given
directions by Scott that he was a replicant and in an interview stated that
he found the idea somewhat stupid.

On the other hand, the Dick work dealt *heavily* with the concept of
identity, paying little attention to the question of the humanity of the
replicants.

>cf 'How can it not know what it is?' Deckard
>
>cf 'Have you ever taken the [voigt-kampf] test yourself?' Rachel
>
>cf 'Have you ever retired a human by mistake?' Rachel


There's another thing to: only the eyes of replicants are shown to glow in
the dark (the owl in Tyrell's conference room and Rachel in another). In one
scene Deckard's eyes are clearly going. Scott has claimed that it was his
intent to have only the replicants with glowing eyes. He said that the other
characters in the film can't see it, it's purely and effect for the
audiences.

>What I found was re-watching the film after finding out what Deckard was
>from the link between the dream sequence and the origami unicorn made me
>realise just how loaded the conversation really is.


Yep.

>Sad the ending was changed for fear that a US public acustomed to 'Star
>Wars' wouldn't like it because it is too dark and poorly explained in
>comparison.


Well, it depends: The only version available for sale (and as far as I can
tell at most places, for rent) is the Director's Cut, which has the
"correct" ending. It's a wonder why the film became so popular. Scott
fumbled the ball at several points (pay careful attention to the number of
"skin-jobs" on the street, there's one unaccounted for). Then take a look at
the scene where he retires the snake-dancer. It's all out of sequence. The
studio dropped the ball by cutting the unicorn dream sequence, changing the
ending and adding the completely inappropriate narration. Fortunately,
thanks to WB I've gotten a chance to see the DC on the big screen ;^)

At any rate, though I can't defend it better, I still maintain that the core
of the movie revolves around the humanity of the replicants, not the
identity of various characters (as Dick's work does).

Trivia question: The term "Blade Runner" is never used by Dick. What author
was the term borrowed from?

>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
>that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
>You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
>'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
>MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:58:46 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 20 ton Bridge

sorry I have not opened High Guard in years, but in FFS1&2 I consider
the computers as part of the bridge

Mark Logue wrote:

> <<<3 computers ( CP 2.5, CM .4, 3.029m^3) total 9.087m^3>>>
>
> You don't need to include the computers.  High Guard did not include
> them as bart of the "Bridge".
>
> Also, I believe there was a reference in "Traders and Gunboats" that
> the upper attic area in a Scout/Courier was part of the bridge when
> the craft was built (high performance / mil-spec commo gear, survey
> equipment, etc.), but was removed for detached duty craft.  So, there
> is a canon reference for a smaller-than-20dton bridge.
>
> I'm sending this email privately cuz my posts don't show up for some
> reason.
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:00:48 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Database for GURPS Character Maker

In a message dated 4/12/99 12:14:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bruadh@iname.com writes:

<< Hello again,
 
 The one I tried to do this operation my text reader came up
 incomprehensible garbage. Bont, would you consider breaking the data file
 into individual sectors for those of us with less fortunate computers?
 
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Brian A. Howard >>

Amen, I second the motion!!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:30:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 

> Trivia question: The term "Blade Runner" is never used by Dick. What author
> was the term borrowed from?
> 
>

Blade Runner, by (Scott)??Nolan, MD. A dark tale of the future where
medical care is severely rationed...IIRC (and this is a looooong time
ago folks, I think I was 12 when I read it) after age 60 you get none.
The protagonist is a 'blade runner'; a doctor who provides underground
health care to these people.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:39:32 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Matt Clonfero wrote:

>Anyone care to turn out some designs for the modular downport and
>earthmoving gear?


FFS2 TL10 combat earthmovers at
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/vehicles.html/    under
engineering vehicles

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:39:56 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: 20 ton Bridge

Walter Smith wrote:

>Charles R. Hensley wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Walter Smith wrote:
>
>>How small can you make the bridge workstations, sensors, and avionics
>of
>>a 200dtn civilian ship in FFS2? Can you fit all that into 4dtn?
>
><snip details>
>Total 32.489m^3  (2.32 dTon)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Does that include space for the Coffee Maker and Fuzzy Dice?
>Don't forget to include a place for the Medical Officer to stand while
>telling the Captain that he's a Doctor, not a Starship Designer.
>

Coffee warmer yes, coffee maker no
No for that I would suggest using the bridge workstations
add 1.5dTons

>The joys of multiple design sequences...<G>
isn't it fun : )

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:48:18 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: The Matrix (no spoilers)

Dear Folks -

Dom commented on one of the best movies of all time, Blade Runner, thus:
>Sad the ending was changed for fear that a US public acustomed to 'Star
>Wars' wouldn't like it because it is too dark and poorly explained in
>comparison.

That was part of it. The other part was Harrison Ford, who felt strongly
that the audience "still needed a hero to root for".

Maybe the "dark and poorly explained" is only a problem for US audiences? I
mean the director has said, even of the voice-over version, "the French
have no difficulty in picking it up" [ie. the possibility of Deckard being
a replicant].
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:57:55 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Kinunir (was Re: Imperial Fashions)

Dear Folks -

Well, it turns out that I only *thought* I had published the Kinunir
question - I hadn't.

Now I have.

If you want to try again, go to "Hyphen's Traveller pages" on my site, and
click on "CANON PROBLEM 3: The Kinunir Question" at the bottom of the page.

[Part of the problem of redesigning my entire site, I guess - I held off
putting up this page. The new site WILL be up soon (promise), when I have:
     - finised "Stephen Alkell's" DEBATE reply;
     - worked out how to use a database to sort and publish my Trav links
by name, title, and rating;
     - read, added, and rated all the new Trav page refs I have received
since Jan this year; and
     - invented a machine that gives me 48 hours per day!!]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:09:13 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: 20 ton Bridge

Dear Folks -

>>The key is the High Guard requirement for a 20 dton bridge. FFS2 et al
>>drops this

>That 20dtn minimum comes from CT Starships, not High Guard.

>How small can you make the bridge workstations, sensors, and avionics of
>a 200dtn civilian ship in FFS2? Can you fit all that into 4dtn?

High Guard and Book 2 don't take sensors or avionics into account. I'm
willing to bet that the FF&S philosophy is to split the "bridge" up into
its components, allowing you to optimise the design. If you don't need the
full-blown, expensive, bulky milspec sensor suite and NOE avionics, you get
away with having a smaller bridge.

I *know* MT splits out avionics and all the sensors, but (I can't remember,
sorry) does MT require you to set aside 20t for a bridge AS WELL?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:06:53 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 3:07 AM
> Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
>
> >I'm not sure really; the Director's cut (shorter, no voice over plus the
> >dream sequence) seems to hint more at the original Dick novel. The crisis
> >of identity for Deckard (a replicant, although unknown to himself until the
> >last seconds of the re-release) is quite subtley.
>
> Well, apparently though the two people who matter on the subject (Scott and
> Ford) can't agree on whether or not Deckard was a human or a replicant.
> Scott has maintained, more or less, that Deckard is. Even in the
> non-director's cut there are clues. On the other hand, Ford was never given
> directions by Scott that he was a replicant and in an interview stated that
> he found the idea somewhat stupid.

Who cares what Ford thinks.  His job is to do what the director wants.

[snip]

> >Sad the ending was changed for fear that a US public acustomed to 'Star
> >Wars' wouldn't like it because it is too dark and poorly explained in
> >comparison.
>
> Well, it depends: The only version available for sale (and as far as I can
> tell at most places, for rent) is the Director's Cut, which has the
> "correct" ending. It's a wonder why the film became so popular. Scott
> fumbled the ball at several points (pay careful attention to the number of
> "skin-jobs" on the street, there's one unaccounted for).

Many people have used the unaccounted replicant as further evidence
that Deckard is a replicant.  I recall reading one take on this that said
Deckard the replicant took Deckard the human's identity.


> Then take a look at
> the scene where he retires the snake-dancer. It's all out of sequence.

I'll have to look for that.

> Trivia question: The term "Blade Runner" is never used by Dick. What author
> was the term borrowed from?

Used to know that.

I enjoy the fact that when you first learn of the replicants, particular
Rutger's
character, you see the name, last name first, up on the screen.

Batty, Ray.
Batty-ray
Battery.

He's a electronic, a battery, and batty as well.

:-)



- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:28:25 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks (long)

At 07:36 pm 4/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:33:55 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>
>>>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>>>Subject: Re: drop tanks (long) was Re: Garbage
>>...
>>>them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
>>>you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
>>>used and take them with you.
>>
>>  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
>>supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.
>
>The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this
>should be true.  If you can blow them away, you can pull them
>inside.

	Unless you can drain rigid tanks and blow them away fast enough for
jump, but you CAN'T suck flexible tanks AND draw them inside (intact)
fast enough ...

	This one actually makes perfect sense to me ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:41:40 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Big Ask...

At 09:18 pm 4/12/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Again, not knowing the protocol here, this may be a big ask...  But
the lad
>that my old Traveller stuff now lives with is in need of a few out
of date
>(out of publication) stuff.  I won't go on about him wanting to have
a copy
>of Book 8: Robots (photocopy or other)

	Why not? If you search the TML archive, you should find the
definitive answer by Marc Miller: if you're photocopying for
_personal_ use only (no profit), and only because what you want isn't
available, he won't object ... how many other game companies are this
reasonable?


Oh, what the heck. I'll spare you the trouble of the search. Here's
the original post:

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:18:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trade or Sell

Once upon a time, when D&D was still new, just about everyone at GDW
made
aphotocopy of the basic D&D books because they were not yet available
in
evnough volume for everyone to have their own copy.

Once the sets became available, we all went out and bought them and
discarded
the photocopies... which were just inferior.

If someone makes a photocopy for his or her own use, that is called
fair use,
as long as it's not the whole product, and as long as its not for
resale.
That includes copying someone else's copy of the product.

That is especially true if the product itself is not currently
available (ie
CT or Mt, probably not for T4).

When someone starts photocopying multtiple copies for others, then it
gets to
be infringement.

Personally, if you want a specific work which isn't in print and you
can get
a photocopy, I think that's OK.

Marc

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:59:08 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Skill Specialization

	Dear Folks -

	Michael asked:
	>Has anyone ever considered specialization in Traveller Skills?

	From the official rules viewpoint:

	CT, no.

	MT used Skill Clusters to group skill together. It also had "serves
as"
	skills, which are a minor form of specialisation rules. One skill
could be
	used in place of another but at -1. Finally, it had a Default level
of
	skill (level 0), where you didn't get any bonuses from having the
skill,
	BUT your difficultly level didn't go up due to not having the skill,
	either.

	TNE used clusters _with_ specialisation, so that you used your
	specialisation at full effect, and the other skills in the cluster
at half
	effect.

	From memory, T4 went back to the MT version.

	G:T? Ask a GURPS player.  ;-)  However, probably not, since one of
my
	gripes with GURPS (or Rolemaster etc) is that this rule DOESN'T
exist,
	meaning you have too many skills for the PC's to choose from - too
many
	specialities to cover. Glenn has already illustrated this point very
well,
	both in terms of balance (atomic vs broad skills) and
campaign-specific
	effects ("I'll fix up the K'kree with my Medic-3 [Xenobiology] skill
while
	you track down the disease with your Medic-3 [Infectious Diseases]
skill").
	Eris would appear to agree, giving us a version similar in concept
to TNE
	but with CT/MT/T4 numbers. The "x3" seems to work well, BTW,
although you
	may need to specify more catagories.

	BTW, one source for medical and engineering specialities is "The
Imperial
	Academy of Science and Medicine" article in JTAS #21(correct
number?).

	If you are using GURPS and *want* to broaden the PC's skill base,
write
	your own rule. Consider what skills should be lumped together - MT
is a
	good base for this decision - and say that the PC can use
such-and-such a
	skill in place of the required skill, just at a lesser efficacy.
	-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
	David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        

	From memory T4 did go back to the MT version for some skill
clusters, but it also killed a fair amount (such as Liaison which served as
Streetwise-1 and Administration-1. I think that's right, but don't quote
me). 

	Using T4 but with a variant MT task resolution system instead I
assigned each skill a series of related skills, as well as breaking up
really broad skills into smaller units (such as Medical and Tactics). 

	For an unskilled default I had a DM of -3 and skill which was
related to another could either serve as that skill with a DM of -3 or add a
bonus of (Related Skill -3), whichever is more beneficial.   

	For example I made Physics related to Astrogation and thus someone
with Physics-2 who was unskilled in Astrogation actually had a default of -1
instead of -3.  If he/she had Physics-4, then if unskilled in Astrogation
they could perform the task at level (4-3 = 1) or, if skilled in
Astrogation, add a bonus DM of (4-3 = 1) to the roll. 

	Those using a related skill at a default still suffered extra time
penalties etc. over that of a skilled astrogator, but they still were much
better off than Johnny No Skill.

	BTW, the justification for the Astrogation - Physics relationship
was from a old Harry Harrison book about an adrift lifepod (I think it was
the venerable HH) where the navigator was dead and a Professor of Physics
took his place (albeit at reduced ability)

	Of course this all assumes that Traveller Astrogation is based on
Physics and I'll feel like a total total gimboid if this is not the case. 

	Anyway, the whole point was that I managed to keep an element of the
'serves as' in T4 that was nicer on defaults than T4 was (IMHO). 

	Any comments/problems/queries/blasting/jibes etc?

- -	Michael

PS Sorry about the whole SEC: UNCLASSIFIED thing, it's a work requirement. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:13:54 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Blade Runner - was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!) 

Actually the title was "The Bladerunner" and the author was Alan E Nourse 
(MD). This book was adapted by William Burroughs as "Blade Runner (A Movie)". 
Neither have anything to do with Scott's film, although AEN gave permission 
for use of the title. I have this from the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, so 
I assume it's correct :-). Also per another article, BR producer Michael 
Deeley claimed blade runner was also an obscure victorian term for private 
detective.

Some other trivia snippets:
- - Dustin Hoffman was considered for the role of Deckard
- - Dick suggested Victoria Principal for the Sean Young role
- - the original novel is set in 1992, the film is set in 2020
- - Pre-production titles included "The Android", "Animal", "Mechanismo" and 
"Dangerous Days"
- - Scott was also keen on the title "Gotham City" but Bob Kane refused 
permission to use it
- - the Deckard character was originally conceived as being similar to Bogart's 
Marlowe, and was to wear a felt hat. Ford vetoed the hat idea because he'd 
just come off Lost Ark and didn't want to carry over the same look into his 
next movie.
- - the closing scenes in the original cut were in fact out-takes from The 
Shining, provided by WB after the closing reshoot went way over budget
- - the look of the film & set was heavily drawn from Heavy Metal, in particular 
Moebius, who went on to do the design work for Fifth Element (and other stuff, 
for that matter)


> Chris Seamans wrote:
> > 
> 
> > Trivia question: The term "Blade Runner" is never used by Dick. What author
> > was the term borrowed from?
> > 
> >
> 
> Blade Runner, by (Scott)??Nolan, MD. A dark tale of the future where
> medical care is severely rationed...IIRC (and this is a looooong time
> ago folks, I think I was 12 when I read it) after age 60 you get none.
> The protagonist is a 'blade runner'; a doctor who provides underground
> health care to these people.
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #440
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 441



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Fashions
5FW history (was Re: Imperial Fashions)
Re: World Conquest
re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))
RE: Skill Specialization
Deep Meson Sites, or: how to keep the Vargr off your doorstep
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: World Conquest
Re: OT: Dark Conspiracy
Re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))
Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?
Re: Blade Runner - was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!) 
Re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))
Far Trader has arrived!
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Jump space - some thoughts
GT vs CT TL's
Blade Runner was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Fav Adventures
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Skill Specialization

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:57:57 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

> From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
> Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions
> 
> >> OT: I always wondered what female officers wore to their weddings: bridal
> >> outfits or full dress uniform?
> 
> >I'm sure a Marine officer, at least, wears full dress uniform on his or
> >her wedding day.
> 
> I have a female friend who is getting married this summer and is also in the
> military. She is getting married in a white bridal dress. I think most
> women, even in the services, would prefer to get married in a dress.

That's probably true today, but will it be true 3,000 years from now, in
a society in which women have total equality (which can be inferred from
comments in the character generation system), and have had it for some
time?  In my Traveller universe, one of the great attractions of
Imperial service for women and non-humans in the Imperium is that those
services foster a culture in which discrimination on the basis of
species, gender, religion, etc. is not tolerated, while that is often
not the case in member states.  (The major exception is that social
standing can be a major assist in a Navy career.)  

In any case, I still think a Marine being a Marine (and my Imperial
Marines are even more gung ho than the US Marines of today) would still
wear full dress uniform.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:14:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: 5FW history (was Re: Imperial Fashions)

> From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>

> What does the Grand Princess of the Imperium Ciencia Iphegenia do with her
> time? It says in G:T that she is a staunch supporter of the IISS. At 30 (in
> 2118) she is still unmarried. In 1121 she is to visit the Spinward Marches.
> Norris Aella Aledon, the Archduke of Deneb is also unmarried. He was leading
> the Imperial forces against the Zhodani in 1108 in the Fifth Frontier War,
> when she was twenty. He must have been to core at some time during that
> year, to procure the Imperial Warrant that allowed him to turn the war
> around. Could the Grand Princess have been responsible for that? After all
> Norris was just another sector duke, with no military command experience.
> why would the Emperor trust him with such an important task?

Remember that the warrant was sent to Norris with, if I recall
correctly, a small fleet. The ship carrying the warrant was shot down
over Algine, an interdicted world.  Norris violated the interdiction to
retrieve the warrant.  Once he had the warrant, he pardoned himself for
violating the red zone.  It was a risk -- if the warrant hadn't actually
been there, he was in violation of Imperial law.

Why Norris?  Because Admiral Santanocheev had alienated Naval
Intelligence by forming his own body of yes-sophonts to tell him that
all was well with respect to the Zhodani. Norris had had a distinguished
career as a Naval Intelligence officer before his brother, the heir to
the duchy, died.  When he reported on Santanocheev's ineffectiveness to
the Imperial high command, he had the credibility to be believed, and
eventually was given command of all Imperial forces in the Marches for
the duration of the war.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:06:37 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

> Matt Clonfero wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> We land on some suitable terrain (reasonably near the objectives);
> secure it, and bring an `insta-downport' - earthmoving equipment to
> throw up blast berms and whathaveyou, modular buildings to run the place
> out of; portable fuel facilities.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

How about some nice patch of ocean?  You can do soft landings, you can hide
your own boats underwater, and you can interdict and grab some little
island if you need actual dry land.

Walt Smith wrote:
> There will be deep meson sites and meson submersibles that have no

Land your own (grav) wet navy to hunt the subs.

Hmm.  Dolphin marines doing meteoric assaults.  Dolphin lift cavalry units,
with...  grav bikes!  Yes!

At high TLs, wet navies are still relevant on many worlds, aren't they? 
And since they're grav units, they can operate on desert worlds too. 
Hmm... Imperial Dolphin Camel Corps?  Maybe not.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
("back again" but living in a jerkwater provincial city now, mumble,
mumble...)
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:36:39 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))

Ah, but story telling - in both the movies as in RPG requires the 
co-operation of more than one party. Dunno about anyone else, but my
experience as a GM brings to mind the old Prussian commentary about battle
plans and their decided lack of survivability rather than the various
"Artiste" theories of cinema.

The problem with Blade Runner - and IMHO what keeps it _out_ of the ranks of
the great - is that Ford and Scott were not on the same sheet of music. Each
had a very conflicting aesthetic that they brought into the film and (more
that likely subconciously) fought each other the whole time.

Ob trav - how many times have _your_ players done the opposite of what you
wanted? (Like in the Star Wars RPG - my players _joined_ the bleating
Empire! Great set of adventures though; black comedy writ large...)

William


>Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>> Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 3:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
>>
>> >I'm not sure really; the Director's cut (shorter, no voice over plus the
>> >dream sequence) seems to hint more at the original Dick novel. The crisis
>> >of identity for Deckard (a replicant, although unknown to himself until the
>> >last seconds of the re-release) is quite subtley.
>>
>> Well, apparently though the two people who matter on the subject (Scott and
>> Ford) can't agree on whether or not Deckard was a human or a replicant.
>> Scott has maintained, more or less, that Deckard is. Even in the
>> non-director's cut there are clues. On the other hand, Ford was never given
>> directions by Scott that he was a replicant and in an interview stated that
>> he found the idea somewhat stupid.
>
>Who cares what Ford thinks.  His job is to do what the director wants.
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:46:01 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Skill Specialization

Dear Folks -

Michael wrote:
>From memory T4 did go back to the MT version for some skill
>clusters, but it also killed a fair amount (such as Liaison which served
as
>Streetwise-1 and Administration-1.

My belief is that Liaison was zapped in order to make room for Diplomacy (a
very similar skill). I think Marc wanted Diplomacy in order to give M:0
nobles something to do.  ;-)  I mean, Diplomacy *is* Liaison, just with a
more restricted (and therefore clearer) definition.

I always found that Liaison was a weird one, sitting as it does above
Streetwise and Admin in terms of the social classes it deals with. Maybe a
case can be made to retain both Liaison and Diplomacy  - although as I said
in another topic, I generally dislike making extra specialities. Here's an
instance where the Default/Included rule should be used: if I have some
ability to deal with military types, for eg (Liaison), then I should have
at least some idea of how to communicate with diplomats and higher social
classes (Diplomacy-1 or -2).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:57:37 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Deep Meson Sites, or: how to keep the Vargr off your doorstep

Okay then, do we have any pre-fab examples of a subterranean
meson emplacement for me to oooh and aaah over?  I'd love to
see how much damage they can do, how much they cost, what
size power plant they need, crew requirements, etc.  This is way
to useful to pass up!

One of our campaigns is military; another is exploratory/odd jobs;
an older one was economic.  I hope to merge all three into one
big, epic tale of how a few separate but related streams come
together to pull off a Most Amazing Adventure: survival of a
remote little pocket of worlds amidst the Rebellion, the Vargr,
and perhaps the Virus (or not).

One group is currently lost in the Foreven sector, next to the
Darrian worlds.  Another group is with the Navy at Rhylanor.
A third group, or what's left of it, is scattered across the
Rhylanor and Regina subsectors, and includes a Baron's
daughter and a rich merchant.  Together, these groups can
pull enough resources to take control of some small but
promising systems and turn them into a local powerhouse.

By the way, if David Smart is reading this: does your Zhodani
posess or have access to someone with clairvoyance?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:56:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)


>Blade Runner, by (Scott)??Nolan, MD. A dark tale of the future where
>medical care is severely rationed...IIRC (and this is a looooong time
>ago folks, I think I was 12 when I read it) after age 60 you get none.
>The protagonist is a 'blade runner'; a doctor who provides underground
>health care to these people.


That's basically correct. Scott has said he got the term from a work by
William S. Burroughs called "Blade Runner: The Movie." There is a note
towards the end of the credits that puts out a special thank you to William
S. Burroughs which supports his claim. However, Burroughs didn't come up
with it originally. He got the term from Alan E. Nourse who wrote the book
"The Bladerunner." The Burroughs work is based on the Nourse book with some
changes here and there.


Chris "He say you *brade-runner*!" Seamans (semo@pil.net)
www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:52:58 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Shadow wrote:

<Actually, any medium or better population world with a breathable
<atmosphere and decent hydro should be able to *ignore* a blockade. A
<planet's a *big* place and as long as they have a certain amount of
<industry and agriculture avialable, they're self-sufficient. 

...I dont think so. I just read Far Trader and have all the 'trade is the 
lifeblood of the
Imperium ' stuff in my ears (eyes? ;-)) ...without trade the planet in 
question is in for 
some BIG logistical problems...go ask Adam Smith  :)

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:53:00 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: Dark Conspiracy

dom asked:

<I just picked up Dark Conspiracy 2nd ed and noticed something on the cover
<of the player's book. Beside the 3rd step down, by the woman's feet, is the
<graffitti 'GDW Lives'.
<
<Is this there on the original?

...yepp, it was ...just looked it up...

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:13:04 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))

- -----Original Message-----
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 7:29 PM
Subject: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))


>Who cares what Ford thinks.  His job is to do what the director wants.


Ultimately the actor is the one we identify with, not the director.

>
>[snip]
>
>> >Sad the ending was changed for fear that a US public acustomed to 'Star
>> >Wars' wouldn't like it because it is too dark and poorly explained in
>> >comparison.
>>
>> Well, it depends: The only version available for sale (and as far as I
can
>> tell at most places, for rent) is the Director's Cut, which has the
>> "correct" ending. It's a wonder why the film became so popular. Scott
>> fumbled the ball at several points (pay careful attention to the number
of
>> "skin-jobs" on the street, there's one unaccounted for).
>
>Many people have used the unaccounted replicant as further evidence
>that Deckard is a replicant.  I recall reading one take on this that said
>Deckard the replicant took Deckard the human's identity.


Yes, I've heard this one myself. There was supposed to be another replicant.
She was in the script but cut out sometime during the filming. She was a
"super-mom" model. Ultimately, this is why the scenes toward the middle of
the film are somewhat out of sequence. The cut her out, but they didn't film
certain scenes over. The initial count is incorrect also.

>I'll have to look for that.


It's one of those things that you notice after a few viewings and you're
like "huh?" Keep an eye out for Deckard's disappearing and reappearing
alcohol and wounds.

>I enjoy the fact that when you first learn of the replicants, particular
>Rutger's
>character, you see the name, last name first, up on the screen.
>
>Batty, Ray.
>Batty-ray
>Battery.
>
>He's a electronic, a battery, and batty as well.


Battery. That's a pretty good one ;^)

ObTrav: You can't walk fifty feet IMTU without tripping over an android.
Different TLs and cultures have different methods of designing creating and
using androids. My Imperium doesn't consider them citizens, but some planets
do. They are often created by different corporations with certain
distinguishing characteristics: eyes that are completely black, markings
weaved into their skin, bizarre coloration, no hair, etc. You get the drift.
Some are completely biological, as the replicants appear to be in Blade
Runner, while others are completely electro-mechanical. Many sit somewhere
in between.

Of course, all my high-pop worlds look like Sid Meade's futuristic Los
Angeles in Blade Runner ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:19:40 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?

Executive Summary:

Ship construction rules a la TCS are wartime hyperproduction
only.  Shipyards are designed to meet demand.  (Exception is
Naval shipyards, of course, but those won't build civilian ships).

For more realistic build rates per year, divide your starport
'A' system's population by 1,000,000.  That may be somewhere
between  2.5% and 10% of your annual ship-traffic-tonnage.  If
it takes 30 to 40 years to replace a ship, then divide traffic by 30
to 40 and that's your demand.  Please know that this number is
general... some starports do much better business for all kinds of
reasons.  That's where adventures can begin.



Body of Argument:

It sounds reasonable that an Imperial shipyard can cobble
together a starship in a relatively short time, given robotic
facilities, modular components, etc.

Why would a shipyard want to build a starship in one day?

It wouldn't.  Why?

Demand isn't high enough.

Mora has tens of billions of people, a Naval base, a class A starport,
and an enviable tech level.  Trillion Credit Squadron says Mora
might be able to churn out 1,000,000+ tons of starship per year,
or 20,000+ tons per week, which can be at least:

1 x 5000t freighter
5 x 1000t freighters
2 x 800t mercenary cruisers
5 x 600t liners
5 x 400t subsidized merchants
5 x 400t patrol ships
4 x 200t far traders
2 x 100t scouts
2 x 100t couriers

This is a conservative number.  I think the system population
actually supports 3 or 4 times this production.  Anyway...

31 ships per week, or 1500 ships per year.  15,000 ships per
decade.  Fifteen thousand ships?  That's fine if you have to fill
the shipping lanes from scratch, but is this supposed to be the
replacement rate of an existing interstellar economy?  I don't
know... it would be if that was the only functioning class A
starport in the area.  But it isn't.  There are gobs of them.  If you've
been on this list long enough, you've seen the raw numbers; truly
staggering.  On the average, I'd say a subsector will have a
build potential of several million tons per year.  This is overkill,
and not profitable to the starports.  Thus this number is only
a potential, and only meaningful in full-tilt wartime production.


Bottom line: shipbuilding is tied to demand; in fact, it may be
slightly less than demand.  And demand is tied to trade, of
course.  The question is how?

One we know that the demands on Mora's shipyards are X
ships per year, then we start to get an idea of how the load
is distributed.  It won't be nearly as industrialized as you may
think: robotic factories (especially high tech ones) are expensive,
so you want to buy only what you need, with little extra (unless
the Navy subsidizes you) and you want to run those robots as
often as possible, with plenty of maintenance breaks.  I'd say
no civilian starship will be completed in under a month.  In
fact, I'd say High Guard/CT have reasonable build times.

But if your starport is on a smaller world, then expect delays.
If they don't have delays, then I'd suspect that they are a
secret Zhodani base.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:22:23 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Blade Runner - was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 8:16 PM
Subject: Blade Runner - was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)


>Neither have anything to do with Scott's film, although AEN gave permission
>for use of the title. I have this from the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction,
so
>I assume it's correct :-).

It looks basically correct with one minor error. Burroughs gave permission
for use of the title (as evidenced in the ending credits). Scott has never
mentioned Nourse in any interviews I've read. But since Burroughs based his
work on Nourse's, that's where the term really comes from.

>Also per another article, BR producer Michael
>Deeley claimed blade runner was also an obscure victorian term for private
>detective.


Really? That's interesting. I wonder if it's true?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:33:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))

- -----Original Message-----
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 12, 1999 8:43 PM
Subject: re: Blade Runner (was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!))


>Ah, but story telling - in both the movies as in RPG requires the
>co-operation of more than one party. Dunno about anyone else, but my
>experience as a GM brings to mind the old Prussian commentary about battle
>plans and their decided lack of survivability rather than the various
>"Artiste" theories of cinema.


I agree. In RPGs it plays a big factor. If the players and GMs aren't on the
same page it can create some serious difficulties.

>The problem with Blade Runner - and IMHO what keeps it _out_ of the ranks
of
>the great - is that Ford and Scott were not on the same sheet of music.
Each
>had a very conflicting aesthetic that they brought into the film and (more
>that likely subconciously) fought each other the whole time.


Very true, although it is in my own "great film" category for a number of
reasons, few of which are relevant to the discussion or the mailing list.

>Ob trav - how many times have _your_ players done the opposite of what you
>wanted? (Like in the Star Wars RPG - my players _joined_ the bleating
>Empire! Great set of adventures though; black comedy writ large...)


Almost always, but I learned when running Traveller that I have to run
things fast, loose and off-the-cuff. In other RPGs it's easy to plan for
certain contingencies. In Traveller, however, especially in the settings
that I like to run and my players like to play (high-pop, well established
worlds) you can never plan more than a session or two in advance.

That's why I keep lists... Pages and pages of lists. I've got Vilani names,
Aslan names, multicultural Terran names, ship names and city names. I've got
lists of NPCs, lists of simple plot elements, lists everywhere. In a "fast
and loose" game, this stuff is pretty much required and makes things run so
much better.

It's so much easier when you can just look at a list and work out all the
little details of a side trip.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:08:40 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Far Trader has arrived!

Dear Folks -

For the info of anyone in Canberra, Australia, _Far Trader_ has just lobbed
at the Games Cupboard, Woden (my FLGS ;-).

Cost is AU$41.95 (Ouch! Airfreight plus currency conversion are killers!
This'll go on layby for sure...)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:53:00 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

At 03:30 PM 4/12/99 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>Chris Seamans wrote:
>> 
>
>> Trivia question: The term "Blade Runner" is never used by Dick. What author
>> was the term borrowed from?
>> 
>>
>
>Blade Runner, by (Scott)??Nolan, MD. A dark tale of the future where
>medical care is severely rationed...IIRC (and this is a looooong time
>ago folks, I think I was 12 when I read it) after age 60 you get none.
>The protagonist is a 'blade runner'; a doctor who provides underground
>health care to these people.

I have a vague recollection (and no saved msg to back it up!) of a thread
about this some time ago on this list...  Unless the thread was a joke
(and, if so, I was taken in by it!), wasn't Blade Runner the anglicization
of something or other in German that had something only peripherally to do
with hunting androids?  Does anybody else out there remember this, or am I
losing my mind and/or memory?


Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:52:16 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Jump space - some thoughts

There has been a lot of debate recently about the 100 diameter limit
precipitating ships out of jump, and whether 'closely' packed fleets
can jump synchronously....

In GT it clearly says "Jump uses a straight line in calculating
courses. If that straight line intersects a 100-diameter sphere around
an object ****of more than 1 mile in diameter,**** the ship is
'precipitated' out of jump space." (GT p.120, emphasis mine)

IMTU I use this as a guideline for how big an object has to be before
exerting an effect on jump space, so unless the ships in a fleet are
truly mahoosive they will not affect each other.

Also, arguments as to whether a certain level of gravity etc can be
calculated for a distance and used to 'fine tune' diameter
requirements for jumping are, IMHO, meaningless <G>.  These arguments
and calculations are based on RW physics...but we all accept that jump
physics are well weird, else you still wouldn't be able to go anywhere
upto 36 parsecs in a week, or that no matter how far you go it only
takes a week.  If we can accept these properties are different, why
can't we just accept that the topography of the dimensions known as
jump space is such that mass/gravity etc bend it in a non-RW way, and
that 10/100 diameters ***just are*** the limits.

Just my Cr0.02,

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:00:10 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: GT vs CT TL's

Just a suggestion, but would it be possible for posters to indicate
whether a stated TL is GT or CT
e.g. TL-10 (GT) / TL-13 (CT)
or    TL-10 (Gurps) / TL-12 (Imp)
etc.

I only ask because sometimes it is unclear which version people are
talking about, and as a bystander it can be confusing. YMMV.

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:13:22 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Blade Runner was Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

>Trivia question: The term "Blade Runner" is never used by Dick. What author
>was the term borrowed from?

It was a novel by an author I can't remember where medical treatment was
tightly controlled. The ultimate end to Medicare and the government control
of the medical system. (this was written in the sixties, remember). A "Blade
Runner" was a person who provided illegal medical supplies to doctors
working illegally in the underground to give unauthorized patients medical
care. The "Blade" was a scalpel. the "Runner" the illegal provider.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:26:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventures

Hmm, that's a toughie.  I have to say that I've never played a published
adventure without some HEAVY modification, but my favorite starting points
and/or sources of inspiration would be:

1. Nomads of the World Ocean:  I basically played it as "Dune" with water
instead of sand.  The nomads became the fremen, PDPT-beta was spice, etc.
I figure this is what the authors had in mind...

2. Marooned/Marooned Alone:  Was a player in a great variant of Marooned
Alone.

3. Chamax:  Mass killing!  Lots of fun for all...

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:35:19 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE: Skill Specialization

>If you are using GURPS and *want* to broaden the PC's skill base,write your
own >rule. Consider what skills should be lumped together - MT is a good
base for this >decision - and say that the PC can use such-and-such a skill
in place of the >required skill, just at a lesser efficacy.

GURPS already has this built in, (as an optional rule, of course.)  Most
skills have a default skill level. Related skills default higher. For
instance a gunnery (Beam Weapon/TL9) skill will default to a certain value
for gunnery (Beam Weapon/TL12) to compensate for the gunner's unfamiliarity
with the weapon.

Character templates already lump together certain skills for a specific
character type. For instance Belter (G:T p88) or merchant (G:T p97). And
some skills can be defaulted high enough not to even require a skill roll
under most circumstances, as in driving(auto) skill for a 20th century
American or (probably) grav sled for a Imperial 12th century Core resident.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #441
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 442



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: World Conquest
Re: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?
Re: Jump space - some thoughts
Re: drop tanks
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: drop tanks
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather) 
Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: drop tanks (long)
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*
Re: Imperial Fashions
re: World Conquest
Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)
Profits on Software
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Imperial Fashion
GT vs CT TL's
Re: Blade Runner 
Collapsible tanks, etc.
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.
Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:41:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Regarding the power of meson guns against invading forces:  How effective
are Meson Screens?  I'd load up on them if I was the invader.  

I wonder if you could create a bunch of very large, possibly weak, meson
screens and use them to detect the direction from which meson strikes are
coming?  If you had a lot of them positioned all over the planet with,
say, 1000 km radii overlapping, and they could detect where meson strikes
went through them (not sure about that), this would go a long way to
determining where the shooter was.  Once you've got a general idea, you
hem it in with more meson screens and other conventional sensors.

Also, punitive counter-measures are a cruel but often effective tactic
once you've got orbital superiority: "If you take out one of our bases
with a submarine meson gun, we orbitally bombard 10 of your major
population centers."

Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of people to
"call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a compass. 
If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set of
coordinates.  The problem would only get worse in a society where people
typically "dial-a-destination" in their grav vehicles.  Military personel
could do it, of course, but you wouldn't have to "capture every comm unit
on the planet". 

Just some thoughts...
Charles.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:26:16 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Conquest

How you conquer a world will depend on how much the population doesn't want 
to get conquered as much as anything else.

	In the Rebellion, a world in Dagudashaag probably doesn't have much 
at stake whether Lucan or Dulinor is in charge, so a quick drop of troops at 
the starport and elimination of faction-loyal forces could be pretty quick.

	On the other hand, say a long-time loyal Margaret world in Hard Times 
is invaded by Lucan, it might put up serious resistence for an extended 
period.  But on the other hand, Lucan is likely to react irrationally and 
blast them all to cinder--so perhpas surrender might be quick.

	Perhaps this is why Corridor planets surrendered so quickly, they new 
that Vargr had no tradition oppsoing use of Weapons of Mass destruction on 
civilians.

	It is the ratio of will of populace to  possible outcome as much as 
technologicla plans that will determine how long the conquest will last.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:09:53 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?

Rob Eaglestone wrote:

> Why would a shipyard want to build a starship in one day?
>
> It wouldn't.  Why?
>
> Demand isn't high enough.

A shipyard will have as its goal to be in constant use.  No down time.
Down time sucks money and cuts profits.  So, the reasonably prudent
shipyard will design itself with capacity to handle whatever demand
there is, on whatever time frame it operates (IMO, quarterly shareholder
profits won't be as driving a force as it is now, but 2, 3 or even 5 year
profits will be the measuring stick).

Pumping up production capacity is costly, but if circumstances warrant
and the economies of scale for production costs is there, it can be done.
I think this will vary by area of the Imperium.  If I had a shipyard in the
Spinward Marches, I'd want to have excess capacity of 15% in case
of war, trade boon, etc.  But in Core, I wouldn't want any at all.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:22:02 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump space - some thoughts

>
> Also, arguments as to whether a certain level of gravity etc can be
> calculated for a distance and used to 'fine tune' diameter
> requirements for jumping are, IMHO, meaningless <G>.  These arguments
> and calculations are based on RW physics...but we all accept that jump
> physics are well weird, else you still wouldn't be able to go anywhere
> upto 36 parsecs in a week, or that no matter how far you go it only
> takes a week.  If we can accept these properties are different, why
> can't we just accept that the topography of the dimensions known as
> jump space is such that mass/gravity etc bend it in a non-RW way, and
> that 10/100 diameters ***just are*** the limits.

Because people that accept that don't argue the point.  Since we don't
accept that, we do argue the point.

The reason I question all this stuff has nothing to do with normal uses of
technology, its the unusual uses and implications that interest me.  For
example, if I want to precipitate somebody out of jumpspace (perhaps for a
hijacking), what property of a 1 mile diameter body causes the
precipitation?  What small part of a jumpdrive can I damage and have
manufactured on a low tech world?  If the jump drive uses all that fuel at
once, what other technologies can use that kind of energy as well?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:26:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: drop tanks

David P. Summers writes:

>>>them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
>>>you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
>>>used and take them with you.
>>
>>  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
>>supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.
> 
>The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this should be true.
>If you can blow them away, you can pull them inside.

But if the tanks are rigid, there's not much point in that. They would take
MORE interior space than ordinary interior tanks. And the rules specifically
states that you can't use fuel from collapsible tanks directly in the jump
drive (Don't ask me why, I don't know. But then, I don't know how a jump
drive works either.)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:32:44 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 11:41 PM 4/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Regarding the power of meson guns against invading forces:  How effective
>are Meson Screens?  I'd load up on them if I was the invader.  
>
>I wonder if you could create a bunch of very large, possibly weak, meson
>screens and use them to detect the direction from which meson strikes are
>coming?  If you had a lot of them positioned all over the planet with,
>say, 1000 km radii overlapping, and they could detect where meson strikes
>went through them (not sure about that), this would go a long way to
>determining where the shooter was.  Once you've got a general idea, you
>hem it in with more meson screens and other conventional sensors.

Sounds almost like something the Torpedo Sphere from Star Wars:RPG.  It was
designed to do one thing and one thing only:  Destroy a planet's defenses.
Perhaps the 3I and her enemies might field something similar, perhaps one
supported squadron per sector or for that matter, Domain.



Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:39:02 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: drop tanks

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> David P. Summers writes:
>
> >>>them at all.  As someone pointed out in an early "go round",
> >>>you can actually pull the thanks into the ship as they are
> >>>used and take them with you.
> >>
> >>  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
> >>supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.
> >
> >The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this should be true.
> >If you can blow them away, you can pull them inside.
>
> But if the tanks are rigid, there's not much point in that. They would take
> MORE interior space than ordinary interior tanks. And the rules specifically
> states that you can't use fuel from collapsible tanks directly in the jump
> drive (Don't ask me why, I don't know. But then, I don't know how a jump
> drive works either.)

Here's a stunt:
Install collapsible tanks on the outside of the hull.  Use internal tankage for
initial high displacement jump, then pump the fuel into the internal tanks,
collapsing the external tanks and jump again at reduced displacement.   It isn't
quite as good as being able to directly use the fuel as per drop tanks, but you
don't have to replace the tanks either.  I'd have to run the numbers but I think
you can do a 2/5 hop or maybe a 1/3/5 hop

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:42:58 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

> >  Unfortunately, his own biography says 1088, which makes him 28 and too 
old.
> 
> Why is 28 "too old"?
> 
> At least in the current miltary it is possible to "come up thru the
> ranks", and wind up attending the academy to get the education you
> missed the first time around. It ain't *common*, but it's *possible*.

Going up "through the ranks" (or as I usually hear it, becoming a Mustang) is 
possible, but the US military academy's are limited from ages 17 to 22, 
though it's possible to get a waiver (like it is for a number of other 
disqualifying features).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:42:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Granfather) 

My top three go thus.  

1) Path of Tears.	Detailed world writeups (player brief, worldmaps, and 
ref data) for 19 worlds and 6 subsectors.  Each world has, on average, 6 or 7 
adventure "nuggets."  Details of the Coalition, its politics, its military 
forces, ship designs, etc.
This can run a campaign for years (it did for me and I've hardly exhaused it 
by half).

2) Arrival Vengeance.  Combine the Azhanti High Lightning deckplans (flawed, 
though they are, at least w/o modification) w/ a good starspanning adventure. 
 Though i've never run it, it looks pretty fun and is giving me a good model 
in constructing a similar mission for the post shakedown runs of the RCS 
Belladonna.

3) Double Adventure 6.  As others have pointed out, has great potential.  It 
seems far more appropriate to the Wilds in the New Era, w/ very minor 
modifications, IMO.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:42:56 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: How much time does it take to build a starship?

> As others mentioned, there are a lot of factors in
> building a starship.  My handwaves were really
> to figure out how long it took to build a starship.
> I don't think any material since CT tried to guess.
> 
> Anyone have ideas on this?

Paul Walker (tiger@goldinc.com) has some very good rules that are on Andrew 
Vallance's webpage and soon to be up on mine (w/ modification).

Basically, my mod's would go thus:

Construction time:

>  Tc = (0.208 * P)/(D^0.5) 
> 
> Where: Tc = Construction Time in Years D = Displacement Tons P = Price 
> in MCr 

and "Trial Time" (for shakedown cruise, etc, which will be the major focus of 
my elaboration/changes).

> Tt=((P*10)/D)/12 
> 
> Where: Tt = Trial time in years P = Price in MCr D = Displacement Tons" 

My changes would go in replacing "Price in MCr" w/ maintenance points, which 
already has a tie in for tech level, as IMO should be a factor.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:42:55 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

> >It makes a difference.  It means that when I want to construct
> >a believable setting (or SJGs writes stuff for me) effort that
> >could go to other things has to go to making sure that all the
> >drop tanks are presented believably, that players choices
> >reflect the existance of them, etc.
> 
> This applies equally to a host of other issues that are usually similarily
> glossed over. You're not writing an economic dissertation about drop tanks,
> you are running a game. Just make up something that sounds reasonable.
> Shouldn't take you more than a few minutes.

Aw, but it's easier to declare them, by fiat, impossible or catastrophically 
destructive to the Traveller Universe (though the economic analysis of Far 
Trader would indicate quite the opposite).  
 
I prefer to rationalize or find an interesting reason for the quirky and 
sometimes cheesy things (especially like Beyond sector, etc) in Traveller's 
history. :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:48:43 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: drop tanks (long)

> >
> >The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this
> >should be true.  If you can blow them away, you can pull them
> >inside.
>

> Dave Golden Wrote:
> Unless you can drain rigid tanks and blow them away fast enough for
> jump, but you CAN'T suck flexible tanks AND draw them inside (intact)
> fast enough ...
>

Just to add to your point:

Wouldn't a collapsable tank (flexible tank) be subject to micrometeorites
and other things floating in space? Wouldn't be good to have your fuel
bladder popped as your preparing to jump. I feel if your going to put the
tanks on the outside, you need to armor them as you would the rest of the
ship. If not, they're going to get eaten up and destroyed before you have a
chance to use them. (And they certainly won't survive a fire fight)

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:41:18 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

How about we assume the TL is normal Traveller, unless otherwise stated as
G:T.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> Matthew Bond wrote:
> Just a suggestion, but would it be possible for posters to indicate
> whether a stated TL is GT or CT
> e.g. TL-10 (GT) / TL-13 (CT)
> or    TL-10 (Gurps) / TL-12 (Imp)
> etc.
>
> I only ask because sometimes it is unclear which version people are
> talking about, and as a bystander it can be confusing. YMMV.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:48:08 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*

>Well, after a month & a half hiatus, I'm back.  I state categorically for the
>record that I *HATE* computers!!!!!!!  <grin>

Now, now, this is just displacement. Computers are tools,
they do only what you tell them to. Any mistake must be
your fault

I know this because Microsoft tells me so.

>But foolishly, I had a massive multiple hardware failure here that took me
>awhile to figure out and fix.  *NOT FUN*.  But I'm back now.

>Who missed me??

I'm sorry, do we know you ?



(and just in case  :  <grin> )

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:15:00 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

> That's probably true today, but will it be true 3,000 years from now, in
> a society in which women have total equality (which can be inferred from
> comments in the character generation system), and have had it for some

Careful, the chargen system is not meant to be representative of the general 
population (i believe this was explicitly stated?), but represents 
"Travellers" (the wealthy, the nobility, the riff-raff w/o roots, etc).  

> time?  In my Traveller universe, one of the great attractions of
> Imperial service for women and non-humans in the Imperium is that those
> services foster a culture in which discrimination on the basis of
> species, gender, religion, etc. is not tolerated, while that is often
> not the case in member states.  (The major exception is that social
> standing can be a major assist in a Navy career.)  

Your Imperium is far different from teh Imperium of canon (and sectors from 
the thing in M:0), where the credit and commerce is the bottom line.  The 
only thing off limits is slavery, weapons of mass destruction and piracy.  
Hell, govts which oppress *everyone* are given the wink and nod and even the 
support of the Imperial Marines, as long as they pay their taxes and support 
the nobility (which is hardly a rule by law, but a rule by men, err... 
sophonts)...

This issue, amongst others, is dependant on many issues (religion, morality, 
etc) that'll probably only end up in huge flame wars.  I'm game, though...  
:-)  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:07:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: World Conquest

> From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
> Subject: re: World Conquest

> A high-tech, high-pop world that knows you are coming should be the
> cold-sweat nightmare of every jump trooper living. If your high command
> has decided to capture it militarily without nuking it to glass, you will
> have a meatgrinder on your hands that may *never* stop eating your
> troops.
> 
> Ally with it. Subvert it. Blockade it. Try *anything* else before you
> invade it.

After the first time I finished a whole game of Invasion: Earth, I was
reminded of Pyrrhus' remark after being congratulated on having defeated
the Romans, to the effect of "I cannot stand many more such victories."  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:13:46 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)

> From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Thanks for the welcome (addendum)
> 
> Oh!  But I failed to add that I don't have a clue what "ObTrav" means...
> probably gonna hit my forehead with the palm of my hand when I'm told!!!!

I assume that it's the Latin preposition "ob", so the phrase means
"toward Traveller", or "for the sake of Traveller".  Maybe it's an
abbreviation for "obiter", "by the way of".

- --Glenn
"I wanted to be a judge, but I didn't have the Latin for it."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:18:21 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Profits on Software

> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> Subject: Profits on Software
> 
> Several of my players got together during a month-long series of jumps and
> decided to write some software.  Interestingly enough, between the three of
> them they had one person with Computer-5, One person with Vargr-3, and one
> person with Linguistics-3.  They decided to write a better Vargr
> translator.  Surprisingly, on three rolls, they came up with two critical
> successes, so I ruled that the wrote a marketable program that was slightly
> better than commonly available commercial ones.  Now they want to sell it
> to someone, and I'm wondering what a reasonable profit would be?  (Note:
> this is set in M0, and they are in the Core sector.)

Which Vargr language?  I think Gvegh is the most common language in the
Vargr Extents by 1100 (and probably was in Milieu 0), but there are of
course at least thousands of Vargr languages.  Of course, Gvegh would
also be the most common Vargr language used in the Imperium.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 00:46:35 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

On 04/13/99 at 04:00 AM,  "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> said:

>Just a suggestion, but would it be possible for posters to indicate
>whether a stated TL is GT or CT

>I only ask because sometimes it is unclear which version people are
>talking about, and as a bystander it can be confusing. YMMV.

This isn't official or anything, but some folks have started using
GTL and TTL to indicate GURPS Tech Level and Traveller Tech Level.

Personally, I think we could just use GTL-9 and TL-10 and be
understood on *this* list, Okay. 

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:26:12 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Fashion

Sword Worlder wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> : My current PBEM character in Roger Barr's game ALWAYS wears a standard
> issue
> : Scout tailored vacc suit (he's very paranoid about a blow out), along
> with
> : the requisite Utility Vest.
>
> Once, when I got sick of players who insisted that their characters
> would wear their Vacc, Ablat and Cloth get up at all times, I had those
> players wear insulated coveralls and rainslicker for our game night.
> They got the point after about twenty minutes. :-)

I've gamed with people like that. How 'bouts comdots for every one.
Nope I was playing the docter so it was the multi function Beeper.

My std ship uniform is t shirt, shorts and flip-flops (or boots if I'm
working in engineering)

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:13:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: GT vs CT TL's

>Just a suggestion, but would it be possible for posters to indicate
>whether a stated TL is GT or CT
>e.g. TL-10 (GT) / TL-13 (CT)
>or    TL-10 (Gurps) / TL-12 (Imp)
...

  Use hexadec for CT >9...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:14:00 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner 

>From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
>Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
...
>I have a vague recollection (and no saved msg to back it up!) of a thread
>about this some time ago on this list...  Unless the thread was a joke
>(and, if so, I was taken in by it!), wasn't Blade Runner the anglicization
>of something or other in German that had something only peripherally to do
>with hunting androids?  Does anybody else out there remember this, or am I
>losing my mind and/or memory?

  That's from K.W. Jeters novel "Blade Runner 2: The Edge of Human" -
licensed from something called The Blade Runner Partnership, apparently.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:08:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Collapsible tanks, etc.

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: drop tanks (long)
...
>>>  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
>>>supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.
>>
>>The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this
>>should be true.  If you can blow them away, you can pull them
>>inside.
>
>	Unless you can drain rigid tanks and blow them away fast enough for
>jump, but you CAN'T suck flexible tanks AND draw them inside (intact)
>fast enough ...
>
>	This one actually makes perfect sense to me ...

  HG/TCS appears to make the distinction that rigid is required for the
quick emptying Jump requires; collapsible tanks fail that test.

  Therefore, what we need are _folding_ external tanks :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:17:18 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Charles Collin wrote:

<snip>

> Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of people to
> "call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a compass.
> If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set of
> coordinates.  

But someone who did, could teach you in about an hour ....

> The problem would only get worse in a society where people
> typically "dial-a-destination" in their grav vehicles.

Ok, fair point, but then if someone could teach you how to read a map in an
hour, how long is it going to take to teach an average citezen of a high tech
world to use a compas and read a map. A day, two perhaps ?

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:28:16 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.

From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
>   HG/TCS appears to make the distinction that rigid is required for the
> quick emptying Jump requires; collapsible tanks fail that test.
> 
>   Therefore, what we need are _folding_ external tanks :)

For some reason.... I just suddenly thought of Megatron and Optimus Prime.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 1999 04:46:37 -0400
From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:

>   HG/TCS appears to make the distinction that rigid is required for the
> quick emptying Jump requires; collapsible tanks fail that test.
> 
>   Therefore, what we need are _folding_ external tanks :)

I imagine something like that; a rectangular tank with 4
accordion-folding walls and a rigid 'bottom' (the bottom is the side
furthest from the hull). Fuel is pumped out of the tanks by the
collapsing process as a motor pulls the 'bottom' to the hull, and by the
time the ship actually jumps, the external tanks are empty and flush
with the hull. These tanks could empty as quickly as the connecting
pipes allow.

The fact that you can extend your empty tanks and make pretty good
spaced armor to defeat HEAT warheads is just an unintended bonus... :)


- -- 
Scott E Kullberg <*>  sekullbe@{mediaone.net|mit.edu} --><--
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #442
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 443



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Planetary Invasion
species and gender (was  Re: Imperial Fashions)
Missing persons - found
Re: Kinunir (was Re: Imperial Fashions)
Re: 20 ton Bridge
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: GT vs CT TL's
re: GT vs CT TL's
re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Profits on Software
Re: Planetary Invasion
re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Profits on Software
Re: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?
Vargr Languages
Re: Planetary Invasion
ME21 Homeworlds for Terran Characters
Re: Profits on Software

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:59:46 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

> Ok, fair point, but then if someone could teach you how to read a map in
an
> hour, how long is it going to take to teach an average citezen of a high
tech
> world to use a compas and read a map. A day, two perhaps ?
>
> Ewan

compass? Where's the digital display? Where's the on/off button? Geez... the
needle won't even move. This thing doesn't work. [toss]

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: 13 Apr 1999 05:05:23 -0400
From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk> writes:

> Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of people to
> > "call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a compass.
> > If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set of
> > coordinates.  
> 
> But someone who did, could teach you in about an hour ....

What if the target designators were entirely automatic units with some
kind of navigation hardware (GPS equivalent, using ground transmitters,
stellar observations, intertial navigation, or Clarkeian technomagic)
and a laser rangefinder? Your spotters only have to point and push the
button, and the target location is computed and stored, or transmitted
immediately to the meson gunners.

Just hand a bunch of them to your resistance cadres before the invasion
begins, or build them into cameras that transmit the picture with the
location, and give *everybody* one.

Real military FOs could have theirs /directly/ linked to the meson
gun. Point-click-kaboom on anything they can see.

Doing battle in a meson-gun environment must be terrifying. At least
with regular artillery you can dig a hole if the first one doesn't get
you; if They have meson guns and decide to target you, you're
dead. (meson screens help, but they can't protect everyone all the time)

- -- 
Scott E Kullberg <*>  sekullbe@{mediaone.net|mit.edu} --><--
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 02:35:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: species and gender (was  Re: Imperial Fashions)

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Imperial Fashions

> This issue, amongst others, is dependant on many issues (religion, morality, 
> etc) that'll probably only end up in huge flame wars.  I'm game, though...  

I don't expect a flame war on this subject.

We were talking about species and gender in the Traveller era.  The
value of the character generation system for drawing inferences about
the population as a whole, even of the types of citizens produced by the
system, is speculative, as you point out:
 
> Careful, the chargen system is not meant to be representative of the general 
> population (i believe this was explicitly stated?), but represents 
> "Travellers" (the wealthy, the nobility, the riff-raff w/o roots, etc).  

Of course, the character generation system is also to be used for
producing at least those NPCs with speaking roles, so it's application
is a little broader than just player-characters.

You stated,

> Your Imperium is far different from teh Imperium of canon (and sectors from 

I'm not sure that's true.  I only said that the Imperial services (i.e.,
Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Imperial bureaucracy, Imperial diplomatic
corps; maybe there are others) foster a culture that doesn't tolerate
species or gender discrimination.  I should clarify (1) that I meant an
internal culture and (2) that I was referring to the post-Civil War
era.  

(1) Within the Navy and the other services, such discrimination is
prohibited by regulations and by the unwritten moral or ethical code of
the service.  This is not altruistic.  The Imperium wants the best and
the brightest to work for the Imperium.  This is one way to get them.  

Note that the Imperium doesn't interfere in local culture (at least not
directly; fostering trade and collecting taxes are of course
interferences).  I wasn't talking about trying to create an
Imperium-wide culture.  Cleon I tried that in some ways.  He at least
tried to establish Imperial laws that interfered directly with local
governance.  This leads to consideration of time:

(2) Discrimination in favor of Solomani over Vilani in early Imperial
times is well documented in canon.  I'm sure that wasn't the only
action, and I'm sure it was endemic in the services.  That changed after
the Civil War for a number of reasons, such as the disruption of the
Solomani clique at court, the desire of the Imperial government for
legitimacy after the embarrassing period of the Emperors of the Flag.

Our discussion for the record:

Glenn:
> > time?  In my Traveller universe, one of the great attractions of
> > Imperial service for women and non-humans in the Imperium is that those
> > services foster a culture in which discrimination on the basis of
> > species, gender, religion, etc. is not tolerated, while that is often
> > not the case in member states.  (The major exception is that social
> > standing can be a major assist in a Navy career.)  

Gary:
> Your Imperium is far different from teh Imperium of canon (and sectors from 
> the thing in M:0), where the credit and commerce is the bottom line.  The 
> only thing off limits is slavery, weapons of mass destruction and piracy.  
> Hell, govts which oppress *everyone* are given the wink and nod and even the 
> support of the Imperial Marines, as long as they pay their taxes and support 
> the nobility (which is hardly a rule by law, but a rule by men, err... 
> sophonts)...

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:19:47 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Missing persons - found

Way back in TML 360 frankie asked,

>Quick question, am I correct in assuming that you're the same Richard
>Fields, sometimes referred >to as Ernie, ex-RNZAF, who introduced my wife
>to Traveller in Wigram back in 1981 or >thereabouts ?

Of course I am Frank.
Hows things.

It's been 49 minutes stearing at this screen.

Since then I've tried to contact you by e-mail but bounced each time.
I've also tried ringing but without success. Please call me, 4770196.



Regards,
Richard Fields
How much Buddha nature has a Vargr?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:43:53 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Kinunir (was Re: Imperial Fashions)

- ----------
> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Kinunir (was Re: Imperial Fashions)
> Date: Monday, 12 April, 1999 6:57 PM
> 
> 
> If you want to try again, go to "Hyphen's Traveller pages" on my site,
and
> click on "CANON PROBLEM 3: The Kinunir Question" at the bottom of the
page.

Thanks.  This is very helpful. I think I now have the basis for my new G:T
campaign.  Not sure which option I'm using, but there's enough info to make
a good extended adventure with almost any of them.

Thanks to everyone on list who contributed to that debate.  Sorry I missed
it.

Tom Schoene
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:45:09 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 20 ton Bridge

At 16:58 12/04/1999 -0500, Charles R Hensley wrote:
>sorry I have not opened High Guard in years, but in FFS1&2 I consider
>the computers as part of the bridge
>
>Mark Logue wrote:
>
>> <<<3 computers ( CP 2.5, CM .4, 3.029m^3) total 9.087m^3>>>
>>
>> You don't need to include the computers.  High Guard did not include
>> them as bart of the "Bridge".

The problem with including the computers in the bridge, is that High Guard
has its own computers which are so big that it is possible to assume that
they include the ship's sensors.

A bridge without computers, probably has the equivalent of two CP1.0
flight computers (since it cannot jump and counts as computer-0).

The bridge designs in T4's Naval Architects Manual were probably 20std.
This was partly due to the full size IMAX screen display and partly 
due to the space needed by the film cameras to track the crew. :-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:10:59 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 09:17 13/04/1999 +0100, Ewan Quibell wrote:
>Charles Collin wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of people to
>> "call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a compass.
>> If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set of
>> coordinates.  
>
>But someone who did, could teach you in about an hour ....

More to the point, if there is some equivalent of GPS working, your
concerned citizen's computer knows exactly where they are.

Then point a laser at the target and the computer works out range and
relative bearing.

Then press the fire button on your joystick and all the lights on the
planet dim as meson megadeath frys that seagull that just broke the
laser beam. :-)

(The high tech GPS would presumably not use easy to kill satelites)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:23:57 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

Along these lines, I don't know if anyone brought this up before but 
it kind of seems that the G:T and Classic Traveller Tech levels are 
off a bit...I don't know have the books in front of me but the early 
tech levels in GURPS 1-4 seem to me off as far as the CT Tech 
levels....G:T lumps 1-3 in one CT Tech level....Maybe its just me.. :)

Mike 

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:00:21 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: GT vs CT TL's

Matthew Bond wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just a suggestion, but would it be possible for posters to indicate
whether a stated TL is GT or CT
e.g. TL-10 (GT) / TL-13 (CT)
or    TL-10 (Gurps) / TL-12 (Imp)
etc.

I only ask because sometimes it is unclear which version people are
talking about, and as a bystander it can be confusing. YMMV.
>>>>>>>>>>>
If "GURPS" or "GT" is in the subject line, assume GT. Otherwise, 
assume CT/MT/TNE/T4/T5. If there is to be a default, let it be the
original rather than GURPS.

Walt Smith
Not yet a convert to GT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:19:34 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Planetary Invasion

Charles Collin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of people to
"call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a compass. 
If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set of
coordinates.  The problem would only get worse in a society where people
typically "dial-a-destination" in their grav vehicles.  Military personel
could do it, of course, but you wouldn't have to "capture every comm unit
on the planet". 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
By email:
"Dear Mr. Colyfy. The enemy headquarters is in the old Multiplex Hotel
at Grav-Cab destination G-7756."
"Thank you Mrs. Rally. We have that location in our planetary database,
we'll have one of our meson guns blow them up immediately."

By observation:
"Beep-boop-deep. Stealth droid 77BB7 reporting by meson comm. The
enemy convoy is at 43 degrees 15.7743 minutes East, 18 degrees
12.8884 minutes South, they are moving at 65 kph directly towards
Checkpoint Gamma Seven. Shutting down, a civilian has mistaken
this unit for a cat. Purrrrrr..."

Heroic incompetent with binoculars and a civ-defense meson comm:
"Nope, a little more to the left." <boom> "No, not your left, MY left!!"
<boom> "Just a little more, maybe the length of a g-ball stadium."
<boom> Good, good, right on their forward base! Uh-oh, someone's 
comin-----" <zapzapzapzap> "urgh" <thud>

Heroic incompetent with a meson comm targeting pack:
Civ-Def: "OK Harry, are you looking through the binoculars at the enemy
barracks? Is it in focus?"
Harry: "Ah-yup."
Civ-Def: "Thanks Harry. We're reading precise position and range from
your targeting pack. Please don't move a muscle for a second while we
lay in the shot. Ready?"
Harry: "Ah-yup."

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:32:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Profits on Software

On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Which Vargr language?  I think Gvegh is the most common language in the
> Vargr Extents by 1100 (and probably was in Milieu 0), but there are of
> course at least thousands of Vargr languages.  Of course, Gvegh would
> also be the most common Vargr language used in the Imperium.

How many planets are there in the Vargr extents?  Let's say 5,000.

It's plausible to me that the typical Vargr planet has about the same
density of distinctive languages as contemporary Earth.  Adjusting
downwards by a factor of (say) 1000 for a lower average population than
Earth, let's say that's 5 languages per planet average.

Maybe around 5,000 Vargr languages in existence at present, not counting
extinct ones.

If you believe good electronic translators are cheap and widespread, then
there's little incentive for linguistic spread, and the number of
languages with stable speaker bases could be much higher, maybe by a
factor of ten or so, with there not being 'major' and 'minor' languages
to the same degree.

Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:35:40 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 12:10 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Then point a laser at the target and the computer works out range and
>relative bearing.
>
>Then press the fire button on your joystick and all the lights on the
>planet dim as meson megadeath frys that seagull that just broke the
>laser beam. :-)

Sure beats Alka-Seltzer...

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:42:05 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Planetary Invasion

On a different track, what does the planet in question have for defenses?
I can see missile sites having the missiles and perhaps the support
infrastructure upgraded, but what about all those older deep meson sites?
Would they just upgrade the old accelerators or would the keep them in
place and build new ones?

I figure a world that has been settled for some time, Mora for example,
must have _lots_ of sites, likely ranging from the earliest TLs that the
deeps sites were availible to the latest TL-15 Zhozapper/Barkerblaster.

Comments?  I can imagine what a world like Terra, Vland, or Capital would
have...

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:43:55 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

> More to the point, if there is some equivalent of GPS working, your
> concerned citizen's computer knows exactly where they are.
> 
> Then point a laser at the target and the computer works out range and
> relative bearing.
> 
> Then press the fire button on your joystick and all the lights on the
> planet dim as meson megadeath frys that seagull that just broke the
> laser beam. :-)

ROTFLMAO ... for about a minet :-)

It's luckey I had only just put the kettle on and not actualy made the coffee,
as otherwise one PowerBook G3 would have died an instant (:-)) death.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:48:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Profits on Software

On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Maybe around 5,000 Vargr languages in existence at present, not counting
> extinct ones.

Yes, but saying that there are 5,000 Vargr languages is a lot different
than saying that if you meet 5,000 Vargr they will likely all speak
different languages. What is of most interest is what languages the
average Traveller will encounter, and that means we are only interested in
the range of languages likely to be spoken by Vargr who are far from
home throughout the Imperium.

That statistic is likely to be more uniform. After all, if you grew up on
a world where there were five different human languages spoken, and you
decided that you wanted to go travelling in the Imperium, you'd really
have to learn Anglic -- the customs inspector doesn't speak Turkish,
sorry.

Granted, the diversity of languages is an intersting issue to consider
when the characters visit a Vargr dominated world, but it isn't the main
issue in my opinion.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:46:57 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?

At 08:19 PM 4/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>31 ships per week, or 1500 ships per year.  15,000 ships per
>decade.  Fifteen thousand ships?  

That seems extreme by ship standards, but is that the right analogy?  I
wonder how many semis are built each year?  (Just the cabs, not the trailers)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Vargr Languages

Sorry for the duplication of this message. I forgot to rename it before
sending it, and since *I* routinely delete messages unread based on the
subject heading...

On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Maybe around 5,000 Vargr languages in existence at present, not counting
> extinct ones.

Yes, but saying that there are 5,000 Vargr languages is a lot different
than saying that if you meet 5,000 Vargr they will likely all speak
different languages. What is of most interest is what languages the
average Traveller will encounter, and that means we are only interested in
the range of languages likely to be spoken by Vargr who are far from
home throughout the Imperium.

That statistic is likely to be more uniform. After all, if you grew up on
a world where there were five different human languages spoken, and you
decided that you wanted to go travelling in the Imperium, you'd really
have to learn Anglic -- the customs inspector doesn't speak Turkish,
sorry.

Granted, the diversity of languages is an intersting issue to consider
when the characters visit a Vargr dominated world, but it isn't the main
issue in my opinion.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:51:17 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Walter Smith wrote:

> By email:
> "Dear Mr. Colyfy. The enemy headquarters is in the old Multiplex Hotel
> at Grav-Cab destination G-7756."
> "Thank you Mrs. Rally. We have that location in our planetary database,
> we'll have one of our meson guns blow them up immediately."

Stop it, your killing me ....
 
> By observation:
> "Beep-boop-deep. Stealth droid 77BB7 reporting by meson comm. The
> enemy convoy is at 43 degrees 15.7743 minutes East, 18 degrees
> 12.8884 minutes South, they are moving at 65 kph directly towards
> Checkpoint Gamma Seven. Shutting down, a civilian has mistaken
> this unit for a cat. Purrrrrr..."

No, now the rest of the office has taken notice ....

> Heroic incompetent with binoculars and a civ-defense meson comm:
> "Nope, a little more to the left." <boom> "No, not your left, MY left!!"
> <boom> "Just a little more, maybe the length of a g-ball stadium."
> <boom> Good, good, right on their forward base! Uh-oh, someone's
> comin-----" <zapzapzapzap> "urgh" <thud>

Now I've got to try and explain ....

> Heroic incompetent with a meson comm targeting pack:
> Civ-Def: "OK Harry, are you looking through the binoculars at the enemy
> barracks? Is it in focus?"
> Harry: "Ah-yup."
> Civ-Def: "Thanks Harry. We're reading precise position and range from
> your targeting pack. Please don't move a muscle for a second while we
> lay in the shot. Ready?"
> Harry: "Ah-yup."

L & L & LOL ....

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:52:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: ME21 Homeworlds for Terran Characters

Fellow Sophonts and Interested Bystanders,

In making those final preparations for my Project: StarRise 
campaign, which kicks off a week from tomorrow (04/21/99), I came 
up with the following character creation information for 
characters designed to start play in 2096AD.  The following worlds 
are available to choose from as homeworlds for characters, as 
determined by OTU canon, my own work, and the ME21 work of both 
Andrew V-M and Rob Eaglestone.  They are presented in the player's 
guide MT planetary code format, as that is the rules system under 
which I will be running the game.  I hope you enjoy!

Terra:  Starport A, Large World, Standard Atmosphere, Wet World, Hi
Pop, Balkanized, Mod Law, Early Stellar Tech

Luna:  Starport B, Small World, Vacuum Atmosphere, Desert World, Mod
Pop, Colony World, Extreme Law, Early Stellar Tech

Mars: Spaceport F (Fine quality, non-jump drive maintenance 
possible), Medium World, Trace Atmosphere, Desert World, Mod Pop,
Colony World, Low Law, Early Stellar Tech

Belt: Spaceport F, Asteroid Belt, Mod Pop, Colonies, Extreme Law,
Early Stellar Tech

Ganymede (Jupiter):  Spaceport G (Good quality, no maintenance), Small
World, Vacuum Atmosphere, Desert World, Low Pop, Colony, High Law,
Early Stellar Tech

Callisto (Jupiter):  Spaceport G, Small World, Vacuum Atmosphere,
Desert World, Mod Pop, Colony, Extreme Law, Early Stellar Tech

Titan (Saturn):  Spaceport G, Small World, Exotic Atmosphere, Desert
World, Low Pop, Colony, High Law, Early Stellar Tech

Maximum Number of Terms based on the existence of these colonies:

Terra, Luna: Unlimited, effectively.  (Technically, Luna maxes at 18
terms, but that's a heck of a lot of mandatory reinlistments.)

Mars: Max of 10 terms. (Normally not possible or likely, but just in 
case.)

Belt: Max of 8 terms.  (Normally not possible or likely, but just in 
case.)

Ganymede, Callisto, and Titan:  Max of 5 terms.

NOTE:  I am still looking for players interested in a Wednesday night 
game in the Austin area.  If you are interested in joining us, please 
contact me via private email.  If you know of anyone in the area who 
might also be interested, please send them my way.  I would 
appreciate it.

Keeping the Dream Alive,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:58:01 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Profits on Software

At 10:18 PM 4/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>> Subject: Profits on Software
>> 
>> Several of my players got together during a month-long series of jumps and
>> decided to write some software.  Interestingly enough, between the three of
>> them they had one person with Computer-5, One person with Vargr-3, and one
>> person with Linguistics-3.  They decided to write a better Vargr
>> translator.  Surprisingly, on three rolls, they came up with two critical
>> successes, so I ruled that the wrote a marketable program that was slightly
>> better than commonly available commercial ones.  Now they want to sell it
>> to someone, and I'm wondering what a reasonable profit would be?  (Note:
>> this is set in M0, and they are in the Core sector.)
>
>Which Vargr language?  I think Gvegh is the most common language in the
>Vargr Extents by 1100 (and probably was in Milieu 0), but there are of
>course at least thousands of Vargr languages.  Of course, Gvegh would
>also be the most common Vargr language used in the Imperium.

Yes, it was Gvegh



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #443
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 444



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Blade Runner
ME21 Character Creation Question
RE: Vargr Languages
RE: Profits on Software
Naval rank?
Re: Technology Marches On...
Re: Naval rank?
Blade Runner FAQ
Re: Far Trader has arrived!
OT: Antimatter and more "conventional" fusion propulsion
Re: Liberty Ships
GTL to TL
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: GTL to TL
Re: Far Trader has arrived!
Re: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?
OT:  Two interesting sites
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
Re: Planetary Invasion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:09:33 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner

>  That's from K.W. Jeters novel "Blade Runner 2: The Edge of Human" -
>licensed from something called The Blade Runner Partnership, apparently.
>
>        Steven Hudson

The Movie was (vaguely) based on Phillip K Dicks great book "Do anderoids
dream of electric sheep". The filmguys thought the title was a bit hard to
swallow so they borrowed the title from a book by William Borroughs. It (I
think) was about a future where medicine was outlawed and doctors smuggling
medical supplies were called "blade runners".

Great authors all of them (Dick, Borroughs and Jeter).


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:09:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: ME21 Character Creation Question

Greetings, All,

I have a question regarding the generation of Terran characters under 
ME21.  I'm using the MT rules system, and was wondering:

Should I have my PCs create characters using the standard character 
creation system or using the Solomani system under MT's AM2: 
Solomani and Aslan?

The Solomani character creation system encompasses a political 
situation similar to how I view the United Nations at the time of 
First Contact.  However, there are significant differences also.  
Thus, I turn to my more learned colleagues on this list and ask, what 
are your thoughts on this matter?

Thanks in advance for your input, and I look forward to your replies.

Keeping the Dream Alive,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:18:06 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Vargr Languages

But if you start down the path of different languages then you've got to go
with all the races.  I'd figure that each race would come up with a dominant
or common language that any spacefacing planet would know.  I mean, I'm sure
there are just as many different languages for Viliani or Aslan.  Different
planets might develop dialects but would probably know a common tongue to
communicate. Of course a translator written for generic languages will be
slightly inaccurate. Look at present, let's take a Spanish to English
translator.  Is it for Queen's English or American English.  They both would
work but some of the points may come across different.  
		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Brannon W. Boren [mailto:brannonb@animal.blarg.net]
		Sent:	Tuesday, April 13, 1999 10:51 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Vargr Languages


		Sorry for the duplication of this message. I forgot to
rename it before
		sending it, and since *I* routinely delete messages unread
based on the
		subject heading...

		On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

		> Maybe around 5,000 Vargr languages in existence at
present, not counting
		> extinct ones.

		Yes, but saying that there are 5,000 Vargr languages is a
lot different
		than saying that if you meet 5,000 Vargr they will likely
all speak
		different languages. What is of most interest is what
languages the
		average Traveller will encounter, and that means we are only
interested in
		the range of languages likely to be spoken by Vargr who are
far from
		home throughout the Imperium.

		That statistic is likely to be more uniform. After all, if
you grew up on
		a world where there were five different human languages
spoken, and you
		decided that you wanted to go travelling in the Imperium,
you'd really
		have to learn Anglic -- the customs inspector doesn't speak
Turkish,
		sorry.

		Granted, the diversity of languages is an intersting issue
to consider
		when the characters visit a Vargr dominated world, but it
isn't the main
		issue in my opinion.

		Brannon

		--
		"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
		will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

		http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
		

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:30:12 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Profits on Software

Were each of these planets populated from an existing planet or did every
planet develop Vargr independently? True, if you said that the homeworld had
say 5 different languages.  But wouldn't there be a common or dominant
language?  In order for them to work aboard a ship, some sort of common
communication would develop.  Now if these are the ones exploring space,
then it would reason that that would become a common language.  The next
step is colonization of planets.  Even assuming you took a group that spoke
one of the other languages and settled them on the planet, logic would
dictate they also learned the common space tongue, because who knows if a
trader on the next supply trip speaks your dialect.  I'm sure many of the
traders would learn local languages as well.  So it doesn't seem like each
planet would have 5 entirely different languages.  More than likely, they
would be different dialects.  Perhaps some of the back water planets that
are not visited that often may have evolved their languages into something
similar but still distinctly different.   

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Kenji Schwarz [mailto:schwarz@fas.harvard.edu]
		Sent:	Tuesday, April 13, 1999 10:32 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: Profits on Software



		On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

		> Which Vargr language?  I think Gvegh is the most common
language in the
		> Vargr Extents by 1100 (and probably was in Milieu 0), but
there are of
		> course at least thousands of Vargr languages.  Of course,
Gvegh would
		> also be the most common Vargr language used in the
Imperium.

		How many planets are there in the Vargr extents?  Let's say
5,000.

		It's plausible to me that the typical Vargr planet has about
the same
		density of distinctive languages as contemporary Earth.
Adjusting
		downwards by a factor of (say) 1000 for a lower average
population than
		Earth, let's say that's 5 languages per planet average.

		Maybe around 5,000 Vargr languages in existence at present,
not counting
		extinct ones.

		If you believe good electronic translators are cheap and
widespread, then
		there's little incentive for linguistic spread, and the
number of
		languages with stable speaker bases could be much higher,
maybe by a
		factor of ten or so, with there not being 'major' and
'minor' languages
		to the same degree.

		Kenji

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:46:17 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Naval rank?

Hello there: My PCs are escorting an Aslan Ihatei ship through the marches
together with a couple of Navy ships. I'm detailing the crews of the ships
(Gazelle close escort and Lisiani fleet escort) and my question to any with
a Navy background:

What ranks shouls I give the various people aboard the ships? All I "know"
is that you're supposedly an officer whenever you command a ship (this seem
to be the case for airforce pilots in the realworld as well).

I'm well aware that there probably are no strict rules here

(cybe root of the ships displacement x the number of tatoos of the crew
divided by the number of pornographic holos hidden in the ratings lockers =
the number of stars for the commander ;-)

but some general guidelines would be helpful. While I'am at it lets say I
want to know the ranks of the top crew on an Azhanti as well.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:48:30 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On...

>Once again ABC has posted some interesting stories on
>new tech.
>
>Samsung has produced a full-function Code Division
>Multiple Access wrist cell phone that, batteries
>included, weighs 50 grams (about 1.75 oz.), has 60
>hours of standby time and 90 minutes of call time.
>CDMA features include a phone directory, microphone,
>vibration alert and, of course, voice-actuated dialing.
>
>That's right, folks. A *wrist* phone. Can you say
>"Dick Tracy"?
>
>The product will ship this month.

Without a TV-creen?


Naaah!


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:53:16 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

check out High guard or an almanac for naval ranks..the captain would 
be captain :) and the exec officer would be a commander...then lt 
commander...Lt, Lt jr grade and ensign :)
I think that's right...I defer to those with military experience...

Mike




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:03:12 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Blade Runner FAQ

Go do a search for the Blade Runner FAQ.  It'll attempt to answer any
question you have on Blade Runner.  "Fascinating" to quote another Milieu's
character....

Best,
Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:10:31 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader has arrived!

In US dollars that's $26.70, which is $5.75 USD more than I paid for my
copy.  Not TOOOO bad, but living in the US has it's advantages ;)

Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact"





>Dear Folks -
>
>For the info of anyone in Canberra, Australia, _Far Trader_ has just lobbed
>at the Games Cupboard, Woden (my FLGS ;-).
>
>Cost is AU$41.95 (Ouch! Airfreight plus currency conversion are killers!
>This'll go on layby for sure...)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
>http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
>"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 16:26:39 +0100
From: greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com
Subject: OT: Antimatter and more "conventional" fusion propulsion

Just received this from NASA.

Makes for interesting reading.

- ----------

NASA Space Science News for April 13, 1999

Reaching for the stars:  At the 1999 Advanced Propulsion Research Workshop,
antimatter and fusion take center stage as possible rocket fuels for future
spacecraft.  FULL STORY at 
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop12apr99_1.htm

- ----------



- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Greg Aldridge      | "Since light travels faster than sound, isn't
   Software Engineer,   | that why some people appear bright until you
   EASAMS Engineering   |              hear them speak?"
        Systems         |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Email: Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com    Tel: 01245 353221 x4916
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:05:30 -0500
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconnaughton@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Liberty Ships

- -----Original Message----- snip
Could someone please let me know if they have an
existing design for a "Liberty Ship" al a Traveller.
I've a spot in my campaign for which a Liberty Ship
would be perfect.

Please advise 
Thanks
Pat Connaughton
pconnaughton@stlnet.com
"It's the only game in town"
ICQ Member # 2535086

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:36:44 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: GTL to TL

Here is a list of Traveller TL's compared to GURPS from G:T 
Traveller Tech Level      GURPS Tech Level
0                               1-3
1                                4
2                                5
3                                5
4                                5
5                                6
6                                6
7                                7
8                                8
9                                9
10                               9
11                               9
12                              10
13                              10
14                              11
15                              12
16                              13

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:55:50 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

> Along these lines, I don't know if anyone brought this up before but 
> it kind of seems that the G:T and Classic Traveller Tech levels are 
> off a bit...I don't know have the books in front of me but the early 
> tech levels in GURPS 1-4 seem to me off as far as the CT Tech 
> levels....G:T lumps 1-3 in one CT Tech level....Maybe its just me.. :)
> 
> Mike 


See page 107 of G:T

TL to GTL
 0  - 1 to 3
 1  - 4
 2  - 5
 3  - 5
 4  - 5
 5  - 6
 6  - 6
 7 - 7 
 8  - 8
 9  - 9
10 - 9
11 - 9
12 - 10
13 - 10
14 - 11
15 - 12
16 - 13

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:57:07 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: GTL to TL

You just beat me to it...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  

From: jcarlino <jcarlino@home.com>
> Here is a list of Traveller TL's compared to GURPS from G:T 
> Traveller Tech Level      GURPS Tech Level
> 0                               1-3
> 1                                4

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:00:41 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Far Trader has arrived!

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> In US dollars that's $26.70, which is $5.75 USD more than I paid for my
> copy.  Not TOOOO bad, but living in the US has it's advantages ;)

You mean you didn't get one for nothing ?

Poor showing there by SJG ....

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:06:12 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Well then, how much time REALLY does it take to build a starship?

Juliean Galak wrote:

>>31 ships per week, or 1500 ships per year.  15,000 ships per
>>decade.  Fifteen thousand ships?
>
>That seems extreme by ship standards, but is that the right analogy?  I

>wonder how many semis are built each year?  (Just the cabs, not the
>trailers)
>

~80 per day Denton TX Peterbilt plant, don't know about other plants or
manufacturers

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:08:02 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: OT:  Two interesting sites

This is off topic, but it is interesting...Imagine a ship almost a mile long...

http://www.freedomship.com

...Or, a floating city...

http://www.oceania.org

Both have some excellent graphics that might be able to help someone
running a water based adventure.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:50:51 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

Mark Watson wrote:

>Charles may be qualified as a helicopter pilot, but his job in the navy was in 
>charge of a (relatively small) ship.

It's fairly common for Fleet Air Arm pilots to transfer to ship commands
upon reaching a certain rank. After all, flying a helo is a job for a
subbie or a lieutenant. Driving a warship is a commander or captain.

ObTrav: MT and `cross trained in another branch'.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:02:34 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Charles Collin wrote:

>Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of people to
>"call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a compass. 
>If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set of
>coordinates.  The problem would only get worse in a society where people
>typically "dial-a-destination" in their grav vehicles.  Military personel
>could do it, of course, but you wouldn't have to "capture every comm unit
>on the planet". 
>

Well, using no more than TL9 technology:

i. Get a precisely geolocated reference point
(i.e. the dot on the floor in your guerilla cave system is at xx deg
xx'xx" North, yy deg yy'yy" East, altitude xxx m ASL.)

ii. Carrying a portable inertial nav box, get to a point overlooking the
target. Read off the display - you now know precisely where you are
standing.

iii. Using a hand laser rangefinder with an integral flux-gate compass,
measure the precise range and bearing to the target (just point it at
the target and press the button). Add this vector onto your location
from (ii) - you now know precisely where the target it.

iv. Call for fire.

v. Retire.

At TL12, all this gear mentioned in (ii) and (iii) will fit in a man
portable, concealable box.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:48:13 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Walter Smith wrote:

>Matt,
>
>Kill every civilian who knows, even in general, where your portable starport
>is. 

This is, by current definitions, a war crime. YTU may vary.

>Make sure you have shut down the entire planetary communication
>grid, and find a way to confiscate every transmitter that's in the hands
>of the populace. Find some way to locate and confiscate the meson
>communicators that have been hidden away for use by the resistance
>after a "successful" invasion.

Assuming a reasonable tech level, most cabled comms will have been
replaced by either satellite or meson comms. It's easy to turn the
former off...

>There will be deep meson sites and meson submersibles that have no
>intention of firing at your fleet. They're going to wait for you to set up
>housekeeping, and snipe at you - one or two shots a week - for as long
>as you are on the planet. Anything you have that doesn't move is going
>to explode pretty soon. 

Today, TL8, it's hard to detect a submersible from space. By TL15?
Should be a doddle.

Of course, since your goal was to take population centres, in a couple
of weeks you can start to make your landings near or in occupied cities.
See how willing the defenders are to take out their own cities to stop
you. (Yes, I know it happened in Independence Day, but that was (a) the
USA; and (b) annihilation, not invasion).

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:36:32 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

>> From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>> (a) Slow but sure.
>>  a1. Jump insystem. Fly to the Gas Giant, and establish space supremecy 
>>      over it. Call in the rest of the fleet.
>>  a2. Move to the mainworld. Defeat anything else in space.
>>  a3. Reduce the planetary defences (Deep mesons et al). This may take
>>      some general destruction of surface support facilities like 
>>      sensors.
>>  a4. Beat off any fleets that are sent in the meantime.
>
>Small technical problem with a1. "The Gas Giant." Most systems have 
>more than one. The solar system has four. If a system is being 
>attacked, any decent strategist would figure out that the attackers 
>had occupied the "usual" one, so reinforcements might simply come and 
>secure another one... taking into account orbits, it's improbable 
>that a single gas giant would *always* be the closest one to the 
>mainworld, so it is even unclear if there is always a single gas 
>giant presenting an strategical advantage to take over a world.

It's going to be system dependent - since (by the MT system generation
rules) GGs tend to be in fairly distant orbits (and thus have large
rotational periods) you would want the one nearest the mainworld at the
time you're invading. It's even better if the mainworld happens to be a
satellite of one of the GGs.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:52:26 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Sub-based meson guns are _really_ nasty things to go up against. If you
>just shoot and scoot, it'll be next to impossible to target you, ever.
>You have the advantage of knowing the ground like, well, your own
>backyard.
>
>Hmm...methinks I'll have to get into the MG design rules and break out
>Andy's FFS2 spreadsheet...gotta design some variants on MG subs.
>
>On a mostly water world, I think those things would rule, period. You
>wouldn't want to even think about invading.

I wouldn't worry. By TL15, space-based detection of submarines is not
going to be a problem.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:03:37 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Shawn Campbell wrote:

>compass? Where's the digital display? Where's the on/off button? Geez... the
>needle won't even move. This thing doesn't work. [toss]

Flux-gate compass. Digital display. on-off switch.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #444
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 445



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)
Re: OT:  Two interesting sites
Re: GTL to TL
Re: Far Trader has arrived!
Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.
Subs and Sensors (was Re: World Conquest)
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Far Trader has arrived!
Re: Astrogators
Re: Black Globes
re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*
Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #419
Re: Garbage
Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)
Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather)
re: OT: Two Interesting Sites
Re: OT: Dark Conspiracy
Re: Interstellar Trade, from the Milieu Zero Book
[none]
Re: The Matrix (no spoilers)
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:39:37 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Airships (was re: Drop Tanks and Canon)

Jeffrey Rowse wrote:

>Certain (ie UK & USA) are investigating the use of airships for long-range
>maritime recon - long-range as in "We can sit up here for days" rather than
>"What's happening half-way around the globe?"... they use RPV's for that.

Nah, they're not that great for the job. Sure, they can stay on station
for a long time. But traditional airships don't go high enough (to use
really long range radars); are excessively vulnerable (slow moving); and
can't move fast enough to prosecute a target at a remote datum. In fact,
since airships are averse to the wind, you might not be able to move in
a certain direction at all...

>Remember the blimp in the Bond flick?  It's called Skyship 600, and is the
>elder sib of one the USNavy was playing with a few years ago.

The USN retired all it's lighter than air craft a few years ago.

>ObTrav:  If you fill a bag with hot air, does it show on radar?

Depends on the bag.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:31:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: OT:  Two interesting sites

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> This is off topic, but it is interesting...Imagine a ship almost a mile long...
> 
> http://www.freedomship.com

Don't think I've ever seen a ship sponsored by a real estate company
before...

I _really_ don't want to think about what would happen to this thing
were it hit by a sizeable storm.

It'd make an interesting simulation project for someone...


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:34:04 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GTL to TL

My point was more that to have the Bronze age to the Middle Ages under 
one TL was incorrect as far as the Classic/Mega traveller tech levels 
are concerned....The GT tech levels...IMHO..don't match up to the 
descriptions in CT...
But like I said I could be way off base...
Mike



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:36:07 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader has arrived!

I'm supposed to be getting one, but I don't know when.  I just couldn't wait
though :)  Maybe I'll sign the royalty copy and give it Mom for putting up
with my Traveller interests over the years ;)

Jesse

>You mean you didn't get one for nothing ?
>
>Poor showing there by SJG ....
>
>Ewan
>--
>
>   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
>   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
>   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
>   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
>                                      Rode the six hundred.
>   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson
>
>   #include<stddisclaimer.h>
>
>   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:43:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.

>From: Scott E Kullberg <sekullbe@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.
...
>I imagine something like that; a rectangular tank with 4
>accordion-folding walls and a rigid 'bottom' (the bottom is the side
>furthest from the hull). Fuel is pumped out of the tanks by the
>collapsing process as a motor pulls the 'bottom' to the hull, and by the
>time the ship actually jumps, the external tanks are empty and flush
>with the hull. These tanks could empty as quickly as the connecting
>pipes allow.

  Didn't the Trimkhana Brilliance (sp?) blow up due to a tankage error?
 "Captain, something just went <sproing>?"
        "Abandon ship!..."  :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:50:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Subs and Sensors (was Re: World Conquest)

> From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
> I wouldn't worry. By TL15, space-based detection of submarines is not
> going to be a problem.

Is that TL15 space-based detection of a TL15 stealth sub?  It would 
seem to me that recon improvements at each TL would be met by 
quasi-effective counter-measures at that same TL.  Just my opinion, 
though.  Perhaps the counter-measures would not be so much 
technological in nature as procedural, taking advantage of naturally 
occurring phenomenon to mask or hide the sub from detection.  
Otherwise, submarines would not be used for the same purposes at TL15 
as they are at our current TL.

> Aetherem Vincere

Okay, I've been dying to ask.  What does this phrase mean, and where
did it originate?  It appears to be a closing phrase of some kind,
but I can't place it.  (I hope I'm not embarrassing myself if it is
part of your name or something.  :) 

Thanks for your time,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:00:08 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:46:17 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Naval rank?
> 
> What ranks should I give the various people aboard the ships? All I
"know"
> is that you're supposedly an officer whenever you command a ship
> but some general guidelines would be helpful. While I'm at it lets say I
> want to know the ranks of the top crew on an Azhanti as well.

Capital ships (battleships, carriers and cruisers) should be commanded by
Captains or Commanders, depending on size. There may be flag officers
aboard, especially battleships, but they command the squadron or fleet, not
the ship herself. A Carrier Fighter Wing CO probably has the same rank as
the Carrier CO.

Escorts are probably commanded by Commanders or Lieutenant Commanders. 

Auxiliaries may be commanded by officers of any rank (down to Warrant
Officer, if you have those), depending on size and mission. The CO of a
ship as small as a Gazelle should be a Lieutenant at best.

The Executive Officer on any ship should be one rank lower than the CO.
Department heads (engineering,  weapons, etc.) could be the same rank as
the XO or one rank lower. On the Gazelle, some departments may be led by
chief petty officers rather than commissioned officers.

I think there are canonical answers for some of these (Traders and Gunboats
for the Gazelle, AHL, and Imperial Squadrons come to mind). If someone
would like to correct me, feel free.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:05:27 -0400
From: steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader has arrived!

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> I'm supposed to be getting one, but I don't know when.  I just couldn't wait
> though :)  Maybe I'll sign the royalty copy and give it Mom for putting up
> with my Traveller interests over the years ;)

Jesse, if you were supposed to get one and didn't, talk to Loren.
The other authors and myself got ours directly from the printer
very early on.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:05:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Astrogators

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>TML:35 Keyboards:0  the rout contines...

There's a liquid proof keyboard in the Fetish section of the latest Wired.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:03:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes

Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>         BG's block *every thing*.  They are a 100%
>> energy sink...  that
>> energy is shunted into capacitors which need to be
>> bled off...  <snip>
>Interesting. How much tonnage do these take up?

Quickest way to find out is to check the one in the Kinunir class scrapped
on the stocks at General's Shipyards on Regina

You just have to board the ship, measure out the space that the mounting
takes, and avoid the pouncer using the ship as a lair.

<weg>

As described in adventure 1, The kinunir.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:12:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE*

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>But foolishly, I had a massive multiple hardware failure here that took me
>awhile to figure out and fix.  *NOT FUN*.  But I'm back now.
>
>Who missed me??

Well, now you've proved that you weren't Clif's alter-ego....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:16:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:

>I started playing back in late 77 when Traveller *was* the 3 LBB's
>and there wasn't anything except a *very* general framework.  I
>enjoyed all the suppliments and JOTAS articles that built up the
>Imperium, but I never set my games in what became the OTU.  As CT
>turned into MT it got much harder to use anything from GDW without
>also using their universe..at least for me.  I don't oppose having
>an OTU, but I still implore Marc, Loren and the BITS folks to make
>the books them write general enough so, as Michel put it, "it
>wouldn't choke me."

Well, the BITS stuff can't get much more generic (with the exception of TLWH).

Dom

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:13:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #419

Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Just happended to have Westwood's Blade Runner game handy on my
>computer desk. It is Voigt-Kampff with an extra f. Good game by the way.

Nah... lousy game. *not available for MacOS*.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:29:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage

 Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:
>40 years ago...

1959....

>You didn't have the materials to make the wings or the turbine blades.

Al alloy.

>You couldn't even make the fabrics in the seats or the plastics
>in the stowage bins.

Probably.

>You didn't have the computer tech to design the airframe or the
>wind tunnels to test it.

Emperical tests - are you sure there were no wind tunnels in 59?

>You didn't have the machine tools to make the components.

Modern blades are single crystals grown in a mould to gain cooling passages
IIRC.

>I doubt you could even make 1% of a modern airliner using purely
>1950's tech.

Q. (and serious).

Did the Whittle Engine (later graciously donated to the US by the UK gov)
have blades? In which case there were aircraft with jets flying in 1945...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:30:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Restraining Orders (Was: re: re Pushing the Limits)

Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
>>        Hmmm...  take a glance at my TNEC milieu and tell me if I am
>>far enough left of OTU to qualify as Heretical Journeyman....  =)
>
>I have, and you are. ;->
>
>Very nicely done, btw.

Hmm... does this imply that there's a structure to heresy?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:40:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure (was Re: Grandfather)

 steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>> > >Pop quiz: Name your top three favorite official* Traveller
>> > >adventures, and why.
>
>Wow, these all sound great.  And considering the fact that I never played or
>reffed *any* of the published adventures, and own none of them, if any of
>you feel like starting a Classic Trav Adventures PBEM, I'm virgin fodder for
>these.

Twilight's Peak (even with the Coincidences) as a meta campaign, not as an
individual adventure..

1. Arrival Vengeance (especially when they meet Strephon and realise the
Imperium is truly dead)
2. The Traveller Adventure
3. Death Station

Honourable mentions

Valentine's Rose (M0)
Hard Time's campaign
The Flaming Eye

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:24:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: OT: Two Interesting Sites

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is off topic, but it is interesting...Imagine a ship almost a mile long...

http://www.freedomship.com

..Or, a floating city...

http://www.oceania.org

Both have some excellent graphics that might be able to help someone
running a water based adventure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very nice. I get such interesting URL's from this newsgroup.

While technically OT, I find such background material very useful to
SF in general and Traveller in particular. Being a fan of Water Worlds
just makes me appreciate the two even more.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:06:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Dark Conspiracy

SunTsi@aol.com writes:

>dom asked:
><I just picked up Dark Conspiracy 2nd ed and noticed something on the cover
><of the player's book. Beside the 3rd step down, by the woman's feet, is the
><graffitti 'GDW Lives'.
><
><Is this there on the original?
>
>...yepp, it was ...just looked it up...

Hmm. That's one possible conspiracy lightened. <grin>

Thanks,

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:48:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade, from the Milieu Zero Book

 steve daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:

>> Here's what they say: a world is ready to become a
>> "stable part of the inner community" (read: fully
>> priveleged member world of the Imperium) when its
>> trade "approaches or exceeds millions of tons per year".
>> 1,000,000 tons per year is, roughly, 20,000 tons per
>> week.
>[snip]
>> Anyone got any opinions here?
>
>Ignore it and use Far Trader.  :-)

Ton mass, not Ton displacement?

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:57:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

Charles writes:

>Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
>targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub fires to
>often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.

Assumes only 1 static meson site.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:02:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (no spoilers)

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

>Maybe the "dark and poorly explained" is only a problem for US audiences? I
>mean the director has said, even of the voice-over version, "the French
>have no difficulty in picking it up" [ie. the possibility of Deckard being
>a replicant].

Well, another example would be the Bond movie 'Licence to Kill' which was
originally titled 'Licence Revoked' before focus group work(?) in the US
suggested that 'revoked' was not understood...

Was the French version subtitled or dubbed? ;)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:13:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

"Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> wrote:

>How about we assume the TL is normal Traveller, unless otherwise stated as
>G:T.

Sounds correct to me. TL is CT, MT, TNE and T4 GTL is GURPS Trav. GURPS is
an official varient with a limited TL resolution so we use TL in non-GURPS
terms.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:19:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Isn't it canon that the Vargr nuked a Vilani world? If so, the earlier post
about Corridor collapsing so quickly because they don't use weapons of MD
is wrong , especially as Vilani rarely forget...

Could have more to do with the fleet pulling out...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:41:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> >But foolishly, I had a massive multiple hardware failure here that took me
> >awhile to figure out and fix.  *NOT FUN*.  But I'm back now.
> >
> >Who missed me??
> 
> Well, now you've proved that you weren't Clif's alter-ego....

<evil glare>

*THANKS*

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:04:17 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

In a message dated 4/13/99 8:59:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< check out High guard or an almanac for naval ranks..the captain would 
 be captain :) and the exec officer would be a commander...then lt 
 commander...Lt, Lt jr grade and ensign :)
 I think that's right...I defer to those with military experience... >>

that's good, but the navy muddies up the waters a bit. They don't always 
asign a full captain to a ship. A smaller ship will have a commanding officer 
of a lower rank. Take the Gazelle for an example. She only has a crew of 
10-12 (depending on which set of rules you use). I would make the "skipper" a 
Lt. , and the other 2-3 officers either Lt. jgs. (sub Lts. to the non yanks 
on the list...) or ensigns. The enlisted crew would be one senior NCO (petty 
officer; prob. a chief PO), and the rest would be jr. PO's and 
ratings...Therefore it's possible to have a Lt. or even an ensign as a 
"Captain" of a vessel, and a Captain assigned to a staff postion with no 
command authority.

I would give the skipper of the Lisani a rank of anywhere from Lt. Commander 
up to Captain, depending on the size of the ship and crew. I use a crew size 
of at least 400-500 to require to CO to be a Captain, as the equiv. land rank 
is Colonel, and he/she commands at LEAST a battalion sized billet...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:11:17 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

isn't there a reference in BtC to Vargar genocide of a whole world in 
the Marches...Not sure if NBC weapons were used though...

Mike




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #445
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 446



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval rank?
Re: Garbage
Re: Naval rank?
Re: 
Re: species and gender (was  Re: Imperial Fashions)
CIN entry 11/II/1203
OT:  Two interesting sites
Re: World Conquest
Re: Two interesting sites
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated
Re: Planetary Invasion
Subs and Calling Meson Fire
Vargr genocide
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Subs and Calling Meson Fire
Travellerizing S:AAB Using Silent Death
Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:25:57 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Anders Backman wrote:

>Hello there: My PCs are escorting an Aslan Ihatei ship through the
marches
>together with a couple of Navy ships. I'm detailing the crews of the
ships
>(Gazelle close escort and Lisiani fleet escort) and my question to any
with
>a Navy background:
>
>What ranks shouls I give the various people aboard the ships? All I
"know"
>is that you're supposedly an officer whenever you command a ship (this
seem
>to be the case for airforce pilots in the realworld as well).
>

Based on the US Navy
ship                   CO
Frigate               O4-O5 (Lt. Commander-Commander)
Destroyer           O5-O6 (Commander-Captain)
Cruiser               O6 (Captain)
Capital Ship        O7 (Commodore)
  (BB, Carrier)         (not actually used in the US Navy except in time
of war)

XO CO grade -1

for the Gazelle, I would say O3-O4 for the CO

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:34:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Garbage

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Garbage
...
>Q. (and serious).
>
>Did the Whittle Engine (later graciously donated to the US by the UK gov)
>have blades? In which case there were aircraft with jets flying in 1945...

  ISTR that those units were turbofans - there's a good short primer on jet
engine development in last springs (IIRC) JMH - "The Industrial History of
Strategy" basically aircraft tech/manufacturing, and their impacts ~WW II.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:39:36 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Michael McKeown wrote:

>check out High guard or an almanac for naval ranks..the captain would
>be captain :) and the exec officer would be a commander...then lt
>commander...Lt, Lt jr grade and ensign :)
>I think that's right...I defer to those with military experience...

Captain is both a rank and a position. The position is also called CO
(Commanding Officer).  They are equal on Destroyers (sometimes a
commander is CO) through Capital ships (sometimes a Commodor is CO).
The CO is addressed as Captain no matter what his rank is when aboard
ship.

The US Navy does not use Commodore except in time of war so some
officers are held back (remain at the rank of Captain) while others are
promoted past Commodore.  The squadron commander for the Destroyer
Squadron I was with was a Captain by rank but was addresses as
Commodore, supposably had in time of war had automatic promotion to
Commodore.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:51:24 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 

At 06:57 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles writes:
>
>>Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
>>targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub fires to
>>often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.
>
>Assumes only 1 static meson site.
>

No, once one meson gun has fired 3 times it can be triangulated on IF the
targeted site can be examined.  This would not apply for mobile targets as
the angle of the attack could nt be easily determined but with things like
building it should be doable after three shot per weapon.

If you have 12 meson site then after at most 25 shots one of those sites
will be locatable.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:04:39 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: species and gender (was  Re: Imperial Fashions)

> >This issue, amongst others, is dependant on many issues (religion, 
morality, 
> > etc) that'll probably only end up in huge flame wars.  I'm game, 
though...  
> 
> I don't expect a flame war on this subject.

Me neither, but some people are really sensitive. ;-)

> > Careful, the chargen system is not meant to be representative of the 
general 
> > population (i believe this was explicitly stated?), but represents 
> > "Travellers" (the wealthy, the nobility, the riff-raff w/o roots, etc).  
> 
> Of course, the character generation system is also to be used for
> producing at least those NPCs with speaking roles, so it's application
> is a little broader than just player-characters.

IMO, it's really just flexed over there.  The NPC templates in TNE are more 
appropriate IMO.  Not the width of experience or skill of a PC.  Now 
"detailed NPCs" are basically just PCs controlled by the ref.  TNE's, btw, is 
IMO the most capable of populace construction w/ mundane jobs (construction 
worker, etc), in addition to the military and adventuring types.

> > Your Imperium is far different from teh Imperium of canon (and sectors 
from 

I'm not saying that's bad or anything, just that it doesn't fit w/ the way 
the Imperium has been described IMO (especially for M:0).
 
> I'm not sure that's true.  I only said that the Imperial services (i.e.,
> Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Imperial bureaucracy, Imperial diplomatic
> corps; maybe there are others) foster a culture that doesn't tolerate
> species or gender discrimination.  I should clarify (1) that I meant an
> internal culture and (2) that I was referring to the post-Civil War
> era.  

We know there's the major/minor race thing.  Even the hick thing w/ the 
attitude given towards the Marches by the Core (it's mentioned in RSB,though 
I'm not sure if it is elsewhere).  

> (1) Within the Navy and the other services, such discrimination is
> prohibited by regulations and by the unwritten moral or ethical code of
> the service.  This is not altruistic.  The Imperium wants the best and
> the brightest to work for the Imperium.  This is one way to get them.  

I can see that, but there's supposed to be some pretty severe discipline and 
cautions against mutiny, etc that are more reminiscent of the age of sail 
rather than modern naval warships (in particular, the gazelle).  It's almost 
like the spacehands are conscripts.  Not that I think that should be, or 
necessarily is, the case but that's the feel I get.

> Your Imperium is far different from teh Imperium of canon (and sectors from 
> the thing in M:0), where the credit and commerce is the bottom line.  The 
> only thing off limits is slavery, weapons of mass destruction and piracy.  
> Hell, govts which oppress *everyone* are given the wink and nod and even 
the 
> support of the Imperial Marines, as long as they pay their taxes and 
support 
> the nobility (which is hardly a rule by law, but a rule by men, err... 
> sophonts)...

I'd substitute *seems* for *is* in the first line, but the rest of it seems 
pretty much straight on.  IMO.  YMMV.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:04:41 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: CIN entry 11/II/1203

COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: PUSH, AUTHORITY CIN/AUBAINE 
RCES YARD AUBAINE (0738/AUBAINE, A78A884-C), 11/II/1203
KEYWORDS: HIVE FEDERATION, TRADE ROUTE, SO SKIRE SUBSECTOR, SITAH, STEPPING 
STONE

	The Hive Federation Ambassador to the Reformation Coalition announced 
that, in conjuction with approval by an Assembly subcommitee, that the Hive 
Federation is establishing a permanent J3 trade route connecting the 
Reformation Coalition with what has become known as the Sitah "stepping 
stone" connecting the Reformation Coalition with the Hiver Federation.  Not 
truly organized on an interstellar level, the subsector has benefited from 
Hiver technology and uplift efforts and the worlds of region trade amongst 
themselves.
	The subsector (Subsector P of Old Expanses Sector) has long 
experienced Hiver efforts and is the site for many so called Hiver 
"Temporary" Bases.  Hiver J3 merchant ships have previously visited the 
Reformation in semi-regular convoys, under protection of ships of the 
Federation Navy.
	In an effort to encourage participation on the trade route by the 
Reformation Coalition, the Federation Ambassador announced that the Hive 
Federation would subsidize Jump 3 merchant designs by Aubaine's Standard 
Astrotronics and KeeEEka Strongwall shipyards.
	A junior Oriflammen Assembly representative has derided the offer as 
being "useless to Oriflamme" and "another manipulation to keep Aubaine in 
ascendance in their Client State."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:14:22 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: OT:  Two interesting sites

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> Subject: OT:  Two interesting sites
> 
> This is off topic, but it is interesting...Imagine a ship almost a mile
> long...

> ...Or, a floating city...

Hmm.. I've only looked at Freedom Ship so far.  Would this be better in
a Traveller campaign or Twilight:2000/Merc:2000?  For Traveller, which
milieu?  The possibilities are really endless.  Thanks for posting it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:04:36 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: World Conquest

>Sub-based meson guns are _really_ nasty things to go up against. If you
>just shoot and scoot, it'll be next to impossible to target you, ever.
>You have the advantage of knowing the ground like, well, your own
>backyard.

Someone (either Annti or Idiot/Savant, I think) on the TNE-RCES list had that 
idea bout a year ago to explain the weapons on the Lancer DD's IIRC (they're 
performance in BR indicates TL-15, so were explained as being salvaged from 
submarines on Vras/Aubaine, which is 97% water).  There were other ideas, but 
that was the best.

>On a mostly water world, I think those things would rule, period. You
>wouldn't want to even think about invading.

Depends on how hard integrated use of densitometers and EMS sensors makes it 
to find ships.  It might be too difficult past TL-12, which means those 
things will die fast.  EM Masking and all that in subs... might as well put a 
maneuver drive (would T-plates and/or HEPlaR work underwater?)... and you're 
starting to have what looks like a starship (or maybe spacecraft) that 
operates underwater... Then of course, we end up w/ the aircraft/space 
fighter debate that resolves with the only effective difference the insignia 
on the crew uniforms...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:24:34 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Two interesting sites

OBTrav on these two is quite interesting.  Both can qualify as residences,
and have governments and law levels.  "Freedom" is highly restrictive in
certain areas of law level, while "Oceania" is very low in many areas.  Very
interesting reading on both sites.

Jesse



>This is off topic, but it is interesting...Imagine a ship almost a mile
long...
>
>http://www.freedomship.com
>
>...Or, a floating city...
>
>http://www.oceania.org
>
>Both have some excellent graphics that might be able to help someone
>running a water based adventure.
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>
>"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
>   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
>     ~Stephen Decatur
>
>
>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:25:00 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

> Why is 28 "too old"?
> 
> At least in the current miltary it is possible to "come up thru the
> ranks", and wind up attending the academy to get the education you
> missed the first time around. It ain't *common*, but it's *possible*.

Going up "through the ranks" (or as I usually hear it, becoming a Mustang) is 
possible, but the US military academy's are limited from ages 17 to 22, 
though it's possible to get a waiver (like it is for a number of other 
disqualifying features).
***************
Didn't finish...   Plus, I really doubt 28 can get a waiver. Now an Imperial 
Naval Academy might have an older age limit (Vilani blood and all that)...

There are many ways (in the US Military, at least) of getting a commission, 
but the academies are pretty damned hard to get in (on a comparative scale... 
I can give some statistics on academy cadets if anyones interested.  To make 
it to the general staff is almost always restricted to the academy grad's (at 
least in fact, if not in theory, though like with everything else, there are 
exceptions).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:27:24 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Anders Backman wrote:

> I'm well aware that there probably are no strict rules here
>
> (cybe root of the ships displacement x the number of tatoos of the crew
> divided by the number of pornographic holos hidden in the ratings lockers =
> the number of stars for the commander ;-)

Well that is a good start.

I for one have always thought that engineering crews were too
large. I have taken to basing them on the cube root of the
engines size instead of linearly.

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:07:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:
> 
>
> Didn't finish...   Plus, I really doubt 28 can get a waiver. Now an Imperial
> Naval Academy might have an older age limit (Vilani blood and all that)...

Riiiigggghhht...I can see the scene now....

<Breeeep> <Breeeep>

"Academy Commandant's office, how may I direct your call?"

<Scraaaape>

 as the ensign asnwering the phones leaps involuntarily to attention,
shoving their chair out of the way seeing who's on the vidscreen.

 "Yes, your majesty! Immediately!" 

Quickly he punches a button on his comm. "Admiral Eneri, an call for
you!"

Admiral Eneri growls: "This had better be import...."

<scraaaape>

"Your Majesty! How may I be of service today."

He listens, and his face grows ashen.

"A thousand apologies, your majesty, I shall rectify that immediately!
His royal highness may report to the Academy at his leisure."

After the Emperor signs off, the Admiral calls his secretary.

"Commander, please ask Admiral Bursky into my office immediately, start
the selection process for a new Chief Admissions Officer and process
Admiral, no, _Captain_ Bursky's re-assignment to Murmansk Remote Sensing
Station Zed39 as well."

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:28:48 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated

On 12 Apr, Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:

> I find this assertation odd.  I have never hup0 a player *want* a
> Type-A...  even those who got one for mustering out *immediatley*
> sold it for a minor profit and designed a *real* ship that would
> make money.

Firstly, it is perfectly possible to make bucketloads of cash with
the Type A - generate a merchant with decent trader and broker skills
and then choose your destinations well.

Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits and bought a
better ship?

I'm confused.

The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell it for the
full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a deposit on
their next ship. In practice, the bank would want cancellation fees
and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay less than full
price - so they would make a loss.

Then they buy a "better" ship. Virtually the whole cost of a Type A
is the hull, drives and power plant. So there are no cost savings
to be made. Indeed, without the massive subsidy as a standard design,
the Type A would be MCr52.
You cannot buy a "better" ship without either a lot more cash or
using something like FFS2 to design it.

Bottom line - the Type A is an owner aboard *free trader*. It is not
a freighter. Don't use it to tune the freight rules, use it to tune
the speculative cargo rules.

Supplement 7, p18 explains the difference.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:15:35 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

On 13 Apr, Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Well, using no more than TL9 technology:
> i. Get a precisely geolocated reference point
<snip>
> ii. Carrying a portable inertial nav box
<snip>
> iii. Using a hand laser rangefinder with an integral flux-gate compass
<snip>
> iv. Call for fire.

> v. Retire.

swapping iv and v might be tempting - depending on distance.

> At TL12, all this gear mentioned in (ii) and (iii) will fit
> in a man portable, concealable box.

So at TL15 the entire device could look like a Star Trek
(classic series) type I hand phaser with really impressive
special effects?

I think something that powerful needs a "Press Ok to continue"
dialogue.

:-)

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:35:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Subs and Calling Meson Fire

<Jason>
> From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
> I wouldn't worry. By TL15, space-based detection of submarines is not
> going to be a problem.

Is that TL15 space-based detection of a TL15 stealth sub?  It would
[snip]
</Jason>

Another thing to consider is that these subs could, with their bonded
super-dense hulls, go much deeper than today's subs.  It's going to be
hard to detect something under a couple of kilometers of water at any TL. 
(This is the part where we get into an endless debate about the
capabilities of far-future sensors:  What's the range of a densitometer,
what resolution time would an EMS array need relative to the sub's
movement speed, etc, etc, etc. :-) 

With regards to the question of calling meson fire, alot of people have
brought up the idea of using high-tech equipment to make it easier for joe
average to help out the resistance.  I wasn't thinking of such organized
forces.  If you have time and resources to set up a resistance and hand
out the inertial compasses, laser range-finders, meson communicators and
so on, that would make your planet extremely costly to hold (except for
the punitive measures maneuver if it worked) but that depends on the
individual situation.  Anyone using regular broadcast radio comm would be
subject to orbital bombardment, I think.  As invader, I'd tell the
populace "broadcast and be blasted".  Also, it would be majorly important
to take out the GPS systems (orbital or ground-based) and non-broadcast
communications systems.

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:37:22 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Vargr genocide

It was a city, not a world. 

But yes, they nuked it.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:46:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >Who missed me??
>>
>> Well, now you've proved that you weren't Clif's alter-ego....
>
><evil glare>
>
>*THANKS*

Well, you did disappear at the same time as he stropped off <grin, duck, run>

Dom ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:49:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

 "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> wrote:

>isn't there a reference in BtC to Vargar genocide of a whole world in
>the Marches...Not sure if NBC weapons were used though...

There is a ref to the Seige of Gashikan in -1658 Imperial where the Vargr
nuked a Hi Pop Vilani world in V&V. Also in the GDW AM and GT AR1 IIRC.
Lead to opposition and persecution for the doggies ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:17:40 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Subs and Calling Meson Fire

Charles Collin wrote:

> Anyone using regular broadcast radio comm would be
> subject to orbital bombardment, I think.  As invader, I'd tell the
> populace "broadcast and be blasted".  Also, it would be majorly important
> to take out the GPS systems (orbital or ground-based) and non-broadcast
> communications systems.

Ok, so we're reducing all comm and power grid systems to rubble,
whacking anyone using a cell phone with orbital deadfall, scragging the
starport and sensor grids.

At this point you've reduced the planet at least two TL's if not more,
killed a _major_ chunk of the population, and generally made the place a
nasty little hellhole full of anti-Imperial terrorists by the time
you're done...

Remind me, what exactly did you _want_ to invade this planet for????

Might as well just stand off and lob rocks, nukes and CBW's at it. At
least _then_ you can sit in airconditioned comfort on your BB's...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:31:33 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Travellerizing S:AAB Using Silent Death

Hughes, Michael wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know of, well, anyone, that tried to Travellerize SAAB (the
> show, not the car make)?
> 
> I loved the concept (indeed, loved the show) and if someone has put in the
> hard yards to make it so would they in turn be willing to post/share/reveal?
> 
> Damn shame they killed it (the show, not the car). Apparently they even
> burned all the sets! (criminal waste, tsk tsk).
> 
Yes, in a roundabout sort of way.  What I've been working on is a body
of rules to Travellerize Iron Crown's game "Silent Death", which is
quite suited to the S:AAB setting.  I don't yet have my rules written
down, but I'll try to put something together in the next couple of days.

(For those who haven't played it, Silent Death is a starfighter combat
game, about a step-and-a-half above beer-and-pretzel gaming.  Great fun,
and far more suited to a S:AAB-style game than any of Traveller's
starship combat systems.  Not nearly as _realistic_, but much more
evocative of the fast-paced action of a dogfight.)

> - Michael

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:22:55 EDT
From: MPanusch@aol.com
Subject: Re: Collapsible tanks, etc.

Shawn Campbell wrote :
>>   HG/TCS appears to make the distinction that rigid is required for the
>> quick emptying Jump requires; collapsible tanks fail that test.
>> 
>>   Therefore, what we need are _folding_ external tanks :)

>For some reason.... I just suddenly thought of Megatron and Optimus Prime.

Excuse me if I warm up an old fashioned idea - (Newbee is talking -grin )
BUT 
I feel it would be good old Traveller style if service tanker - non jumpable 
Spaceships - are waiting for customers at astrographical gaps. 

" Free Trader Gilgamesh, here tanker Puffin Blue,
 Got your contract from Hyper-Hydro Union and awaits you at jump point at 
 0900, over "

Hyper Hydro Union is a agency that organises assisted long-leapes from 
Bendor (Spinward Marches 2326) to Ffudn or Squanine - connecting the 
Glisten-Tail of the Spinward main with the Tirem cluster and the Dodds 
cluster.

" Tanker Puffin Blue here Free Trader Gilgamesh. All systems green for
 marriage. Feed us Mother "
 
The Free traders make a rendevou with the Tanker, initiate the pre-jump 
process, take the fuel from the tanker,  get hastily divorced and jump with 
full tanks to there destination.

" Free trader Gilgamesh here Tanker Puffin Blue. Disconnektion in ten seconds.
Diskonnektion 5,4,3,2,1, Now. Have a good jump and happy honneymoon. Over"

This service gives employment for some spaceship crews and can hide some 
adventures for the free trader crews. 

- - waiting for the rendevous the free trader Ulixe receives an emergency call 
of 
the overdue tanker
- - in the hug of the ships some highjackers from the tanker are knocking at 
the 
door (blowing the air locks after blocking the turrets)
- - Before the Free Trader Kilean could afford the repaits at the jump drives, 
the 
crew earned some credits by giving ferry services or so. 

Under this point of view the idea of longer legs for free traders becomes a 
source for old traveler flavor and good stories. And in my oppinion good 
stories 
are the reason for playing traveller.

The players want longer legs ? Ok there is this service. No problems with 
sreamlining the hull, No problems with getting the technical licence of all 
the 
wonderfull impersonall buerocratians on the way (" This is no standart tank. 
This tank is build for high fuctual hydrogenium. Sorry without technical 
license we have to moth your ship in because you are a danger for our orbital 
passage " )

If the players need such a device only one time let the players build it and 
loose 
it at the jump.

" Tanker Puffin Blue here Free Trader Gilgamesh. See you at the oher side. 
Over and out "

MPanusch@aol.com   

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #446
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 447



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval rank?
Re: Subs and Sensors (was Re: World Conquest)
Re: Garbage
Re: Blade Runner 
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Garbage
Re: Garbage
Re: Garbage
Best Solution to World Conquest!
101 Robots
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 
Re: 101 Robots
Re: Best Solution to World Conquest! 
IMTU Geek Code
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Royals and the Military 
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)
Scouts and Assassins book...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:06:47 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< check out High guard or an almanac for naval ranks..the captain would 
> be captain :) and the exec officer would be a commander...then lt 
> commander...Lt, Lt jr grade and ensign :)
> I think that's right...I defer to those with military experience... >>
>
>that's good, but the navy muddies up the waters a bit. They don't always 
>asign a full captain to a ship. A smaller ship will have a commanding officer 
>of a lower rank. Take the Gazelle for an example. She only has a crew of 
>10-12 (depending on which set of rules you use). I would make the "skipper" a 
>Lt. , and the other 2-3 officers either Lt. jgs. (sub Lts. to the non yanks 
>on the list...) or ensigns. The enlisted crew would be one senior NCO (petty 
>officer; prob. a chief PO), and the rest would be jr. PO's and 
>ratings...Therefore it's possible to have a Lt. or even an ensign as a 
>"Captain" of a vessel, and a Captain assigned to a staff postion with no 
>command authority.

Looking at a modern wet navy:

A small ship - say a mine countermeasures vessel - might be commanded by
a lieutenant or a lieutenant commander.

An escort - a frigate or destroyer with a crew of 100-200 - or a
submarine (with a crew of 100) would be commanded by a Commander.

A capital ship - an aircraft carrier - would be commanded by a Captain.

Considering how hard it is to actually *train* people for command,
you're unlikely to see an Ensign (or Sublieutenant) in command of a
ship. Since the ship might be detached for independent duty, it's be too
much to ask for some scroat fresh out of the academy. OTOH, it's quite
reasonable for the chief engineer to be a senior NCO on a minor warship
rather than a junior officer in the engineering branch.

Also, considering that a starship might have to stand watches, you're
looking at a minimum of two or (preferably) three `officers of the day.'
Depending on YTU, these may or may not include NCOs.

>I would give the skipper of the Lisani a rank of anywhere from Lt. Commander 
>up to Captain, depending on the size of the ship and crew. I use a crew size 
>of at least 400-500 to require to CO to be a Captain, as the equiv. land rank 
>is Colonel, and he/she commands at LEAST a battalion sized billet...

Naval commands, in terms of number of personnel, tend to be smaller than
land commands. In terms of importance - would you rather lose a regiment
of troops (a Colonel's command) or a carrier (a Captain's command)?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:50:12 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors (was Re: World Conquest)

Jason Kemp wrote:

>> I wouldn't worry. By TL15, space-based detection of submarines is not
>> going to be a problem.
>
>Is that TL15 space-based detection of a TL15 stealth sub?  It would 
>seem to me that recon improvements at each TL would be met by 
>quasi-effective counter-measures at that same TL.  Just my opinion, 
>though.  Perhaps the counter-measures would not be so much 
>technological in nature as procedural, taking advantage of naturally 
>occurring phenomenon to mask or hide the sub from detection.  
>Otherwise, submarines would not be used for the same purposes at TL15 
>as they are at our current TL.

There are a number of problem here. No matter what you do, a TL15
submarine is going to displace its own volume of water when submerged
from the water column. Recent media speculation is that France has
developed a method for sensing this displacement from high
altitude/space. There are also any number of other signatures (acoustic,
magnetic, thermal to name three) that are never going to go away; but
are going to become more and more vulnerable to detection at the TL
increases.

>> Aetherem Vincere
>
>Okay, I've been dying to ask.  What does this phrase mean, and where
>did it originate?  It appears to be a closing phrase of some kind,
>but I can't place it.  (I hope I'm not embarrassing myself if it is
>part of your name or something.  :) 

The strict translation is `to conquer the upper air'. The normal
translation is `to conquer the ether' - as in the old medium for the
propagation of radio waves. It's the motto from the crest of the first
unit I worked for - the RAF Signals Engineering Establishment, at RAF
Henlow.

>Thanks for your time,

No problem.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:56:58 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Garbage

SD Mooney wrote:

>>You didn't have the materials to make the wings or the turbine blades.
>
>Al alloy.

The *exact* alloy used today probably wasn't available (in airframe &
skin terms). The alloys used in the engine almost certainly weren't
available. But you *could* make a serviceable wing and engine.

>>You didn't have the computer tech to design the airframe or the
>>wind tunnels to test it.
>
>Emperical tests - are you sure there were no wind tunnels in 59?

That's what we used to pay test pilots for...
(Note - ETPS in my .sig stands for Empire Test Pilots School)
(Note2 - Been there, but never on related duty)

>>You didn't have the machine tools to make the components.
>
>Modern blades are single crystals grown in a mould to gain cooling passages
>IIRC.

1959 blades would have been either cast or shaped.

>>I doubt you could even make 1% of a modern airliner using purely
>>1950's tech.
>
>Q. (and serious).
>
>Did the Whittle Engine (later graciously donated to the US by the UK gov)
>have blades? In which case there were aircraft with jets flying in 1945...

Yep, the Whittle engine had a compressor. I think the point is that,
when you tried to build a 450 seat aircraft in 1959, you failed. Today,
Boeing runs them off the line, and the crash merchants at Airbus are
looking at 900-1000 seaters.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:36:48 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Blade Runner 

At 12:14 AM 4/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
>>Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
>...
>>I have a vague recollection (and no saved msg to back it up!) of a thread
>>about this some time ago on this list...  Unless the thread was a joke
>>(and, if so, I was taken in by it!), wasn't Blade Runner the anglicization
>>of something or other in German that had something only peripherally to do
>>with hunting androids?  Does anybody else out there remember this, or am I
>>losing my mind and/or memory?
>
>  That's from K.W. Jeters novel "Blade Runner 2: The Edge of Human" -
>licensed from something called The Blade Runner Partnership, apparently.
>

Which suggests how memorable the novel was; I read it but completely
mind-blocked it...  Tx!


Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:43:58 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

> Based on the US Navy
> ship                   CO
> Frigate               O4-O5 (Lt. Commander-Commander)
> Destroyer           O5-O6 (Commander-Captain)
> Cruiser               O6 (Captain)
> Capital Ship        O7 (Commodore)
>   (BB, Carrier)         (not actually used in the US Navy except in time
> of war)

'fraid I must disagree.  There were Commodore's in the fleet as recently as
1985 (she was the ranking officer at Great Lakes RTC/NTC - believe me, I
remember her rank!)  In '87 (?), Commodores were converted to Rear Admiral
(lower half).  While I don't pay attention to it anymore, I believe that
currently the rank of Rear Admiral still spans two pay grades.

In any case, no Admiral commands a single ship, even carriers.  Captain is
the highest rank for shipboard command (tho' it may not seem that way when
the Admiral is embarked.)  Again, tho' - I'm out of the fleet and haven't
set foot on non-skid since I left the Nimitz in '92.

>
> XO CO grade -1
>
> for the Gazelle, I would say O3-O4 for the CO
>

While I can see a 04 commanding a Gazelle, it would either be a hotshot
promoted during his tour, or a ROAD* slug backwatered to keep the rest of
the fleet safe.  I think the majority of them would be in the hands of O3's
(LT) with either a O2 (LTjg) or maybe a O1 (ENS) as an XO.

On that topic, I can kind of see the following breakdown:

O1 - OIC of small boats (sub 50 dTon range.)
O2 - OIC of light, armed spacecraft (sub 200 dTon.)
O3 - Commands space- and star- craft ranging in size from 100 dton to 999
dtons.  Lowest rank to jump-capable commands.
O4 - Commands smaller space- and star- ships ranging from 1000 dtons to
10000 dtons, but not mounting spinal weaponry (Destroyers, Frigates,
Escorts.)
O5 - Commands warships with spinal weaponry (Cruisers)
O6 - Commands large warships (Carriers, BBs, DNs.)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

*Retired On Active Duty

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:50:45 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 12:11 PM 13/04/1999 PDT, you wrote:
>isn't there a reference in BtC to Vargar genocide of a whole world in 
>the Marches...Not sure if NBC weapons were used though...
>
>Mike
>
        I know that there is a canon reference that the Vargr glassed one of
their own worlds after the Hivers "maipulated" it to the acceptance of using
sauces and flavorings on meats.  Apparently this is major heresy for Vargr....
        Also, the K'Kree in a JTAS article explicitly indicate *they* have
no difficulty genociding a predator race.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:50:45 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Garbage

At 06:29 PM 13/04/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>>I doubt you could even make 1% of a modern airliner using purely
>>1950's tech.
>
>Q. (and serious).
>
>Did the Whittle Engine (later graciously donated to the US by the UK gov)
>have blades? In which case there were aircraft with jets flying in 1945...
>
>Dom
>
        In 1944 Mescherschmitt (sp) had a two-turbine fighter jet in
operation against Allied bomber groups.  Very distinctive looking plane,
with the engines underslung from each wing.  The engines were almost as long
as the fueselage, and it went like a scalded cat.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:15:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> 

>         In 1944 Mescherschmitt (sp) had a two-turbine fighter jet in
> operation against Allied bomber groups.  Very distinctive looking plane,
> with the engines underslung from each wing.  The engines were almost as long
> as the fueselage, and it went like a scalded cat.

Yep. The ME-262, probably the best damn air superiority fighter of WWII,
subsequently wasted by Hitler by pressing the squadrons they did have
into tank-busting on the eastern front, instead of taking out the US
bombers.

Also, by the time it was fielded, Germany was hurting big time on
manufacturing capacity, and couldn't produce them in the quantities
needed.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:26:22 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Garbage

At 05:15 PM 4/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>> 
>
>>         In 1944 Mescherschmitt (sp) had a two-turbine fighter jet in
>> operation against Allied bomber groups.  Very distinctive looking plane,
>> with the engines underslung from each wing.  The engines were almost as long
>> as the fueselage, and it went like a scalded cat.
>
>Yep. The ME-262, probably the best damn air superiority fighter of WWII,
>subsequently wasted by Hitler by pressing the squadrons they did have
>into tank-busting on the eastern front, instead of taking out the US
>bombers.

That's right...  Hitler felt that All fighters were defensive weapons, and
all bombers were offensive weapons.  He refused to allow the 262s to be
made for defense, as he wasn't willing to admit that at that point he was
no longer attacking...  Yet another reason the Germans lost... (Although
with the limited industrial capacity at the time, it may not have made any
difference..)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:28:04 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Best Solution to World Conquest!

<tongue-in-cheek>

The best way to take over a world is:

1.  Find two intelligent lab mice with the ability to speak.

2.  Observe their plans for global domination.

3.  Do something demonstrably different.

NARF!  POIT!  EGAD!!

</tongue-in-cheek>

"...They're dinky, they're Pinky and the Brain...."

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:19:19 +1000
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: 101 Robots

Has anyone on the TML got a copy of 101 Robots?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:38:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >Who missed me??
> >>
> >> Well, now you've proved that you weren't Clif's alter-ego....
> >
> ><evil glare>
> >
> >*THANKS*
> 
> Well, you did disappear at the same time as he stropped off <grin, duck, run>

<sounds of a BFFG being warmed up and pointed over the horizon in your direction>

Oh, rilly?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:43:27 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots

Got mine.  There are several of us.  Was that a leading question?

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: cjbrain <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
: Has anyone on the TML got a copy of 101 Robots?
: 

V.Adm. C. D. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
http://www.downport.com/ct

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:47:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Best Solution to World Conquest! 

> <tongue-in-cheek>
> 
> The best way to take over a world is:
> 
> 1.  Find two intelligent lab mice with the ability to speak.
> 
> 2.  Observe their plans for global domination.
> 
> 3.  Do something demonstrably different.
> 
> NARF!  POIT!  EGAD!!
> 
> </tongue-in-cheek>
> 
> "...They're dinky, they're Pinky and the Brain...."

"Pinky, I think I'm going to have to hurt you now..."

The Brain

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:07:28 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: IMTU Geek Code

Does anyone still have a copy of the IMTU Geek Code?  If so, could you 
forward it to me?  Thanks
 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:11:41 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

> Riiiigggghhht...I can see the scene now....

Except Strephon hates the snot and the Admiral is likely a noble of higher 
position than Lucan (not technically, but in effect as Lucan isn't expected 
to take the Iridium Throne, as he's never even been trained for it).  

The "good" nobles of the 3I are well trained and pay back for their 
priveledged upbringing and status (noblesse oblige).  The "rest" (and Lucan 
fits here, if anywhere)...  Lucan would be the guy to get a blanket party if 
there ever was one.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:40:49 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

Question on Meson guns. As I understand it Meson guns consist of two neutral
particle beams that cause an explosion where they meet. Is there any reason
that both particle beams have to be at the same location? For example could
I deep bury a dozen or so meson particle beam projectors on gimbals so that
they can point in any direction and then tie them together with meson
communicators for coordination?  Then could I fire any two at a particular
target, which should make triangulation much more difficult.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:53:16 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

>> At TL12, all this gear mentioned in (ii) and (iii) will fit
>> in a man portable, concealable box.


>So at TL15 the entire device could look like a Star Trek
>(classic series) type I hand phaser with really impressive
>special effects?


Nah... by TL13 it would look like a type I hand phaser.
By TL15 it would fit into the device that was added to
your cornea when you enlisted.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:06:03 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

>The US Navy does not use Commodore except in time of war so some
>officers are held back (remain at the rank of Captain) while others are
>promoted past Commodore.  The squadron commander for the Destroyer
>Squadron I was with was a Captain by rank but was addresses as
>Commodore, supposably had in time of war had automatic promotion to
>Commodore.

This is no longer true.

For many years the U.S. Navy would advance O-6 (Captains) to paygrade O-7
(Commodore) but frock them to O-8 (Rear Admiral). Frocking is a wonderful
military invention where a person is advanced to a higher rank and given the
responsibilities and privileges of the higher rank but no pay.  This ceased
around 1986 when the Army and Air Force realized that they were outnumbered
at the O-8 level because of the Navy's practice.  This meant that the Navy
guy who was frocked to O-8 two years ago, (but was really only a O-7) got
your parking space, even though you made real O-8 (Major General) last year.

So the Navy was compelled to start making Commodores in peacetime. Most got
the same duties they would have originally had as junior Rear Admirals, like
Cruiser-Destroyer Group Commands. Around 1990 or so the name of the one star
rank was changed to Rear Admiral Lower Half, of whom some rather obnoxious
members were referred to by their beleaguered sailors as the Lower Half of a
Rear Admiral.

Ob Traveller:What is the exact Navy Structure in the Imperium?  Has it
change significantly from Meleiu O to 1120?  I understand canon says that
the Navy is organized into Fleets, a certain number for each Domain. The
Archduke of the Domain exercises a certain amount of control over the
Fleets.  But what about the Navy itself? Is there an Admiralty, as in Great
Britain, or is there a looser structure?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:19:59 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military 

>There are many ways (in the US Military, at least) of getting a commission,
>but the academies are pretty damned hard to get in (on a comparative
scale...
>I can give some statistics on academy cadets if anyone's interested.  To
make
>it to the general staff is almost always restricted to the academy grad's
(at
>least in fact, if not in theory, though like with everything else, there
are
>exceptions).

Not in the U.S. Navy. It seems not to matter for the most recent crop of
Flag officers right up to CNO. If fact one of them was a Mustang (an
ex-enlisted sailor). Part of this may be because a goodly number of Pilots
and Nuclear Trained Officers now come from either NROTC or OCS. Members of
both cadre are more likely to advance to flag rank than some Academy grad
who specializes in Poli Sci.

Does the Imperial Navy get all it's officers though a central Naval Academy,
or are there other military schools, perhaps in some of the Domain capitals
that provide an alternative path to Navy Commission? During wartime does the
Navy sometimes commission commercial spacemen, as both the U.S. and Royal
Navy did during W.W.II?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:21:18 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

At 11:06 PM 4/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
<Snip>...
>For many years the U.S. Navy would advance O-6 (Captains) to paygrade O-7
>(Commodore) but frock them to O-8 (Rear Admiral). Frocking is a wonderful
>military invention where a person is advanced to a higher rank and given the
>responsibilities and privileges of the higher rank but no pay.  
...

I understand the principal of commodoreship, but didn't realize that in the
USN, it equated to a paygrade...  I thought an 07/G1 was a rear admiral of
the lower half (or something like that...)  Is that to say that naval
officers passing from 06 to 08/G2 are, in between, 07/G1 Commodores?  


Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:25:00 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military (was: Imperial Fashions)

From:           	TravelrTNE@aol.com
Date sent:      	Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:11:41 EDT

>> Riiiigggghhht...I can see the scene now....

>Except Strephon hates the snot and the Admiral is likely a noble of higher 
>position than Lucan (not technically, but in effect as Lucan isn't expected 
>to take the Iridium Throne, as he's never even been trained for it).  

I read it as that Strephon didn't actually hate Lucan (prior to the
assassination), more he ignored him. However the point is not to meet
Lucan's wishes, but to drill some disipline into the spoilt brat (which is why
the Marines and not the Navy).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:33:12 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Scouts and Assassins book...

I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by "Narapoia",
which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #447
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 448



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval rank?
Re: Scouts and Assassins book...
Re: IMTU Geek Code
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Naval rank?
Scouts and Assassins book...
(OT!!!) ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! 
Re: 101 Robots
Re: Scouts and Assassins book...
OT: Antimatter and more "conventional" fusion propulsion
Re: Baby Bridges in FFS2
Meson Submarine Countermeasures
Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --  Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
Re: Campaign : Navy Blood
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Garbage
Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:10:55 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

- ----------
> From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Naval rank?
> Date: Tuesday, 13 April, 1999 11:21 PM
> 
> At 11:06 PM 4/13/99 -0400, you wrote:

> I understand the principal of commodoreship, but didn't realize that in
the
> USN, it equated to a paygrade...  I thought an 07/G1 was a rear admiral
of
> the lower half (or something like that...)  Is that to say that naval
> officers passing from 06 to 08/G2 are, in between, 07/G1 Commodores?  
> 
In the past, yes.  It used to be that Captains (O6) were promoted to
Commodore (O7) and then effectively given an acting rank to Rear Admiral
(O8), but with the pay of an O7.  What happens now is that Captains are
promoted to Rear Admiral, Lower Half (O7) and then to Rear Admiral, Upper
Half (O8) sometime later, each being a distinct pay grade.

However, this system appears to be unique to the US Navy (thank goodness). 

I believe the Royal Navy has recently reinstituted the rank of Commodore as
an actual rank/paygrade; in the past they had gone direct from Captain to
Rear Admiral, with senior captains being appointed to positions as
Commodores without a permanent change in rank.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:24:15 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Scouts and Assassins book...

Add it to your collection.  The later issues are playable, but this one
is collectible.  If you look at my review of S&A on Freelance Traveller
you'll find a complete list of all the different versions.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
: I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by
"Narapoia",
: which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
: It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?



V.Adm. C. D. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
http://www.downport.com/ct

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:33:39 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: IMTU Geek Code

I am proud to say that the IMTU code has recently been republished on
Downport.com as part of the Eaglestone Collection
http://www.downport.com/eaglestone


- ----- Original Message -----
From: James Pearson <jdpearson@wr.net>
: Does anyone still have a copy of the IMTU Geek Code?  If so, could you
: forward it to me?  Thanks



Colin Michael
Classic Traveller Editor
CT@downport.com

http://www.downport.com
 "The Traveller Domain"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:21:10 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Douglas Glatz wrote:

>> Capital Ship        O7 (Commodore)
>>   (BB, Carrier)         (not actually used in the US Navy except in
time
>> of war)
>
>'fraid I must disagree.  There were Commodore's in the fleet as
recently as
>1985 (she was the ranking officer at Great Lakes RTC/NTC - believe me,
I
>remember her rank!)  In '87 (?), Commodores were converted to Rear
Admiral
>(lower half).  While I don't pay attention to it anymore, I believe
that
>currently the rank of Rear Admiral still spans two pay grades.

I may have overstepped there as I have never been on a Carrier.  In '83
we had a Captain thet was called Commodore. The only CO of a carrier I
knew of while I was in was a Rear Admiral (2 stars), but he may have
been just promoted and awaiting his replacement (or he was
misidentified?)

On Destroyers (325 crew) the CO came aboard as a Commander and was
transfered after being promoted to Captain.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:28:19 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Douglas Glatz wrote:

>On that topic, I can kind of see the following breakdown:
>
>O1 - OIC of small boats (sub 50 dTon range.)
>O2 - OIC of light, armed spacecraft (sub 200 dTon.)
>O3 - Commands space- and star- craft ranging in size from 100 dton to
999
>dtons.  Lowest rank to jump-capable commands.
>O4 - Commands smaller space- and star- ships ranging from 1000 dtons to

>10000 dtons, but not mounting spinal weaponry (Destroyers, Frigates,
>Escorts.)
>O5 - Commands warships with spinal weaponry (Cruisers)
>O6 - Commands large warships (Carriers, BBs, DNs.)

I like this better than my breakdown. I would add to O5: non-combatants
>10000

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:40:37 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

jcarlino wrote:

>So the Navy was compelled to start making Commodores in peacetime. Most
>got the same duties they would have originally had as junior Rear
Admirals,
>like Cruiser-Destroyer Group Commands. Around 1990 or so the name of
the >one star rank was changed to Rear Admiral Lower Half, of whom some
rather >obnoxious members were referred to by their beleaguered sailors
as the Lower >Half of a Rear Admiral.

So Commodore is now a possition and not a rank.  I am behind on my
military history. time to go back and study.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:39:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Scouts and Assassins book...

Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com> wrote:

>I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by "Narapoia",
>which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
>It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?

In my experience, not much.  The GDW Scout book is *far* superior.  I have
unfond memories of using that book back in the 80s and while trying to
generate ordinary scouts I kept getting PCs with Interrogation 5 and
similar skills.  Blech. 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 02:39:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: (OT!!!) ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! 

Eris, I've been trying to email you, dood, but my new email address bounces 
off you.  I'm now at jamstar@earthlink.net.

Sorry to take up bandwidth, gang...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:45:12 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots

cjbrain wrote:

> Has anyone on the TML got a copy of 101 Robots?


Yes
- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:49:12 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Scouts and Assassins book...

Don McKinney wrote:

> I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by "Narapoia",
> which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
> It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?

Lots, to the right person.

- --
Evyn...
Altus Schola Stellamilitia, ad1999

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:20:00 +0100
From: Greg Aldridge <Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com>
Subject: OT: Antimatter and more "conventional" fusion propulsion

Just received this from NASA.

Makes for interesting reading.

- ----------

NASA Space Science News for April 13, 1999

Reaching for the stars:  At the 1999 Advanced Propulsion Research
Workshop,
antimatter and fusion take center stage as possible rocket fuels for
future
spacecraft.  FULL STORY at 
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop12apr99_1.htm

- ----------

- -- 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Greg Aldridge      | "Since light travels faster than sound, isn't
   Software Engineer,   | that why some people appear bright until you
   EASAMS Engineering   |              hear them speak?"
        Systems         |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Email: Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com    Tel: 01245 353221 x4916
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:11:43 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Baby Bridges in FFS2

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: 20 ton Bridge (was re: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated
Equestrian --Br
>How small can you make the bridge workstations, sensors, and avionics of 
>a 200dtn civilian ship in FFS2? Can you fit all that into 4dtn?

You can fit it into about four. Two 14m3 bridgestations (pilot and
navigator), two 7m3 crewstations, a 5m3 sensor array, one m3 of avionics
and the three 1m3 computers.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:26:55 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

I'm a lot more sanguine about meson submarines than most seem to be.

The basic reason is that meson guns big enough to punch reasonable sized
meson screens chew up large amounts of power, and that means lots of mass
and lots of power plant.

Now, oceans are pretty shallow, so a decent gravitic sensor should let you
pinpoint big lumps of not-water pretty accuratly.

A decent ?neutrino? sensor (y'know, the one that finds working power
plants) should be able to pick them up from orbit.

Once they are found, they are killed.

Small meson guns can also be countered by meson screens. 

All in all, I think deep meson sites (with biiiiiig battery packs) are the
way to go.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:42:29 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --  Broken Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated Equestrian --  Broken
Freight Rates Revisited (CT/HG)...
>
>        I suppose, except that this doesn't sound too speedy at the gaming
>table.  Using a flat multiplier that only changes every 5-10 years of game
>time seems to me to be a better mechanic.

Basically, you will have three numbers, one of which (TL11) will be 'one'.
The TL 10 designs get a discount of x, the TL9 designs get a discount of y.

Once the TNEC goes to TL12, you have four numbers ...

>>The venerable type A just isnt an economically viable design under
>>anything. Sorry.
>>
>
>        Which is my under-lying beef. 

*shrug* Things you might try include making misjump chances lower with
smaller ships. Perhaps a basic misjump number of 1 in 216 for a 100 dton
ship, 2 in 216 for 200 dtons, 3 in 216 for 300 dtons etc etc etc.

That way, what you win on the swings of scale efficiency you lose on the
roundabouts of increased misjump chances.

>         As I commented on the CT-Starships mailing list, I find this very
>odd.  I have never had a player *want* a Type-A...  even those who got one
>for mustering out *immediatley* sold it for a minor profit and designed a
>*real* ship that would make money.  If only so they could do more
>interesting things and not be a slave to the loan payments.
>        That so many of them exist in canon indicates to me that either the
>average merchant is a masochist with a penchant for heartache, or they need
>to fit the 3%-5% RORPA window somehow.  I am aiming at the later scenario.
 =)

How many do exist in canon ? They always struck me as an artifact of the
character design rules ... G:T Far Trader is the first serious attempt at
quantifying the amount of trade in the Imperium, and the theme is Big. Very
big. Seriously lots.

>        I'll work it out tonight when I get home..  I am at work right now,
>and for some odd reason don't keep High Guard at my desk =).

Not even the 2 page table summary ? ;)

>
>>If you have freight prices that make a 200 dton jump-1 freighter
>>profitable, than a 1000 dton jump-1 freighter should make serious money.
>>
>
>        And have some serious overhead, too.  Specifically, 10 more gunners
>per month and 5 times as many engineers.

Well, on a 1000 dton HG ship I'd have a three batteries of doubled triple
lasers and four of single triple sandcasters, for seven gunners (Ditzie
would have a 100 dton PAW bay).

The five engineers is appropriate, because they are in a ship five times
the size. And they get to sleep in shifts, unlike the singlehanded guy on
the A1 (unless he wants to trust the Navigator to wake him up when the
reactor starts to feather).

>        Without...  We're not talking about going and buying a TL9 ship in a
>TL11 milieu, we're talking about a TL9 ship that was build 50 years ago at
>TL9 now competing for Cr against a TL11 ship built at TL11...  both cost
>100%, but the TL11 vessel has the economics of the milieu on its side.

If it's 50 years old, it sure as heck shouldnt cost the sticker price.
Shouldnt be as reliable either ... perhaps -1 to effective skills per 20
years of ship age ?


>        Thanks...  I wonder if any of that is applicable to the 3i....

Nahh. If the area isnt secure, declare a Fleet Exersise. It's amazing how a
single obsolete CL can intimidate every pirate within a dozen systems.

>
>        In the Core, only mail-haulers bother with gunners.
>        In the Frontier, Gunnery is an *art form*.  In fact, in some cases,
>the salary for gunners is doubled by the mega-corps.

Doubled ? I'm talking fifty thousand a month. Plus performance bonuses
*and* combat money. After all, you are defending an asset with a value in
the tens of megacredits ...

>
>        From a role-playing perspective, my FTF group looked at the entire
>concept of the Core and said..  "Hmmm... sounds boring...  we can make more
>money out here..."  =)
>

Of course. By the way, does your local video shop stock 'The Wages of Fear' ?

Finally, did I ever send you my Small Scale Colonisation in Traveller rules
? It might be useful for all those struggling frontier colonies.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:02:45 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Campaign : Navy Blood

>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>Subject: Campaign: Navy Blood
>
>Campaign: Navy Blood
>An abstract Merchant adventure
>

Just one quick comment. Wow.

Get a copy of G:T Far Trader, and talk to Loren about working this up into
a Merchant Venturer adventure.

>1112-037 Regina/Regina:Spinward Marches
>
>     Masahuru Kawamori took a look at the golden Michael Tukera
>building one last time.

<excellent stuff snipped>

>
>**********************
>
>     The PC's are part of a band of 5-10 old friends and
>acquaintances.  Ex-Navy types, they are trying to make a second
>career out of a microniche in the liner trade.  Specifically, they are
>aware of vast number of Navy families who are scattered
>across the sector, greatly separated from their serving men.  Typically,
>when possible the Imperial Navy will give them vouchers to travel
>to their husband's posting.

Are these transferable ? If they are Middle Passage vouchers, then perhaps
there might be interest in trading them in for steerage for others ... you
could take the single yourself in a stateroom, or take your wife and kid in
a shared bunk, plus a couple of thousand in cash.

The orginal vouchers could be bundled up, and offered to colonies who need
a Middle Passage ticket for that expensive contractor, in exchange for a
small equity or countertrade consideration.

<more Excellent Stuff snipped>.

>
>**********************
>
>     I don't have a copy of Far Trader, so the Referee will have
>to settle the important details on his own. Still, some points
>can be made to guide this campaign:

*get one*

>
>* Upgrading costs: Shipyard costs will be a constant thing to
>  watch out for.  How much of a deal can be made with the local
>  shipyard?  How about shopping around for the right price?  As
>  the PC's are experienced vet's, they can certainly do some of
>  the work, but how much can they do, and how will this sweat
>  equity be paid for?  What did the lawyer say about the
>  contract?  And the local ShipMaster's Association: what do they
>  recommend? Finally, are there any discount's for Government work?

Innovative financing may also be considered - if you are on a scheduled
run, then do they ever need spare parts shipped in from somewhere ?

The other issue to consider is using the skills of the transferees - if
they are leaving the IN, then they may consider a job offer.

>
>  More peaceably, additional financing could be raised up with
>  more partner's, but more partner's mean less control over the
>  business, and NERV/Logistics may not like this. 

G:T FT also has rules for bond issues and such.

>
>* Running the Liner
>
>So all the money is squared away, the licences have been
>secured, and the _Wings of Honneanise_ is ready to lift.
>After the teething problems, certain things tend to stand
>out with operating this ship, in comparison to other liners
>
>  - Lot's of women and small kids.  The wives tend to
>be somewhat conservative, and they may pump the
>ex-Navy crew for info about their husbands, Navy rumours,
>or anything else that come to their minds.  Someof these
>women were raised in a Navy family: more clued in than
>their sisters, they often know what to ask, and what
>not to ask.  It's possible that they have had a prior
>connection with the PC's and may ask for a
>favour or even be in a position to GIVE a favour.
>
>The Imperial Navy is an intensely political organization,
>and is the fundamental basis of political power in the
>Third Imperium.  Because of this, the PC's will have to
>"forget they heard" certain information, and sometimes
>be extremely careful in what they say: you never know
>who's listening.
>
>
>Taking care of the kids will be a priority: superior
>childcare one of the major reason's why the families
>is using _Wings of Honneanise_  instead of, say,
>Oberlindes Lines for their transportation.  Much of this
>will be left to the stewards, but the grizzled ex-Navy
>PC's will occasionally have to deal with it.
>Be nice, folks: mommy is watching.

Can I pleeeeeeaaaassseee fire the guns again, Gunny ? Pleeeeaaaseee ?

(*zappity zap zap zap at a rock. Sneaky pirate was disguising himself as a
rock. Mucho paperwork ...*)

>
>  - Upon occasion, the ship will be drafted to withdraw
>Navy and Noble families from certain hostile regions.
>The PC's might get the Navy to provide a bit of covering
>fire if needed, but most of the time they will be
>expected to handle the situation themselves.
>This will be rare event.

Is this set pre-FFW ?

<more really great stuff snipped>

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:10:22 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
: >> Capital Ship        O7 (Commodore)
: >>   (BB, Carrier)         (not actually used in the US Navy except in
: time
: >> of war)
: >
: >'fraid I must disagree.  There were Commodore's in the fleet as
: recently as
: >1985 (she was the ranking officer at Great Lakes RTC/NTC - believe
me,

When Grace Hopper retired she was a captain, but was recalled at the
rank of Commodore.  At the time she was the only one in the Navy.  Early
to mid-Eighties time frame.  For a short while there, the old rank was
in vogue again.  Even if Mr. "I created the Internet" Gore becomes
C-in-C he'll still never out rank Amazing Grace.  As a USN Data
Processing Tech. during that time I saluted her photo whenever I passed
by.  IIRC, she did retire (the second time) as a Rear Admiral, though.


Acting Commodore C. D. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
http://www.downport.com/ct

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:44:30 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Matt Clonfero wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >I would give the skipper of the Lisani a rank of anywhere from Lt. Commander
> >up to Captain, depending on the size of the ship and crew. I use a crew size
> >of at least 400-500 to require to CO to be a Captain, as the equiv. land rank
> >is Colonel, and he/she commands at LEAST a battalion sized billet...
> 
> Naval commands, in terms of number of personnel, tend to be smaller than
> land commands. In terms of importance - would you rather lose a regiment
> of troops (a Colonel's command) or a carrier (a Captain's command)?
> 
"Why, the carrier, of course," replied Colonel Erik von Oldenburg
[current assignment: commanding officer, 1199th Imperial Infantry
Regiment (Jump)].

Seriously, though, that question depends on the mission at hand.  After
all, carriers (either wet navy or space-going) cannot seize and hold
terrain.  OTOH, there are missions that require air power, something
that your average infantry regiment lacks.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:51:10 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Garbage

At 23:56 13/04/1999 +0100, Matt Clonfero wrote:
<snip>
>SD Mooney wrote:
>
>>Emperical tests - are you sure there were no wind tunnels in 59?

IIRC, in 1945 the Germans had a Mach 0.80 Wind tunnel

The Me163 (rocket fighter) did Mach 0.84.

<snip>

>>Did the Whittle Engine (later graciously donated to the US by the UK gov)
>>have blades? In which case there were aircraft with jets flying in 1945...
>
>Yep, the Whittle engine had a compressor. I think the point is that,
>when you tried to build a 450 seat aircraft in 1959, you failed. Today,
>Boeing runs them off the line, and the crash merchants at Airbus are
>looking at 900-1000 seaters.

That was my point. There had seemd to be an assumption that there was no
difference between a TL6 Jet and a TL8 one.

Now part of the confusion is because our tech levels are only a few decades
apart and its sometimes difficult to appreciate the advances in a field
that you don't know in detail. At first glance, Concorde seems more advanced
than a 777, but I'm sure that those in the know would say that you could use
777 tech to build a better Concorde, but Concorde tech wouldn't build a 777.

I'm guessing here, because everything I know about aircraft design wouldn't
be enough to write FFS2, let alone build the real thing. :-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:01:16 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

>I'm a lot more sanguine about meson submarines than most seem to be.
>
>The basic reason is that meson guns big enough to punch reasonable sized
>meson screens chew up large amounts of power, and that means lots of mass
>and lots of power plant.
>
>Now, oceans are pretty shallow, so a decent gravitic sensor should let you
>pinpoint big lumps of not-water pretty accuratly.
>
>A decent ?neutrino? sensor (y'know, the one that finds working power
>plants) should be able to pick them up from orbit.
>
>Once they are found, they are killed.
>
>Small meson guns can also be countered by meson screens.
>
>All in all, I think deep meson sites (with biiiiiig battery packs) are the
>way to go.
>
>Ian Whitchurch

Forget about massdetectors - use neutrino sensors. They'll spot the subs
right away if running on internal fusion power. On the other hand; maybe
they normally run on fuelcells etc to move around and just fire up their
fusion plants when they're about to fire.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:00:27 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 22:53 13/04/1999 -0700, "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com> wrote:
>
>>So at TL15 the entire device could look like a Star Trek
>>(classic series) type I hand phaser with really impressive
>>special effects?
>
>Nah... by TL13 it would look like a type I hand phaser.
>By TL15 it would fit into the device that was added to
>your cornea when you enlisted.

Blink...BOOM!

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:26:13 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Those bad doggies...No treat for them :)

_______________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #448
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 449



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Droyne world in Trojan reach?
Lower tech system defense was: World Conquest
Re: Fav Adventure 
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Re: Bladerunner
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Liberty Ships
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Royals and the Military 
Re: World Conquest
Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures
Re: Subs and Calling Meson Fire
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)
Re: Droyne world in Trojan reach?
Subsector/Sector Generation SW
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:07:07 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

Can an Imperial world live without trade?

If it has an hospitable climate, then the population can easily
live there.  They might have to live there at TL3, but they can
still live there and thrive.

If this world has a large and supportable population base, then
the planet can sustain a reasonable tech level as well... even
TL9...

To have a high tech level, though, the world will probably need
to exploit its system resources or trade for them: large deposits
of raw materials that you can strip mine with abandon and not
worry about hurting your world.  Large scale industrialization
is a stepping stone to higher tech levels, yes?

That being said, I suppose there is a special relationship between
asteroid belt mainworlds and nearby agricultural worlds.

Once your system has arrived at TL14, 15, 16, what kind of
trade does it really need to sustain itself?  Darrian didn't need
a lot of friends, but I'm sure it imported raw materials and
still does.  So in closing I'll say it can be very helpful to have
3 complementary systems for tech advancement, but a single,
gifted world can do it alone over a longer period of time.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:32:00 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Droyne world in Trojan reach?

In the Droyne Alien Module there appears to be a droyne world in the 
tobia subsector of the Trojan reach? Does anyone know the name of it? 
TIA
Mike

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:43:59 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: Lower tech system defense was: World Conquest

Great world conquest material in this thread! It makes me want to permit
them in my campaign. I'm running a TNE-style post-collapse but no virus
campaign. Meson Guns are extremely rare. 

At lower techs, the best defense seems to be the investment of
population in a system. It is very expensive to found a colony and make
it viable. The best worlds ripe for plucking by an adversary are the
ones that are viable and mostly economically independent from the
founding power. Therefore, IMTU, I try to make trade laws reflect the
parent state / colony relationship. 

The colonizing power should maintain a large garrison in the system
especially if it is a frontier world. Colonial militias are organized to
resist invading forces until the fleet can arrive with a counter attack.
Extensive use of grav vehicles armed with fusion guns and tactical nukes
would be used to resist. 

The important thing is to make sure the planet population is loyal to
the colonizing empire and does not want to switch sides.

What else can be done on a lower tech world (say 10 to 12) to prevent
invasion?  


Humorous aside - I see John Cleese as a defense instructor telling his
class

"Olright now, 'ow to defend yourself against a marauding horde...
without a meson gun"

	You were going to shoot me!

No I wasn't.

When do we get to learn about pointed sticks?



Sorry, I shouldn't have gone there. But I did...
Bye!
Glenn
______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers                 Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
ANSYS Inc.                       
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:27:26 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Fav Adventure 

#1: Twilights Peak

Played as a campaign lasting over a year (the hunt for the octagon) with a
grand finale (the Zhodani raid on the alien base), then springboarded into
another campaign of espionage during the Fifth Frontier War (Zhodani
Intelligence was convinced the players were Imperial superspies, because
they singlehandedly destroyed an advance base, so made them a prime target
for neutralization).  Two years of fun from a little adventure was a great
deal!


#2: Murder on Arcturus Station/Safari Ship (tie)

Never played either one as a full adventure, but they did a good job of
modelling non-military adventures at a time when most other games
concentrated on shoot-em-ups. Pulled elements from both into my ongoing
campaign.


#3: Shadows

A great adventure for introducing people to Traveller at clubs and
conventions. It does resemble a dungeon crawl, but with the right
atmosphere (no pun intended) the players really get the feel of a science
fiction game. I always used fluorine for the insidious atmosphere - nasty
stuff, especially when it gets in your suit. Also gave me a chance for a
quick chemistry lesson on proper materials handling! :-)

(I put 25mm plans of the alien complex at
<www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9135>, sectioned off into chambers so
that they can be laid on the table as the players explore the complex. The
visuals work well with younger kids, say 10-15.)



I deliberately haven't listed the DGP adventures, partly because they were
uniformly good, and partly because they are not available for GURPS use
(dispute with Roger Sanger, I think) and so will almost certainly get
contradicted down the line...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:40:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

On 04/14/99 08:07:07 you wrote:
>
>Can an Imperial world live without trade?
>
>If it has an hospitable climate, then the population can easily
>live there.  They might have to live there at TL3, but they can
>still live there and thrive.
>
>If this world has a large and supportable population base, then
>the planet can sustain a reasonable tech level as well... even
>TL9...
>
>To have a high tech level, though, the world will probably need
>to exploit its system resources or trade for them: large deposits
>of raw materials that you can strip mine with abandon and not
>worry about hurting your world.  Large scale industrialization
>is a stepping stone to higher tech levels, yes?
>
>That being said, I suppose there is a special relationship between
>asteroid belt mainworlds and nearby agricultural worlds.
>
>Once your system has arrived at TL14, 15, 16, what kind of
>trade does it really need to sustain itself?  Darrian didn't need
>a lot of friends, but I'm sure it imported raw materials and
>still does.  So in closing I'll say it can be very helpful to have
>3 complementary systems for tech advancement, but a single,
>gifted world can do it alone over a longer period of time.
>
>-Rob
>

	I agree with you up to the point where you say 3 worlds are helpful 
but a single world can do it if they really want.  
      Far Trader is of the opinion that it takes at least many sectors to 
support a GTL-12/TTL-15 infrastructure.  This may be partly self-serving in 
that it makes trade very important, but I think this is critical to the 
Traveller background.  If trade across very wide areas is _not_ critical to 
the support of tech levels above GTL-8/TTL-8 then it becomes difficult to 
see why the canonical tech level drop of the Long Night and Hard Times 
occured when trade was cut off.  Also, if trade doesn't need to occur across 
long distances, then there is no economic basis for the Imperium.

      Darrian is obviously the fly in this ointment, but I think we can 
somewhat explain it away.  AM8-Darrian tells us that pre-Maghiz Darrian 
society was totally absorbed in science, with nearly every person working on 
their own research.  We can also assume from this that Darrian did not have 
much of a "consumer culture" because their world was so gentle, social 
status was conferred by good research rather than material possesions, and 
they were simply more interested in science than creature comforts.  This 
would free up a lot of people for advancing the frontiers of knowledge that 
might otherwise have been busy marketing plush toys and so on.  If we say 
that the Darrians had GTL-13/TTL-16 technical knowledge but perhaps not 
large industrial capability, things are also easier because this means a 
smaller committment of physical resources would be required.  If we need 
even further qualifications, we can say that Darrian knowledge wasn't evenly 
spread, but was focused in the physical sciences (hence the ships and star 
trigger).


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:48:21 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

The Bladerunner 2 novels aren't that bad, K.W. Jeter aside from being
one of the original "Cyberpunk" authors is an award winning horror
writer. His books especially "Praying Mantis" will frighten the pougies
out of you, and make you have second thoughts about your wife, spouse,
significant other. Jeter was a long time friend of PKD during the
seventies and was/is one of Dick's greatest champions after most fans
and fellow authors thought he went off his nut. Phil Dick's fiction laid
the foundation for "Cyberpunk" and the "New Wave" genres of SF.
Dick's religious and philosophical writing "Valis", "The Three Stigmata
of Palmer Eldritch", and his "Exegesis" would lead one to believe either
he was in communion with the angels or higher powers, or in my opinion,
just marching to the beat of a different drummer in another time-zone.
"Bladerunner" comes from the work of surgeon, SF author Alan E. Nourse,
who is credited in the BR movie credits. His work is pretty scary about
a world where people without HMO's are denied medical care and the care
those who have it is substandard. "Bladerunners" perform medical
services off the clock, which is very illegal. The novel is an attack
both on socialized medicine and private insurance. The Bladerunner
Partnership also includes Phil Dick's last wife and his literary
biographer/editor Leonard Sutin. Jeter was passed the mantle for writing
in the "phildickian" be the Master himself .

OT: I've incorporated many "phildickian" motifs in my Traveller and
2300AD campaigns. Anything to make my players question their sanity,
reality, and place in the scheme of things. "A Scanner Darkly", "Flow My
Tears the Police Man Said", "Dr. Futurity", and "We can remember it for
you wholesale" have elements to weird up your campaing/universe without
bringing in the Cthulu Stuff. Has any one else out there in TV Land read
more of Dick's writings than "Do Androids Dream"? Ain't he beautiful?

MUSASHI

{Deckard was a replicant, reread the book.}

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:06:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Phil Kitching wrote:

> At 22:53 13/04/1999 -0700, "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com> wrote:
> >
> >>So at TL15 the entire device could look like a Star Trek
> >>(classic series) type I hand phaser with really impressive
> >>special effects?
> >
> >Nah... by TL13 it would look like a type I hand phaser.
> >By TL15 it would fit into the device that was added to
> >your cornea when you enlisted.

That cornea thing was also done in Star Trek TNG.  Some chick was using
it to control her cloaked ship, orbiting the planet.  She got the
natives to think she was the Devil coming back to  claim her planet.
Data acted as judge.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:01:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Liberty Ships

At 09:33 AM 4/12/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Nope the record was either 24 or 36 _hours_. I saw part of a documentary on
>the subject recently. The liberty ships were also the first major groups of
>ships built where the joins were welded rather than riveted together which
>related to some acidents with the early liberty ships (If I remember
>correctly some of them literally broke in half, due to the temperature.)

If you are interested, the S.S. Jeremiah O'Brien is open for viewing at
Pier 32 in San Francisco.  For more information:

http://www.crl.com/~wefald/obrien.html
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:09:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 01:59 AM 4/13/99 -0700, you wrote:

>compass? Where's the digital display? Where's the on/off button? Geez... the
>needle won't even move. This thing doesn't work. [toss]

To be fiar, I'm a city boy, and was taught land navigation to the point of
being able to find my way from point to point on a moonless night using
only a map and compass.  That training took about two weeks.

From what I understand, the Infantry School still teaches land nav despite
the easy avalibility of GPS.  This is because, in the immortal words of 1SG
Dollar, "shit breaks."
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:14:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 06:02 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:

>iii. Using a hand laser rangefinder with an integral flux-gate compass,
>measure the precise range and bearing to the target (just point it at
>the target and press the button). Add this vector onto your location
>from (ii) - you now know precisely where the target it.

Today's Army has a laser designator that hooks into the GPS.  It knows
where it is, and then it knows the precise bearing and range to the target,
so it can uplink the taget's location to any interested unit.  Take three
readings, and it'll give you velocity and heading information.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:42:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 08:50 PM 4/13/99 -0300, you wrote:

>        I know that there is a canon reference that the Vargr glassed one of
>their own worlds after the Hivers "maipulated" it to the acceptance of using
>sauces and flavorings on meats.  Apparently this is major heresy for
Vargr....

That was the K'Kree nuking several of their own worlds that the Hivers had
manipulated.  The Hivers and Vargr share no common borders.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:22:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military 

At 11:19 PM 4/13/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Does the Imperial Navy get all it's officers though a central Naval Academy,
>or are there other military schools, perhaps in some of the Domain capitals
>that provide an alternative path to Navy Commission? During wartime does the
>Navy sometimes commission commercial spacemen, as both the U.S. and Royal
>Navy did during W.W.II?

IMTU, there is one Naval Academy per Sector (more or less).  The Spinward
Marches Academy is located at Macine Belt.  Marines don't have an Academy.
All Marines enlist as regular Armsmen, and after their first few years of
service, may be invited to attend OCS.  This insures that all Marine
officers understand what they are asking their troops to do, and that the
enlisted Marines know that their officers aren't blind to their concerns.

One thing I've always wanted to do was a Navy based on the Age of Sail
Royal Navy.  Midshipmen, Lieutenants, and Captains.  That's it.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:45:55
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

At 06:21 PM 4/12/99 +0100, you wrote:

>You need to secure a landing zone for regular forces, as you say. There
>are two options - take an existing one, or bring your own. Taking an
>existing downport is going to be hard if the defenders have half a clue,
>since even if your marines can bring overwhelming force to bear, the
>facility is going to be wrecked. So we bring one with us.

the advantage to taking the existing downport is that the defenders are
probably going to be unwillingly to utterly destroy several billion credits
worth of infrastructure.  A build your own downport is going to attract
every attempt to utterly destroy it.

Grabbing the world's downport also gives you all that nice infrastucture
that you don't have to pack with you.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

Ian or Katts writes:
> 
> I'm a lot more sanguine about meson submarines than most seem to be.
> 
> The basic reason is that meson guns big enough to punch reasonable sized
> meson screens chew up large amounts of power, and that means lots of mass
> and lots of power plant.
> 
> Now, oceans are pretty shallow, so a decent gravitic sensor should let you
> pinpoint big lumps of not-water pretty accuratly.

Um...only if the resolution is quite good.  By and large, submarines have the
same density as water...
> 
> A decent ?neutrino? sensor (y'know, the one that finds working power
> plants) should be able to pick them up from orbit.

However, given that this isn't used to kill buried meson guns, presumably the
resolution of a neutrino sensor is insufficient for targeting purposes....

> Small meson guns can also be countered by meson screens. 

Yes, but this doesn't help ground troops much...
> 
> All in all, I think deep meson sites (with biiiiiig battery packs) are the
> way to go.

Actually, moderately deep meson sites with connections to the urban power grid
(and big battery packs) are probably more useful ;)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:40:12 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subs and Calling Meson Fire

Charles Collin wrote:

>Another thing to consider is that these subs could, with their bonded
>super-dense hulls, go much deeper than today's subs.  It's going to be
>hard to detect something under a couple of kilometers of water at any TL. 
>(This is the part where we get into an endless debate about the
>capabilities of far-future sensors:  What's the range of a densitometer,
>what resolution time would an EMS array need relative to the sub's
>movement speed, etc, etc, etc. :-) 

I'd say that sensors are going to win this one by TL15. YTU may vary, of
course.

>With regards to the question of calling meson fire, alot of people have
>brought up the idea of using high-tech equipment to make it easier for joe
>average to help out the resistance.  I wasn't thinking of such organized
>forces.  If you have time and resources to set up a resistance and hand
>out the inertial compasses, laser range-finders, meson communicators and
>so on, that would make your planet extremely costly to hold (except for
>the punitive measures maneuver if it worked) but that depends on the
>individual situation.  Anyone using regular broadcast radio comm would be
>subject to orbital bombardment, I think.  As invader, I'd tell the
>populace "broadcast and be blasted".  

Given that it's a meson comm - how do you know that it's broadcast?
Anyway, distributing them to a few people is no problem. Giving one to
*everybody* is no more difficult than, say, giving everyone in WWII
England a gas mask.

>Also, it would be majorly important
>to take out the GPS systems (orbital or ground-based) and non-broadcast
>communications systems.

That's why I suggested a precisely known fixed reference and inertial
system. It's self contained, needing no GPS system.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:37:02 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Phil Kitching wrote:

>swapping iv and v might be tempting - depending on distance.

The gizmo has line-of sight range. I'd suggest not using it on foggy
days.

>So at TL15 the entire device could look like a Star Trek
>(classic series) type I hand phaser with really impressive
>special effects?
>
>I think something that powerful needs a "Press Ok to continue"
>dialogue.

If the thing blue-screen-of-deaths at a bad time, you'll just die
embarrassed.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:11:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 08:50 PM 4/13/99 -0300, you wrote:
> 
> >        I know that there is a canon reference that the Vargr glassed one of
> >their own worlds after the Hivers "maipulated" it to the acceptance of using
> >sauces and flavorings on meats.  Apparently this is major heresy for
> Vargr....
> 
> That was the K'Kree nuking several of their own worlds that the Hivers had
> manipulated.  The Hivers and Vargr share no common borders.

Sorry, Doug -- Read it again. And this time, think "Ketchup"  ;)


- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:54:59 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Droyne world in Trojan reach?

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:32:00 PDT, Michael McKeown wrote:

> In the Droyne Alien Module there appears to be a droyne world in the 
> tobia subsector of the Trojan reach? Does anyone know the name of it? 

Ayldem (3013) A7407X4-D Po De A 804 Dr M2 VI

(from Travellers' Digest #20)



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

           "Mr. Singer... make it sew." -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:30:26 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Subsector/Sector Generation SW

Friends,

Can someone point me in the direction of a software package for W95/8 that
generates system data?  I am going to be foisting the characters in my
current game on a group of very high tech (TL-17+) worlds and need to do
some upp editing.

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:37:12 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 08:42 AM 4/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
>At 08:50 PM 4/13/99 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>        I know that there is a canon reference that the Vargr glassed one of
>>their own worlds after the Hivers "maipulated" it to the acceptance of using
>>sauces and flavorings on meats.  Apparently this is major heresy for
>Vargr....
>
>That was the K'Kree nuking several of their own worlds that the Hivers had
>manipulated.  The Hivers and Vargr share no common borders.

Shame.  Slow roasted K'Kree over a charcoal fire and basted with a good
sauce might be a hot item on the Vargr worlds.  And I'm sure some
industrious young Barker would use the hooves for Jello or glue.

Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:26:16 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Thomas Schoene wrote:

>I believe the Royal Navy has recently reinstituted the rank of Commodore as
>an actual rank/paygrade; in the past they had gone direct from Captain to
>Rear Admiral, with senior captains being appointed to positions as
>Commodores without a permanent change in rank.  

Yes. 'Till recently, you went from the top of the Captain's List to Rear
Admiral (Rank - Paygrade is a USN term). However, if you were in one of
a number of `one star' appointments as a Captain, you were frocked as a
Commodore (Example: Commodore, Amphibious Warfare - the head of the
amphibious part of the RN). 

However, with the drive to `jointness' between the three forces, and the
number of naval officers in essentially civilian parts of the MoD (like
the Procurement Executive as was), it was decided to reinstate the rank
of Commodore. It is still possible to skip it, though (IIRC).

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:37:21 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

Black ICE wrote:

>> Naval commands, in terms of number of personnel, tend to be smaller than
>> land commands. In terms of importance - would you rather lose a regiment
>> of troops (a Colonel's command) or a carrier (a Captain's command)?
>> 
>"Why, the carrier, of course," replied Colonel Erik von Oldenburg
>[current assignment: commanding officer, 1199th Imperial Infantry
>Regiment (Jump)].

Well, a regiment of jump troops can be replaced in seventeen years by
the part-time efforts of unskilled labour. OTOH, replacing that carrier
is going to be harder.

>Seriously, though, that question depends on the mission at hand.  After
>all, carriers (either wet navy or space-going) cannot seize and hold
>terrain.  OTOH, there are missions that require air power, something
>that your average infantry regiment lacks.

Let's look at it this way: There's an Imperial Regiment planetside.
There's a battleship in orbit that can pick up the troops and save them
from an imminent plastering by the big hostile fleet that just jumped
insystem - it'll take two days to pick them all up. However, the
battleship has just received, via fleet courier, news that a disabled
carrier one jump away is likely to come under attack in eight days.

Jump now and save the carrier; pick up the troops and lose it?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:50:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Meson Submarine Countermeasures
...
>Now, oceans are pretty shallow, so a decent gravitic sensor should let you
>pinpoint big lumps of not-water pretty accuratly.

  I happen to agree, but it could be pointed out that magnetic anomaly
detectors haven't yet made subs trivial to detect (but a few TL's may
make it the case).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #449
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 450



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
Re: Royals and the Military
Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Jet palnes was Re: Garbage
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 
OT:Ian Ferguson
Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: World Conquest
Re: Royals and the Military
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 
Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures
Re: Jet planes
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Jet planes
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
RE: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Messerschmitt
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
re: Subs and Sensors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:53:50 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

<jcarlino@home.com> wrote:
> Question on Meson guns. As I understand it Meson guns consist of two neutral
> particle beams that cause an explosion where they meet. 

Not exactly - the two particle streams intersect and produce 
mesons, which then go off to the target and decay into high 
energy photons (aka x-rays or gamma rays). 

(Mesons ordinarily decay almost instantaneously, but as per 
HG, when accelerated to high (relativistic) speeds, they can 
last long enough to reach their target. Along they way, they 
don't interact with other particles much, so not much can stop 
them. (I'm not enough of a physicist to know if mesons can 
really go through the bulk of a planet - anyone else?))

If the intersection of the beams created the explosion, meson
guns couldn't fire through stuff as per canon - the particle
streams wouldn't pass through. 

If you set up the particle streams in such a way that they 
tended to create slow mesons, the mesons would decay at (or 
very near to) the point of the intersection, but since you'd 
already have two particle beam weapons able to fire at that 
spot, you wouldn't need the mesons. 

This is just a guess, but I also imagine that you'd need to 
hit the particle beams together at a narrow angle to create
mesons going precisely fast in a precise direction.

I believe, but am not certain, that both neutral-particle 
and charged-particle interactions can produce some types
of meson, but I'm not sure what types are most effective
for blowing up starships. IIRC, CT is silent as to the actual
method of meson production.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:06:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military

Howdy!

Douglas Berry wrote:
> One thing I've always wanted to do was a Navy based on the Age of Sail
> Royal Navy.  Midshipmen, Lieutenants, and Captains.  That's it.
> -- 
Actually, they had Commanders as well, at least in Napoleonic times.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

Russell Bornschlegel writes:
> (Mesons ordinarily decay almost instantaneously, but as per 
> HG, when accelerated to high (relativistic) speeds, they can 
> last long enough to reach their target. Along they way, they 
> don't interact with other particles much, so not much can stop 
> them. (I'm not enough of a physicist to know if mesons can 
> really go through the bulk of a planet - anyone else?))
Well, the entire meson gun physics is gobbledygook, because decay doesn't
behave like that (half-life X means that half of all particles will decay by
time X, not that all the particles suddenly decay at time X).  Aside from that,
mesons should pass through quite large quantities of matter, though traveller
probably overrates how much penetration they actually have (I think mesons
still react to the strong nuclear force, which would give them substantially
lower penetration than neutrinos).

> I believe, but am not certain, that both neutral-particle 
> and charged-particle interactions can produce some types
> of meson, but I'm not sure what types are most effective
> for blowing up starships. IIRC, CT is silent as to the actual
> method of meson production.

Any particle collision with sufficient available energy to hit the rest mass of
a meson (or more likely, a pair of mesons) can create mesons.  As far as
neutral vs charged, charged particles are realistically much easier to work
with, and there's no substantial difference in behavior if you just want to
create mesons.  As far as blowing up starships, for practical purposes all that
matters is the amount of energy.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:02:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>


>        I know that there is a canon reference that the Vargr glassed one of
>their own worlds after the Hivers "maipulated" it to the acceptance of using
>sauces and flavorings on meats.  Apparently this is major heresy for Vargr....

I thought that was the K'Kree *not* the Vargr, and was the Hiver
Manipulation which ended the K'Kree Hiver war? Vargr are GM doggies who eat
meat, K'Kree are psychotic, militant, xenophobic herbivores who deserve to
be glassed. YMMV on that one ;-)

>        Also, the K'Kree in a JTAS article explicitly indicate *they* have
>no difficulty genociding a predator race.

The G'naak set the precedent.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:18:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Jet palnes was Re: Garbage

 Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
>        In 1944 Mescherschmitt (sp) had a two-turbine fighter jet in
>operation against Allied bomber groups.  Very distinctive looking plane,
>with the engines underslung from each wing.  The engines were almost as long
>as the fueselage, and it went like a scalded cat.

Me 262.  Didn't turn too well compared to the prop versions if I remember
correctly, but was good against the bombers.

ISTR they had a pilot killing rocket powered one as well (Komet?).

The UK had the Gloucester Meteor which was used to intercept V weapons.

Also I seem to remember that some of the Fw190's had 88mm cannon fitted -
is this true?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:07:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Well, you did disappear at the same time as he stropped off <grin, duck,
>>run>
>
><sounds of a BFFG being warmed up and pointed over the horizon in your
>direction>
>
>Oh, rilly?

<call for immediate evac>

Anyway, welcome back. Clif has disappeared slightly ahead of being dropped
from the list. Rob Prior has also taken a sabbatical to less volatile areas.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:15:48 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: OT:Ian Ferguson

Ian,

Thanks for the HG spreadsheet - would have responded to you directly but
your email is bouncing my replies.

Dom

PS apologies for the bandwidth to everyone else.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:34:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Just when you thot it was *SAFE* 

>  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Well, you did disappear at the same time as he stropped off <grin, duck,
> >>run>
> >
> ><sounds of a BFFG being warmed up and pointed over the horizon in your
> >direction>
> >
> >Oh, rilly?
> 
> <call for immediate evac>
> 
> Anyway, welcome back. Clif has disappeared slightly ahead of being dropped
> from the list. Rob Prior has also taken a sabbatical to less volatile areas.

Clif I could care less about.  I'm gonna miss Rob tho.  <sigh>

So who's up in the points standings for the Great Piracy Debabe right now?  <ducking>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:39:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 

> Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> 
> 
> >        I know that there is a canon reference that the Vargr glassed one of
> >their own worlds after the Hivers "maipulated" it to the acceptance of using
> >sauces and flavorings on meats.  Apparently this is major heresy for Vargr....
> 
> I thought that was the K'Kree *not* the Vargr, and was the Hiver
> Manipulation which ended the K'Kree Hiver war? Vargr are GM doggies who eat
> meat, K'Kree are psychotic, militant, xenophobic herbivores who deserve to
> be glassed. YMMV on that one ;-)

It was the K'kree that glassed a world.  Dunno bout them deserving a glassing 
though.  I hear they taste *great* with some teriyaki sauce...

BTW, you forgot 'unrepentant'.  Whacking out the G'naak didn't bother them at 
all.  They were *PROUD* of that.

> >        Also, the K'Kree in a JTAS article explicitly indicate *they* have
> >no difficulty genociding a predator race.
> 
> The G'naak set the precedent.

Um, the K'kree *whacked* the G'naak in a pre-emptive strike.  Seems they didn't think they could *ever* be safe around carnivores.  IMNSFBHO, they shoulda got spanked for that.

Methinks it might be time to thin the herds...  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:48:36 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> Shame.  Slow roasted K'Kree over a charcoal fire and basted with a good
> sauce might be a hot item on the Vargr worlds.  And I'm sure some
> industrious young Barker would use the hooves for Jello or glue.

Want my recipe for K'kree sauce?

> Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.
>

I still say the Vilaini eat their dead.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:38:57 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>You need to secure a landing zone for regular forces, as you say. There
>>are two options - take an existing one, or bring your own. Taking an
>>existing downport is going to be hard if the defenders have half a clue,
>>since even if your marines can bring overwhelming force to bear, the
>>facility is going to be wrecked. So we bring one with us.
>
>the advantage to taking the existing downport is that the defenders are
>probably going to be unwillingly to utterly destroy several billion credits
>worth of infrastructure.  A build your own downport is going to attract
>every attempt to utterly destroy it.

What country has ever failed to destroy or plan to destroy it's ports in
the even of an Invasion? In 1940, the UK would have wrecked Dover as a
port rather than let the Germans capture it intact - cost be damned.

It's also why we took two mobile harbours across the Channel with us
during Op. OVERLORD.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:36:58 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>One thing I've always wanted to do was a Navy based on the Age of Sail
>Royal Navy.  Midshipmen, Lieutenants, and Captains.  That's it.

Boys, landsmen, seamen, all the warrant officers (Surgeons, Masters et
al); Commanders, Commodores, and then Rear, Vice and (Full) Admirals of
either the Red, White or Blue Squadrons.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:33:53 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 06:02 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>iii. Using a hand laser rangefinder with an integral flux-gate compass,
>>measure the precise range and bearing to the target (just point it at
>>the target and press the button). Add this vector onto your location
>>from (ii) - you now know precisely where the target it.
>
>Today's Army has a laser designator that hooks into the GPS.  It knows
>where it is, and then it knows the precise bearing and range to the target,
>so it can uplink the taget's location to any interested unit.  Take three
>readings, and it'll give you velocity and heading information.

I'm betting that a force big enough to invade a planet has taken out the
GPS constellation - or is at least jamming the life out of it. Hence a
method that is completely self-sufficient.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:41:21 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Um...only if the resolution is quite good.  By and large, submarines have the
>same density as water...

Slightly less, by preference - that way, if you lose propulsion you
eventually start to rise. But that's overall - the large lumps of metal
(like the powerplant) are going to be much denser than the immediate
surroundings. A good hi-pen densiometer should stand a chance of getting
them.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:51:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 

> > Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.
> >
> 
> I still say the Vilaini eat their dead.

The *VILANI* developed rugby?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:54:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

Matt Clonfero writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> >Um...only if the resolution is quite good.  By and large, submarines have
> >the same density as water...
> 
> Slightly less, by preference - that way, if you lose propulsion you
> eventually start to rise. But that's overall - the large lumps of metal
> (like the powerplant) are going to be much denser than the immediate
> surroundings. A good hi-pen densiometer should stand a chance of getting
> them.

A submerged submarine is probably very close to the same density as water ;) 
Of course, this is because it has some tanks filled with water.

While you have to have _some_ dense areas in a submarine (if nothing else, to
make up for the low-density crew areas), I suspect you could (with careful
design and spacing) construct a submarine where no significant volumes (say, 4
dt or more) would vary from standard density by more than 20%.  Unless a
densitometer has a resolution of < 3 meters (as I recall, you can't use a
densitometer to get firing solutions, which suggests a _much_ lower resolution)
it wouldn't be able to detect a sub.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:03:42 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

SD Mooney wrote:
> 

> ISTR they had a pilot killing rocket powered one as well (Komet?).

Me263, yes a verrah nasty one, that. ISTR the fuel was something like
kerosene and hydrogen peroxide or fuming nitric acid....some sort of
hypergolic, anyway. The thing was mostly fuel tank, and there was only a
thin partition between the pilot and the peroxide tank. NOT fun stuff to
take a bath in.

> 
> The UK had the Gloucester Meteor which was used to intercept V weapons.
> 
> Also I seem to remember that some of the Fw190's had 88mm cannon fitted -
> is this true?

I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
battle tank gun at the time. 

They might have put some in bigger aircraft, like some of the Junkers
twin engine fighter/bombers.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:08:05 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > > Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.
> > >
> >
> > I still say the Vilaini eat their dead.
>
> The *VILANI* developed rugby?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
>

 Only in the broadest terms

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:40:54 GMT
From: jlindsay@home.com (James W. Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Jet planes

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:03:42 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> > Also I seem to remember that some of the Fw190's had 88mm cannon fitted -
> > is this true?
> 
> I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
> cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
> plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
> battle tank gun at the time. 

IIRC, some ME109s were equipped with a 30mm cannon that fired through the
"prop cone".



James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)

           "Mr. Singer... make it sew." -- Riker

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:50:35 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 11:48 AM 4/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>
>> Shame.  Slow roasted K'Kree over a charcoal fire and basted with a good
>> sauce might be a hot item on the Vargr worlds.  And I'm sure some
>> industrious young Barker would use the hooves for Jello or glue.
>
>Want my recipe for K'kree sauce?

Most certainly.  Perhaps we could get Ditzie to create a K'Kree zapper so
that we could pull a K'Kree hunt.  


>> Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.
>>
>
>I still say the Vilaini eat their dead.

Yeah, but can you turn old Uncle Eneri into a glue or paste that kids can
eat in pre-school?

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:56:51 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:39:49 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>Methinks it might be time to thin the herds...  <grin>
>
>Keven
>


Yeps, time to bring on the Pak!


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:42:42 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

Surely the ability of a world to persevere in the face of a 
blocade would depend on a number of things.

Environment
	Obviously, if a world has all the air, water, and food
	that the population requires, it will be much easier to
	go it alone. On the other hand, if a significant
	proportion of the world's food is imported (let's not
	get into the practicality of importing that much food)
	it may take time to increase local agricultural 
	production. But agriculture (at high TL) relies on
	industry...
Industry
	If the world lacks industry, farm machinery may start to 
	break down after sufficient time. Damaged facilities may 
	be difficult to repair, and some equipment may be in
	short supply unless stockpiled. Just how diverse local
	industry is may also be an issue, which may depend on 
	population...
Population
	Low pop worlds can be conquered relatively easily, and
	high pop worlds probably have a more diverse economy 
	that would be more self-sufficient for longer. On the
	other hand, very high-pop worlds may have trouble 
	feeding themselves, even on a garden world. Mid-pop
	worlds might be more likely to suffer industrial 
	shortages. Such shortages might have greater or lesser 
	effect depending on the society...
Society
	If the world is solidly pro-Imperial, it may put up with
	a lot in the faith that the Imperial Navy will return
	to deal with these bandits. If they are thoroughly
	decadent and insular, they might not care who's ruling 
	the spaceport and collecting the taxes. Psychological
	warfare is likely to be waged by the blocade fleet, 
	using the orbital high ground (and covert ops) to 
	influence popular opinion. The government might be bribed,
	but Imperial agents are likely to keep track of such things.

Just my cr. 0.02

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:37:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Messerschmitt

For the record, the correct spelling is "Messerschmitt" (I believe --
and having built probably a dozen models of various Messerschmitt
aircraft as a boy, I believe that the spelling is permanently graven
into my memory).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:52:17 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>

> Shame.  Slow roasted K'Kree over a charcoal fire and basted with a good
> sauce might be a hot item on the Vargr worlds.  And I'm sure some
> industrious young Barker would use the hooves for Jello or glue.

Ve Kfouzhangou, well-known Senior Chef to the Court of Lord Brzk, has
these comments:

"In wartime (between Vargr and K'kree), many patriotic Vargr restaurants
serve young K'kree as steak, prime rib, etc.  K'kree brains are often
eaten by Vargr troops after a battle.  In fact, K'kree are often
referred to by Vargr soldiers as "the prey that shoots back", and there
are many stories of Vargr collecting dead K'kree soldiers to be skinned,
cleaned, and turned into victory dinners -- and not just when supplies
are low.

"K'kree, being ungulate herbivores, make an excellent and natural food
for the Vargr; they are considered quite tasty when young, but get
stringy when old (like any ungulate herbivore).  The other major races
don't taste as good -- humans and Aslan eat too much meat; Hiver taste
distinctly weird and may be poisonous to Vargr; and Droyne meat is
greasy and tasteless."

At least, that's what's said in my Traveller universe.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:58:17 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Subs and Sensors

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are a number of problem here. No matter what you do, a TL15
submarine is going to displace its own volume of water when submerged
from the water column. Recent media speculation is that France has
developed a method for sensing this displacement from high
altitude/space. There are also any number of other signatures (acoustic,
magnetic, thermal to name three) that are never going to go away; but
are going to become more and more vulnerable to detection at the TL
increases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The water displacement is not a problem if your planet has a significant 
population of whales or other large sea life. Unless you want to add 
environmental devastation to the butcher's bill of taking the planet.

IMO every signature that becomes more vulnerable to detection at higher
TL's will also become easier to stealth, especially from under a couple
kilometers of water.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #450
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 451



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jet planes
Re: Messerschmitt
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Planetary Invasion
site update
Off-topic request
Re: Jet planes
Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
All this K'Kree bashing...
RE: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Re: Bladerunner
Re: site update
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: World Conquest...
The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma (was Re: Naval rank?)
Re: 101 Robots
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 
Re: Royals and the Military 
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)
Re: Jet planes
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: Jet planes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:17:21 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

Bruce Johnson posted:
>
>SD Mooney wrote:
>> 
>
>> ISTR they had a pilot killing rocket powered one as well (Komet?).
>
>Me263, yes a verrah nasty one, that. ISTR the fuel was something like
>kerosene and hydrogen peroxide or fuming nitric acid....some sort of
>hypergolic, anyway. The thing was mostly fuel tank, and there was only a
>thin partition between the pilot and the peroxide tank. NOT fun stuff to
>take a bath in.

You're thinking about the Me 163B Komet. The Me 163A
was a trainer version. Quite a few pilots were lost
while landing thanks to that thin partition you
mentions. An excellent website for this thing is at:
http://www.kolibri.lr.tudelft.nl/people/students/fun/rob/model163.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:29:39 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Messerschmitt

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
: For the record, the correct spelling is "Messerschmitt" (I believe --
: and having built probably a dozen models of various Messerschmitt
: aircraft as a boy, I believe that the spelling is permanently graven
: into my memory).

A dozen of 'em?  Wow, that's "a whole mess of Messerschmitts!"


(my apologies to Daffy Duck and the rest of the TML, but I couldn't
resist)


V.Adm. C. D. Michael, SWN-GF
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
http://www.downport.com/ct

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:36:30 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
: "K'kree, being ungulate herbivores, make an excellent and natural food
: for the Vargr; they are considered quite tasty when young, but get
: stringy when old (like any ungulate herbivore).  The other major races
: don't taste as good -- humans and Aslan eat too much meat; Hiver taste
: distinctly weird and may be poisonous to Vargr; and Droyne meat is
: greasy and tasteless."


Hmm, I never really liked K'Kree before, but I guess I'll have to try
them again!



++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Visit the Subsidized Merchant on www.downport.com : A domain for
Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:26:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 07:33 PM 4/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>Today's Army has a laser designator that hooks into the GPS.  It knows
>>where it is, and then it knows the precise bearing and range to the target,
>>so it can uplink the taget's location to any interested unit.  Take three
>>readings, and it'll give you velocity and heading information.
>
>I'm betting that a force big enough to invade a planet has taken out the
>GPS constellation - or is at least jamming the life out of it. Hence a
>method that is completely self-sufficient.

According to a friend at DARPA, they're working on a set that remembers
where it is, and if the GPS net goes down can keep track of its movements.
yes, the inertial locator is on it's way!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:46:45 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: site update

For those that don't regularly check (I know some of you do from the site's
stats :) I've updated my site with a couple of new pictures.  One of them is
a "Starports" cover out-take.  We'll be going with a different layout for it
so I've posted that one for everyone's enjoyment.

I'm still working on the Sulieman tutorial (as I was out sick for four days)
and am done with the modeling section.  Once I finish the texture section,
I'll post it.

I'm also working on Roger's and my entry for the Starship Showcase project.
Coupla' days maybe?  I'm doing some interior shots as well as the usual
deckplans and exterior :)

Best,
Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:49:50 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Off-topic request

Gentles,

Anybody have or know of a copy of Gene Wolfe's _Shadow of the Torturer_,
specifically, the first printing by Timescape in 1981? I need to know the
name of the artist on the cover poainting, and the relevant section of my
copy's cover is gone...

We now return you to the regular discussion...



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:52:04 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

James W. Lindsay posted:
>
>On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:03:42 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> > Also I seem to remember that some of the Fw190's had 88mm cannon fitted
- -
>> > is this true?
>> 
>> I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
>> cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
>> plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
>> battle tank gun at the time. 
>
>IIRC, some ME109s were equipped with a 30mm cannon that fired through the
>"prop cone".

They did.

The Focke Wulf 190 packed quite a punch with four 20mm cannons
and two 13mm machine guns. It was slower than the 109, IIRC.
The Me 109 was also the better of the two in terms of turn
radius but it had the annoying habit of losing its wings when
it tried to pull out of a high-G power dive. This was one way
the U.S. P-47 Thunderbolt got away from them.

The best story I've heard about the 109 was actually a story
about the P-47 Thunderbolt (a flying tank). Seems a P-47
was flying home over the Channel when it was bounced by a 109.
The Thunderbolt pilot, being too low on fuel to dogfight,
could only jink somewhat, hunker down in his armored seat,
and just fly for the British coast.

The 109 came up on his tail and let loose from the nose 30mm
for about 15 seconds.

The Thunderbolt kept flying.

The 109's pilot let off with a second, 30-second burst from
the 30mm then stopped.

The Thunderbolt kept flying.

The 109 flew off to the side and rear of the P-47 for about
a minute then came up behind a third time and fired for
another 30 seconds.

The Thunderbolt kept flying.

The Me 109 pilot brought his aircraft alongside the P-47,
saluted the Thunderbolt's pilot, then peeled off and headed
back for Germany. He had run out of ammo.

The P-47 pilot made it back to his base and landed his aircraft
with two flat tires, about 16 inches missing from one wing, a
largish hole in the other, most of the tail gone, and a frame
ventilated with about 100 holes.

Like I said, a flying tank.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:01:21 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

Anthony Jackson writes:
> Well, the entire meson gun physics is gobbledygook, because decay doesn't
> behave like that (half-life X means that half of all particles will decay by
> time X, not that all the particles suddenly decay at time X). 

I can't believe I forgot that. That does apply even if the 
individual particles are all created simultaneously, yes?

So you just get a line of meson decay, all the energy spread 
out across the space between you and your target and beyond.
Not very useful. One more reason to toss meson weapons out of
MTU, which I did weeks ago anyhow.

> Aside from that,
> mesons should pass through quite large quantities of matter, though traveller
> probably overrates how much penetration they actually have (I think mesons
> still react to the strong nuclear force, which would give them substantially
> lower penetration than neutrinos).

So they'll penetrate a starship hull okay, but probably can't
be fired through a whole planet?

- -RB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:07:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: All this K'Kree bashing...

I'd like to complain about all the racist remarks being made about the
Centaurs.  Just cuz a race developed its entire space program,
electromagnetics technology and world society for the sole purpose of
wiping out another intelligent species is no reason to consider them evil!
:-) 

On a more serious note, I wonder if all this "eating K'Kree" stuff might
make an interesting plot hook/campaign device.  Let's say the K'Kree find
a cult of humans in the Imperium that's practicing this.  Can you say
genocidal war?  The K'Kree would go absolutely bonkers!  I have to admit
I've always wanted a big K'Kree/Imperium war, just cuz the centaurs make
such cool and vicious adversaries.  This would be the thing to spark it, I
think. The K'Kree are pretty insular by 1100, but that would change fast
if they found out someone was actually predating on them again after so
many millenia!  And I doubt Hiver manipulations could act fast enough to
stop this sort of instinctive spasm war...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:21:56 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RE: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

Ian Ferguson posted:
>
>Surely the ability of a world to persevere in the face of a 
>blocade would depend on a number of things.

Jewell did it during the Fifth Frontier War and Terra's been
doing it for centuries. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:26:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net> writes:
> Has any one else out there in TV Land read
>more of Dick's writings than "Do Androids Dream"? Ain't he beautiful?

Yep, and thought provoking with stuff like the pre-persons.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:45:51 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: site update

Jesse,

When I started playing Traveller in '79 I was impressed with Wm. H. Keith's
artwork.  He defined the "look" of Traveller for me and I'm sure a lot of
others.  Sadly, he has not produced anything new for the game since the
early 90's.  

Well, now we have a new crop of gamers and I have to tell you that not only
have you inherited his mantle, but IMO you have taken Traveller artwork to
a new high.  

At work today I showed your pics to some co-workers when they asked what
Traveller was.  When they saw them they immediately became interested and
wanted to learn how to play the game.

Well done!



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:58:42 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

At 06:07 PM 4/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to complain about all the racist remarks being made about the
>Centaurs.  Just cuz a race developed its entire space program,
>electromagnetics technology and world society for the sole purpose of
>wiping out another intelligent species is no reason to consider them evil!
>:-) 
>
>On a more serious note, I wonder if all this "eating K'Kree" stuff might
>make an interesting plot hook/campaign device.  Let's say the K'Kree find
>a cult of humans in the Imperium that's practicing this.  Can you say
>genocidal war?  The K'Kree would go absolutely bonkers!  I have to admit
>I've always wanted a big K'Kree/Imperium war, just cuz the centaurs make
>such cool and vicious adversaries.  This would be the thing to spark it, I
>think. The K'Kree are pretty insular by 1100, but that would change fast
>if they found out someone was actually predating on them again after so
>many millenia!  And I doubt Hiver manipulations could act fast enough to
>stop this sort of instinctive spasm war...

Sound like an interesting scenario.  Does anyone have any K'Kree warships
on file that they would want to post?


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:59:28 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

That reminds me I need to send out invitations...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annual KKBQ
161-1112
Remember, BYOKK (and don't forget your beer either)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


> I'd like to complain about all the racist remarks being made about the
> Centaurs.  Just cuz a race developed its entire space program,
> electromagnetics technology and world society for the sole purpose of
> wiping out another intelligent species is no reason to consider them evil!
> :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:55:07 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: World Conquest...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, 15 April 1999 2:06
Subject: Re: World Conquest


>At 06:21 PM 4/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>
>the advantage to taking the existing downport is that the defenders are
>probably going to be unwillingly to utterly destroy several billion credits
>worth of infrastructure.  A build your own downport is going to attract
>every attempt to utterly destroy it.
>
>Grabbing the world's downport also gives you all that nice infrastucture
>that you don't have to pack with you.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry

For the assault on Europe during WWII, the allies needed a port on the
French coast for rapid logistical support, to test out the idea of capturing
one, (in a nutshell) they sent the Canadians to invade Dieppe in force (it
was a port, relatively "lightly defended" enough for such a foray) which
turned into a dismal failure with valuable machines and equipment lost and
the sad destruction of of the Canadian troops, which would have amounted to
another beachhead at Normandy had they not been so utterly destroyed.

The lessons learnt were:-
1)  That the ARVE equipment, though lost in this folly, did indeed work
successfully.
2)  That the loss of men and equipment would be unreasonable in the assault
on Europe and unacceptable at home.

It was decided by the British that they would build a mobile port and put it
where they liked for use as the allies desired, which worked excellently
(although subject to the violently changing weather of the English Channel.

I would have imagined (though I never had to do it in any Traveller campaign
I ran), that the assaulting forces in such planetary landings would have the
same if not similar problems and would forgo using established "ports"
unless they were walk-overs, and simply land their own "Engineering Ships"
are a suitable location and radiate their attacks out from there?

Ports in low or high TL societies tend to be viewed as some of the most
strategic locations in times of war, and are thusly well guarded and
protected by the owners, and often attacked by the aggressors.  I would
imagine huge open structure starships similar to say, battle riders with
various starport modules that could be carried down to a planet's surface by
specialised engineering ships and modular cutters, perhaps even a streamline
rider-like vessel or two that could land as the centre piece/pieces (command
centres) of the port that the modules can be linked to.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:06:46 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma (was Re: Naval rank?)

Dear Folks -

Matt gave us a scenario and asked:
>Jump now and save the carrier; pick up the troops and lose it?

Depends on the ruleset and the relative TL's. Using the 5FW boardgame, I
needed to concentrate fire from half of one Zho fleet on *one* of the
4518th units to take it to half damage, let alone destroy it. The Sword
Worlders have an even more difficult time - put a few units of the 4518th
on Lanth and that *alone* halts the invading fleets.

Those TL 15 elite grav armoured units are *tough*.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:03:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 101 Robots

Yes. Why?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:26:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 

> 
> 
> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > > Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I still say the Vilaini eat their dead.
> >
> > The *VILANI* developed rugby?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
> >
> 
>  Only in the broadest terms

<shrug>  Coulda been worse.  They coulda developed golf, which *EVERYBODY* 
knows is a Hiver manipulation.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:25:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royals and the Military 

In a message dated 4/14/99 8:53:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< One thing I've always wanted to do was a Navy based on the Age of Sail
 Royal Navy.  Midshipmen, Lieutenants, and Captains.  That's it. >>

sounds fun, but I thought that the extra ranks developed from this structure 
to allow for the different hierarchal needs that a technological navy 
needed...

also, the "rag wagon" RN did have the rank of Commander (for the skippers of 
"less than frigate" commands, I think), albeit they were rare, as they tended 
to get "posted" to Post Captain. I think that the official time to get 
"posted" as a senior Capt. was three years..., The USN called them 
Master-Commandants...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:39:08 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

In a message dated 4/14/99 3:10:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca writes:

<< On a more serious note, I wonder if all this "eating K'Kree" stuff might
 make an interesting plot hook/campaign device.  Let's say the K'Kree find
 a cult of humans in the Imperium that's practicing this.  Can you say
 genocidal war?  The K'Kree would go absolutely bonkers!  I have to admit
 I've always wanted a big K'Kree/Imperium war, just cuz the centaurs make
 such cool and vicious adversaries.  This would be the thing to spark it, I
 think. The K'Kree are pretty insular by 1100, but that would change fast
 if they found out someone was actually predating on them again after so
 many millenia!  And I doubt Hiver manipulations could act fast enough to
 stop this sort of instinctive spasm war... >>

Unless, the war takes place after Strephon gets whacked; it'll be a real 
short war. The K'kree's claustrophobia makes their space and ground vehicles 
too inefficient....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:55:07 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)

In a message dated 4/14/99 9:15:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
brannonb@animal.blarg.net writes:

<< Sorry, Doug -- Read it again. And this time, think "Ketchup"  ;) >>

My spin is that the Vargr with their wonderful sense of subdued taste (as an 
example look at their clothing...) would probably add as much goofy spices 
and sauces to their meats as possible, and their cooking contests would end 
in gunfire...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:05:48 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jet planes

In a message dated 4/14/99 12:09:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
 cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
 plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
 battle tank gun at the time.  >>

They (FW 190) had two mg's on the engine cowl (8mms?) firing through the prop 
disk ala WWI fighters, and 4x20mms in the wings. I would guess that the 
bomber killers had 30mm's firing as underwing pods; not 88s. The ME109 had a 
prop spinner mounted 20mm cannon and two mgs (7.7mm?) firing like the 
FW...They did mount a large caliber (57mm?) cannon on a tank buster (don't 
remember which but remember it was a twin engine...). The US mounted a 75mm. 
howitzer in the nose on some B-25's and the recoil was brutal...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:09:41 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

In a message dated 4/14/99 1:59:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< Ve Kfouzhangou, well-known Senior Chef to the Court of Lord Brzk, has
 these comments:
 
 "In wartime (between Vargr and K'kree), many patriotic Vargr restaurants
 serve young K'kree as steak, prime rib, etc.  

<<snip>>

 At least, that's what's said in my Traveller universe.
 
 --Glenn
  >>

ROTFLOL!

ob Trav: are their any taboos about eating sentient creatures?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:35:04 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

Before you start your campaign research you need to read these two
series:

David Weber's Honor Harrington Cycle and  David Feintuch's "Nick
Seafort" Series

Honor Harrington: On Basilisk Station, Honor of the Queen,  The Short
Victorious War, Field of Dishonor,  Flag in Exile,  Honor Among Enemies,
In Enemy Hands, Echoes of Honor, More Than Honor (Collection, a must
have, author's article on Honor's universe should be read before reading
the series), World's of Honor (Collection , mostly about Honor's
treecat)

Nick Seafort: Midshipman's Hope, Challenger's Hope, Prisoner's Hope,
Fisherman's Hope, and Voices of Hope.

Of course you need to read all the C. S. Forester Hornblower novels, and
watch the A&E series (buy the videos), also reading the Patrick O'brian
Aubrey Maturin novels, starting with "Post Captain" wouldn't hurt
either. Or Alexander Kent (aka Dudley Pope of 'Ramage' fame) and his
hero Richard Bolitho. Or Phillip McCutchan's Halfhyde series ( late
victorian, pre dreadnought navy). Or Dewey Lambdin's Alex Lewrie
adventures (Tom Jones and Flashman meet Hornblower, a very bawdy set
sir!)

There are several Honor Harrington conversions for GZG's Full Thrust
available on the internet. E-mail me for the web sites. There is of
course David Weber and Honor Harrington websites up the yin yang, most
aren't very good.

Honor Harrington brings the feel of Nelsonian/Napoleonic british royal
navy "feel" to a future setting. Although in my strict opinion it's more
like the Georgian Navy (that's KIng George's I & II). My wife reads them
and she hates the "military s-f" genre (most of it's crap--she's right)
and I'd agree with her that they are borderline literary like O'brian's
work. In Honor's universe war is real, violent, disgusting, but
necessary and  (duck!) honourable; bureaucracy, especially admiralty
politics is of course them same in this timeframe  as it was in
Hornblower or Bolitho's time. Honor is four-dimensional, and is one of
the best developed characters in  SF. She is as real as Henri was in War
& Peace. She is also the strongest female character ever written by a
male SF writer this side of Heinlen's "Friday". A lot of people think
David Weber is a pseudonym of a female ex-navy author. David Weber, whom
I've met is very real, and has never served a day in the Navy, except as
an Admiral in "Starfire" (excellent counterpoint to "Fullthrust"), which
by the way he co-authored with Steve White, another good military SF
writer.

David Feintuch's Nick Seafort series is almost as good as Weber's but
Seafort is more insecure than the young Hornblower and somewhat
neurotic. The plots are almost straight out of nautical fiction without
much effort to translate them to a future setting. This series has more
luck and sheer coincidences in the plot to outdo your typical Men's'
Adventure series (Mac Bolan et al) or Regency Romances, never-the-less,
I would have killed for these books when I was fourteen because I felt
just like the seventeen year old Seafort, insecure, shy, and a little
bit to reticent to prove myself (hey, that's me now!!!) Hornblower
considered himself lucky, Seafort, damned/fated, but both won out
through intellect and courage.

OT: The Imperial Navy in the Third Imperium is more SNAFUed than the one
Honor serves in, it's larger and has over a thousand years to repeat the
same mistakes over and over and over again. Just imagine an admiralty a
thousand years old built on a ideal already three thousand years old.
Nelson's admiralty was a piece o' cake compared to Strephon's! Marines
and Navy carry cutlasses because the Bureau of Ordinance hasn't  revoked
the Article of War requiring their possession and use since it's
promulgation in 1738 ad!

MUSASHI (Who reads nautical fiction as his wife devours X-rated
Regency's)

Don't forget Bernard Cornwell's Richard Sharpe series a larger than life
hero from the ranks who winds up a Lt. Colonel by the end  in the
Peninsular Wars (1805-1814). "RIFLES READY!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:33:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jet planes

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Jet planes
...
>I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
>cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
>plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
>battle tank gun at the time. 
>
>They might have put some in bigger aircraft, like some of the Junkers
>twin engine fighter/bombers.

  Apparently work was done with some larger calibre recoilless weapons;
probably 37 or 40 mm weapons were the largest high-velocity CPR guns
that most airframes could operate (SWAG).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #451
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 452



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jet planes
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: Meson Guns
77 Quirks
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Selling
Re: Droyne world in Trojan reach?
Re: GTL to TL
Re: Government Type "M"
Re: Jet planes
Re:  All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)
Re: Jet planes
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Napoleonic Era ranks
Re: Jet planes
Live without trade? (longish)
Re: Jet planes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:27:08 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jet planes

In a message dated 4/14/99 2:55:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

<< 
 The best story I've heard about the 109 was actually a story
 about the P-47 Thunderbolt (a flying tank). >>

great story...I've heard it before. I like better the one about the new pilot 
who crashes into a brick building at several hundred miles an hour (I think 
he was ground hopping and hit it at a flat angle. He LEVELED the building, 
but walked away without a scratch...The "jug" was the toughest fighter of the 
war bar none....Republic had a reputation of building rugged "bring em' back" 
aircraft. The F-105 thunderchief had the same reputation in Vietnam...Their 
last aircraft before going out of business was the A-10 Thunderbolt II; nuff 
said...

Seth, a proud ex-Long Islander...and missing Republic and Grumman...

PS; if you ever find yourself on long Island; eat dinner at the 54th. Fighter 
Group restaurant on Rt. 109 in Farmingdale. They're literally next door to 
the airport (Republic...of course...:-) ), and while guilty of overpriced 
food, and a little "touristy"; they do have a superb display of the 54th. 
fighter group's pictures. They have Francis "Gabby" Gabrieski, "Hub" Zempke, 
and (forgot the first name) Johnson's picture's. The "Wolf Pack" as they were 
called successfully took away air superiority from the Luftwaffe's 
"Abbeville" boys. I think they killed over 1400 aircraft and lost only 2-300 
themselves..

enough of the propaganda... OB TRAV: Using this style of decoration for theme 
restaurants and bars during role playing...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:02:04 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

- ----------
> From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
> To: Traveller TML <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Subject: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
> Date: Wednesday, 14 April, 1999 6:35 PM

[snip]
> Of course you need to read all the C. S. Forester Hornblower novels, and
> watch the A&E series (buy the videos), also reading the Patrick O'brian
> Aubrey Maturin novels, starting with "Post Captain" wouldn't hurt
> either. Or Alexander Kent (aka Dudley Pope of 'Ramage' fame) and his
> hero Richard Bolitho. 

No, no, no.  Alexander Kent is a nom de plume for Douglas Reeman, who
writes WWII fiction and history under his own name.  Dudley Pope was a
different person (now deceased) who wrote both the Ramage age-of-sail
novels and some histories, both Napoleonic and WWII.

For my money, the Ramage books are probably better adventure fodder; they
have more over the top daring-do than the Bolitho books.  

[snip] 
> David Feintuch's Nick Seafort series is almost as good as Weber's but
> Seafort is more insecure than the young Hornblower and somewhat
> neurotic.

I gave up on these half-way through the first one, when I realized that
Nick Seafort is an idiot and a sadist.  I loathed him, and so did several
other people I know.  YMMV, obviously.  Don't buy the whole series; find
the first one used or in the library first.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:09:13 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote

> > > meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
> > >targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated

> >Assumes only 1 static meson site.

> No, once one meson gun has fired 3 times it can be triangulated on IF 
> the targeted site can be examined.  This would not apply for mobile 
> targets asthe angle of the attack could'nt be easily determined but 
> with things like buildings it should be doable after three shots per > weapon.

My understanding of meson guns was that they did their dammage to a
spherical area.  The more powerful the meson gun the larger this sphere
is.  If this is correct [I can't find a reference] then you are not
going to be able to tell where the shot came from.  Basically what will 
hapeen is that the meson gun will fire, the mesons will travel through
everything, the target will be reached, the mesons will appear in a
spherical area, and the dammage will be done.  How are you going to be
able to tell what direction the center of this sphere of destruction
came from?

If the meson gun fire were stopped by a meson screen 3 times you might
be able to triangulate based on running diagnostics on your meson screen
to identify where the attacks hit the screen.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:38:11 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: 77 Quirks

I decided to try my hand at a random "starship quirk generator"
system to add flavor to all those mass-produced ships out there
in various Traveller universes. It turned out to be a bit on 
the ambitious side, so I'm sharing the fruits of my labor.

The table and most of the quirk descriptions are in place; I 
should finish the descriptions this week sometime. 

http://www.rahul.net/kaleja/77quirks.html

The quirk page is somewhat tuned to my not-canon-compatible
starship design system, but by no means limited to that system:

http://www.rahul.net/kaleja/ships.html

And while I'm here, I'll plug my Youth In CT page again:

http://www.rahul.net/kaleja/youth.html

Feedback on all my pages is very welcome. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel
 kaleja@rahul.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:55:01 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

First, it's much much cheaper to make it yourself if you
are able.  It's also much more timely than waiting for
months and months for that 1,000,000 tons of lettuce
to arrive from Verge.

There must be that one critical component that everyone
uses, but noone can put together without a lot of collusion.
The part must be so hard to make, or such a big
industrial deal that worlds are FORCED to trade for it.
And what then?  Trade will be in a few select commodities
across far distances; all other trade will be local.

So what we need is to find a believeable reason that
the Imperium is compelled to have trade between worlds
separated by sectors.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:50:43 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Selling

I am going to put my whole travaller collection up for sale.   What is
the climate like here for such things?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:26:35 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne world in Trojan reach?

At 04:54 PM 4/14/1999 +0000, you wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:32:00 PDT, Michael McKeown wrote:
>
>> In the Droyne Alien Module there appears to be a droyne world in the 
>> tobia subsector of the Trojan reach? Does anyone know the name of it? 
>
>Ayldem (3013) A7407X4-D Po De A 804 Dr M2 VI
>
>(from Travellers' Digest #20)
>
>
>
>James W. Lindsay       Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
>"http://members.home.net/jlindsay"   ICQ:7521644 (Sharkey)
>
>           "Mr. Singer... make it sew." -- Riker

There was an adventure published in Third Imperium #5, back in 1987, that
takes place on (and off) this world.  It was about a group of Droyne who
build a starship on their reservation so they can go directly to the
subsector duke to petition him to free them from the reservations and the
local government.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:39:27 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: GTL to TL

At 12:36 PM 4/13/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Here is a list of Traveller TL's compared to GURPS from G:T 
>Traveller Tech Level      GURPS Tech Level
>0                               1-3
>1                                4
>2                                5
>3                                5
>4                                5
>5                                6
>6                                6
>7   Original Traveller           7    GURPS Traveller
>8    Jump Capability             8    Jump Capability
>9          1                     9          2
>10         1                     9          2
>11         2                     9          2
>12         3                    10          3
>13         4                    10          3
>14         5                    11          4
>15         6                    12          6
>16         6                    13          6

Only one minor problem with this "official" conversion.  On p157 of G:T,
the above is stated for maximum jump capability for that GTL.  GTL 11
should be 5, and GTL 10 should be 4 for converting.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:30:04 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

At 08:10 AM 4/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Government Type "M" is mentioned is Best of JTAS #1 page 26. 
>Author unknown:
>    "The government factor in the Universal planetary profile need not be a 
>number 0-9 or a letter A-F. For example, M could be used to indicate a 
>miliary government, perhaps a junta or coup."
>
>where is the refrence for the Alsan goverment type M located?
>
GDW's Alien Module 1:Aslan, p25, and DGP's Solomani & Aslan p88.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:28:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
> Subject: Re: Jet planes

> The best story I've heard about the 109 was actually a story
> about the P-47 Thunderbolt (a flying tank). Seems a P-47
> was flying home over the Channel when it was bounced by a 109.
> The Thunderbolt pilot, being too low on fuel to dogfight,
> could only jink somewhat, hunker down in his armored seat,
> and just fly for the British coast.

I remember this story well, but don't remember the pilot's name.  It's
in the pilot's war memoirs, which were co-written by, of course, Martin
Caidin (who co-wrote a lot of WW2 pilot memoirs).  (I think the book is
entitled "Thunderbolt!")  One interesting detail left out of your story
is that the pilot had chosen not to wear his goggles that day, because
they were awkward and not really necessary in the Thunderbolt's closed
cockpit.

Either in an earlier dogfight that day or in the "fight" with the Bf
109, holes were made in the forward windscreen and in some oil or
anti-freeze line.  The wind created a fine stream of oil/whatever
straight back into the windscreen and then into the cockpit -- and
directly into the pilot's face.  He couldn't close his unprotected eyes
(or keep them closed for long) and he of course couldn't change his
position.  As a result, he became blinder and blinder on the flight
home.  By the time he got to England, his eyes were swollen shut and the
skin around them was totally inflamed by a combination of the abrasive
and chemical effects of hours of exposure to the wind-driven oil.

The pilot didn't suffer any permanent injury to his eyes, and fought for
the rest of his tour -- but he always wore his goggles.

Another detail that I remember is that after one of his passes, the
German pilot flew beside the Thunderbolt, looked over at the American,
and saluted.  Then he banked away. The American thought he was gone, but
he came back and strafed him a few more times.

Regarding the Me 262, there is a famous photo of a B-17 whose fuselage
was nearly severed near the tail by an Me 262's cannon, but the plane
was able to return safely to England.  

Ob Traveller:  The combat rules and the design sequences necessarily
require some abstraction, so we don't get results like these from
rolling the dice in a combat session.  On the other hand, to preserve a
sense of fairness, the combat rules are fairly transparent, so if events
like these happen, it's definitely a referee call.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:39:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  All this K'Kree bashing...

> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

> On a more serious note, I wonder if all this "eating K'Kree" stuff might
> make an interesting plot hook/campaign device.  Let's say the K'Kree find
> a cult of humans in the Imperium that's practicing this.  Can you say

There's another angle.  Humans on Terra have developed a moral
prohibition against eating other humans.  Modern Terran societies try to
stop less developed societies from continuing the practice of
cannabilism (like in the New Guinea region).  In the Far Future, will
that prohibition have extended to a taboo against eating any other
intelligent species?

What about other humans (at least the Vilani and Zhodani)?  The Vilani
are from a planet with very few foods edible by humans without massive
processing.  Could their dark secret be that they were cannibals for the
first part of their history, until the shugili really figured out how to
process local flora and fauna?  I say dark secret, because Vilani and
Vargr doesn't address this at all, and, as it's written from the
perspective of a Vilani, if the Vilani did this and didn't want to hide
it, it would be mentioned.  

I don't remember Zhodani early history too well -- would they have been
pushed to cannibalism?

I'll leave discussion of the mores regarding consumption of one's own
species and of other intelligent species in Vargr, Aslan, and Droyne
societies to others.  I don't think that the Hivers eat meat at all,
just fungus.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:43:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com

> My spin is that the Vargr with their wonderful sense of subdued taste (as an 
> example look at their clothing...) would probably add as much goofy spices 
> and sauces to their meats as possible, and their cooking contests would end 
> in gunfire...:-)

Iron Chef is actually based on many popular Vargr holovid programs.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:49:13 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com

> They (FW 190) had two mg's on the engine cowl (8mms?) firing through the prop 
> disk ala WWI fighters, and 4x20mms in the wings. I would guess that the 
> bomber killers had 30mm's firing as underwing pods; not 88s. The ME109 had a 
> prop spinner mounted 20mm cannon and two mgs (7.7mm?) firing like the 
> FW...They did mount a large caliber (57mm?) cannon on a tank buster (don't 
> remember which but remember it was a twin engine...). The US mounted a 75mm. 
> howitzer in the nose on some B-25's and the recoil was brutal...

Remember that the FW 190 and the Bf 109 (that's the correct Luftwaffe
designation, by the way, not Me 109 -- I don't remember why, and all the
other Messerschmitts were Me ###) were in production for several years,
and were constantly being refined to meet enemy armor improvements,
changing battlefield roles, and other changing conditions.  I don't
remember anymore just what weapon configurations each went through.  It
seems to me that the Bf 109 had at least 7 different versions, Bf 109a
through Bf 109g.  I don't remember how many the FW 190 had.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:04:34 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> Most certainly.  Perhaps we could get Ditzie to create a K'Kree zapper so
> that we could pull a K'Kree hunt.

I prefer somthing in the 8mm mag class for the trophy, and closeair support
for it's friends.

> >> Ob Trav:  Using other races for fun, food, and profit.
> >>
> >
> >I still say the Vilaini eat their dead.
>
> Yeah, but can you turn old Uncle Eneri into a glue or paste that kids can
> eat in pre-school?

Got bones, don't he....

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:05:51 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

j a c wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:39:49 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
> <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> >Methinks it might be time to thin the herds...  <grin>
> >
> >Keven
> >
>
> Yeps, time to bring on the Pak!

Nope Frac-C rocks... The best for culling herds.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:07:11 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Droyne meat is
> greasy and tasteless."

How 'bouts tastes like chicken...

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:12:30 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

> Unless, the war takes place after Strephon gets whacked; it'll be a real
> short war. The K'kree's claustrophobia makes their space and ground vehicles
> too inefficient....

 Ever notice that their ships look like clay pigeons?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:13:16 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Napoleonic Era ranks

Douglas E. Berry writes:

>One thing I've always wanted to do was a Navy based on the Age of Sail
>Royal Navy.  Midshipmen, Lieutenants, and Captains.  That's it.

Commanders, Commodores, Admirals, Warrant Officers, Petty Officers, and
Volunteers too.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:04:52 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

>>I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
>>cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
>>plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
>>battle tank gun at the time.
>>
>>They might have put some in bigger aircraft, like some of the Junkers
>>twin engine fighter/bombers.
>
>  Apparently work was done with some larger calibre recoilless weapons;
>probably 37 or 40 mm weapons were the largest high-velocity CPR guns
>that most airframes could operate (SWAG).

The largest aircraft  mounted weapon that was actually used in combat that I'm
aware of was the standard Model 40 75mm AT gun with a special recoil system
and a very good muzzle brake mounted on Henschel 129 attack bomber. It had a
12-shot magazine. About thirty guns were produced and used on the Eastern
front from the summer of 1944. Reportedly, the first 14 missions knocked out 9
heavy tanks.

Reportedly, there was a similar weapon fitted to Russian Sturmoviks used in
anti-shipping role in the Murmansk area

The Luftwaffe also mounted the old Model 39 50mm on a "recoil-absorbing
medchanism and fitted it to a Ju88. It was originally hand-loaded by the crew
! This was developed into an auto-loading  system that carried a 22 round
magazine with a ROF of 45 rounds per minute. About  300 of these were deployed
on the Eastern front

Howevr, the prize for size in small aircraft goes to a _32pdr_ ( 94mm!)  AT
gun mounted on a Mosquito and succesfully fired, though this was not used in
combat as it happened after VE day. It used a very cleverly designed muzzle
brake to reduce the recoil.

What may have confused people about the Fw190 is that they _did_ mount a 30mm
60 _barrel_  (!)upward- firing gun mounted behind the pilots seat, on a Fw190
as an anti-bomber weaopon

There is also the Gerat 104 350mm gun mounted underslung on a Dornier 217
designed for anti-shipping use, with the weight of the 14000lb projectile
expelled from the front supposedly being balanced by firing a similar weight
object out the back, based on the USN Davis gun principle.
Again "never used in combat"

Frankie





>        Steven Hudson
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:37:05 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Live without trade? (longish)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, 15 April 1999 2:06
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?


>First, it's much much cheaper to make it yourself if you
>are able.  It's also much more timely than waiting for
>months and months for that 1,000,000 tons of lettuce
>to arrive from Verge.
>
  <Snip more of the same...>

I had young Dave around tonight, and he had a look at some of the e-mails
rolling of my desktop and this one caught his eye.  I personally have never
put a lot of thought into interstellar trade, but when he saw this he told
me how he looked at it and I felt it wasn't bad for a boy in his middle
teens...

He looks at the Empire (Imperium) much as he looks at the real world when it
comes to trade and commerce.  Places like the US can get buy with producing
virtually anything they like and if the rest of the world placed them on an
embargo, they wouldn't suffer a great deal.  But look at Australia, a huge
place which is mostly empty (I once heard in the 70's the analogy of one US
city [N.Y.?] was almost the entire population of Australia... give or take).
We do not manufacture everything we need here in this country, much less
domestic manufacture for domestic use.  What Australia makes well, it only
makes in small quantities, simply because if we had the number or
manufacturing bases required to make everything, the country would soon go
bust because we don't have the domestic market for it, and we cannot afford
to compete with other nations on a wide basis.

Same goes for Japan, only their problem is organic consumables like beef and
mutton, or even wheat.  Sure they can make all the little things with bells
and whistles and lots and lots of things with wheels... but they can't grow
what they need to support their own population.  many European countries are
in similar boats, with not being able to produce everything their own little
country needs, thus relying on imports of what they don't have, and the
ability to export what they have lots off.

Now, I'm not as up on the Traveller universe as I once was (I moved my PC's
about the Spinward Marches), so let's look at the hypothetical subsystem of
Ferd.  Ferd, if we are speaking metaphorically, has a system called US.
This system is large and has the ability to produce many things it needs and
lots of surplus, it is mainly industrial and heavily so.  US can produce
more than enough for itself than it needs, so it's surplus is regularly
shipped jump-3 to they system Asia, and can even afford to ship j-3 in the
other direction, free aid of equipment and supplies to the small, desperate
system of Central Africa!

The system Australis is J-5 from the US and ships little things there, but
mainly ships foodstuffs like dead animals to the system Asia just J-1 away,
and receives most of it's own technology requirements from the Asia system
in return.  It gets surprising little US trade other than the import of
sporting icons (not the sportsmen themselves, just the opportunity to
worship them) and other US culture (like wearing of hats backwards, singing
c... errr... rap, and so on).  Australis in return, export to the US,
comedians and holovids of pink starships crewed by hair blokes in frocks!
(Something that caught on in the Vargr Extents for a little while, but
proved not to be flamboyant enough)

Then along come the Zhodani who probably wouldn't even try to blockade the
US for fear of getting is clock cleaned... but lets say they do and for some
reason (short supply of MCr190,000,000,000.99 bolts to hold down the Navy's
grav-couches were in critically short supply and all their battleships and
carriers were grounded?) they succeed.  Peshaw!  The Zho's will have an
exceptionally long wait on their hands for this place to collapse!

They do the same with Australis, and I would personally believe that it too
would not fall quickly, because Australis would have the tech base to build
the factories it required... but I am sure, not at the same level of
efficiency as before because it would have to be able to import many key
components.

The do the same to the Japan system which, basically from my personal
studies of the place, would not be able to provide nourishment to it's
people and a great many would suffer!  Imagine a small world called New
Zealand?  One called Philippines?  How would these systems fare?

In the real world, South Africa suffered an embargo because of it's stand on
human rights (apartite... spelling?) and it ended up producing all it needed
that it couldn't get from other countries, like cars, weapons, even
aircraft.  It didn't produce any ground-shaking stuff, but it survived for
years until they changed their stance and the restrictions lifted!  So in
our hypothetical subsystem, the largish world of South Africa already had
this demonstrate to them and they thumbed their nose at the Zhodani
blockading fleets!

But you are thinking, "These are whole worlds trading with other whole
worlds we are talking about!"  And right you are!  In r/l we are talking
whole countries trading with other countries!  Not every country can produce
everything it needs itself -- not every world can produce everything it
needs itself either!  Some will fare better than others, some will go down
real quick if trade is cut off!  Look at the shortages in the former USSR.
Look at some of the poorer former Soviet Bloc countries since independence.
Look at many African nations.  If these places were blockaded further, how
would they stand?  Look further at Iraq... one of the richest countries in
the world, but their people are suffering shortages because of sanctions
too.

You have one country trading from several other countries... you will have
in most Traveller universes, one system trading with at least several other
systems.

As you may have guessed, I paraphrased most of what the lad said, but it was
nonetheless a good way of explaining how some will last much longer than
others... if they fall at all without trade.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:23:03 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

At 23:49 14/04/1999 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Remember that the FW 190 and the Bf 109 (that's the correct Luftwaffe
>designation, by the way, not Me 109 -- I don't remember why, and all the
>other Messerschmitts were Me ###)

Originally, the Bf was the abbreviation for the company
Bayerische Flegzeugwerke. After the Bf108, 109 and 110 the abbreviation
changed to Me for Willi Messerschmitt.

Similarly, the later developments of the Fw190 (Focke-Wulf) were given
the code Ta152, after the designer - Kurt Tank.

I knew the basics of this, but the spellings came from

	http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/

which looks to be a very interesting site.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #452
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 453



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bladerunner
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: 101 Robots
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Can an Imperial world die without trade?
Re: Selling
How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: Jet planes
Re: Jet planes
Re: Selling
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: Jet planes
Re: Meson Guns
Oekhsos the Vargr Leader
Re: Selling
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Jet planes
Re: Selling
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures
Re: Meson Guns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:14:17 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

>Has any one else out there in TV Land read
>more of Dick's writings than "Do Androids Dream"? Ain't he beautiful?

Yes. "Our Friends from Frolix 8" being particularly useful for Traveller
aliens. "Dr. Bloodmoney" to confuse Twilight 2000 players, and "The Man in the
High Castle" for all sorts of reasons
I also liked "Deus Irae" which was written with Roger Zelazny, another useful
author to bring in because of things like "To Die in Italbar" and "Damnation
Alley"

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:28:42 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

>Before you start your campaign research you need to read these two
>series:
<snip>
>Honor Harrington brings the feel of Nelsonian/Napoleonic british royal
>navy "feel" to a future setting. Although in my strict opinion it's more
>like the Georgian Navy (that's KIng George's I & II). My wife reads them
>and she hates the "military s-f" genre (most of it's crap--she's right)
>and I'd agree with her that they are borderline literary like O'brian's
>work. In Honor's universe war is real, violent, disgusting, but
>necessary and  (duck!) honourable; bureaucracy, especially admiralty
>politics is of course them same in this timeframe  as it was in
>Hornblower or Bolitho's time. Honor is four-dimensional, and is one of
>the best developed characters in  SF.

I'd also say that she owes a hell of a lot to Gordon Dickinson
The first Harrington novel is +almost+ a rewrite of "Tactics of Mistake" for
the Navy.

Also, I'd have to add "Shards of Honor" by Bujold. So similar ot Weber's book,
but much nastier, it almost reads like Haledeman's "Forever War" compared to
"Starship Troopers", and I'm almost certain the name of the book is an oblique
reference to Weber.

>Don't forget Bernard Cornwell's Richard Sharpe series a larger than life
>hero from the ranks who winds up a Lt. Colonel by the end  in the
>Peninsular Wars (1805-1814). "RIFLES READY!"

And the BBC television series based on it.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:40:41 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots

>Has anyone on the TML got a copy of 101 Robots?

No.

The others respondents are all lying as part of the great "101 Robots"
conspiracy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:44:01 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

So what we need is to find a believeable reason that
>the Imperium is compelled to have trade between worlds
>separated by sectors.

Simple, they just _wouldn't_ be an inter-stellar empire if they didn't,
dahling.

They do it to keep up appearances.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:51:31 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Can an Imperial world die without trade?

The thread has moved into the realm of thinking
how an advanced civilization would die without
interstellar trade.

1. Wot?   No food?
2. Wot?   No money?
3. Wot?   No union labor?

Executive Summary

There are three things that must be traded for
an interstellar society to thrive.  Nutrients in the soil,
built up over millenia of cultivation of human-edible
plants, are simply not existent in large enough quantities
to support a sustainable population.  Thus food
groups must be traded, sometimes across great distances.
Banks must constantly be in communication to
sustain investor confidence, collection schedules,
and to maintain or adjust economic trends.  Finally,
industrial components are in wide demand on most
worlds, because they lack the infrastructure to maintain
their technology.



1. Wot?  No Food?

What sprung into my mind was food production.
It may be likely that these so-called "hospitable"
worlds aren't so hospitable in the long term.  There
may well be a scarcity of critical minerals or vitamins
that would spell death from malnutrition within a
year for most of the population.  I can handwave
that by saying most worlds haven't had human-edible
plants and animals on surface long enough to unlock
these ingredients from the land... and then I'd add
to the handwave, saying it may take from 1000 to
1,000,000 years for these ingredients to propogate
in sufficient quantities to support a population:

I'll assume soil quality cannot exceed world size
unless technology intervenes.

soil quality           population supportable
A                      A
9                      9
8                      8
7                      7
6                      you get the picture...

years w/human plants   soil quality
10                     1
100                    2
1000                   3
10,000                 4
100,000                5
1,000,000              6

Terra, world size 8, has a soil quality of 6 or greater.
Technology has augmented this to where we could
support tens of billions -- add [tech level / 4] or so.


Of course, modifiers out the wazoo are required, since
some worlds have nasty but breathable atmospheres...

Now I'll deal with agricultural worlds.  Surely they of all
worlds can live on their own if necessary?  I guess I have
to say no.  There are three types of Ag worlds:

"Field worker worlds" which rely on humans and animals
to do all the work.  They won't suffer from technological
breakdown, but will be decimated if they lose contact with
worlds which supply various chemicals needed that the
ecosystem doesn't yet produce much of.

"Corporate Farms" which use tractors, combines, whatever
to do planting and harvesting.  These worlds will suffer
because, according to the rule of specialization, they're
probably geared NOT to make this equipment but to
produce produce produce.  After all, there are 750 worlds
nearby which don't produce a chemical that this ecosystem
produces en masse... and everybody loves arugula, don't
they?

"Hyroponia" which are automated with state-of-the-Imperium
TL 15 doo dads, while the few owners live in the lap of
luxury.  This industry will die a horrible death when trade
breaks down; however, if the population is small to begin
with, and the world is large enough, most of the population
will survive; however, they will be farming with hoes and
rakes after the crash, and will have no time to study for
their Master's degree.


2. Wot?  No money?

A serious crisis, such as a massive invasion by bug-eyed space
aliens or internal rebellion, would send consumer confidence way
down and cause them to stop spending money.  War would
consume the budget, the space lanes would get treacherous,
and banks foreclose on traders and themselves shut down.
Massive economic collapse would doom industrialized worlds
and all automated factories, since there's no money to be made.


3. Wot?  No union labor?

With economic collapse, people stop working and an Imperial-
sized depression hits the Galanglic-speaking cosmos.  Trade
slows down, triggering more collapses as the house of cards
falls.  When trade between agricultural worlds fail, critical
nutrients cease circulation, and people die by the trillions each
year, thus feeding the cycle.  One out of a hundred worlds
has the right soil and industry to continue on, but most worlds
never had the ability to go it alone.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:04:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Selling

- --- Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net> wrote:
> I am going to put my whole travaller collection up
> for sale.   What is
> the climate like here for such things?
> 
> 
> 
I might be interested, depending on what's in it and how much you're
selling for.
===

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:07:47 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: How hard it can be to kill a world!

I just read the post comparing countries to worlds, and
I think I've heard that argument before, but it's not a
very satisfying analogy.

The impetus for Imperial trade cannot be the same
kind of survival need that countries have.

Actually, the post itself makes sense: there are worlds
which are obviously dependent on the Imperium for
"survival trade".  However, there are a significant
number of worlds that don't fit this description.  One
can peruse world lists and find plenty o' worlds that have
good air, "enough" water, a "C" or better starport,
and 50 million people.  There are worlds that are not
"industrial" and don't have tainted air... there are worlds
that aren't marked "agricultural" but all that means is
that they're not major _exporters_ of food.  Why would
these worlds fail?

There are _too many_ worlds like those above: not
overspecialized, and flexible enough to meet challenges.
Now, the Imperium might not be the Imperium without
trade, and would be much much smaller, so the 3I has a
vested interest in filling up as many worlds as possible.
But a significant number of worlds can survive fine without
trade.

I repeat, the impetus for Imperial trade cannot be the
same kind of survival need that countries have.  It must
be more desparate than that.  And that makes the Imperium
more delicate... which I kind of like, actually...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:23:05 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

>So what we need is to find a believeable reason that
>the Imperium is compelled to have trade between worlds
>separated by sectors.
>
>-Rob

Does the Canon sources ever say that there is trade between worlds sectors
apart except perhaps for hard to find luxuries like Denuli flame gems?
The original trade system allowed for such HUGE profits per dTon per parsec
that you could actually do it but as no system was that unique (systems
differed only in their trade classes) there was generally no idea.

The Merchant Prince and MT trade systems were even less interesting there
as the price per dTon of trade goods were never very high. I'm not shure
that long distance trade is necessary for Traveller but if somebody could
come up with a system that made it profitable for PCs then it would be a
good thing as it will promote longtrips out into the unknown leading to
interesting adventures.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:42:10 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

Hmmm, this sounds like fun.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Charles Collin 
>
>On a more serious note, I wonder if all this "eating K'Kree" stuff 
>might
>make an interesting plot hook/campaign device.  Let's say the K'Kree 
>find
>a cult of humans in the Imperium that's practicing this.  Can you say
>genocidal war?  The K'Kree would go absolutely bonkers!  I have to 
>admit
>I've always wanted a big K'Kree/Imperium war, just cuz the centaurs 
>make

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:51:44 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:05:48 EDT Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:
>remember which but remember it was a twin engine...). The US mounted a 
>75mm. 
>howitzer in the nose on some B-25's and the recoil was brutal...


Yep, the pilots reported that it felt like the plane stopped in midair
when fired.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:41:02 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:52:04 -0500 "Smart, David J (David)"
<dasmart@lucent.com> writes:
>
>The best story I've heard about the 109 was actually a story
>about the P-47 Thunderbolt (a flying tank). Seems a P-47

Aye, the plane was nick named the Flying Jug.  It was well known for
coming home from missions missing large pieces of wings, fuselage,
cylinders out of the engine, telephone wire wrapped in the prop, etc.  My
kinda plane.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:23:34 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Selling

On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Krazy Kat
<krazykat_13@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>--- Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net> wrote:
>> I am going to put my whole travaller collection up
>> for sale.   What is
>> the climate like here for such things?
>> 


What have ye and how much??

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:26:26 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

>I'd also say that she owes a hell of a lot to Gordon Dickinson
>The first Harrington novel is +almost+ a rewrite of "Tactics of Mistake" for
>the Navy.
>
>Also, I'd have to add "Shards of Honor" by Bujold. So similar ot Weber's book,
>but much nastier, it almost reads like Haledeman's "Forever War" compared to
>"Starship Troopers", and I'm almost certain the name of the book is an oblique
>reference to Weber.


Me I personally prefer "Bill, the galactic hero" by Harry Harrison, a
superrealistic depiction of futuristic warfare, heroism, honour and bravery
as mankind carves out its future among the stars.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:31:27 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

At 10:05 PM 4/14/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/14/99 12:09:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
>
><< I think some variants had a 20mm cannon in them, firing through the prop
> cone...maybe they made an under belly 88mm pod? The 190, though a rugged
> plane, wasn't up to firing an 88, I would think. I mean, that was a main
> battle tank gun at the time.  >>
>
>They (FW 190) had two mg's on the engine cowl (8mms?) firing through the prop 
>disk ala WWI fighters, and 4x20mms in the wings. I would guess that the 
>bomber killers had 30mm's firing as underwing pods; not 88s. The ME109 had a 
>prop spinner mounted 20mm cannon and two mgs (7.7mm?) firing like the 
>FW...They did mount a large caliber (57mm?) cannon on a tank buster (don't 
>remember which but remember it was a twin engine...). The US mounted a 75mm. 
>howitzer in the nose on some B-25's and the recoil was brutal...
>

The B-25H.  Nasty.  They did not build many of this variant but even the
normal B25 was nothing to play with.  17 50 cal. machine guns!  IIRC.  And
without it's bomb load it flew more like a giant fighter plane than a
bomber.  Good all around solid design.

Still modeling after all these year.  A B25 is on my short list of models to
build and I just recently found out that there is an H model kit!

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:31:38 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

At 07:09 PM 4/14/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
>> > > meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
>> > >targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated
>
>> >Assumes only 1 static meson site.
>
>> No, once one meson gun has fired 3 times it can be triangulated on IF 
>> the targeted site can be examined.  This would not apply for mobile 
>> targets asthe angle of the attack could'nt be easily determined but 
>> with things like buildings it should be doable after three shots per >
weapon.
>
>My understanding of meson guns was that they did their dammage to a
>spherical area.  The more powerful the meson gun the larger this sphere
>is.  If this is correct [I can't find a reference] then you are not
>going to be able to tell where the shot came from.  Basically what will 
>hapeen is that the meson gun will fire, the mesons will travel through
>everything, the target will be reached, the mesons will appear in a
>spherical area, and the dammage will be done.  How are you going to be
>able to tell what direction the center of this sphere of destruction
>came from?
>
>If the meson gun fire were stopped by a meson screen 3 times you might
>be able to triangulate based on running diagnostics on your meson screen
>to identify where the attacks hit the screen.
>

The mesons have velocity so the 'sphere' will be moving.  The 'skid mark'
made by the 'blast' will be an arrow pointing tward the meson gun.  You do
not toss something at near c and have it stop instantly just because it
changes state.  That velocity has to go somewhere.  Also as someone else
said it is more likely to be a cylinder than a sphere.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:05:16 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Oekhsos the Vargr Leader

Did anybody notice the difference between the Oekhsos mentioned 
in the Rebellion Sourcebook and the one depicted in BtC ? Or are they the 
same ?I wouldnt say so, because in the RS hes just a media illusion whereas 
BtC implies that hes a real Vargr. Maybe Loren can tell us if that was done 
on purpose by him 
and/or SJG to or if it was an accident...or whatever !

"Dont call my Marine character cardboard - He likes
 to be called 'dimensionally challenged'."
   -politically correct munchkin 

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:05:13 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Selling

In einer eMail vom 15.04.1999  05:00:45, schreiben Sie:

<<  am going to put my whole travaller collection up for sale.   What is
 the climate like here for such things?
  >>

Very good indeed...just tell me what it consists of name a price and the 
money could be underway in a moments notice...
Andreas 'Greedy' Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:08:59 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

Date sent:      	Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:07:47 -0500
From:           	Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>

>I repeat, the impetus for Imperial trade cannot be the
>same kind of survival need that countries have.  It must
>be more desparate than that.  And that makes the Imperium
>more delicate... which I kind of like, actually...

1.  Food. IIRC Terran life is based around left handed amino acids, but
    there is no reason why an alien ecosystem can't use right handed
    amino acids. So right away 50% of the seemingly self sufficent worlds
    require the import of either a) an entire ecosystem (from bacteria up)
    or b) food. Add in lack of trace elements and you can probably cross
    off around 60% to 70% of such worlds.

2.  Specialisation. Despite the Imperium being nominally TL 15, the
    average is probably closer to 11-12. Now working on the exchange rates
    for various worlds given in JTAS and Striker, its a lot more economic for
    high tech worlds to import common comsumer goods from moderate
    tech worlds than to produce them themselves. Likewise it is
    uneconomic for moderate tech worlds to invest is specialist production
    facilities for high tech goods.

3.  Depression. The collapse of interstellar commerce would lead to the
    collapse of consumer confidence. As a result they would spend less,
    creating a depresive spiral.

4.  Tertiary Services. Industries such as banking and insurance are very
    likely to be heavily concentrated on high tech worlds. When contact is
    lost, so is the money/credit vital to drive an industrial economy.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:05:14 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jet planes

In einer eMail vom 15.04.1999  07:57:04, schreiben Sie:

<< Remember that the FW 190 and the Bf 109 (that's the correct Luftwaffe
 designation, by the way, not Me 109 -- I don't remember why, and all the
 other Messerschmitts were Me ###) >>

Thats because the 109 and 110 were produced by the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke.
( BTW Bf was founded by Ernst Udet, for those who know him.) They were still 
a 
Messerschmitt design who had bought the company in his early years.
Andreas Reimer 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:30:09 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Selling

> am going to put my whole travaller collection up for sale.   What is
>  the climate like here for such things?
>
Are you going to sell the whole thing as one lot, or split it up? You
probably have many things I'd want, plus a lot of duplicates.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:52:03 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Walter G. Smith wrote:

>The water displacement is not a problem if your planet has a significant 
>population of whales or other large sea life. Unless you want to add 
>environmental devastation to the butcher's bill of taking the planet.

Oh, but it is. Ever seen a 7500 ton whale? Or one that does 40 knots? Or
one that, on checking, seems to have an associated neutrino source.

OTOH, if your planet is home to a few pods of kraken...

>IMO every signature that becomes more vulnerable to detection at higher
>TL's will also become easier to stealth, especially from under a couple
>kilometers of water.

I disagree. It's like warheads and armour - no matter how good the
armour is, you can always get a warhead through it.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:48:24 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Meson Submarine Countermeasures

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>> >Um...only if the resolution is quite good.  By and large, submarines have
>> >the same density as water...
>> 
>> Slightly less, by preference - that way, if you lose propulsion you
>> eventually start to rise. But that's overall - the large lumps of metal
>> (like the powerplant) are going to be much denser than the immediate
>> surroundings. A good hi-pen densiometer should stand a chance of getting
>> them.
>
>A submerged submarine is probably very close to the same density as water ;) 
>Of course, this is because it has some tanks filled with water.

As I said, a well trimmed submarine will be (overall) slightly less
dense than water, to give it some natural buoyancy should it lose power.
You keep depth control by trimming the boat on the control surfaces. Of
course, below a certain speed you can't maintain depth control in this
manner.

>While you have to have _some_ dense areas in a submarine (if nothing else, to
>make up for the low-density crew areas), I suspect you could (with careful
>design and spacing) construct a submarine where no significant volumes (say, 4
>dt or more) would vary from standard density by more than 20%.  Unless a
>densitometer has a resolution of < 3 meters (as I recall, you can't use a
>densitometer to get firing solutions, which suggests a _much_ lower resolution)
>it wouldn't be able to detect a sub.

The densiometers in MT have a penetration stat, but not resolution.
However, the footnote says that they can provide a density map out to
their penetration. I'm guessing that you'd notice the discontinuity
caused by a sub. Once you know roughly where it is, you can localise it
through other means.

Parts of a submarine that are likely to have a high density:
The powerplant.
Some part of the drive.
The computers & sensors.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:57:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

Charles Prevatte writes:

> The mesons have velocity so the 'sphere' will be moving.  The 'skid mark'
> made by the 'blast' will be an arrow pointing tward the meson gun.  You do
> not toss something at near c and have it stop instantly just because it
> changes state.  That velocity has to go somewhere.  Also as someone else
> said it is more likely to be a cylinder than a sphere.

Um...the fact that the mesons are moving doesn't mean that the sphere will be
moving, as the sphere and the mesons aren't the same thing.  However, I tend to
agree that there would be marks by which you could identify the direction from
which meson fire comes.

Unfortunately, they wouldn't be very accurate....3 shots within a 100 kilometer
area might let you determine position within, say, a 5 kilometer sphere....
This is not all that useful.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #453
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 454



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma (was Re: Naval rank?)
Re: Jet planes
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Can an Imperial world die without trade?
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
New solar system discovered/New superheavy element created
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Jet planes
TML FAQ Notice
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Selling
Re: Jet planes
Re: Bladerunner
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: 77 Quirks
Re: Jet planes
Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #453

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:07:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma (was Re: Naval rank?)

david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>Depends on the ruleset and the relative TL's. Using the 5FW boardgame, I
>needed to concentrate fire from half of one Zho fleet on *one* of the
>4518th units to take it to half damage, let alone destroy it. The Sword
>Worlders have an even more difficult time - put a few units of the 4518th
>on Lanth and that *alone* halts the invading fleets.
>
>Those TL 15 elite grav armoured units are *tough*.

How do they withstand Meson fire? Do TL-15 Grav Tanks have Meson
screens?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:11:02 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

Steven Hudson wrote:

>>They might have put some in bigger aircraft, like some of the Junkers
>>twin engine fighter/bombers.
>
>  Apparently work was done with some larger calibre recoilless weapons;
>probably 37 or 40 mm weapons were the largest high-velocity CPR guns
>that most airframes could operate (SWAG).

Most of the 37mm and 40mm cannons used in WWII were fairly low velocity,
giving them poor accuracy for air-to-air use. Most `large cannon'
aircraft were used either to intercept bombers (which need a serious
amount of light mg fire to knock down); or to plink tanks.

The 20mm cannon was about the biggest effective air-to-air weapon, for
fighter on fighter work.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:04:22 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>I'm betting that a force big enough to invade a planet has taken out the
>>GPS constellation - or is at least jamming the life out of it. Hence a
>>method that is completely self-sufficient.
>
>According to a friend at DARPA, they're working on a set that remembers
>where it is, and if the GPS net goes down can keep track of its movements.
>yes, the inertial locator is on it's way!

How do you think submarines navigate at the moment? Or aircraft before
the commercial release of GPS? Inertial navigation has been around for
years, but it was kinds large. It was easier (and more accurate, at the
time) to put GPS up than to miniaturise and ruggedise inertial systems.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:16:54 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world die without trade?

Rob Eaglestone posted:
>
>The thread has moved into the realm of thinking
>how an advanced civilization would die without
>interstellar trade.
>
>1. Wot?   No food?
>2. Wot?   No money?
>3. Wot?   No union labor?
>
>Executive Summary

Now you all know why I enjoy gaming
with this guy. Excellent post, Rob!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:42:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

On 04/14/99 22:55:01 you wrote:
>
>First, it's much much cheaper to make it yourself if you
>are able.  It's also much more timely than waiting for
>months and months for that 1,000,000 tons of lettuce
>to arrive from Verge.
>
>There must be that one critical component that everyone
>uses, but noone can put together without a lot of collusion.
>The part must be so hard to make, or such a big
>industrial deal that worlds are FORCED to trade for it.
>And what then?  Trade will be in a few select commodities
>across far distances; all other trade will be local.
>
>So what we need is to find a believeable reason that
>the Imperium is compelled to have trade between worlds
>separated by sectors.
>
>-Rob
>

Far Trader pg.10 has a more complete discussion of motivations for 
interstellar trade, but here's the factor that I think is most important for 
this discussion:
- -------------------------
I>Economies of Scale<I> are everything that makes it cheaper to produce 
things in bulk than a few at a time.  Investments in specialized machinery, 
specially trained technicians, dedicated suppliers, and long experience all 
make production more efficient.  These investments are also very expensive, 
and need to be paid off by making the best possible use of them.  This means 
producing and selling as many widgets as possible.  Technology has a way of 
making economies of scale ever more important.  As human knowledge advances, 
so to do the opportunities for greater and greater specialization into more 
and more obscure subfields.  All of these extraordinarily educated 
individuals and their equally specialized equipment are only cost effective 
if they can share their talents as widely as possible.  Since only a small 
fraction of the economy may use their very specific output, it is only the 
much larger interstellar economy that can provide a market large enough to 
support them. 
 
No single world could possibly support the web of specialist people and 
companies the Imperium's technological infrastructure requires.  This is why 
the halt of interstellar trade at the end of the Second Imperium caused a 
rapid technological decline and ushered in the Long Night.  This is also why 
in the Third Imperium merchants carry technology embodied in people and 
goods 100 parsecs to their destinations.
- ------------------

The Imperium doesn't have just _one_ "critical component" it has many.  And 
the higher the TL the more there will be and the more of them that will have 
to be produced off world.




- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:45:45 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: New solar system discovered/New superheavy element created

Just an FYI from the BBC:

Astronomers have discovered the first solar system other
than our own. It has three planets orbiting a star that
is 44 light years away. The star is called Upsilon
Andromedae and is easily visible to the naked eye.

Although Jupiter-sized planets have been found around
other stars, this is the first time more than one
planet has been found around the same star..or so the
story states.

Also, TK professor of physics Dr. Witeck Nazarewicz and
two other researchers -- one from Dubna, Russia, and the
other from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in
California will publish a report later this month on the
creation of Element 114 --  called for now ununquadrium
- -- which was produced by bombarding calcium isotopes with
plutonium isotopes. It's a superheavy element which has
been proven to be more stable than element 112 - just
like Dr. Nazarewicz's mathematical model predicted.

A link to the stories can be found at:
http://www.artigen.com/newswire/scitech.html

ObTrav:  Hi-TL sensors should easily be able to detect
Neptune-sized planets or larger in systems not
explored before. This should make exploration fairly
easy in regards to *knowing* the system a scout/military
vessel is jumping into has a fuel source. Lower TL 
merchants, however, may be taking a chance.

As for Element 114...darn if I know. Unfortunately, I'm
not up to speed on the commercial uses of superheavy
elements. Can anyone give a few examples of potential
use?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:52:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

On 04/15/99 16:23:05 Anders wrote:
>
>>So what we need is to find a believeable reason that
>>the Imperium is compelled to have trade between worlds
>>separated by sectors.
>>
>>-Rob
<snip>
>I'm not shure
>that long distance trade is necessary for Traveller but if somebody could
>come up with a system that made it profitable for PCs then it would be a
>good thing as it will promote longtrips out into the unknown leading to
>interesting adventures.
>
     One of my goals in designing the trade system in Far Trader was to make 
long trips by PCs viable.  In fact, accepting long distance cargos when 
prices are good is one of the best ways for players with J-2+ ships to make 
money.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:52:30 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

"Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
 says:

>Also, I'd have to add "Shards of Honor" by Bujold. So similar ot Weber's 
book,

>but much nastier, it almost reads like Haledeman's "Forever War" compared to

>"Starship Troopers", and I'm almost certain the name of the book is an 
oblique

>reference to Weber.


 Nope. Bujold's book was written in 86, years before Honor Harrington made 
her first appearance ("On Basilisk Station" is 1993).

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:59:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

On 04/15/99 09:07:47 you wrote:
>
>I just read the post comparing countries to worlds, and
>I think I've heard that argument before, but it's not a
>very satisfying analogy.

     It is interesting to note that the average Imperial world (particularly 
in the Marches) is cosiderably smaller than the average Terran country.  This 
implies that Imperial worlds will be even less able to produce all of their 
needs than most Terran countries.  Considering the much more hostile 
environments most Imperial worlds have, I think we have very good reasons for 
trade.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:28:06 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

j a c wrote:

>>The best story I've heard about the 109 was actually a story
>>about the P-47 Thunderbolt (a flying tank). Seems a P-47
>
>Aye, the plane was nick named the Flying Jug.  It was well known for
>coming home from missions missing large pieces of wings, fuselage,
>cylinders out of the engine, telephone wire wrapped in the prop, etc.  My
>kinda plane.

Then again, there are the comments of Colonel Blakeslee of the 4th
Fighter Group (a veteran of Eagle Squadron, the unit of US pilots who
flew for the RAF before the USA entered the war).

The 4th had been outfitted with the P47, but it wasn't well received by
the pilots who were used to lighter British types. When Col. Blakeslee
was congratulated on shooting down a Fw-190 in his P-47 after a diving
fight, someone said that he had `finally proven that the P-47 could
outdive a Fw-190.'

`It ought to dive,' said Blakeslee. `It certainly won't climb'. He then
used his influence with the commander of the Eighth Air Force fighter
groups to be equipped with the P-51 Mustang. 

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:09:55 +0100
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML FAQ Notice

Just a reminder that the TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) can be found
at:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

or by email from:

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-html

for the HTML version

or

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-text

for the text version.

There are also (slightly out-of-date) versions available form the MPGN ftp
server:

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-html.zip (HTML)

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-text.zip (Text)

Latest additions include links to the #Traveller IRC channel and more
glossary entries.

For those of you new to the list, it's worth getting a copy of the FAQ
simply for the glossary, which reveals the meanings of such esoteric
abbreviations as AAB, IMTU, ObTrav and FLGS.

As always, comments, corrections and material to fill the gaps welcome.

Stuart.
- ----
Stuart Squibb
Newport, Isle of Wight, England
scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
TML-FAQ: http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:17:44 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

At 08:42 AM 4/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Charles Collin 
>>
>>On a more serious note, I wonder if all this "eating K'Kree" stuff 
>>might
>>make an interesting plot hook/campaign device.  Let's say the K'Kree 
>>find
>>a cult of humans in the Imperium that's practicing this.  Can you say
>>genocidal war?  The K'Kree would go absolutely bonkers!  I have to 
>>admit
>>I've always wanted a big K'Kree/Imperium war, just cuz the centaurs 
>>make


I wonder if the novelty shops and tourist traps in the starports along the
K'Kree border sell "Genuine K'Kree Hunting Licenses" with ear tag hunting
rules booklet. 

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:55:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>
> 1.  Food. IIRC Terran life is based around left handed amino acids, but
>     there is no reason why an alien ecosystem can't use right handed
>     amino acids. So right away 50% of the seemingly self sufficent worlds
>     require the import of either a) an entire ecosystem (from bacteria up)
>     or b) food. Add in lack of trace elements and you can probably cross
>     off around 60% to 70% of such worlds.

Well, you could gengineer your colonists to the alien ecosystem.  That way they
COULDN'T import foodstuffs.  As for the rest, Earth seems to have a pretty good
economy without insterstellar trade.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:05:47 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

At 11:28 PM 4/15/99 +1200, you wrote:
>Also, I'd have to add "Shards of Honor" by Bujold. So similar ot Weber's book,
>but much nastier, it almost reads like Haledeman's "Forever War" compared to
>"Starship Troopers", and I'm almost certain the name of the book is an oblique
>reference to Weber.

The rest of Bujold's work can be great for Traveller too: Technofeudal
nobles, Intelligence agencies, Mercenary fleets, Intrigue, Diplomacy, War,
Unscrupulous criminal planets.  The entire Miles Vorkosigan series is
wonderful.  About the only Traveller stereotypes Bujold doesn't have are
the Ancients...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:02:35 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Selling

> From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
> Subject: Selling
> 
> I am going to put my whole travaller collection up for sale.   What is
> the climate like here for such things?

Aaaahhhhh!!! Wait until I get a job, so that I can buy stuff!!!

Seriously, people here will buy, but it's kind of a waste of bandwith. 
There's a web site hosted by one of our members (and part of the
Traveller Webring) that has a place specifically for selling stuff. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:11:05 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>

> Originally, the Bf was the abbreviation for the company
> Bayerische Flegzeugwerke. After the Bf108, 109 and 110 the abbreviation
> changed to Me for Willi Messerschmitt.

Interesting -- thanks.  Bayerische Flegzeugwerke means Bavarian Airplane
Works -- like BMW stands for Bayerische Motorwerke.  I wonder if there's
a relationship (via the Marshall plan)?

Ob Traveller:  After the Fifth Frontier War, will the Imperium funnel
lots of resources into rebuilding the Spinward Marches?  How about the
DMZ?  Will the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate compete for the right
to assist worlds in the DMZ that were battlefields during the war?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:13:21 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

> From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Subject: Re: Bladerunner

> I also liked "Deus Irae" which was written with Roger Zelazny, another
> useful
> author to bring in because of things like "To Die in Italbar" and

To Die in Italbar is the sequel to another book whose title I can't
remember (early onset senility, I guess).  They're both very, very
good.  Some of the scenes in Italbar have found their way into many of
my campaigns.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:20:43 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

I'm not sure that we have to show that worlds will die without 
trade. I can see the Imperium relying on trade because such 
trade generates huge economies that can be taxed. Cutting off 
a world might not cause it to die, but it might damage it's 
economy considerably.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:16:58 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:38:53 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Sure, but that material is far from comprehensive. So far you haven't come
>up with any canonical facts that prove that drop tanks do not exist.

Well, I think I have.  I think that presenting thing like
using demountable tanks when drop tanks would work better,
presenting cargo prices that are clearly not dependent on
drop tanks, how military ships are presented as jumping
in without fuel, etc. are all clearly inconsitent with
drop tanks.  But if you don't agree, then I guess we
will have to agree to disagree.

It is true that nothing says "we had to do it this way because
drop tanks don't exist".  But then it doesn't say "we had to
do it that way because we couldn't sacrifice virgins to Zeus"
but that doesnt' mean all subsector capitols are linked by
messages sent via sacrifices to Zeus.

That fact is that if it was presented to me "Oh, most things
have always gone by drop tnaks" that _would_ be a problem
for me.

>>The point is, rather than wandering over the sector, they will only be able
>>to carry cargoes to worlds that get few ships.

>Correction: To and from worlds that are not linked by drop tank service.
>Drop tank service will be between pairs of worlds with a lot of trade. It
>won't be between worlds with lots of ships and worlds with few.

I don't agree.  There isn't any reason to expect them to be
that expensive.  If you get at least a few ships a day, it
will be reasonable to have drop tank service.

>Drop tank tramp ships? My guess is that drop tank service and tramp ships
>will be incompatible. How do you figure otherwise?

Because it is cheaper?  They increase a beowulf's cargo 30%.
30% of your monthly mortgage payment is 33,750 Cr.  We know
from Far Trader the cost of a tanker to move cargo out to
the jump is 100Cr/dton of fuel.  Then all you need is the
tanker to hang around and fuel a ship or just a big tank to
store it in.

>>Well, if you are imaginative there are things you can do about this (like
>>have tender ships that have tanks that can then collapse down allowing
>>them to become a small ship to jump themselves).
>
>This is illegal by CT rules.

Why?  As long as you don't drop below 100dtons (hardly a big
thing to jump)

>>That assumes you don't instead make tanks that can collapse back into the
>>war ship to bring itself. (That is part of the problem when you introduce
>>a new technology assuming you can see all the impacts, people are going to
>>start having ideas).

>However, that particular ramification is also illegal by CT rules. You can't
>make collapsible drop tanks.

Why?

> Guess that must be a relief to you, right ;-)?

No, because it is arbitrary and doesn't make sense.  It is
like having gun and being told it won't shoot certain types
of characters.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:36:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 77 Quirks

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> 
> I decided to try my hand at a random "starship quirk generator"
> system to add flavor to all those mass-produced ships out there
> in various Traveller universes. It turned out to be a bit on
> the ambitious side, so I'm sharing the fruits of my labor.
> 
> The table and most of the quirk descriptions are in place; I
> should finish the descriptions this week sometime.
> 
> http://www.rahul.net/kaleja/77quirks.html

Oh, cool!

FWIW: 

My YugoBox FT free trader class has the following:

(as a class, first 100)

1)	Scrapes and Dents: 

	The shipyard's real tight, as we're making a LOT of these puppies, so
some banging around is to be expected.

2)	Shaky Inertial Compensators: 

	A recall order has been placed on these units, whihc were acquired from
MissionTech Gravitics, a now bankrupt supplier of gravitic components. A
supply of replacements has being negotiated, complicated by
MissionTech's bankruptcy, and the parts are in transit to all our
service centers.

	This flaw affects YugoBox FT mod.1 serial no's 23-766543-021 through
23-766543-121 only. All subsequent ship deliveries have had Kiirka
Gravitics Ltd. inertial compensators units.

	The problem is only noticeable under higher acceleration, and is
manifested as a slight fluttering of the compensation. This gives a
ride, not unlike running a wheeled groundcar on a marginal gravel paved
road. YugoShip customers  with affected vessels are encouraged to come
into any of our authorized starport sevice centers and get these units
replaced. As a courtesy, we will also provide coupons good for 2 life
support consumables packs to the customer, free of charge. We apologize
for any inconvenience.

3)	Flaky Security system:

	There are known bugs in the MicroSystems security software suite
installed on the YugoBox line, with the standard Security option. Under
certain conditions, The system will repeatedly lock and unlock secured
doors in rapid cycling. 

The main diagnostic of this is that the Security window of the
designated admnistrative console is locked, and displays only a bright
blue box, with a cryptic error message. MicroSystems engineers have
traced this to an old programming flaw in legacy code embedded some of
their lesser used software subsystems. The only known fix at this time
is to shut down the Security module and repower it, and the associated
hardware, back from a cold start.

MicroSystems engineers expect to have a patch available soon, please
contact them, using problem code BSD-55243-NT-876 to be notfied when
such a patch is available.

Alternatively, upgrading to iSecure 3.5, an enhanced security system
from ApplTech Software Solutions is also supported, and YugoShips PLC is
offering a 50% discount to customers wishing to upgrade. This discount
does not apply to new customers.

Thank you.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:48:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
>
> Interesting -- thanks.  Bayerische Flegzeugwerke means Bavarian Airplane
> Works -- like BMW stands for Bayerische Motorwerke.  I wonder if there's
> a relationship (via the Marshall plan)?

I don't think so, as there are Beemers (both four and two wheeled)
predating WWII by quite a bit.
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:13:59 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> Iron Chef is actually based on many popular Vargr holovid programs.

Just for the record, I was starting to get annoyed with the
frequency of the "drink | nose > keyboard" jokes -- they 
just weren't funny any more, from overuse -- when I read
this. 

I did, however, manage to stop the coffee between the nose 
and the keyboard.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:17:30 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #453

Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors
> 
> Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 
> >The water displacement is not a problem 
iated neutrino source.

If a sub is doing 40 knots, it's because it's already 
being shot at. Some planets may well have 7500 ton 
whaleoids.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #454
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 15 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 455



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Subs and Sensors
New Solar System Discovered
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: New superheavy element created
Re: Jet planes
Re: a world without trade
linux software
Re: All this K'Kree bashing...
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: Jump space - some thoughts
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: 
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Naval rank?
Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
Re: Scouts and Assassins book...
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Scouts and Assassins book...
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Scouts and Assassins book...
Re: Scouts and Assassins book...
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Jump space - some thoughts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:21:55 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Please pardon my missent draft-in-progress on this topic. :(

Matt Clonfero wrote:

> Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 
> >The water displacement is not a problem if your planet has a significant
> >population of whales or other large sea life. 

Can someone explain how "displacement detection" works? I can see it 
working on a moving sub, but what about a stationary or creeping one?

> Oh, but it is. Ever seen a 7500 ton whale? 

Why, there are 5,000-10,000-ton Whaloids on dozens of planets 
in the Imperium, aren't there? 

>Or one that does 40 knots? 

A sub doing 40 knots has already been detected and shot at.

> Or
> one that, on checking, seems to have an associated neutrino source.

This is about the only valid point I see.

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:47:35 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: New Solar System Discovered

This may be "old news", but it was the first I'd heard it:

BBC News today reports that 3 planets forming a solar system 
around Upsilon Andromidae have been discovered by Marcy and 
Butler at SFSU.  This was confirmed by the Harvard-Smithsonian 
Center for Astrophysics.  Among other things, it appears that 
current theories of planet-formation and solar-system formation 
are wrong.  The full text of the news item is at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_319000/319865.stm


wildstar@qrc.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Science Fiction, if, presuming technical competence on the part of
 the writer, he genuinely believes it could happen." --- John W. Campbell

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:46:13 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

Anders Backman wrote:
> 

> Me I personally prefer "Bill, the galactic hero" by Harry Harrison, a
> superrealistic depiction of futuristic warfare, heroism, honour and bravery
> as mankind carves out its future among the stars.

He did another (broad) parody called 'Star Smashers of the Galaxy
Rangers' with all sorts of fun stuff in it. If you can find it, I think
it's many. many years out of print.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:03:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

Joe Pettit writes:
<snipped>
"As for the rest, Earth seems to have a pretty good
economy without insterstellar trade."

	North America appears to have had a pretty good
	economy without intercontinental trade, but 
	cutting us off now would cause problems. This is
	because TL has increased, and because we have 
	built our economy (at least in part) on such 
	trade. Many worlds might have the same problems.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:22:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>Joe Pettit writes:
><snipped>
>"As for the rest, Earth seems to have a pretty good
>economy without insterstellar trade."

The state that Earth is in today in all aspects: Technological,
governmental, moral, ethical etc it would definatelly be considered
suffering the long night if it was part of an empire.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:44:00 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: New superheavy element created

Smart, David J wrote:

>As for Element 114...darn if I know. Unfortunately, I'm
>not up to speed on the commercial uses of superheavy
>elements. Can anyone give a few examples of potential
>use?

Superdense???  could be a stable superheavy element created using
gravitic technology rather than bombartment?

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:15:01 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jet planes

In a message dated 4/15/99 10:07:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk writes:

<< `It ought to dive,' said Blakeslee. `It certainly won't climb'. He then
 used his influence with the commander of the Eighth Air Force fighter
 groups to be equipped with the P-51 Mustang. 
  >>

When the jug got equipped with the "paddle-blade" propellors; their 
performance improved DRAMATICALLY. Granted they still weren't the equal of a 
Mustang, but they weren't the pigs that people thought they were. The "jug" 
was a vertical performance plane. They dove and climbed wonderfully (with the 
new props), and could reasonably dogfight at high altitude, but had problems 
at low altitude. The "spits" and mustangs could out roll and out turn the jug 
at low and medium altitude, but then again, they didn't have vunerable 
radiators to puncture. I think the anti-jug bias was based on the size of the 
bird. Empty; it weighed more than a loaded Spitfire, and it was the largest 
single engine fighter of the war. I could see a fighter jock seeing this 
giant for the first time, and assuming that it couldn't possibly be 
manuervable at all...Lastly; it was the range of the Mustang, not it's 
stellar performance that made it so desirable to the Army Air Corps. They 
could escort the bombers hundreds of miles further than a P-47 or P-38, and 
had better performance to boot....

You got to fight your plane to it's strengths, and to your opponent's 
weaknesses...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:05:11 -0400
From: Joseph Coles <coles@evtc.com>
Subject: Re: a world without trade

Another area worthy of consideration is not interstellar trade, but
transportation of comodities, goods and people and communication within a
system or on an individual planet.  

Any situation where an outside force is attepting to conquer another would
probably involve the conquerors interdicting internal traffic/communication.
In such a case, the higher the target's tech, the more serious the effect.  

As an example, the United States can certainly produce more than enough food
to take care of its own needs.  But food production (in land, equipment, and
perhaps most importanttly, experience and knowledge) is not equally
distributed across the country or within the population.  I seem to remember
reading that only some 2% of the U.S. population are farmers.  Most
non-farmers do not know how to produce enough food to live on, even if they
had the materials and arable land available (I worked on a dairy farm for 2
years and I know that I don't know).  And just as important as the knowledge
and ability to produce food is the ability to transport it to the hungry
people.  A TL 1 society wouldn't be affected as badly.  If 97% of the
population are farmers, then food production is much more universal;
everyone could still eat.  


- ---------------
Joe Coles
coles@evtc.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:48:28 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: linux software

Version 0.8.0 of my traveller utilities are available at

http://www.visi.com/~markn/index.html

The web page is pretty uneventful, but the software 
includes the following apps:

dice        quick-n-dirty dice hack
enc_tbl     generate encounter tables
sector      view and print sectors
sysgen      generate star systems
system      view edit and print star systems
word        generate random words
world       generate and print world details

The install process needs some polish, but the
applications are usable.

Note also that I've developed this on linux, but I am
using a cross-platform library wich should allow them
to be built on other platforms (this remains to be
proven).

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:40:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: All this K'Kree bashing...

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net> wrote:
> Ever notice that their ships look like clay pigeons?

Look at the GDW alien module description, and realise who big and
inefficient (and THIN) their ships are.

Talk about a bursting disk - although, it could make a meson shot hard.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:36:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

"Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I gave up on these half-way through the first one, when I realized that
>Nick Seafort is an idiot and a sadist.  I loathed him, and so did several
>other people I know.  YMMV, obviously.  Don't buy the whole series; find
>the first one used or in the library first.

Give me Conrad Mazian or Signy Mallory over Seafort any day. And if you
don't know the reference, you should ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:02:45 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump space - some thoughts

At 03:52 AM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>There has been a lot of debate recently about the 100 diameter limit
>precipitating ships out of jump, and whether 'closely' packed fleets
>can jump synchronously....
>
>In GT it clearly says "Jump uses a straight line in calculating
>courses. If that straight line intersects a 100-diameter sphere
around
>an object ****of more than 1 mile in diameter,**** the ship is
>'precipitated' out of jump space." (GT p.120, emphasis mine)
>
>IMTU I use this as a guideline for how big an object has to be
before
>exerting an effect on jump space, so unless the ships in a fleet are
>truly mahoosive they will not affect each other.

	The only problem I have with this "jump masking" idea is this ...
WHEN does the object have to be in the way? Remember, astronomical
objects MOVE at astronomical speeds. So that gas giant in the outer
system of your destination may not be on that straight line *now* ...
but maybe it will be at some time between now and now+7 days. Or
maybe it is now, but won't be now+7 days. Ditto for any objects
between systems.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:07:26 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 09:17 AM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles Collin wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Finally, I think some folks are over-estimating the ability of
people to
>> "call in" meson fire.  Someone mentioned a guy with binocs and a
compass.
>> If I had that, I would have exactly no idea how to call in a set
of
>> coordinates.  
>
>But someone who did, could teach you in about an hour ....
>
>> The problem would only get worse in a society where people
>> typically "dial-a-destination" in their grav vehicles.
>
>Ok, fair point, but then if someone could teach you how to read a
map in an
>hour, how long is it going to take to teach an average citezen of a
high tech
>world to use a compas and read a map. A day, two perhaps ?

	30 seconds: "Here, look through this microminiaturized GPS-equipped
pair of binoculars and focus on the target. The internal computer
will figure out exactly where you are, what direction you're
pointing, and how far it is, and display the target's coordinates.
When this little green light blinks, you can push this button to
transmit those coordinates ..."
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:20:06 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 

At 06:57 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Charles writes:
>
>>Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3
stationary
>>targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub
fires to
>>often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.
>
>Assumes only 1 static meson site.

	And also assumes that your favorite warship going BLOOIE tells you
either the range to the meson gun OR the direction from which the
shot came ... without one of those two, you can't triangulate jack ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:21:41 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

At 03:04 PM 4/13/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/13/99 8:59:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< check out High guard or an almanac for naval ranks..the captain
would 
> be captain :) and the exec officer would be a commander...then lt 
> commander...Lt, Lt jr grade and ensign :)
> I think that's right...I defer to those with military experience...
>>
>
>that's good, but the navy muddies up the waters a bit. They don't
always 
>asign a full captain to a ship. A smaller ship will have a
commanding officer 

	It basically depends on how many people are working for you. For
example, a small cutter might be commanded by a senior enlisted. A
ship of the line is commanded by a full Captain (O6).
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:28:02 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

At 04:43 PM 4/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> Based on the US Navy
>> ship                   CO
>> Frigate               O4-O5 (Lt. Commander-Commander)
>> Destroyer           O5-O6 (Commander-Captain)
>> Cruiser               O6 (Captain)
>> Capital Ship        O7 (Commodore)
>>   (BB, Carrier)         (not actually used in the US Navy except
in time
>> of war)
>
>'fraid I must disagree.  There were Commodore's in the fleet as
recently as
>1985 (she was the ranking officer at Great Lakes RTC/NTC - believe
me, I
>remember her rank!)  In '87 (?), Commodores were converted to Rear
Admiral
>(lower half).  While I don't pay attention to it anymore, I believe
that
>currently the rank of Rear Admiral still spans two pay grades.

	For some weird reason* the Navy _only_ uses O7=Commodore during war.
During peace, O7=Rear Admiral, Lower Half

*Whaddaya expect from people who talk of heads, decks, and bulkheads
instead of toilets, floors, and walls? I mean, if head is toilet,
shouldn't bulkhead be where you go to do your *really* big business?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:32:02 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

At 10:40 PM 4/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Question on Meson guns. As I understand it Meson guns consist of two
neutral
>particle beams that cause an explosion where they meet. Is there any
reason
>that both particle beams have to be at the same location? For
example could
>I deep bury a dozen or so meson particle beam projectors on gimbals
so that
>they can point in any direction and then tie them together with
meson
>communicators for coordination?  Then could I fire any two at a
particular
>target, which should make triangulation much more difficult.

	Not quite--the two precursor beams cannot travel through most
matter. A meson gun brings the two beams together within the bore to
collide, generating meson particles. These particles don't interact
with other matter, and hence can pass through anything.  They also
have a very short lifespan, and when they decay, the resulting decay
products DO interact with matter ... dumping large quantities of
energy into whatever absorbs them.

	Since these mesons are travelling at relativistic speeds, by
adjusting the speed you can tweak how much time dilation they
experience, and hence when they'll decay.

That's the official explanation, anyway. Don't let any physicists try
to tell you otherwise ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:32:59 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Scouts and Assassins book...

At 10:33 PM 4/13/99 CDT, you wrote:
>I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by
"Narapoia",
>which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
>It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?

	I'll give you my left nugget ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:42:55 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 07:33 PM 4/14/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>At 06:02 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>>>iii. Using a hand laser rangefinder with an integral flux-gate
compass,
>>>measure the precise range and bearing to the target (just point it
at
>>>the target and press the button). Add this vector onto your
location
>>>from (ii) - you now know precisely where the target it.
>>
>>Today's Army has a laser designator that hooks into the GPS.  It
knows
>>where it is, and then it knows the precise bearing and range to the
target,
>>so it can uplink the taget's location to any interested unit.  Take
three
>>readings, and it'll give you velocity and heading information.
>
>I'm betting that a force big enough to invade a planet has taken out
the
>GPS constellation - or is at least jamming the life out of it. Hence
a
>method that is completely self-sufficient.

	<Looking through macroscope>
	"Prompt: point at the sun and click"
	"Status: Reading compass to determine magnetic north. "
	"Prompt: point at target and click"

OR

	Microminiaturized inertial nav system ... not as accurate as GPS,
but if you sync it up frequently at known benchmarks, and you're
aiming at area targets  ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:19:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Scouts and Assassins book...

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 10:33 PM 4/13/99 CDT, you wrote:
> >I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by
> "Narapoia",
> >which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
> >It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?
> 
>         I'll give you my left nugget ...

Well, _now_ we know who is the most obsessive collector on the list! :-)

"I have one, one, one, do I hear two?"

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:26:07 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> >
> > 1.  Food. IIRC Terran life is based around left handed amino acids, but
> >     there is no reason why an alien ecosystem can't use right handed
> >     amino acids. So right away 50% of the seemingly self sufficent worlds
> >     require the import of either a) an entire ecosystem (from bacteria up)
> >     or b) food. Add in lack of trace elements and you can probably cross
> >     off around 60% to 70% of such worlds.
> 
> Well, you could gengineer your colonists to the alien ecosystem.  That way they
> COULDN'T import foodstuffs.  

I can see some problems with this.  Chief among these is that you have
just prevented your colonists from ever cross-breeding with the
homeworld's population (barring reverse gengineering).  This seems an
excellent way to lead one's colonies to lack any sort of bond with the
homeworld.  Of course, from a dramatic point of view, you can make the
difficulties of Romeo and Juliet seem tame.  All they had to deal with
was a feud between their respective families.  A gengineered colonist
who fell in love with a homeworlder _couldn't_ bear/father children with
his/her beloved; thier biochemistries would be incompatible.  Add to
this the pressure from a colonial government to have large families, and
you begin to see how joyous life would be for these (dare I say it?)
star-crossed lovers.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:36:36 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Scouts and Assassins book...

At 05:19 PM 4/15/99 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:33 PM 4/13/99 CDT, you wrote:
>> >I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by
>> "Narapoia",
>> >which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia
Press.
>> >It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?
>> 
>>         I'll give you my left nugget ...
>
>Well, _now_ we know who is the most obsessive collector on the list!
:-)
>
>"I have one, one, one, do I hear two?"

	I'll give you my left nugget AND his left nugget ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:41:42 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Scouts and Assassins book...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
: > >I've gotten my hands on an oddity - Scouts and Assassins by
: > "Narapoia",
: > >which I assume was Paranoia Press before they were Paranoia Press.
: > >It's an ugly, thin book.  What the heck is this worth?
: >
: >         I'll give you my left nugget ...
:
: Well, _now_ we know who is the most obsessive collector on the list!
:-)
:
: "I have one, one, one, do I hear two?"

[said in my best Michael Jackson voice] "I already have a copy, thanks."


Acting V.Adm. C. Michael,
Sword Worlds Navy, Gram Fleet:
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:56:36 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

At 07:26 PM 4/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Joe Pettit wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> > 1.  Food. IIRC Terran life is based around left handed amino acids, but
>> >     there is no reason why an alien ecosystem can't use right handed
>> >     amino acids. So right away 50% of the seemingly self sufficent worlds
>> >     require the import of either a) an entire ecosystem (from bacteria up)
>> >     or b) food. Add in lack of trace elements and you can probably cross
>> >     off around 60% to 70% of such worlds.
>> 
>> Well, you could gengineer your colonists to the alien ecosystem.  That way 
>they
>> COULDN'T import foodstuffs.  
>
>I can see some problems with this.  Chief among these is that you have
>just prevented your colonists from ever cross-breeding with the
>homeworld's population (barring reverse gengineering).  This seems an
>excellent way to lead one's colonies to lack any sort of bond with the
>homeworld.  Of course, from a dramatic point of view, you can make the
>difficulties of Romeo and Juliet seem tame.  All they had to deal with
>was a feud between their respective families.  A gengineered colonist
>who fell in love with a homeworlder _couldn't_ bear/father children with
>his/her beloved; thier biochemistries would be incompatible.  Add to
>this the pressure from a colonial government to have large families, and
>you begin to see how joyous life would be for these (dare I say it?)
>star-crossed lovers.

Problems, yes as you described.  But for the ones who tend towards the
"Other" career, they would make great items to sell into white slavery.  No
chance of having to worry about pregnancies, and a very small chance of
transmitted STDs.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:23:42 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump space - some thoughts

>	The only problem I have with this "jump masking" idea is this ...
>WHEN does the object have to be in the way? Remember, astronomical
>objects MOVE at astronomical speeds. So that gas giant in the outer
>system of your destination may not be on that straight line *now* ...
>but maybe it will be at some time between now and now+7 days. Or
>maybe it is now, but won't be now+7 days. Ditto for any objects
>between systems.
>-- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

        Hi, Dave...
        This kind of gets back to the discussion that Cliff and I were
having about the odd "Star Wars" comment about the Millienium Falcon doing
the Kessel Run in "less than three parsecs"...  the challenge for the
computer/ navigator to beat down a course that avoids all the obsticals
between departure and destination with as few and as tight distance-adding
course changes in the process.
        All of a sudden that Navigator skill comes in useful, neh?  A bad
navigation roll and you are parked out at the destination systems OORT
cloud....  a really bad roll and you are parked out at the *departure*
system's gas giant....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #455
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 456



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: 101 Robots
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)
Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)
Reeman as Alexander Kent
Scouts & Assassins, SORAG, et al
Re: Economics of drop tanks 
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world! 
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world! 
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: 77 Quirks
Life Support (was re: How hard can it be to kill a world!)
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:22:31 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Ve Kfouzhangou, well-known Senior Chef to the Court of Lord Brzk, has
> these comments:
> 
> "In wartime (between Vargr and K'kree), many patriotic Vargr restaurants
> serve young K'kree as steak, prime rib, etc.  K'kree brains are often
> eaten by Vargr troops after a battle.  In fact, K'kree are often
> referred to by Vargr soldiers as "the prey that shoots back", and there
> are many stories of Vargr collecting dead K'kree soldiers to be skinned,
> cleaned, and turned into victory dinners -- and not just when supplies
> are low.

K'kree:  It's who's for dinner.

or

K'kree:  The _other_ red meat.
  (Humans, aka "long pig", would be the "other white meat.")

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:31:02 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: 101 Robots

Frank Pitt wrote:
> 
> >Has anyone on the TML got a copy of 101 Robots?
> 
> No.
> 
> The others respondents are all lying as part of the great "101 Robots"
> conspiracy.

Fnord.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:51:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE8721.03E71920
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1
Content-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.990415214948.9537C@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi Loren, here's the name of the artist.  Sorry for sending to the list,
but I don't have Loren's personal email...

The Shadow of the Torturer, Gene Wolf
A timescape book, copyright 1980 (hard cover)
Jacket painting by Don Maitz


- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE8721.03E71920--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:58:04 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Downbelow Station, etc.

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
...
>Give me Conrad Mazian or Signy Mallory over Seafort any day. And if you
>don't know the reference, you should ;-)

  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have power-mad
sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:10:09 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

Watch me make an Ob. Trav out of this.

Charles Collin wrote:

> Hi Loren, here's the name of the artist.  Sorry for sending to the list,
> but I don't have Loren's personal email...
>
> The Shadow of the Torturer, Gene Wolf
> A timescape book, copyright 1980 (hard cover)
> Jacket painting by Don Maitz

Ah, the man in the fuligin cloak.  Great stuff for Long Night adventures.

Ob. Trav:  What happens when TL12-15 decides to make
TL 1-2 weapons?

The Torturer in the series, which you must read if you haven't,
has an excecutioner's sword.  A long blade, blunt and rounded at
the end, but with sharp sides.  The unique feature it has is an amount
of mercury _inside_ the blade.  The mercury resides in a tube that
runs the length of the blade.  While this added weight makes the sword
more difficult to carry and wield, when swung it becomes devastating.
Why?  The mercury in the blade, slides to the end of the sword as its
swinging adding to the mass and, one F=ma later (and maybe some
other formulas for inertia and momentum in there), Whammo!

In the story, its a high TL sword.  It leads me to think that some weapons
would be real nice at TL 15

An armor-piercing crossbow.
Longbows with veeery long ranges.
A two-handed sword that will dent battledress.

Wasn't there some discussion months ago about Axe-wielders in Battledress
as a boarding party?

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:45:24 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>
> > Well, you could gengineer your colonists to the alien ecosystem.  That way they
> > COULDN'T import foodstuffs.
>
> I can see some problems with this.  Chief among these is that you have
> just prevented your colonists from ever cross-breeding with the
> homeworld's population (barring reverse gengineering).  This seems an
> excellent way to lead one's colonies to lack any sort of bond with the
> homeworld.  Of course, from a dramatic point of view, you can make the
> difficulties of Romeo and Juliet seem tame.  All they had to deal with
> was a feud between their respective families.  A gengineered colonist
> who fell in love with a homeworlder _couldn't_ bear/father children with
> his/her beloved; thier biochemistries would be incompatible.  Add to
> this the pressure from a colonial government to have large families, and
> you begin to see how joyous life would be for these (dare I say it?)
> star-crossed lovers.

Well the gengineering is a really immoral act and the premise for doing it is to stop
interstellar trade.  Thus, if you create a race that can't interact with other races,
you've gone a long way towards that goal.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:49:11 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma

> >Those TL 15 elite grav armoured units are *tough*.
> 
> How do they withstand Meson fire? Do TL-15 Grav Tanks have Meson
> screens?

Though I think that particular example from FFW may be straining common 
sense, a (small) meson screen vehicle should be doable, though one capable 
enough to withstand a BB sized meson gun is going to be... BB sized.  ;-)  As 
WBH notes, major cities (and you can most definately assume 3CD sites, too) 
will probably have their own meson screens (multiple backups even).  It's for 
the defense, anyways.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:49:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

> > Oh, but it is. Ever seen a 7500 ton whale? 
> 
> Why, there are 5,000-10,000-ton Whaloids on dozens of planets 
> in the Imperium, aren't there? 

And during situations targetting SDBs or subs, they probably get mistakenly 
toasted alot.  
:-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:05:21 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

- ----------
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >I gave up on these half-way through the first one, when I realized that
> >Nick Seafort is an idiot and a sadist.  I loathed him, and so did
several
> >other people I know.  YMMV, obviously.  Don't buy the whole series; find
> >the first one used or in the library first.
> 
> Give me Conrad Mazian or Signy Mallory over Seafort any day. And if you
> don't know the reference, you should ;-)
> 

Got it.  Anyone else think Heavy Time/Hellburner would make an interesting
Traveller plotline?  The riders could be real scary for conventional
Traveller warships. :-)

Heck, Cherryh in general is heavily mineable for Traveller ideas.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:27:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

You mean like my 100% hand-waved katana that has a DU (dupleted uranium)
core and layered alloy blade?  You have to be WEARING battledress to wield
the bloody thing :)  Nice can-opener while the FGMP is re-charging.

Jesse


>An armor-piercing crossbow.
>Longbows with veeery long ranges.
>A two-handed sword that will dent battledress.
>
>Wasn't there some discussion months ago about Axe-wielders in Battledress
>as a boarding party?
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:41:48 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Reeman as Alexander Kent

I blew this one. I'm rereading "Tradition of Victory" right now and
there it is on the back of the title page and in the author screed at
the back of my english paperback.. "Ramage" has about the correct amount
of daring-do, just like of Richard Sharpe and Sir (Where do they hide
the Women?) Harry  Flashman (well..he does knavery-don't). Flashman by
far is my favourite hero (knave, scoundrel, coward, horse's-ass, etc.).
George MacDonald Fraser, screenwriter of "Three Musketeers" and "Four
Musketeers" [the good ones with Michael York, Rachel Welch, Oliver Reed,
et al], has epitomized the hypocrisy and flummery of the early victorian
era and thoroughly destroys the 'action-hero' swashbuckler genre.

I also failed to mentioned V.A. Stuart, Edwin P. Hoyt, Jon Williams,
Alexander Lamb, and Adam Hardy (house pseudonym) as additional "Age of
Sail" authors.

ObTrav: Next to Flandry, Agent of the Terran Empire, I can't think of a
better NPC than Sir Harry Flashman, after all in those books, he got
Custer killed, started the Indian Mutiny, and was one of the primary
reasons the South lost the American Civil War. My Harry Flashman (no one
else had read the books, so I used him unvarnished) was a Imperial Navy
hack who's father bought him a commission in the Navy, and its been
downhill from there on. In his travels Sir Harry has caused the Fifth
Frontier War, participated (pressed the button) in the Darrian's test of
the new Startrigger, and through sheer out and out cowardice failed to
stop Strephon's assassination (who'd ya think accidentally sealed the
throneroom from Strephon's IRIS hidden bodyguard?) Imagine a combination
of Barney Fife, Richard Sharpe, and the Black Adder and you've got Sir
Harry down pat. Only mine was much worse!

MUSASHI

Who is dying for the two new Alexander Kent novels that B&N.com and
Amazon.com don't have and haven't heard of.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:02:19 +0000
From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>
Subject: Scouts & Assassins, SORAG, et al

Bwa HAH! HAH! HAH! (shades of Dr. Evil and Rivalsan Lendo)

Scouts & Assassins
SORAG
and several other Paranoia Press items in my attic.

I have 'em and y'all aint got 'nough K HONE AYS t' trade with me!!

SORAG was my K.O.A.S. to I.R.I.S.'s C.O.N.T.R.O.L

I used S&A to create the "Creative Sophont Retirement Agency (CisRA)", a
Murder Inc. inspired entity that for a price would knock off even
Strephon. Hmmmm..maybe Dulinor never left Illesh after all and it was
CiSRA (pronounced SisRaa) that engineered Strephon's clone's demise.
Robert Anton Wilson eat my heart out.. the Illuminati are alive (?) and
well in the 3I!! FNORD IA! IA! IA! Cthulu Fhtagnl!

MUSASHI
Consumer of way to much "Morning Thunder" (Celestial Seasonings
'Mountain Dew' for the trendy over-educated set).

"Caffeine is not addictive." Congessional testimony of the leading
caffinated drinks cabal

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:49:15 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 

You're probably not reading (or responding) anyways, but what the hey...  ;-)

> >Sure, but that material is far from comprehensive. So far you haven't come
> >up with any canonical facts that prove that drop tanks do not exist.
> 
> Well, I think I have.  I think that presenting thing like

Except you haven't.  "Think" is hardly enough.   Hans is probably out for a 
page cite, but of course there isn't one (and he knows that) and many that 
indicate drop tanks do exist, and work, apparently without shattering the 
economics of Charted Space.

> using demountable tanks when drop tanks would work better,

If would if that trick worked.  Except that doesn't work.  I could fly if I 
could fly.  ;-)

> presenting cargo prices that are clearly not dependent on

A noticible, but hardly catastrophic, economic effect, even using the rules 
set of your choice (GT & Far Trader).  Couple with numerous factors having 
nothing to do with economics... (including PR, sabotage, mass 
misrepresentation by opposing interests, etc)

> drop tanks, how military ships are presented as jumping
> in without fuel, etc. are all clearly inconsitent with

Based on ludicrous assumptions to begin with.  Maybe for foolish third rate 
power or TED, but not for a Navy with thousands of years of spacefaring 
experience behind it.

> That fact is that if it was presented to me "Oh, most things
> have always gone by drop tnaks" that _would_ be a problem
> for me.

Bummer.  Unfortunately it is *your* problem and doesnt' seem widely shared.  
If things were explained thoroughly enough that it could be a valid 
assumption (remember what they say bout assuming), you might get some 
sympathy.  Any inferences and detailing and assumptions made for YTU remain 
solely for YTU.

> >Correction: To and from worlds that are not linked by drop tank service.
> >Drop tank service will be between pairs of worlds with a lot of trade. It
> >won't be between worlds with lots of ships and worlds with few.
> 
> I don't agree.  There isn't any reason to expect them to be
> that expensive.  If you get at least a few ships a day, it
> will be reasonable to have drop tank service.

Which has been addressed, and not by me, but I failed to note a response from 
you, though its possible I missed it.

> >>Well, if you are imaginative there are things you can do about this (like
> >>have tender ships that have tanks that can then collapse down allowing
> >>them to become a small ship to jump themselves).
> >
> >This is illegal by CT rules.
> 
> Why?  As long as you don't drop below 100dtons (hardly a big
> thing to jump)

Because it is.  That's the way drop tanks "work."  If you were open minded 
enough to have noticed that, you might be capable of a handwave, but what's 
the point, considering?

> >>That assumes you don't instead make tanks that can collapse back into the
> >>war ship to bring itself. (That is part of the problem when you introduce
> >>a new technology assuming you can see all the impacts, people are going to
> >>start having ideas).
> 
> >However, that particular ramification is also illegal by CT rules. You 
can't
> >make collapsible drop tanks.
> 
> Why?

See above. :-)

> > Guess that must be a relief to you, right ;-)?
> 
> No, because it is arbitrary and doesn't make sense.  It is
> like having gun and being told it won't shoot certain types
> of characters.

What about certain types of bullets?  lol.

Simply declaring them (and all references to them, in every edition) null and 
void is what's arbitrary, though that's your business (and your players).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:09:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world! 

> >
> > > Well, you could gengineer your colonists to the alien ecosystem.  That way they
> > > COULDN'T import foodstuffs.
> >
> > I can see some problems with this.  Chief among these is that you have
> > just prevented your colonists from ever cross-breeding with the
> > homeworld's population (barring reverse gengineering).  This seems an
> > excellent way to lead one's colonies to lack any sort of bond with the
> > homeworld.  Of course, from a dramatic point of view, you can make the
> > difficulties of Romeo and Juliet seem tame.  All they had to deal with
> > was a feud between their respective families.  A gengineered colonist
> > who fell in love with a homeworlder _couldn't_ bear/father children with
> > his/her beloved; thier biochemistries would be incompatible.  Add to
> > this the pressure from a colonial government to have large families, and
> > you begin to see how joyous life would be for these (dare I say it?)
> > star-crossed lovers.
> 
> Well the gengineering is a really immoral act and the premise for doing it is to stop
> interstellar trade.  Thus, if you create a race that can't interact with other races,
> you've gone a long way towards that goal.
> 

How do you figure this is immoral?  If the only way to keep a colony viable at 
a certain place is to geneer colonists to survive there, then you *do* it.  
And I can see doing this for truly vital planets, like, say, in a system 
that's a vital link across an interstellar gulf.  If the modifications aren't 
too drastic, say, on the order of adding a nictitating membrane to the eyes 
and a filter in the windpiple to screen out sand for survival on a bright 
desert planet, this doesn't mean that the colonists can't crossbreed with 
'mainstream' humans.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:22:19 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>
>
> How do you figure this is immoral?  If the only way to keep a colony viable at
> a certain place is to geneer colonists to survive there, then you *do* it.

The immoral part was gengineering them specifically so that the CAN'T interact with others.
Its a different story if you do it for their own survival.

>
> And I can see doing this for truly vital planets, like, say, in a system
> that's a vital link across an interstellar gulf.  If the modifications aren't
> too drastic, say, on the order of adding a nictitating membrane to the eyes
> and a filter in the windpiple to screen out sand for survival on a bright
> desert planet, this doesn't mean that the colonists can't crossbreed with
> 'mainstream' humans.

Well, again  the example involved changing the population so they can metabolize the
other-handed amino acids.  The examples you've given can be solved without gengineering.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:27:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

> On 12 Apr, Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
> 
> > I find this assertation odd.  I have never hup0 a player *want* a
> > Type-A...  even those who got one for mustering out *immediatley*
> > sold it for a minor profit and designed a *real* ship that would
> > make money.
> 
> Firstly, it is perfectly possible to make bucketloads of cash with
> the Type A - generate a merchant with decent trader and broker skills
> and then choose your destinations well.

I've done this a few times for practice and paid off a Type A in under 2 years.

> Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits and bought a
> better ship?
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell it for the
> full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a deposit on
> their next ship. In practice, the bank would want cancellation fees
> and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay less than full
> price - so they would make a loss.

If you have the Type A paid off and get the book value for it, you get MCr 37, 
which you can use for the deposit on the new ship.  What I've done in the past 
is, kept on trading after the Type A is paid off, with the profits rolled over 
to build up to the deposit needed for the new ship.  Then, when the new ship 
is about due to be delivered, sell the Type A for whatever you can get to 
finance the first trade pioneering cruise.  <grin>  Timing is everything.
 
> Then they buy a "better" ship. Virtually the whole cost of a Type A
> is the hull, drives and power plant. So there are no cost savings
> to be made. Indeed, without the massive subsidy as a standard design,
> the Type A would be MCr52.
> You cannot buy a "better" ship without either a lot more cash or
> using something like FFS2 to design it.
> 
> Bottom line - the Type A is an owner aboard *free trader*. It is not
> a freighter. Don't use it to tune the freight rules, use it to tune
> the speculative cargo rules.

Best thing you can do with a Type A is, knock out the passenger staterooms and 
convert it into either cargo space or more fuel space.  Dump the steward and 
the medic and replace with a pair of gunners who can do other things, too, 
like navigate, patch people up, or whatever else needs doing.  You get back 24 
dtons from the staterooms, and 10 dtons for taking out the low berths.  That's 
20 tons more fuel and 14 tons more cargo space.  You can now do 2xJ1 and haul 
96 tons of cargo.  Makes a nice 'trade pioneer' variant.  IMTU, some of the 
ships around have done this, at a C or better port, for 1/2 the cost of the 
staterooms and low berths.
 
> Supplement 7, p18 explains the difference.

Yup.

Keven



tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:34:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world! 

> > How do you figure this is immoral?  If the only way to keep a colony viable at
> > a certain place is to geneer colonists to survive there, then you *do* it.
> 
> The immoral part was gengineering them specifically so that the CAN'T interact with others.
> Its a different story if you do it for their own survival.
> 
> >
> > And I can see doing this for truly vital planets, like, say, in a system
> > that's a vital link across an interstellar gulf.  If the modifications aren't
> > too drastic, say, on the order of adding a nictitating membrane to the eyes
> > and a filter in the windpiple to screen out sand for survival on a bright
> > desert planet, this doesn't mean that the colonists can't crossbreed with
> > 'mainstream' humans.
> 
> Well, again  the example involved changing the population so they can metabolize the
> other-handed amino acids.  The examples you've given can be solved without gengineering.

Sure, they can.  With *technology*.  What happens if your technology fails 
you?  Say, on a total waterworld?

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:48:11 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>
> > > And I can see doing this for truly vital planets, like, say, in a system
> > > that's a vital link across an interstellar gulf.  If the modifications aren't
> > > too drastic, say, on the order of adding a nictitating membrane to the eyes
> > > and a filter in the windpiple to screen out sand for survival on a bright
> > > desert planet, this doesn't mean that the colonists can't crossbreed with
> > > 'mainstream' humans.
> >
> > Well, again  the example involved changing the population so they can metabolize the
> > other-handed amino acids.  The examples you've given can be solved without gengineering.
>
> Sure, they can.  With *technology*.  What happens if your technology fails
> you?

Well, on your desert planet, I'll point out that we have entire cultures living out in deserts
with very low tech protection.

> Say, on a total waterworld?

Water worlds are different.  I have to wonder what the climate would be like.  Without land
masses, I'd picture a world  perpetually raining and overcast.  A particularly warm planet would
have continuous hurricanes as there would be no land to cut off the storm's  warm water supply.
At that point, I'd have to wonder why anybody would populate it in the first place, or how
they're living, since the surface is too  rough to live on.

However, I think we're diverging from the point about needing interstellar trade.  If a planet
cannot support its population for whatever  reason, then it will never be anything more than an
outpost or colony.  At that point you may as well argue that a space ship can't get along without
interstellar trade.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:15:34 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: 77 Quirks

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Alternatively, upgrading to iSecure 3.5, an enhanced security system
> from ApplTech Software Solutions is also supported, and YugoShips PLC is
> offering a 50% discount to customers wishing to upgrade. This discount
> does not apply to new customers.

Or the real fix 'cause all of ASS's have hidden flaws that require new
hardware with every minor upgrade or additional security point added,
is Linus's intrudergaurd. It give the end user great variety in setups for
minimal cost.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:17:18 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Life Support (was re: How hard can it be to kill a world!)

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
However, I think we're diverging from the point about needing interstellar 
trade.  If a planet cannot support its population for whatever  reason, 
then
it will never be anything more than an outpost or colony.  At that point
you may as well argue that a space ship can't get along without
interstellar trade.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Speaking of spaceships:

Does anyone have some figures for how many dtns it takes to support
a person indefinitely? Say, with regular infusions of whatever you can
scoop from a gas giant, TL 12+ technology, and the occaisional mining
of an asteroid?

I was thinking about an old cargo vessel converted over into a mobile
home for a travelling clan, with big chunks of the cargo bay converted
over to hydroponics, rabbit hutches, etc.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:28:32 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> You mean like my 100% hand-waved katana that has a DU (dupleted uranium)
> core and layered alloy blade?  You have to be WEARING battledress to wield
> the bloody thing :)  Nice can-opener while the FGMP is re-charging.

Ok.  Fine for Battledress.  But I meant more realistic things.
A rapier that will scratch a starship hull and will never dull.
A high-power electric stun spear.
Ceramic plate mail?
Super alloy light weight chain mail?

What would be the toughness and density of DU in FFS2 terms?
I think there is a lot of room for additional types of materials at
high TLs.  As it is, we pretty much have only the materials for
building ships and vehicles with.  I'm thinking more along the lines
of ceramic composite body armor, and advancements like that.
I don't know enough about materials to suggest something workable.

>
> Jesse
>
> >An armor-piercing crossbow.
> >Longbows with veeery long ranges.
> >A two-handed sword that will dent battledress.
> >
> >Wasn't there some discussion months ago about Axe-wielders in Battledress
> >as a boarding party?
> >
> >--
> >Bloo
> >Resounding Technology
> >Creators of RogerWilco
> >http://www.resounding.com/
> >
> >
> >

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #456
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 457



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval rank?
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma
high-tech versions of low-tech weapons
Three Cheers for Flash Harry!
Re : 101 Robots
Re : Materials (was Shadow of the Torturer (fwd, longish))
Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?
Re: Government Type "M"
Re: 
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Life Support (was re: How hard can it be to kill a world!)
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:34:59 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Naval rank?

David J. Golden wrote:

> *Whaddaya expect from people who talk of heads, decks, and bulkheads
> instead of toilets, floors, and walls? I mean, if head is toilet,
> shouldn't bulkhead be where you go to do your *really* big business?

LOL ... or maybe _lots_ of business ?

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:25:07 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 
>
>A noticible, but hardly catastrophic, economic effect, even using the rules 
>set of your choice (GT & Far Trader).  Couple with numerous factors having 
>nothing to do with economics... (including PR, sabotage, mass 
>misrepresentation by opposing interests, etc)

Gary, did you check out my jump-6 Decafreighter that uses drop tanks ?

Just to remind you, if you assumed that you had drop tanks that cost KCr 1
per dton, it came in at Cr 1850 per dton to achieve a 5% rate of return
doing jump-6 (every KCr extra the drop tank cost increased this number by
Cr 780 or so). 
 
As a design, it was brutally non-optimised (TL9 power plant, for a start).

And it shipped a dron of cargo six parsecs in one hit for under two
thousand credits.

This means the passenger version could be offering FFS2 bunks for about a
thousand credits per jump-6.

The effect would be on the scale of railroads - you still had the same
basic structure by the end of it (a capitalist economy mainly dominated by
port cities), but everything else was different. Most definitly including
culture, society, military strategy and so on and so forth.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:47:48 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

At 00:27 16/04/1999 -0400, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>sometime before, I wrote:
>> On 12 Apr, Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> > I find this assertation odd.  I have never hup0 a player *want* a
>> > Type-A...  even those who got one for mustering out *immediatley*
>> > sold it for a minor profit and designed a *real* ship that would
>> > make money.
>> 
>> Firstly, it is perfectly possible to make bucketloads of cash with
>> the Type A - generate a merchant with decent trader and broker skills
>> and then choose your destinations well.
>
>I've done this a few times for practice and paid off a Type A in under 2
years.

There was the time I took a cargo of fresh farm produce to Fulacin.
The referee said that, whilst Fulacin would pay well for some of the cargo,
the population of about 10 didn't want all 80std...

>> Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits and bought a
>> better ship?
>> 
>> I'm confused.
>> 
>> The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell it for the
>> full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a deposit on
>> their next ship. In practice, the bank would want cancellation fees
>> and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay less than full
>> price - so they would make a loss.
>
>If you have the Type A paid off and get the book value for it, you get MCr
37, 
>which you can use for the deposit on the new ship.  What I've done in the
past 
>is, kept on trading after the Type A is paid off, with the profits rolled
over 
>to build up to the deposit needed for the new ship.  Then, when the new ship 
>is about due to be delivered, sell the Type A for whatever you can get to 
>finance the first trade pioneering cruise.  <grin>  Timing is everything.

Michel said his players *immediately* sold the ship, so the most they could
get back was the deposit.
Even after only 2 years, you still won't get book value (ie MCr37) for it.

Phil Kitching


- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:51:39 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote

> >I repeat, the impetus for Imperial trade cannot be the
> >same kind of survival need that countries have.

> 1.  Food. IIRC Terran life is based around left handed amino
>     acids, but there is no reason why an alien ecosystem can't use 
>     right handed amino acids. So right away 50% of the seemingly self 
>     sufficent worlds require the import of either a) an entire 
>     ecosystem (from bacteria up) or b) food. Add in lack of trace 
>     elements and you can probably cross off around 60% to 70% of such 
>     worlds.

IIRC it has been theorized that right handed amino acids would not be as
stable & resistant to radiation as left handed acids are.  If this is
correct then planets with right handed acids would be uncommon to
nonexistant as right handed amino acids would not be evolutionarily
stabel, save perhaps on planets with thick atmospheres.

I do not necessarily believe this theory but, at the very least, it
provides a convenient handwave for the paucity of such problems in
Traveller cannon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:13:17 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

>>Give me Conrad Mazian or Signy Mallory over Seafort any day. And if you
>>don't know the reference, you should ;-)
>
>  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have power-mad
>sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)

Me, I'd rather have Mrs. DiGriz.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:23:55 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

>>According to a friend at DARPA, they're working on a set that remembers
>>where it is, and if the GPS net goes down can keep track of its movements.
>>yes, the inertial locator is on it's way!
>
>How do you think submarines navigate at the moment? Or aircraft before
>the commercial release of GPS? Inertial navigation has been around for
>years, but it was kinds large. It was easier (and more accurate, at the
>time) to put GPS up than to miniaturise and ruggedise inertial systems.

However, now that micro-minaturized ring-laser gyros provide better stability
than physical gyros...

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:32:24 +1200
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

>> Me I personally prefer "Bill, the galactic hero" by Harry Harrison, a
>> superrealistic depiction of futuristic warfare, heroism, honour and bravery
>> as mankind carves out its future among the stars.
>
>He did another (broad) parody called 'Star Smashers of the Galaxy
>Rangers' with all sorts of fun stuff in it. If you can find it, I think
>it's many. many years out of print.

I bought it many. many years ago.  :-)

It's great, with wonderful lines like "Quick ! Wipe all the oil of the guns so
they won't freeze in vacuum"

Frankie

.






>
>--
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:37:12 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma

> From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
> Subject: Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma
> 
> > >Those TL 15 elite grav armoured units are *tough*.
> > 
> > How do they withstand Meson fire? Do TL-15 Grav Tanks have Meson
> > screens?
> 
> Though I think that particular example from FFW may be straining common 

The reason those TL 15 elite grav armored units are tough is that
they're facing Sword World troops at TL 10-12, and the combat results
table shifts three, four, or five columns in favor of the higher tech
level.  That is, they don't have to face meson fire.  They're less tough
against TL 14 Zhodani Consular Guard brigades.

The Sword Worlds front can be defended by a few high-tech mercenary
battalions, because of the CRT column-shifting.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:52:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: high-tech versions of low-tech weapons

>Wasn't there some discussion months ago about Axe-wielders in Battledress
>as a boarding party?

This is a recurring discussion on the TML (and I'm not saying that like
it's a bad thing).  

In my Traveller universe, when PCs get "blade" as a mustering out
benefit from the Imperial Navy or Marines, they normally get a
functional (as opposed to purely decorative) sword or cutlass,
respectively, but it's of TL 14 or 15 manufacture and designed for blade
combat at that tech level.  

So while it may be so dense that, turned off, it can't be picked up by
someone not wearing battle dress, it also has an integral gravitic unit
that gives it a weight that can be managed by a person of normal
strength.  (The battery powering the grav unit may not last very long,
so there's some danger of a hernia.)  

Its edge may be so sharp that it can cut through some armor.  Its blade
may be so strong that it can support the weight of its owner.  

We already see big differences between blade weapons manufactured today
versus in medieval times.  Modern blades are made of harder alloys that
don't corrode and don't get dinged up as easily in use.  Modern blades
are also not designed for fighting against medieval armor because modern
blade combat is not between armored opponents -- but that's changing, as
soldiers tend to wear flak jackets and helmets and will probably wear
even more protective gear as it becomes lighter and less expensive.  If
one of the makers of combat knives did decide to make broadswords to
modern standards, the modern broadsword would likely get through armor
made at medieval standards.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:01:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Three Cheers for Flash Harry!

> From: Foy Family <fides3@earthlink.net>

> ObTrav: Next to Flandry, Agent of the Terran Empire, I can't think of a
> better NPC than Sir Harry Flashman, after all in those books, he got
> Custer killed, started the Indian Mutiny, and was one of the primary
> reasons the South lost the American Civil War. My Harry Flashman (no one
> else had read the books, so I used him unvarnished) was a Imperial Navy
> hack who's father bought him a commission in the Navy, and its been
> downhill from there on. In his travels Sir Harry has caused the Fifth

These are two of my all-time favorite characters.  Flandry is a sort of
lecherous and scheming Horatio Hornblower type (and Poul Anderson did
write about his whole career from ensign to admiral), assigned to naval
intelligence.  These stories are very good for Traveller background;
Loren Wiseman and Marc Miller must have been Poul Anderson fans (e.g.,
maybe the taint in the atmosphere is an allergen that will kill a human
if he doesn't get the antidote every day ... manufacture of which is
wholly within the control of the theocratic dictatorship).  

Harry Flashman, the hero of Jalallabad and scourge of the Borneo pirates
- -- that's Colonel Sir Harry Flashman to you -- well, Musashi gave a good
synopsis.  Hip, hip, hooray! etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:13:39 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : 101 Robots

To any of you fortunate enough to own a copy of DGP's '101 Robots' :-
I'd like some information on the layout of the book.
Is it similar to '101 Vehicles' with civilian/industrial/military
classifications by Tech Level?

Are there any outstandingly unusual (or useless) designs?
(similar to the dolphin mini sub and grav chair from 101 V's).


Trying to unify computers, robot brains and vehicle design, I remain
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

"So much to do, so little time..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:54:08 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Materials (was Shadow of the Torturer (fwd, longish))

Steve Daniels wrote :-
> What would be the toughness and density of DU in FFS2 terms?
> I think there is a lot of room for additional types of materials at
> high TLs.  As it is, we pretty much have only the materials for
> building ships and vehicles with.  I'm thinking more along the lines
> of ceramic composite body armor, and advancements like that.

Uranium : density 19g per cc, toughness 3X steel (8.57)...

TL  Description            Toughness  Density (tons/m3)  Unit Cost 
0   Hides*(1)                 0.06       1.2                0.001**
    Bone (1)                  0.14       1.11               0.0003**
    Light wood (2)            0.14       0.4                0.0003**
    Loose dirt (1)            0.06       1.5                0.0003**
    Stone                     0.71       5.5                0.0009**
1   Wood (2)                  0.29       0.8                0.0004**
    Masonry                   0.43       3.0                0.001
    Cement                    0.5        3.5                0.0015
    Bronze                    1.07       7.0                0.0012 
    Iron                      2.14       8.0                0.0016
2   Window glass              0.36       2.5                0.001
3   Soft steel                2.43       8.0                0.0016
4   Aluminium                 1.43       2.7                0.003
    Hard steel                2.86       8.0                0.002
    Reinforced concrete       1.0        3.5                0.003
5   Fibreglass                0.36       1.0                0.001
6   Light alloy               2.43       6.0                0.004
    Titanium alloy            4.29       4.9                0.01
7   Super steel alloy         3.58       8                  0.005
    Light composite           5.71       7.0                0.007
    Glass composite           1.07       1.9                0.01
8   Composite laminate        8.57       8.0                0.008
    Metal laminate armour    11.08      11.13               0.012 (5)
    Graphite composite        7.15       2.1                0.060 (6)
    Kevlar/Spectra            2.76       1.44               0.08
9   Aluminium/lithium alloy   1.57       2.4                0.005
    Light ceramic composite   5.15       1.8                0.009 (4)
    Boron composite          10.01       5.0                0.088 (6)
10  Crystaliron              11.4       10.0                0.009
    Foam steel alloy          3.05       6.24               0.003 (4)
    Al / Li foam alloy        1.34       1.92               0.005 (4)
    Titanium foam             3.35       4.0                0.012 (4)
    Composite matrix armour  13.73       9.54               0.025 (5)
11  Reinforced foam steel     6.21       5.97               0.011 (4)
    Reinforced Al / Li foam   4.93       2.08               0.025 (4)
    Reinforced titanium foam  6.45       3.95               0.034 (4)
12  Superdense               20.0       15.0                0.014
    Advanced composites      12.9       11.0                0.008
    Synthetic diamond        5.75       3.71                0.001
    Metal-ceramic armour    18.78       6.46                0.041 (5)
13  Electropolymorphic       4.0        1.2                 0.318 (3)
14  Bonded superdense       40.0       15.0                 0.028 (3)
15  Enhanced BSD            47.1       15.0                 0.031 (3)
16  Collapsed crystalline   28.6       13.0                 0.022
17  Coherent superdense     57.1       15.0                 0.035 (3)
18  Enhanced CSD            68.6       15.0                 0.052 (3)
* unable to provide a rigid armour rating
** cost if purchased ; can often be obtained free from local resources,
but construction time is doubled.
(1) - cannot retain pressure integrity undersea or in a vacuum.
(2) - cannot retain pressure integrity in a vacuum.
(3) - requires power of 1kW per cubic metre to maintain rating ;
electropolymorphic armour has a toughness of 30 with power 
on (1MW/m3) ; potential degradation with sustained use.
(4) - requires zero gravity to manufacture ; reinforced foams have a
carbide filament substrate.
(5) - uranium backed, uranium reinforced armour.
(6) - 2-D filament sheets.

and from Harold Hale :-
Construction Materials - requires 1.43 multiple for FF&S2 compatibility

TL  Class  Type                Toughness   Mass   Price (MCr)   (Mw/kL)
 0    D    Cured Hides            0.04      1.2     0.0010
 0    D    Bone/Light Wood        0.1       0.4     0.0003
 1    D    Wood                   0.2       0.8     0.0004
 2    C    Copper**               0.75      8.5     0.0012
 3    C    Bronze*                1.1       9.0     0.003
 3    A    Iron*                  1.5       8.0     0.0016
 4    A    Soft Steel*            1.7       8.0     0.0016
 5    A    Hard Steel             2.0       8.0     0.002
 5    D    Exper. Plastics        0.2       1.0     0.0001
 6    A    Light Alloy            1.7       6.0     0.004
 6    D    Fiberglass             0.25      1.0     0.001
 6    A    Titanium Alloy         3.0       5.0     0.012
 6    A    Aluminum Alloy         1.0       3.0     0.003
 7    D    Adv. Fiberglass        0.25      0.4     0.0012
 7    A    Light Composite        4.0       7.0     0.007
 7    A    Imprv. Steel Alloy     2.5       8.0     0.005
 7    A    Laminate               2.0       6.0     0.003
 8    A    Composite Laminate     6.0       8.0     0.008
 8    A    Impr. Alum. Alloy      1.3       3.0     0.004
 8    D    Hybrid Plastics        0.5       1.5     0.0003
 8    C    Kevlar Composite       0.75      2.0     0.012
 9    A    Lt. Comp. Laminate     5.0       6.0     0.009
 9    C    Synthetics             1.5       2.0     0.015
 9    A    Advanced Steel         3.5       8.0     0.006
 9    D    Sheathed Foam          0.8       1.8     0.0005
10    A    Crystaliron            8.0      10.0     0.009
10    B    Improv. Synthetics     1.7       2.0     0.017
10    B    Foamed Aluminum        0.5       1.5     0.0045
10    A    Dense                  9.0      10.0     0.0150
11    A    Adv. Lt. Composite     5.0       7.0     0.007
11    B    Adv. Synthetics        1.9       2.0     0.019
11    B    Foamed Titanium        1.25      2.5     0.0014
11    A    Heavy Composite       11.0      13.0     0.0117
11    C    Doped Plastics         1.0       1.0     0.0004
12    A    Superdense (SD)       14.0      15.0     0.014
12    A    Advanced Composite     9.0      11.0     0.008
12    C    Light Synthetics       1.5       1.7     0.02
13    A    Enhanced SD           18.0      15.0     0.020       0.001
13    B    Crystalcarbon         10.0       7.0     0.018
13    A    Adv. Crystraliron     10.0      10.0     0.0080
13    A    Adv. Superdense       21.0      15.0     0.0135      0.001
14    A    Bonded SD             28.0      15.0     0.028       0.001
14    A    Coherent Synthetics    3.5       2.0     0.0032
14    D    Organic Compounds***   2.0       4.0     0.100
15    A    Enhanced Bonded SD    33.0      15.0     0.031       0.001
15    A    Hybrid Crystaliron    14.0       9.0     0.0072
16    A    Collapsed Crystalline 20.0      13.0     0.022
16    A    Collapsed Metal Comp  21.0      10.0     0.010
17    A    Coherent SD           40.0      15.0     0.035       0.001
17    B    Adv. Organic Comp.***  4.0       4.0     0.150
18    A    Enhanced Coherent SD  48.0      15.0     0.052       0.001
18    B    Coherent Plastics      3.5       1.0     0.0009
19    A    Coherent Crystalline  40.0      13.0     0.030
19    A    Ultradense            80.0      20.0     0.060       0.002
20    A    Coherent Organic***    8.0       4.0     0.200
21    A    Enhanced Ultradense  100.0      20.0     0.075       0.002

* - Can be hand-forged two tech levels lower for use in personal body
armor

** - Can be hand-forged one tech level lower for use in personal body
armor

*** - Damaged to material can be replaced by regrowth-higher the tech
level
of the material, the faster the regrowth rate.

Materials are identified by a code: A - can be used for all construction
applications; B - cannot be used for starship hulls; C - cannot be used
for either starships or vehicles that can achieve orbit; D - same as
class C, except add vehicle armor.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:53:54 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Can an Imperial world live without trade?

Executive summary:

Economies of scale are not enough for the rampant
specialization which may be implied from _Far Trader_.

Economies of scale are balanced by another rule: the rule of
decreasing returns.  There is a point beyond which further
specialization does not yield significant returns.

In addition, economies of scale are non-existant unless
the technology is proven, the cost of research is paid off,
and research begins on the NEXT tech level; that's when
the corporations start mass production, to sell cheap
enough to meet demand.  In general, of course.



Long-winded:

When we talk about a world with 5000 people on it, I can
guarantee that that world is specialized beyond its ability
to survive without trade.  But when you're talking about
a world with tens of millions of people, you've got to have
infrastructure to meet everyone's needs, and that includes
local maintenance at the appropriate tech level.

...and when you're talking billions of people, then you've
gone beyond a reasonable scaling of a task.  Ever try to
run a company with one billion people?  Corporations
fit their unit sizes to the task at hand, to the demand, and
that is going to be local because someone else a subsector
or three away can do the same job for its local market.

The rule of decreasing returns has other names: too many
cooks spoil the broth.  The more people you have, the harder
it is to direct them all well.

I suggest that there is a significant economic benefit to building
10 trillion widgets of type A plus 10 trillion tons of arugula
than just building 20 trillion widgets of type A.

The question is where to draw that line... Far Trader doesn't
convince me yet.  I've got to think about it more.

That paragraph out of Far Trader sounds like it applies to
cutting-edge research into new technology; however, once
the cost of research is paid off, THEN the technology
becomes ubiquitous and reasonably priced.  Example:
items at a given tech level are greatly discounted at worlds
with a higher tech level.  That's because production is easy
and the research is done, the design proven.  Production
HAS to be easy, or else there's little demand, no market,
and no trade because the price is too high for "the market".

On the other hand, Far Trader implies that there is a
theoretical maximum to Terra's tech level.  Have you ever
thought that we might be near our TL maximum?  The
thought, frankly, has never occurred to me.  "Cover the
world and subdue it" says Genesis chapter 1.  I think
there's something about our will and ability that suggests
we have a long way to go before we're done.  And that's
TL8!  Unless, of course, we thoughtlessly eat all the
plants before we're done... remember Rapuni!

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:52:00 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

>At 08:10 AM 4/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>Government Type "M" is mentioned is Best of JTAS #1 page 26.
>>Author unknown:
>>    "The government factor in the Universal planetary profile need not be
a
>>number 0-9 or a letter A-F. For example, M could be used to indicate a
>>miliary government, perhaps a junta or coup."
>>
>>where is the refrence for the Alsan goverment type M located?
>
>GDW's Alien Module 1:Aslan, p25, and DGP's Solomani & Aslan p88.
 I don't want to be thick, but couldn't "M" stand for Matriarchy?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:01:19 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 

At 07:20 PM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 06:57 PM 4/13/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Charles writes:
>>
>>>Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3
>stationary
>>>targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub
>fires to
>>>often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.
>>
>>Assumes only 1 static meson site.
>
>	And also assumes that your favorite warship going BLOOIE tells you
>either the range to the meson gun OR the direction from which the
>shot came ... without one of those two, you can't triangulate jack ...


Actually, I had only figured on the shot giving a crude vector to the meson
gun.  As for MY favorite ship, it would have a damned good meson screen if
it were close enough to be a target.  I'd tranship anything that need to get
to the planet onto meson screened ships or very small lighters to go to the
planet and keep the ships without screens well back.

This brings up another posible point.  Using radiation sensors it might be
posible to back calculate the distance the mesons traveled before they went
boom.  If so then only one or two shots would be necessary to lock down the
meson gun's location even assuming quite a bit of slop in each reading.
Once you get the area down to double digit kilometers you can zero in with
other sensors.  Those big guns have to have power and their firing is bound
to produce waste energy and EM noise.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:01:30 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

>Best thing you can do with a Type A is, knock out the passenger staterooms and 
>convert it into either cargo space or more fuel space.  Dump the steward and 
>the medic and replace with a pair of gunners who can do other things, too, 
>like navigate, patch people up, or whatever else needs doing.  You get back 24 
>dtons from the staterooms, and 10 dtons for taking out the low berths.  That's 
>20 tons more fuel and 14 tons more cargo space.  You can now do 2xJ1 and haul 
>96 tons of cargo.  Makes a nice 'trade pioneer' variant.  IMTU, some of the 
>ships around have done this, at a C or better port, for 1/2 the cost of the 
>staterooms and low berths.
> 

That's a little pricey don't you think?  The bulkheads are already there.
All you need is to give your engineer a good supply of cutting torch gas and
put him to work.  After the gutting you'd need a few odds and ends to finish
up the job.  A good scrounge should be able to get those for free or a the
price of a round or two of drinks but IF you do not have such a person a few
K credit should get you the plate metal and piping to do the job.  And why
not sell those state rooms and there contents for a profit?  I'm sure  there
would be some demand for them on the spare parts market...

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:01:41 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

At 09:13 PM 4/16/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>>Give me Conrad Mazian or Signy Mallory over Seafort any day. And if you
>>>don't know the reference, you should ;-)
>>
>>  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have power-mad
>>sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)
>
>Me, I'd rather have Mrs. DiGriz.
>
>

Yikes!  You are a brave soul!

BTW, is that before or after the psyco-surgery?

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:42:18 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Life Support (was re: How hard can it be to kill a world!)

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> However, I think we're diverging from the point about needing interstellar
> trade.  If a planet cannot support its population for whatever  reason,
> then
> it will never be anything more than an outpost or colony.  At that point
> you may as well argue that a space ship can't get along without
> interstellar trade.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> Speaking of spaceships:
>
> Does anyone have some figures for how many dtns it takes to support
> a person indefinitely? Say, with regular infusions of whatever you can
> scoop from a gas giant, TL 12+ technology, and the occaisional mining
> of an asteroid?
>
> I was thinking about an old cargo vessel converted over into a mobile
> home for a travelling clan, with big chunks of the cargo bay converted
> over to hydroponics, rabbit hutches, etc.

I did that a while back.  I don't remember what my result was, but I think it
was like 40 kL per person.  That included Algae tanks for air/waste recycle
and a vegetarian diet.  You'd probably still want to check in periodically for
annual maintenance.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:01:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 

> In the story, its a high TL sword.  It leads me to think that some weapons
> would be real nice at TL 15
> 
> An armor-piercing crossbow.

With a power crank and an appropriate magazine mechanism, plus those
itty-bitty SEFOP HE arrowheads, you would have an interesting toy.

> Longbows with veeery long ranges.

Harder to do, as long as these are strictly muscle power...the world record
for a hand bow shot was set a long time ago, though the rules might exclude
compound bows from that. The real high teck trick is to get really, really
stiff arrows...a significant portion of a bows energy goes into flexing the
arrow. With a longbow, high speed photography reveals that the arrows get a
significant U-bend in them when fired. The wobble induced by the arrow
snapping back also affects distance and accuracy.

Then, there's those HE arroheads, again...;-)

> A two-handed sword that will dent battledress.

Just has to be sharp enough. Really advanced ceramics and composites ought to
hold close enough to a monoatomic edge. Make the rest of the blade thin and
slippery enough and you can cut through just about anything. The real trick is
making the sheath for such a sword. 

Perhaps an advanced, gravitics formed, high energy plasma wand...which will
cut through anything, except of course, another advanced, gravitics formed,
high energy plasma wand...;-) Just so long as they make the appropriate
ZZZzzzhhhhhhoooopWuuuuunnnnngggggg noise when you turn them on.

Or...sinclair monofilament, anyone? "...watch the glowing little red ball..."

Speaking of which...what about that stuff...is there any canon reference to
such a material? I can't believe they didn't steal _that_ from Niven along
with everything else.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #457
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 458



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated
Re: Selling
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Selling
Re: Life Support (was re: How hard can it be to kill a world!)
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
RE: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
high-tech versions of low-tech weapons
WOW! Good programmer news...
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)
Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Jump Q's
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:24:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated

Phil Kitching wrote (slightly reformatted):

> >> Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits and bought a
> >> better ship?
> >> 
> >> I'm confused.
> >> 
> >> The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell it for the
> >> full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a deposit on
> >> their next ship. In practice, the bank would want cancellation fees
> >> and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay less than full
> >> price - so they would make a loss.
> >
> >If you have the Type A paid off and get the book value for it, you get 
> >MCr 37, which you can use for the deposit on the new ship.  What I've 
> >done in the past is, kept on trading after the Type A is paid off, with
> >the profits rolled over to build up to the deposit needed for the new 
> >ship.  Then, when the new ship is about due to be delivered, sell the 
> >Type A for whatever you can get to finance the first trade pioneering
> >cruise.  <grin>  Timing is everything.
>
> Michel said his players *immediately* sold the ship, so the most they could
> get back was the deposit.
> Even after only 2 years, you still won't get book value (ie MCr37) for it.

Unless, of course, they got multiple Free Trader results from character gen,
in which case they might have 10 or more years of payments already made.
(Each additional receipt of a merchant ship pays off 10 years of the 40 year
mortgage under both CT and MT....)  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:33:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Krazy Kat <krazykat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Selling

> Seriously, people here will buy, but it's kind of a
> waste of bandwith. 
> There's a web site hosted by one of our members (and
> part of the
> Traveller Webring) that has a place specifically for
> selling stuff. 
> 
What's the URL?
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:49:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

On 04/16/99 01:48:11 Joe Pettit  wrote:
>However, I think we're diverging from the point about needing interstellar trade.  If a planet
>cannot support its population for whatever  reason, then it will never be anything more than an
>outpost or colony.  At that point you may as well argue that a space ship can't get along 
without
>interstellar trade.
>

     I'm sorry, but I think this is a little silly.  At their hey-day, neither Rome nor Athens 
could produce enough food for their citizens and had to import it from elsewhere.  Obviously 
neither was merely an outpost or colony.  
	The same would hold true for many worlds in the Imperium.  Asteroid worlds make great 
places for mining and industry but bad places to grow food.  Even if they conceivably could grow 
enough under domes or hydroponically, they are unlikely to because it would be so much cheaper 
to import it from a terrestrial world.  In the event that trade were suddenly cut-off, the 
asteroid world would not have the facilities in place to grow food and might starve.  Even if 
they could build the necessary ag facilities, they would be much more costly than importing food 
and consequently would cause a large decline in the standard of living.
	Let me put it even more simply: there are large gains from trade, when those gains 
disappear the affected society will either become much poorer or, in extremis, disappear.  This 
is what the Long Night and Hard Times are all about.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:58:27 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Selling

Krazy Kat wrote:

> What's the URL?

www.downport.com

follow links to the Subsidised Merchant (our very own Sword Worlder)

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:09:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Life Support (was re: How hard can it be to kill a world!)

Walter G. Smith wrote:
> 
>
> Does anyone have some figures for how many dtns it takes to support
> a person indefinitely? Say, with regular infusions of whatever you can
> scoop from a gas giant, TL 12+ technology, and the occaisional mining
> of an asteroid?
> 
> I was thinking about an old cargo vessel converted over into a mobile
> home for a travelling clan, with big chunks of the cargo bay converted
> over to hydroponics, rabbit hutches, etc.
> 

IIRC, FFS2 has some stats on doing 'vegetable patch' life support.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:11:26 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>      I'm sorry, but I think this is a little silly.  At their hey-day, neither Rome nor Athens
> could produce enough food for their citizens and had to import it from elsewhere.  Obviously
> neither was merely an outpost or colony.
>         The same would hold true for many worlds in the Imperium.  Asteroid worlds make great
> places for mining and industry but bad places to grow food.  Even if they conceivably could grow
> enough under domes or hydroponically, they are unlikely to because it would be so much cheaper
> to import it from a terrestrial world.  In the event that trade were suddenly cut-off, the
> asteroid world would not have the facilities in place to grow food and might starve.  Even if
> they could build the necessary ag facilities, they would be much more costly than importing food
> and consequently would cause a large decline in the standard of living.
>         Let me put it even more simply: there are large gains from trade, when those gains
> disappear the affected society will either become much poorer or, in extremis, disappear.  This
> is what the Long Night and Hard Times are all about.

This puts me in mind of one of Phil Kitching's designs which I loved ...

So assuming Phil's figures are correct, can you beat 7,377Cr per person
per year by importing the food ?

By the way, Far Trader, is the best GT product out to date IMHO.

The owner of my FLGS says he has sold more Far Traders than any other GURPS
suplement, ever.

Ewan

***************************

Garden Class
Agricultural Satellite (FF&Sv2, spreadsheet by Andy Akins)              
Designed by Postmark Design Bureau              
                
Statistics              
        Tons:             1,000,000std ( USL Thin Disc )        
        Volume:          14,000,000m3   
        Mass (L/C):       5,575,435t/5,575,332t 
        Dimensions:             562.2m x 562.2m x 56.8m 
        Size:                    12
        Crew:                    59/65
        Science:                 35
        Cost:                18,609.782 MCr
        Maintenance Points: 219,981
        Tech Level:              15
        
Electronics             
        Controls: Holographic, High automation. 10xFibComp (CM:0.2 CP:5.0).
Bridge.     
        Communications: 2xRadio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 2xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).     
 
        Sensors: 2xPas. Scanner (13 [5mkm], 0MW). 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW).
                  4xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 1MW).   
        Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:1 (1 at 17471MW), Act:1, Neu:1, Grav:-2
        
Performance
    0.1/0.1     Contra-grav (11,900MW)
        0       Power  (/Fus:29,500MW,0.5yr )
        105.4   Fuel
0/88/12/0/0     Accomodations 
        400     Life Sup. (/Ty:EnB,Nm /'St)
        1       G-Comp 
        0 [27]  Armor, 59 Structure
Features
        10000xDecontamination Airlock
            3xOrdinary Galley (Cap:30)
            2xElectronic Shop (   6std ea.)
            4xSickbay         (   8std ea.)
            2xMachine Shop    (  10std ea.)
            4xLaboratory      (   8std ea.)
            2xGym             (   2.5std ea.)

Small Craft
           10xJetBay          (  20std)
           10xDockRing        (1000std)

Backups
        Communications: 2xRadio (1,000AU). 10xLaser (1,000AU).
                
Crew Details
        39xEngr. 12xMain. 8xCmnd. 2xStew. 4xMed.

The Garden class satellites have been designed to allow the population of
almost
any system with at low cost (as low as 7,377Cr per person per year)
Able to produce food irrespective of the local ecology and with sufficient
manoeuvre
to be able to exist even in asteroid fields, the Garden class only needs
enough
local shipping to be able to take the food where it is needed.

To this end it can dock up to three 1kdt transports simultaneously.

All of the airlocks have advanced decontamination facilities to reduce
to spread of any unwanted organisims, either on board or off.

The thiry five trained mission specialists are backed up by an impressive
suite
of laboratories and computer facilities - sufficient to overcome almost any
agricultural disaster that you might be facing.

Garden class satellites are available in 4 designs according to need:

        Food Type       Food for
        Algae Vats      135,000
        Garden           67,500
        Small Animals    27,000
        Large Animals     9,000


*********************************

Ewan

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:13:00 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>

: >  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have
power-mad
: >sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)
:
: Me, I'd rather have Mrs. DiGriz.
:

Hubba hubba!  Ditzie's nanny, perhaps? :-D


Acting V.Adm. C. Michael,
Sword Worlds Navy, Gram Fleet:
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:24:20 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated

True but the value of the ship also goes down with each 10yr payment.
Granted since the player didn't actually put money down this is free money.
True also they more than likely would not be able to buy another ship
outright, especially one custom built.  They would have a nice down payment
on one though.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Steven Bonneville [mailto:bonnevil@ima.umn.edu]
		Sent:	Friday, April 16, 1999 11:24 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the
Technically Terminated

		Phil Kitching wrote (slightly reformatted):

		> >> Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits
and bought a
		> >> better ship?
		> >> 
		> >> I'm confused.
		> >> 
		> >> The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell
it for the
		> >> full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a
deposit on
		> >> their next ship. In practice, the bank would want
cancellation fees
		> >> and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay
less than full
		> >> price - so they would make a loss.
		> >
		> >If you have the Type A paid off and get the book value
for it, you get 
		> >MCr 37, which you can use for the deposit on the new
ship.  What I've 
		> >done in the past is, kept on trading after the Type A is
paid off, with
		> >the profits rolled over to build up to the deposit needed
for the new 
		> >ship.  Then, when the new ship is about due to be
delivered, sell the 
		> >Type A for whatever you can get to finance the first
trade pioneering
		> >cruise.  <grin>  Timing is everything.
		>
		> Michel said his players *immediately* sold the ship, so
the most they could
		> get back was the deposit.
		> Even after only 2 years, you still won't get book value
(ie MCr37) for it.

		Unless, of course, they got multiple Free Trader results
from character gen,
		in which case they might have 10 or more years of payments
already made.
		(Each additional receipt of a merchant ship pays off 10
years of the 40 year
		mortgage under both CT and MT....)  

		  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:44:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

Ewan Quibell wrote:
> 
>
> 
> Garden Class
> Agricultural Satellite (FF&Sv2, spreadsheet by Andy Akins)
> Designed by Postmark Design Bureau
> 

Ka-snipp

>         Large Animals     9,000

But when you have such a large K'Kree ship in your belt, how do you keep
'em on the ranch, so to speak?

What _does_ a K'Kree prod look like, anyway?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:44:12 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: high-tech versions of low-tech weapons

My standard rant on this can be found at

http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/SV/TRAV/TravSwords.shtml


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:20:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: WOW! Good programmer news...

All you programmers out there, Mac and PC alike, check out:

http://www.macnn.com/contributions/realbasic20.shtml

The latest release of RealBasic for the Mac allegedly will cross compile
RealBasic programs to VisualBasic, and porting Vbasic to RealBasic is
pretty easy, too. 

Of course this applies only to programs without added binary libraries
in use. I'm sure there are other significant caveats.

Real Basic is available from:

http://www.realsoftware.com and is an amazingly good VisualBasic like
compiler for PowerMacs (it will compile both PowerPC and 68K code);
quite cheap, as well, $99 ($59 academic pricing) or $299 ($179 academic)
for the Pro version. Anyone ordering from an .edu site or the following
get's the academic pricing.

    Email address ending in .K12 
    Email address ending in .ac followed by a country suffix 
    Email address ending in .cc followed by a state and the ".us" suffix 
    A billing or shipping address for an academic institution 
    Fax or scan of employee or student ID card 

You need the Pro version to crosscompile Win95/98/NT apps from the Mac
code.

I'm getting this soon, (though probably NOT the pro version, unless a
check I'm expecting is significantly bigger than I thought) and so willl
have a first hand report (and hopefully a program or two to go with it,
too!)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:28:20 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

At 10:10 PM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Ob. Trav:  What happens when TL12-15 decides to make
>TL 1-2 weapons?
In GURPS (not GT) you can put Monowire on the blade and make it devastating
(+1d damage and a 10 (!) armor divisor)

>
>An armor-piercing crossbow.
There's a Crossbow-11 in T4... It's almost as good as a pistol

>Wasn't there some discussion months ago about Axe-wielders in Battledress
>as a boarding party?
Again, in GURPS (not GT) a battlesuit with Strength 80 or so (whish is
quite reasonable for a heavy battlesuit; Traveller battledress tend to be
_much_ lighter) wielding a monowire sword can do more damage than anything
short of a PGMP....  And you don't want to use that inside a ship, anyway....

It's not actually much damage, but against heavily armored targets, the
armor divisor is very effective.  Pay attention as the battlesuited trooper
cuts his way into a Grav tank...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:41:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

On 04/16/99 07:53:54 you wrote:
>
>Executive summary:
>
>Economies of scale are not enough for the rampant
>specialization which may be implied from _Far Trader_.
>
>Economies of scale are balanced by another rule: the rule of
>decreasing returns.  There is a point beyond which further
>specialization does not yield significant returns.
>
>In addition, economies of scale are non-existant unless
>the technology is proven, the cost of research is paid off,
>and research begins on the NEXT tech level; that's when
>the corporations start mass production, to sell cheap
>enough to meet demand.  In general, of course.
>
>
>
>Long-winded:
>
>When we talk about a world with 5000 people on it, I can
>guarantee that that world is specialized beyond its ability
>to survive without trade.  But when you're talking about
>a world with tens of millions of people, you've got to have
>infrastructure to meet everyone's needs, and that includes
>local maintenance at the appropriate tech level.
>
>...and when you're talking billions of people, then you've
>gone beyond a reasonable scaling of a task.  Ever try to
>run a company with one billion people?  Corporations
>fit their unit sizes to the task at hand, to the demand, and
>that is going to be local because someone else a subsector
>or three away can do the same job for its local market.
>
>The rule of decreasing returns has other names: too many
>cooks spoil the broth.  The more people you have, the harder
>it is to direct them all well.
>
>I suggest that there is a significant economic benefit to building
>10 trillion widgets of type A plus 10 trillion tons of arugula
>than just building 20 trillion widgets of type A.
>
>The question is where to draw that line... Far Trader doesn't
>convince me yet.  I've got to think about it more.
>
>That paragraph out of Far Trader sounds like it applies to
>cutting-edge research into new technology; however, once
>the cost of research is paid off, THEN the technology
>becomes ubiquitous and reasonably priced.  Example:
>items at a given tech level are greatly discounted at worlds
>with a higher tech level.  That's because production is easy
>and the research is done, the design proven.  Production
>HAS to be easy, or else there's little demand, no market,
>and no trade because the price is too high for "the market".
>
>On the other hand, Far Trader implies that there is a
>theoretical maximum to Terra's tech level.  Have you ever
>thought that we might be near our TL maximum?  The
>thought, frankly, has never occurred to me.  "Cover the
>world and subdue it" says Genesis chapter 1.  I think
>there's something about our will and ability that suggests
>we have a long way to go before we're done.  And that's
>TL8!  Unless, of course, we thoughtlessly eat all the
>plants before we're done... remember Rapuni!
>
>-Rob
>


Firstly, I think you're confusing economies of scale with mass production.  
Economies of scale begin to kick in whenever you build more than one of 
something and don't require you to be pumping out gazillions of identical 
units.  In their narrowest definition, economies of scale occur when there 
are fixed costs to production.  For instance, the producer has to make large 
investments in specialized people and machinery no matter how many widgets 
he produces.  There are also costs that occur per unit produced, these are 
called marginal costs.  The unit cost of something is the marginal cost plus 
a portion of the fixed costs.

UC = MC + FC/x

UC=Unit Cost per widget
MC=Marginal Cost
FC=Fixed Cost
x=#of units produced

Now, if for some widget FC=100MCr and MC= 1MCr then:

x=1, UC=101
x=2, UC=51
x=10, UC=11
x=100, UC=2
x=1000, UC=1.1
x=10,000, UC=1.01

Notice how rapidly the unit cost declines even early on?  Just producing two 
widgets instead of one cuts costs in half.  In fact, the largest gains come 
with the earliest increases in scale.

The second point I'd like to make is that since the largest gains come with 
the earliest increases in scale, economies of scale apply most powerfully to 
relatively small batches of specialized goods.  This is probably counter to 
your intuition, but as the above example illustrates, it is true.  This 
means that economies of scale are not important where you're producing 10 
trillion widgets versus 20 trillion widgets.  They're most important where 
Dr. Zafius and his lab team are producing 100 units of gizmos to serve the 
entire annual market of the Spinward Marches.  Without a market as large as 
an entire sector, the price of gizmos would shoot up to the point where they 
probably wouldn't be made at all.

Now I have to convince you of the existance of something so specialized as 
gizmos.  This may be more difficult.  Think about a TL-0 society.  All the 
skills available at that TL can be mastered by a small tribe or extended 
family.  Now think about our modern TL-7/8 society.  To master the profusion 
of specialized skills and subfields available, it takes virtually the entire 
developed world -- over a billion people!  We can argue about whether it 
truly takes a billion people or some subset, but the point is that it takes 
many orders of magnitude more than in a TL0 society.  This is not just true 
of technology.  Think about GDW and Traveller.  Only a very small percentage 
of the populace is interested in Traveller.  GDW survived for as long as 
they did because they sold all over North America, Europe, Australia, NZ, 
etc.  If their market had been confined to Illinois do you think they could 
have made a living?  Of course not.  My argument is that as technology 
advances the required number of specialized goods and services increases 
very rapidly, perhaps exponentially. Thus, just as a TL-7 society requires 
many orders of magnitude more skills than a TL-0 society, so too will a TL-
15 society require many orders of magnitude more skills than a TL-7 society.

Third, economies of scale are only one of three reasons I give for 
interstellar trade in Far Trader.  The other two are variety and comparative 
advantage.  If you like I can send you the whole section, but I don't want 
to clutter up the list with it.

Fourth, I do believe that there is a theoretical maximum on Earth's TL, but 
I don't think we're anywhere near it.  If nothing else, there are 6 billion 
people on Earth and only about 1 billion of them are really participating in 
our advanced industrial society.  When all 6 billion people on Earth have 
college degrees and email accounts then we'll _begin_ to test the limits of 
our technological creativity.  As you say, unless we thoughtlessly eat all 
the plants first.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:47:54 -0700
From: Adahma <adahma@starport.org>
Subject: Jump Q's

For the record, I am looking for a NON-technical answer here... :P

I am a Trav newbie(GURPS convert) and about to run my first trav
campaign.  I'm not a person that does well converting the tech-speak
that seems to be the norm for Traveller, into a "feel", if that makes
any sense.

What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  I've read
that you can jump from standing still, or while in motion.  Is there a
difference in the feel of the 2 types?

Also, I've not found reference to whether of not an extended period of
time is needed between coming out of jump, and jumping again...or is
this just a fuel issue?

Thanks in advance for your indulgence,
jdk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:50:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

On 04/16/99 17:11:26 Ewan wrote:
>This puts me in mind of one of Phil Kitching's designs which I loved ...
>
>So assuming Phil's figures are correct, can you beat 7,377Cr per person
>per year by importing the food ?

	In general, farming has got to be cheaper on a planet than an asteroid 
because the planet gives you soil, air, water, gravity, etc. for free 
whereas on an asteroid you have to build everything yourself.  You can 
imagine technologies where that wasn't the case, but then I don't think 
you're talking about something consistent with Trav background anymore. 
	The Garden-class design you attached does produce a lot of food, but 
it is generally low quality and very expensive.  Most of the food comes from 
algae vats with some vegetables and small amounts meat, most of it guinea 
pigs and such.  Canonical figures on per-capita income in Traveller have 
always been somewhat debatable, but everyone places them somewhere around 
10,000-15,000Cr/yr for the average Imperial citizen.  Devoting half to two-
thirds of one's income to food is not cheap by anyone's definition.

>By the way, Far Trader, is the best GT product out to date IMHO.
>
>The owner of my FLGS says he has sold more Far Traders than any other GURPS
>suplement, ever.

	Thanks very much for the complement and the good news!  I hope it's as 
popular elsewhere.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:48:45 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

At 08:01 AM 4/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Or...sinclair monofilament, anyone? "...watch the glowing little red ball..."
>
>Speaking of which...what about that stuff...is there any canon reference to
>such a material? I can't believe they didn't steal _that_ from Niven along
>with everything else.

According to GT, Monowire (and vibra-weapons for that matter) exist, but
are extremely rare...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:57:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

> 
> >Best thing you can do with a Type A is, knock out the passenger staterooms and 
> >convert it into either cargo space or more fuel space.  Dump the steward and 
> >the medic and replace with a pair of gunners who can do other things, too, 
> >like navigate, patch people up, or whatever else needs doing.  You get back 24 
> >dtons from the staterooms, and 10 dtons for taking out the low berths.  That's 
> >20 tons more fuel and 14 tons more cargo space.  You can now do 2xJ1 and haul 
> >96 tons of cargo.  Makes a nice 'trade pioneer' variant.  IMTU, some of the 
> >ships around have done this, at a C or better port, for 1/2 the cost of the 
> >staterooms and low berths.
> > 
> 
> That's a little pricey don't you think?  The bulkheads are already there.
> All you need is to give your engineer a good supply of cutting torch gas and
> put him to work.  After the gutting you'd need a few odds and ends to finish
> up the job.  A good scrounge should be able to get those for free or a the
> price of a round or two of drinks but IF you do not have such a person a few
> K credit should get you the plate metal and piping to do the job.  And why
> not sell those state rooms and there contents for a profit?  I'm sure  there
> would be some demand for them on the spare parts market...

OK, you have to take out more than just bulkheads and partitions.  You have to 
remove or block air vents.  You have to reroute fiber optic and/or hard lines 
and power cables.  You have to pull up the grav plates on the floor.  You have 
to retune the life support system a bit to keep it from taking out *too* much 
CO2 (remember, it's CO2 that triggers your body to *breathe*).  If you're 
installing fuel tankage, you'll have to run lines too and from the new tank 
and put in pumps that can survive the temperatures that LHyd is at.  You have 
to *INSULATE* the tanks (An old rule from somewhere that slips my mind at the 
moment says that if you enter an LHyd tank that's *NOT* empty, you *DIE* 
because you freeze to death within a round) so that the LHyd doesn't boil up 
to hydrogen gas.  IMTU, conversions like this also need *paperwork* to show 
that the conversion was *SAFE* or their spaceworthyness certificate gets 
pulled and the boat is grounded until it *DOES* comply.  All this takes a bit 
of money.  I used the figure of 1/2 the new cost to cover the entire 
conversion.  That *INCLUDES* the sale of the stripped out parts.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #458
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 459



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Jet planes
Re: Re : Materials (was Shadow of the Torturer (fwd, longish))
Re: Jump Q's
RE: Jump Q's
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Off Topic:  Cheap SW Stuff
Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Re: Government Type "M"
Re: Planetary Invasion
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:01:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

> Phil Kitching wrote (slightly reformatted):
> 
> > >> Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits and bought a
> > >> better ship?
> > >> 
> > >> I'm confused.
> > >> 
> > >> The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell it for the
> > >> full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a deposit on
> > >> their next ship. In practice, the bank would want cancellation fees
> > >> and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay less than full
> > >> price - so they would make a loss.
> > >
> > >If you have the Type A paid off and get the book value for it, you get 
> > >MCr 37, which you can use for the deposit on the new ship.  What I've 
> > >done in the past is, kept on trading after the Type A is paid off, with
> > >the profits rolled over to build up to the deposit needed for the new 
> > >ship.  Then, when the new ship is about due to be delivered, sell the 
> > >Type A for whatever you can get to finance the first trade pioneering
> > >cruise.  <grin>  Timing is everything.
> >
> > Michel said his players *immediately* sold the ship, so the most they could
> > get back was the deposit.
> > Even after only 2 years, you still won't get book value (ie MCr37) for it.
> 
> Unless, of course, they got multiple Free Trader results from character gen,
> in which case they might have 10 or more years of payments already made.
> (Each additional receipt of a merchant ship pays off 10 years of the 40 year
> mortgage under both CT and MT....)  

However, each 10 year block you take off the payments means the ship is 10 years older.  If you get 5 Free Trader results, you have a boat free and clear, but it's 40 years old.  And just *perfect* to roll on that guy's 77 Quirks table to give it some 'personality'...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:55:39 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
>Please pardon my missent draft-in-progress on this topic. :(

No worries - the more the merrier.

>> >The water displacement is not a problem if your planet has a significant
>> >population of whales or other large sea life. 
>
>Can someone explain how "displacement detection" works? I can see it 
>working on a moving sub, but what about a stationary or creeping one?

Rumour has it that you can detect, with suitable gear, the `lump' in the
ocean. Sub's don't do stopped very well, as I mentioned in a previous
post.

>> Oh, but it is. Ever seen a 7500 ton whale? 
>
>Why, there are 5,000-10,000-ton Whaloids on dozens of planets 
>in the Imperium, aren't there? 

Dozens of planets. Fine. On *those* planets, subs will work against this
kind of detection (unless the invader doesn't care about making them an
endangered species - which is exactly what the RN did in 1982, according
to rumour).

On all those without Behemoths?

>>Or one that does 40 knots? 
>
>A sub doing 40 knots has already been detected and shot at.

Today, yes - for noise reasons. At TL15?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:03:06 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jet planes

Sethkimmel wrote:

><< `It ought to dive,' said Blakeslee. `It certainly won't climb'. He then
> used his influence with the commander of the Eighth Air Force fighter
> groups to be equipped with the P-51 Mustang. 
>  >>
>
>When the jug got equipped with the "paddle-blade" propellors; their 
>performance improved DRAMATICALLY. Granted they still weren't the equal of a 
>Mustang, but they weren't the pigs that people thought they were. 

The problem was that the experienced pilots in the ETO had `grown up'
with the Spitfire (whilst flying in Eagle Squadron and with the early
USAAF units outfitted with the Spit) - and they weren't used to the
`big, heavy' school of thought.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:40:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Materials (was Shadow of the Torturer (fwd, longish))

Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Uranium : density 19g per cc, toughness 3X steel (8.57)...

[snip table]

Thank you thank you thank you thank you!
What I've been looking for!

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:46:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

Adahma wrote:
> 
> For the record, I am looking for a NON-technical answer here... :P
> 
> I am a Trav newbie(GURPS convert) and about to run my first trav
> campaign.  

Yeah! Welcome to the game.
 
> What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  I've read
> that you can jump from standing still, or while in motion.  Is there a
> difference in the feel of the 2 types?

I don't think it's ever been throughly examined in canon. On many ships
it is traditional to dim the lights just before jumping, this is mostly
observed on culturally Vilani ships, and dates back to the dawn of star
travel, when jump drives needed every erg of energy the ship could
muster to jump, and so, life support was shut down momentarily.

As for physical feelings, that's mostly up to the eref. Most I know have
the players experience a moment of disorientation or dizziness as the
ship enters jump space. Various individuals are more or less susceptible
to this. In bad cases the person can become ill with jump sickness, a la
seasickness. Very bad cases must remain drugged up or not jump at all.

Some people don't notice a thing.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:48:36 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump Q's

Adahma writes:
"What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  
I've read that you can jump from standing still, or while 
in motion.  Is there a difference in the feel of the 2 
types?

	IMTU (In My Traveller Universe), there is only a
	very subtle feeling of disorientation (caused by
	latent Psi effects) that distinguishes jump from 
	acceleration in normal space. This effect does not
	depend on the motion of the vessel.

Also, I've not found reference to whether of not an 
extended period of time is needed between coming out of 
jump, and jumping again...or is this just a fuel issue?

	Again, IMTU: even the most carefully plotted and
	executed jump is unlikely to put you exactly 
	where you aimed, so after emerging into normal 
	space the new position must be calculated and the
	next jump plotted. Even if a suicidal crew opted
	to jump immediately, without positioning and 
	plotting, I would require 10 minutes in normal 
	space to charge up and engage the jump drive. Of
	course, this assumes that the vessel carries 
	enough fuel for two successive jumps.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:47:42 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

In a message dated 4/16/99 11:07:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jamstar@earthlink.net writes:

<< However, each 10 year block you take off the payments means the ship is 10 
years older.  If you get 5 Free Trader results, you have a boat free and 
clear, but it's 40 years old.  And just *perfect* to roll on that guy's 77 
Quirks table to give it some 'personality'...
 
 Keven >>

that reminds me. Has anyone ever come up with rules for refurbish/refitting 
these 40 year old ships back into new ships as far as performance, etc. goes? 
How much would this cost, and how long would it take? This would be a good 
goal for the PC's (save up for this work...) that own a 40 year old 
clunker...Another nugget could be a ship about to lose its' spaceworthiness 
certificate due to age and wear, and the PC's attempts to avoid this...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:51:31 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

Before jumping (reluctantly) into this, let me humbly note that 
*teaching* economics at University level is my job. ;-)
I just jump in here to point out a couple of misunderstandings 
(discussing economics is too close to my job to be fun).

> From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
> >Executive summary:
<snip>
> >Economies of scale are balanced by another rule: the rule of
> >decreasing returns.  There is a point beyond which further
> >specialization does not yield significant returns.

Uh? You are probably thinking of S-shaped cost functions. Nice 
example if you are thinking of agriculture, quite dubious that it 
means anything at all in a general sense, like an aggregate economy, 
or even for high-tech food production.

What you are calling "rule of decreasing returns" is just an 
*arbitrary example* of how things *might* be for a technology. 
Totally useless as a general argument.

> >That paragraph out of Far Trader sounds like it applies to
> >cutting-edge research into new technology; however, once
> >the cost of research is paid off, THEN the technology
> >becomes ubiquitous and reasonably priced.  Example:
> >items at a given tech level are greatly discounted at worlds
> >with a higher tech level.  That's because production is easy
> >and the research is done, the design proven.  Production
> >HAS to be easy, or else there's little demand, no market,
> >and no trade because the price is too high for "the market".

> >-Rob

Assuming by *easy* you mean *cheap,* that's a way to put things. 
Demand, however, comes from the population, and we are *far* from 
understanding it. Saying "little demand, no market" is therefore 
dangerous. Plenty of examples of demand for expensive, inefficiently 
produced goods even in the presence of cheaper substitutes. 

> Firstly, I think you're confusing economies of scale with mass production.  
> Economies of scale begin to kick in whenever you build more than one of 
> something and don't require you to be pumping out gazillions of identical 
> units.  In their narrowest definition, economies of scale occur when there 
> are fixed costs to production.  For instance, the producer has to make large 

Uh? Wrong definition. That's just an example which implies economies 
of scale, or, to be mroe rigorous, increasing returns to scale. The 
cost function c(x)=log (x+1) is an example of increasing returns to 
scale without any fixed costs.

> investments in specialized people and machinery no matter how many widgets 
> he produces.  There are also costs that occur per unit produced, these are 
> called marginal costs.  The unit cost of something is the marginal cost plus 
> a portion of the fixed costs.
> 
> UC = MC + FC/x
> 
> UC=Unit Cost per widget
> MC=Marginal Cost
> FC=Fixed Cost
> x=#of units produced

Sorry, you failed my Economics 101 course! ;-)
As I say to my students 100 times per semester, Marginal Cost does 
not need to be constant. See the above example. That's the most 
common mistake of economists: to believe that the world is linear. 
It's not (in general).

All these simple examples that are taught at the basic courses in the 
faculties do not resist even the slightest reality check. Sad but 
true.
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:55:51 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

[snip economics lesson :-)]

> My argument is that as technology
> advances the required number of specialized goods and services increases
> very rapidly, perhaps exponentially. Thus, just as a TL-7 society requires
> many orders of magnitude more skills than a TL-0 society, so too will a TL-
> 15 society require many orders of magnitude more skills than a TL-7 society.

To help understand this point, if you've read the Hitchhiker's books,
just think about the Arc B people (if I have the name right).  The hairdressers
and public phone cleaners who one society believed to be expendable.
They survived where the rest of their society died from a virus spread by
public phone booths.

:-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:15:06 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Off Topic:  Cheap SW Stuff

- --------------88385F47BB913B6F9B43D193
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just in case any of my Traveller pals also play Star Wars (especially
with the new movie coming out), I thought I'd pass along this message I
wrote about a web site that I've done business with for SW RPG
materials.

Enjoy,

Kenneth.



- ----------



Someone on the net told me about this web site, and it's amazing if you
are a SW role player.  Cheap, cheap, cheap stuff.

I've used them twice, and I bought everything I didn't already own.
They've got the hard back books for $5, and they've got soft back books
for $3.

Amazing.

For instance, my local game store has The Planet's Collection softback
for $30.  I bought it through these guys for $3.

If you need SW RPG stuff, I highly recommend them.  The address--

http://www.games.hranet.com/

...Just spreading the word as it was spread to me.

Kenneth.

- --------------88385F47BB913B6F9B43D193
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Just in case any of my Traveller pals also play Star Wars (especially with
the new movie coming out), I thought I'd pass along this message I wrote
about a web site that I've done business with for SW RPG materials.

<P>Enjoy,

<P>Kenneth.
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>----------
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Someone on the net told me about this web site, and it's amazing if
you are a SW role player.&nbsp; Cheap, cheap, cheap stuff.

<P>I've used them twice, and I bought everything I didn't already own.&nbsp;
They've got the hard back books for $5, and they've got soft back books
for $3.

<P>Amazing.

<P>For instance, my local game store has The Planet's Collection softback
for $30.&nbsp; I bought it through these guys for $3.

<P>If you need SW RPG stuff, I highly recommend them.&nbsp; The address--

<P><U><A HREF="http://www.games.hranet.com/">http://www.games.hranet.com/</A></U>

<P>...Just spreading the word as it was spread to me.

<P>Kenneth.</HTML>

- --------------88385F47BB913B6F9B43D193--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:10:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Royal Navy Adventures in the 56th Century

"Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Got it.  Anyone else think Heavy Time/Hellburner would make an interesting
>Traveller plotline?  The riders could be real scary for conventional
>Traveller warships. :-)

Yep! When CORE/BITS was preparing the M0 version of the Dag Sourcebook
(based on the SGK material) for IG, I had one of the subsectors. Set in
Year 20, I had a few last remnants of the Interstellar Confederacy Navy
lurking piratically in a cluster, with big TL12 (TL11 HePLAR drives)
carriers a la CJ Cherryh.

Doug Berry did a really nice design for us, which would have taken out the
90kdt Coronation class, but IG disappeared, then Excel ate the design. I
don't know if Doug ever recovered it.

>Heck, Cherryh in general is heavily mineable for Traveller ideas.

Absolutely - my orbital stations are heavily influenced by her books.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:43:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

On 04/16/99 20:51:31 you wrote:
>
>Before jumping (reluctantly) into this, let me humbly note that 
>*teaching* economics at University level is my job. ;-)
>I just jump in here to point out a couple of misunderstandings 
>(discussing economics is too close to my job to be fun).

     I'm an economics graduate student.  

>> Firstly, I think you're confusing economies of scale with mass 
production.  
>> Economies of scale begin to kick in whenever you build more than one of 
>> something and don't require you to be pumping out gazillions of identical 
>> units.  In their narrowest definition, economies of scale occur when 
there 
>> are fixed costs to production.  For instance, the producer has to make 
large 
>
>Uh? Wrong definition. That's just an example which implies economies 
>of scale, or, to be mroe rigorous, increasing returns to scale. The 
>cost function c(x)=log (x+1) is an example of increasing returns to 
>scale without any fixed costs.

	The example I used is how we tend to teach it to non-major 
undergraduates.  It seemed like the appropriate level for this audience as 
well.  Your definition is certainly more general, but the fixed cost example 
I find people grasp intuitively more quickly and it is not incorrect.

>> investments in specialized people and machinery no matter how many 
widgets 
>> he produces.  There are also costs that occur per unit produced, these 
are 
>> called marginal costs.  The unit cost of something is the marginal cost 
plus 
>> a portion of the fixed costs.
>> 
>> UC = MC + FC/x
>> 
>> UC=Unit Cost per widget
>> MC=Marginal Cost
>> FC=Fixed Cost
>> x=#of units produced
>
>Sorry, you failed my Economics 101 course! ;-)
>As I say to my students 100 times per semester, Marginal Cost does 
>not need to be constant. See the above example. That's the most 
>common mistake of economists: to believe that the world is linear. 
>It's not (in general).

	I'm sorry to hear about my grade.  Constant marginal costs are a 
staple of undergraduate economics and I saw no reason to introduce 
additional complications here.  I was just trying to make a point with this 
example, not grant a degree.  
	Since you earlier disparaged decreasing returns to scale, I suppose 
you would argue that MC should fall with scale.  I don't see that this is 
any more realistic or generally true than constant or increasing MC.

>All these simple examples that are taught at the basic courses in the 
>faculties do not resist even the slightest reality check. Sad but 
>true.

	I'm perfectly aware that reality is more complex than this, but 
stylized examples are very useful for making an argument more clear which 
was all I was trying to do.
	I'm CC'ing this directly to you so that if you wish to continue this 
discussion further we can easily do it off-list.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:54:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

Snip of long economics esoterica...

Now I begin to truly understand the old saw about "If all the economists
of the world were laid end to end, they'd point everywhere" ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:17:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

At 08:52 AM 4/16/99 -0400, you wrote:

> I don't want to be thick, but couldn't "M" stand for Matriarchy?

A matirarchy could anyone of several Traveller government types:

0.  Female family leaders dominate.

2.  Only women can vote

3.  Women leaders, with men having no voice in civil affairs.

4.  Same as #2

8 & 9: Women occupy all leadership posts in the bureaucracy.

A:  Female dictator.

D:  Female priestesshood.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:35:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Invasion

At 05:04 PM 4/15/99 +0100, you wrote:

>How do you think submarines navigate at the moment? Or aircraft before
>the commercial release of GPS? Inertial navigation has been around for
>years, but it was kinds large. It was easier (and more accurate, at the
>time) to put GPS up than to miniaturise and ruggedise inertial systems.

This version is supposed to fit in the BDU cargo pocket.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:22:45 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> >Before jumping (reluctantly) into this, let me humbly note that
> >*teaching* economics at University level is my job. ;-)

>      I'm an economics graduate student.

I am neither currently, although I *used* to be one of the above. ;->
One of my graduate degrees was in Business, so I got plenty of
economics among other things, but the *thrust* of my courses was aimed
at practice rather than theory.
 
>         The example I used is how we tend to teach it to non-major
> undergraduates.  

Yes, it is, I remember it well.

> Your definition is certainly more general, but the fixed cost example
> I find people grasp intuitively more quickly and it is not incorrect.

True, but in a limited subset of cases, of course.
 
> >> UC = MC + FC/x
> >>
> >> UC=Unit Cost per widget
> >> MC=Marginal Cost
> >> FC=Fixed Cost
> >> x=#of units produced

> >Sorry, you failed my Economics 101 course! ;-)

Carlos, that's a bit harsh! At least, give him a chance at a retest.
;-> 

Frankly, 

UC = f(MC) + FC/x

is so much better than the flat unit costs I've seen implied in all
previous versions of Traveller that I'm thrilled. 

> >As I say to my students 100 times per semester, Marginal Cost does
> >not need to be constant. See the above example. That's the most
> >common mistake of economists: to believe that the world is linear.
> >It's not (in general).

That's true.  However, Jim *is* correct that a flat marginal cost is
used in many examples taught to introductory (and non-major)
students.  

>     Since you earlier disparaged decreasing returns to scale, I suppose
> you would argue that MC should fall with scale.  I don't see that this is
> any more realistic or generally true than constant or increasing MC.
 
Guys, all three cases are true, depending on what you are modeling and
at what level of production you are modeling it, but I'm sure you both
know that. ;->

Almost by definition, marginal costs are "the costs at the margin of
production"..the additional cost to produce one more unit. Marginal
costs can be driven up by a tightening raw material supply or labor
pool, changes in transportation costs, and production capacity
problems. They can be driven down by new (or improved) production
capacity and technology, by new sources of supply and labor, as well
as by simple experience.  Or have I flunked Carlos' course too? ;->

Eris,
  who studied all this in what seems like another lifetime

What's that?  NO! They were *not* still using rocks as a unit of
exchange in my day, bronze *had* been invented. <wink>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:21:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade (LONG)

On 04/16/99 12:54:47 Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>Snip of long economics esoterica...
>
>Now I begin to truly understand the old saw about "If all the economists
>of the world were laid end to end, they'd point everywhere" ;-)

	I heard it as "...they still wouldn't reach a conclusion."
	I dont' think Carlos and I are actually disagreeing on anything substantive.  He just 
thought I could have laid out the theory in a more general way.  He's right of course, I just 
thought it would be easier if I left out those details. *shrug*


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:27:37 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade

Bruce Johnson wrote:
 
> Snip of long economics esoterica...
 
> Now I begin to truly understand the old saw about "If all the economists
> of the world were laid end to end, they'd point everywhere" ;-)

Ain't *that* the truth! ;->

Remember UC = f(MC) + FC/x, though it might come in handy. 

Ok, and more to the point for Traveller trade, Jim and Carlos do you
want to take us through supply and demand curves, with a nice long
discussion of elasticity? <gd&r>

Eris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #459
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 16 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 460



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump Q's
Planetary Defense
MT Referee's Companion
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Drop Tanks (Long)
Armor
Re: Government Type "M"
Re: Armor
Traveller Economics
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
Re: World Conquest
Re: Traveller Economics
Re: Armor
Re: Traveller Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:28:32 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

Adahma wrote:
> What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  I've read
> that you can jump from standing still, or while in motion.  Is there a
> difference in the feel of the 2 types?

Hope this isn't too techie for you ... non-techie summary at  end
of post.

According to the MegaTraveller ruleset ... specifically  Starship
Operator's Manual p14 states:

    "Many feel a distinct 'wrenching' sensation  during  jump
    transition, but few suffer any lasting  effect.  In  rare
    cases, an individual may feel nauseated for a brief  time
    following jump transition.

    In cases of misjump, however, the instances of nausea and
    similar discomforts often increase.  An unusual number of
    such complaints is taken very seriously, as it  often  is
    the first indication that a misjump has occurred."

It also states that the laws of conservation of mass  and  energy
apply to craft entering and leaving jumpspace  (ie.  it  has  the
same speed and direction leaving jumpspace  as  it  did  when  it
entered).

    "In cases where the origin and destination stars  have  a
    great proper motion  with  respect  to  each  other,  the
    navigation computer automatically compensates for  it  in
    the jump vector computations.  If factors  such  as  this
    were not considered, the ship may  find  itself  hurtling
    through space in an undesirable speed  and  direction  in
    the new  system,  and  be  unable  to  counter  with  its
    remaining fuel supply."  (SOM p13)

If you think about it, what this says is  that  if  you  are  "at
rest" relative to your  origin  then  you  are  moving  (to  some
degree) relative to your destination.  Thus "standing  still"  or
"in motion" depends on your perspective ... so I guess  it  would
feel the same between these "2 types" (because these 2 types  are
really 1 type).

Dimming the lights before the navigator  starts  the  final  jump
sequence is a Vilani tradition that stems from a time when  every
watt of power was needed to make a safe jump.  It  is  no  longer
necessary.  Some ship captains continue the tradition ... because
it is a tradition, because of supersition, or to create an effect
for passengers on a liner.  But just as many don't.  (Talking  of
supersitions: Droyne place a set of gold coyn's  under  the  jump
drive floor bolts, and Vargr beat up the first  crew  member  who
comes aboard.)

What one sees from within a craft in jump is problematic:

- - According  to  SOM  you  can  only  see  "the  undulating  gray
  'nothingness' of the protective jump field".

- - Loren Wiseman (IIRC) suggested recently that it looks like  the
  "snow" of an untuned TV (not the blue screen that  some  modern
  TVs display ... but like in the film Poltergeist).

- - Someone on the TML pointed out that after a week in jump, if it
  wasn't black then there was a problem with heat build-up.



Summary:

1) Most people feel a  wrenching  sensation  when  jumping.  Some
   also feel a moment of nausea.  If many people feel nausea then
   it is probably a misjump.

2) No difference to sensation based on ship motion.

3) Captain _may_ dim the lights prior to jump (due  to  tradition
   or supersition).

4) Jumpspace looks ...
   a) Gray
   b) TV snow
   c) Black
   d) None of the above

5) Don't know what the minimum turn around time is between  jumps
   but suspect it is a fuel issue ... you can have "dismountable"
   fuel tanks installed in a craft's  cargo  bay  which  (if  big
   enough) allow the craft to make a second jump.



Of course, what you do in your  GURPS  campaign  is  up  to  you.
Remember its YTU (Your Traveller Universe)!  Hope this helps.

Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:37:00 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Planetary Defense

If a Black Globe generator small enough to fit on a starship (albeit, a
capital warship) can be developed at TL 15, when are they first introduced
into Planetary Defense?  I mean, if it takes an enclosure the size of a
small building, and requires a power plant capable of running a small city,
but it protects your metropolotin areas (or your planetary defense sites),
wouldn't it be deployed?

Jerry Pournelle does a really good job of describing how the shapes of
cities are affected by the physics of his 'Langston Field' - a very similar
device.

What happens if you run a Black Globe in an atmosphere?

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:08:11 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: MT Referee's Companion

Just acquired a copy of this. Is there any errata for it? (Having just 
gotten done going through the box set w/ huge printout in hand... ;)

Thanks,

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:11:18 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Matt Clonfero writes:
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> >Can someone explain how "displacement detection" works? I can see it
> >working on a moving sub, but what about a stationary or creeping one?
> 
> Rumour has it that you can detect, with suitable gear, the `lump' in the
> ocean.

I'm asking for more detail on this. It seems to me that a stopped 
sub won't make any more of a lump than the equivalent mass/volume 
of water. Also, how shallow does the sub have to be running, to be 
detected this way? 

> Sub's don't do stopped very well, as I mentioned in a previous
> post.

5 knot creep, then. Or, to turn your own point against 
you, an interstellar-tech sub shouldn't have any problem at 
all using thrusters to hold still. That same sub can also run
insanely deep. At interstellar tech, by the way, a sub is 
equivalent to an SDB with < 1G maneuver drive, with fuel tanks 
expanded in volume until the average density of the ship matches 
the density of the water it's sitting in. 

(Didn't someone just go through this tech escalation thing
when trying to discuss atmospheric versus aerospace versus
space fighters? :)
 
> >>Or one that does 40 knots?
> >
> >A sub doing 40 knots has already been detected and shot at.
> 
> Today, yes - for noise reasons. At TL15?

Tomorrow, yes, to avoid the rumored "displacement detection".
Once you have a silent propulsion system, how fast can you 
run an elongated teardrop shape that big through water 
without creating an audible rush? That would be the upper 
limit on stealthy sub maneuvering. 

- -RB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:43:56 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks (Long)

Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:48:15 -0500, "Thad K. Sneed" <revtks@apex2000.net>
>I disagree.  In fact, the Real World(tm) is full of companies doing business
>with equipment that is out-dated or ill-suited to its purpose.  Companies
>are still using computer equipment, for example, that is badly in need of
>upgrade/replacement even though the advantages of updating are quite clear.

Well, the only times I can think of the happening is when there
is a cash flow problem for that company or they are just ignorant
of what they can use.  This doesn't scale to society as a whole
because there will always be someone not in this position.

>if Drop Tanks are the greatest thing since microwave popcorn, there will be
>large segments of the industry that will not use them for any number of
>arbitrary reasons.

Well, have a _segement_ doesn't change the problem.  (thought there
is the other problem that they are cheap enough that if you
competetors are using them, you will have to, or go out of business).


>I'm not saying that they will be expensive to build.  I am saying that if a
>conversion to Drop Tanks occurs, and reliance on jump stations follows, then
>inter-system traffic will become dependant on them.

Just like ships that can to wilderness fueling are dependant on
buying fuel at ports.

>  Thus, if a jumpstation
>is insufficient, bottlenecks will occur.  Determining the size and capacity
>of stations will be important to minimize delays and to avoid building
>excess capability (that would be wasted).  If modern automobile traffic
>control could be used as an example, I picture long delays in busy systems
>and finding some systems with jump stations with little to do but count
>tanks.

Temporarily.  However, if they are as cheap as they appear to be,
then one will simply build more capacity with a little extra for
busy periods (so there won't be any more bottlenecks than their will
be for buying fuel at the station).

>Basically I agree that Drop Tanks can become a fly in the ointment if not
>handled properly.  I am trying to point out though, that for those of us who
>don't wan't to use them (or significantly reduce their use), there are ample
>opportunities to come up with plausible explanations as to why they aren't
>used.  Furthermore, we don't have to come up with one 'Big' reason, we can
>rely on a number of small reasons, that when taken together spell the end of
>(or only marginal usage of) Drop Tanks.

My problem is that I don't think this works.  You have to
hem them in with too many arbitrary restrictions that aren't
intuite (or even don't make sense).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:54:46 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Armor

I think this was mentioned recently, but I can't find the relevant post.
Has anybody converted CT armor into GT terms?  Specifically, I want to know
how much DR the pierced plate hull and the meson screens on the AHL provide
(I'm trying to convert AHL into GT terms...)

If no firm conversion exists, what do you think the DR on an AHL should be?
 On the Meson screens?






          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:09:11 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Government Type "M"

At 08:52 AM 4/16/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 08:10 AM 4/12/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Government Type "M" is mentioned is Best of JTAS #1 page 26.
>>>Author unknown:
>>>    "The government factor in the Universal planetary profile need not be
>a
>>>number 0-9 or a letter A-F. For example, M could be used to indicate a
>>>miliary government, perhaps a junta or coup."
>>>
>>>where is the refrence for the Alsan goverment type M located?
>>
>>GDW's Alien Module 1:Aslan, p25, and DGP's Solomani & Aslan p88.
> I don't want to be thick, but couldn't "M" stand for Matriarchy?
>
In YTU, it can stand for whatever you want.  I was just letting you know
the official designation.  Mora in the Spinward Marches is designated "C" -
Charasmatic Oligarchy and is a matriarchy in all the descriptions I have seen.

The official government profiles that I could find are 0-9, and A-F are the
standard ones listed in the main books.  G-N (excluding I) are Aslan
government types, P-R are K'Kree governments, S-U and W are Hiver (who also
use 0,1,2 & 6).  Droyne use types 6, 7 & X.  The Imperium, Zhodani,
Solomani and Vargr all use the 0-F standard governments.

This leaves open V, Y & Z governments that I could not find governments
assigned to (aside from I & O which are always dropped).


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:02:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armor

Juliean Galak writes:
> I think this was mentioned recently, but I can't find the relevant post.
> Has anybody converted CT armor into GT terms?  Specifically, I want to know
> how much DR the pierced plate hull and the meson screens on the AHL provide
> (I'm trying to convert AHL into GT terms...)

It can't be done; the shipbuilding logic is too different.

There have been a wide variety of writeups of the AHL, however.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:17:30 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Traveller Economics

Quick sociological note ... generally speaking, American universities have
a very low tolerance for anything other than neoclassical economics.
European and British universities tend to be a lot more open to other
flavours.

Much as I like and respect John and his work, he's a neoclassical
economist, and it shows :)

Micro Stuff :

There are plenty of goods to anchor long-distance trade around.

Goods traded a long distance will be high value relative to volume ('value
dense') and either unique in source or subject to efficiencies of scale.

Sensors for starships are exteremly value dense (easily megacredits per
dton), and have a relativly low demand (basically three per starship built
each year, plus one per twenty starships in space per annum). If you get a
20% fall in production costs by building them in one place, you can ship
them a long way before transport costs exceed the volume discount. There
are many FFS2 goods with these characteristics.

You may see most economies being open only at the top end - food and other
'basic' goods are produced locally, while the world participates in trade
for machine tools, computers, luxuries, starships and so on. This is
analagous to the manorial economies of the 9th to 14th centuries - they
produced most of the stuff locally, but wine, fine cloth, weapons and
spices were imported, paid for with cash from exporting the small
agricultural and industrial surplus to the closest town or annual fair.

Macro stuff :

The Third Imperium is clearly a free-trade capitalist universe, but many of
it's worlds are definitly suffering from chronic crises of
underdevelopment. There are just too many hi-pop, lo-tech worlds that
should have progressed but didnt.

Now, the Imperium does appear to have capital markets (Hortalez et Cie will
lend money to planets), and I'm perfectly prepared to believe they work.

So, whats the answer ? Pocket Empires puts it down to high infrastructure
costs (the downpayment on going up a TL) and cultural factors - if you have
a population with a change-negative culture, then you are going to fail a
bunch of attempts to remould society into a higher-tech model.

Now, I think a theme in development is protectionist trade policies. They
arent enough by themselves (eg Latin America), but every economy that I can
think of industrialised behind a wall of import tariffs, and then went to
Free Trade.

If we assume that the Imperial Elite disapproves of protectionism (the
megacorps becasue it closes off export markets, the military becasue it's
hard to blockade an autarky - an economy that does not import), then this
becomes ahhh difficult as a development strategy - to put it bluntly,
either the Imperium will send the IISS in to subtly knock over your
government, or a megacorp will do it for them.

In any case, I think you get more adventure opportunities by assuming lots
of long distance trade.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:24:27 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote

> > So assuming Phil's figures are correct, can you beat 7,377Cr per 
> > person per year by importing the food ?

> In general, farming has got to be cheaper on a planet than an asteroid 
> because the planet gives you soil, air, water, gravity, etc. for free 
> whereas on an asteroid you have to build everything yourself.

But the market value of the planet and the land on it reflects the uses
it can be put too.  Logically if using planets is cheaper then using
asteroids more people will use planets.  As the quantity demanded of
planetary farmland goes up so will its market price.  At some point it
should reach market equalibrium with asteroids.

Planets are a good like any other, albeit one that is somewhat difficult
to transport....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:17:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In mail you write:

> We land on some suitable terrain (reasonably near the objectives);
> secure it, and bring an `insta-downport' - earthmoving equipment to
> throw up blast berms and whathaveyou, modular buildings to run the place
> out of; portable fuel facilities.
>
> While this is going on, you need to keep the defenders away from the
> landing zone. You have the advantage of orbital sensors and support fire
> (your fleet); the defenders know the area and have popular support /
> special forces (What? You mean that the main condenser on *every*
> Caterpillar is wrecked)
>
> Once you're got your heavy troops on the ground, you're almost home...
>
>
> Anyone care to turn out some designs for the modular downport and
> earthmoving gear?

I'm willing to make a bet that Engineer Corps ships have fusion drives
rather than (or possibly in adfdition to) thruster plates. 

You do a quick seismic survey by emplacing geophones and setting off
charges. You also do a pentrating radar scan (which will show the rock
under dry soil and sand, even meters down), and a densitometer scan. 

If the underlying rock checks out ok, and isn't too deep, then you have
some ships cruise back and forth with their fusion drives on "low". You
basicly fuse the area into one big chunk of rock (I bet that cooling
times compare favorably with setting times for concrete!). If you need
ity too cool faster, use lasers to drill patterns of holes in the rock.

As an area cools, you carve the blast pits etc into it. And you can be
fairly sure that there aren't any buried "surprises" waiting. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:27:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In mail you write:

> Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
> targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub fires to
> often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.

Slight problem. You do *not* know the direction the meson beam came
from. Just that it hit a specific ship. That means you don't *have*
those "straight lines" to work with.

Second, even if you can infer direction (which won't be accurate to
more than a degree or so), you don't know *which* site or sub fired.
So you've got a straight line. If it interests with another line of
fire (adjusted for the movement of the planet), that *may* indicate a
meson site. Or it may be the chance intersection of fire lines from two
*different* sites.

Heck, if the sites have comm links with each other, they'd plane their
for so as to *deliberately* cause intersections, just to mislead you.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:07:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In mail you write:

> Walter Smith wrote:
>> 
>> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> Oy!!!
>> 
>> How to turn a planetary invasion into a meatgrinder.
>> 
>> Such opressive tactics will generally not only stiffen the resolve of
>> the home team, it'll also make a huge pool of willing recruits.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> These tactics are also the only way to keep the aforementioned hideaway
>> meson guns getting accurate targeting information for the invader's 
> starport, landing craft, barracks, motor pool, visiting dignitaries, etc. 
> And the tactics
>> might not work.
>> 
>> Meat grinder is right.
>
> Especially since all it'll take is one person with binoculars and a
> compass to get you the coords to blow hell out of it.
>
> Sub-based meson guns are _really_ nasty things to go up against. If you
> just shoot and scoot, it'll be next to impossible to target you, ever.
> You have the advantage of knowing the ground like, well, your own
> backyard.
>
> Hmm...methinks I'll have to get into the MG design rules and break out
> Andy's FFS2 spreadsheet...gotta design some variants on MG subs.
>
> On a mostly water world, I think those things would rule, period. You
> wouldn't want to even think about invading.

I wonder if it's possible to design a "ship" that can tunnel thru deep
rock layers fast enough to be of use?

Right now there's some tunneling gear that *melts* its way thru the
rocks. The "tunnelling head" is a block of metal and ceramic that's
above the melting point of most rocks. And the thing pushes the melted
rock aside to make a tunnel. But they are fairly slow.

Maybe something riding on CG & thrusters, with a *big* fusion gun on
the front? It won't care if the tunnel collapses behind it. 

If such is possible, then the meson gun would pretty much have to be a
spinal mount. 

For a different approach, use the gimmick several 1950s SF stories
used. At what TL does it become possible to generate fields that allow
a vehicle to "interpenetrate" solid matter?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:55:50 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics

I'm totally outclassed in this thread, but I wanted to share a few
random thoughts:


Colonization:  Because there are so many worlds with low pop. I would
assume that opportunities exist for educated people at the "start up"
locations.  New people ariving on world bring lots of baggage.  The
lower the local tech, the more you'll have to bring with you.  Free
Traders might be more amenable to these odd cargoes.

Raw materials: Highly processed, mined, milled and machined goods would
be cheaper to import for for a very long time.  Here in Maine our
biggest exports during colonization were wood and ice.  Seemingly common
items, but they filled out-going ships for many years.  Processed items
were the imports: tools, steel, cloth, leather, paper, glass, and lots
of other consumer and business use goods.  Later we exported ships,
fish, furs, furniture and more wood, but milled rather than raw.  To
this day, though, most consumer goods arive from away, simply because
our population could not support competitve manufacturing facilities.
The biggest business sector here is tourism.

Tastes: many newly colonized areas yield one or two special export
items.  The wealthy merchants profiting from the export operation will
import a wide variety of luxury goods, but only in small quantity.  The
Free Trader with marketing savvy has always been able to exploit that
fact IMTU.  The fact that a world is listed as Poor does not mean that a
few tons of luxury dainties would go unsold there.  (Come to think of
it, every Free Trader captain I've reffed had a large furry sidekick.
Hmm, why is that?)

You are welcome to hack apart everything that I have said here, but be
advised that I am probably not learned enough in this subject to realize
when I have been insulted ;-)


Acting V.Adm. C. Michael,
Sword Worlds Navy, Gram Fleet:
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:01:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Armor

In a message dated 4/16/99 4:00:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< I think this was mentioned recently, but I can't find the relevant post.
 Has anybody converted CT armor into GT terms?  Specifically, I want to know
 how much DR the pierced plate hull and the meson screens on the AHL provide
 (I'm trying to convert AHL into GT terms...)
 
 If no firm conversion exists, what do you think the DR on an AHL should be?
  On the Meson screens? >>

I think you would be better off converting HG into another system (MT,TNE 
FF&S) first, and then converting to GT. The problem is that CT only uses 
volume via displacement tons. The other systems all use volume and weight. 
Thus you can design a CT ship like my 25 kiloton battlerider that has maxed 
out armor, 6G man, and a big enough powerplant so that agility is 6 as well. 
This won't work in other systems because armor is so friggen' heavy that 
there is NO way you can squeeze in a power plant big enough that can move the 
"rock" at high G's. Having said that; I still like HG/TCS the best because 
it's so much easier to design ships than the other systems...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:21:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics

Howdy!

Ian's last post mentions:

[snip]
> You may see most economies being open only at the top end - food and other
> 'basic' goods are produced locally, while the world participates in trade
> for machine tools, computers, luxuries, starships and so on. This is
> analagous to the manorial economies of the 9th to 14th centuries - they
> produced most of the stuff locally, but wine, fine cloth, weapons and
> spices were imported, paid for with cash from exporting the small
> agricultural and industrial surplus to the closest town or annual fair.

Interesting observation...
> 
> Macro stuff :
> 
> The Third Imperium is clearly a free-trade capitalist universe, but many of
> it's worlds are definitly suffering from chronic crises of
> underdevelopment. There are just too many hi-pop, lo-tech worlds that
> should have progressed but didnt.
> 
[snip]

I stumbled across an interesting article:

Spotting the Losers: Seven Signs of Non-Competetive States, Ralph Peters
in Parameters, US Army War College Quarterly, Vol. XXXVIII, No. 1, Sprint 1998, 
p. 36-47

Peters discusses a way to assess how well a state -- or an entire civilization --
will perform in the world economy. He identifies seven factors - "deadly sins". 
The more that apply, the worse the prognosis.

The factors:
	Restrictions on the free flow of information
	The subjugation of women
	Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective
		failure
	The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social
		organization
	Domination by a restrictive religion
	A low valuation of education
	Low prestige assigned to work

The Clausewitzian trinity (state-people-military) is being replaced by a
new trinity: state-people-information. Historically, information equalled
power; this is the refuge of today's "flat-worlders". Restricting information
and denying knowledge is self-crippling. Rejecting information (at least the
"unsound" kind) practically assures that industrialization is unattainable.
Censorship hinders competitiveness. 

Embracing women as equal partners in life doubles the available labor pool.
The US economy now routinely operates at a wartime level of human-resource
committment on a routine basis. Suppressing half the population not only
removes them from productive positions but also wastes the energy spent 
doing so. Allow talent into a work force and you create jobs.

The cult of victimhood holds back entire continents. If you always blame the
CIA when the lights go out, you fail to address the real causes. Whining and
blustering about those "Damn Yanquis!" may make you feel good, but so will
a bottle of Southern Comfort...until the next morning.

When tribalism dominates, choices are not completely rational. You vote for 
Uncle Ali or hire Cousin Luis even if some stranger is the better candidate.
When blood ties rule, you cannot trust the contract, let alone the handshake.

If religion defines the "one true path", that path leads only downward. Either 
the religion must be sufficiently subdued and malleable (e.g. Japan) or be
able to openly coexist with varying forms (e.g. United States), opening the
door for science as an "alternative religion:".

Education is critical. Any society that starves education is a loser. Cultures
that do not see inherent value in education are losers. A culture that cannot
produce a single world-class university is not going to conquer the world in
any sphere.

When the goal of work is possession instead of achievement, leisure instead of
accomplishment, work, itself, is not highly valued. Generally, societies that do
not find work in and of itself "pleasing to God and requisite to Man," tend to
be highly corrupt. The goal becomes the attainment of wealth by any means. On the
other hand, workaholic cultures (e.g., North America above the Rio Grande, Japan, 
South Korea) can compensate for deficits such as lack of natural resources. 
States and cultures "win" just by getting up earlier and putting in eight honest
hours and a little overtime.

- ---
Back to my own words instead of quick and dirty summarizing mixed with quotes:

The author clearly thinks that the United States embodies, in large part, the
model for a successful economic power in the 21st century. He argues that 
you can make an initial assessment of the future potential of states by noting
how many of the seven sins can be attributed to that state. I see where this
could be used to help characterize systems IYTU with regard to their general
economic condition. For example, combine low prestige for work with a low
valuation of education and a dogmatic-religion society and you can expect 
corruption to be very likely and prevalent. Remember your "gifts" for the
nice officer...

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #460
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 461



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: drop tanks
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Jump Q's
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Drop tanks
Contact Darmine Draft 1.0 Part I -  The Time of the Ancients
Jump Q's
Re: Jump Q's
Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Traveller Economics
(WAY Off-topic) Failed Societies
Re: Planetary Defense
Re: World Conquest
Re: Technology Marches On...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:22:03 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: drop tanks

>Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:26:45 +0200 (METDST)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this should be true.
>>If you can blow them away, you can pull them inside.

>But if the tanks are rigid, there's not much point in that.

The wouldn't be.  They would collapse.

> They would take
>MORE interior space than ordinary interior tanks. And the rules specifically
>states that you can't use fuel from collapsible tanks directly in the jump
>drive (Don't ask me why, I don't know. But then, I don't know how a jump
>drive works either.)

That is something that is as dumb as drop tanks (I never mentioned
it before because I didn't care that much and besides, I knew that
you would be unfortable if I agreed with you :-).  However, combined
with drop tanks it has bigger consequences.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:27:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:41:18 -0700
>From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>

>How about we assume the TL is normal Traveller, unless otherwise stated as
>G:T.

Gee maybe we can argue about whether GT or "normal" Traveller should
be the default!

GT is the only Traveller currently in produs/q3op vr534$^ejj *&^rn
<end carrier>

(or maybe everyone can just indictate GTL or TTL...
This suggestion inserted by the Illuminati.
Remember, we don't exist!
FNORD
:-)


______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:30:01 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

> I am a Trav newbie(GURPS convert) and about to run my first trav
> campaign.  I'm not a person that does well converting the tech-speak
> that seems to be the norm for Traveller, into a "feel", if that makes
> any sense.

Welcome to the game and to the list!  :)

>
> What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  I've read
> that you can jump from standing still, or while in motion.  Is there a
> difference in the feel of the 2 types?

Usually there will be a good reason for a merchant to make a running jump -
it could be pressure to get the cargo to market just a bit ahead of the
other guy, or it could be a pirate/navy starship in hot pursuit.  IMTU (that
stands for 'In My Traveller Universe') I impose a negative DM on the
Astrogator and Pilot tasks for a running Jump, but my Jump rules are
decidedly non-standard.

Jumps in general cause a feeling of discomfort to the traveller.  Some claim
to get used to it, a few even claim to like it.  Most try and sleep through
it.

>
> Also, I've not found reference to whether of not an extended period of
> time is needed between coming out of jump, and jumping again...or is
> this just a fuel issue?

There is nothing canon that I am aware of regarding the issue, and I know of
many a game that was (ahem) 'compressed' by encouraging the players to use
multiple jumps to get where the focus of the game was.  But I also try and
encourage the PCs to get *out* of the ship between jumps - how long can you
stare at the same set of walls?  Additionally, IMTU, I have ruled that the
Jump Grid retains a charge after a jump that can take 2 to 7 (1d6 + 1) days
to fully dissipate.  (Although I also sell a Grid Damper to players who are
concerned about it - it discharges the grid twice as fast)  The building of
the charge is cumulative, i.e. consecutive jumps increase the charge and the
time for it to discharge, and it creates a DM on the misjump roll (+1 per
consecutive jump).

>
> Thanks in advance for your indulgence,
> jdk
>

No problem!

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.


E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:05:30 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>
> The Garden class satellites have been designed to allow the population of
> almost
> any system with at low cost (as low as 7,377Cr per person per year)
> Able to produce food irrespective of the local ecology and with sufficient
> manoeuvre
> to be able to exist even in asteroid fields, the Garden class only needs
> enough
> local shipping to be able to take the food where it is needed.
>
> To this end it can dock up to three 1kdt transports simultaneously.
>
> All of the airlocks have advanced decontamination facilities to reduce
> to spread of any unwanted organisims, either on board or off.
>
> The thiry five trained mission specialists are backed up by an impressive
> suite
> of laboratories and computer facilities - sufficient to overcome almost any
> agricultural disaster that you might be facing.
>
> Garden class satellites are available in 4 designs according to need:
>
>         Food Type       Food for
>         Algae Vats      135,000
>         Garden           67,500
>         Small Animals    27,000
>         Large Animals     9,000
>

I think you might be missing a key point to this method of life support.  It has to be a closed
system.  They don't just produce food out of nothing, they take your wastes and recycle it back into
food.  If you take the food out and don't return the biological waste products, the whole thing will
die after one cycle.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:53:26 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

<snip>

>>  The original poster was wrong wrt OTU; collapsible tankage cannot
>>supply Jump requirements per TCS, p. 13.
>
What's the difference between a collapsible tank and a drop tank? Sure, one
has rigid walls, but the other one's walls will collapse as the fuel is
drawn from them, like deflating a balloon.

>The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this
>should be true.  If you can blow them away, you can pull them
>inside.

Except that when you blow them away they don't count towards your mass when
determining jump range. TCS, p 13.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:18:21 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Contact Darmine Draft 1.0 Part I -  The Time of the Ancients

Contact Darmine Draft 1.0

An ongoing series of articles about the Darmine Minor Human Race

[A note on sources and canonicity.  Small portions of these articles draw directly on past
Traveller products, most notably the CT Alien Modules (especially #5), Adventure 12 and
the MegaTraveller Library data.  The existence of the Darmine Race is canon but most of
the details given here are not cannon.  Traveller is copyright by Far Future Enterprises and
Marc Miller]

Part I -  The Time of the Ancients

[Data from Part I  of this article is mostly  unknown to the population of the Third
Imperium, although large parts of it have been surmised by Darmine scientists.]

Approximately - 300,0000 the Ancients visited Terra.  They took groups of humans with
them to other worlds.  Most of these human races were not genetically altered for their new
homes.  Some of them, including the Darmine, were.

The Darmine homeworld is Ishag  1323 Zarushagar.  Second Survey Statistics for Ishag
follow:   Ishag         1323 B525966-A  N Hi In              515 Im G1 V

In the time of the Ancients Ishag had an atmosphere of standard density.  Ishag is somewhat
unusual in that it has a density of about 1.7 times the standard as do several other planets in
its solar system and other nearby solar systems.  This anomaly is apparently due to several
supernovas in the area resulting in the local interstellar media being somewhat denser than
normal.  This unusual phenomena attracted the attention Grandfather and had a base built on
Ishag to investigate this in about -302,000.  The Grandchild assigned to this task, 
Bryoiasvarv, brought a number of Droyne and hominids with him to assist in these
investigations.  The Ancient base on Ishag was not isolated from the environment but
interacted with it.  The Droyne were easily able to protect themselves from the unusually
high levels of heavy metals present in the soil and air using their technology.  However
they were not able to protect their hominid servants as easily and they began to die off.

This was a slight inconvenience to Bryoiasvarv, but his own interests were in stellar
phenomena, and he instructed the Droyne technicians to solve this problem. 

 The results were somewhat lacking in elegance.  When the Droyne technicians began their
work the hominid servants their population had already dropped from approximately 1,000
to less than 80 individuals.  The technicians determined that the primary cause of hominid
death was do to exposure to the planets heavy metals.  As they had been instructed to cure
the problem they choose to genetically alter the hominids rather than rely on technological
protection from that environment.  They altered their immune systems so that the immune
systems would take active measures to seek out any harmful or intruding substances and
remove them from the body.  The simplest means of disposing of these heavy metals was to
ensure that they were added to the hair and fingernails.  The altered hominids were
released onto Ishag and seemed to thrive in the atmosphere that had been killing them
before.  Several years went by and the droyne gradually realized that the hominids were no
longer breeding at all.  Upon investigation they discovered that the improved immune
systems of the females were attacking and eliminating almost all the male sperm and all of
the few blastocysts that were formed.  The technicians altered the protoDarmine immune
system so that it would no longer eliminate healthy embryos.  However the problem of the
female protoDarmine immune systems elimination of almost all of the sperm entering their
bodies proved impossible for the technicians [remember that Droyne are not very smart or
creative] to cure.  In the end the technicians made an end run around the problem by simply
drastically increasing the reproductive drives of the protoDarmine.

By the time the technicians had finished these tasks the Darmine population had dwindled
to less than 50 individuals.  Furthermore the genetic engineering performed by the droyne
included almost eliminating the introns in their DNA.  The Ancients also made a few other
minor alterations to the Darmine.  Because of the small, genetically undifferentiated,
population the Darmine suffered a number of mental quirks.  Furthermore since the immune
systems of Darmine women were designed to accept "healthy" embryos and healthy was
defined by the droyne technicians as "meeting the required parameters" the female Darmine
immune system was very likely to eliminate any mutated offspring.  Therefore the amount
of genetic drift possible in Darmine is quite limited.  Genetic testing by contemporary 
Darmine scientists indicate very few distinctions between modern Darmine and those of
300,000 years ago save for those caused by interbreeding with other human races, which is
rarely successful in Darmine.

The Darmine servants continued to thrive on Ishag.  Under the relatively benign control of
the droyne many Darmine left the vicinity of the Ancient base.  Over the next 1,000 years
the Darmine population increased to about 100,000 due primarily to the genetically
induced vast enthusiasm for this process.  When the Final War began Yaskodray instructed
Bryoiasvarv to leave Ishag.  Bryoiasvarv, who was still loyal to Yaskodray did so, taking
the droyne with him but leaving the Darmine on their new home.  With no Ancients of
Droyne on the planet the Final War never touched Ishag.  Therefore Ishag had more
remaining Ancient Artifacts then most other human minor race homeworlds.

Coming someday

Part II - The Time of the Integrum
Part III - The Time of the Vilani
Part IV -  The Time of Telor and the Darmine Reformation
Part IV - The Time of the Terrans
Part V - The Time of the Long Night
Part VI - The Time of the Third Imperium
Part VII - The Time of the New Era
Part VIII - Darmine Character Generation
Part IX - Roleplaying Darmine
Part X - Designers Notes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:50:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Jump Q's

> From: Adahma <adahma@starport.org>
 
> What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  

The old books at least say that you might feel a wrenching or nauseating
sensation.  In the case of a misjump, or if the jump bubble fails for a
moment, many will become violently sick.  

> I've read
> that you can jump from standing still, or while in motion.  Is there a
> difference in the feel of the 2 types?

I don't think so.
 
> Also, I've not found reference to whether of not an extended period of
> time is needed between coming out of jump, and jumping again...or is
> this just a fuel issue?

It's more a safety issue.  You need to check your jump drives to make
sure that they handled the transition back to normal space ok -- no
cracked zuchai crystals, lanthanum grid not breached, no microscopic
fractures of the engine block or pistons, that type of thing.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:53:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

> > What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  I've read

> Some people don't notice a thing.

"People", yes -- but don't forget that jump generally kills jgd-il-jagd,
unless they are heavily shielded.  This, and canonical references to
feeling something when you jump, suggests that the jump bubble is
permeable or something.

Also, jump space is supposed to be quite sickening to look at, probably
like Larry Niven's blind spot effect.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:31:42 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Keith Lost Supplements

Has anyone received their order or a status update?

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:37:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics

On 04/17/99 10:17:30 Ian wrote:
>Macro stuff :
>
>The Third Imperium is clearly a free-trade capitalist universe, but many of
>it's worlds are definitly suffering from chronic crises of
>underdevelopment. There are just too many hi-pop, lo-tech worlds that
>should have progressed but didnt.
>
>Now, the Imperium does appear to have capital markets (Hortalez et Cie will
>lend money to planets), and I'm perfectly prepared to believe they work.
>
>So, whats the answer ? Pocket Empires puts it down to high infrastructure
>costs (the downpayment on going up a TL) and cultural factors - if you have
>a population with a change-negative culture, then you are going to fail a
>bunch of attempts to remould society into a higher-tech model.
>
>Now, I think a theme in development is protectionist trade policies. They
>arent enough by themselves (eg Latin America), but every economy that I can
>think of industrialised behind a wall of import tariffs, and then went to
>Free Trade.

	The sidebar on pg.22 of Far Trader lends some support to this 
interpretation:

"One of the curiosities of the <B><I>GURPS: Traveller<B><I> universe is why 
the low tech worlds do not seem to catch up technologically over the 
centuries.  The GURPS tech level price discount rules used as they are in 
<B><I>GURPS: Traveller<B><I> offer us a potential explanation.  Engaging in 
interstellar trade with worlds of higher tech level <I>reduces<I> the 
economic incentive for a world to stretch its technological capabilities or 
even produce everything it is currently capable of because higher tech 
worlds will always be able to do it more cheaply.  The only thing the high 
tech worlds cannot compete with low tech worlds on is the production of low 
tech goods.  This retards the technological advancement of low-tech worlds.  
GM's are free to interpret this observation however they like.  Those who 
prefer a more "illuminated" background may decide this is all part of the 
Conspiracy, while others may believe that it is merely an unfortunate 
economic truth."

OT:  Many people seem to be of the impression that protectionism is 
"unamerican" and therefore to be frowned upon.  In fact, it was none other 
than Alexander Hamilton who suggested the idea of protecting America's 
"infant industries" from foreign trade until they were strong enough to 
compete. (IIRC it was in his report while Treasury Secretary "On 
Manufactures.")  His writings had more influence abroad than at home, and 
are said to have been one of the intellectual forces behind Germany's 19th 
century industrial policy.  Since Japan was in turn heavily influenced by 
German policies the impact of Hamilton's ideas could be said to have been 
felt well into this century.

>If we assume that the Imperial Elite disapproves of protectionism (the
>megacorps becasue it closes off export markets, the military becasue it's
>hard to blockade an autarky - an economy that does not import), then this
>becomes ahhh difficult as a development strategy - to put it bluntly,
>either the Imperium will send the IISS in to subtly knock over your
>government, or a megacorp will do it for them.

The megacorps have an obvious vested interest in keeping their oligopoly in 
technology intact, but it would be a misguided or short-sighted Imperium 
that discouraged well-considered economic development plans even if they 
included protectionism.  This is not to suggest that the Imperium or its 
representatives are neither misguided nor short-sighted, but rather to point 
out that keeping worlds low-tech backwaters is not in the Imperium's 
interest.  Not only are low-tech worlds less able to contribute to military 
production, but they are actually less dependent on trade than high-tech 
worlds (see my previous arguments in an earlier thread).  Since the more 
worlds need trade the more they need the Imperium, it is manifestly in the 
Imperium's interest to promote technological development of member worlds.  
The fact that we see little evidence of this is likely a result of the 
Imperium's "hands-off" philosophy toward individual worlds coupled with 
simple neglect.  We could imagine that development programs might have been 
one of the positive outcomes of Dulinor's proposed reforms.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:35:46 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: (WAY Off-topic) Failed Societies

My apologies for this VERY off-topic post,
but I really felt compelled to respond....

>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:21:53 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller Economics
>

<snippo>

>
>I stumbled across an interesting article:
>
>Spotting the Losers: Seven Signs of Non-Competetive States, Ralph Peters
>in Parameters, US Army War College Quarterly, Vol. XXXVIII, No. 1, Sprint
1998,
>p. 36-47
>
>Peters discusses a way to assess how well a state -- or
>an entire civilization -- will perform in the world economy.
>He identifies seven factors - "deadly sins".
>The more that apply, the worse the prognosis.
>


His factor's have a fairly good bearing with reality,
but - like all the work's of Man - falls somewhat
short of the mark.  See below....

>The factors:
> Restrictions on the free flow of information

AKA, the suppresson of truth.

> The subjugation of women

What is "subjugation of women" ?  If Peters is
assuming Islamic-style oppression, sure.
If he mean the existence of standard sex-roles, false:
that's just a temporary and necessary division of
labour to raise children.  I would hardly call
Japanese or the pre-1960's West a failure.

Moreover, matriarchal cultures are more a sign of
failure than success: observe their rarity in history (an implicit
sign of non-viability), and the poor operation of the
only matriarchal culture I'm familiar with, the inner-city.

> Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective
> failure

AKA, the destruction of justice.

> The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social
> organization

<Shrug> You have to trust someone, and when you are
poor, it's wiser to trust nearby relatives than strangers.
Of course, if you cannot trust strangers, your economy
simply cannot grow past a certain point.

> Domination by a restrictive religion

Atheistic ideology will do just as well: ask the Russians.

> A low valuation of education

...which implies a low value of abstract, systematic thought.

> Low prestige assigned to work


Shall we thank the Benedictine monks, or the Calvinist's,
for the high prestige of work in the West?

>
>The Clausewitzian trinity (state-people-military) is being replaced by a
>new trinity: state-people-information. Historically, information equalled
>power; this is the refuge of today's "flat-worlders". Restricting
>information and denying knowledge is self-crippling. Rejecting
>information (at least the "unsound" kind) practically assures that
>industrialization is unattainable.  Censorship hinders competitiveness.

The Soviet Union industrialized quite nicely under the most oppressive
regime in history.  If Peter's is talking about participation in the
current Information Economy, then he is correct: censorship
is merely impossible.

>
>Embracing women as equal partners in life doubles the available labor pool.
>The US economy now routinely operates at a wartime level of human-resource
>committment on a routine basis. Suppressing half the population not only
>removes them from productive positions but also wastes the energy spent
>doing so. Allow talent into a work force and you create jobs.

Heh.  "Suppressing half the population not only removes them from productive
positions...." There are a large number of women who would rightfully
resent the implication that they were "oppressed" into starting
families, or that raising children is not a productive activity.

If a women believes that obtaining material wealth now is more
important than raising a family, that is her choice to make, but
please don't claim that there is no cost to society in her
deciding to do so.  As an example, consider Europe in, say, 2030....

>
>The cult of victimhood holds back entire continents. If you always
>blame the CIA when the lights go out, you fail to address the real
>causes. Whining and
>blustering about those "Damn Yanquis!" may make you feel good, but so will
>a bottle of Southern Comfort...until the next morning.

This particular artifact of Modernity is dying fast, from South America
to Africa to Harlem, NYC.  It's stronger than ever in the universities,
however.

>When tribalism dominates, choices are not completely rational. You
>vote for Uncle Ali or hire Cousin Luis even if some stranger is the better
>candidate. When blood ties rule, you cannot trust the contract, let alone
the
>handshake.

To the people in that situation, tribalism is completely rational.  Do you
trust  Uncle Ali, who you have known since the age of five? Or some
wealthy stranger, who you can't hold responsible for his actions?

Moreover, Uncle Ali is part of your culture: communication is a breeze,
and you are both under the same authority - the local village headman, for
example.  If the stranger cheats you and dissapears, how do you
get justice?  You DON'T, that's how.

Yes, this situation can change, but only after the local's are satisfied
that they and the stranger are on a level playing field, not before.

>If religion defines the "one true path", that path leads only downward.

AKA "All religions which claim to be true must fail."  Now, if that
isn't a power grab in the name of the current Tolerance ideology,
I don't know what is.

All religions and ideolgies MUST define the One True Path.  For
example, the Tolerance crew must and will insist that everyone
must be Tolerant: no exceptions.  Tolerance is the One True Path.

>Either the religion must be sufficiently subdued and malleable (e.g. Japan)
>or be able to openly coexist with varying forms (e.g. United States),
>opening the door for science as an "alternative religion:".

And of course, Science will ascend to it's rightful place as the only way
to truth there is, crushing those evil, supersitious Christian's under
it's unstoppable drive to power.  As humanity walks under the light of
Reason, the Scientific State will usher in a utopia of peace and prosperity,
elevating all sophisticated, intelligent people to a higher state of
Evolution.

Didn't we actually see this movie already?

Anyways, Science as Religion has become pretty much a washout
in this century: it isn't really bright to worship hammers, and the
scientific method is just that: one of many useful tool's for the intellect,
nothing more.

<Big ol' snippo>


>- ---
>Back to my own words instead of quick and dirty summarizing
>mixed with quotes:
>
>The author clearly thinks that the United States embodies, in large part,
>the model for a successful economic power in the 21st century.

Well, of course.  The British officer in the Punjab thought that his Empire
would grow yet stronger and stronger, the Romans actually thought
that Rome would rule eternally, etc.

ALL major, dominant societies ALWAYS think that they are The Final Society.

>He argues that you can make an initial assessment of the future
>potential of states by noting how many of the seven sins can be
>attributed to that state.
>I see where this could be used to help characterize systems IYTU with
>regard to their general economic condition. For example, combine low
>prestige for work with a low valuation of education and a
>dogmatic-religion society and you can expect corruption to be very
>likely and prevalent. Remember your "gifts" for the nice officer...

This particular example fail's the reality check.   Observe the Clinton
Adminstration: high prestige for work, high valuation of education, a
proper respect for Tolerance and pervasive corruption.   And assuming
that every nation get's the government it deserves....

>
>yours,
>Michael

Well, of the seven point's listed in the post, I agreed with
four,  and had conditional agreement of three, mainly
mainly due to definition's of terms: religion/ideology,
subjugation/sex-roles, and the usefullness of the clan.

Not so bad, for a work of the 1990's.  I'm sure that
a University student of 2050 will burst into laughter
at  the current academic culture, but would his idea's
be any better?  We'll see....


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:05:04 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense

>If a Black Globe generator small enough to fit on a starship (albeit, a
>capital warship) can be developed at TL 15, when are they first introduced
>into Planetary Defense?  I mean, if it takes an enclosure the size of a
>small building, and requires a power plant capable of running a small city,
>but it protects your metropolotin areas (or your planetary defense sites),
>wouldn't it be deployed?
>
>Jerry Pournelle does a really good job of describing how the shapes of
>cities are affected by the physics of his 'Langston Field' - a very similar
>device.
>
>What happens if you run a Black Globe in an atmosphere?

Why do I have a feeling that if you took a black globe generator capable of
shielding a city, and put in and a huge contra-grav generator in the middle
of that city and flipped them both on, you'd have a airbourne city?

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:19:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In mail you write:

>>On a mostly water world, I think those things would rule, period. You
>>wouldn't want to even think about invading.
>
> Depends on how hard integrated use of densitometers and EMS sensors makes it 
> to find ships.  It might be too difficult past TL-12, which means those 
> things will die fast.  EM Masking and all that in subs... might as well put 
> a 
> maneuver drive (would T-plates and/or HEPlaR work underwater?)... and you're 
> starting to have what looks like a starship (or maybe spacecraft) that 
> operates underwater... Then of course, we end up w/ the aircraft/space 
> fighter debate that resolves with the only effective difference the insignia 
> on the crew uniforms...

Wet navy ships don't need huge fuel tanks. Just small ones to enable
the ship to keep running while repairs are made to their high speed
fuel purifiers. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:16:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On...

In mail you write:

> That's right, folks. A *wrist* phone. Can you say
> "Dick Tracy"?

Well, true enough, he *did* have such. But they became outdated in the
late 50s or early 60s when he switched from wrist radios to wrist TVs.
So don't crow *too* loudly until you can point to a wrist videophone.

BTW, there's some fun alternate tech for your Traveller campaign.
Magnetic propulsion (The Atomic Space Coupe, and the like). 

Yes, I *did* start reading the comics about the time Dick Tracy and
friends went to the moon. Why do you ask? :-)

> (We've *GOT* to get somebody working on jumpdrives!!)

What makes you think they aren't?

More seriously, jump drives can't be "worked on" until we have research
facilities beyond the 100 diameter limit.

I want somebody to restart the DC-Y work. And go on to build the DC
Clipper. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #461
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 462



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Subs and Sensors
Re: World Conquest
Re: Jump space - some thoughts
Re: Economics of drop tanks 
Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma 
Comments: Authenticated sender is < >
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Reavers' Deep...
GRAN FENWICK-class IISS Scout Cruiser (FF&S2)
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade
Any FF&S2 Ship Design Requests?
Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...
Surfcae based Black Globes
Contact Darmine Part II -  The Time of the Integrum Draft 1.0
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)
Re: Jump Q's
Re: New solar system discovered/New superheavy element created
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Jet planes
Re: Traveller Economics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 23:23:48 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Subs and Sensors

On 04/15/99 at 01:17 PM,  Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net> said:

>If a sub is doing 40 knots, it's because it's already 
>being shot at. Some planets may well have 7500 ton 
>whaleoids.

You know the smart thing to do would be to power the meson cannon on
the subs externally.  Plant a large number of "charging stations"
on the sea floor all connected to deeply buried and widely dispersed
power plants.  The subs are battery powered, stealthed, and very hard
to detect.  It would dock with a station download targetting data,
position the ship aimming at the target and fire.  Then it is free
to undock and move to its next firing station.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:34:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: World Conquest

In mail you write:

>> From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>> (a) Slow but sure.
>>  a1. Jump insystem. Fly to the Gas Giant, and establish space supremecy 
>>      over it. Call in the rest of the fleet.
>>  a2. Move to the mainworld. Defeat anything else in space.
>>  a3. Reduce the planetary defences (Deep mesons et al). This may take
>>      some general destruction of surface support facilities like 
>>      sensors.
>>  a4. Beat off any fleets that are sent in the meantime.
>
> Small technical problem with a1. "The Gas Giant." Most systems have 
> more than one. The solar system has four. If a system is being 
> attacked, any decent strategist would figure out that the attackers 
> had occupied the "usual" one, so reinforcements might simply come and 
> secure another one... taking into account orbits, it's improbable 
> that a single gas giant would *always* be the closest one to the 
> mainworld, so it is even unclear if there is always a single gas 
> giant presenting an strategical advantage to take over a world.

It's worse than that. Figure out transit times from one of the gas
giants to the mainworld. For example, at closest approach, it's 4.2 AU
from Jupiter to Terra. At 1 g, if you boost until halfway, flip, and
decelerate the rest of the way (so you arrive more or less at rest with
respect to Terra, it takes almost 6 *days*. At 2 g, a bit over 4 days.
3.4 days at 3g, 2.9 days at 4 g, 2.6 at 5g, 2.4 days at 6g.

During this period your fleet is *painfully* visible. And your course
is very predictable. Enough so that the defenders are likely going to
risk firing mass driver projectiles as "kinetic kill" ordinance in your
path. And firing missiles to act as mines. At *some* point, you'll
encounter these. But when? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 23:38:41 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Jump space - some thoughts

On 04/15/99 at 07:02 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

>	The only problem I have with this "jump masking" idea is this ...
>WHEN does the object have to be in the way? Remember, astronomical
>objects MOVE at astronomical speeds. So that gas giant in the outer
>system of your destination may not be on that straight line *now* ...
>but maybe it will be at some time between now and now+7 days. Or
>maybe it is now, but won't be now+7 days. Ditto for any objects
>between systems.

You obviously have to make up your mind how it works and stay consistent.

IMTU, the jump is instantaneous, but one week wait is required
before the ship reenters normal space.  So, for me, the important
thing is where are the objects at the time of jump.  If an object's
location at that instant "masks" the target the ship will stop at
the intervening object, but no one aboard will know that until the
ship emerges a week later.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:14:01 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 

> Gary, did you check out my jump-6 Decafreighter that uses drop tanks ?

Nope.  Is it on the web somewhere?  What design system?  

What's tipped the scales in this argument, for me, is that all of the people 
plugging and chugging numbers have shown it's not the end of interstellar 
economics, as we know it, even w/o a massive PR war, disaster, sabotage, etc, 
which would really reign them in for awhile.  While they should one day 
become the norm for interstellar travel, there is no reason it *has to* take 
place in an amount of time that will significantly impose its effects on 
anyones TU.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:14:02 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: The "Save the troops or the carrier" dilemma 

> > Though I think that particular example from FFW may be straining common
> 
> The reason those TL 15 elite grav armored units are tough is that
> they're facing Sword World troops at TL 10-12, and the combat results
> table shifts three, four, or five columns in favor of the higher tech
> level.  That is, they don't have to face meson fire.  They're less tough
> against TL 14 Zhodani Consular Guard brigades.

It's the particulars of the column shifting that I find dubious.  Meson guns 
come in at TL-11.  Even without them, orbital bombardment should be nasty.  
Command of space is priceless.  You can bombard w/ lasers etc from far 
ranges.  Can always drop rocks, too.  Forget bout the near c kind...  see 
"Footfall."  YMMV.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 22:47:53 EST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Comments: Authenticated sender is < >

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:59:33 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999 5:05
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated


>
>that reminds me. Has anyone ever come up with rules for refurbish/refitting
>these 40 year old ships back into new ships as far as performance, etc.
goes?
>How much would this cost, and how long would it take? This would be a good
>goal for the PC's (save up for this work...) that own a 40 year old
>clunker...Another nugget could be a ship about to lose its' spaceworthiness
>certificate due to age and wear, and the PC's attempts to avoid this...
>

This came up in one of my old campaigns, the PC's wanted to refit to the
stage that the ship performed like it was new and insisted I come up with a
formula on the spot.  We agreed that the annual maint. cost multiplied by
every 10-year age block or part thereof plus 10% would be assumed to be a
decent refit/overhaul.  Mind you, I was never a gearhead like some on this
list may be, so it's open to debate, but back then it was a quick fix for a
on off situation that worked.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:47:02 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Reavers' Deep...

I'm here looking at
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/ReaversCT/ReaversCT.html and I'm wondering
if it was an official GDW generated system, or a licensed system (FASA,
GameLords, etc.) generated system, or a club/group generated system, or
generated by an individual for their own campaign?  Can anyone tell me?

I find some of the names interesting and I'm simply curious, no more, no
less :^)

The sight is put together well and I was always interested in seeing other
systems when I was running my campaigns and always wanted (I don't know why)
a complete set!  An idiosyncrasy of mine at the time I guess.

Also, on several of the world stats, there are entries like the one below,
is the number a typo (I'm assuming it is, but with some of the rule books
and the fact there are a few of them, I can't be sure... I have been out of
the loop for a while you know ;^)

*****  *****
Uralggash Subsector
ca. 1119
  Name   Hex  UWP             B   Trade             TPPG   Alg    Stellar
Mecca   3129 B858768-8        Ag O:3130    813       Oc     M0 V

*****  *****

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:49:12 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: GRAN FENWICK-class IISS Scout Cruiser (FF&S2)

Here is the current, slightly updated, version of AuricTech Shipyard's
GRAN FENWICK class IISS Scout Cruiser (I also updated the spreadsheet on
my Web site, and added this description, plus designer's notes, in RTF):

Gran Fenwick-class Imperial Light Cruiser

Tons: 25000 std (SL Wedge Hypersonic) 
Dimensions: 220.3 m x 151.3 m x 63 m
Volume: 350000 m3
Cargo: 500 std (5 hatches, Hdl: 5 x 40 t) 
Mass (L/C): 259650 t/ 240090 t 
Maintenance Points: 8079
Passengers High/Med: 0/0 
Crew: 180/323 
Frozen Watch: 26
Cost: 69,829.665 MCr 
Tech Level: 15
Size: 10 


Electronics
Controls: Holographic, High automation. 5xFibComp (CM: 0.2 CP: 5.0).
Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). Bridge.
Communications: 4 x Directional Radio Rec (10,000 AU / 0.02 MW). 4 x
Radio (1,000AU, 0.2MW). 8xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (15 [500 mkm], 5 MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5 mkm], LP, 50 MW).
3xLIDAR (15 [2mkm], 2.5 MW).
Survey/Science: 1xDensitometer (9 [500 km] Sci). 1xNeutrino (9 [500 km],
Sci, 20 MW).
ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000AU, 0.4 MW). 1 x Area. Jammer (11, 97.5 MW).
1xDecp. Jammer (13, 19.5 MW).  1xPas. Jammer (16, 9.75 MW).
Signatures: Vis: -1, IR: -0.5 (-0.5 at 31078 MW, -0.5 at 4160 MW), Act:
- -1, Neu: 0, Grav: 2


Performance 
5 Jump (2500 std/pc fuel) 
4.5 / 4.9 Maneuver (Thruster: 29173 MW)
0 / 0 Contra-grav
4698 kph/4797 kph Atmosphere Maximum 
3524 kph / 3598 kph Atmosphere Cruise 
3 Power (Fusion: 41600 MW,1yr) 
0 Battery 
12798.6 Fuel (Scoop:6 /Purif: 58 hrs, 93 MW) 
390/10/40/100 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low
Berth) 
20800 Life Sup. (Type:Extended,Good Food/Storage) 
4 G-Comp 
48 Sandcasters (AV:79/Cans:30)
16 Damper Turrets (5 MW /Rng: 50000 km) 
300 Damper Screen (30 MW) 
452 Meson Screen (127.69 MW) 
60 [294] Armor, 49 Structure 


Weapons (300,000km range bands) 
1 x 11.14k-Mj Spinal PA (+4) 2/13-13-13-13 [1,200/750-750-750-750] 200
rof
4 x 568-Mj Laser Bay (+6) 1/6-6-6-6 [2,100/60-60-60-60] 100 rof 
40 x 61-Mj Laser Turret [4 / ea bty] [byt rating: (+6) 1/6-2-2-2
[4,400/20-20-20-20] 400 rof (PD rof: 800)]
12 x Missile Bay Auto 4/4 (Mag:76 /MFD:500,000km) 
     w/80 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6.0G12 1000AU 
 Features
250 x Airlock 
0 x Decontamination Airlock 
1 x Docking Umbilical 
2 x Electronic Shop (6 std ea.) 
5 x Machine Shop (10 std ea.) 
4 x Laboratory (8 std ea)
4 x Sickbay (8 std ea.) 
1 x Ship's locker (15 std ea.) 
4 x Prisoner Capacity (2 Medium, 2 High Security) 
20 x Armory (.89 std ea.) 
6 x Gym (2.5std ea.)
2 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 60 each) 
10 x Full Galley (Cap: 40 each) 
2 x Crew Lounge (50 std ea.)
1 x Combat Information Center (50 std ea.) 

Small Craft
2 x MinHgr (30 std, 2 hatches) 
     Ships boats 
6 x MinHgr (50 std, 6 hatches) 
     Modular cutters 

Backups 
Drives: None 
Screens: 1 x Meson Screen (PV:143). 1 x Damper Screen (PV:160). 
Communications: None 
Sensors: 1 x PEMS (14 [50mkm]). 1 x AEMS (12 [1.6mkm]).
ECM: None 
Power & Fuel: Fusion (200 MW).  Purification Plant (58 hr). 

Crew Details 6 x Maneuver. 1 x Electronic. 122 x Engineering. 7 x
Maintenance. 35 x Gunnery. 18 x Screen. 36 x Flight. 
40 x Troops. 44 x Command. 10 x Stewards. 4 x Medical.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:57:56 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade

Eris reddoch wrote:

> Ok, and more to the point for Traveller trade, Jim and Carlos do you
> want to take us through supply and demand curves, with a nice long
> discussion of elasticity? <gd&r>

Talk about 'science-fiction.'   ;-)

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:00:56 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Any FF&S2 Ship Design Requests?

So far, on the AuricTech Shipyards section of my Web site, I have the
following designs (all built using the Akins FF&S2 spreadsheet, version
3.2):

TUSCALOOSA-class Heavy Cruiser (TL-15, 70 Kdt, J4, 6G, NPAW)
ST. LOUIS-class Light Cruiser (TL-13, 60 Kdt, J4, 4G, NPAW)
BROOKLYN-class Light Cruiser (as ST. LOUIS, with meson gun vice NPAW)
REUBEN TUCKER-class Platoon Transport (TL-13, 800 dt, J4, 3.5G)
ELECTRA II yacht (TL-13, 1000 dt, J4, 3G)
ELECTRA III yacht (TL-15, 1000 dt, J4, 4G)
GRAN FENWICK-class IISS Scout Cruiser (TL-15, 25 Kdt, J5, 4.5G, NPAW)

Are there any types of ships that y'all would like to see me tackle
next?  After all, here at AuricTech, "the customer plots the jump."

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:29:47 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Wall <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999 5:48
Subject: Reavers' Deep...


>
>
>Also, on several of the world stats, there are entries like the one below,
>is the number a typo (I'm assuming it is, but with some of the rule books
>and the fact there are a few of them, I can't be sure... I have been out of
>the loop for a while you know ;^)
>
>*****  *****
>Uralggash Subsector
>ca. 1119
>  Name   Hex  UWP             B   Trade             TPPG   Alg    Stellar
>Mecca   3129 B858768-8        Ag O:3130    813       Oc     M0 V
>
>*****  *****
>

Sorry, the numbers I refer to are the ones under the Trade heading: Ag
O:3130.

- --  The Roc
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:35:43 +0100
From: "Paul James" <paul@turing.tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Surfcae based Black Globes

As I understand the Black Globe technology a Black Globe generates a
spherical forcefield which cuts off everything (including gravity). This
means you _can't_ have the power source outside the actual globe. Also once
the globe is turned on a chunk of the planet will end up drifting off. For
an example check out the Skylark Of Space by E E Doc Smith. To actually use
a Black Globe you'd need to generate a hemispherical field or a spherical
field which allows gravity to come through. Either way it would be a higher
tech level than a standard Black Globe.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:31:50 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Contact Darmine Part II -  The Time of the Integrum Draft 1.0

Contact Darmine Part II -  The Time of the Integrum Draft 1.0

An ongoing series of articles about the Darmine Minor Human Race

[A note on sources and canonicity.  Small portions of these
articles draw directly on past Traveller products, most notably
the CT Alien Modules (especially #5), Adventure 12 and the
MegaTraveller Library data.  The existence of the Darmine Race
is canon but most of the details given here are not cannon.
 Traveller is copyright by Far Future Enterprises and Marc Miller]

The population of Ishag at the time of the Ancients departure was about
100,000 individuals at TL 0 [All Tech levels in these articles are 
Traveller Tech levels, not GURPS Tech Levels.] Over the next 150,000
years the population grew to 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 and Tech Level
1, including an alphabet was created.  Ishag is, save for its heavy
metaltaints which the Darmine were engineered to withstand, a mild
planet with little climatological or animal threats.  During this period
Darmine science advanced quite slowly but its spiritual and cultural
traditions were quite advanced.

Due to Ancient genetic alteration and the forerunner effect from its
small population base the Darmine were quite prone to developing
spontaneous  psionic potential without training, of which Precognition
was most common, especially in women.  This ability to see the future
combined with use of Ancient artifacts and the numerological obsessive
compulsions common in the Darmine resulted in a population that was
deeply spiritual and which was heavily constrained by massive amount of
tradition and taboos.  Circa -30,0000 the Darmine had been reached early
Tech Level 2 via a steady, but very slow process, and the Darmine had
completely explored their world.  Up until this point their had been
little or no long range communication on Ishag save for incidental
communication of wanderers and that of telepaths.  In about -27,000 the
printing press was invented.  The primary use of the press was in
publishing scripture.  As the Darmine came to learn that their neighbors
had different beliefs then they did a growing spirit of intolerance and
evangelicalism swept the planet.  By -25,000 the Darmine discovered
war.  In the next 1,000 years their culture climbed from Tech level 2,
Tech level 1 in Military fields up to TL 6 and planetary  population had
climbed to over 400,000.  In addition the Darmine had found and learned
how to use a significant number of Ancient Artifacts, including psionic
disintegrators.

Circa -23,500  the Darmine First and Second Thermonuclear Wars 
brought their population back below 500,000, their TL back to 0, and the 
apparent destruction of all known Ancient weapons. The war resulted in a
 technophobic reaction in a significant minority of all Darmine.  Even
today  about 5% of all Darmine shun modern technology. However the
Darmine  had an written tradition 125 thousand  years old at his point. 
With the aid  of the knowledge in these books  Darmine society began its
slow technological recovery and had regained  late TL 4 by  -22,500. 
However  the Darmine rate of population growth is somewhat slower than
that of other human races and their planetary  population was still less
than 10,000,000. The nuclear wars eliminated all formal Darmine
knowledge of Psionics. Some Darmine still spontaneously manifested
Psionic powers, especially Precognition.  [Referees Modern Darmine will
spontaneously  develop Precognition is 4d6 all turn up sixes and other
psionic powers  if 5d6 all turn up sixes in women, in men one additional
d6 turning up 6 is required.]

Darmine society continued to progress technologically at a very slow
rate and by -6,000 Darmine technology had reached early Tech Level 8 
although military technology was only tech level 5, perhaps do to
revulsion at what war had done to Ishag.  It was at this point that the
Vilani first contacted the Darmine, and vice versa.

Elements of the Darmin minor race not copyright Far Future Enterprises
and Marc Miller are copyright 1999 by Peter Newman.  Game use is herby
granted.  Do not publish or make available this information without my
written permission, please  pnewman@alaska.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:19:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

 "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>GT is the only Traveller currently in produs/q3op vr534$^ejj *&^rn
><end carrier>

<click>
<retransmit>

>GT is the only Traveller ****Rule set****  currently in produs/q3op
>vr534$^ejj *&^rn
><end carrier>

Material for CT/MT/TNE and T4 (as well as GT) may be found in the BITS 101
series.

Dom (who will never assume GTL as standard cos he's a  CMT4 kind of guy...)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:08:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shadow of the Torturer (fwd)

In mail you write:

> Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
>> You mean like my 100% hand-waved katana that has a DU (dupleted uranium)
>> core and layered alloy blade?  You have to be WEARING battledress to wield
>> the bloody thing :)  Nice can-opener while the FGMP is re-charging.
>
> Ok.  Fine for Battledress.  But I meant more realistic things.
> A rapier that will scratch a starship hull and will never dull.
> A high-power electric stun spear.
> Ceramic plate mail?
> Super alloy light weight chain mail?

Sorry, but it has been determined by experiment that light-weight chain
mail is *not* a good idea. Someone in the SCA made some out of aluminum
instead of steel. Since SCA weapons don't have *real* cutting edges,
the softness of the metal didn't matter. But he discovered that the
*mass* of the chain is part of the protection factor. By *being*
massive, it helps absorb the impact. 

On the other hand, something like that might be ok as an "overshirt" to
wear over your Kevlar. As numerous people have learned the hard way,
kevlar is not knife proof!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:11:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

In mail you write:

> For the record, I am looking for a NON-technical answer here... :P
>
> I am a Trav newbie(GURPS convert) and about to run my first trav
> campaign.  I'm not a person that does well converting the tech-speak
> that seems to be the norm for Traveller, into a "feel", if that makes
> any sense.
>
> What does one experience when entering and leaving jump?  I've read
> that you can jump from standing still, or while in motion.  Is there a
> difference in the feel of the 2 types?

There's nothing "official" about this. If you want to, you can throw in
something about a strange twisting sensation or some such.

> Also, I've not found reference to whether of not an extended period of
> time is needed between coming out of jump, and jumping again...or is
> this just a fuel issue?

Well, you *do* have to determine where you *are*. You might have
misjumped, in which case this might take a while. Or you could be in
the right system but pretty far from your intended exit point. 

So first priority upon exiting jump is getting an astrogational fix.
This shouldn't take long if the system is very developed. You can
basicly get a fix on nav beacons. If you misjumped, or the system
doesn't have beacons, it could take anywhere from an hour to a day.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:52:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: New solar system discovered/New superheavy element created

In mail you write:

> ObTrav:  Hi-TL sensors should easily be able to detect
> Neptune-sized planets or larger in systems not
> explored before. This should make exploration fairly
> easy in regards to *knowing* the system a scout/military
> vessel is jumping into has a fuel source. Lower TL 
> merchants, however, may be taking a chance.

Actually, even *current* TL sensors could spot planets easily. The
trick is that you have to be in *space* with them. Easy for a Traveller
merchant. Not so easy for us.

We've been over this before and a decent space-based observatory could
plot most planets from a sector or more away. Ship sensors can probably
plot GGs from more than 6 parsecs. And "normal" planets are possible.

Of course the *real* problem is that the way *most* of these planets
are being discovered are by comparing observations made over a period
of *years*. Direct observation is a *lot* trickier and tends to require
gear that won't *fit* on a small ship.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:13:48 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

I've emailed Paul, but haven't heard back.  I know he was waiting to get covers back, 
but thought that he was looking for sometime in April to ship them.

> Has anyone received their order or a status update?
> 
> Alan
> 


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:04:54 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jet planes

In einer eMail vom 15.04.1999  19:20:43, schreiben Sie:

<< Interesting -- thanks.  Bayerische Flegzeugwerke means Bavarian Airplane
 Works -- like BMW stands for Bayerische Motorwerke.  I wonder if there's
 a relationship (via the Marshall plan)?
  >>
No. Definitely not. There are just located in the same Federal State...
(Spinward specialties has nothing to do with Spinward lines, YKWIM ?) 
But interestingly Messerschmitt is owned by Daimler-Benz ...

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:16:20 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics

>Quick sociological note ... generally speaking, American universities have
>a very low tolerance for anything other than neoclassical economics.
>European and British universities tend to be a lot more open to other
>flavours.

Is this "neoclassical" like "neoconservative"?  (Ie. outward similarity,
but large philosophical differences.)

>Micro Stuff :
>
>There are plenty of goods to anchor long-distance trade around.
>
>Goods traded a long distance will be high value relative to volume ('value
>dense') and either unique in source or subject to efficiencies of scale.

Like Spanish urine (imported to Rome)?

Just a reminder that value is a relative thing...


>Macro stuff :
>
>The Third Imperium is clearly a free-trade capitalist universe, but many of
>it's worlds are definitly suffering from chronic crises of
>underdevelopment. There are just too many hi-pop, lo-tech worlds that
>should have progressed but didnt.
[snip]
>Now, I think a theme in development is protectionist trade policies. They
>arent enough by themselves (eg Latin America), but every economy that I can
>think of industrialised behind a wall of import tariffs, and then went to
>Free Trade.
>
>If we assume that the Imperial Elite disapproves of protectionism (the
>megacorps becasue it closes off export markets, the military becasue it's
>hard to blockade an autarky - an economy that does not import), then this
>becomes ahhh difficult as a development strategy - to put it bluntly,
>either the Imperium will send the IISS in to subtly knock over your
>government, or a megacorp will do it for them.

So, roughly speaking, because the established worlds can produce the stuff
for less than you can tool up to produce it, your infant manufacturing
sector never really gets going.

Sounds workable to me.  Also sounds close enough to GATT and NAFTA to keep
my players happy.  (Mind you, as left-wing teenagers, this crowd's take on
economics is rather odd anyway!)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #462
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 463



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re:Navy Blood
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Anti-BD weapon for GT
PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)
Re: Traveller Economics
1) Red Hot Posters? 2) That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches
Re: Jump Q's
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: World Conquest
Re: Modifying starships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:26:16 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

>>Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:41:18 -0700
>>From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
>
>>How about we assume the TL is normal Traveller, unless otherwise stated as
>>G:T.
>
>Gee maybe we can argue about whether GT or "normal" Traveller should
>be the default!
>
>GT is the only Traveller currently in produs/q3op vr534$^ejj *&^rn
><end carrier>
>
>(or maybe everyone can just indictate GTL or TTL...

The word "normal" might be a bit provocative, but G:T _is_ the new kid on
the block. Four versions of Traveller use "TL" to mean the same thing, G:T
is the only version that's different.

I use GTL for GURPS Tech Level, TL for Traveller tech level. Saves having
to change 20+ years of material.

To a newcomer this probably won't matter as much, except that they might
get confused when checking the archives.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:06:13 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

>Has anyone received their order or a status update?
>
>Alan

Not me.  Last I heard was a month or so ago. Paul said he was working 2-3
hours a day on them. Didn't say what he was doing (but then I didn't ask
either).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:07:51 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: Re:Navy Blood

Sorry I took so long to respond, Ian - I can hardly post
except over the weekends (long, long commute...)

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>Subject: Re: Campaign : Navy Blood
>>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>>Subject: Campaign: Navy
Blood>
>>Campaign: Navy Blood>An abstract Merchant adventure>

>Just one quick comment. Wow.

Good thing you can't see me blushing over the Internet.

>Get a copy of G:T Far Trader, and talk to Loren about working this up into
>a Merchant Venturer adventure.

Well, I now have a copy of GT: Far Trader, and can get other books
fairly soon (at the end of the month).  I am hoping that I can get this
posted
as-is on Freelance Traveller, and perhaps my Mercenary adventure
last October as well.

As for Loren... well, my best bet is to publish it in Pyramid.  I ain't a
subscriber,
but I do have my $15 US money order ready.  As this is a merchant adventure,
it really should have some money number's on it, to save the Referee some
hassle.

>>>**********************>
>>     The PC's are part of a band of 5-10 old friends and
>>acquaintances.  Ex-Navy types, they are trying to make a second
>>career out of a microniche in the liner trade.  Specifically, they are
>>aware of vast number of Navy families who are scattered
>>across the sector, greatly separated from their serving men.  Typically,
>>when possible the Imperial Navy will give them vouchers to travel
>>to their husband's posting.

>Are these transferable ? If they are Middle Passage vouchers, then perhaps
>there might be interest in trading them in for steerage for others ... you
>could take the single yourself in a stateroom, or take your wife and kid in
>a shared bunk, plus a couple of thousand in cash.

>The orginal vouchers could be bundled up, and offered to colonies who need
>a Middle Passage ticket for that expensive contractor, in exchange for a
>small equity or countertrade consideration.

Yeah, they are middle-class vouchers.  Your idea look's interesting, and
- - if I remember - will be added in my submission to Pyramid (if I ever get
there...)

>>>  - Upon occasion, the ship will be drafted to withdraw
>>Navy and Noble families from certain hostile regions.
>>The PC's might get the Navy to provide a bit of covering
>>fire if needed, but most of the time they will be
>>expected to handle the situation themselves.
>This will be rare event.

>Is this set pre-FFW ?

Actually, it's set just post-FFW in 1112. (Fifth Frontier War: 1107 - 1110).
If your player's want even more firefight's, cutting-edge action,
and hair's breath escapes, set it in 1107 instead.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:45:14 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

I believe they won't be ready till the summer....Paul is way behind...
Mike mckeown



>From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>To: Traveller Digest <traveller-digest@mpgn.com>
>Subject: Keith Lost Supplements
>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:31:42 -0400
>
>Has anyone received their order or a status update?
>
>Alan
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:06:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Anti-BD weapon for GT

Gridlore Technologies presents the 20mm Individual Anti-Armor Weapon

Malf      Type  Damage   SS  Acc  1/2D   Max   Wt  RoF  ST  Rcl  Cost
Ver(Crit)  Cr  6dx24(5)  12  14   1500  7000  7.5  1NR  10  -2  Cr1250

The 20mmIAAW is a collapsing railgun firing a depleted uranium dart.  The
entire weapon is a little over 30cm in length, and 5cm wide.  It includes a
laser sight, and can mount a scope or HUD targeting link.

The weapon is disposable, burning out it's batteries and rail after one
shot.  Usual practise is to issue the weapon as an unit of ammo, one to
each soldier.

The weapon as designed is available at GTL 10.

Average damage for the weapon is 504 points.  With the armor divisor,
effective armor penetration is 2520 points of armor.  For example, a IAAW
hitting a suit of Scout/Commando BD would do: (Armor 1200/5 = 240) 264
points of damage to the suit and it's occupant.  It is imporatant to note
that you can buy 304 of these weapons for every suit of S/C Battledress...

Note:  This weapon is as large as is it is only to avoid Acc and SS
penalties.  It could easily be made into a pistol sized weapon.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:07:35 +0000
From: "Jens Maskus" <Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de>
Subject: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)

Lords of Thunder 

A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game

Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale 
Prsenz ist so gut wie nicht vorhanden. Das Imperium betrachten diesen Sektor als 
Pufferzone. Aber eine andere Gefahr droht diesem Sektor. Im Jahre 1106 griff eine 
berlegen Raumflotte, des Xuruk Empires, einem K'kree Splitterstaat, die 
unterlegen Verteidigungsflotte der Renkard Union bei Xabthar an. Kurz darauf 
besetzten sie die gesamte Union. Es sieht sehr danach aus, das sie den axavktrr 
xur einhalten, was sich etwa als berleben durch gerechte Ausrottung bersetzen 
lsst. Dies heisst nichts anderes, als die Auslschung aller Fleischfresser 
(=g'naak) im Universum. Das benachbarte Megusard Corporate sieht sich als 
mgliches nchstes Opfer.

Viele Menschen meinen etwas tun zu mssen, einige der exil-Renkards haben sich 
auf Kolan zusammengetan. Diese Rebellengruppe wird Force Bravo genannt. 
Der Gateway Sektor war schon immer ein unruhiger Sektor. Besiedelt in der Long 
Night, war er immer wieder mit verschieden militrischen Auseinandersetzungen 
konfrontiert. Bisher wurden diese aber immer zwischen Menschen ausgetragen. Der 
Sektor wird von einer Jump 2 Route, dem Gateway-Sardis-Run, durchzogen.

3D Spielmechanik?

Wir spielen in einem 3D Sektor. Dieser kann mit CHVIEW (OS/2, Win NT, Win 3.11, 
Win '98) betrachtet werden. Der Sektor besitzt etwa 4500 Einfach- und 
Mehrfachsonnensystem. Der Sektor GATEWAY.LST liegt aber bisher nur als draft vor, 
wird aber stndig erweitert. Die Region um Kolan und Sardis ist aber schon fertig. 
An einem vollstaendig neuem Programm wird aber fieberhaft gearbeitet. Zur 
verbesserung der Spielmechanik wurde der Jumpdrive auf Jump1=2parsec bis 
Jump6=7parsec erhoeht.

Welche Traveller Version wird benuzt?

Als Regelwerk wird MegaTraveller mit DGP Materialien verwendet mit sehr vielen 
eigenen nderungen. Die Charakterbgen liegen mit einem Ausrstungs- und 
Waffenkatalog im StarOffice 5.0 bei mir vor, kann aber auch in Exel, html, txt 
oder etc. exportiert werden. Wir legen mehr Wert auf Spielflu als auf eine 
berinterpretation von einem Regelwerk.

Was fr eine Art von Campaign ist Lords of Thunder?

One of the best adventures of any RPG, in my opinion. An epic campaign in an 
Imperial client state combining trade, mercenaries, espionage, piracy, scientific 
research, exploration, alien civilizations, one huge fleet battle, and the 
revelation of a Traveller Secret. This is the only Traveller adventure I have seen 
that makes pirates believable, and the only one that reveals a Secret which isn't 
implausibly contrived to draw the player characters into it. It would be a great 
adventure even if the players only sat back and watched news reports, but they can 
do far better for themselves by rushing into the thick of things. von Richard 
Hough <rdhough@home.com>

Gibt es eine allgemeine Stichwortliste?

Es gibt eine Traveller Library.

Wie erhalte ich mehr Campaign bezogen Informationen?

Es gibt eine Sektor Library.

Was ist denn bisher passiert?

Es gibt ein Timeline.

Wie werden die Fahrzeuge erstellt?

Raumschiffe, Vehicle, Roboter werden ueber eine MT Variant Spreedsheet von mir, 
auch nach Wunsch erstellt.

Kann ich Galactic verwenden?

Alle UWP Daten aus Galactic haben hier fast keine Bedeutung, da alle System und 
Planeten neu erstellt werden.

Wie zeitintensiv ist das Spiel?

Prinzipiell solltest Du mglichst werktags deine Emails lesen und beantworten 
knnen. Der Arbeitsaufwand liegt in etwa bei einem fnfstze Absatz pro Tag. Das 
Spiel lebt von dem, was die Spieler schreiben. Die Spieler agieren, der 
Spielmeister dirigiert. Wir legen meist den Schwerpunkt auf die Interaktion der 
Spieler untereinander. Als Neuling knnen wir aber verschiedene herangehensweisen 
benutzen.

Wer leitet das Spiel?

Jens Maskus, Hannover

Wer sind die anderen Mitspieler?

Bjrn Bttcher, Ulm
Ann-Cathrin Holzapfel, Hannover
Dr. Carlos Alos-Ferrer, Wien
Dominque Andre Gunia. Braunschweig
Dipl.-Sozialwiss. Stephan Aspridis, Hannover

Wie kann ich mitmachen?

Schreib mir eine EMail!
Als weitere Grundvorrausetzung gilt, das Du das MegaTraveller Journal #4 Abenteuer 
Lords of Thunder NICHT gelesen hast.

Kann ich mal ein Textbeispiel sehen?

Spieler: B., H. und viele Kopfschmerzen und Krabbeltiere
Ort: Wo es feucht und warm ist.
Zeit: auf jeden fall sehr viel spaeter

Ihr befindet euch in einem Erdloch, die Luft ist feucht und warm, unten bei euch 
ist eine Wasserlache. Ihr seit dreckig einige fetzen haengen euch noch am Leib. 
Wenn ihr eure Koerper inspiziert findet ihre mehre einstichloecher, ob von Insekte 
oder medizinischen Geraeten, koennt ihr nicht unterscheiden. Von draussen hoert 
ihr geschrei, wie als ob jemand ausgepeitscht wird....

B.: Habe ich goessere Wunden, die ich sofort versorgen muss? - liegt hieretwas, 
das ich als Waffe benutzen kann? - hat H. irgendwelche besonderen Merkmale, die 
vorher durch die Kleidung verdeckt wurde? - Wer schreit Mann Frau Unbekannt 
Sprache? - werden wir bewacht? - wenn nein,Wege raus suchen und nutzen, sonst 
Wachen beobacheten! Hat H. irgendwelche besonderen Merkmale, die vorher durch die 
Kleidung verdeckt wurde? 

Nein H. sieht schwach aus!

Wer schreit? Wahrscheinlich S.

Werden wir bewacht? Warst noch nicht in der lage, dass zu klaeren.

B.: Habe ich goessere Wunden, die ich sofort versorgen muss? 

Nein dein Zustand ist wie folgt Modifier STR -4 DEX -4 END -4 INT -2 (SOC zur zeit 
eher = 0 ;-])

Du hast Kopfschmerzen. H. sieht aehnlich aus, ist aber nicht so robust wie du.
Eigentlich nichts Ernstes nur Schwaeche. Einen richtige Arzt wuerde ich aber 
empfehlen. Man weiss ja nie!

A.: Fremde Frau spricht auf R. Dialekt: Hallo Brueder! Ich bin A.. Wollt ihr mit 
oder versauern? Koennt ihr gehen? Eines kann ich euch sagen eure Vorgaenger modern 
gerade vor sich hin. Hindert euch sonst was an einer Flucht? Wieviele Bewacher 
sind hier? Wie sind sie bewaffnet? Ich weiss das ist ein bisschen viel so auf 
einmal, aber ich habe keine Zeit fr ein Kaffekraenzchen.

Die Frau ist dreckig, kraeftig gebaut und mit Machete und Shotgun bewaffnet. Und 
ungeduldig und erwartet eine zuegige Antwort. H. ist am rumstoehnen.

B. (Zu der Frau gewand): Wir schliessen uns an! Wer seid Ihr? Und ueberhaupt wo 
sind wir?

A.: Ihr habt keinen blassen Schimmer was? Ihr seid auf K. Noch genauer im F. 
Flussdelta in der Naehe vom Raumhafen und der Hauptstadt.

Die Frau beginnt waehrend sie redet H. aus dem Loch zu ziehen und ihn nach 
gebrochenen Knochen zu untersuchen. Dann hilft sie auch B. heraus und nimmt ihn 
ebenfalls etwas naeher in Augenschein.

A.: Ich bin wie ich schon sagte A. Das muss euch jetzt reichen. Also wisst ihr 
ungefaehr wieviele von den Verraetern hier herum stromern? Ich habe mit denen noch 
ein oder zwei Huenchen zu rupfen!"

Dann reicht A. B. ihre Shotgun. Hier ich hoffe du kannst damit umgehen. Ist hier 
nicht noch ein Gefangener? Ihr wart doch zu dritt hier angeliefert worden.

Mit den Worten nimmt Sie H. auf den Arm.

B. an A.: Wer sind die Verraeter?

A.: Ist eine laengere Geschichte. Erklaer ich dir wenn wir lebend aus dieser 
Scheisse raus sind. Aber es wuerde mir sehr leid tun wenn du dumm sterben 
wuerdest.

B. an A.: Ich werde mein bestes geben! Ich glaube, unser dritter Mann wird gerade 
gefoltert hoeren sie das nicht? Aber ich bin mir nicht vollkommen sicher, da sich 
mein Kopf anfuehlt als ob er in einen Mixer gesteckt wurde.

A.: Sagte ich nicht das ich A. heisse? Also gut dann bringe ich euch beide 
erstmal in sichere Entfernung. Euren Freund hole ich dann etwas spaeter.

B.: Koennen sie mir sagen, was dieses fuer Einstiche sind (ich deute auf die 
Wunden)?

H.: (stoehnt) Drooog..%&%$/

A.: Nee, Grosser ich bin hier nicht die Frau Doc vom Dienst. Und jetzt Klappe 
halten bis ich sage das ihr wieder reden duerft. Das gilt besonders fuer deinen 
Freund hier. (A. deutet auf H-)

Ich (A.) gehe davon aus das du mir moeglichst lautlos durch die Nacht folgst, bis 
wir an einem kleinen Boot stoppen.

A. hievt H. in das Boot und deckt ihn zu. Sie reicht B. Wasser (H. auch) und ein 
Butterbrot. 

A. zu B.: Wie heissen du und deine Freunde eigentlich? Und woher kommt ihr?

A. setzt sich an das Boot und laesst B. etwas Zeit zum Ausruhen. Nach ein paar 
Minuten kramt sie aus ihrem Rucksack im Boot drei Handgranaten hervor.

A. zu B.: Wollen wir jetzt deinen dritten Freund von den Verraetern erloesen?

B. zu A.: Ich bin B. und komme bzw. wurde hier hergekommen von S.

An Meister: Ich beobachte die Umgebung sehr genau. Sind wir wircklich auf K., was 
sagen die Himmelskoerper? Wie geht D. vor, militaerisch, rebellisch? Was fuer eine 
Ausbildung hat sie wohl? -- Was fuer ein Boot ist das? -- Besitzt A. irdendwelche 
Auffaellichkeiten -- Haben wir viele Spuren hinterlassen? -- Waren wir in einem 
grossen Lager? 


.... die Namen von Orten und Personen sind aus Sicherheitsgrnden gendert 
worden......


- --------------------------------------------------
| Jens.Maskus@stud.uni-hannover.de               |
| http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~faust         |
|                                                |
| Join the Gateway Sector! A PBEM Traveller RPG! |
- --------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:48:43 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)

I hope someone can traslate the rest of this. The one, small, english section 
has peaked my interest!

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:46:34 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics

>OT:  Many people seem to be of the impression that protectionism is
>"unamerican" and therefore to be frowned upon.  In fact, it was none other
>than Alexander Hamilton who suggested the idea of protecting America's
>"infant industries" from foreign trade until they were strong enough to
>compete. (IIRC it was in his report while Treasury Secretary "On
>Manufactures.")  His writings had more influence abroad than at home, and
>are said to have been one of the intellectual forces behind Germany's 19th
>century industrial policy.  Since Japan was in turn heavily influenced by
>German policies the impact of Hamilton's ideas could be said to have been
>felt well into this century.
[snip]
>------------------
>Jim MacLean
>Economist, Traveller Fan

Ah, but it's always different when your own country does it. My country is
protecting its infant industries, your country is favouring its own
companies, and their country is interfering with the free flow of trade for
selfish reasons.

And, speaking as a nonamerican, I at least don't frown on unamerican things :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:47:35 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Red Hot Posters? 2) That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches

1) Red Hot Posters?

>LOOKING FOR POSTERS?
>We have the best posters on the web. Our posters are outrageous. Exotic

<snip>

You know, there are times when I wish that I was much more witty and
harsh than I am.  This is one of those times.  Does anyone have any
really clever wordplay about this spam?

2) That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches.

Fairly recently, I obtained a copy of Paul Johnson's
"The Offshore Islanders: A History of the English People".
And of course, the first chapter dealing with Rome and
England immediately put me in mind of our beloved
Third Imperium and that far-away chunk of the Empire, the
Spinward Marches.

Here, in brief, is the outlines of a dying empire and how the
local yokel's respond to it (summaries and near-quotes of
Johnson, basically)

A) As the end of the 300's approached, Roman had withdrawn
it's pernament garrison's , only sending in occassional
military expedition's to assert their authority

*****
*
* Date of comments: 1260
*
* Spinward Marches parallel: Most of the Imperial Navy
* is withdrawn from the Marches, with the bulk of the defence
* falling on local Colonial Navy units and fixed defences.
* Only when the Zho seem to be acting up does the
* Emperor send in a few fleet's, to show the flag.
* Depending on your assumptions, pirating
* (Dynastic/corporate/intersystem warfare IMTU) goes through
* the roof.
*****

B) The decline of Roman authority produced two seperate
strain's of political thought in Britain.  On one side was those
who thought that the Empire would eventually succeed in it's
fight against the barbarians, and return in force to Britain.
They thought that without Rome, internal order would collapse,
their lives and property would be forfeit, and the economy would
collapse.  The only real hope in their eyes lay in reforging Roman
ties, and get Rome back into Britain in strength.  Seperated from
the rest of the Empire, Britain would drift into anarchy, poverty and
failure.

*****
* Many powerful Spinward leader's understood that the Imperium
* was the best thing to happen to Mankind in an long, long time.
* Without the Imperium, the rule of all-against-all, suppressed
* so long by the Navy, would explode in full force creating
* profound loss of life and property.  Moreover, the Zho's are just waiting
* over the border, hungry to enslave and mindrape the Marches,
* crushing a thousand year's of freedom under their boots.
* The Marches will only survive if the Imperium survives, and everything
* that can be done to regain pernament Imperial Navy fleet's must be done.
*****

Onthe other hand, the nationalist's believed that the forces destroying the
Roman Imperium could not be stopped at this late date: that it was simply
wishful thinking to believe that Rome would return, and that Britain was
alway's unimportant and expendable in Rome's eyes.  What Imperial
officer's that Rome sent was "far more interested in carving up sub-empires
for themselves back on the Continent than to protect British lives and
property".  They took their vitally needed military forces out of Britain
and
made themselves little fiefdoms in Gaul.

*****
* The other political grouping in the Marches - led by intellectual's, but
* also joined by many nobles - believed that nothing would
* save the Imperium.  Somehow, local forces would have to be
* raised to replace the departed Imperial fleet's, and independence
* will be proclaimed to prevent the latest Emperor of the Flag
* from stealing them to suppress the next rebellion.
*****

In 406, the British forced the leader of the weak Roman garrison to
declare himself local Emperor.  This was quite illegal, but made sense
to the British, who desperately wanted military protection.

"When, four month's after his appointment, Gratian made it plain they
had to stay in Britain, they murdered him: instead, they gave the
command to a new and foreign usurper, who called himself
Constantine III; and he took all the regular units across the
Channel to create a Gallic empire."

*****
* In 1255, the Moot of the Spinward Marches declared the dissolution
* of the Imperium, and placed Viscount Seagate as head of the new
* Commonwealth of the Marches.  There was deep division within
* the Marches regarding this move, eventually leading to the
* assasination of the Viscount on Jewell.  The Commonwealth
* Admiral forced the nobility to swear alligance to himself as Regent,
* gathered all the jump-capable warship's of the Marches, and
* moved to conquer Vland, completely abandoning the despised
* Marches.
*****

"What use to Rome to Britain?  Britain had been for centuries exploited
as an ecomonic colony.  She had been only the barest measure of local
self-government.  If Roman authority was fully re-established, the process
of exploitation would merely resume.  But in the meantime Rome was
impotent, and the time had come to assert British independence."

*****
* With the deep decline of the Marches, there has been a massive flight
* in wealth and population to the Imperial Core regions.  A typical
subsector
* behind the Claw has as large an ecomony as a decent high-pop system
* in the Core: few wish to live in the ruins of the Marches economy.
*****

After the pro-independence party of Britain gained control in 410, they
did "... a unique act of statesmanship.  Having seized power for themselves,
they wrote to Emperor Honorius asking formal and legal authority for what
they had done.  They had got independence de facto: they now wanted it
de jure, a written acknowledgement from the imperial power that Britain
had been decolonised with the permission from the authorities.
More specifically, they wanted exemption from the famous lex Julia de
vi publica, the bedrock statue of the Roman Empire, which forbid civilians
to bear arms except when hunting or travelling.  In due course they got it.
Honorius sent his rescript, or reply, accepting the fait accompli, and
instructing the civitates of Britain to look to their own defences.  Thus
the
ancient world ended, and the independent history of Britain was resumed,
in a throughly legal and constitutional manner.... It was a unique event in
the
history of the Roman Empire; it was based on no precedent, and had no
parallels elsewhere.  For the first time a colony had regained its
independence
by law; and it was to remain the last occasion until, in the twentieth
century, the
offshore islanders began the consitiutional dismantlement of their own
empire."

*****
* A possible goal of the PC's in this universe is to convince
* Emperor Emdiri Marlin Alkhalikoi - Emperor Emdiri II, 46th
* Emperor of the Third Imperium -  to reconsitiute the Domain of
* Deneb and make it an autonomous region, much like the
* Solomani Automonous Region that Empress
* Margret I created in 704.
*****

*****
*
* Background
*
* Norris was the first and last Archduke to ever rule the Domain of Deneb.
* The continued growth of internal divisions, trade frictions and
* inter-Imperium warfare led Empress Ciencia Iphegenia Alkhalikoi
* (daughter of Emperor Strephon: born 1088, crowned 1122, died 1142)
* to disband the Domains, replace as many Solomani nobles as possible with
* Sylean and Vilani nobility, and force a centralization of the Imperial
* economy to the vital Vland/Sylea/Terra trade routes.  She also started
* the massive withdraw of capital and military might from "lesser concerns"
* like the Spinward Marches/Zhodani border, back into the Imperial
heartland.
*
* At a different time, she may have become a truly great Empress.  Instead,
* she had her hand's full simply keeping the Imperium together.  Ciencia's
lack of
* issue caused a long succession crisis, which grew in bitterness.
* At first, the Imperial bureaucracy and the senior members of the
* Alkhalikoi family kept things running while the nobility endlessly
debated,
* until Duke Dikirlishi of Vland Sector proclaimed himself Regent in 1151.
*
* A major political mess followed, which slowly seeped into occasional
* violence and - more importantly -a  deepening depression as various
* secotors and Imperial ministries fought over trade issues. The
* Alkhalikoi line is still recognized as the legitimate Imperial dynasty,
but
* long suffered from internal divisions and fighting, resolved only in 1205
* with the crowning of Emperor Zhakirov II.
* Sadly, by that time the Third Imperium is but a shell of it's old self,
impoverished
* and frail, surviving on taxes on the Vland/Sylea/Terra route.
*
* (The other interstellar human polities had their own problems: the Zhodani
* Consulate was destroyed via the Empress Wave, the Solomani
* Confederation fought a devastating civil war in 1128-1134 over the
* independence of Aldebaran and half of Neworld sector, ending in
* collapse of the Confederation.)
*
*****

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:24:19 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

>- - Someone on the TML pointed out that after a week in jump, if it
>  wasn't black then there was a problem with heat build-up.
>
>4) Jumpspace looks ...
>   a) Gray
>   b) TV snow
>   c) Black
>   d) None of the above

_If_ photons precipitate out of jumpspace when they leave the 
jumpbubble then there is no problem. The ship will absorb the photons 
(there must be photons if there is a visible effect) radiate them in 
addition to the usual radiated heat and the will precipitate out of 
jumpspace.

There is no way that "the jumpspace photons" (probably caused by
some reaction between the jumpbubble and jumpspace) would be a problem
as even small traveller ships are capable of radiating hundreds of 
MW:s Actually jumpspace is as good a heatsink as blackglobes. 

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> 
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that 
it was impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is 
the purpose if computers --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:24:21 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

You probably can't detect a whaleiod with a densiometer as it (very 
probably) has the same density as the medium it lives in uniformly 
troughout its body. A human overall has density ~1 and so does brain 
tissue, fat, muscle and probably bone too.

A meson sub however will at least have this large empty tunnel and 
large dense capacitiors for the meson gun in addition to powerplant 
and quarters. So it can be detected if the densiometer has sufficient 
resolution and sensitivity.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> 
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that 
it was impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is 
the purpose if computers --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:24:24 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

>(would T-plates and/or HEPlaR work underwater?)

HEPlaR expels MW:s of superheated plasma at a healthy fraction of 
lightspeed (I remember something about 0.3c). Id say dont if you 
want to survive.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> 
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that 
it was impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is 
the purpose if computers --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:24:17 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Modifying starships

>>That's a little pricey don't you think?  The bulkheads are already 
>>there. All you need is to give your engineer a good supply of 
>>cutting torch gas and put him to work.  After the gutting you'd 
>>need a few odds and ends to finish up the job.  A good scrounge 
>>should be able to get those for free or a the price of a round or 
>>two of drinks but IF you do not have such a person a few K credit 
>>should get you the plate metal and piping to do the job.  And why 
>>not sell those state rooms and there contents for a profit?  I'm 
>>sure  there would be some demand for them on the spare parts 
>>market...

Would you remodel your house this way? Say:
- - Hmm, I want some more space here, wait I will just have to knock 
down this wall (followed by screaming as the roof collapses). >:-)

>OK, you have to take out more than just bulkheads and partitions.  
>You have to remove or block air vents.  You have to reroute fiber 
>optic and/or hard lines and power cables.  You have to pull up the 
>grav plates on the floor.  

It could be _very_ hard to do modify a ship. Maybe the staterooms and 
jumpdrive/fuel tankage/cargo hold are in different/opposite areas of 
the ship. Maybe the staterooms are in different places of the ship or 
there is no access to the hull (for cargo doors).

If you are freeing up a lot of space you are probably forced to 
remove some bulkhead and reinforce others. There could be other 
problems as well with security and removed/moved airtight bulkheads.

To do this you would have to get an engineer, an architect and 
blueprints but for gaming I guess that the deckplans will be 
sufficient. Just remember that you can't run around and knock down 
the interior structure any way you like. The designers put the 
bulkhead there for a purpose.

Example:
Take a trader where the lower decks are cargo hold and upper decks 
are the rest. Say that the floor of the staterooms you want to remove 
is the roof of the cargo hold. Remove the staterooms. Now you got a 
more cargo space but in a very inconvenient place several meters in 
the air. And this is a rather nice example as it could be a lot worse.

>You have to retune the life support system a bit to keep it from 
>taking out *too* much CO2 (remember, it's CO2 that triggers your 
>body to *breathe*).

If your LS system doesn't do that automatically then you need a new 
LS system. It's unlikely you would have to retune the LS-system to 
keep the crew from fainting if you made a run without passenger.

>IMTU, conversions like this also need *paperwork* to show 
>that the conversion was *SAFE* or their spaceworthyness certificate 
>gets pulled and the boat is grounded until it *DOES* comply.

Definitely IMTU too.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> 
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that 
it was impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is 
the purpose if computers --- Terry Pratchett

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #463
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 17 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 464



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Surface based Black Globes
Re: Jump Q's
Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...
Icelandic Names
Starship Modules at other GT Tech Levels
101 Starships
Re: Modifying starships
Re: Modifying starships
GT Beam Weapon design dillema
Re: New solar system discovered
Re: Icelandic Names
Re: That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches
Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #452
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Meson Guns
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:24:31 CEST
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Surface based Black Globes

>As I understand the Black Globe technology a Black Globe generates a
>spherical forcefield which cuts off everything (including gravity). 
>This means you _can't_ have the power source outside the actual 
>globe. Also once the globe is turned on a chunk of the planet will 
>end up drifting off. For an example check out the Skylark Of Space 
>by E E Doc Smith. To actually use a Black Globe you'd need to 
>generate a hemispherical field or a spherical field which allows 
>gravity to come through. Either way it would be a higher tech level 
>than a standard Black Globe.
>
>Paul

Actually its even worse. Blackglobes in an atmosphere is abig no-no. 
The blackglobe absorbs all energy so the energy from the atmosphere 
as it is cooled to 0 K will overload the capacitors and blow 
everything up. Possibly it will also absorb potential energy (caused 
by gravity) speeding this up even more.

>Why do I have a feeling that if you took a black globe generator 
>capable of shielding a city, and put in and a huge contra-grav 
>generator in the middle of that city and flipped them both on, you'd 
>have a airborne city?
>				Zane

Well it would become skyhigh at least. :)

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> 
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that 
it was impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is 
the purpose if computers --- Terry Pratchett

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:48:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Q's

"Patrik Holmstrm" wrote:

> >- - Someone on the TML pointed out that after a week in jump, if it
> >  wasn't black then there was a problem with heat build-up.
> >
> >4) Jumpspace looks ...
> >   a) Gray
> >   b) TV snow
> >   c) Black
> >   d) None of the above
>
> _If_ photons precipitate out of jumpspace when they leave the
> jumpbubble then there is no problem. The ship will absorb the photons
> (there must be photons if there is a visible effect) radiate them in
> addition to the usual radiated heat and the will precipitate out of
> jumpspace.
>
> There is no way that "the jumpspace photons" (probably caused by
> some reaction between the jumpbubble and jumpspace) would be a problem
> as even small traveller ships are capable of radiating hundreds of
> MW:s Actually jumpspace is as good a heatsink as blackglobes.

I think that what you see when you look at jump space is the interface at
the edge of the jump bubble.  That interface may be somewhat reflective to
the visible spectrum while being highly transmissive to lower frequency EM
emissions like heat.  However, the "supposed" heat build up in jumpspace
may also lend more credence to jump dimming to cut down on heat
production.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:38:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...

Gregory Wall wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregory Wall <roc@kewl.com.au>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
> Date: Saturday, 17 April 1999 5:48
> Subject: Reavers' Deep...
> 
> >
> >
> >Also, on several of the world stats, there are entries like the one below,
> >is the number a typo (I'm assuming it is, but with some of the rule books
> >and the fact there are a few of them, I can't be sure... I have been out of
> >the loop for a while you know ;^)
> >
> >*****  *****
> >Uralggash Subsector
> >ca. 1119
> >  Name   Hex  UWP             B   Trade             TPPG   Alg    Stellar
> >Mecca   3129 B858768-8        Ag O:3130    813       Oc     M0 V
> >
> >*****  *****
> >
> 
> Sorry, the numbers I refer to are the ones under the Trade heading: Ag
> O:3130.

OK, the O: 3130 means that Mecca was colonised and is owned by Oceanus,
Reavers' Deep 3130.  It's an agricultural colony, with several of the
Oceanus satrapies present, which explains its government type of
Balkanised.

Keven
- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:04:23 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Icelandic Names

Does anyone out there speak Icelandic, or have ready access to an Icelandic
dictionary?

I've been tinkering with a few Sword World ships for the next release of
101 Starships, and I need some decent names (my pocket Norsk-Engelsk
dictionary just isn't good enough).

Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:07:56 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Starship Modules at other GT Tech Levels

Has anyone designed modules at levels other than GTL10 and GTL12?

While trying to design some Sword World ships for 101 Starships, I noticed
that most of the Sword Worlds are only GTL9. I'm hoping that someone has
designed the standard modules at other tech levels, so that I don't have to.

As a bonus, if I get these I should be able to incorporate other GTLs into
GT Shipyard, which means a greater variety of ships in 101 Starships.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:10:16 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: 101 Starships

I'll be revised 101 Starships during the rest of this month, aiming for
release three. This would be a good time to send me suggestions, problems,
and submissions.

You can download the latest version (release 2) from the archive section of
www.bits.org.uk or from Freelance Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:58:57 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Modifying starships

In a message dated 4/17/99 10:31:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
glappkaeft@hotmail.com writes:

<< Take a trader where the lower decks are cargo hold and upper decks 
 are the rest. Say that the floor of the staterooms you want to remove 
 is the roof of the cargo hold. Remove the staterooms. Now you got a 
 more cargo space but in a very inconvenient place several meters in 
 the air. And this is a rather nice example as it could be a lot worse. >>

don't forget that in this case you would have to pay for a freight elevator 
(or a hatch and an antigrav lfter...) to connect this new cargo deck to the 
main cargo deck. Quite expensive...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:03:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Modifying starships

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/17/99 10:31:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> glappkaeft@hotmail.com writes:
> 
> << Take a trader where the lower decks are cargo hold and upper decks
>  are the rest. Say that the floor of the staterooms you want to remove
>  is the roof of the cargo hold. Remove the staterooms. Now you got a
>  more cargo space but in a very inconvenient place several meters in
>  the air. And this is a rather nice example as it could be a lot worse. >>
> 
> don't forget that in this case you would have to pay for a freight elevator
> (or a hatch and an antigrav lfter...) to connect this new cargo deck to the
> main cargo deck. Quite expensive...

I've got one word for that.  Tankage.

Keven
- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:16:08 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: GT Beam Weapon design dillema

I've got a dilemma that I'm hoping someone can help me with.  I have
designed an Excel spreadsheet that calculates GT beam weapons (Lasers,
NPAWS, Mesons, etc.)  Unfortunately, the numbers I get don't quite match up
with the figures in GT.  I can't release the spreadsheet for general
playtesting since I haven't cleared this prog with SJG, and I don't want to
submit it to SJG until it works correctly.  

What I'm hoping for, is that a person or two on the list who are familiar
both with the GT design system and Excel will volunteer as beta testers.  

Please e-mail me privately if you are interested.  You must have Excel 97
for this to work.  Credit will, of course, be given to any beta testers.
If this thing ever works, and SJG clears it, I plan to distribute it for free.

Thanks,





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

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	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
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                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
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WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:13:56 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: New solar system discovered

Finally, an excuse to de-lurk from the list.

Last Thursday, David Smart posted news from the BBC about the discovery 
of a multiple-planet system in Upsilon Andromedae. (Someone else -- 
don't remember who (sorry!) repeated the info later that day.)

I think I might have found it on my Solomani Rim map.

A few assumptions:
- - uAnd's distance of 44 LY from Earth works out to just under 13.5
parsecs. Call it 13 for simplicity's sake.
- - The "flattening" of the galaxy for the Traveller map means that the 
most important indicator for finding a star on the map is distance and 
its Right Ascension. uAnd has a RA of 1h 36m 48s.
- - Tau Ceti (Iilike/Solomani Rim 1429) has a RA of 1h 44m 08S, putting
it in the same part of the sky. Upsilon Andromedae would be just a 
little clockwise of Tau Ceti (from Terra's perspective) on a Traveller 
map.

The best fit for the above is Skyron/Solomani Rim 0533, which
has a UPP (from Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim) of B312433-C.
Not exactly the French Riviera, but it's there. And according to the 
map, gas giants are present. :)

- -- g




      Glenn St-Germain | Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
glenn@powersurfr.com  |  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/
    "I don't want a Rolls Royce. A computer will do."
                         -- Nash the Slash

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:34:55
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Icelandic Names

At 03:04 PM 4/17/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Does anyone out there speak Icelandic, or have ready access to an Icelandic
>dictionary?
>
>I've been tinkering with a few Sword World ships for the next release of
>101 Starships, and I need some decent names (my pocket Norsk-Engelsk
>dictionary just isn't good enough).
>
>Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Hvao gera bu borf nafns fyrir?

(What do you need names for?)

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:18:51 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches

>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>Subject: 1) Red Hot Posters? 2) That *other* Imperium and the Spinward
Marches
>
>1) Red Hot Posters?
>
>>LOOKING FOR POSTERS?
>>We have the best posters on the web. Our posters are outrageous. Exotic
>
><snip>
>
>You know, there are times when I wish that I was much more witty and
>harsh than I am.  This is one of those times.  Does anyone have any
>really clever wordplay about this spam?

Exotic, huh. Clearly, you'll need a Vacc Suit to view them. Could be worse.
They culd be Insidious ...

>
>2) That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches.
>
>Here, in brief, is the outlines of a dying empire and how the
>local yokel's respond to it (summaries and near-quotes of
>Johnson, basically)
>

I like this stuff, but I think it's actually *more* appropriate for the
First Civil War period ... remember, Arbatrella was the Provincial
General/Governor who successfully took her Fleet home.

I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
Germans fits though.

<huge snip of good stuff>

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:38:54 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Dudes, Dudettes.

Who all is Here?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:57:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT), Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

>Well, the entire meson gun physics is gobbledygook, because decay doesn't
>behave like that (half-life X means that half of all particles will decay by
>time X, not that all the particles suddenly decay at time X).

Yeah.  I think GT should make the explination that the mesons
have been "contrived to decay at a certain time".

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:03:34 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

[Regarding Vargr eating K'Kree]

I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:31:29 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)

>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:55:07 EDT
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com

>In a message dated 4/14/99 9:15:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>brannonb@animal.blarg.net writes:
>
><< Sorry, Doug -- Read it again. And this time, think "Ketchup"  ;) >>
>
>My spin is that the Vargr with their wonderful sense of subdued taste (as an
>example look at their clothing...) would probably add as much goofy spices
>and sauces to their meats as possible, and their cooking contests would end
>in gunfire...:-)

Note: The Vargr are prefectly able to appreciate subletly.  The
difference is in who they see colors (they see some we don't,
don't see some we do), not in a lack of appriation for subltly.

In fact, my impression of the descriptions of their descernment
in grades of meats (clearly enhanced, not covered, by sauces
or it wouldn't matter what the meat was), etc.  lead me to
believe that their tastes may be _more_ subtle than humans.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:42:39 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #452

Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:39:43 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>What about other humans (at least the Vilani and Zhodani)?  The Vilani
>are from a planet with very few foods edible by humans without massive
>processing.  Could their dark secret be that they were cannibals for the
>first part of their history, until the shugili really figured out how to
>process local flora and fauna?  I say dark secret, because Vilani and
>Vargr doesn't address this at all, and, as it's written from the
>perspective of a Vilani, if the Vilani did this and didn't want to hide
>it, it would be mentioned.

It should be riterated, canabalism can not be used to substitute
for a source of food.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:53:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:08:59 +1200
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

>1.  Food. IIRC Terran life is based around left handed amino acids, but
>    there is no reason why an alien ecosystem can't use right handed
>    amino acids. So right away 50% of the seemingly self sufficent worlds
>    require the import of either a) an entire ecosystem (from bacteria up)
>    or b) food. Add in lack of trace elements and you can probably cross
>    off around 60% to 70% of such worlds.

Given the way that foods are presented as being exported (Groat is exported
to the Aslan and Vargr, etc., varies Terran foods are
mentioned as being shared by other major races).  The implication is
that most species use the same amino acids.  (All the major
races must use the same amino acis)  And PC are always visiting
new worlds and having descriptions of the local foods.  If this
was an issue, then it would be raised each time.

This is not unreasonable.  It really isn't know either way, but
it could be that there is a prefered orientation.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:57:31 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)

Jens Maskus wrote:

> Lords of Thunder
>
> A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
>
> Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale
> <snip>

uh do we have an english translation of this?....or french maybe?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:56:09 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

>[Regarding Vargr eating K'Kree]
>
>I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
>would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
>eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
>you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
>lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.


    Let me see, when I pull off a steak the cow is dead.  But, if a cow
walked up & talked to me, I would have to say, "Amber, git me my shooting
iron.".

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:56:42 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

Is the point really whether the ships can find the guns?  A
planetary site is limited by volume and mass constraints like
those on a ship.  They are likely to have a larger range.  The
difficulty will be getting in close enough to hit them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:22:16 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 04:56 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>[Regarding Vargr eating K'Kree]
>>
>>I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
>>would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
>>eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
>>you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
>>lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.
>
>
>    Let me see, when I pull off a steak the cow is dead.  But, if a cow
>walked up & talked to me, I would have to say, "Amber, git me my shooting
>iron.".

Hell no!  You don't want to _kill_ it.  You want a stun prod to knock it
out so you can do the talk show circuit!  Naturally a tactical marketing
team from Astroburger will be hot on your trail to "remove" the chatting
bovine from disrupting sales.  You should be able to clear at least several
thousand CR before this occurs, though.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:29:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: How hard it can be to kill a world!

On 04/16/99 15:24:27 you wrote:
>
>jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote
>
>> > So assuming Phil's figures are correct, can you beat 7,377Cr per 
>> > person per year by importing the food ?
>
>> In general, farming has got to be cheaper on a planet than an asteroid 
>> because the planet gives you soil, air, water, gravity, etc. for free 
>> whereas on an asteroid you have to build everything yourself.
>
>But the market value of the planet and the land on it reflects the uses
>it can be put too.  Logically if using planets is cheaper then using
>asteroids more people will use planets.  As the quantity demanded of
>planetary farmland goes up so will its market price.  At some point it
>should reach market equalibrium with asteroids.

	This is kinda like saying that the price of farmland in Florida will 
rise until it is price-competitive to grow oranges at the South Pole.
	Something like this would only happen if the demand for oranges was so 
high that demand could only be served by pulling in land as unproductive as 
Antarctica.  It is much more likely that demand can be satisfied by 
terrestrial farmland at a price far below what asteroid farms would have to 
charge.  If the nearest Ag world is a long way away, some goods relatively 
easy to produce in an Asteroid might be grown, like algae or catfish or 
something.

>Planets are a good like any other, albeit one that is somewhat difficult
>to transport....
>
	Right, which is why you transport the products of a desirable planet 
instead.  You've got the right idea, you just presumed an inelastic price 
and enormous demand.  Your basic idea was right.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:38:31 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

- ----- Original Message -----
: >I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
: >would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
: >eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
: >you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
: >lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.


Mm-mm, brain food.  Gives that SmartFood label a whole new batch of ad
copy ideas.



Acting V.Adm. C. Michael,
Sword Worlds Navy, Gram Fleet:
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:43:17 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> [Regarding Vargr eating K'Kree]
> 
> I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
> would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
> eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
> you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
> lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.

Why am I reminded of Milliways, "The Restaurant at the End of the
Universe"?

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:56:53 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> ----- Original Message -----
> : >I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
> : >would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
> : >eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
> : >you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
> : >lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.
> 
> Mm-mm, brain food.  Gives that SmartFood label a whole new batch of ad
> copy ideas.

I'm reminded of an ad I once saw in a magazine, a cartoon of 
a cow painting the letters onto a large billboard sign reading 
"EAT MORE CHICKEN".

Still, the idea of a black market in K'Kree meat on the Imperium's 
trailing frontier might make an interesting / weird / somewhat sick 
adventure seed...


      Glenn St-Germain | Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
glenn@powersurfr.com  |  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/
    "I don't want a Rolls Royce. A computer will do."
                         -- Nash the Slash

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:06:11 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Glenn St-Germain <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

<< I'm reminded of an ad I once saw in a magazine, a cartoon of
a cow painting the letters onto a large billboard sign reading
"EAT MORE CHICKEN".

Still, the idea of a black market in K'Kree meat on the Imperium's
trailing frontier might make an interesting / weird / somewhat sick
adventure seed... >>

    Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see it
now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg*  And
they could also serve Hiver.  Think about the money making potential.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #464
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 18 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 465



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: New solar system discovered
Re: Skill specialisation
Re: Economics of drop tanks 
Re: New solar system discovered
Re: Meson Guns
Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
re: failed societies
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Technology Marches On...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:27:09 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> Still, the idea of a black market in K'Kree meat on the Imperium's
> trailing frontier might make an interesting / weird / somewhat sick
> adventure seed... >>
> 
> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg* 

Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree...

> And they could also serve Hiver.  Think about the money making potential.

But Hivers don't eat K'Kree -- they just eat fungus. :)

- -- g


Glenn St-Germain . Edmonton, AB . glenn@powersurfr.com
         http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/
 Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:39:10 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Glenn St-Germain <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction



<< > Still, the idea of a black market in K'Kree meat on the Imperium's
> trailing frontier might make an interesting / weird / somewhat sick
> adventure seed... >>
>
> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg*

Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree... >>

    More good eating is on the way.  *weg*  Think about it, RFK kiosks could
follow 3I Marines & serve up the dead & wounded K'Kree right there.  I know
it is sick, but hell it would make money.  And, the Vargr Troops would be
happy, K'Kree bones are not hollow.  So they could knaw on them all day
long.  *eweg*

<< > And they could also serve Hiver.  Think about the money making
potential.

But Hivers don't eat K'Kree -- they just eat fungus. :) >>

    No, but if you market it right, Humans, Aslan, & Vargr would.
    "Eat the people that f**k up other cultures, get your own back"

Glenn St-Germain . Edmonton, AB . glenn@powersurfr.com


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:40:37 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 07:27 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Still, the idea of a black market in K'Kree meat on the Imperium's
>> trailing frontier might make an interesting / weird / somewhat sick
>> adventure seed... >>
>> 
>> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
>> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg* 
>
>Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree...

I say stuff the Rebellion and bring on the 6th Frontier War!



Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:14:26 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: New solar system discovered

Glenn St-Germain wrote:
> I think I might have found [Upsilon Andromedae] on my Solomani Rim map.
> 
> A few assumptions:
> [detective work snipped]
> 
> The best fit for the above is Skyron/Solomani Rim 0533, which
> has a UPP (from Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim) of B312433-C.
> Not exactly the French Riviera, but it's there. And according to the
> map, gas giants are present. :)

*applause* Well done! (Were there any other candidates at 14pc 
or at slightly different angles?)

Okay, how do we now go about making sure that the astronomical
community, decades or centuries from now, remembers to name the 
closest-match planet in the u.And system "Skyron" once we manage 
to survey it?

(Don't worry if we find a T-norm planet in the system in addition
to a 312, we can always nuke it into uninhabitability later, 
leaving Skyron as the mainworld.)

- -RB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:54:50 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Skill specialisation

<Snip>
>
>G:T? Ask a GURPS player.  ;-)  However, probably not, since one of my
>gripes with GURPS (or Rolemaster etc) is that this rule DOESN'T exist,
<snip>

Actually Rolemaster has a similar skills thing which has much the same
effect, it's just a pain to implement due to the whole thing being yet
another set of tables to cross reference things on...

Cheers,
Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:14:02 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 

Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:49:15 EDT, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>> >Sure, but that material is far from comprehensive. So far you haven't come
>> >up with any canonical facts that prove that drop tanks do not exist.
>>
>> Well, I think I have.  I think that presenting thing like
>
>Except you haven't.  "Think" is hardly enough.

Well, I'm willing let those who read this make up their own
minds.  As the whether I have suceeded, you are hardly an
objective view point.

>Hans is probably out for a
>page cite

Hans is perfectly capable of saying what he want.  He also seem
more than able to understand my references, we just didn't
agree on interpretations.

If you want to try engage me in "posting tatics" arguements on
our threads, that is one thing (I don't care for it, but I can
always drop out and we all know how well you claim that you
were right because I was supposedly the only one posting
in oppostion turned out...) but don't just drop in on my discussions with
others unless you have a direct point to make (not just to
characterize the discussion negatively).  (Esp. when the
thread has reach a point where were are better off "agreeing
to disagree" and you are only pushing to prolong disucssion
pointlessly).
[More generaly characterizations and a place where Gary didn't
understand my point.]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:41:39 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: New solar system discovered

<color><param>0000,0000,7F00</param>> > I think I might have found [Upsilon Andromedae] on my Solomani Rim map.

...

> > The best fit for the above is Skyron/Solomani Rim 0533, which

> > has a UPP (from Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim) of B312433-C.

> > Not exactly the French Riviera, but it's there. And according to the

> > map, gas giants are present. :)

> 

> *applause* Well done! (Were there any other candidates at 14pc 

> or at slightly different angles?)


</color>Actually, yes to both:

- - Cadmus (0532, C532423-B), 13 pc from Terra

- - Kraken (0432, C57A587-B), 14 pc from Terra

 


Choosing Skyron over Cadmus was more or less a judgment call on 

my part, based on the angle from Terra. There is a list on the web

at:

	
<bold>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4224/library/solomanistars.html</bold>


called "The Known Star List for the Solomani Rim" which tries to match 
known stars in Sol's vicinity to the Traveller map. uAnd. is not 
listed, but a great number are. Eyck/Solomani Rim 0426 is identified on

that list as "Beta Cassiopei", which has a Right Ascencion of just 
about 0h -- and is almost dead-on due spinward from Terra. This gave me

a great reference point to work with.


(Anyone running campaigns in the Solomani Rim should definitely

check out the Known Star List.)


- -- g



<nofill>
============================================================
Glenn St-Germain | Edmonton, AB | glenn@powersurfr.com 
"Call me paranoid, but my first reaction, upon learning 
about the dead sheep being found in treetops in New Zealand,
was that something unusual was going on."    -- Dave Barry
============================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 22:54:39 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

On 04/17/99 at 04:56 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:

>Is the point really whether the ships can find the guns?  A planetary
>site is limited by volume and mass constraints like those on a ship. 
>They are likely to have a larger range.  The difficulty will be
>getting in close enough to hit them. 

Yes, I picture the meson cannon being like the shore batteries
around harbors during the 18th century.  Shore based guns had a
greater range than ship based cannon, not a *lot* longer range, but
enough to make a real difference.  I can't remember a case of
successful assault by sea on a well defended harbor that didn't
depend on guile and subterfuge.

Of course, if you have a large enough fleet and are willing to get
to chewed up then you might be able to overwhelm a planet's
defenses.  That might be the only thing that works really well
defended planets.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:40:29 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, 18 April 1999 4:54
Subject: Re: Reavers' Deep (Addendum)...



>OK, the O: 3130 means that Mecca was colonised and is owned by Oceanus,
>Reavers' Deep 3130.  It's an agricultural colony, with several of the
>Oceanus satrapies present, which explains its government type of
>Balkanised.
>
>Keven
>--
>tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>                                                     Science-Fiction
>Adventure
>                                                     In Reavers' Deep
>

Thanks Kevin, like I said, I have been out of the loop.  I started way back
when with CT's LBB's whose supplements, adventures, etc. were hard to get
where I live (we are the tourist capital of Australia, if it isn't a
souvenir or beach wear... it wasn't that common in the late 70's, early
80's!

We had a go at MT (which was more available by that time), but my players
found it to confusing, especially the technical design method in the first
book for starships.  Even if I persevered, they were not interested in
playing from that media.  Then I even had a go at T:NE, but by that time, we
were running short of gaming time, there were studies in Uni, girlfriends
and/or wives, etc.  So I got out of the gaming scene for quite a while, I
have never seen the colonised data on a UWP before because of that.

Thanks again -- live and continue to learn hey?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:21:57 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

>>> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
>>> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.
*weg*
>>Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree...
>I say stuff the Rebellion and bring on the 6th Frontier War!


    I agree.  *weg*  Let the 3I whup some K'Kree tushie.  They do make good
eatin'.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:43:33 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: failed societies

alvin plummer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Embracing women as equal partners in life doubles the available labor pool.
>The US economy now routinely operates at a wartime level of human-resource
>committment on a routine basis. Suppressing half the population not only
>removes them from productive positions but also wastes the energy spent
>doing so. Allow talent into a work force and you create jobs.

Heh.  "Suppressing half the population not only removes them from productive
positions...." There are a large number of women who would rightfully
resent the implication that they were "oppressed" into starting
families, or that raising children is not a productive activity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The fastest-growing part of the American (and developed-world) economy
is the Service sector. The people who clean our clothes, cook our meals,
care for our children, run our errands, etc.

These tasks have always needed to be done. They were simply done
by people who weren't counted in measurements of the economy -
housewives. 

As more and more families saw the "free" housekeeper/nanny/cook
turn into another working parent, the value of this person to the
household has started to become apparent. Especially when the 
replacement value of this person is reflected in a massive increase
in the service economy.

(I'm not indicating that people are hiring out and out live-in servants,
but every time a family orders a pizza or drops a kid off at day-care
we see a service that cost nothing (because the housewife did it for "free") 
changed to a service that money is paid for and the economists can see.)

ObTrav: a society that creates invisible housekeepers out of half the
population is probably the simplest hidden factor a interplanetary
economist has to deal with.

Kharganian Merchant: "Why should I pay good credits for a washing
machine? My husbands keep the laundry done just fine, and cost me
nothing but food - and I have to feed them anyway, at least until
after breeding season. Make their workload easier? Do you realize how
stupid they'll make me look if I start pampering them?"

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:47:56 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 09:21 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
>
>>>> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
>>>> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.
>*weg*
>>>Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree...
>>I say stuff the Rebellion and bring on the 6th Frontier War!
>
>
>    I agree.  *weg*  Let the 3I whup some K'Kree tushie.  They do make good
>eatin'.

Ok, if the 3I and the horses go eyeball to halter, what do the Solomani and
Hivers do?  The Solomani might try and get involved in a land grab, but
would the Hivers perhaps try to "mediate" a cease fire or settlement?

This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info on
the cattle ships.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:56:25 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

David P. Summers writes:

>Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:38:53 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>That fact is that if it was presented to me "Oh, most things have always
>gone by drop tanks" that _would_ be a problem for me.

Me too. But "Oh, we're in the process of adapting to this new idea" works
just fine for me.

>>Drop tank service will be between pairs of worlds with a lot of trade. It
>>won't be between worlds with lots of ships and worlds with few.
> 
>I don't agree. There isn't any reason to expect them to be that expensive.

That's what you think. You MAY even be right (although I don't think you
are). But until you present me with some hard figures, I'm not terribly
impressed with what is, after all, merely an unsupported assumption on
your part.

>If you get at least a few ships a day, it will be reasonable to have drop
>tank service.

Over 50% of worlds in the Traveller Universe has a population of less than
100,000. What makes you think they would be visited by a couple of ships
per day? Moreover, it would have to be a couple of the same model of ship
per day (since there's no reason to suppose that drop tanks that fits one
model would fit any other models, not even of the same displacement, and
most certainly not of different tonnages.

>>Drop tank tramp ships? My guess is that drop tank service and tramp ships
>>will be incompatible. How do you figure otherwise?
> 
>Because it is cheaper?

Only if there is enough traffic to warrant it.

>They increase a Beowulf's cargo 30%. 30% of your monthly mortgage payment
>is 33,750 Cr. We know from Far Trader the cost of a tanker to move cargo
>out to the jump is 100Cr/dton of fuel.

I'd be extremely surprised if that price isn't dependent on the space tugs
being occupied all the time.

>Then all you need is the tanker to hang around and fuel a ship or just a
>big tank to store it in.

And a set of drop tanks that fit a Beowulf. Furthermore, the official rules
state that drop tanks are one-use-only. The reason why drop tanks are a
problem at all is that we have decided that it is reasonable to assume that
it would be possible to design drop tanks that can be reused. But that
dosen't mean we have to say that they can be _freely_ reused. If we
compromise on a requirement that drop tanks need an overhaul before they
can be reused, we introduce a limiting factor that will increas the cost
of using them considerably. And don't bother to say that you consider such
rules hokey. I know you do, and I disagree.

>>>That assumes you don't instead make tanks that can collapse back into the
>>>war ship to bring itself. 
> 
>>However, that particular ramification is also illegal by CT rules. You can't
>>make collapsible drop tanks.
> 
>Why?

Explain to me exactly how a jump drive works and I'll tell you.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:07:45 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

>>    I agree.  *weg*  Let the 3I whup some K'Kree tushie.  They do make
good
>>eatin'.
>
>Ok, if the 3I and the horses go eyeball to halter, what do the Solomani and
>Hivers do?  The Solomani might try and get involved in a land grab, but
>would the Hivers perhaps try to "mediate" a cease fire or settlement?


    Alright, the Hivers & the K'Kree have had a war in the past, correct?
And, the Hivers are master of manipulation, again, correct?  So it might go
down like this:
    1. The Hivers manipulate the 3I & the Solomani into developing a taste
for the K'Kree, but only for the short term.  As part of their attempt to
"tame" humans
    2. The 3I is attacked by the K'Kree as soon as they start to eat them.
    3. The SC attacke the K'Kree to gain some more land.
    4. An agent from the 3I, SC, or K'Kree finds evidence that they Hivers
started this.and then releases this to the other two sides.
    5. A cease-fire is called & reps meet at a neutral world to discuss this
information
    6. Then the 3I, SC, & K'Kree put aside their differences & pile on the
Hivers.
    7. The Hivers are majorly hurt by this attack.
    8. It is the end of the Hivers as we know them.

>This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info on
>the cattle ships.


    Correct, but we do know that they are larger than normal, so a scout
would have to be at least 1,000 dt. in size, IMHO.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:07:00 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> >    I agree.  *weg*  Let the 3I whup some K'Kree tushie.  They do make
> >    good eatin'.
> 
> Ok, if the 3I and the horses go eyeball to halter, what do the Solomani
> and Hivers do?  The Solomani might try and get involved in a land grab,
> but would the Hivers perhaps try to "mediate" a cease fire or settlement?
> 
> This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info
> on the cattle ships.

Needless to say, the Vargr would side with the Imperium in this one.
The Hivers might just sit back and watch, though -- I can't see them
getting involved.

Mind you, this K'kree-as-meat thread did give me an idea for a real
adventure seed: the players investigate (for whatever reason) an 
operation in a human client state between Imperial and K'kree space,
where really rich decadent types can pay a large sum of money to
feast on K'kree, even "meeting the meat" before hand. The thing is, 
it's a scam -- what they wind up eating is good old-fashioned Terran 
cow, but they *think* they're eating K'kree... meanwhile, the people 
running the scam are making themselves a small fortune, perhaps with a 
percentage going to the K'kree family who is participating as the 
"dish of the day"... Of course, the players don't know it's a scam 
beforehand...


      Glenn St-Germain | Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
glenn@powersurfr.com  |  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/
    "I don't want a Rolls Royce. A computer will do."
                         -- Nash the Slash

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:13:29 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Glenn St-Germain <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

<< Needless to say, the Vargr would side with the Imperium in this one.
The Hivers might just sit back and watch, though -- I can't see them
getting involved.

Mind you, this K'kree-as-meat thread did give me an idea for a real
adventure seed: the players investigate (for whatever reason) an
operation in a human client state between Imperial and K'kree space,
where really rich decadent types can pay a large sum of money to
feast on K'kree, even "meeting the meat" before hand. The thing is,
it's a scam -- what they wind up eating is good old-fashioned Terran
cow, but they *think* they're eating K'kree... meanwhile, the people
running the scam are making themselves a small fortune, perhaps with a
percentage going to the K'kree family who is participating as the
"dish of the day"... Of course, the players don't know it's a scam
beforehand... >>

    Good idea, sounds like the Freshman, though.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:18:28 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> << Needless to say, the Vargr would side with the Imperium in this one.
> The Hivers might just sit back and watch, though -- I can't see them
> getting involved.
> 
> Mind you, this K'kree-as-meat thread did give me an idea for a real
> adventure seed: the players investigate (for whatever reason) an
> operation in a human client state between Imperial and K'kree space,
> where really rich decadent types can pay a large sum of money to
> feast on K'kree, even "meeting the meat" before hand. The thing is,
> it's a scam -- what they wind up eating is good old-fashioned Terran
> cow, but they *think* they're eating K'kree... meanwhile, the people
> running the scam are making themselves a small fortune, perhaps with a
> percentage going to the K'kree family who is participating as the "dish of
> the day"... Of course, the players don't know it's a scam beforehand... >>
> 
>     Good idea, sounds like the Freshman, though.

I freely admit, that movie *was* my inpiration for the above... :-D

- -- g


Glenn St-Germain % Edmonton AB % glenn@powersurfr.com 
     "With a bit of a mind flip, 
      You're into the time slip,
      And nothing can ever be the same."
      -- from "The Time Warp" (Rocky Horror Picture Show)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:15:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

>Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:53:26 +1200
>From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>

>>The problem is that there is no apparent reason why this
>>should be true.  If you can blow them away, you can pull them
>>inside.

>Except that when you blow them away they don't count towards your mass when
>determining jump range. TCS, p 13.

They wouldn't if you have collapsed them inside the the hull
(or maybe they have a section of the hull on the outside and
just collapse down against the ship.

The thing is that there are a about gazillion ways you could
design them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:23:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On...

Low tech states often have the problem of a classic catch 22.
The products they make are low value, so it is hard to make
a lot of money.  Meanwhile, the lack of money it is what is
making it hard to raise their TL (a non-trivial task when
you think about all the infrastructure involved).  In the
50's and 60's there were programs and great expectations
for Africa that never materialized.

In Traveller, they have an attitude that every world takes
care of themselves.  Unless you can pull some special deal,
there isn't anything like development funds.

I have friends who do field trips to 3rd world countries for
research.  They say it is depressing that so many development
programs they get, or make for themselves, are undercut by
local power plays.  (Big fish in a little pond and all that).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #465
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 18 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 466



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #463
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Meson Guns
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Icelandic Names
Re: Icelandic Names
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Icelandic Names
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Failed Societies
Selling
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:29:39 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:26:16 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

>The word "normal" might be a bit provocative

Well, I think there is a little bit of people wanting "their" version
to be annointed the "real" one...

>, but G:T _is_ the new kid on
>the block. Four versions of Traveller use "TL" to mean the same thing, G:T
>is the only version that's different.

Yeah, but, since it is in production, a lot of people are using
it and it gets a lot of traffic.

>I use GTL for GURPS Tech Level, TL for Traveller tech level. Saves having
>to change 20+ years of material.
>
>To a newcomer this probably won't matter as much, except that they might
>get confused when checking the archives.

Well, that the point isn't it?  A standard is suppose to make
things clear.  But unless you know if a person is "on board"
for the "standard" then you can't really know what they mean
by "TL".  OTOH, GTL and TTL is always clear.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:31:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #463

>- - Someone on the TML pointed out that after a week in jump, if it
>  wasn't black then there was a problem with heat build-up.

>4) Jumpspace looks ...
>   a) Gray
>   b) TV snow
>   c) Black
>   d) None of the above

"Close your eyes.  That is what jumpspace looks like, except
without all the blackness".
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:37:02 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

<< >     Good idea, sounds like the Freshman, though.

I freely admit, that movie *was* my inpiration for the above... :-D

- -- g

Glenn St-Germain % Edmonton AB % glenn@powersurfr.com  >>

    Figured, great film.  *weg*

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:44:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:56:09 -0700, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
>>I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
>>would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
>>eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
>>you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
>>lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.

>    Let me see, when I pull off a steak the cow is dead.  But, if a cow
>walked up & talked to me, I would have to say, "Amber, git me my shooting
>iron.".

If you had killed a cow after arguing with it over
a bar bill, would you be all that eager to eat it?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:41:13 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

>I've emailed Paul, but haven't heard back.  I know he was waiting to get
covers back,
>but thought that he was looking for sometime in April to ship them.

I've emailed several times and have still not recived a response.

Heck, I didn't even receive a response when I submitted a preliminary draft
for inclusion in one of the books way back last year.

Still, I'm loathe to start siccing the U.S Post Office onto him yet.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:46:15 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

>>>  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have
power-mad
>>>sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)
>>
>>Me, I'd rather have Mrs. DiGriz.
>
>Yikes!  You are a brave soul!

Well, I reckon it's better to have her on my side than on the other guy's
:-)

>BTW, is that before or after the psyco-surgery?

Damn, I don't remember that bit, what's the difference ?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:54:50 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

Sat, 17 Apr 99 22:54:39 -0500, "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>

>On 04/17/99 at 04:56 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:
>
>>Is the point really whether the ships can find the guns?  A planetary
>>site is limited by volume and mass constraints like those on a ship.
>>They are likely to have a larger range.  The difficulty will be
>>getting in close enough to hit them.
>
>Yes, I picture the meson cannon being like the shore batteries
>around harbors during the 18th century.  Shore based guns had a
>greater range than ship based cannon, not a *lot* longer range, but
>enough to make a real difference.  I can't remember a case of
>successful assault by sea on a well defended harbor that didn't
>depend on guile and subterfuge.
>
>Of course, if you have a large enough fleet and are willing to get
>to chewed up then you might be able to overwhelm a planet's
>defenses.  That might be the only thing that works really well
>defended planets.

I sort of pictured them being a lot bigger than ship borne
ones (volume wise, I don't know how that scales with range).
I woundered if one solution wasn't to steadily jump in
components for a similarly large spaced platform and
assemble one (more?) in orbit.  That gets to the question,
how big are the ones on the planet?  How long does it take
to the parts, and assemble, one that is just as big in
orbit?  Why not build one bigger?  If you can build a bigger
one in orbit, why didn't they stick a bigger one on the planet?

The answer is probably that the one on the planet is limited
by expense.  If your enemy has invested in a bigger one that
he can bring in (and is willing to invest the time an reasources
to do so) then you have to resort to hiding the location of
yours.  If he doesn't have one like that, then he has to do
think like try and take out sensors, try a massed assault, etc.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:01:43 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

>>    Let me see, when I pull off a steak the cow is dead.  But, if a cow
>>walked up & talked to me, I would have to say, "Amber, git me my shooting
>>iron.".
>
>If you had killed a cow after arguing with it over
>a bar bill, would you be all that eager to eat it?


    Yes, I hate cows that much & would never drink with one.  *weg*

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:03:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:56:25 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>That fact is that if it was presented to me "Oh, most things have always
>>gone by drop tanks" that _would_ be a problem for me.

>Me too. But "Oh, we're in the process of adapting to this new idea" works
>just fine for me.

Well, this is where we "traditionally" disagree.  I do think
that they can be made to work if you make them a brand new
technology and follow through with it.  I just think (and I
suspect that most would to) that it would make it too much
like a B5 setting and having to spend all the material on
the new era on travel would detract from more interesting
things.

>>>Drop tank service will be between pairs of worlds with a lot of trade. It
>>>won't be between worlds with lots of ships and worlds with few.
>>
>>I don't agree. There isn't any reason to expect them to be that expensive.

>That's what you think. You MAY even be right (although I don't think you
>are). But until you present me with some hard figures, I'm not terribly
>impressed with what is, after all, merely an unsupported assumption on
>your part.

The description is that you just had to feed the energy into
the capacitor and then get away.  If that is true, a number of
simple designs are going to work just fine.

>>If you get at least a few ships a day, it will be reasonable to have drop
>>tank service.

>Over 50% of worlds in the Traveller Universe has a population of less than
>100,000. What makes you think they would be visited by a couple of ships
>per day? Moreover, it would have to be a couple of the same model of ship
>per day (since there's no reason to suppose that drop tanks that fits one
>model would fit any other models, not even of the same displacement, and
>most certainly not of different tonnages.

There is absolutely no reason for that to be true.  The only
standard you would have to worry about is the pipe fitting,
which is not a problem.

>I'd be extremely surprised if that price isn't dependent on the space tugs
>being occupied all the time.

Which gets back to the traffic.  Unless you only get a few ships
a week, it works out OK, I'll have to work through some numbers
but it won't be for a week or so (big proposal is due).

>>>However, that particular ramification is also illegal by CT rules. You can't
>>>make collapsible drop tanks.
>>
>>Why?
>
>Explain to me exactly how a jump drive works and I'll tell you.

Well, the drop tanks are explained.  You burn the fuel out
of them and then get away from them.  If that is true, then
you can use the same time to collapse them instead.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:29:47 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

At 06:41 PM 4/18/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>I've emailed Paul, but haven't heard back.  I know he was waiting to get
>covers back,
>>but thought that he was looking for sometime in April to ship them.
>
>I've emailed several times and have still not recived a response.
>
>Heck, I didn't even receive a response when I submitted a preliminary draft
>for inclusion in one of the books way back last year.
>
>Still, I'm loathe to start siccing the U.S Post Office onto him yet.

Actually, I posted an update to the TML last month during the last 'Cliff'
feeding frenzy. Again, as I stated in the last update, I'm now refraining
from setting a firm date, and yes, I am not answering private emails any
longer. That easily eats up 45 minutes or more every day (at least). In
addition to the time consumed, there is nothing new to add to what was
already posted in the last update.

Beyond what I said in that update, I can only add that I am working on the
books intermittently - and this will be the case until my spring/summer
semesters are wrapped up in early July. After that I will have nearly two
months free time (no study or work) and will be making the final push to
finish off the project. 


Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 04:11:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 

> Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:56:09 -0700, "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
> >>I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
> >>would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
> >>eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
> >>you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
> >>lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.
> 
> >    Let me see, when I pull off a steak the cow is dead.  But, if a cow
> >walked up & talked to me, I would have to say, "Amber, git me my shooting
> >iron.".
> 
> If you had killed a cow after arguing with it over
> a bar bill, would you be all that eager to eat it?

Depends on what we'd been drinking that night.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:34:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

"Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> wrote:
>    Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see it
>now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg*  And
>they could also serve Hiver.  Think about the money making potential.

Because the K'Kree would decide it was necessary to exterminate humaniti if
they found out. Not just the Imperium, but all the other human empires. And
it would be total war, without conventions, making the Vilani look tame.

Would make a good opportunity to eliminate them, though.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:54:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> wrote:
>This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info on
>the cattle ships.

There are design rules in the K'Kree AM by GDW - ISTR that the team working
on the GT version said it will have design rules too.

HG Design sequence - Notes from AM2.
- --------------------

*Most common configurations for ship hulls are spheres or flattened
spheres. Flattened spheres are the racial preference.

'Independence Day style' ;-)

*Turret 'weights' are doubled to account for remote handling equipment.

Cost remains the same. This is an interesting entry as although the
external turrets are the same size or smaller, the overall volume is
increased to cover the handling. I suggest the module volume and mass be
doubled but area remain the same.

*Crew numbers should be doubled.

Herd mentality. Not as good at handling stress/loneliness as humans

*Quarters are 48dT each with 1MCr per stateroom.
Big increase here. AM2 is kind of vague on this - I read it as each K'Kree
would want 48dt! This makes K'Kree ships enormous.

*Double occupancy is possible but requires special skill/training.
The enclosure skill.

*Low berths are not fitted or used by K'Kree.

Claustrophobia.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 02:30:29 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction


>>    Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
it
>>now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg*
And
>>they could also serve Hiver.  Think about the money making potential.
>Because the K'Kree would decide it was necessary to exterminate humaniti if
>they found out. Not just the Imperium, but all the other human empires. And
>it would be total war, without conventions, making the Vilani look tame.


    For years, they have been looking for an excuse to do so.  They are just
waiting for a chance to kill off all of the other races, are they not?

>Would make a good opportunity to eliminate them, though.


    Yes, it would.

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist & Old Gaming Fart
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:55:23 -0700
From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> >Because the K'Kree would decide it was necessary to exterminate humaniti
> >if they found out. Not just the Imperium, but all the other human
> >empires. And it would be total war, without conventions, making the
> >Vilani look tame.
> 
>    For years, they have been looking for an excuse to do so.  They are
>    just waiting for a chance to kill off all of the other races, are they not?

The K'Kree don't want to kill off all the other races -- just the ones 
that eat meat.

Still, if the K'Kree decided to wage a jihad against humaniti, they'd 
eventually lose. Especially since we could count on the support of the 
Vargr, and possibly the Hivers. (The Hivers would likely not involve 
themselves in a border war, but they would intervene in a war of 
genocide.)
 
- -- g


Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton AB  glenn@powersurfr.com
       http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn/
"I pray for the strength to change the things I can,
 The inability to accept the things I can't,
 And the incapacity to tell the difference."
                                   -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:16:51 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Icelandic Names

>At 03:04 PM 4/17/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Does anyone out there speak Icelandic, or have ready access to an Icelandic
>>dictionary?
>>
>>I've been tinkering with a few Sword World ships for the next release of
>>101 Starships, and I need some decent names (my pocket Norsk-Engelsk
>>dictionary just isn't good enough).
>>
>>Any suggestions will be gratefully received.
>
>Hvao gera bu borf nafns fyrir?
>
>(What do you need names for?)

ROTFL

Perfect.  Could you please send me the names for all the ship classes in
all the Sword World navies? :-)

Seriously, as the Sword Worlds language is based on Icelandic, I wanted to
have some "authentic" names for ship classes, for an upcoming expansion to
101 Starships. Any mistakes you make can be attributed to linguistic drift,
so you can't escape now! :-)

FWIW, as soon as someone sends me GTL9 versions of the standard GT ship
modules I'll start designing the ships. If you wait for me to design the
modules myself it will take a lot longer, as Far Trader finally reached
Toronto yesterday.  (And, with impeccable timing, it did so just before
marks are due, forcing me to exercise self-control rather than diving in
immediately.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:08:20 -0400
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@radix.net>
Subject: Re: Icelandic Names

Howdy!

>Does anyone out there speak Icelandic, or have ready access to an Icelandic
>dictionary?
>
>I've been tinkering with a few Sword World ships for the next release of
>101 Starships, and I need some decent names (my pocket Norsk-Engelsk
>dictionary just isn't good enough).
>
>Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

What sorts of names are you looking for? One possibility is to use place
names (which you can get off a decent atlas). Another is to use personal
names. An excellent source for building blocks is a book called "The Old
Norse Name", by Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. Contact me privately for details.

yours,
Michael (semi-retired SCA herald who has a decent library of name books)

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:49:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 04:38 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Dudes, Dudettes.
>
>Who all is Here?

Me! Mee!!!


There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
of folks going to BayCon is right.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:12:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Icelandic Names

At 10:16 AM 4/18/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Perfect.  Could you please send me the names for all the ship classes in
>all the Sword World navies? :-)
>
>Seriously, as the Sword Worlds language is based on Icelandic, I wanted to
>have some "authentic" names for ship classes, for an upcoming expansion to
>101 Starships. Any mistakes you make can be attributed to linguistic drift,
>so you can't escape now! :-)

Some suggestions:

Hero: Hetja
Lightning: Elding
Endeavor: Reyna
Enterprise: Fyrirtaeki
Ghost: Draugur
High: Har
Abominable: Andstyggilegur
Black: Svartur

The should give you a clue as to where to start.  I got the information for
my sig from the Icelandic Consulate.  By the way it actually means:

Commander, Special Intelligence Section
Space Arm of the Confederation Army
Gram, Sword Worlds Confederation

"Yook out, Jarl!  It's ein Azhanti Harelding!!"
"Be calm Joos.. we are in the Svatur Dragur.. they can't see us."

<Boom>
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:41:07 -0700
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Evyn MacDude wrote:
> 
> Dudes, Dudettes.
> 
> Who all is Here?

Well, I'm in the south Bay area.  Why do you ask?  Are you interested 
in starting or joining a campaign?

Kristian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:42:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> 
>
> >BTW, is that before or after the psyco-surgery
> 
> Damn, I don't remember that bit, what's the difference ?

The surgery they did on her to turn her from a sociopathic sadistic murderess
into an ethical, only mildly sadistic agent. It's in the first of the Slippery
Jim novels, I believe. One of his first cases after being caught himself.
(damn, the memories are dim...gotta re-read it again!)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:13:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

alvin plummer wrote:
> 

> Moreover, matriarchal cultures are more a sign of
> failure than success: observe their rarity in history (an implicit
> sign of non-viability), and the poor operation of the
> only matriarchal culture I'm familiar with, the inner-city.

Actually, much of this has to do with the recording of western history more
than any thing else...there _have_ been successful, largely matriarchal
societies in the past, the Cretans for example. But history as it has been
primarily taught in the west has largely glossed that over. In a large number
of cultures, wealth and prestige has passed down the matriarchal side of the family.

Pointing to the inner city as an example of a matriachy is flawed at best,
disingenuous at worst. This 'society' is largely the construct, in the US at
least, of a combination of absurdly flawed (and eminently _pat_riarchal)
welfare laws requiring the _absence_ of an adult male in the household,
economic disintegration of the inner city caused by flight to the suburbs,
coupled with an extraordinarily high rate of adult male incarceration, thanks,
in the past few decades to a war on drugs, which though illegal have provided
one of the few economic opportunities in these areas.

ObTrav:

	Given the discussion that lead up to this, regarding 'failed' societies...how
prevalent IYTU's are things like Utopian experiments such as the Amana colony,
or The Great Leap Forward, or the War on Poverty, either gone right or gone
horribly wrong? Basically a bunch of like minded people get up and go found a
colony on their own world, staying true to their own beliefs.

These are staples of SF literature, particularly in many of the clear literary
ancestors of Traveller, but most of the adventures and campaigns I've read
mention such places only in passing.

Anyone make more extensive use of such? Examples we can stea^h^h^h study ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:08:57 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Selling

Well, I have the list tyoed up complete now.  if you would like a copy
of it then email me.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:51:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:

>Well, it depends: The only version available for sale (and as far as I can
>tell at most places, for rent) is the Director's Cut, which has the
>"correct" ending.

But the Director's cut only came out around '93 IIRC, which is around 10
years after the first print had achieved a 'cult' status.

>It's a wonder why the film became so popular. Scott
>fumbled the ball at several points (pay careful attention to the number of
>"skin-jobs" on the street, there's one unaccounted for). Then take a look at
>the scene where he retires the snake-dancer. It's all out of sequence. The
>studio dropped the ball by cutting the unicorn dream sequence, changing the
>ending and adding the completely inappropriate narration. Fortunately,
>thanks to WB I've gotten a chance to see the DC on the big screen ;^)

Me to. It went on limited release in the UK and I saw it on the big screen
in Southampton, then later on on a smaller screen in my University. The
detail and impact of it was amazing compared to the 4:3 ratio on the
version I previously had. Sadly, the first time I saw it I was mentally
repeating the voiceover...

>At any rate, though I can't defend it better, I still maintain that the core
>of the movie revolves around the humanity of the replicants, not the
>identity of various characters (as Dick's work does).

I agree. The film seems to be stressing that once the replicant's have
memories there is nothing to differentiate them from humans. Indeed, in
Rachel's case, there is nothing to distinguish her as a replicant until she
goes rogue and the Tyrell Corp reports her missing.

Being honest, I feel sorry for Batty, although horrified by his brutality.
But that is just an effect of the way he was made; the monster that
destroys Tyrell is created by him.

The other clue is the corporations motto ' More human than human'.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #466
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 18 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 467



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planetary Defense
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Failed Societies
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: high-tech versions of low-tech weapons
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Alien Languages
Re: Planetary Defense
Re: Subs and Sensors
New GT Hulls
New GT Engineering Modules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:39:14 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense

Douglas Glatz wrote:

>What happens if you run a Black Globe in an atmosphere?

No sunlight gets in. The biosphere dies.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:26:51 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

>>Well, it depends: The only version available for sale (and as far as I can
>>tell at most places, for rent) is the Director's Cut, which has the
>>"correct" ending.


Thankfully some of us have copies of the original.



 The
>>studio dropped the ball by cutting the unicorn dream sequence, changing
the
>>ending and adding the completely inappropriate narration.

Wrong, Scott added the narration. He wanted the studio to kill the picture
since they messed up the unicorn sequence and others.  He figured that the
voice over would make it unappealing, but the studio execs love it and Scott
was VERY unhappy.  His plan backfired on him.

>Being honest, I feel sorry for Batty, although horrified by his brutality.


Batty inspired many folks. Ann Rice has often said that Batty was a model
for the Vampire Lestat.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:50:06 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

In a message dated 4/18/99 2:15:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:

<< 
 Actually, much of this has to do with the recording of western history more
 than any thing else...there _have_ been successful, largely matriarchal
 societies in the past, the Cretans for example. But history as it has been
 primarily taught in the west has largely glossed that over. In a large number
 of cultures, wealth and prestige has passed down the matriarchal side of the 
family.
  >>

	There is very little real reason to believe that the Cretans were 
matriarchal.  There is  not enough evidence to support that assumption, since 
their indigenous language remains unreadable, and their later Linear B 
wrintings in Greek show a typical Greek patriarchy.   While it is possible 
they were matriarchal, there's no real evidence to support it.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:03:24 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Glenn St-Germain <glenn@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction


<< > >Because the K'Kree would decide it was necessary to exterminate
humaniti
> >if they found out. Not just the Imperium, but all the other human
> >empires. And it would be total war, without conventions, making the
> >Vilani look tame.
>
>    For years, they have been looking for an excuse to do so.  They are
>    just waiting for a chance to kill off all of the other races, are they
not?

The K'Kree don't want to kill off all the other races -- just the ones
that eat meat. >>

    Then that would be Humanit, Vargr, Aslan, Droyne, & about ever minor
race that I can see.

<< Still, if the K'Kree decided to wage a jihad against humaniti, they'd
eventually lose. Especially since we could count on the support of the
Vargr, and possibly the Hivers. (The Hivers would likely not involve
themselves in a border war, but they would intervene in a war of
genocide.) >>

    Also this might bring the Zhos, the Sols, the Imps, & the Vargr into one
empire.  Remember these are the three races that have a single BG in common,
they are all from Earth.  And, while they may fight amoungst themselves they
are family, in a way.  And, no one messes with family.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:27:10
From: Frank Wallen <mrdim@Excell.Net>
Subject: Re: high-tech versions of low-tech weapons

>Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:52:15 -0700
>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: high-tech versions of low-tech weapons
>
>>Wasn't there some discussion months ago about Axe-wielders in Battledress
>>as a boarding party?
>
>This is a recurring discussion on the TML (and I'm not saying that like
>it's a bad thing).  
>
>In my Traveller universe, when PCs get "blade" as a mustering out
>benefit from the Imperial Navy or Marines, they normally get a
>functional (as opposed to purely decorative) sword or cutlass,
>respectively, but it's of TL 14 or 15 manufacture and designed for blade
>combat at that tech level.  
>
>So while it may be so dense that, turned off, it can't be picked up by
>someone not wearing battle dress, it also has an integral gravitic unit
>that gives it a weight that can be managed by a person of normal
>strength.  (The battery powering the grav unit may not last very long,
>so there's some danger of a hernia.)  
>
>Its edge may be so sharp that it can cut through some armor.  Its blade
>may be so strong that it can support the weight of its owner.  
>
>We already see big differences between blade weapons manufactured today
>versus in medieval times.  Modern blades are made of harder alloys that
>don't corrode and don't get dinged up as easily in use.  Modern blades
>are also not designed for fighting against medieval armor because modern
>blade combat is not between armored opponents -- but that's changing, as
>soldiers tend to wear flak jackets and helmets and will probably wear
>even more protective gear as it becomes lighter and less expensive.  If
>one of the makers of combat knives did decide to make broadswords to
>modern standards, the modern broadsword would likely get through armor
>made at medieval standards.  
>
>- --Glenn

My take on blades is slightly different, though quite similar. I don't have
any "powered" bladed weapons, but they are definately high tech,
constructed by advanced methods with advanced materials. A TL13 Broadsword
in MTU, for example (in MT-based rules), has a Pen 11 and Dam 4, which is
better than a number of firearms! However, one must face one's enemy for
the attack. Even a TL13 Foil has a Pen 6 and Dam 2. I found that most
players prefer firearms, with good reason, really, but a good blade comes
in very handy, especially on high law level worlds. When the players began
employing these weapons in conjunction with their firearms, it made for
some dramatic scenes and swashbuckling excitement!

*********************************************************************
* Frank Wallen                 * 'In Paris they simply stared when  *
* (mailto:mrdim@excell.net)    * I spoke to them in French; I never *
* Reft Sector Islands at:      * did succeed in making those idiots *
* http://www.excell.net/mrdim/ * understand their language.'        *
*                              *            - Mark Twain            *
*********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:40:43 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 18 April 1999 05:22
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks


<snippety snip>
>
>And a set of drop tanks that fit a Beowulf. Furthermore, the official
rules
>state that drop tanks are one-use-only. The reason why drop tanks are
a
>problem at all is that we have decided that it is reasonable to
assume that
>it would be possible to design drop tanks that can be reused. But
that
>dosen't mean we have to say that they can be _freely_ reused. If we
>compromise on a requirement that drop tanks need an overhaul before
they
>can be reused, we introduce a limiting factor that will increas the
cost
>of using them considerably.

as an example of DT's that need overhauling think of the Shuttle
Boosters (I know these are solid fuel rockets, but they are
essentially akin to a drop tank with an integral engine....sort of...
<g>)

as to Trav DT's, they would need checking for cracks after each drop,
replacement of explosive bolts, checking fuel outflow pipe seals
(failed O-rings are nasty :( ...  ) etc.

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:48:11 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 18 April 1999 05:51
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction


>Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:56:09 -0700, "Legate Legion"
<legate@futureone.com>

<snip>

>>>Similarly, having a cow come up and
>>>lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.
>
>>    Let me see, when I pull off a steak the cow is dead.  But, if a
cow
>>walked up & talked to me, I would have to say, "Amber, git me my
shooting
>>iron.".
>
>If you had killed a cow after arguing with it over
>a bar bill, would you be all that eager to eat it?
>______________________________


ever heard of steak and ale pie, or beef in beer...
<homer>
mmmmm.....beef in beer.....
</homer>

just think of it as pre-marinated K'Kree.

regards

Matt  (English Epicurean & Glutton)

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:53:57 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 18 April 1999 07:16
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.


>
>
>>>>  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have
>power-mad
>>>>sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)
>>>
>>>Me, I'd rather have Mrs. DiGriz.
>>
>>Yikes!  You are a brave soul!
>
>Well, I reckon it's better to have her on my side than on the other
guy's
>:-)
>
>>BTW, is that before or after the psyco-surgery?
>
>Damn, I don't remember that bit, what's the difference ?
>


pre-op: Hard as nails, bad-ass momma w/o conscience

post-op: Hard as nails, bad-ass momma (literally) with a *tad* of
conscience <g>

regards

Matt Bolivar DiGriz :)

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:02:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>Still, I'm loathe to start siccing the U.S Post Office onto him yet.

All I can say in Paul's defense is that he delivered the first 'pirates'
supplement promptly and correctly. From my previous experience of dealing
with him he seems honest. I suspect real life is intervening...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:14:05 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

OUCH!
<grinning madly>

Jesse




>Gridlore Technologies presents the 20mm Individual Anti-Armor Weapon
>
>Malf      Type  Damage   SS  Acc  1/2D   Max   Wt  RoF  ST  Rcl  Cost
>Ver(Crit)  Cr  6dx24(5)  12  14   1500  7000  7.5  1NR  10  -2  Cr1250
>
>The 20mmIAAW is a collapsing railgun firing a depleted uranium dart.  The
>entire weapon is a little over 30cm in length, and 5cm wide.  It includes a
>laser sight, and can mount a scope or HUD targeting link.
>
>The weapon is disposable, burning out it's batteries and rail after one
>shot.  Usual practise is to issue the weapon as an unit of ammo, one to
>each soldier.
>
>The weapon as designed is available at GTL 10.
>
>Average damage for the weapon is 504 points.  With the armor divisor,
>effective armor penetration is 2520 points of armor.  For example, a IAAW
>hitting a suit of Scout/Commando BD would do: (Armor 1200/5 = 240) 264
>points of damage to the suit and it's occupant.  It is imporatant to note
>that you can buy 304 of these weapons for every suit of S/C Battledress...
>
>Note:  This weapon is as large as is it is only to avoid Acc and SS
>penalties.  It could easily be made into a pistol sized weapon.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
>                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:17:47 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

I'm in the San Jose area (work SJ, live Milpitas).
Jesse
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact" 




>Dudes, Dudettes.
>
>Who all is Here?
>
>--
>Evyn...
>One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:57:47 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

Mildy??? It certainly is a long time since you read any Rat!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 18 April 1999 18:57
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.


>Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>>
>>
>> >BTW, is that before or after the psyco-surgery
>>
>> Damn, I don't remember that bit, what's the difference ?
>
>The surgery they did on her to turn her from a sociopathic sadistic
murderess
>into an ethical, only mildly sadistic agent. It's in the first of the
Slippery
>Jim novels, I believe. One of his first cases after being caught himself.
>(damn, the memories are dim...gotta re-read it again!)
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:21:39 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Todd (Tascelt@aol.com) is actually out of Stockton, but he grew up in the SJ
area and still goes to BayCon religiously like me :)  BTW, I should have
prints available for sale at the art show.  I'm looking into 11 x 14 or
bigger with any luck.
Jesse


>At 04:38 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Dudes, Dudettes.
>>
>>Who all is Here?
>
>Me! Mee!!!
>
>
>There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
>of folks going to BayCon is right.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:23:53 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

>ever heard of steak and ale pie, or beef in beer...
><homer>
>mmmmm.....beef in beer.....
></homer>


    Which Homer?

    <homer j. simpson>  bbbbbbbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr </homer j.
simpson>

>just think of it as pre-marinated K'Kree.


    <homer j. simpson> pre-marinated K'Kree.  ghaaaaaaaaagggggg. </homer j.
simpson>

>regards
>Matt  (English Epicurean & Glutton)


    Want to join the 3I Epicurean Club?  Where we eat only the finest foods
in the galaxy?

Legate Legion,  Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:24:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Alien Languages

Try the following links if you're interested in alien languages (thanks to
CJ Cherryh's site..)

http://randyb.byu.edu/alioth/hanbab.html

http://www.cherryh.com/latin_language.htm

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:33:33 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense

At 02:37 PM 4/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>If a Black Globe generator small enough to fit on a starship
(albeit, a
>capital warship) can be developed at TL 15, when are they first
introduced
>into Planetary Defense?  I mean, if it takes an enclosure the size
of a
>small building, and requires a power plant capable of running a
small city,
>but it protects your metropolotin areas (or your planetary defense
sites),
>wouldn't it be deployed?

	You can't have a black globe touching matter ... and a sphere around
a city would cut through quite a bit of ground.

>Jerry Pournelle does a really good job of describing how the shapes
of
>cities are affected by the physics of his 'Langston Field' - a very
similar
>device.
>
>What happens if you run a Black Globe in an atmosphere?

	It immediately absorbs all the kinetic energy from the air molecules
touching it, and very quickly goes KABLOOIE.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:39:03 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

>> >Can someone explain how "displacement detection" works? I can see it
>> >working on a moving sub, but what about a stationary or creeping one?
>> 
>> Rumour has it that you can detect, with suitable gear, the `lump' in the
>> ocean.
>
>I'm asking for more detail on this. It seems to me that a stopped 
>sub won't make any more of a lump than the equivalent mass/volume 
>of water. Also, how shallow does the sub have to be running, to be 
>detected this way? 

As I said earlier, this was a rumoured detection method from the press.
It may or may not work - personally, I can't see detection of water hump
as tenable except under shallow water conditions. However, there are
plenty of other methods available to detect a sub in the far future.
Densiometer and Neutrino scans? What about the magnetic signature? TL8
MAD (Magnetic anomaly detection) isn't good enough to be used for
searching; but what of the future? A good study in of the (open)
literature should show a number of technologies that would be good for
detecting subs.

>> Sub's don't do stopped very well, as I mentioned in a previous
>> post.
>
>5 knot creep, then. Or, to turn your own point against 
>you, an interstellar-tech sub shouldn't have any problem at 
>all using thrusters to hold still. That same sub can also run
>insanely deep. At interstellar tech, by the way, a sub is 
>equivalent to an SDB with < 1G maneuver drive, with fuel tanks 
>expanded in volume until the average density of the ship matches 
>the density of the water it's sitting in. 

If you use thrusters to hover, you'll be noisy - unless you've come up
with a way of moving water through pipes and then into water flowing a
different direction without making noise.

Depth doesn't seem to be a problem to meson weapons.

>(Didn't someone just go through this tech escalation thing
>when trying to discuss atmospheric versus aerospace versus
>space fighters? :)

Dunno - I stopped reading that thread after it became `edgy.'

>> >>Or one that does 40 knots?
>> >
>> >A sub doing 40 knots has already been detected and shot at.
>> 
>> Today, yes - for noise reasons. At TL15?
>
>Tomorrow, yes, to avoid the rumored "displacement detection".
>Once you have a silent propulsion system, how fast can you 
>run an elongated teardrop shape that big through water 
>without creating an audible rush? That would be the upper 
>limit on stealthy sub maneuvering. 

Well, any speed will make *some* noise. Above the background in a quiet
environment? hard to say. About 50kts is the rule of thumb limit for
hydrodynamic drag on a modern hull form, unless you are using some
insanely powerful drive (like, say, thrusters ;).

Actually, thrusters would be good news - reactionless, so no noise from
the end drive; and no rotating machinery to vibrate the hull.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:06:46 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: New GT Hulls

Hulls and Armour

The costs presented in GURPS Traveller hold for hulls at other tech levels.
Lower tech hulls mass more than high tech hulls: multiply the GTL12 mass by
the multiplier on the following table.

Tech Level	Mass Multiplier	DR
8	x 4	8000
9	x 3	13333
10	x 2	20000
11	x 1.5	33333
12	x 1	50000
13	x 1	80000

Armour gets more effective as tech level increases. Calculate armour as
explained in the GURPS Traveller rules, but use the DR values from the
above table.


Assuming I've understood VE2 correctly, the above rules expansion should be
correct. Can someone please double-check my numbers?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:15:41 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: New GT Engineering Modules

Engineering Modules

Fusion is introduced at GTL9, and is very bulky. A GTL9 engineering module
has the following stats:

Volume: 4 spaces
Mass: 12.5 stons
Cost: 5 MCr

Fusion plants as GTL11 and above are identical, thus the values given for
the GTL12 module apply for GTL11 and GTL13 as well.


My calculations for the GTL9 module:

The module consists of the 'base' fusion plant, including the 'fusion core'
cost, plus a six-person airlock and armoured docking tube.

Base mass of PP: 20000 lb
Airlock: 3000 lb
Docking tube: 2000 lb
Total: 25000 lb (12.5 stons)

Volume of PP: 400 cf
Long term access (x4) raise this to 1600 cf
Airlock: 300 cf
Docking tube: 40 cf
Total: 1940 cf (4 spaces)

Base cost of PP: 4 MCr
Cost of 'fusion core': 1 MCr
Airlock: 0.006 MCr
Docking tube: 0.003 MCr
Total: 5.009 MCr (5 MCr)

Could someone please check my calculations?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #467
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 468



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Live without trade?
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade
Re: Live without trade?
Re: Economies of Scale & Trade
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Economics of drop tanks 
1) Re: That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches 2) Imperial Varient: Dust and Ashes
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Failed Societies
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
CIN entry 15/II/1203
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:59:06 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Live without trade?

Dear Folks -

Gregory Wall said:
>But look at Australia, a huge
>place which is mostly empty (I once heard in the 70's the analogy of one
US
>city [N.Y.?] was almost the entire population of Australia... give or
take).

For those interested, the most recent figures on the Australian Bureau of
Statistics website (http://www.abs.gov.au/) say that Australia's population
in 1997 was 18,532,200.

The line I heard from a tourist promo made for the US market was: "A
country the size of the USA, with the population of New York".

Actually, I *think* it's more like "the population of _Manhattan Island_,
during a weekday lunchtime".

Anyone know the current population of New York City?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 99 19:03:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

On 04/18/99 at 09:02 PM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:

>"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>>Still, I'm loathe to start siccing the U.S Post Office onto him yet.

>All I can say in Paul's defense is that he delivered the first
>'pirates' supplement promptly and correctly. From my previous
>experience of dealing with him he seems honest. I suspect real life
>is intervening...

I suspect that the task turned out to be a couple orders of
magnitude harder than Paul thought, too.  And, of course, real life
probably *is* intervening.  ;->

Yes, Paul is later in delivery than he anticipated, but when hasn't
that been the case in publishing.  I'm just as anxious for Marc to
get T5 finished and published.  

In both cases, however, it's better for them, and for us, for them
to take their time and get the jobs done right.  Right?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:09:29 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

>There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
>of folks going to BayCon is right.

I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
Bunnies and Burrows.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:05:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade

Dear Folks -

Jim said:
>Thus, just as a TL-7 society requires
>many orders of magnitude more skills than a TL-0 society, so too will a
TL-
>15 society require many orders of magnitude more skills than a TL-7
society.

Interesting - I hadn't considered this idea before. This may be a
justification of the plethora of highly specialised skills in games such as
GURPS and Rolemaster.

[Still doesn't help with game balance or playability, tho'.  ;-) ]
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:11:44 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Live without trade?

More like a country with the population of Texas. Give or take a roo or two.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:37:18 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Economies of Scale & Trade

Dear Folks -

Further to Bruce's economist post, here's one vaguely remembered from an
old BC cartoon:

Ant Son: "Dad, what are economists?"
Ant Father: "Son, economists are a bunch of mathematical wizards, schooled
in the monetary science of a particular country, who, when the government
starts to go down the monetary pipe, band together and... _disagree_ with
one another".

;-)

[with apologies to Jim, Carlos, and Eris, and... - well, it seems that
everyone here is an economist  ;-)  ]

Jim said:
>The example I used is how we tend to teach it to non-major
>undergraduates.  It seemed like the appropriate level for this audience as
>well.

It also seems appropriate for the level of a _game_, as well. Oh, I can
understand Carlos being upset about simplifications that are applied in an
area he knows something about - just as most of us would roll our eyes when
someone on TV hacks into Cheyenne Mountain with chewing gum, a beeper and a
phone line... (oh, and I forgot the gaffer tape... ;-)

At some point, the authors of ANY of the Trav books have to make a decision
to stop at a particular level of abstraction, simply in order to get
something ready for publication NOW (and not next year). Our only concern
should be that they actually have enough time to do things at least
reasonably properly - that is, checked against reality & existing Trav
canon, playtested properly, spellchecked/proofread, and run past Marc or
Loren. Otherwise you have some of IG's problems, again. I still laugh at
the - unnecessary - transporter in "Missions of State", and the FTL commo
in JTAS 26...

What I would suggest is that Jim and the other authors get together and
publish a Pyramid article dealing with drop tanks and their effect on G:T,
specifically (remembering that Ian's design is FF&Sv2, not GURPS).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:06:27 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

I'm not picking on you specifically, but yours are the only posts I can find 
to respond to this with.  ;-)

> >Except that when you blow them away they don't count towards your mass when
> >determining jump range. TCS, p 13.
> 
> They wouldn't if you have collapsed them inside the the hull
> (or maybe they have a section of the hull on the outside and
> just collapse down against the ship.
> 
> The thing is that there are a about gazillion ways you could
> design them.

Ok, design us some.  :-)  Then design us a jump drive that they'll work with.

I said a long while back (as this thread goes <g>) that they're only 
"dooming" to a certain model of jump drive (one that is far from being 
established by canon).  This completely ignores the economic issue.  ;-) 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:06:25 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Planetary Defense--Meson Guns

> >Well, the entire meson gun physics is gobbledygook, because decay doesn't
> >behave like that (half-life X means that half of all particles will decay 
by
> >time X, not that all the particles suddenly decay at time X).
> 
> Yeah.  I think GT should make the explination that the mesons
> have been "contrived to decay at a certain time".

I rather like the idea that the "Meson" isn't an actual meson but some kind 
of particle that will be discovered in the future.  I saw this in 
rec.games.frp.gurps:

<<Subject: Re: G: Traveller thrusters
From: scott@eviews.com (Scott Ellsworth)
Date: 12/18/98 11:55 AM PST
Message-id: <75ebvh$h7m@journal.concentric.net>

In article <75bk5r$4p6$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, ajackson@iii.com wrote:
..
>Meson weaponry involves a misunderstanding of how radioactive decay works,
>and is flatly impossible as described.

I explained this one early on for my games.  My second Traveller group
was composed almost entirely of physicists, engineers, and so on.  We
were playing the Traveller adventure, where the principle of the Meson
gun is a major exhibit in a museum the players visit.  Of course, one
of the players says "Say, neophyte physics major, how do these things
work, anyway?"

I trotted out the usual explanation.  I had always chalked it up to
Traveller Magic, and let it go, but this group wanted a better 
explanation.

Me: "Meson guns fire a beam that detonates inside a target, ignoring
armor.  Accelerators use time dilation to time the decay for maximum
damage.  they can be screened against."

Them:  "But mesons do interact with matter!  And the things that do
not, such as neutrinos do not decay."

Me: "These Meson particles have two states.  One state interpentrates
normal matter without interaction a la Hogan's Genesis Machine.  The
other state decays into the usual shower of secondary radiation in
femtoseconds.  The state transition happens a precise time after
generation.

Them: "I have not heard of _any_ particle like that."

(GM thinks fast...)

Me:"You are in a museum with a whole display dedicated to them.  There
is a section on the history and discovery of them."

Them: "We check it out."

Me: "You notice that the Meson particle is always capitalized where
mentioned, unlike the usual protons, electrons, and so forth..."

Them: "Who came up with these things?"

Me:"A Solomani named Robert T. Meson.  Brilliant inventor, but totally
untrained in particle physics.  It is an accident of history that when
he discovered a particle which decayed after an exact time, in its own
local frame of reference, he named it after himself."

Them: "And nobody else noticed the existence of the original meson?"

Me: "Bob Meson proposed his death ray weapon to the Solomani Navy at a
time when they were in a war with the Vilani.  The admiral that heard
his pitch was well aware that small m mesons would be utterly useless
for a weapon, and thought that this would distract the enemy spies,
and perhaps cause all sorts of research to go the wrong way."

Them:  "So why is it still called a Meson gun, 1100 years after an
1800 year dark age 300 years after they were discovered by someone
a hundred parsecs away."

Me: "Tradition."

Them:  "No - what is the real reason?"

Me: "The R. T. Meson noncharitable trust still owns the copyrights on
non military uses, which he licenced to virtually every megacorp.
Even though he has long since died, the megacorporations of the
Imperium cannot fundementally alter the sales terms until his heirs
are either found or proven dead."

Them:  "We claim to be the Hiers to the Meson Fortune!"

Scott

Scott Ellsworth          scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
>>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:16:59 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

At 06:56 AM 4/18/1999 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

<Snip>

>And a set of drop tanks that fit a Beowulf. Furthermore, the official rules
>state that drop tanks are one-use-only. The reason why drop tanks are a
>problem at all is that we have decided that it is reasonable to assume that
>it would be possible to design drop tanks that can be reused. But that
>dosen't mean we have to say that they can be _freely_ reused. If we
>compromise on a requirement that drop tanks need an overhaul before they
>can be reused, we introduce a limiting factor that will increas the cost
>of using them considerably. And don't bother to say that you consider such
>rules hokey. I know you do, and I disagree.

<Snip>

Lets not forget the Gazelle Close Escort.  It was designed to require drop
tanks to get its jump 5, when dropped.  Until they were replaced it had
fuel only for a jump 2.  If the tanks were retained, it has a jump 4
capability due to the extra volume.

It does use the fuel right from the drop tanks to power the jump drive.
The Gazelle was designed in CT or HG and had an internal 81 ton fuel tank
with 100 ton drop tanks.  When making a jump 5 (dropping the tanks) it
required 150 tons of fuel.  When retaining the tanks and making a jump 4 it
used 160 tons of fuel.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
     and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                         -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:37:26 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 

> >> Well, I think I have.  I think that presenting thing like
> >
> >Except you haven't.  "Think" is hardly enough.
> 
> Well, I'm willing let those who read this make up their own
> minds.  As the whether I have suceeded, you are hardly an
> objective view point.

Pot, Kettle?  Give some objective analysis that doesn't "support" your 
preconceived conclusions and you might even sway me.  I don't think you have 
anything but strawmen up your sleeves, though I would be glad to see 
otherwise.  You have some assumptions that COULD actually be valid (if the 
economics rules were altered, though), but you've given nothing beyond your 
opinion to support it.  

> in oppostion turned out...) but don't just drop in on my discussions with
> others unless you have a direct point to make (not just to

When you post to a public forum, I'll respond to whatever I wish, with 
whatever content I wish.  If you don't like it, you can take your blocks and 
go home.  I must admit I've enjoyed pushing your buttons and watching you 
lose your bearing, but I must also say you're either too hostile a person or 
you're taking YTU far too seriously.  No need to get so riled there, killer.

I want some *evidence* for your conclusions on drop tanks.  Your opinion is 
just not enough for me.  We've seen several economic analysis of them that 
conflict with your preconceived notions.  This is, for some reason, tying 
your panties in a knot.  Simply give some evidence rather than opinion.  Or 
can you admit you don't have any?  That you just don't want drop tanks to 
work and you'll go to any length to rationalize it?  

> characterize the discussion negatively).  (Esp. when the
> thread has reach a point where were are better off "agreeing
> to disagree" and you are only pushing to prolong disucssion
> pointlessly).

I've seen nothing to indicate your argument is anything but hooey.  I've been 
open minded about this from the beginning, never having used drop tanks, nor 
teh gazelle.  It seems like you haven't either, and are unwilling to even 
give them fair consideration.  Now I frankly don't care, but at least admit 
on what you're doing, if that's it.  

> [More generaly characterizations and a place where Gary didn't
> understand my point.]

LOL.  Perhaps you could quote em again?  ;-) 


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:45:13 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Re: That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches 2) Imperial Varient: Dust and Ashes

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
>>1) Red Hot Posters?
>>
>>>LOOKING FOR POSTERS?
>>>We have the best posters on the web. Our posters are outrageous. Exotic
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>You know, there are times when I wish that I was much more witty and
>>harsh than I am.  This is one of those times.  Does anyone have any
>>really clever wordplay about this spam?

>Exotic, huh. Clearly, you'll need a Vacc Suit to view them. Could be worse.
>They culd be Insidious ...

<Smile> Not bad, not bad at all.  Certainly better than anything I could 
have thought up!

>>
>>2) That *other* Imperium and the Spinward Marches.
>>
>>Here, in brief, is the outlines of a dying empire and how the
>>local yokel's respond to it (summaries and near-quotes of
>>Johnson, basically)
>>

>I like this stuff, but I think it's actually *more* appropriate for the
>First Civil War period ... remember, Arbatrella was the Provincial
>General/Governor who successfully took her Fleet home.

Yes, you've pointed out the proper parallel that I was desperately
trying to avoid, mainly because I wanted to bolt the scenario
onto the Gurps:Traveller universe.

(Strephon LIVES!  Strephon LIVES! Strephon... umm, 
please excuse that uncontrolled outburst of enthusiasm there.)

Regardless, it would be interesting to roleplay the Civil War 
era, and the political debates whirling around at that time.
Especially if the Referee makes it clear that it doesn't have
to turn out in the same way as the Offical Timeline....

>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
>Germans fits though.

(I tip my virtual hat) Yep, that would fit better.  The main issue here
is having the Imperiun degrade, without having the Solomani
launch the Second Solomani Rim War.  The Zhodani aren't so bad,
but you'd have to make sure that they don't economically expand
into the Marches and rake the place of the Imperial economy.
The Vargr, of course, merely add to the fun.

Imperial Varient: Dust and Ashes

Actually, I always wondered why the Solomani didn't retake
all their lost territiories during the Rebellion era: it seem's
mainly due to internal divisions and poor ground forces
(Remember that weak "grav tank" the Confederation Army
was using against Trepida's? As the French said in a 
similar situation, "It's magnificent, but it is not war.").  Moreover
the Imperial Vilani and Vegan's, knowing what was coming if
they lost, fought with a desperate valour, successfully stopping
the Solomani from conquering the Vegan Autonomous Region
with Federation of Daibei help (Daibei being another breakaway
piece of the Imperium, refusing to give Lucan the sector fleet's).

If I remember the "Children of Earth" web stuff properly,
a armistice was nearly complete at the time of the Virus
release of 1130.  Which brings up an intersting question:
what if there was no Virus?

The immediate political effect is the continuation of interstellar
civilization in Known Space, with much of the Imperium slipping
into another Long Night.  Dulinor's fleet's would have successfully
destroyed Lucan's main Rimward force at Cymbelline (without
Virus infecting his computers), and probably made a successful drive
to Capital, killing Lucan.  Even so, none of the other fractions would
recognize him as Emperor, so he would return to Illeish, to deal 
with the Verge rebellion against his rule.  He would retain a garrison 
at Core sector, to put some muscle to his claim as Emperor and deny
other's the right to that title.

With the end of the Second Solomani Rim War/the Rimward theater
of the Rebellion, a somewhat larger yet less belliose Solomani
Confederation would become the dominant power in it's area.
With the effective self-destruction of it's old enemy, attention would
turn inwards to reform, the softening of Solomani ideology,
reintergrating Terra as the capital of the Confederation, and putting
the ecomomy on a peacetime footing.  The Solomani/Aslan/Daibei/
Vegan peace is a peace of mutual exhaustion, and has a good chance 
of enduring.

The Domain of Deneb would probably become the Regency as in TNE.
The democratic element's of The New Era's Regency alway's felt
artifical to me: I'd retain noble rule, but agree with the ending of the
Psionic Suppression's.  The Vargr occupying Corridor would stay, but
become Client States of the Regency.  Trade with the Ziru Sirkka
(Revived Vilani Star Empire) in Vland Sector would be dangerous, but 
doeable.  Eventually, Vland independence would be recognized, and the
Regency would shift into the Star Empire of Deneb, with good relations
with the Zho's and the Vilani.

The Julian Protectorate would incorporate Antares and 
The Empty Quarter.  The rest of the Coreward Imperium would become
Vargr and Human mini-states.  Dulinor's garrison at Sylea would 
eventually rebel, becoming the Second Sylean Federation and renouncing
any claim to the Third Imperium.  Strephon's Imperum would have long 
disintergrated into the Wilds, just like the rest of the interior sectors.
Margaret's Holding would become the Domain of Delphi, with Margaret's
line claiming to be the sole legitimate descentant of Strephon's dynasty
and the Third Imperium.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:06:28 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

LOL.  I'm really *not* aiming for your posts, David.  :-)

> >The word "normal" might be a bit provocative
> 
> Well, I think there is a little bit of people wanting "their" version
> to be annointed the "real" one...

Except it's not.  It's, by self proclamation, "Alternate."  Do you really 
expect T5 to use "TTL?"  This isn't the GTML, after all...


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:46:01 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

In a message dated 4/18/99 2:04:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com 
writes:

<< There is very little real reason to believe that the Cretans were 
 matriarchal.  There is  not enough evidence to support that assumption, 
since 
 their indigenous language remains unreadable, and their later Linear B 
 wrintings in Greek show a typical Greek patriarchy.   While it is possible 
 they were matriarchal, there's no real evidence to support it.
  >>

There were some matriarchal cultures; weren't the Celtic Britons matriarchal? 
Also Judaism is matrilineal. If the mother is a Jew, the child is. If not, 
then not. Judaism still exists (so I think some matriarchal cultures can 
succeed) , despite numerous efforts to the contrary...though to be fair, it 
will probably be long gone and absorbed into Christianity and/or Islam by the 
time the Solomani conquer the Vilani...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:53:50 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

In a message dated 4/18/99 3:09:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk writes:

<< just think of it as pre-marinated K'Kree >>

more like a pickled K'Kree...:-)

I still say that most sentients will have taboos against eating other 
sentients. This could make GOOD adventure nuggets. The IMOJ (or the other 
races equivelents) chasing down rings of sentient eaters. I would think they 
would be looked upon like cannibals or serial killers or a bloodthirsty 
cult...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:01:06 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 04:38 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dudes, Dudettes.
> >
> >Who all is Here?
>
> Me! Mee!!!
>
> There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
> of folks going to BayCon is right.

That was my take. But Maybe we can recruit some more.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:02:37 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Kristian Miller wrote:

> Evyn MacDude wrote:
> >
> > Dudes, Dudettes.
> >
> > Who all is Here?
>
> Well, I'm in the south Bay area.  Why do you ask?  Are you interested
> in starting or joining a campaign?

More like we are having a little shindig at the Dennys accross from
BayCon on that friday.

Wanna come?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:05:00 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Todd (Tascelt@aol.com) is actually out of Stockton, but he grew up in the SJ
> area and still goes to BayCon religiously like me :)

Cool your already on the list thou...

> BTW, I should have
> prints available for sale at the art show.  I'm looking into 11 x 14 or
> bigger with any luck.

 Hey cross your fingers I'm working on getting a large format Die-sub
printer this year.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:05:42 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

David P. Summers wrote:

> >There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
> >of folks going to BayCon is right.
>
> I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
> Bunnies and Burrows.

Gonna show friday?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:08:25 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: CIN entry 15/II/1203

COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: BUS/POL, AUTHORITY CIN/AUBAINE 
RC ASSEMBLY HALL, AUBAINE (0738/AUBAINE, A78A884-C), 15/II/1203
KEYWORDS: TRADE BILL, TRADE ROUTE, SO SKIRE SUBSECTOR, SITAH, BACK FACE

	A bill has just been introduced that would fund and authorize contact 
and diplomacy missions into So Skire Subsector that would facilitate official 
relations with the Reformation Coalition and facilitate official Reformation 
Coalition endorsement of the Hive Federation's recently established J3 trade 
route connecting the Reformation Coalition with the Sitah (Subsector P/Old 
Expanses) region.
	Initial commentary has been very muted, but it is expected that 
Oriflammen representatives will oppose the measure, as they have a number of 
operations ongoing in the "Back Face" of the Coalition, that could be 
endangered by official Coalition activity.  Other Centrist and 
Pro-Consolidation representatives are expected to favor the measure, and 
Federalist sentiments are divided.  Many Aubani representatives wish to see 
the Oriflammen "conquest" of the Back Face thwarted, but are dubious in 
encouraging the increasing power of the Coalition's central government, 
particularly in issues of interstellar trade.
	Other debate has circulated around revising the Primary Area of 
Operations to allow full operations in this and other subsectors, but the 
issue is expected to be blocked by both Centrist and Federalist leadership, 
who are protecting the compromise agreed upon with the founding of the 
Coalition.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:16:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 05:09 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
>>of folks going to BayCon is right.
>
>I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
>Bunnies and Burrows.

Or you could combine the two...

Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #468
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 469



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Imperial Varient: Dust and Ashes
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Blade Runner (was: The Matrix)
Re: Economics of drop tanks
"We're going to Graceland..."
Ah....Paranoia Press...
Favorite Adventures
Fw: Failed Societies
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Non-virus TNE
Re: World Conquest
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:31:02 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)


>But the Director's cut only came out around '93 IIRC, which is around 10
>years after the first print had achieved a 'cult' status.


True, but the version seen most often now is the Director's Cut, which was
my point (for whatever reason, I forget now).

>Me to. It went on limited release in the UK and I saw it on the big screen
>in Southampton, then later on on a smaller screen in my University. The
>detail and impact of it was amazing compared to the 4:3 ratio on the
>version I previously had. Sadly, the first time I saw it I was mentally
>repeating the voiceover...


The impact was fantastic. The effects still hold up extremely well even 17
years later. I never understood the voiceover. I understood what was being
said, but I didn't understand its use in the movie. The very size and
appearance of Los Angeles was integral to the plot and served very well as
"narration."

>I agree. The film seems to be stressing that once the replicant's have
>memories there is nothing to differentiate them from humans. Indeed, in
>Rachel's case, there is nothing to distinguish her as a replicant until she
>goes rogue and the Tyrell Corp reports her missing.


Exactly. The reps were human in all but name.

>Being honest, I feel sorry for Batty, although horrified by his brutality.
>But that is just an effect of the way he was made; the monster that
>destroys Tyrell is created by him.


Batty is a really sympathetic character. He's a man who (through no fault of
his own) is completely out of time. I think alot of props go to Rutger
Hauer. His portrayal was fantastic. He ad-libbed the ending monologue...

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die."

Which is an amazing feat and is just such an downright amazing line. Of
course, I think I read too much into it.

>The other clue is the corporations motto ' More human than human'.


Not to mention the whole scene in Tyrell's room. The impression that I got
from "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" seemed to be more about identity.
I read it a long time ago, so I may not be remembering it correctly. It
seemed to have a different focus. Then again, identity is a recurring theme
with Dick.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:44:42 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 05:09 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >>There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
> >>of folks going to BayCon is right.
> >
> >I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
> >Bunnies and Burrows.
>
> Or you could combine the two...
>
> Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?

Hey Doug do we have one on ice or is it BYOV?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:44:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: The Matrix (spoilers!)


>Wrong, Scott added the narration. He wanted the studio to kill the picture
>since they messed up the unicorn sequence and others.  He figured that the
>voice over would make it unappealing, but the studio execs love it and
Scott
>was VERY unhappy.  His plan backfired on him.


Do you have some reference on this? The story has always been that the
studio demanded the voiceovers after a negative reaction from the general
public at a test screening. That one goes back a long time. I think I first
read it in Starlog.

There's a Los Angeles Times article that is quoted in the Blade Runner FAQ.
If you could reference it, I'm sure the FAQ maintainer would love to add
that in.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:49:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 10:44 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:

>> Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?
>
>Hey Doug do we have one on ice or is it BYOV?

Figure we snag a couple of neos or gophers on the way over...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:02:08 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 10:44 PM 4/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >> Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?
> >
> >Hey Doug do we have one on ice or is it BYOV?
>
> Figure we snag a couple of neos or gophers on the way over...

I got the slugger, an I'll have to cruise through some Primo 'burbs on the way
there.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:32:57 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Varient: Dust and Ashes

> The immediate political effect is the continuation of interstellar
> civilization in Known Space, with much of the Imperium slipping
> into another Long Night.  Dulinor's fleet's would have successfully
> destroyed Lucan's main Rimward force at Cymbelline (without
> Virus infecting his computers), and probably made a successful drive
> to Capital, killing Lucan.  Even so, none of the other fractions would

Dulinor "wins" w/o Virus.  He got to within 3 or 4 jumps of Capital (at least 
one more after Celetron (0922 Core). You mean that instead of Cymbeline (in 
the Solomani Rim), right?  Dulinor won at RS Omicron, regardless.  Survival 
Margin is clear Lucan was spread too thin to beat the Coronation Fleet.  It 
was when he kept going closer to Capital that he had more and more 
malfunctions (and misjumps from ships in his fleet, all caused by Virus) that 
cut his forces and destroyed his nerve.  Now Dulinor might have to deal w/ a 
sizable K'kree battle force that has a good portion of Lucan's Navy busy...

> recognize him as Emperor, so he would return to Illeish, to deal 
> with the Verge rebellion against his rule.  He would retain a garrison 
> at Core sector, to put some muscle to his claim as Emperor and deny
> other's the right to that title.

I think it would be more Dulinor controlling Lucan's safe and his own, w/ his 
efforts being to secure teh region connecting them (and turn away the K'kree, 
which shouldn't be *too* difficult IMO).  Seems like most of the people in 
Lucan's zone would be glad to have him gone, though Dulinor would have alot 
of propaganda to overcome.  Probably giving ground (even a treaty, perhaps) 
to the Solomani (and collectively scrunching, though not eliminating, 
Margaret).  Norris and Vland stay independant, though possibly Vland returns 
to the Fold.  Antares either stays independant or stays in the Julian 
Protectorate.  IMO.  I see a defense pact of some kind amongst the other 
factions.  The whole point of MT, IMO, was to destroy the single Imperium and 
make many.  It's teh same result in the New Era.

> The Domain of Deneb would probably become the Regency as in TNE.
> The democratic element's of The New Era's Regency alway's felt
> artifical to me: I'd retain noble rule, but agree with the ending of the
> Psionic Suppression's.  The Vargr occupying Corridor would stay, but

Blah!  ;-)

> become Client States of the Regency.  Trade with the Ziru Sirkka
> (Revived Vilani Star Empire) in Vland Sector would be dangerous, but 
> doeable.  Eventually, Vland independence would be recognized, and the
> Regency would shift into the Star Empire of Deneb, with good relations
> with the Zho's and the Vilani.

I don't see that, at all.  Rebellion Sourcebook speaks of Norris having to 
face his choice between Empire Of Deneb or Federation of Deneb.  I can't 
really see Norris choosing anything but the "Federation" (Regency) model.  
YMMV (and apparently it does).  ;-)

> The Julian Protectorate would incorporate Antares and 
> The Empty Quarter.  The rest of the Coreward Imperium would become
> Vargr and Human mini-states.  Dulinor's garrison at Sylea would 
> eventually rebel, becoming the Second Sylean Federation and renouncing
> any claim to the Third Imperium.  Strephon's Imperum would have long 
> disintergrated into the Wilds, just like the rest of the interior sectors.
> Margaret's Holding would become the Domain of Delphi, with Margaret's
> line claiming to be the sole legitimate descentant of Strephon's dynasty
> and the Third Imperium.

But remember, it's the Real Strephon in Gushemege.  He keeps it and joins up 
in a defense pact w/ the Regency, Vland, and Antares.  Support of the 
Lancians and Gushemege.  Maybe in a sort of defense pact against Dulinor w/ 
the other factions.  Maybe even recognizing Strephon as Suzerain, though not 
as absolute autocrat, as all those factions are leaded by Archdukes who've 
sworn fealty to Strephon, though recognize the need to serve their own people.

Interesting thought excercise, though I prefer the "real" sequence.  :-)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:39:15 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

>>>There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
>>>of folks going to BayCon is right.
>>
>>I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
>>Bunnies and Burrows.
>
>Or you could combine the two...

 Oh gawd, Hoops in Traveller. Either that or the ILR.
 (ten points to whoever gets both references)

>
>Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?
>

 I intend to be there, being a San Leandro resident...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:07:40 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Blade Runner (was: The Matrix)

"Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net> said,

>Wrong, Scott added the narration. He wanted the studio to kill the picture
>since they messed up the unicorn sequence and others.  He figured that the
>voice over would make it unappealing, but the studio execs love it and Scott
>was VERY unhappy.  His plan backfired on him.

Sorry, but *lots* of misconceptions here. Scott certainly never wanted the
studio to "kill the picture" (why would he want that?). Sure, he was
disappointed that they wouldn't let him shoot the unicorn dream, but he
didn't let that stop him from making the best film he could. (The unicorn,
BTW, never appeared in the original "workprint" preview showings; the
unicorn in the anniversary "Director's Cut" release is actually test
footage from _Legend_ -- and not very good, either).

Voice-overs were present even in Hampton Fancher's original script, and
were included in every version of the screenplay up until just months
before shooting began. From the very beginning, Ridley Scott and Fancher
wanted a voice-over narration because it was a staple of the film-noir
detective genre -- and because Scott loved the atmospheric voice-overs in
_Taxi Driver_ and _Apocalypse Now_. But eventually they were written out of
the script as unnecessary and distracting.

However, the test audiences reacted with confusion when the work-print was
shown, causing the producers *and* Scott much anxiety about the film's
commercial chances. Scott concurred with his producers that a more upbeat
ending, and explanatory voice-overs, should be added. So he hired a
novelist to write voice-overs for the otherwise-finished film.
Unfortunately, the producers thought his work was too artsty-fartsy, and
hired a bad TV writer (uncredited) to do them yet again.

Finally, an already-exhausted Harrison Ford was brought in, to record the
voice-overs -- and for a single, final shot (smiling Deckard and Rachel
driving away in a sunlit car). Ford deeply loathed Ridley Scott, but I
don't believe he intentionally did a bad job on the voice-overs (as some
have suggested) in the hopes that they wouldn't be used (he thought they
were stupid). I think he was simply tired, and not the right kind of actor;
he does good "physical acting", but his line-reading skills are sometimes
deficient (he's no Deniro or Martin Sheen, that's for sure).

An amusing aside: at the world premier of BR, each of the two
screenwriters, Hampton Fancher and David Peoples, thought the *other* had
written the voice overs. Having become friends, they did their best to
pretend they liked the voice-overs, so as not to offend. Only later did
they find out that some nameless hack had done them!

Anyone with an interest in BR, or in film-making in general, really should
read Paul Sammon's terrific book, _Future Noir: The Making of Blade
Runner_.  It's the most authoritative source on the film, obsessively
detailed, stuffed with obscure lore, and just a great read.

Despite its flaws,_Blade Runner_ is still my personal favourite film, and
(after Kubrick's _2001_) the second-greatest SF movie ever made.

ObTrav:  Uh.... Er.... Who's the Ridley Scott of Bogustin Studio's
holomovie mills?

Best,

 + GMG +

      _Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_,
                 Edited by David Hartwell and Glenn Grant
                    *** Come to our launch parties!***
 Montreal: Friday, 23 April, 6:30pm, Nebula bookshop, 1832 Ste-Catherine W.
    Toronto: Friday, 7 May, 7:00pm, The Arts & Letters Club, 14 Elm St.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:22:04 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>Lets not forget the Gazelle Close Escort.  It was designed to require drop
>tanks to get its jump 5, when dropped.  Until they were replaced it had
>fuel only for a jump 2.  If the tanks were retained, it has a jump 4
>capability due to the extra volume.

Let's not forget that was the revised, updated version of the Gazelle as
presented in Supplement 9 : Fighting Ships

The original one as presented in JTAS, couldn't jump _at_all_ without the
drop-tanks, and only had enough internal tankage to get it in-system.
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 06:00:32 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: "We're going to Graceland..."

Greetings All:

On misjumps, here's what I've done in the past:

(1) Jump takes longer than expected (determined by die roll)

(2) Jump takes less time than expected (determined by die roll)

(3) Jump into a different hex, but known space (determined by two die 
rolls...roll one is around the target hex 1-6 for the direction of the 
misjump. Roll two, 1-6, number of hexes away in that direction)

(4) Wonderland misjump! You end up really far away! Mayb not in the universe 
of the Third Imperium! Past misjumps have included:

- --M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne, Swords and 
Glory).

- --Jack Vance's world of Tschai (see City of the Chasch, Servants of the 
Wankh, The Dirdir, The Pnume in separate volumes, Tor released all four as a 
omnibus/trade paperback a few years ago). The Space Gamer had a Traveller 
related article years ago on this. I'm not sure if this was Metagaming-Space 
Gamer or Steve Jackson Games-Space Gamer. If it was published by SJG, maybe 
we'll see this appear on the Pyramid web site (Loren, any thoughts on that?).

- --Jack Chalker's Well World. (One solo book, on large book split in half, two 
followup books, one followup trilogy...and I'm sure he's got more in him). 
Kind of a neat idea, not canon by any means, but makes for interesting 
adventures!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 06:00:35 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Ah....Paranoia Press...

Greetings:

Great stuff, that Paranoia Press, IMHO.

Anybody know details of the "Serpent Worlds" campaign? When the "Cobra Class" 
(?) scout was first mentioned waaayyy back in JTAS#2, it mentioned that it 
was part of Don Rapp's "Serpent Worlds" campaign. This ship made a 
reappearance (with some variant ships) in S&A, as a product of the "Delta 
Research" line.

I'd love to hear more about this early campaign, heck, I'd love to hear some 
"tales out of school" from Marc or Loren about their campaigns!

While tripping down memory lane, I took a quick look at my Traveller 
collection. Damn! I**don't** have "Aliens and Artifacts" any more! Got S&A, 
M&M, Beyond, Vanguard Reaches, SORAG and I might even have some of the 
standard papers they sold...but no "Aliens and Artifacts". 

Anybody out there have a copy they would be willing to part with?

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)
(Traveller Since 1977)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 06:00:37 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Favorite Adventures

Greetings:

My favorites were (and I'm cheating a bit here):

1. The "Ancients Series"--Shadows/Research Station Gamma/Twilight's 
Peak/Secret of the Ancients plus the one short adventure that appeared in 
Challenge.

2. The "Sky Raiders" Trilogy: FASA, great stuff in the Far Frontiers sector!

3. While I never ran it, I got a lot from the ongoing adventure/campaign that 
appeared in Travellers' Digest.

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 03:18:27 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Failed Societies

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: Failed Societies
>
>There were some matriarchal cultures; weren't the Celtic Britons
matriarchal?

No, however women were allowed much greater freedom than in contemporary
Rome.  Boudicca was not representative, and in fact, "took over" only after
her husband died, similar to Queen Zenobia of Palmyra (modern Syria).

>Also Judaism is matrilineal. If the mother is a Jew, the child is. If not,
>then not. Judaism still exists (so I think some matriarchal cultures can
>succeed) , despite numerous efforts to the contrary...though to be fair, it
>will probably be long gone and absorbed into Christianity and/or Islam by
the
>time the Solomani conquer the Vilani...
>

There is a significant difference between matriarchal lineage (practiced by
a quite large portion of the planet) and matriarchal rule, which are
virtually non-existant.  The problem is, in primitive societies, might make
right, and among humans, male=might, pretty much.  By the time technology
comes along to help out, society is usually set in its ways.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:42:12 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 
>
>I want some *evidence* for your conclusions on drop tanks.  Your opinion is 
>just not enough for me.  We've seen several economic analysis of them that 
>conflict with your preconceived notions. 

We've seen an *opinion* by Chris Thrash that under GT rules Drop Tanks had
only a 15% cost advantage. Yup, only 15%, in an Imperium with interest
rates in low single figures.

I posted a design (the 'Mongerel Dog' class) on 10/4/99 that put the cost
of a jump-6 using drop tanks at Cr 1110 plus (0.78 * drop tankage cost).
The design was brutally un-optimised, using a TL9 fusion power plant, and
assumes a need for a 5% annual rate of return on capital.

> This is, for some reason, tying 
>your panties in a knot.  Simply give some evidence rather than opinion.  Or 
>can you admit you don't have any?  That you just don't want drop tanks to 
>work and you'll go to any length to rationalize it?  

Gary, I've done the work. They do to Imperial trade and society what
railroads did to trade and society on Earth. For a start, you get mass
tourism and such - a 1 dton bunk puts a jump-6 return trip at about 2
months pay for many Imperial citizens.

And if you assume the vaguely efficient capital markets of the late 3rd
Imperium, they do it in years rather than decades.

Gary, I'd be more than interested to see you throw some numbers about in
support of your position.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:03:44 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Non-virus TNE

>From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>

>>I like this stuff, but I think it's actually *more* appropriate for the
>>First Civil War period ... remember, Arbatrella was the Provincial
>>General/Governor who successfully took her Fleet home.
>
>Yes, you've pointed out the proper parallel that I was desperately
>trying to avoid, mainly because I wanted to bolt the scenario
>onto the Gurps:Traveller universe.

*grin*

<pro-Strephon outburst snipped>

>>I'm also more inclined to think of the Zhos as the Persians. Vargr as
>>Germans fits though.
>
>(I tip my virtual hat) Yep, that would fit better.  The main issue here
>is having the Imperiun degrade, without having the Solomani
>launch the Second Solomani Rim War.  The Zhodani aren't so bad,
>but you'd have to make sure that they don't economically expand
>into the Marches and rake the place of the Imperial economy.
>The Vargr, of course, merely add to the fun.

The Zhodani dont *want* to expand. They dont want to absorb all those
Imperials, for a start. All they want is to make it clear that Imperial
expansion must be frozen at or about the border established by the initial
Frontier Wars.

>
>Imperial Varient: Dust and Ashes
>
>Actually, I always wondered why the Solomani didn't retake
>all their lost territiories during the Rebellion era: it seem's
>mainly due to internal divisions and poor ground forces
>(Remember that weak "grav tank" the Confederation Army
>was using against Trepida's? As the French said in a 
>similar situation, "It's magnificent, but it is not war.").  Moreover
>the Imperial Vilani and Vegan's, knowing what was coming if
>they lost, fought with a desperate valour, successfully stopping
>the Solomani from conquering the Vegan Autonomous Region
>with Federation of Daibei help (Daibei being another breakaway
>piece of the Imperium, refusing to give Lucan the sector fleet's).

Quantity has a quality all of it's own, to quote Stalin. With seven intact
sectors, the Solomani should have stopped rolling at or about Capital.

<stuff about the breakup of the Imperium into 4-6 seperate States snipped>

>With the end of the Second Solomani Rim War/the Rimward theater
>of the Rebellion, a somewhat larger yet less belliose Solomani
>Confederation would become the dominant power in it's area.
>With the effective self-destruction of it's old enemy, attention would
>turn inwards to reform, the softening of Solomani ideology,
>reintergrating Terra as the capital of the Confederation, and putting
>the ecomomy on a peacetime footing.  The Solomani/Aslan/Daibei/
>Vegan peace is a peace of mutual exhaustion, and has a good chance 
>of enduring.

Y'know, a lot of people thought Stalin would soften after WW2 was over too.
They were wrong (although I guess you could regard Khruschev as that
'softening').

>
>The Domain of Deneb would probably become the Regency as in TNE.
>The democratic element's of The New Era's Regency alway's felt
>artifical to me: I'd retain noble rule, but agree with the ending of the
>Psionic Suppression's.  The Vargr occupying Corridor would stay, but
>become Client States of the Regency.  Trade with the Ziru Sirkka
>(Revived Vilani Star Empire) in Vland Sector would be dangerous, but 
>doeable.  Eventually, Vland independence would be recognized, and the
>Regency would shift into the Star Empire of Deneb, with good relations
>with the Zho's and the Vilani.

I dislike the Regency supplement - it is the *most* Yanks-in-Space of
anything I've read.

Also, you can stack the shit out of their 'democratic assembley' so easily
it isnt funny (1 vote per UPP pop point ... six 200 people colonies, and
you out-vote Mora. Get real ... it'd turn into an orgy of branch-stacking,
corruption and stresses as the big worlds retaliate after being outvoted on
issue after issue ... with the big worlds are providing the tax base,
remember. If you are goanna have one vote per planet, make it a House of
Review with limited powers. Plus the alleged starship shortage plus a
billion Zho refugees - how'd they get to the Imperium ? Rowboats ?).

>
>The Julian Protectorate would incorporate Antares and 
>The Empty Quarter.  The rest of the Coreward Imperium would become
>Vargr and Human mini-states.  Dulinor's garrison at Sylea would 
>eventually rebel, becoming the Second Sylean Federation and renouncing
>any claim to the Third Imperium.  Strephon's Imperum would have long 
>disintergrated into the Wilds, just like the rest of the interior sectors.
>Margaret's Holding would become the Domain of Delphi, with Margaret's
>line claiming to be the sole legitimate descentant of Strephon's dynasty
>and the Third Imperium.

I actually think the Second Civil War sans virus would have been about as
destructive as, say, the Hundred Years War plus the Wars of Religion were
in France, or the Peasants Revolt plus the Thirty Years War in Germany.
Lots of damage, lots of tragedies, but enough infrastructure left to rebuild.

You really only need TL7 plus a handful of TL11 worlds to keep a viable
interstellar society going. You can do a lot with a dozen Type S scouts
dedicated to hauling spare parts.

I'd actually like to revisit Hard Times, from the POV of a Free Company
type group - a Cruiser Squadron who have declared independance. One 20 kton
battlecruiser can suppress a lot of pirates, and the two subsectors in Hard
Times (I've forgotten them - I had to give Hard Times back to it's owner)
had a good base from which to rebuild, once security was established
(repeat after me ... *convoy*).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:04:15 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: World Conquest

At 04:27 PM 4/16/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Also meson guns are straight line weapons.  After hitting 3 stationary
>> targets a non mobile meson site can be triagulated and it a sub fires to
>> often it to can be 'triangulated' into a small area and killed.
>
>Slight problem. You do *not* know the direction the meson beam came
>from. Just that it hit a specific ship. That means you don't *have*
>those "straight lines" to work with.
>
>Second, even if you can infer direction (which won't be accurate to
>more than a degree or so), you don't know *which* site or sub fired.
>So you've got a straight line. If it interests with another line of
>fire (adjusted for the movement of the planet), that *may* indicate a
>meson site. Or it may be the chance intersection of fire lines from two
>*different* sites.
>
>Heck, if the sites have comm links with each other, they'd plane their
>for so as to *deliberately* cause intersections, just to mislead you.
>

That is why you need three shots fired from a given messon site.  Try it
graphically.  With only the vector known the third shot locks in the postion
provided the target are reasonly spaced apart in 3Ds.  If distance can also
be aproximated (it should be doable) two shots are a lock.

Think about it for a moment.  Those meson are moving at near C.  They have
momentum.  That momentum must be consevered.  Also even a very short half
life is a HALF life.  So if the half life in in the fraction of one
millisecond you will have a disperion pattern of the energy created by the
decay.  That pattern will be your arrow pointing to the source.

As for and atact on a ship the ships screens should be designed to provide
the vector for an incoming attack.  If not then the ships senors should be
able to record the interation between the ship's screens and the meson beam
and provide the vector.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:01:17 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

At 12:47 AM 4/18/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:21 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>>Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
>>
>>>>> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
>>>>> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.
>>*weg*
>>>>Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree...
>>>I say stuff the Rebellion and bring on the 6th Frontier War!
>>
>>
>>    I agree.  *weg*  Let the 3I whup some K'Kree tushie.  They do make good
>>eatin'.
>
>Ok, if the 3I and the horses go eyeball to halter, what do the Solomani and
>Hivers do?  The Solomani might try and get involved in a land grab, but
>would the Hivers perhaps try to "mediate" a cease fire or settlement?
>
>This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info on
>the cattle ships.
>

They would probably be armed with mooson guns....

or bison batteries...

and moved by cattle drives...



Seriously though, what would a centaurs 'pilots seat' look like for a fighter?

How many Gs could they stand?

What would be the stats for their battle dress?

Charles L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #469
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 470



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Skyron (was Re: New solar system discovered)
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Downbelow Station, etc.
BioEngineering at TL8
Re: Skyron (was Re: New solar system discovered)
Jesse DeGraff.
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
More RealLift(tm) Traveller Tech (or *102* Robots)
Size comparison  (was Re: Jump Q's)
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Ah....Paranoia Press...
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Jesse DeGraff.
Comments: Authenticated sender is < >
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
re: failed societies
Re:
Recent SPAM attack
Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules
Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!
Old fanzine replacement request
GURPS Traveller Ships 1.05.00

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:04:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Skyron (was Re: New solar system discovered)

Fellow Travellers,

This may hvae already been done, as I am still catching up on my TML 
Digests, but to provide more info on Glenn St-Germain's theory that 
Skyron fits the new solar system model, I present the following data, 
taken from Andrew M-V's First Contact data, which in turn came from 
Supplement 10: Solomani Rim, retrofitted to the 2096AD timeline:

Skyron       0533 X312000-0    Ic Ba              002 Us K5 V M8 D

Unfortunately, Skyron has two stars and only two gas giants.  Close 
fit, but not quite what we're looking for.  Still, once I'm caught 
up, I'll give it a try and see what I can find, too, just in case.  
:)

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

From: "Glenn St-Germain" <glenn@powersurfr.com>

> Finally, an excuse to de-lurk from the list.
> 
> Last Thursday, David Smart posted news from the BBC about the discovery 
> of a multiple-planet system in Upsilon Andromedae. (Someone else -- 
> don't remember who (sorry!) repeated the info later that day.)
> 
> I think I might have found it on my Solomani Rim map.
> 
> A few assumptions:
> - - uAnd's distance of 44 LY from Earth works out to just under 13.5
> parsecs. Call it 13 for simplicity's sake.
> - - The "flattening" of the galaxy for the Traveller map means that the 
> most important indicator for finding a star on the map is distance and 
> its Right Ascension. uAnd has a RA of 1h 36m 48s.
> - - Tau Ceti (Iilike/Solomani Rim 1429) has a RA of 1h 44m 08S, putting
> it in the same part of the sky. Upsilon Andromedae would be just a 
> little clockwise of Tau Ceti (from Terra's perspective) on a Traveller 
> map.
> 
> The best fit for the above is Skyron/Solomani Rim 0533, which
> has a UPP (from Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim) of B312433-C.
> Not exactly the French Riviera, but it's there. And according to the 
> map, gas giants are present. :)

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 99 01:14:38 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000kasgicom

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:19:16 +0000
From: Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Downbelow Station, etc.

At 06:46 PM 4/18/99 +1200, you wrote:
>
>
>>>>  Now there's a lesson you can bank on - if you're going to have
>power-mad
>>>>sadists on your side, you deserve at least that they be clever :)
>>>
>>>Me, I'd rather have Mrs. DiGriz.
>>
>>Yikes!  You are a brave soul!
>
>Well, I reckon it's better to have her on my side than on the other guy's
>:-)
>
>>BTW, is that before or after the psyco-surgery?
>
>Damn, I don't remember that bit, what's the difference ?
>

Before teh surgery she wanted everybody very dead.  Mr. Jim DiGriz was the
only one who was her match.  She was a mad genius.  She still is but now she
only wants Jim's enemies dead... and female that looks in his direction for
to long...she still very blood thirsty.

Her insanity came from being born very smart but very unpretty.  She had a
night mare child hood that left her very bent!  IIRC.  The information is
only in about 4 paragraphs in the book she first appears in.  I think it was
either the second or third book.  She made and spent a fortune to make
herself very beutifull and pretended to be much less smart than she was.
She kept an old picture of herself and asked Jim after they first slept
together if he would have slept with the girl in the picture.  Then she
tries to kill him and turn a 'supper weapon' ship loose on the universe.
She wanted to 'make them pay'.

Charles L.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:22:01 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: BioEngineering at TL8

Below is an excerpt from a RealLift(tm) story posted
last Friday on MSNBC's website. For the full story,
go to:    http://www.msnbc.com/news/259599.asp



Scientists grow arteries in the lab
Technique may one day be used in heart-bypass surgery

MSNBC NEWS SERVICES

April 15 - An experiment with pig cells and a machine that
mimics the pulse of the heart shows that new, living arteries
can be grown in the laboratory. The finding could one day
make heart-bypass surgery possible for patients whose own
vessels are too diseased to be used in the procedure.

...A number of labs are now experimenting with tissue culture
techniques designed to grow new body parts. Some have grown
ligaments, tendons, bone and even a new ear.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:22:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Skyron (was Re: New solar system discovered)

> > The best fit for the above is Skyron/Solomani Rim 0533, which >
> has a UPP (from Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim) of B312433-C. >
> Not exactly the French Riviera, but it's there. And according to >
> the  map, gas giants are present. :)

> > *applause* Well done! (Were there any other candidates at 14pc
> or at slightly different angles?)


> </color>Actually, yes to both:

> - - Cadmus (0532, C532423-B), 13 pc from Terra

> - - Kraken (0432, C57A587-B), 14 pc from Terra

Cadmus has two gas giants and two belts, and Kraken has five gas
giants and three belts.  Cadmus is a binary system: K8 V M7 D, and
Kraken is also a binary system: M1 V M2 D.

Hmmm.  Perhaps we can alter things just a bit, and . . .

Later,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:28:25 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Jesse DeGraff.

Hey Jesse.

How come I seem to have no end of problems in trying to get a hold of
you lately?

Most of your mail seems to simply bounce back to me.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:24:16 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Charles Prevatte wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seriously though, what would a centaurs 'pilots seat' look like for a fighter?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It would be carefully sculpted to fit whichever K'Kree client race was
intended to use the fightercraft. With a K'Kree's claustrophobia and
hatred of being alone, I can't see a centaur climbing into a small craft
of almost any kind.

It's possible that K'Kree won't even build the things. The idea of creating
a weapons system one of their client races can use but they can't use
themselves may rub them the wrong way.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:32:36 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: More RealLift(tm) Traveller Tech (or *102* Robots)

Another cool story from MSNBC

Story site is:  http://www.msnbc.com/news/258452.asp



Robo-fish spawn new technologies


HIROSHIMA, Japan, April 12 -  It looks like a real sea bream,
and even swims like one. But try to make sushi and you'll
end up with a mouthful of silicone. Scientists at Mitsubishi
Heavy Industries who are trying to build nimbler ships and
submarines by developing oscillating fins have come up
with a lifelike robot fish.

THE SCALY MACHINE is also the first step in lead researcher
Yuuzi Terada's dream of building a Jurassic Park filled with
convincing replicas of long-extinct water creatures.

"We thought, let's make something really unusual," said
Terada.

The aquatic robots, developed over four years at a cost of up to
$1 million, are programmed by a computer and guided by clusters of
sensors in a special tank.

The 23-inch sea bream weighs nearly 6 pounds, the same as a
real fish of that size. A primitive version made its debut at a 1997
show in Indonesia. Mitsubushi has since built an improved version
that was first shown in Japan at the end of last year.

...Mitsubishi's scientists aren't the only ones working in the
relatively new field of underwater biomimetics: Researchers at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, for example, have
developed artificial pike and tuna. Northeastern University,
meanwhile, is working on robotic lobsters and eels that may be
used by the U.S. military to look for underwater mines.


ObTrav:  While wilderness-refueling in an ocean just outside
an Imperial Naval base, one of the PCs decides to snag some
of the local sealife for dinner. An attempt to clean the
catch results in the discovery of the critter being a
surveillance device of a design never seen before...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:42:47 -0700
From: Adahma <adahma@starport.org>
Subject: Size comparison  (was Re: Jump Q's)

Thanks to everyone for all the great answers on this!  Now, just one
other thing...

I'm having a hard time deciding just how big a ship is based on
tonnage.  Can anyone give me some "real life" comparisons, or is there
a convert tonnage to square footage formula I missed? :P

Thanks again!
jdk

Quoting Douglas Glatz (douglas@teleport.COM):
> > I am a Trav newbie(GURPS convert) and about to run my first trav
> > campaign.  I'm not a person that does well converting the tech-speak
> > that seems to be the norm for Traveller, into a "feel", if that makes
> > any sense.
> 
> Welcome to the game and to the list!  :)
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:45:46 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>We've seen an *opinion* by Chris Thrash that under GT rules Drop Tanks had
>only a 15% cost advantage. Yup, only 15%, in an Imperium with interest
>rates in low single figures.

I certainly don't dispute that drop tanks will change the face of the
Imperium eventually. All I'm saying is that I don't think that it would
necessarily happen so fast and be so widespread that modules like _The
Traveller Adventure_ would be invalidated.

And, yes, so far this is just as much unsupported speculation as any
opinions to the contrary. I do intend to work out some examples to
back up my opinions, but right at the moment I have higher priorities. 

And, just to twist Chris' tail a bit, let me point out that if the _Far
Trader_ rules turns out to "prove" that drop tanks doesn't exist, then
it is incompatible with G:T, because G:T _does_ mention drop tanks. So
strictly speaking that would make the FT rules flawed ;-).
 
>I posted a design (the 'Mongerel Dog' class) on 10/4/99 that put the cost
>of a jump-6 using drop tanks at Cr 1110 plus (0.78 * drop tankage cost).
>The design was brutally un-optimised, using a TL9 fusion power plant, and
>assumes a need for a 5% annual rate of return on capital.

Canonical returns for starships are slightly higher (5.something).

And you're ignoring the effect of an existing fleet of conventional ships.
Say someone sets up a drop tank route and undercuts the previous line. It
goes bankrupt. Its ships are sold for a fraction of their original value.
The new owners have radically lower operating costs (since about 55% of
operating costs are bank payments). Now they can outperform the drop tank
ships.

>Gary, I've done the work. They do to Imperial trade and society what
>railroads did to trade and society on Earth. For a start, you get mass
>tourism and such - a 1 dton bunk puts a jump-6 return trip at about 2
>months pay for many Imperial citizens.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? How many canonical world writeups claim
that the world's main income is from tourism? Quite a few IIRC. With
conventional ticket prices these writeups are  --  unlikely, at least.
With reduced prices, they become more plausible.

I'm moving into murky waters here, but I've always felt that the whole
atmosphere of the Traveller universe adventures and other writeups imply
a much greater amount of travel than the official ticket prices warrants.
YMMV.
 
>And if you assume the vaguely efficient capital markets of the late 3rd
>Imperium, they do it in years rather than decades.

Whereever drop tanks are cost-effective, yes. But will drop tanks be cost
effective for low-traffic systems? That's what hasen't been established.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:03:57 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Ah....Paranoia Press...

At 06:00 AM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>While tripping down memory lane, I took a quick look at my Traveller 
>collection. Damn! I**don't** have "Aliens and Artifacts" any more! Got S&A, 
>M&M, Beyond, Vanguard Reaches, SORAG and I might even have some of the 
>standard papers they sold...but no "Aliens and Artifacts". 
>
>Anybody out there have a copy they would be willing to part with?
>
>Fred Kiesche
>(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)
>(Traveller Since 1977)

"Aliens and Artifacts" was never released (nor was "Ryker's Catalog of
Arms"). In my 20+ years of collecting, I've never managed to locate anyone
who has even seen drafts of these two items. If you should ever happen to
locate 'em, please keep me in mind for a photocopy.

Paul Sanders 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:01:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> Gridlore Technologies presents the 20mm Individual Anti-Armor Weapon
> 
> Malf      Type  Damage   SS  Acc  1/2D   Max   Wt  RoF  ST  Rcl  Cost
> Ver(Crit)  Cr  6dx24(5)  12  14   1500  7000  7.5  1NR  10  -2  Cr1250

Hrm..I'll have to look at disposable weapons again.  I don't recall them giving
anywhere _near_ this level of advantage over a standard weapon (you might want
to check your math).  However, as a non-single-shot weapon, you can get this
level of damage (with much better range) for only 360 lb...

Btw, this weapon doesn't fire DU -- that would be an armor divisor of 3.  Armor
divisor of 5 is HD, and not available until GTL 11

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:35:19 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Jesse DeGraff.

You try to my fenris@slip.net address??  It may have bounced for a day when
my bill was late (ooops!!), but other than that you should be able to hit
that one at least if you can't hit my work address.

Jesse


>Hey Jesse.
>
>How come I seem to have no end of problems in trying to get a hold of
>you lately?
>
>Most of your mail seems to simply bounce back to me.
>
>Derek Stanley
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 09:15:06 EST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Comments: Authenticated sender is < >

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:49:15 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> >>>There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
> >>>of folks going to BayCon is right.
> >>
> >>I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
> >>Bunnies and Burrows.
> >
> >Or you could combine the two...
>
>  Oh gawd, Hoops in Traveller. Either that or the ILR.
>  (ten points to whoever gets both references)

I guess I don't count considering our conversation on Saturday.

> >Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?
> >
>
>  I intend to be there, being a San Leandro resident...

Your already on the list.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:47:17 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: failed societies

>>>> (begin quoted material)
alvin plummer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Embracing women as equal partners in life doubles the available labor
pool.
>The US economy now routinely operates at a wartime level of
human-resource
>committment on a routine basis. Suppressing half the population not
only
>removes them from productive positions but also wastes the energy
spent
>doing so. Allow talent into a work force and you create jobs.

Heh.  "Suppressing half the population not only removes them from
productive
positions...." There are a large number of women who would rightfully
resent the implication that they were "oppressed" into starting
families, or that raising children is not a productive activity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The fastest-growing part of the American (and developed-world) economy
is the Service sector. The people who clean our clothes, cook our
meals,
care for our children, run our errands, etc.

These tasks have always needed to be done. They were simply done
by people who weren't counted in measurements of the economy -
housewives. 

As more and more families saw the "free" housekeeper/nanny/cook
turn into another working parent, the value of this person to the
household has started to become apparent. Especially when the 
replacement value of this person is reflected in a massive increase
in the service economy.

(I'm not indicating that people are hiring out and out live-in
servants,
but every time a family orders a pizza or drops a kid off at day-care
we see a service that cost nothing (because the housewife did it for
"free") 
changed to a service that money is paid for and the economists can
see.)

ObTrav: a society that creates invisible housekeepers out of half the
population is probably the simplest hidden factor a interplanetary
economist has to deal with.

Kharganian Merchant: "Why should I pay good credits for a washing
machine? My husbands keep the laundry done just fine, and cost me
nothing but food - and I have to feed them anyway, at least until
after breeding season. Make their workload easier? Do you realize how
stupid they'll make me look if I start pampering them?"

Walt Smith
>>>> (end qouted material)
I remember reading a column in the late 70s or early 80s which tried to
calculate the cost to replace a "housewife" (could be either gender
actually, but represents the primary caregiver who takes care of home
and family) and the results were pretty big.  Consider that a housewife
does duties covered by (incomplete listing):  cleaning, childcare,
nursing, psychologist, banking (allowances and their application to
minors), laundry, tutor, sex partner (there is some cost for this unless
one is celibate), judge/lawyer/arbitrator (which one depending on the
childcare model in use), and some others I can't think of at the
moment.
The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by now.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:13:45 -0700
From: "Andrew Gingery" <gingerya@ohsu.edu>
Subject: Re:

stop sending me your goddamn spam!

>>> <rwm@tansoft.com> 4/19/99 7:15:06 AM >>>
Home Based Travel Biz!!! Free Cruise!!$$

What Have you done with your dreams?
As a member of our team you can earn a
6 figure income and travel for pennies on the dollar
while working from home. Make your Vocation.....your Vacation.

                  $100,000+ FIRST YEAR INCOME

* Earn $2000 - $5000 Weekly-Starting Within 1-4 Weeks!
* 65% Profit Paid Daily
* No Selling
* Work From Home, No Overhead or employees
* High Tech Training & Support
* NOT MLM, 100X More Profitable
* Multi Trillion Dollar Travel Industry

            The most Incredible part of our business is that
                                ALL MY CLIENTS CALL ME!

This is not a hobby! Serious Inquires Only

Call the number below for more information
             There is No Obligation
        24 Hour Toll Free Message
               1-800-914-1861

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:16:48 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Recent SPAM attack

Well the SPAM heads have figured out how to take names on a mailing list, 
such as the TML and send mail to that list as one of us to get buy our 
"spam" filters.  This is really starting to tick me off.  We are working on 
a block solution to this.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules

Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>My calculations for the GTL9 module:

>The module consists of the 'base' fusion plant, including the 'fusion
core'
>cost, plus a six-person airlock and armoured docking tube.

>Base mass of PP: 20000 lb
>Airlock: 3000 lb
>Docking tube: 2000 lb
>Total: 25000 lb (12.5 stons)

>Volume of PP: 400 cf
>Long term access (x4) raise this to 1600 cf

This is just a bit much.  It should be x3 for total volume of PP + access
space. (1 for the PP, 2x PP volume for access space.)

>Airlock: 300 cf
>Docking tube: 40 cf
>Total: 1940 cf (4 spaces)

>Base cost of PP: 4 MCr
>Cost of 'fusion core': 1 MCr
>Airlock: 0.006 MCr
>Docking tube: 0.003 MCr
>Total: 5.009 MCr (5 MCr)

>Could someone please check my calculations?

You may also want to add a fire suppression system as the other techs have
one as well.

This isn't a bad start. I await to see more lower tech modules on the TML.
(save me the trouble of doing them m'self! <G>)

BTW your hull/armour table is right on the money!

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:23:53 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!

To rwm@mpgn.com.

Respectfully sir, if you don't stop spamming us at traveller@mpgn.com,
we'll be forced to take genuine action.


Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:31:38 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Old fanzine replacement request

I posted this a while back - but someone with a good set of Third 
Imperium fanzines (by Mike Jackson) please contact me.  Someone gave
my old set legs...


DonM.
- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:31:44 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Ships 1.05.00

GURPS Traveller Ships has been updated.  

The only change is the ability to use custom hull sizes and the 
statistics for them.  I have already added the hulls from GT into the 
repository so you shouldn't have to add them.  

Be sure you backup your existing repository file if you have added 
any systems since you downloaded.  Once the new version is 
installed, import it.

If you are updating an existing ship, you should verify the hull 
statistics.  

Due to my negligence, some vessels will end up with a Partially 
Streamlined ship when it was Fully Streamlined to start with.  It takes 
2 seconds to correct the problem.

If you encounter this problem, go the Edit Hull dialog box and select 
the correct entry.  Save the ship and you are done.  I apologize for 
any inconvience.

You can get it at

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #470
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 471



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Spooky (was Re: Keith Lost Supplements)
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Spam
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: GURPS Traveller Ships 1.05.00
Starship Size
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Gazelle (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht 
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder
Re: Drop tanks
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder
Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:42:21 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Spooky (was Re: Keith Lost Supplements)

Hey all

Yesterday afternoon, I was driving through Apache Junction on my was back
to Tucson, and I thought to myself "I wonder what's up with those Keith
supplements?"  Paul does or did live around there, so somehow that started
the thgouht process, I guess.

So I come into work today, open my mail, and find a bunch of e-mails about
the very same subject, with a response from Paul.

So, I am forced to wonder - are you all some sort of Psionic Zhodani spies
or something?  Get outta my mind!

As for Paul - stick with the boring studies task.  I for one can wait a
little while longer on the books.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:42:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

On 04/19/99 17:45:46 Hans wrote:
>And, just to twist Chris' tail a bit, let me point out that if the _Far
>Trader_ rules turns out to "prove" that drop tanks doesn't exist, then
>it is incompatible with G:T, because G:T _does_ mention drop tanks. So
>strictly speaking that would make the FT rules flawed ;-).

	There's nothing in FT that could possibly be used to "prove" drop 
tanks don't exist.  FT is based on economic principles and the GT vehicle 
design rules.  We didn't make up any of our prices out of thin air, they are 
all based on costs spelled out in GURPS rules on vehicle design and crew 
pay.
	The only way to establish whether or not drop tanks are economically 
viable in GT is to do some designs.  What I did was to compare the 3,000dton 
J-4 Tukera Freighter in FT before and after drop tanks.  Assuming 35 trips 
per year, 2 standard lighters for man-handling drop tanks, 1 ship per-day 
in-system, and fully re-usable drop tanks with a week of inexpensive 
refurbishing, I found a 44% drop in per-dton, per-parsec cargo costs.  
	The difference between these figures and Chris's early ones are, I 
think, jump number.  Chris worked things out for J-2, which is what most 
freight travels by.  I did J-4 because I figured that drop tanks would be 
used first along x-boat routes.  Based on the frequency of ship traffic I 
worked out when doing FT, I don't think drop tanks will find much use off 
Main or Feeder routes.  Note that disposable drop tanks are a non-starter in 
GT because fuel tanks are so hugely expensive under GT rules.
	Will drop tanks revolutionize interstellar trade in GT?  Not really.  
GT fuel tanks cost too much to keep a lot of them lying around so it will 
really be up to the lines to make use of them.  The lines are likely to 
convert to drop tanks along all their Main and some Feeder routes. It won't 
be cost effective to keep tanks around for the unpredictable tramp merchant 
traffic.  Once drop tanks are fully implemented they would be worth a +.5 
BTN on any J-4+ route they served.  Lower jump numbers don't get a big 
enough boost to show up on the course BTN scale.
	Will drop tanks revolutionize interstellar trade in "regular" 
Traveller?  This I can't answer because I haven't done the analysis.  
However, I'd like to point out that under FF&S2, jump drives are much less 
expensive and thrusters and powerplants are much more expensive.  This means 
that a space-tug big enough to capture and haul discarded drop tanks for a 
given ship class is going to be a significant fraction of the cost of that 
ship class.

>And you're ignoring the effect of an existing fleet of conventional ships.
>Say someone sets up a drop tank route and undercuts the previous line. It
>goes bankrupt. Its ships are sold for a fraction of their original value.
>The new owners have radically lower operating costs (since about 55% of
>operating costs are bank payments). Now they can outperform the drop tank
>ships.

	Particularly for the big shipping lines that have financed their ships 
out of retained earnings, this effect will be a powerful detterant to 
immediate adoption of drop tanks.  Since the lines are not held to a fixed 
value for their ships through the bank mortgage, they can just depreciate 
conventional designs and compete with the drop tank ships until the 
conventional designs wear out.  This will still be a huge financial blow to 
the shipping lines, but they won't have to go through bankruptcy to lower 
the asset value of their ships and make them price competitive.  This makes 
it likely that drop tank routes will only be added slowly as existing 
capacity is retired.  Doing otherwise raises the spectre of over-capacity 
and trade war, as discussed under that heading in Ch2 of Far Trader.

>>Gary, I've done the work. They do to Imperial trade and society what
>>railroads did to trade and society on Earth. For a start, you get mass
>>tourism and such - a 1 dton bunk puts a jump-6 return trip at about 2
>>months pay for many Imperial citizens.
>
>Is that necessarily a bad thing? How many canonical world writeups claim
>that the world's main income is from tourism? Quite a few IIRC. With
>conventional ticket prices these writeups are  --  unlikely, at least.
>With reduced prices, they become more plausible.

	As you well know Hans, the ticket and freight prices in Traveller have 
been too high for a long time.  Even without drop tanks they can be brought 
way down.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 99 04:51:41 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000suoqasug

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:49:28 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:42:12 +1100
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
> 
> We've seen an *opinion* by Chris Thrash that under GT rules Drop Tanks
had
> only a 15% cost advantage. Yup, only 15%, in an Imperium with interest
> rates in low single figures.

Actually, I did some analysis and came up with maybe a 25% advantage over
existing Jump-4 designs -- you may have missed that post.  The problem is,
that is still only half the difference between express (Jump-4+) and
conventional freight rates. Since most of the costs in a drop tank
operation (tug rental, etc.) are relatively fixed, this advantage will be
correspondingly smaller at lower jump numbers.

Rather than spend time and energy debating why drop tanks *can't* work the
way they're supposed to, why not figure out how they *can*? At least in GT,
drop tanks will be considerably more expensive than in CT/HG (>Cr80,000 per
dton, even with the "Cheap" option). Also, am I not correct that all these
analyses (including mine) hinge on drop tanks being reuseable? Perhaps this
is one source of difficulty. 

Marc Miller has said ("Jumpspace", JTAS#24) that jumpspace is inimicable to
all matter -- anything entering jumpspace is destroyed -- and that LH2 is
necessary for the formation of the jump bubble that protects the ship.
Further, he has said (T5 draft) that any object larger than the ship itself
disrupts jumpspace just as a planet does. Two additional elements are
required: infer that the timing of a drop tank operation is very close (a
matter of seconds, rather than minutes), and ignore for now such exotica as
the /Annic Nova/ and jump projectors (Clark's Third Law, if nothing else). 

The system looks like this: drop tanks provide LH2 to the jump drives right
up to the moment of jump -- what it is used for is another debate. They are
then jettisoned out of the developing jump bubble and destroyed in
jumpspace. Since there is no interval between using the LH2 and entering
jumpspace, a "jump station" larger than the ship would interfere with entry
into a stable jump (and might risk destruction as well), while one smaller
than the ship is simply a more expensive form of drop tank (and would be
destroyed). 

We are left with a system that is expensive (cost of replacing drop tanks
after every use) and potentially unreliable (incomplete separation of drop
tanks -- ask any fighter pilot). There may be applications, military and
civilian, where these factors are offset by operational necessity or a
profitable niche market, but they will be highly specialized -- as canon
suggests. This description is self-consistent and fits the facts so far as
I know them; why not move on to something more productive? We could even
debate what those operational necessities and niche markets might be.

All this is based on reasoning rather than analysis, of course. I'll get
back to the list with revised cost figures, based on drop tanks being
expended in use, and then we can see whether this is indeed an answer.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:02:33 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Spam

> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 99 09:15:06 EST
> From: rwm@tansoft.com
> Subject: Comments: Authenticated sender is < >
> 
> Home Based Travel Biz!!! Free Cruise!!$$

ObTrav: This sounds like a Patron for GT:Starships -- just change $$ to Cr
and add a 1-6 roll with the real score. Could a group of players without a
ship be enticed to fall for something like this? 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:15:53 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:45:46 +0200 (METDST)
> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks
> 
> And, just to twist Chris' tail a bit, let me point out that if the _Far
> Trader_ rules turns out to "prove" that drop tanks doesn't exist, then
> it is incompatible with G:T, because G:T _does_ mention drop tanks. So
> strictly speaking that would make the FT rules flawed ;-).

Heck, no -- I would never say that something attested in CT/GT canon
doesn't exist (though I might not focus on it, either); I leave that to
Marc Miller or Steve Jackson. Drop tanks are just a solution to a problem
anyway, same as farpoint stations. The [in-context] issues are what
problem(s) do they solve, what does it cost, and are there better ways to
do it?

The out-of-context issues are what effect *should* they have on trade (or,
more precisely, what effect do we *want* them to have), and how do we
justify that result within GT?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:14:44 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Ships 1.05.00

> inconvience.

Sumday i'll lern how da spel.



- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:24:04 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Starship Size

Adahma writes:
"I'm having a hard time deciding just how big a ship is 
based on tonnage.  Can anyone give me some "real life" 
comparisons, or is there a convert tonnage to square 
footage formula I missed? :P"

	IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), CT uses 13.5 cubic
	meters to the 'displacement' ton. This works out to
	1.5 x 3 x 3 m, or two 1.5 x 1.5 m squares on a floor
	plan which assumes 3 m to a level (a 0.75 m thick
	floor with gravetics, wires, hoses, vents, etc. and
	2.25 m from floor to ceiling). If you prefer feet 
	to meters: 1.5 m = 5', 3 m = 10', 0.75 m = 2.5', 
	2.25 m = 7.5' (approximately). Tonnage can be 
	played with a little: my staterooms are only four
	1.5 x 1.5 m squares, the rest is halls, lounge, air 
	lock, etc. About half of engineering tonnage can be 
	accessways, controls, spares, etc. Some of bridge 
	goes to seats and controls, some to sensors and 
	electronics, and some to halls, ship's locker, etc.
	My cargo bays are usually 4.5 m high (3.75 m floor 
	to ceiling). All said and done, if a design comes
	in within 5-10% of the right tonnage, that's cool
	with me.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:25:48 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Lets not forget the Gazelle Close Escort.  It was designed to require
drop
tanks to get its jump 5, when dropped.  Until they were replaced it
had
fuel only for a jump 2.  If the tanks were retained, it has a jump 4
capability due to the extra volume.

It does use the fuel right from the drop tanks to power the jump
drive.
The Gazelle was designed in CT or HG and had an internal 81 ton fuel
tank
with 100 ton drop tanks.  When making a jump 5 (dropping the tanks) it
required 150 tons of fuel.  When retaining the tanks and making a jump
4 it
used 160 tons of fuel.


Jimmy Simpson
>>>> (end quoted material)
Lets remember that in the Real World (tm) the Gazelle was designed
using a beta version of the High Guard rules, and so it doesn't conform
to the "normal" rules we keep trying to pin on it.  After all, it has 4
turrets on a 300 dton hull with 100 tons of drop tanks.  If you try to
bring it into strict compliance with HG, you either need to say the rule
of 1 turret per 100 tons is flexible, or those aren't _exactly_ drop
tanks.  For the sake of the current argument (and because I think it is
more correct), I will choose the latter option.  This is especially easy
since supposedly drop tanks are a TL15 technology, but the Gazelle is
TL14 manufacture.
Here is my take on the Gazelle's tankage:

The Gazelle was a test bed design, intended for patrol and anti-piracy
sweeps.  It was decided to test out the feasibility of drop tanks, which
were the new thing niggling at the edges of military thinking.  Because
the technology wasn't fully developed yet, there were some oddities of
this design.  The drop tanks are actually designed as regular fuel
tankage that happened to be located and plumbed in such a way that they
could be explosively detatched if needed.  Because they were normally
retained, and were considered part of the normal hull, they have part of
the radiators, Lanthanum grids, and other hull mounted items normally
part of a ship's hull.  Thus, if the drop tanks were dropped, the ship
would tend to overheat during battle situations because of the extra
heat load from an extra turret full of energy weapons.  These external
drop tanks also proved excessively vulnerable to enemy 
fire.  The sharply reduced Jump capability of a Gazelle which lost it's
drop tanks made it unsuitable to it's intended purpose, and there were
never more than a few thousand of this model made (a few thousand is
still a small number when there are more than eleven thousand member
worlds and lots more client states that need to see the flag fairly
often).  This early model of the Gazelle class tended to destroyed in
battle or have major accidents significantly more often than
conventional vessels and set back the drop tank program by quite a
number of years.  A later model was produced with only three turretts,
which allowed continued full functionality even with the drop tanks
dropped.  However, the reduced firepower in the retained configuration
made this a less desirable option and only a few hundred of these were
produced.  A major variant renamed the Fiery class made the tanks
integral rather than droppable, and radically modified the hull to make
it streamlined.  The fiery class was the most successful of the three
and functioned adequately in it's designed role (though still rather
poorly in straight battles).

Thoughts and/or flames are appropriate at this point.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:32:20 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Gazelle (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

Joseph Kimball wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Gazelle was a test bed design, intended for patrol and anti-piracy
sweeps.  It was decided to test out the feasibility of drop tanks, which
were the new thing niggling at the edges of military thinking.  Because
the technology wasn't fully developed yet, there were some oddities of
this design.  
<snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very good ideas here, Joe. It takes a game problem and makes some
nice background history out of it. 

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:42:10 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)

Dave Strebe schrieb:
> 
> Jens Maskus wrote:
> 
> > Lords of Thunder
> >
> > A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> >
> > Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale
> > <snip>
> 
> uh do we have an english translation of this?....or french maybe?

Gateway Sector. It is the year 1119 since the foundation of the
Imperium. 
The imperial influence is all but no existent. While the Imperium
considers this sector as a buffer-zone, an other danger threatens this
sector. In 1106 a superior battlefleet of the Xuruk Emipre, a K'Kree
splinter-state, attacked and overwhelmed the inferior defence-fleet at
Xabthar. .....

<being to tired to translate the rest :-)>


For the rest, Jens wants to play a PBEM based on Lords of thunder in a
3d-version of the Gateway-Sector using (mostly) MT. He is searching for
players.

One of the conditions of playing is not having read MegaTraveller
Journal 4 (which is bad for me), another one is Jens intent to do the
whole thing in german (which might be not so good for some other
people).


Tschau (= Bye)
	Holger Paradin Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:45:40 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)

Jens Maskus schrieb:
> 
> Lords of Thunder
> 
> A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> 
> Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale

....


Hallo Jens,

Ich wrde gerne mitmachen, aber ich kenne Lords of Thunder (Super das
Teil).

Gute Reise
Tschau,
	Holger 'Paradin' Kadlez


P.S.
Paradin@gmx.de  ist die bessere Addresse in meinem Fall.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:49:05 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht 

Dave Strebe schrieb:
> 
> Jens Maskus wrote:
> 
> > Lords of Thunder
> >
> > A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> >
> > Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale
> > <snip>
> 
> uh do we have an english translation of this?....or french maybe?

Gateway Sector. It is the year 1119 since the foundation of the
Imperium. 
The imperial influence is all but no existent. While the Imperium
considers this sector as a buffer-zone, an other danger threatens this
sector. In 1106 a superior battlefleet of the Xuruk Emipre, a K'Kree
splinter-state, attacked and overwhelmed the inferior defence-fleet at
Xabthar. .....

<being to tired to translate the rest :-)>


For the rest, Jens wants to play a PBEM based on Lords of thunder in a
3d-version of the Gateway-Sector using (mostly) MT. He is searching for
players.

One of the conditions of playing is not having read MegaTraveller
Journal 4 (which is bad for me), another one is Jens intent to do the
whole thing in german (which might be not so good for some other
people).


Tschau (= Bye)
	Holger Paradin Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:50:20 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder

Jens Maskus schrieb:
> 
> Lords of Thunder
> 
> A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> 
> Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale

....


Hallo Jens,

Ich wrde gerne mitmachen, aber ich kenne Lords of Thunder (Super das
Teil).

Gute Reise
Tschau,
	Holger 'Paradin' Kadlez


P.S.
Paradin@gmx.de  ist die bessere Addresse in meinem Fall.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:52:25 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:06:27 EDT, TravelrTNE@aol.com
>> They wouldn't if you have collapsed them inside the the hull
>> (or maybe they have a section of the hull on the outside and
>> just collapse down against the ship.
>>
>> The thing is that there are a about gazillion ways you could
>> design them.

>Ok, design us some.  :-)  Then design us a jump drive that they'll work with.

I refer you to the schemes that I and 2 or 3 other people have,
already posted on how you might have  collapable tank.  If anyone
actually posts objects to them, I will get into issues like
the fact you can can have cells that empty and start collapsing
before the whole tank is collapsed.

In the meantime, you aren't realy in a postion to offer a
challenge.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:00:55 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder

Holger Kadlez schrieb:
> 
> Jens Maskus schrieb:
> >
> > Lords of Thunder
> >
> > A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> >
> > Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale
> 
> ....
> 
> Hallo Jens,
> 
> Ich wrde gerne mitmachen, aber ich kenne Lords of Thunder (Super das
> Teil).
> 
> Gute Reise
> Tschau,
>         Holger 'Paradin' Kadlez
> 
> P.S.
> Paradin@gmx.de  ist die bessere Addresse in meinem Fall.


Sorry, wrong address.

Bye,
	Holger Paradin Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:01:11 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder

Holger Kadlez schrieb:
> 
> Jens Maskus schrieb:
> >
> > Lords of Thunder
> >
> > A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> >
> > Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale
> 
> ....
> 
> Hallo Jens,
> 
> Ich wrde gerne mitmachen, aber ich kenne Lords of Thunder (Super das
> Teil).
> 
> Gute Reise
> Tschau,
>         Holger 'Paradin' Kadlez
> 
> P.S.
> Paradin@gmx.de  ist die bessere Addresse in meinem Fall.


Sorry, wrong address.

Bye,
	Holger Paradin Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:04:27 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

I encountered an interesting factoid (veracity undetermined)
while reading the soc.history.what-if newsgroup.  On my way to
the bank to get some cash, it was percolating through what's left
of my mind, and teamed up with some arcane constructions that can
be used to justify some things that would _seem_ to be against
Traveller canon.  This was the result...

Canonically, the Imperium doesn't allow polities to join, only
worlds.  However, it's equally canon that associations - customs
unions and postal unions, for example - between member planets
can be formed; the only outright prohibition would appear to be
tarriff/commerce unions.  Additionally, the Imperium does not
interfere with the internal governance of a world, and there are
records that show that a member planet may own another member
planet.  Thus, the prohibition on polities seems to mean only
that the Imperium won't recognize them as such.

The interesting factoid is that if the Grimaldis can't produce an
heir to the Monaco throne, the principality reverts to being part
of France.

*Poster's note to referees: Change names and dates as
appropriate, dammit!

. . . . . . . . . .
NewsNet Special Alert

CARLSMONT CITY, 110-1105 - Grand Prince Isharii, Prince Royal of
the Principality of Carlsmont, has been seriously injured in an
air-raft accident while returning from a ski holiday in the
northern mountains.  He is undergoing surgery at ...

Grand Princess Eloise was also injured in the accident, though
apparently not seriously.  She is remaining by her husband's side
during this ordeal.  Doctors are maintaining a close watch on
her, to ensure that her unborn child, the heir to the
Principality throne, is healthy. ...

The young couple, celebrating their second anniversary, had taken
this holiday as their last opportunity to enjoy their favorite
recreation before Her Highness was to be prohibited by her
pregnancy from engaging in overly strenuous physical activity.
...



CARLSMONT CITY, 111-1105 - A weary-appearing Dr. Theoden
Kamehameha-Galishakaa reported that Grand Prince Isharii's
condition has been stabilized, although His Highness is in a
coma.  His condition has been upgraded from Critical II to
Critical I, and he is on full life-support in the Critical Care
Unit at the hospital.  The medical team assigned to His Highness
are reporting that they have every hope that he will make a
recovery, but caution that His Highness's injuries are quite
severe. ...



CARLSMONT CITY, 113-1105 - Doctors for Grand Princess Eloise have
announced that Her Highness will not be able to give interviews
in the immediate future.  Her personal physician, rushed to the
hospital on short notice late last night, refused to do more than
say that she is in no danger, although weak from the stress of
recent events. ...



NewsNet Special Alert

CARLSMONT CITY, 115-1105 - Although no official word has come
from doctors or the Royal Household, NewsNet has learned that
Grand Princess Eloise miscarried two days ago.  Although
distraught, Her Highness is apparently healthy. ...

Doctors remain optimistic about Grand Prince Isharii's prospects,
although he is still deep in a coma.  His Highness is progressing
well, and there is every likelihood that he will improve enough
to be removed from full life-support within the next few weeks.
...



NewsNet Special Alert

CARLSMONT CITY, 118-1105 - Unofficial reports from sources at the
hospital indicate that Grand Princess Eloise was rushed into
surgery early this morning.  One hour later, hospital
administrators banned the press from the premises, and the Royal
Guard assisted in the expulsion. ...

Reports from the Diplomatic Quarter and from Government watchers
seem to indicate that both the State and Foreign Ministries have
cancelled all appointments, and called in all personnel who are
on leave. ...



CARLSMONT CITY, 119-1105 - Duke Shaamika, the Ambassador to
Carlsmont from the Kingdom of Seetay-Lumyere, was abruptly
summoned to the Ministry of State this afternoon.  He emerged a
short time later, but refused to answer any questions concerning
his summons. ...



CARLSMONT CITY, 121-1105 - A spokesman for the Ministry of State
today officially announced today that Grand Princess Eloise had
indeed miscarried eight days ago, when she stopped giving
interviews.  He professed no knowledge of any subsequent surgery,
although he stated that the doctors had Her Highness under close
observation. ...



CARLSMONT CITY, 123-1105 - The Ministry of State announced that
His Highness, Grand Prince Isharii, had been moved out of the
Critical Care Unit and into the Intensive Care Unit, although his
condition has not as yet been officially upgraded from Critical
I.  Grand Princess Eloise is reported to be in good condition,
though she continues under observation.  The Ministry spokesman
again denied any knowledge of surgery subsequent to Her
Highness's miscarriage. ...



CARLSMONT CITY, 124-1105 - Although no statement has come from
the Ministry of Defense or from the Seetay-Lumyere Embassy,
observers have reported to NewsNet that the Carlsmont Detachment
of the Seetay-Lumyere Combined Arms appears to have recalled all
personnel from leave. ...



NewsNet Special Report - 125-1105

Although Carlsmont and Seetay-Lumyere have had a close
relationship these past three centuries, few people realize just
how close - and how fragile - that relationship is.  NewsNet's
Historical Research Section has obtained a copy of the Charter
granted by the King of Seetay-Lumyere to the first Grand Prince
of Carlsmont, and direct ancestor of Grand Prince Isharii,
Lavrenti Artekata.  The charter specifies that if the Artekatas
cannot produce a male heir to the throne of Carlsmont, the grant
shall be revoked, and Carlsmont shall revert to being a province
of the Kingdom of Seetay-Lumyere. ...



CARLSMONT CITY, 127-1105 - The Ministry of State announced today
that Grand Prince Isharii has been removed from full
life-support, although he still requires assistance to breath.
He has not regained consciousness as yet, though his doctors
remain guardedly optimistic.  Grand Princess Eloise remains in
good condition under observation; the Ministry expressed hope
that she will be willing to give at least a short interview in
the near future. ...

. . . . . . . . .

At any time after the report of 119-1105, the PCs may be
approached by someone representing either Seetay-Lumyere or the
Carlsmont Ministry of State.  The contact should be a close
personal friend of one of the PCs, and both the contact and the
PC should have a history of trusting the other to be discreet
when necessary.  The contact emphasizes that this is certainly
necessary this time, to the extent that all of the other times
are public announcements in comparison.  He then hands the PCs a
packet containing a photograph and other information, and briefs
the players as follows:

"His Highness is in worse condition than has been made public;
his doctors generally agree that it is unlikely that he will
regain consciousness.  This would not have been a problem had Her
Highness not miscarried, as an heir to the throne would have been
assured - in-vitro fertilization was used to assure that her
child would be male.  Normally, even the miscarriage would not be
a problem, as we could repeat the procedure to produce an heir.
However, Her Highness was indeed rushed into surgery on 118;
internal injuries sustained in the accident made it necessary to
perform a hysterectomy upon her.  Thus, we have no way of
producing another heir descended from His Highness.

"However, a re-reading of the Charter, and a consultation with
the Ambassador from Seetay-Lumyere, has given us an
interpretation of the Charter that we can use to preserve the
independence of Carlsmont.  Discretion in this is necessary
solely because of the need to avoid panic; while most
Carlsmontites would have no objection to Carlsmont becoming part
of the Kingdom of Seetay-Lumyere, there _is_ a small nationalist
movement that would resort to terrorism to prevent it, if
possible.  The Ambassador from Seetay-Lumyere has agreed to
assist us in maintaining our independence, and has messaged his
King accordingly.  The local defense forces were put on a
low-level alert against the possibility of terrorism were we to
be forced to announce the full state of affairs with no heir to
step in.

"The information you have been given in this packet will
hopefully be enough for you to find the Grand Prince's exiled
brother, Ramduur, and secretly bring him back here to take over
as Grand Prince.  His Highness would have brought Ramduur back
after his mother's death last year, but the Privy Secretary, who
had served His Highness's parents until His Late Highness's
death, and supported Ramduur's banishment, advised against it.
The Secretary is fully aware of the current situation, and agrees
that Ramduur must be brought back, although he has expressed
distaste for the man.

"You are not the only ones attempting to find Ramduur.  We have
agents on most planets in the area; orders have already gone out.
Wear these collar pins at all times; they will identify you to
the other agents, who will be wearing similar pins. They will
help you to the best of their ability; you must help them to the
best of yours.  Nobody who is not wearing one of these pins must
know of your mission; not even Ramduur, when and if you find him.

"Obviously, speed is of the essence; while we don't know how long
we can keep the subterfuge up, there will be a point beyond which
people will be suspicious, and from there, things will degrade.
If you can manage to find Ramduur, we can present him right up to
the moment that Seetay-Lumyere accepts that we cannot produce an
heir; after that, it won't matter.

"The packet actually contains information on several cadet
branches of the Artekata family; if Ramduur turns out to be dead
without male issue, any of the individuals listed as eligible may
be brought back instead.  The individuals are marked in order of
preference, but if you find one who's not at the top of the list,
don't waste time - bring him in.  I'd say to do that even if
you're not sure about Ramduur, but there are political nuances
that I'm not prepared to go into right now.  Go for Ramduur, and
grab one of the others only if Ramduur is an impossibility.

"I can guarantee you a payment of Cr100,000 from the Ministry of
State's discretionary budget if any heir is presented, whether
you're the one that brought him back or not.  If no heir is
brought back, there won't be a Carlsmont to pay you.  Further
payment would necessarily be at the Grand Prince's discretion.

"I wish I could do more for you on this, but I'm definitely
bending - hell, breaking outright - the rules as it is - and
quite frankly, the only reason I'm sure I won't be shot for
treason for telling you the situation is because only His
Highness can pronounce the death sentence.  The agents off-world
won't question you, with the pins, though, so once you're out of
here we're both safe.  Good luck!"

 - - - - - - - -

*Notes to the Referee

This is obviously suitable as a background for other adventures,
and it can develop in any direction that the referee wants.
Further developments in the news are at the referee's discretion;
remember jump lag in dating them if they go off-world at all.

Ramduur was exiled by the current Grand Prince's father because
of a sex scandal.  It will be trivial for the PCs to learn this.
By now, most Carlsmontites have forgotten the scandal, or would
brush it off as a minor indiscretion, so if Ramduur can be found,
he will readily be accepted as the new Grand Prince, if the
populace of Carlsmont know that the Grand Prince is unlikely to
recover, or as Regent if they don't.  Seetay-Lumyere will accept
him, as well.  Other heirs will not gain such easy acceptance;
Seetay-Lumyere will insist on verifying the lineage, and the
populace won't trust the heir or the Government.  If this comes
to pass, there will be an upsurge in nationalist feeling, and
growing unrest that can only be assuaged after the people have
seen that the new Grand Prince is fair and friendly, like the
old, and in control of the Government, not under the Government's
thumb.

While he has not been prominent, Ramduur has made no effort to
hide his identity, and it should be easy to pick up his 'trail'.
However, he joined the Imperial Navy about seven years ago, and
at last report was a Lieutenant in a squadron that has seen
action and taken casualties recently. It is up to the referee's
discretion whether Ramduur - who is/was serving under his own
name - is dead, alive, or somewhere in between.  Several of the
other individuals are quite suitable as heirs, being business,
government, or military leaders; others may be adequate, being
followers rather than leaders; a number of them are absolutely
unsuitable (but may be the only ones available), being 'dropouts'
of one type or another (convicted criminals, substance abusers,
etc.) or incapable of even understanding the situation (mentally
retarded or victims of brain damage/injuries, etc.).  Physical
handicaps are no problem (and several of the cadet candidates
have them), provided that either (a) they already have male issue
to be their heir, or (b) they are capable of siring children so
that they can have an heir after ascending the throne.

At the referee's discretion, an added twist can be that Ramduur
is Isharii's _twin_ brother, which opens up the possibility that
Carlsmont can use him to make the Grand Prince have a "miraculous
recovery".  If Ramduur _is_ a twin, the players will not be told
this, although if any of the PCs knows what the Grand Prince
looks like (referee's discretion), it will be evident from the
(old) photograph that there is a _strong_ family resemblance.  In
order for this to work, Seetay-Lumyere must be kept from knowing
that Ramduur has been found.  In that event, it is entirely
possible that the Government of Carlsmont will feel it necessary
to take actions to ensure that the PCs do not blow the plot.

In generating further events on Carlsmont, remember that crises
like this seem to have a flurry of activity at the beginning,
when the situation is first developing, then they settle down to
a stable state, where everyone is waiting for a change, and then
either they degrade slowly when it is apparent that things
_aren't_ going to change, but those in charge aren't willing to
acknowledge it, or they rapidly come to a head, when something
serious happens, possibly (though not necessarily) making it
clear that the truth had not been told earlier.  The Carlsmont
government will try to keep the lid on as long as possible, but
the longer they do so, the more complex the lies have to get, and
the more pressure from Seetay-Lumyere will be brought to bear.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #471
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 472



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Economics of drop tanks 
Re:  
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Traveller related books
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
MT Space Combat with non-MT Ship Designs
Re: Economics of drop tanks
K'Kree Fightercraft (was re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction)
Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Poser in Traveller
RE:  Saving the Throne
Re: MT Space Combat with non-MT Ship Designs
Re: Spooky (was Re: Keith Lost Supplements)
Re: K'Kree Fightercraft (was re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction)
Re: Poser in Traveller
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Failed Societies
Experience Systems
Non-reusable jump tank idea...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:58:52 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 

Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:37:26 EDT, TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>> >> Well, I think I have.  I think that presenting thing like
>> >
>> >Except you haven't.  "Think" is hardly enough.
>>
>> Well, I'm willing let those who read this make up their own
>> minds.  As the whether I have suceeded, you are hardly an
>> objective view point.
>
>Pot, Kettle?  Give some objective analysis that doesn't "support" your
>preconceived conclusions and you might even sway me.  I don't think you have
>anything but strawmen up your sleeves, though I would be glad to see
>otherwise.  You have some assumptions that COULD actually be valid (if the
>economics rules were altered, though), but you've given nothing beyond your
>opinion to support it.

Gary, you have thrown generalities, strawmen, etc at me all along,
and tried to accuse me of the doing the so at the same time.  I
asked to stick to the subject and you contiued.  I stopped resonding
to your post (giving you the last word) and you were the one who jumped
into something I posted in response to Hans with more genralities.

I have responded to arguements with arguements.  I have posted
more analysis and secifics than you have.  I am also willing
to rest on what I have posted with others without having to
"claim victory" in a revisionist way.  Before I was just not
responding to most of what you post.  I guess I will just
have to stop reading you posts too.

[A have nothing more to say]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:55:29 -0700
From: "Vanquer" <Vanquer@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re:  

There will be some real hell to pay if you EVER SPAM me again !

> Home Based Travel Biz!!! Free Cruise!!$$
>
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> As a member of our team you can earn a
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> while working from home. Make your Vocation.....your Vacation.
>
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>
> * Earn $2000 - $5000 Weekly-Starting Within 1-4 Weeks!
> * 65% Profit Paid Daily
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> * High Tech Training & Support
> * NOT MLM, 100X More Profitable
> * Multi Trillion Dollar Travel Industry
>
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>
> This is not a hobby! Serious Inquires Only
>
> Call the number below for more information
>              There is No Obligation
>         24 Hour Toll Free Message
>                1-800-914-1861
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:02:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

>Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:05:42 -0700
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>

>David P. Summers wrote:
>
>> >There appears to be about seven or eight of us in the Bay Area, if my list
>> >of folks going to BayCon is right.
>>
>> I'm probably running something.  Maybe GURPS Traveller or GURPS
>> Bunnies and Burrows.
>
>Gonna show friday?

To the con?

I probably will just show up one day Sat. or Sunday.  (prob
Sat.).  Getting out of work in time to make it up is too much....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 99 06:12:42 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000sgqygcgi

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:23:24 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Walter Smith writes:
>
>> Seriously though, what would a centaurs 'pilots seat'
>> look like for a fighter?

A long bench that curves up at the front where the controls
and data displays are?  Think of a K'Kree riding a motor
cycle.  Toss in a VR helmet and you complete the biker
motif.

> It would be carefully sculpted to fit whichever K'Kree
> client race was intended to use the fightercraft. With
> a K'Kree's claustrophobia and hatred of being alone, I
> can't see a centaur climbing into a small craft of 
> almost any kind.
>
> It's possible that K'Kree won't even build the things.
> The idea of creating a weapons system one of their
> client races can use but they can't use themselves may
> rub them the wrong way.


The claustrophobia and herd mentally can be fooled to
some degree by a high quality VR rig.  The view from
the inside would be a wide open cockpit populated by
other K'Kree AIs that represent weapons, navigation,
and engineering.  Thus, the pilot is surrounded by
a virtual crew of technically proficient K'Kree that
mimic all the automated functions and displays within
a normal fighter.

  T'kor's labored breathing and foaming blood spoke
  volumes.  Navigation was down for the count.  He
  could smell the engineer's fear as he headed back
  for a second pass.  "Weapons?"  The apparition that
  was the fourth crewman nodded from it's acceleration
  couch.  "Fully charged."
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:29:13 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Traveller related books

I found an interesting book at the library a few days ago called _Lunar
Descent_ by Allen Steele, Ace Books, ISBN 0-441-50485-X.
Our game Traveller is mentioned directly in the text on page 36 along
with D&D, James Bond, and GURPS (though for some reason it is misspelled
with only a single L).  The reference is slightly negative, talking
about how a con-man learned how to change identities/personas easily. 
On the other hand, it is a reference to our favorite game in a
non-Traveller publication.
The book is a near-future colonization of the Moon novel, and has some
fun ideas about corporations and such.  There are some possible tie-ins
to Traveller one could use for a scenario or two.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:31:13 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> I encountered an interesting factoid (veracity undetermined)
> while reading the soc.history.what-if newsgroup.  On my way to
> the bank to get some cash, it was percolating through what's left
> of my mind, and teamed up with some arcane constructions that can
> be used to justify some things that would _seem_ to be against
> Traveller canon.  This was the result...
> 
> NewsNet Special Alert
> 
> CARLSMONT CITY, 110-1105 - Grand Prince Isharii, Prince Royal of
> the Principality of Carlsmont, has been seriously injured in an
> air-raft accident while returning from a ski holiday in the
> northern mountains.  He is undergoing surgery at ...
> 

Snip of excellent adventure idea.

The one fly in the ointment here is the known Imperial practice of
freezing ova and sperm for later need, particularly for higher ranking
nobles.

Thus it would be a relatively simple matter to produce an heir, using a
surrogate to bring the heir to term.

More to the point, since it is the _Prince's_ line that needs
continuation, and presumably extracting the sperm is a viable procedure,
the Princess need not enter into the picture at all, only a surrogate
mother.

Now these plot complications can be dealt with by simply invoking a
clause in the agreement that the legal heir must be the natural
offspring of the prince and his lawfully constituted spouse.

1) Her frozen ova could have gone missing. An enterprising young tech at
the Royal cryogenics facility could have heard about this and
immediately realized the value of that little canister currently
residing in liguid nitrogen. She has stolen it and is planning on
extorting the Royal Family. 

Two game possibilites here:

The royal family has contacted the PC's to _discreetly_ find her and
recover the ova, either by force or negotiation.

_She_ contacts the PC's to act as go-betweens...

2) As above, but agents of Seetay-Lumyere have stolen the frozen ova.

The PC's are sent to find them and recover the ova, or failing that,
expose them for their crime.

3) As above, but the tech is secretly a member of that small nationalist
movement. They know full well the details of the original agreement, and
are forcing the dynastic and independence crisis to move the populace to
their side.

The PC's are recruited to infiltrate the group, and recover the ova.

As the saying goes...

    ...much hilarity ensues...;->


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:35:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: MT Space Combat with non-MT Ship Designs

Greetings, All,

I'm looking for opinions and suggestions regarding the use of non-MT 
ship design systems with the MT ship combat rules.  Which ship design 
system would you recommend under these conditions?  If anyone out 
there has experience crosses systems like this, how difficult is it 
to utilize MT ship combat with other design systems?

(BTW, I truely hope this doesn't spawn any sort of flame war.  I'm 
just looking for input.  Thanks, all.)

Thanks for your time.  I look forward to hearing your responses.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:39:48 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:42:10 -0500 (CDT)
> From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
> Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks
> 
> 	The only way to establish whether or not drop tanks are economically 
> viable in GT is to do some designs.  What I did was to compare the
3,000dton 
> J-4 Tukera Freighter in FT before and after drop tanks.  Assuming 35
trips 
> per year, 2 standard lighters for man-handling drop tanks, 1 ship per-day

> in-system, and fully re-usable drop tanks with a week of inexpensive 
> refurbishing, I found a 44% drop in per-dton, per-parsec cargo costs.  
> 	The difference between these figures and Chris's early ones are, I 
> think, jump number.  Chris worked things out for J-2, which is what most 
> freight travels by.  I did J-4 because I figured that drop tanks would be

> used first along x-boat routes.

No, I modified the same ship you did, Jim, for the same reasons. The
discrepency is probably due to different assumptions. In particular, I used
a tug instead of lighters, on the theory (stated explicitly in Supp 7:
Traders and Gunboats) that drop tanks can only be "replaced" at a starport
or base, and so either have to be picked up as cargo (takes time) or tugged
back to port. Tugs are more expensive, etc., etc.

This just serves to illustrate how squirrelly pronouncements about what
*would* or *would not* happen with drop tanks really are. That word
"replaced", for example -- does it mean, "reattached"? or "buy a new one"?
Big difference.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:44:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: K'Kree Fightercraft (was re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction)

Todd A. Zircher wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The claustrophobia and herd mentally can be fooled to
some degree by a high quality VR rig.  The view from
the inside would be a wide open cockpit populated by
other K'Kree AIs that represent weapons, navigation,
and engineering.  Thus, the pilot is surrounded by
a virtual crew of technically proficient K'Kree that
mimic all the automated functions and displays within
a normal fighter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is an interesting idea, but I don't see it happening.
From what I've read of the K'Kree, they are one of the most
conservative and intolerant races in known space.

To them, it is inconcievable that a K'Kree would willingly
strap himself into a little box all alone. It doesn't matter that they
can use high-tech to pretend otherwise, they'll still know they're
doing something un-K'Kree. The pilot will know, the designer will
know, the government of the 2000 worlds will know - and none of
them would even consider such an idea.

It's not like they normally have small fightercraft, and had some pilots
who couldn't use them without help - none of the K'Kree is suited to
be a fighter pilot, unless they suffer from abberations like "no discomfort
in close quarters" or "likes to be alone". I don't think a K'Kree with those
abberencies would survive long, btw.

Using technology to overcome a phobia is something that is done
when the phobia is abnormal and most members of society don't have
it. To a K'Kree, claustrophobia and unwillingness to be alone aren't
abnormal - their spaceflight and space combat solutions will include
lots of room and lots of crew in the same way our ship designs include
heat and atmosphere.

I'd say that the K'Kree will fill the fightercraft niche with drones.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:42:10 +0200
From: Holger Kadlez <hk1@stud.mw.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: Re: PBEM Lords of Thunder Spieler Gesucht (!! deutschsprachig !!)

Dave Strebe schrieb:
> 
> Jens Maskus wrote:
> 
> > Lords of Thunder
> >
> > A Traveller Play by EMail Roleplaying Game
> >
> > Gateway Sektor. Es ist das Jahr 1119 seit Grndung des Imperiums. Die imperiale
> > <snip>
> 
> uh do we have an english translation of this?....or french maybe?

Gateway Sector. It is the year 1119 since the foundation of the
Imperium. 
The imperial influence is all but no existent. While the Imperium
considers this sector as a buffer-zone, an other danger threatens this
sector. In 1106 a superior battlefleet of the Xuruk Emipre, a K'Kree
splinter-state, attacked and overwhelmed the inferior defence-fleet at
Xabthar. .....

<being to tired to translate the rest :-)>


For the rest, Jens wants to play a PBEM based on Lords of thunder in a
3d-version of the Gateway-Sector using (mostly) MT. He is searching for
players.

One of the conditions of playing is not having read MegaTraveller
Journal 4 (which is bad for me), another one is Jens intent to do the
whole thing in german (which might be not so good for some other
people).


Tschau (= Bye)
	Holger Paradin Kadlez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:45:20 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

< much snipping >

I really liked that.  Good Job!


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:56:35 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Poser in Traveller

I just got my mitts on Far Trader.  The artwork in the bottom corner of
page 23 looks like the figures (both the female human and the small raptor)
 were created using the 3D Poser package.
Cool Stuff!


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it. http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:59:54 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: RE:  Saving the Throne

Excellent campaign idea.   I could see adventures for starships, merchants, 
and mercenaries coming out of this.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:03:16 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: MT Space Combat with non-MT Ship Designs

At 03:35 PM 4/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Greetings, All,
>
>I'm looking for opinions and suggestions regarding the use of non-MT 
>ship design systems with the MT ship combat rules.  Which ship design 
>system would you recommend under these conditions?  If anyone out 
>there has experience crosses systems like this, how difficult is it 
>to utilize MT ship combat with other design systems?
>
>(BTW, I truely hope this doesn't spawn any sort of flame war.  I'm 
>just looking for input.  Thanks, all.)
>
>Thanks for your time.  I look forward to hearing your responses

You won't see any complaints from me on this!  The one thing I really liked
about FFS1/2 was the ability to build custom weapons, specifically the
Meson and PAWs.  If there would be a way to simulate the multiple
accelerators in MT, I for one would love to hear it.  

OTOH, the best part of the ship construction rules, IMO, from MT was that
it started to scale certain technologies for the higher tech levels.  At
TL-17 the J-Fuel required per parsec begins to drop.  The engines have
reached the best range possible (short of some canon changes ;-) ), so now
they get more efficient.  I also liked the optimized packs that could be
acquired.  

YMMV

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:59:04 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Spooky (was Re: Keith Lost Supplements)

From: scharlto@ifsna.com <scharlto@ifsna.com>
Subject: Spooky (was Re: Keith Lost Supplements)


>Hey all


Hey, fellow 'Zoner;

>Yesterday afternoon, I was driving through Apache Junction on my was back
>to Tucson, and I thought to myself "I wonder what's up with those Keith
>supplements?"  Paul does or did live around there, so somehow that started
>the thgouht process, I guess.


    Well, I was to, but that was in Sun City.

>So I come into work today, open my mail, and find a bunch of e-mails about
>the very same subject, with a response from Paul.


    Same here, when I came home.

>So, I am forced to wonder - are you all some sort of Psionic Zhodani spies
>or something?  Get outta my mind!


    No, though we do have a Psionics Institute in Phoenix.

>Steve Charlton


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:18:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: K'Kree Fightercraft (was re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction)

Walter Smith wrote:
> 

> This is an interesting idea, but I don't see it happening.
> >From what I've read of the K'Kree, they are one of the most
> conservative and intolerant races in known space.

True, it's one reason everyone wants to make BBQ out of 'em.
 
> Using technology to overcome a phobia is something that is done
> when the phobia is abnormal and most members of society don't have
> it. To a K'Kree, claustrophobia and unwillingness to be alone aren't
> abnormal - their spaceflight and space combat solutions will include
> lots of room and lots of crew in the same way our ship designs include
> heat and atmosphere.
> 
> I'd say that the K'Kree will fill the fightercraft niche with drones.

However, the K'Kree have a number of subject races as part of the 2000
Suns; it's only carnivores they have a big thing about. They certainly
would use these subject races in the appropriate situations. It might
take 'em a thousand years to do so, but once they do decide, that's what
all the K'Kree battleships will use for pilots.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:20:20 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Poser in Traveller

Yup.  They were (the Raptor is modified though with a slimmer snout).  A
version of that shot is actually in two places in the book.  I rendered each
and then just painted the details, like each characters PDA, the Raptor's
headset, the shoulder patch, and the Raptor's carry pouch.

You can download color versions of some shots at my website.

Jesse - "Free Trader" 3D artist
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

"If Captain Picard had just replicated some damn gauss rifles, none of this
would have happened!" - Ensign Lynch, just before assimilation by the Borg
Collective, "Star Trek, First Contact"


- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 2:06 PM
Subject: Poser in Traveller


>I just got my mitts on Far Trader.  The artwork in the bottom corner of
>page 23 looks like the figures (both the female human and the small raptor)
> were created using the 3D Poser package.
>Cool Stuff!
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
>burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
>That's our story and we're sticking to it.
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:21:44 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

In a message dated 4/19/99 12:33:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
HPJKimba@ihc.com writes:

<< Here is my take on the Gazelle's tankage:
 
 The Gazelle was a test bed design, intended for patrol and anti-piracy
 sweeps.  It was decided to test out the feasibility of drop tanks, ...>>

best justification that fits CANON for this ship that I've seen yet...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:27:52 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

>Also Judaism is matrilineal. If the mother is a Jew, the child is. If not, 
>then not. Judaism still exists (so I think some matriarchal cultures can 
>succeed) , despite numerous efforts to the contrary...though to be fair, it 
>will probably be long gone and absorbed into Christianity and/or Islam by the 
>time the Solomani conquer the Vilani...

That's been said for the last two thousand years, too....




          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:10:00 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Experience Systems

	I was just wondering what everybody thought about the various systems 
for character experience in the various Traveller editions.  As best as I 
remember, they went something like this:

	CT:   you rolled him up, that's the end of the story, unless you 
undergo long-term training.
	Mercenary: Instruction skill can be used to teach new skills
	MT:  adventure tally points can add up to a chance to get a new skill.
	TNE: I don't really remember
	T4: 1-3 experience points  per adventure,  Each point allows a chance 
to improve 1 skill (roll above skill on 1d6).
	T4.1: get 1 exp star per session on most effectively used skill.  At 
end of year, skill with most stars is raised by 1, other stars erased.

	I personally liked the T4 system since it allowed you to award points 
based on outcome of the adventure as a reward system.  

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:03:51 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
solid?  If so, could you just freeze a chunk of it, carry it with you until
jump, thaw it as its being used and *presto* no tank left.  

Alternatively, what about containing the LH2 in some sort of super light
construction foam.  then just let the foam fall apart....



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #472
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 473



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: the Spam
Re: Failed Societies
Re: Experience Systems
Re: Failed Societies
re: failed societies
Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Failed Societies
Re: K'Kree Fighter Craft
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: K'Kree Fighter Craft
External Grapples (FT Question)
Good Game
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Failed Societies
Re: Failed Societies
Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules
Re: Failed Societies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 99 08:26:52 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000dvbzttlr

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:21:12 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: the Spam

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- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:50:52 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

In a message dated 4/19/99 2:41:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< Also Judaism is matrilineal. If the mother is a Jew, the child is. If not, 
 >then not. Judaism still exists (so I think some matriarchal cultures can 
 >succeed) , despite numerous efforts to the contrary...though to be fair, it 
 >will probably be long gone and absorbed into Christianity and/or Islam by 
the 
 >time the Solomani conquer the Vilani...
 
 That's been said for the last two thousand years, too....
  >>

well being Jewish; I hope you're right, but the numbers don't jibe (a billion 
Christians and Muslims vs. 18 million Jews). At Least the non-religious ones 
will be absorbed, though the Orthodox might keep their identities.

Ob Trav: maybe Mel Brooks was right: "Jews in Space!" (from History of the 
World, Part One)...:-) I can see it now: a whole planet inhabited by Chasidim 
(the ones with the black suits and hats, and the long curly side hair...). I 
wonder how much it costs to ship Kosher food from Terra?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:55:44 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Experience Systems

In a message dated 4/19/99 3:14:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AveNelso@aol.com 
writes:

<< I personally liked the T4 system since it allowed you to award points 
 based on outcome of the adventure as a reward system.   >>

I played CT with a GM who gave out a " one/tenth " of a skill level for each 
skill (ior even a characteristic!) successfully used in an adventure. As 
fractions didn't count; you needed to use the skill or characteristic 10 
times to increase it...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:07:12 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

>>Also Judaism is matrilineal. If the mother is a Jew, the child is. If not,
>>then not. Judaism still exists (so I think some matriarchal cultures can
>>succeed) , despite numerous efforts to the contrary...though to be fair, it
>>will probably be long gone and absorbed into Christianity and/or Islam by
>>the
>>time the Solomani conquer the Vilani...
>
>That's been said for the last two thousand years, too....

First off, matrilineal is not the same thing as matriarchal.  Matrilineal
cultures can still be patriarchal.

Second, I'd wonder about Judaism being absorbed. I can see some fusion with
other religions (with these mixtures probably considered heresy by _both_
parent religions). I suspect that the customs of even the most extreme
Ultra-Orthadox sect will drift (look at all the changes that have happened
in the last 2000 years). But then, I'd expect _any_ religion to drift.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:51:22 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: failed societies

>I remember reading a column in the late 70s or early 80s which tried to
>calculate the cost to replace a "housewife" (could be either gender
>actually, but represents the primary caregiver who takes care of home
>and family) and the results were pretty big.  Consider that a housewife
>does duties covered by (incomplete listing):  cleaning, childcare,
>nursing, psychologist, banking (allowances and their application to
>minors), laundry, tutor, sex partner (there is some cost for this unless
>one is celibate), judge/lawyer/arbitrator (which one depending on the
>childcare model in use), and some others I can't think of at the
>moment.
>The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
>rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by now.
>- Joseph

True, but remember that not all of these functions are being performed to
professional standards, so using professional rates of pay is an
inappropriate comparison.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:23:02 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules

>Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>My calculations for the GTL9 module:
>
>>Volume of PP: 400 cf
>>Long term access (x4) raise this to 1600 cf
>
>This is just a bit much.  It should be x3 for total volume of PP + access
>space. (1 for the PP, 2x PP volume for access space.)

Ah, I see my mistake. Regular access space is equal to the PP volume. Long
terms space doubles only the access space - I multiplied the (access space
+ PP) by mistake.

>>Airlock: 300 cf
>>Docking tube: 40 cf
>>Total: 1940 cf (4 spaces)
>
>>Base cost of PP: 4 MCr
>>Cost of 'fusion core': 1 MCr
>>Airlock: 0.006 MCr
>>Docking tube: 0.003 MCr
>>Total: 5.009 MCr (5 MCr)
>
>>Could someone please check my calculations?
>
>You may also want to add a fire suppression system as the other techs have
>one as well.

Thought I had. Insignificant effect

Revised design:

VOLUME
PP: 400 cf
Access space: 800 cf
Airlock: 300 cf
Docking tube: 40 cf
Fire suppression: 2 cf
Total: 1542 (just 42 cf over 3 dtons - what else can we add, or can we call
it 3 dtons?)

MASS
Base mass of PP: 20000 lb
Airlock: 3000 lb
Docking tube: 2000 lb
Fire suppression: 200 lb
Total: 25200 lb (12.51 stons)

COST
Base cost of PP: 4 MCr
Cost of 'fusion core': 1 MCr
Airlock: 0.006 MCr
Docking tube: 0.003 MCr
Fire suppression: 0.005 MCr
Total: 5.014 MCr (5.01 MCr)

How's this?


>This isn't a bad start. I await to see more lower tech modules on the TML.
>(save me the trouble of doing them m'self! <G>)

Well, if someone could do the weapon modules I'd appreciate it. Doug maybe?

So we still need:

stateroom
bunkroom
low berth
passenger couch
fuel tank
jump drive
maneuver thruster
bridge
cockpit/systems (seems to include reactor core, as small craft don't need one)
utility module
turret
bay
missile rack
laser
sandcaster
fuel processor

This would be a lot easier if we knew what went into each regular module in
the first place. If someone could post a breakdown that would help.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:16:08 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Juliean Galak wrote:

> I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
> solid?  If so, could you just freeze a chunk of it, carry it with you until
> jump, thaw it as its being used and *presto* no tank left.

Because it is exposed to a vacuum or zero pressure.  At that point it would
snap from solid to gas instantly.

Now somebody brought up the cracking water for hydrogen idea a while back.
Basically, liquid hydrogen is 1/14 kg/l.  Water is 16 parts oxygen and 2 parts
Hydrogen.  Water weighs 1kg/l.  Thus water contains 1/9 kg of hydrogen/liter or
about 55% more hydrogen by volume. As an added benefit, you don't have to keep
water at cryogenic temps.

Extending this further (and somebody will have to check the density for me)
Methane (CH4) is 2/9ths hydrogen by mass. (14 parts carbon 4 parts hydrogen).
Methane liquifies at -161K at 1 ATM (I think) so cryogenics would still be
required.  The question then becomes what's the density of liquid methane?

If cracking methane for hydrogen proves volumetrically economic, then I could
easily see the military using it for double jumps and forking over the extra
credits for high test fuel.  If you're into HEPlaR tech, I'd imagine that the
higher density carbon or oxygen atoms would give you a better thrust ratio,
although you may have to knock all the diamonds off your exhaust manifold
repeatedly.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:21:04 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

At 06:50 PM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>well being Jewish; I hope you're right, but the numbers don't jibe (a billion 
>Christians and Muslims vs. 18 million Jews). At Least the non-religious ones 
>will be absorbed, though the Orthodox might keep their identities.
It's been that way for most of the history of Judaism, though.  Which goes
back much further than either Christianity or Islam

>Ob Trav: maybe Mel Brooks was right: "Jews in Space!" (from History of the 
>World, Part One)...:-) I can see it now: a whole planet inhabited by Chasidim 
>(the ones with the black suits and hats, and the long curly side hair...). I 
>wonder how much it costs to ship Kosher food from Terra?
Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :) 



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:36:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: K'Kree Fighter Craft

In the K'Kree alien module, there's a reference to both fighters and tank
units.  The folks that drive these things are considered "crazy but
valuable".  I picture it as similar to high-steel workers or bomb
squaders:  You don't know why they do the job, and you don't know how they
manage, but they sure are useful.  

Also according the module, VR and similar things are used to compensate
for K'Kree phobias.  I guess that's the equivalent of a safety line for
high steel workers or an armored suit for the bomb handlers.  I can
picture truly insane K'Kree getting into their cockpits and flamboyantly
shutting off all the wall holos and stuff as their commanders shake their
heads in disbelief...  :-) 

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:34:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Joe Pettit writes:
> 
> 
> Juliean Galak wrote:
> 
> > I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
> > solid?  If so, could you just freeze a chunk of it, carry it with you
> > until jump, thaw it as its being used and *presto* no tank left.
> 
> Because it is exposed to a vacuum or zero pressure.  At that point it would
> snap from solid to gas instantly.

Um...no.  Simple low pressure won't cause frozen hydrogen to turn to gas --
that takes energy.

Unfortunately, it doesn't take very much energy;)  Your hydrogen rock won't
last very long if its exposed to sunlight.  However, some careful work with a
sunshade and very careful vehicle design might allow solid hydrogen fuel.
> 
> Now somebody brought up the cracking water for hydrogen idea a while back.
> Basically, liquid hydrogen is 1/14 kg/l.  Water is 16 parts oxygen and 2
> parts Hydrogen.  Water weighs 1kg/l.  Thus water contains 1/9 kg of
> hydrogen/liter or about 55% more hydrogen by volume. As an added benefit,
> you don't have to keep water at cryogenic temps.

Heh.  Liquid methane has a comparable increase in density, with a lower weight
penalty.  I'd probably require that you have a pure hydrogen tank for actually
jumping, however (the higher density chemical storage might be reasonable for
storing fuel for a second jump).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:51:44 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: K'Kree Fighter Craft

At 07:36 PM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In the K'Kree alien module, there's a reference to both fighters and tank
>units.  The folks that drive these things are considered "crazy but
>valuable".  I picture it as similar to high-steel workers or bomb
>squaders:  You don't know why they do the job, and you don't know how they
>manage, but they sure are useful.  
>
>Also according the module, VR and similar things are used to compensate
>for K'Kree phobias.  I guess that's the equivalent of a safety line for
>high steel workers or an armored suit for the bomb handlers.  I can
>picture truly insane K'Kree getting into their cockpits and flamboyantly
>shutting off all the wall holos and stuff as their commanders shake their
>heads in disbelief...  :-) 

And when they come back from combat, they ask if their enemies can be
served to them raw...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:23:07 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: External Grapples (FT Question)

Chris sent me the playtest file for the Far Trader ship modules so I could
modify GT Shipyard to be ready for FT. In his files external grapples
counted against external weapons. That restriction seems to have
disappeared from the Far Trader book.

Is this an errata, or a deliberate change?

It strikes me that streamlined ships, at least, should be restricted in how
many external grapples they can have, and I think all ships need some kind
of limit. (In FFS we would use surface area, but surface area limits don't
seem to be part of the GURPS design system.)

Any suggestions?  I noticed this because I was trying to redesign the
Intrepid (101 Starships) when GT Shipyard seemed to want too many turrets
removed. I checked Far Trader to refresh my momory, and didn't see anything
about turret limitations for grapples.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:25:36 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Good Game

All this talk of solid hydrogen reminds me of a nice little game called
"Rocket Flight" from Sierra Madre games.  Each player takes the role of a
company trying to develop space. Each has to cooperate with the others to
grow, but still wants to grow the fastest. Technological developments,
reconfigurable rockets, a delta-V map of the solar system from strategic
movement, with vector tactical movement...

It's not Traveller, but I think quite a few people here would like it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:49:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

Jim MacLean writes: 

>>Is that necessarily a bad thing? How many canonical world writeups claim
>>that the world's main income is from tourism? Quite a few IIRC. With
>>conventional ticket prices these writeups are  --  unlikely, at least.
>>With reduced prices, they become more plausible.
> 
> 	As you well know Hans, the ticket and freight prices in Traveller have 
>been too high for a long time.  Even without drop tanks they can be brought 
>way down.

Yes, for visiting the next world over. But visiting the next subsector over
is still quite expensive. Drop liners will have the greatest effect on long
distance jump traffic prices.

Other than that, Jim and Chris describes things exactly the way I imagine
drop tanks work in the Traveller Univers anno 1120.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:56:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

In a message dated 4/19/99 4:33:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :)  >>

hmm; they have cloven hooves (sort of...), and chew cud (sort of...); and 
aren't carnivores. I think the Orthodox might have a problem with the 
sentience though...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:59:18 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

Juliean Galak wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >Ob Trav: maybe Mel Brooks was right: "Jews in Space!" (from History of the
> >World, Part One)...:-) I can see it now: a whole planet inhabited by Chasidim
> >(the ones with the black suits and hats, and the long curly side hair...). I
> >wonder how much it costs to ship Kosher food from Terra?

> Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :)
> 
Depends on how you kill 'em.... >;-)  (That is, of course, if they chew
a cud....)

>           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>              Gearhead-in-Training
> 
> --
> Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
> IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+
>         pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601
> jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
>                          defend to the death your right to say it."
>                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
> #include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
>                                                      -- Albert Einstein
> for PGP public-key and
> more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
> WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:03:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
> Subject: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
> 
> Dudes, Dudettes.
> 
> Who all is Here?

Dude do you mean "Here" like in the astral plane or like El Cerrito or
what?  Like after the last time I was abducted by like Droyne, I started
totally channelling this pre-spaceflight Vargr mystic named Vroughgren,
and it like changed my life, and I mean totally, dude.  So you can often
find me meditating on Indian Rock because you can like see the place in
Marin where a Droyne ship crashed 10,000 years ago.  So maybe you'll
like think that I'm not all Here, you know, but all of me is, dude.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:22:16 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction
> 
> [Regarding Vargr eating K'Kree]
> 
> I actually thought about this, and my take is that the Vargr
> would find the K'Kree spooky.  It like a human who went to
> eat some fruit and found that it was intelligent!  How would
> you feel about that?  Similarly, having a cow come up and
> lecture you is enough to put you off a steak.

No, a Vargr wouldn't find a K'kree spooky, because Vargr aren't like
humans.  Would a dog find an intelligent fruit spooky? or how about an
intelligent mouse? or an intelligent deer?  No, of course it wouldn't. 
It would find the fruit uninteresting like any fruit, the mouse an
enjoyable snack requiring quickness and skill, and the deer a major meal
requiring teamwork and an aggressive attitude.  I guess what I'm saying
is that, at that instinctual level where emotions like "feeling spooky"
reside, Vargr are more like dogs than humans.  

(That's in my Traveller universe, of course, but I think it's consistent
with what's been published about the Vargr.  I should also note in that
light that Vargr notions of ethics and morality are at least as varied
as those understood by humans.  Thus while most Vargr don't think twice
about killing some small animal and eating it, some Vargr are
vegetarians who won't eat anything that is able to know that it is
alive.  Indeed, some Vargr give a prayer of thanks whenever they eat
anything, because they recognize that just about anything they eat,
whether plant or animal or one-celled organism, was alive and the
process of keeping that Vargr alive involves killing that plant or
animal or one-celled organism.  (Off-topic, I think that's what is
really meant by the funereal phrase, "in the midst of life, we are in
death".))

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:31:36 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

> From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>

> From: Glenn St-Germain <glenn@powersurfr.com>

> Still, the idea of a black market in K'Kree meat on the Imperium's
> trailing frontier might make an interesting / weird / somewhat sick
> adventure seed... >>
> 
>     Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see it
> now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.  *weg* And
> they could also serve Hiver.  Think about the money making potential.

The K'Kree and Hivers wouldn't stand for it being in the open market,
and would likely go to war with the Imperium over it.  It would have to
be deniable (by the Imperial Ministry of State).  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:25:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and Ketchup  ;)

> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> Note: The Vargr are prefectly able to appreciate subletly.  The
> difference is in who they see colors (they see some we don't,
> don't see some we do), not in a lack of appriation for subltly.
> 
> In fact, my impression of the descriptions of their descernment
> in grades of meats (clearly enhanced, not covered, by sauces
> or it wouldn't matter what the meat was), etc.  lead me to
> believe that their tastes may be _more_ subtle than humans.

I tend to agree.  Moreover, the Vargr sense of smell is much more highly
developed that that of humans (though less than the K'kree's), so
they're likely to judge food well in advance of putting it into their
mouths.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:15:26 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

>
> >
> > Now somebody brought up the cracking water for hydrogen idea a while back.
> > Basically, liquid hydrogen is 1/14 kg/l.  Water is 16 parts oxygen and 2
> > parts Hydrogen.  Water weighs 1kg/l.  Thus water contains 1/9 kg of
> > hydrogen/liter or about 55% more hydrogen by volume. As an added benefit,
> > you don't have to keep water at cryogenic temps.
>
> Heh.  Liquid methane has a comparable increase in density, with a lower weight
> penalty.  I'd probably require that you have a pure hydrogen tank for actually
> jumping, however (the higher density chemical storage might be reasonable for
> storing fuel for a second jump).

You would DEFINITELY want a separate jump tank.  I'd even have a waste tank for
the carbon buildup.  Anyway, does anybody know the density of liquid methane so we
gearheads can work up the specs?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:14:31 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules

At 07:23 PM 4/19/99 +0100, you wrote:
>So we still need:
>
>stateroom
>bunkroom
>low berth
>passenger couch
>fuel tank
>jump drive
>maneuver thruster
>bridge
>cockpit/systems (seems to include reactor core, as small craft don't need one)
>utility module
>turret
>bay
>missile rack
>laser
>sandcaster
>fuel processor


I put up some stats on TL9 beam weapons on my site.  Please check the
number before use...



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:17:37 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

At 08:56 PM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/19/99 4:33:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jg42@cornell.edu 
>writes:
>
><< Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :)  >>
>
>hmm; they have cloven hooves (sort of...), and chew cud (sort of...); and 
>aren't carnivores. I think the Orthodox might have a problem with the 
>sentience though...:-)
Yes but is that actually in the rules?  I know it specifically forbids
cannibalism somewhere, but this isn't quite that... :)



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #473
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 474



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Failed Societies
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Economics of drop tanks
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Gazelle (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Project: Frigate-18
1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Subs and Sensors
GT Jump Drive Modules
GT Thruster Module
Subject: Re: Failed Societies
Re: Size comparison  (was Re: Jump Q's)
Re: Skyron
Re Vilani Font
OT: Pretty Good Thing from Down Under
Re: Gazelle (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)
Known Star List...
For fans of the newts
Folks...It's a freaking game!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:30:36 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

><< Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :)  >>
>
>hmm; they have cloven hooves (sort of...), and chew cud (sort of...); and
>aren't carnivores. I think the Orthodox might have a problem with the
>sentience though...:-)


    As a jew. I would not have a problem with eating K'Kree.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 99 11:40:16 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000pzrxnxlt

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:57:55 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

At 08:22 PM 4/19/1999 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>Lets not forget the Gazelle Close Escort.  It was designed to require drop
>>tanks to get its jump 5, when dropped.  Until they were replaced it had
>>fuel only for a jump 2.  If the tanks were retained, it has a jump 4
>>capability due to the extra volume.
>
>Let's not forget that was the revised, updated version of the Gazelle as
>presented in Supplement 9 : Fighting Ships
>
>The original one as presented in JTAS, couldn't jump _at_all_ without the
>drop-tanks, and only had enough internal tankage to get it in-system.
><grin>
>
>Frankie
>
No, that was the ship from CT Supp 7: Traders and Gunboats, and it states
that it can make a jump 2 without the tanks.

In the original JTAS 4 article, you are correct, it could not jump without
the tanks, but with them it did J-4, without (dumping them), J-6.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:37:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Joe Pettit wrote:

> >
> > >
> > > Now somebody brought up the cracking water for hydrogen idea a while back.
> > > Basically, liquid hydrogen is 1/14 kg/l.  Water is 16 parts oxygen and 2
> > > parts Hydrogen.  Water weighs 1kg/l.  Thus water contains 1/9 kg of
> > > hydrogen/liter or about 55% more hydrogen by volume. As an added benefit,
> > > you don't have to keep water at cryogenic temps.
> >
> > Heh.  Liquid methane has a comparable increase in density, with a lower weight
> > penalty.  I'd probably require that you have a pure hydrogen tank for actually
> > jumping, however (the higher density chemical storage might be reasonable for
> > storing fuel for a second jump).
>
> You would DEFINITELY want a separate jump tank.  I'd even have a waste tank for
> the carbon buildup.  Anyway, does anybody know the density of liquid methane so we
> gearheads can work up the specs?

Well, my research (which could be wrong) puts liquid Methane at about 420 kg/kL.
That's about a 30% increase in hydrogen density which makes water the better
alternative.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:37:36 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Gazelle (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

Dear Folks -

I enjoyed Joseph's take on the Gazelle. It conforms to canon, makes sense,
and creates an in-game explanation for a problem caused by clashing rules
sets.

Those of you (Chris, Jim?) who are going to "run the numbers" on drop tanks
may like to consider the cost of salvage. Now, I know Jim is going to
assume non-reusable drop tanks, but it would be worth a look to see if
reusable drop tanks have the effect that David and Ian suggest.

My vision of reusable drop tanks was straight out of Asimov's "The Martian
Way"; that is, you have a bunch of spacers that snag the dropped tanks and
cart them back to the starport for a salvage fee. Now, even if you change
this and say that large lines have their own salvagers (or contract them),
this is going to cost you! Here are some reasons:
     - the scavengers/salvagers must live long-term on spaceships out at
the 100-diameter limit (salaries, inconvenience bonuses, consumables, fuel,
hire fees);
     - they have to pay for fuel BOTH WAYS from the starport to
100-diameters and back again;
     - unless your freighters jump from a dead stop, the scavengers must
expend more time and fuel (i.e. money) matching vectors with and snagging
the tanks;
     - if you use jump masking in your campaign, the optimum jump point
will change, and the scavengers must expend time and fuel (i.e. money) to
keep up.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my
head.

In any case, you may like to run the numbers, and then give them to Marc
and Loren so they can decide whether drop tanks are reusable or not. This
would then become canon.

Good luck!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:53:34 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Project: Frigate-18

The Project: Frigate-18, a TL-18 ship of 25,000 dtons, has been posted
to my Web site.  Share and enjoy!

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:48:48 -0400
From: "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
Subject: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_323000/323422.stm
the BBC...


The lion has again proved itself the king of beasts 
after a ferocious two-week battle in the Ethiopian desert. 

Reports from Addis Ababa say a pride of lions killed 35 
hyenas and drove off the rest for the loss of six of their own. 

Ethiopian television showed sand billowing as a lion 
wrestled with six hyenas, with other lions watching. 

Police said the rocky area in south-eastern Ethiopia 
was now firmly under the lions' control. 

...snip...

Wildlife experts said that in any sustained conflict the 
smaller hyenas were always likely to incur more losses - 
despite possessing jaws which could crunch their way 
through elephant bones. 

The two sides had been fighting for territory in Gobele 
desert, close to the district of Girawa, 450km east of 
Addis Ababa. 

Prevailing drought conditions probably played a part in 
igniting the war. 

Fierce battles raged every night. During the day the animals 
took cover in their dens, waiting for the sun to set. 

...snip....

****************************

An interesting  "nugget" to throw into a larger adventure,
in my opinion.  If the PC's are contracted to help bring out
the latest issue of Imperial Xenographic (with it's famous
red bordered media), the animal's and their environment
would definitely need fleshing out.  This becomes even more
true if this is a Scout adventure, with the PC's studing
the local biome.

While I personally favour Scout adventures the most,
they are rather difficult to design.  Unlike mercenary,
merchant, and political adventures, field research 
require a lot of unfamiliar background work (at least for those 
of us who are not scientifically trained).  Especially for
those without any experience living in a rural environment, 
it's just plain hard to fake it well in a gaming session.

I suspect this is because there isn't many movies based 
on research in the wild, in comparison to military or political 
adventures. Many of us can draw on our real-life work 
experience to flesh out merchant adventures, though not with the
care and depth that G:T Far Trader provides.  (An unusual 
number on this list can use real-life experiences to help model 
military adventures: I suspect that this is not typical of roleplayer's.
Of course, it's an unquestioned fact that the average Traveller 
player can out-think, out-fight and out-work any ten D&D
players, for an example....)

What "science movies" there is tend to have an undisiplined
approach to science, to say the least.  The focus is on the 
violence and sheer weirdness: while this has its place, it 
would be pleasant if the PC's could learn new, unusual 
and interesting things in their adventure as well, preferably 
interrelated to each other in an elegant and coherent fashion.

{Why yes, I want God to be my Traveller Referee.  Why do you ask?}

Often, for the PC's to gain the knowledge the
Referee must have it in mind to teach the PC's in the first place: 
this means more background work.  

There are also rather limited ways that animals can threatened
even a lightly-armed man.  We dominated the Earth with just 
sticks and stones, never mind meson cannon or orbiting starships.
The best way to threaten the PC's is with unexpected natural 
surprises, but you are unlikely to catch them more than two or 
three times before they learn to ask questions and do some 
research before going into the wilds.  Still, very thinly known 
and/or uninhabited regions of a planet would provide players 
with a real challenge, but requires a lot of intensive
background work by the Referee.

It will be interesting to see how the new Scout's book agrees/ 
challanges my thoughts: if past experience is a guide, it should be
a joy to read and greatly expand what Traveller Referee's can do with
Scout's.  It will be interesting to see how it stack's up against
the legendary World Builder's Handbook form DGP.

[Aside: apparently, WBH obtained an internet award for "most useless
single page" in ANY Roleplaying Game.  It's the page where a Scout's
vest is described.  In detail.  With weight and cost, by tech level.  
And a typically elegant DGP illustration thoughtfully added.]

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126
Reply to: aplummer@idirect.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:12:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Dear Folks -

> Juliean Galak wrote:
>
> > I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
> > solid?

I thought hydrogen would only "freeze" at 0K - which is unreachable. It is
too small (1 proton, 1 neutron) to collapse into a solid, and at temps of
1-4K it is some sort of super fluid (with named states like hydrogen III,
or something).

Uh, it's been a long time since I learned any of this - could one of our
resident physicists correct me?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 01:49:05 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>Ever seen a 7500 ton whale? Or one that does 40 knots? Or
>one that, on checking, seems to have an associated neutrino source.

IIRC whales, dolphins, sharks, et al have some sort of active adaptive
streamlining that
lets them move through water at much greater speeds than would otherwise be the
case (New Scientist 1997?). I don't think 40 knots is a problem.

Hey that's an excellent idea to put a small power plant on whales & dolphins to
give a false neutrino reading - It's probably required for the breeding program
anyway :^)

A fully stealthed sub would optimally have a signature similar to aquatic life.
After all a R/L stealth fighter/bomber is basically a very large moth :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:06:34 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: GT Jump Drive Modules

Reverse engineering the jump drive calculations from the GT rulebook, I
determined that each jump module supplies 50 000 cf of "jump capacity".
Thus each module's jump drive has the following characteristics:

MASS
50 000 x 0.12 = 6000 lb = 3 stons

VOLUME
6000 lb / 50 = 120 cf for the drive
double that = 240 cf for long term acess space

COST
6000 lb x 500 CR = 3 MCr

POWER
50 000 x 0.2 = 10 000 kW

CREW
10 000 kW / 50 000 = 0.2
take the square root = 0.4
thus each module requires 0.4 crew


This holds for all tech levels. As GTL11 fusion power plants are the same
as GTL12 fusion power plants, a GTL11 jump module is the same as a GTL12
jump module (except that the maximum possible jump is less).


Calculating a TL9 fusion power plant:

MASS
10 000 kW = 10 000 lb = 5 stons

VOLUME
10 000 / 50 = 200 cf for the power plant
double that = 400 cf for long term access space

COST
10 000 lb x 200 = 2 MCr


Putting these together:

MASS
3 stons + 2 stons = 5 stons

VOLUME
120 cf + 240 cf + 200 cf + 400 cf = 960 cf = 2 spaces

COST
3 MCr + 2 MCr = 5 MCr

CREW
0.4 crew per module


Once again, can anyone spot a mistake?


Assuming that I'm correct, GTL9 starships will be very big and clunky, with
huge crews.  Is this why the Terrans won?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:17:54 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: GT Thruster Module

Thrusters at GTL11 and GTL12 are identical (ref GT rulebook on thruster
tech), so are fusion power plants, thus GTL11 thruster modules are
identical to GTL12 modules.

GTL9 thrusters are the TL10 super thrusters from VE2 (ref GT rulebook on
thruster tech).

Assuming 5.8 tons of thrust, for thrusters we get:

THRUST
5.8 tons = 11600 lb

MASS
11600 x 0.2 = 2320 lb

VOLUME
2320 / 50 = 46.4 cf for thrusters
92.8 for long term access space

POWER
11600 x 0.5 = 5800 kW

COST
2320 lb x 100 = 0.232 MCr

CREW
5800 / 50 000 = 0.116
take square root = 0.34

And for the power plant:

MASS
5800 kW = 5800 lb

VOLUME
5800 / 50 = 116 for power plant
232 for long term access space

COST
5800 x 200 = 1.16 MCr


Adding these together, I get:

VOLUME
487.2 cf = 1 space

MASS
8120 lb = 4.06 = 4.1 stons

COST
1.392 MCr

CREW
0.34 per module


Once again, if you spot any mistakes please tell me.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:22:35 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Subject: Re: Failed Societies

> From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>

> Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :) 

The Book of Leviticus provides:

11:2   Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the
        beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the
        earth.

 11:3   Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth
        the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.

Because the K'Kree are sentient, they aren't "beasts" and so can't be
eaten at all.  

If they are considered beasts, however, we can ask the questions of
11:3:  are they cloven-hoofed and do they chew the cud?  I don't
remember, and don't have anything on the K'Kree handy.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:40:52 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Size comparison  (was Re: Jump Q's)

> I'm having a hard time deciding just how big a ship is based on
> tonnage.  Can anyone give me some "real life" comparisons, or is there a
> convert tonnage to square footage formula I missed? :P

I recently designed a new, improved, 125-ton Scout/Courier vessel for
the GURPS Traveller campaign I am about to start running. Using the
GT rules, a 125-ton ship has 125 "spaces" if it's not streamlined, 100
if it is -- streamlined ships have 80% of the capacity of an unsteamlined
one. Each component (drives, fuel tank capacity, etc.) uses up one "space".
Doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations (which, unfortunately, I can't
seem to recall), each "space" worked out to be a floor area of 6 square
metres. (The grid I used for the deck plans, I used one-metre squares, and
each "area" worked out to six squares.) This is assuming a 2.5-metre ceiling
height (about eight feet) and the normal stuff between decks (plating, 
wiring, conduits, and whatever else they have under there).

You can substitute "yards" for "metres" without too much error, if you
like.

One VERY IMPORTANT thing to remember (and I don't remember if it was
mentioned in another post): Standard GURPS Space measures ship tonnage
as one ton = the volume displaced by one ton of water. Traveller (and
GURPS Traveller) uses one ton = the volume displaced by one ton of
liquid hydrogen, a much larger volume! So if you're looking at any
GURPS Space material, make sure you take this into account.

- - glenn


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:51:01 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Skyron

> Fellow Travellers,
> 
> This may hvae already been done, as I am still catching up on my TML
> Digests, but to provide more info on Glenn St-Germain's theory that Skyron
> fits the new solar system model, I present the following data, taken from
> Andrew M-V's First Contact data, which in turn came from Supplement 10:
> Solomani Rim, retrofitted to the 2096AD timeline:

Is the First Contact data "canon"? I must admit to being not familiar
with this source.
 
> Skyron       0533 X312000-0    Ic Ba              002 Us K5 V M8 D
> 
> Unfortunately, Skyron has two stars and only two gas giants.  Close 
> fit, but not quite what we're looking for.  Still, once I'm caught 
> up, I'll give it a try and see what I can find, too, just in case.  
> :)

Not wanting to be difficult, but...
According to canon, the world Fenris (Solomani Rim 1830) is the star 
Procyon. And according to the maps, the Fenris system has no gas giants. 
If they were to detect a gas giant around Procyon in the near future, 
what would we do?  :)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 03:36:42 EDT
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re Vilani Font

Hi Folks,

Can anyone point me in the direction of Glenn's Bilandin font? Rather than 
flood the mailing list with someone I'm sure everyone has, I'd appreciate it 
if you'd forward the details to: Jaieras@Aol.Com - thanking you in advance.

Keep the faith...

Signal GK; a distress signal, a call for help, a call to adventure!

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:11:16 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: OT: Pretty Good Thing from Down Under

Greetings All:

If you haven't been watching it give Farscape a try. It's on Fridays on the 
Sci Fi Channel (if you get it, not sure about other countries...).

While the first episode was fairly hokey, I've enjoyed the character 
development of the aliens and I've also liked the baroque feel of the ship. 
Some of the stuff reminds me of George R.R. Martin's stories, especially "Tuf 
Voyaging" and "Nightflyers" (which was a better book than movie!).

The web site (farscape.com) gives some background on the aliens and the ship 
(the ship is alive, and the character named "Pilot" is actually a sort of 
symbiont lifeform to the ship lifeform). Each alien character seems to have a 
bit of a mystery around him or her (they are all, except for the other 
humaniti type humanoid, ex-prisoners).

It's relatively cheaply made, you've got some Henson muppets, the acting 
isn't the Academy Award...but, I'm enjoying it nonetheless. For example, in 
one recent episode, invading aliens used drugs to enhance their 
aggressiveness/strength. One of these aliens is captured and one of the 
ship's crew tries to "cure" him.

Now, if this were ST:TNG, or practically any other version of ST, the invader 
would be cured, his society would see the error of their ways, renounce their 
warlike ways and give up the drug. The Federation would be so overjoyed at 
getting another member they would overlook the slight infraction of the 
non-interference directive. 

(BTW, before you flame me, I do like ST and it's spinoffs...just get tired of 
the happy joy joy outlook of the Federation sometimes!)

However, in this episode, while the invader is cured, it is only temporary. 
Upon rejoining his fellows, he goes back on the drug. "My choice" he states. 
Not so happy a ending.

I'll keep watching and I hope you'll give it a try!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:19:03 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Gazelle (was Re: Economics of drop tanks)

At 11:37 20/04/1999 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
<snip>
>     - unless your freighters jump from a dead stop, the scavengers must
>expend more time and fuel (i.e. money) matching vectors with and snagging
>the tanks;

At last - a good reason for ships to jump from a stop with respect to
the planet they are leaving.

<IMTU>
I had always assumed that a ship's velocity when it jumped was carefully
constructed to optimse travel times in both systems, allowing for the
relative motion between the systems and the positions of the planets.
</IMTU>

So perhaps the stop to stop in system travel times and jumping from a
standstill rules can be used to support the fact that most ships are
drop ships and frontier free traders are an exception.

:-)

Phil Kitching


- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:20:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Known Star List...

Greetings, Fellow Travellers,

Yesterday, while catching up on the TML Digests from the weekend, I 
found the link for the Known Star List of the Solomani Rim, and 
really enjoyed it.  It appears to be about three years old, so I was 
wondering if a more updated version had been created.  I remember 
last year reading about someone who was working on a project similar 
to this, and would be very interested in any previous attempts to 
plot the nearby star systems into a Traveller format.  More of a 
curiosity at this point, but I'd still be interested.

Thanks for your time.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled 
thread, already in progress.

Enjoy,
Jason

The Known Star List URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4224/library/solomanistars.ht
ml

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:06:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: For fans of the newts

At Wondercon, I got a comic called Knewts of the Round Table (Brian
Fitzgerald, writer;Nirut Chamsuwan, artist; published by Pan
Entertainment).  If you're a fan of the Newts, a minor race detailled in
a Contact article in the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, you
might like this comic.  It's a retelling of the Camelot story.  The
knights get turned into knewts by a bad guy.  The art is quite good. 
Look at www.knewts.com.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:11:08 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Folks...It's a freaking game!

Greetings All:

- --begin paste--

Pot, Kettle?  Give some objective analysis that doesn't "support" your 
preconceived conclusions and you might even sway me.  I don't think you have 
anything but strawmen up your sleeves, though I would be glad to see 
otherwise.  You have some assumptions that COULD actually be valid (if the 
economics rules were altered, though), but you've given nothing beyond your  
opinion to support it.  

> in oppostion turned out...) but don't just drop in on my discussions with
> others unless you have a direct point to make (not just to

When you post to a public forum, I'll respond to whatever I wish, with 
whatever content I wish.  If you don't like it, you can take your blocks and 
go home.  I must admit I've enjoyed pushing your buttons and watching you 
lose your bearing, but I must also say you're either too hostile a person or 
you're taking YTU far too seriously.  No need to get so riled there, killer.

- --end paste--

Folks:

It's a freaking game. As much as we like it, it's a game. Do we really need 
to goad each other? There's few enough of us out there that enjoy this 
game--do we really need to annoy each other? I'd welcome anyone of you in my 
home as a fellow gamer, I'd politely listen to your theories on near-c rocks, 
feudal technocracies, drop tanks, or whatever. I would not push buttons.

Can't we have the same level of respect towards each other on this list? We 
all have a lot of really valuable stuff to contribute, please give the other 
party a chance to give their opinion without throwing extraneous balls of mud 
and rotten eggs.

(Please note: I am taking no sides in this particular debate. Both sides have 
a lot of interesting things to say. Both sides are right a lot of the times. 
Both sides will enrich my eventual game.)

Thanks much!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #474
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 475



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Oh Bog.
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Recent SPAM attack
Re: Size comparison  (was Re: Jump Q's)
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: "We're going to Graceland..."
Re: failed societies
Re: External Grapples (FT Question)
Re: Failed Societies
Re: Economics of drop tanks
GT Battledress
On Farscape...
re: failed societies
Re: More RealLift(tm) Traveller Tech (or *102* Robots)
Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: GT Battledress
Re: On Farscape...
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Re Vilani Font
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:35:04 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

> The one fly in the ointment here is the known Imperial practice of
> freezing ova and sperm for later need, particularly for higher ranking
> nobles.

Except that you could change the treaty to require an _unbroken_
male lineage. In which case, the situation is indeed dire.

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:11:13 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Oh Bog.

In a message dated 4/19/99 21:02:22, owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com writes:

>Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Are we going to get an endless stream of these? Sigh.

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: 20 Apr 99 23:46:15 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000xnftdtbd

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:41:23 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

At 12:12 20/04/1999 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>Dear Folks -
>
>> Juliean Galak wrote:
>>
>> > I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
>> > solid?
>
>I thought hydrogen would only "freeze" at 0K - which is unreachable. It is
>too small (1 proton, 1 neutron) to collapse into a solid, and at temps of
>1-4K it is some sort of super fluid (with named states like hydrogen III,
>or something).
>
>Uh, it's been a long time since I learned any of this - could one of our
>resident physicists correct me?

You are thinking of helium.

Hydrogen liquifies at 20K and freezes at around 14K.

(source http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/web-elements/)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:47:16 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Dude!

:)

Jesse

>> From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>> Subject: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
>> 
>> Dudes, Dudettes.
>> 
>> Who all is Here?
>
>Dude do you mean "Here" like in the astral plane or like El Cerrito or
>what?  Like after the last time I was abducted by like Droyne, I started
>totally channelling this pre-spaceflight Vargr mystic named Vroughgren,
>and it like changed my life, and I mean totally, dude.  So you can often
>find me meditating on Indian Rock because you can like see the place in
>Marin where a Droyne ship crashed 10,000 years ago.  So maybe you'll
>like think that I'm not all Here, you know, but all of me is, dude.  
>
>--Glenn
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:08:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recent SPAM attack

In mail you write:

> Well the SPAM heads have figured out how to take names on a mailing list, 
> such as the TML and send mail to that list as one of us to get buy our 
> "spam" filters.  This is really starting to tick me off.  We are working on 
> a block solution to this.

There's a little used federal law that makes it a *felony* to obtain
computer access or services via false information. I've always thought
that this was the best way to deal with spam that has a forged address.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:56:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Size comparison  (was Re: Jump Q's)

In mail you write:

> Thanks to everyone for all the great answers on this!  Now, just one
> other thing...
>
> I'm having a hard time deciding just how big a ship is based on
> tonnage.  Can anyone give me some "real life" comparisons, or is there
> a convert tonnage to square footage formula I missed? :P

"Displacement tons" is a measure of *volume*. Depending on the version
of Traveller, one DT is either 14 cubic meters or 13.5 cubic meters. 
It's based on the volume of one ton of liquid hydrogen.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:31:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Howdy!

> Dear Folks -
> 
> > Juliean Galak wrote:
> >
> > > I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
> > > solid?
> 
> I thought hydrogen would only "freeze" at 0K - which is unreachable. It is
> too small (1 proton, 1 neutron) to collapse into a solid, and at temps of
> 1-4K it is some sort of super fluid (with named states like hydrogen III,
> or something).
> 
Helium does the weird superfluid stuff; I don't know if they have yet
solidified helium.

Hydrogen, on the other hand, is freezable. The recent infrared satellite
that failed depended on a block of frozen hydrogen to keep the detector
cold. The satellite was written off when, after a shutter inadvertently 
opened the interior to direct sun, the block evaporated away posthaste.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:52:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "We're going to Graceland..."

In mail you write:

> (4) Wonderland misjump! You end up really far away! Mayb not in the
> universe of the Third Imperium! Past misjumps have included:

> --M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne,
> Swords and Glory).

And they have to hire a Wizard to get back?

> --Jack Chalker's Well World. (One solo book, on large book split in
> half, two followup books, one followup trilogy...and I'm sure he's
> got more in him).  Kind of a neat idea, not canon by any means, but
> makes for interesting adventures!

Oh great. Nathan Brazil or Mavra Chang as NPCs? RUN AWAY!!!!!!!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:01:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: failed societies

In mail you write:

>> alvin plummer wrote:

>>> Embracing women as equal partners in life doubles the available
>>> labor pool.  The US economy now routinely operates at a wartime
>>> level of human-resource committment on a routine basis. Suppressing
>>> half the population not only removes them from productive positions
>>> but also wastes the energy spent doing so. Allow talent into a work
>>> force and you create jobs.

>> Heh.  "Suppressing half the population not only removes them from
>> productive positions...." There are a large number of women who would
>> rightfully resent the implication that they were "oppressed" into
>> starting families, or that raising children is not a productive
>> activity.

> The fastest-growing part of the American (and developed-world)
> economy is the Service sector. The people who clean our clothes, cook
> our meals, care for our children, run our errands, etc.

> These tasks have always needed to be done. They were simply done by
> people who weren't counted in measurements of the economy -
> housewives.

> As more and more families saw the "free" housekeeper/nanny/cook turn
> into another working parent, the value of this person to the
> household has started to become apparent. Especially when the
> replacement value of this person is reflected in a massive increase
> in the service economy.

> (I'm not indicating that people are hiring out and out live-in
> servants, but every time a family orders a pizza or drops a kid off
> at day-care we see a service that cost nothing (because the housewife
> did it for "free") changed to a service that money is paid for and
> the economists can see.)

> ObTrav: a society that creates invisible housekeepers out of half the
> population is probably the simplest hidden factor a interplanetary
> economist has to deal with.

Consider Athos (from Lois Bujold's "Ethan of Athos"). Their economy
*does* consider the economic costs of raising children. It accounts for
around half their economic output.

> I remember reading a column in the late 70s or early 80s which tried to
> calculate the cost to replace a "housewife" (could be either gender
> actually, but represents the primary caregiver who takes care of home
> and family) and the results were pretty big.  Consider that a housewife
> does duties covered by (incomplete listing):  cleaning, childcare,
> nursing, psychologist, banking (allowances and their application to
> minors), laundry, tutor, sex partner (there is some cost for this unless
> one is celibate), judge/lawyer/arbitrator (which one depending on the
> childcare model in use), and some others I can't think of at the
> moment.

> The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
> rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by now.
> - Joseph

Yep. I suspect that it'd do the economy  (and society!) a lot of good
if we quit "hiding" these costs. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 05:28:18 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: External Grapples (FT Question)

>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:23:07 +0100
>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: External Grapples (FT Question)
>
>Chris sent me the playtest file for the Far Trader ship modules so I could
>modify GT Shipyard to be ready for FT. In his files external grapples
>counted against external weapons. That restriction seems to have
>disappeared from the Far Trader book.
>
>Is this an errata, or a deliberate change? I checked Far Trader to refresh
>my momory, and didn't see anything about turret limitations for grapples.

That's because it's in GT: Star Mercs (p. 67), not Far Trader:

"External cradle modules count against the turret-mounted weapons limit at
a rate of 3 modules per 1 turret."

I found out about the ruling after Far Trader had already gone to the
printer. It doesn't affect the LASH freighter in FT because she doesn't
have the maximum number of turrets anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:14:30 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

Date sent:      	Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:22:35 -0700
> > Speaking of which, are K'Kree Kosher?  :) 
> 
> The Book of Leviticus provides:
> 
> 11:2   Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the
>         beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the
>         earth.
> 
>  11:3   Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth
>         the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
> 
> Because the K'Kree are sentient, they aren't "beasts" and so can't be
> eaten at all.  

Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
aren't on the Earth, they're out in space, so they wouldn't
qualify...  :)
 
> --Glenn

- -- Glenn  


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:01:35 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

At 13:25 19/04/1999 -0600, Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote:
>Lets remember that in the Real World (tm) the Gazelle was designed
>using a beta version of the High Guard rules, and so it doesn't conform
>to the "normal" rules we keep trying to pin on it.  After all, it has 4
>turrets on a 300 dton hull with 100 tons of drop tanks.  If you try to
>bring it into strict compliance with HG, you either need to say the rule
>of 1 turret per 100 tons is flexible, or those aren't _exactly_ drop
>tanks.  For the sake of the current argument (and because I think it is
>more correct), I will choose the latter option.  This is especially easy
>since supposedly drop tanks are a TL15 technology, but the Gazelle is
>TL14 manufacture.

Unfortunately, the only thing to support this (drop tanks being TL15)
is one TNS press release.

As I pointed out before, all the design systems allow drop tanks
at all tech levels. There is no mention of special jump drives
in the rules, except (IIRC) a reference to a device that allows
the drive to use less than all the jump fuel when performing a
jump lower than its rating.

I would suggest that General Shipyards only developing drop tanks
after 1100 means that either they wanted a new solution that avoided
royalty payments or they are as incompetent a company as is sometimes
implied.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:09:33 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: GT Battledress

In GURPS Traveller, battledress is not given a maximum lifting capacity per
se, but is instead given a Strength rating (25 ST). Do the "Extra Effort
Lifting with High Strength" rules from pg. 12 of CI apply to this?

If so, is the Fatigue spent on the effort taken from the character's own
Fatigue score, or is it taken from the power supply of the battledress,
where 1 Fatigue = x amount of kWs?

I guess more generally, does *any* vehicle design with a Strength rating
(such as manipulating arms on a minisub) use these extra effort rules?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:07:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: On Farscape...

> From: Diespamer@aol.com
>
> Greetings All:
> 
> If you haven't been watching it give Farscape a try. It's on Fridays on the 
> Sci Fi Channel (if you get it, not sure about other countries...).

I personally have really enjoyed it, so far.  The characters are 
interesting, the ship is quite cool, and the show overall definitely 
feels different from Star Trek and other, harder s/f.  It's fun, 
kinda like Mind Candy.  I'm interested in seeing where they take it.  
:)

Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:34:49 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: re: failed societies

>>>> (begin quoted material)
>The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
>rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by
now.
>- Joseph

True, but remember that not all of these functions are being performed
to
professional standards, so using professional rates of pay is an
inappropriate comparison.
Robert Prior
>>>> (end quoted material)
You are correct that few "housewives" could go out and get a
professional level job doing any or all of these without education and
training at professional levels.  However, this comparison is more along
the lines of what it might cost to replace a housewife with all these
different professionals doing their specialties.  There is a real cost
for sending the housewife to work, and this can't be ignored without
throwing off income/expense calculations.  (Again by "housewife" I am
indicating the primary caregiver in the household regardless of
gender).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:04:46 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: More RealLift(tm) Traveller Tech (or *102* Robots)

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" 
> Another cool story from MSNBC
...
> Robo-fish spawn new technologies
...

What I want to know is:  Do androids dream about them?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:46:05 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

At 10:14 PM 4/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
>aren't on the Earth, they're out in space, so they wouldn't
>qualify...  :)

But there you get into a question of what did the original Hebrew said.
Did it mean Earth (capital e) as in the world/planet or earth (lower case
e) as in the ground...  I suspect that in Hebrew the two are not the same
word (or maybe they are.  I dunno...) :)

This is a silly discussion.  Keep it up!





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:48:12
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 01:02 PM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:

>I probably will just show up one day Sat. or Sunday.  (prob
>Sat.).  Getting out of work in time to make it up is too much....

If you could make it down Friday evening, we're having dinner at Denny's.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:47:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 05:03 PM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Dude do you mean "Here" like in the astral plane or like El Cerrito or
>what?  Like after the last time I was abducted by like Droyne, I started
>totally channelling this pre-spaceflight Vargr mystic named Vroughgren,
>and it like changed my life, and I mean totally, dude.  So you can often
>find me meditating on Indian Rock because you can like see the place in
>Marin where a Droyne ship crashed 10,000 years ago.  So maybe you'll
>like think that I'm not all Here, you know, but all of me is, dude.  

Droyne in Marin?  It almost makes sense when you realize that most of the
great SF rock bands of the sixties and seventies had six memebers!!!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
> In GURPS Traveller, battledress is not given a maximum lifting capacity per
> se, but is instead given a Strength rating (25 ST). Do the "Extra Effort
> Lifting with High Strength" rules from pg. 12 of CI apply to this?

No.  They never apply to vehicles.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:27:54 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: On Farscape...

At 09:07 AM 4/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> From: Diespamer@aol.com
>>
>> Greetings All:
>> 
>> If you haven't been watching it give Farscape a try. It's on Fridays on the 
>> Sci Fi Channel (if you get it, not sure about other countries...).
>
>I personally have really enjoyed it, so far.  The characters are 
>interesting, the ship is quite cool, and the show overall definitely 
>feels different from Star Trek and other, harder s/f.  It's fun, 
>kinda like Mind Candy.  I'm interested in seeing where they take it.  
>:)
And the aliens are aliens, not humans with nose or ear jobs.  This past
week the alien adversaries were rather well done, in makeup and other things...


Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:00:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

At 08:04 PM 4/19/99 GMT, you wrote:

>Canonically, the Imperium doesn't allow polities to join, only
>worlds. 

<snip excellent stuff>

I could have sworn that I've seen canonical references to individual
nations on balkanized worlds joining the Imperium.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Canon Inquistion,
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:58:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

At 09:01 AM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry writes:
>> Gridlore Technologies presents the 20mm Individual Anti-Armor Weapon
>> 
>> Malf      Type  Damage   SS  Acc  1/2D   Max   Wt  RoF  ST  Rcl  Cost
>> Ver(Crit)  Cr  6dx24(5)  12  14   1500  7000  7.5  1NR  10  -2  Cr1250
>
>Hrm..I'll have to look at disposable weapons again.  I don't recall them
>giving anywhere _near_ this level of advantage over a standard weapon (you 
>might want to check your math).  However, as a non-single-shot weapon, you 
>can get this level of damage (with much better range) for only 360 lb...

The One-Shot Railgun (page VE99) adds 50% to kinetic energy damage, while
halving the cost, weight and volume.

I did this design to make a weapon that an unarmored infantryman could
carry to destroy battledress with 1000+ pts of armor.  It's not light,
since each "shot" weighs about the sdame as a combat rifle, but it's cheap
enough to make BD troops a little wary.

>Btw, this weapon doesn't fire DU -- that would be an armor divisor of 3.
>Armor divisor of 5 is HD, and not available until GTL 11

Ooops.  So the GTL 11 version has the armor divisor of 5, and the GTL 10
version has a (3).

I'm working on a 40mm version.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:26:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re Vilani Font

At 03:36 AM 4/20/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>Can anyone point me in the direction of Glenn's Bilandin font? Rather than 
>flood the mailing list with someone I'm sure everyone has, I'd appreciate it 
>if you'd forward the details to: Jaieras@Aol.Com - thanking you in advance.

It's avalbie on my Traveller page.  Make sure that your machine is saving
it as a .ttf file, not a .htm

Easy way to insure this is to right click on the link and select "save link
as" (in Netscape, I don't know how IE handles this.)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> At 09:01 AM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Douglas E. Berry writes:
> >> Gridlore Technologies presents the 20mm Individual Anti-Armor Weapon
> >> 
> >> Malf      Type  Damage   SS  Acc  1/2D   Max   Wt  RoF  ST  Rcl  Cost
> >> Ver(Crit)  Cr  6dx24(5)  12  14   1500  7000  7.5  1NR  10  -2  Cr1250
> >
> >Hrm..I'll have to look at disposable weapons again.  I don't recall them
> >giving anywhere _near_ this level of advantage over a standard weapon (you
> > might want to check your math).  However, as a non-single-shot weapon,
> >you  can get this level of damage (with much better range) for only 360
> >lb... 
> 
> The One-Shot Railgun (page VE99) adds 50% to kinetic energy damage, while
> halving the cost, weight and volume.

Ok, so it's a short barrel standard length muzzleloader (I guess) -- 29 lb.  Or
a very long, low power muzzleloader -- 36 lb.  Those two give the correct
damage.  Neither one has the range you indicate.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:33:27 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Sure you can freeze it solid, but you still have to have some sort of
container to hold it

1  so it doesnt thaw out from solar radiation

2  so you can contain and control the flow of the thawed H2

3  the foam idea might work.  clearly useful for those set route heavy
haulers.

4  as it thaws, its gonna expand, so you'll need some extra volume to
handle it

5  this should be only available at class A ports.  Freezing H2 is not
something easily done

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:03:51 -0400 Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
writes:
>I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be 
>frozen
>solid?  If so, could you just freeze a chunk of it, carry it with you 
>until
>jump, thaw it as its being used and *presto* no tank left.  
>
>Alternatively, what about containing the LH2 in some sort of super 
>light
>construction foam.  then just let the foam fall apart....
>
>
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>	     Gearhead-in-Training
>
>--
>Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th 
>Millenium
>IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
>	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
>jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I 
>will    
>                         defend to the death your right to say it."    
>    
>                                             -- Francois Marie 
>Voltaire    
>#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge" 
>    
>                         			     -- Albert 
>Einstein            
>for PGP public-key and                                                 
>      
>more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
>WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              
>

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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #475
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 476



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: the Spam
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: On Farscape...
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Re: Experience Systems
Re: K'Kree Fightercraft (was re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction)
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: More RealLift(tm) Traveller Tech (or *102* Robots)
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
TML Talmudic discussion sub-list (was: Failed Societies)
Re: Starship Size
Re: External Grapples (FT Question)
Re: GT Thruster Module
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: GT Thruster Modules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:34:14 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: the Spam

Was there a comment to be included with this?

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:21:12 -0500 Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>> Ship Based Travel Biz!!! Free Cruise!!
>> 
>> What Have you done with your dreams?
>> As a member of our merc team you can earn a
>> 6 figure income and travel for centicreds on the credit
>> while working from a Broadsword. Make your Vocation.....your 
>Vacation.
>> 
>>                   Cr100,000+ FIRST YEAR INCOME
>> 
>> * Earn Cr2000 - Cr5000 Weekly-Starting Within 1-4 Weeks!
>> * 65% Profit Paid Daily
>> * No Selling
>> * Work From Space, No Overhead or employees
>> * High Tech Training & Support
>> * NOT MLM, 100X More Profitable [i.e., looting and pillaging]
>> * Multi Trillion Credit Mercenary Industry
>> 
>>             The most Incredible part of our business is that
>>                    THE IMPERIAL LAWS OF WAR DON'T APPLY!
>> 
>> This is not a hobby! Serious Inquires Only
>> 
>> Message the address below for more information
>>              There is No Obligation
>>                  Regina N5-O-3059-SP86-AM86
>
>-- 
>------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

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------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 02:55:16 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000bdrpnxbj

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:52:05 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: On Farscape...

> At 09:07 AM 4/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >> From: Diespamer@aol.com
> >>
> >> Greetings All:
> >> 
> >> If you haven't been watching it give Farscape a try. It's on Fridays on
> >> the Sci Fi Channel (if you get it, not sure about other countries...).
> >
> >I personally have really enjoyed it, so far.  The characters are 
> >interesting, the ship is quite cool, and the show overall definitely
> >feels different from Star Trek and other, harder s/f.  It's fun, kinda
> >like Mind Candy.  I'm interested in seeing where they take it.  :)
>
> And the aliens are aliens, not humans with nose or ear jobs.  This 
> past week the alien adversaries were rather well done, in makeup and other
> things...

I'm interested to see if Humans are descendents of the Peace 
Keepers (can't remember their name) or vice versa.  Now that would 
be Traveller'ish (or H. Beam Piper'ish).


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:58:40 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I could have sworn that I've seen canonical references to individual
> nations on balkanized worlds joining the Imperium.
> --

I think you are correct. What happens to the others that don't ? Do the
Imperial just come in and say "This system is now Imperial Terratry." and deny
them access to Space ? The Imperium rules the space between the worlds ...
What are peoples thoughts ?

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk                     Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typoes, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:30:24 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Experience Systems

On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:10:00 EDT AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>	I was just wondering what everybody thought about the various 
>systems 
>for character experience in the various Traveller editions.  As best 
>as I 
>remember, they went something like this:
>
>	CT:   you rolled him up, that's the end of the story, unless 
>you 
>undergo long-term training.


I like this version.  Long term training, and everything involved in
getting it, can become an adventure in itself.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:26:24 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: K'Kree Fightercraft (was re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction)

On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:18:07 -0700 Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>However, the K'Kree have a number of subject races as part of the 
>2000
>Suns; it's only carnivores they have a big thing about. They 
>certainly
>would use these subject races in the appropriate situations. It might
>take 'em a thousand years to do so, but once they do decide, that's 
>what
>all the K'Kree battleships will use for pilots.



Indeed.  For those of us who remember FASA's ST rpg, the Klinks used any
number of 'servitor' races for a variety of purposes.  Hmmmm, I feel a
new campaign coming on.....  8^)

ObTrav:  Why dont we write up some subject races for the K'Kree, along
with their uses?

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:00:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

At 09:31 AM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Ok, so it's a short barrel standard length muzzleloader (I guess) -- 29
lb.  Or
>a very long, low power muzzleloader -- 36 lb.  Those two give the correct
>damage.  Neither one has the range you indicate.

Very Short barrel.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:21:05 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

>At 10:14 PM 4/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
[snip]
>But there you get into a question...

Oh this old discussion again.  Can't we get this in the FAQ under "Done to
Death"?!?  I mean, how many times do we have to hear people going back and
forth about the Kosherness of K'kree, only to hear it all again when the
"kosher for passover" label is brought up...

Sometimes I try to tell people what this list is about.  I rarely succeed.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:20:32 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

ahhhhh..... arn't they cute.

"Peter H. Brenton" wrote:

> >At 10:14 PM 4/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >>Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
> [snip]
> >But there you get into a question...
>
> Oh this old discussion again.  Can't we get this in the FAQ under "Done to
> Death"?!?  I mean, how many times do we have to hear people going back and
> forth about the Kosherness of K'kree, only to hear it all again when the
> "kosher for passover" label is brought up...
>
> Sometimes I try to tell people what this list is about.  I rarely succeed.
>
> Pete
>
>                       Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
> "A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
>   -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:39:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> At 09:31 AM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >Ok, so it's a short barrel standard length muzzleloader (I guess) -- 29
> lb.  Or
> >a very long, low power muzzleloader -- 36 lb.  Those two give the correct
> >damage.  Neither one has the range you indicate.
> 
> Very Short barrel.

Then damage is wrong (should be 6d*18) and weight is _still_ wrong (should be
12) and range is _still_ wrong.  Extremely short barrel has the correct range
(and is only 6 lb with a rifle grip), but only does 6d*12, not 6d*24.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:58:51 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

In einer eMail vom 19.04.1999  23:17:39, schreiben Sie:

<< I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
 solid?  If so, could you just freeze a chunk of it, carry it with you until
 jump, thaw it as its being used and *presto* no tank left.  
  >>
LH2 is for Liquid Hydrogen...keep in mind that H2 has a 
density of 0.089 kg per cubic meter if gaseous (0C,1013mbar), thus a ton 
would have a volume of ~11 236 m^3. Thats over 800 times the volume it takes 
up if Liquid (~13.5m^3)!  A lot of energy is used to freeze the hydrogen to 
the ca. -253C, and I think the increased amount of energy needed to store 
solid H2 (ca. -260C) wouldnt
be compensated by a noticable increase in density...but anyone who knows 
better is
free to correct me...

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:58:53 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

In einer eMail vom 20.04.1999  00:23:53, schreiben Sie:

<< Extending this further (and somebody will have to check the density for me)
 Methane (CH4) is 2/9ths hydrogen by mass. (14 parts carbon 4 parts hydrogen).
 Methane liquifies at -161K at 1 ATM (I think) so cryogenics would still be
 required.  The question then becomes what's the density of liquid methane?
  >>
...You have a typo there I guess...there is no such thing as  -nK...Zeroe 
Kelvin is the
lowest temperature ever...
...but the Idea with H2O sounds good if only volume is concerned: in a dton 
you can
store 13,5 metric tons of water with about 11,1% of that being H2 which means 
1,5
metric tons of H2 ! Thus you could eliminate cryogenics and have fuel tanks 
1,5 times more effective...BUT the energy needed to crack water is HUGE 
(delta H = -286,0 kJ)...so it seems to be impractical...
OTOH the military might have some ships with ancient energy storages or 
whatever
and use H20 Tanks on special occasions...Achtung Adventure Idea ! :-)

Andreas Reimer
<----just fooling around with my calculator...if something is 
physically,mathematically
      or chemically incorrect just tell me :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:13:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

In a message dated 4/20/99 10:25:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pbrenton@mit.edu writes:

<< Sometimes I try to tell people what this list is about.  I rarely succeed.
 
 Pete >>

Sorry; it's my fault. I had to try and be a comedian....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:28:34 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

Jim MacLean explained the rule of economics of scale
as a reason there is long-distance interstellar trade.  Of
course this is a very useful idea: a pair of industrial worlds
mass produce widgets that are used by both worlds, and
thus everybody gets ahead.

The thing I was thinking is that large industrial worlds have
the infrastructure, the technology, and the population to
produce all the equipment they need; they might need food,
but they probably make transponders.  This follows along
with pocket empire rules that claim worlds can produce
starships locally -- I assume the parts are made and assembled
locally on average or better worlds.  Large-population worlds
can afford to diversify, and might even prefer to produce
locally at some level rather than import.  And, if you've gotta
import stuff, you'll of course import from the nearest available
source.

I'm still not convinced of the need for trade beyond a sector.
High value, low volume goods can be produced by industrial
worlds inside the sector -- perhaps only a subsector away.

That doesn't mean I'll rule it out, but it seems a stretch still.

Now, the most useful thing I got from your posts is this clue:
it takes about 1 billion people and helpful governments to make
a TL7/8 society.  That's a number I can use.  Now I start the
guesswork.  Do you think 1 billion people can produce a TL 9
society?  How about 2 billion people?  How about 10 billion?
Did 100 million people make a TL 4 or 5 society?

The Darrian confederation had over 10 billion people, and
eventually achieved TL 16.  Their people (and government)
were deeply rooted in research, but they had warships too,
and produced everything they needed for themselves.  They
mined worlds a subsector away, too, so there was trade,
prospecting, and exploitation going on.  And I'll allow that
they had an advantageous alignment of culture, government,
and resources.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:07:55 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: More RealLift(tm) Traveller Tech (or *102* Robots)

> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>

> > Robo-fish spawn new technologies

> What I want to know is:  Do androids dream about them?

No, I think androids count them to help overcome insomnia.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:12:39 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> >Canonically, the Imperium doesn't allow polities to join, only
> >worlds. 

> I could have sworn that I've seen canonical references to individual
> nations on balkanized worlds joining the Imperium.

No, that's the opposite issue.  By "polity", the original writer meant,
a political entity consisting of more than one star system.  The
Imperium wants to be the only interstellar political unit in the
Imperium.  Of course, it does make some de facto exceptions, like
government code 6 worlds (captured government).  (Vilis and
Garda-Vilis/Tanoose is a good example, detailed in one of the
adventures, I think Broadsword.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:20:13 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: TML Talmudic discussion sub-list (was: Failed Societies)

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> Subject: Re: Failed Societies

> > 11:2   Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the
> >         beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the
> >         earth.

> > Because the K'Kree are sentient, they aren't "beasts" and so can't be
> > eaten at all.  
> 
> Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
> aren't on the Earth, they're out in space, so they wouldn't
> qualify...  :)

So does that mean they can't be eaten, or that they can?  Or can they be
eaten only when they're not on the earth, but if they come to earth,
then you have to go through the Leviticus analysis?  Do these
commandments only apply on Terra, or on any world? but what about in
normal space? j-space? 

> From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>

>     As a jew. I would not have a problem with eating K'Kree.

As a jew (more or less; my mother's not), I would have a problem eating
K'Kree, because they are sentient, and therefore eating them is close
enough to eating another human to be subject to the prohibition on
cannabilism (which isn't in Leviticus, so far as I know, but it must be
prohibited).  

Oy!  Problems like this to deal with in real life, we should be so lucky
to have.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:58:55 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starship Size

In einer eMail vom 19.04.1999  20:27:08, schreiben Sie:

<< Adahma writes:
 "I'm having a hard time deciding just how big a ship is 
 based on tonnage.  Can anyone give me some "real life" 
 comparisons, or is there a convert tonnage to square 
 footage formula I missed? :P" >>
Far Trader has a handy table...
1 d[isplacement]ton = 500cf = 13,5m^3 
actually you can stretch the dimensions in any way you want, but traveller 
sticks 
to the numbers posted by Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:57:42 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: External Grapples (FT Question)

>Chris sent me the playtest file for the Far Trader ship modules so I could
>modify GT Shipyard to be ready for FT. In his files external grapples
>counted against external weapons. That restriction seems to have
>disappeared from the Far Trader book.

>Is this an errata, or a deliberate change?

External cradles are mentioned in both Star Mercs & Far Trader.
The cradles counting against turrets bit is in Star Mercs - bottom of page 67 -
3 cradles per turret space.

I suppose it is an oversight that it was not mentioned again in FT.

One mention makes it canon - right? :^)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: GT Thruster Module

>Thrusters at GTL11 and GTL12 are identical (ref GT rulebook on thruster
>tech), so are fusion power plants, thus GTL11 thruster modules are
>identical to GTL12 modules.

>GTL9 thrusters are the TL10 super thrusters from VE2 (ref GT rulebook on
>thruster tech).

I think you forgot to increase the mass of the thruster by 50% for a
vectored thruster.  A vectored thruster will allow thre ship to make turns
more easily for evasion and combat.  Non-vectored thrusters work kinda
like a rocket IIRC. To make a turn you must first turn the thruster off,
thereby coasting. Then use attitude control jets to steer, and then pop
the thruster back on to continue at new course and speed.

The other Tech versions use vectored thrust as a standard.

I made the same mistake the first time I tried to make TL-13 thrusters.
;-) 

>Assuming 5.8 tons of thrust, for thrusters we get:

Make that 5 tons

>THRUST
>5.8 tons = 11600 lb

5 tons = 10,000lbs

>MASS
>11600 x 0.2 = 2320 lb

10,000lbs x 0.3(0.2 x 1.5 for vectored thrust) = 3000 lbs (1.5tons)

>VOLUME
>2320 / 50 = 46.4 cf for thrusters
>92.8 for long term access space

3000/50 = 60 cf
+120 cf for access space (180cf total)

>POWER
>11600 x 0.5 = 5800 kW

10,000 x 0.5 = 5000kW

>COST
>2320 lb x 100 = 0.232 MCr

3000lbs x 100 = 0.3MCr

>CREW
>5800 / 50 000 = 0.116
>take square root = 0.34

SQRT(5000/50000) = 0.32

>And for the power plant:

>MASS
>5800 kW = 5800 lb

5000kW = 5000 lbs (2.5tons)

>VOLUME
>5800 / 50 = 116 for power plant
>232 for long term access space

5000/50 = 100cf
+200cf access space (300 cf total)

>COST
>5800 x 200 = 1.16 MCr

5000 x 200 = 1Mcr

>Adding these together, I get:

>VOLUME
>487.2 cf = 1 space

Thruster = 180cf
Power  = 300cf
Total= 480cf (rounds to 1 space)

>MASS
>8120 lb = 4.06 = 4.1 stons

Thruster= 1.5tons
Power = 2.5tons
Total = 4tons
 
>COST
>1.392 MCr

Thruster = 0.3MCr
Power = 1MCR
Total =  1.3MCR

>CREW
>0.34 per module

0.32 per module


\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:17:15 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

SunTsi@aol.com wrote:

> In einer eMail vom 20.04.1999  00:23:53, schreiben Sie:
>
> << Extending this further (and somebody will have to check the density for me)
>  Methane (CH4) is 2/9ths hydrogen by mass. (14 parts carbon 4 parts hydrogen).
>  Methane liquifies at -161K at 1 ATM (I think) so cryogenics would still be
>  required.  The question then becomes what's the density of liquid methane?
>   >>
> ...You have a typo there I guess...there is no such thing as  -nK...Zeroe
> Kelvin is the
> lowest temperature ever...

yea... that should be -161C

>
> ...but the Idea with H2O sounds good if only volume is concerned: in a dton
> you can
> store 13,5 metric tons of water with about 11,1% of that being H2 which means
> 1,5
> metric tons of H2 ! Thus you could eliminate cryogenics and have fuel tanks
> 1,5 times more effective...BUT the energy needed to crack water is HUGE
> (delta H = -286,0 kJ)...so it seems to be impractical...

No it doesn't. That's a standard fuel purification rig.  And when you talking
about fusion power, HUGE is relatively small.

Anyway, the important thing for Jump drives is Volume.  If you can convert water
to hydrogen 50% more efficiently and not have to worry about cryo-containment, so
much the better.  Water also doesn't detonate very well.

If you use the all at once jumpdrive theory, then you gotta crack out all you'll
need for the jump before initiating it.  If you use the slow burn over the course
of a week, then you can crack water as you go.

Using that extra 50% fuel could result in a jump 5 (6x) and a jump 2 (3x) for a
nice two week journey of 7 parsecs.  The cracked oxygen (which can be cryocooled
to aproximately water density) can then be used to recycle the lifesupport or used
as reaction mass for the insystem trip.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:27:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: GT Thruster Modules

oops!

I forgot to add 50% to the cost of the drive unit as well for a vectored
thruster.

>>COST
>>2320 lb x 100 = 0.232 MCr

>3000lbs x 100 = 0.3MCr

that should be 3000 lbs x 150 = 0.45MCr

Therefore making the entire module 1.45MCr

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #476
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 477



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: On Farscape
Re: Failed Societies
Re: Interstellar Trade
RE: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 
Re: TML Talmudic discussion sub-list (was: Failed Societies)
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: Experience Systems:  TML V1999 #472
Re: On Farscape...
Celtic Matriarchy
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Re: Subject: Re: Failed Societies
Re: Interstellar Trade

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 05:41:19 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000kweiawqy

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:15:19 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:48:48 -0400 "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

> [Aside: apparently, WBH obtained an internet award for "most useless
> single page" in ANY Roleplaying Game.  It's the page where a Scout's
> vest is described.  In detail.  With weight and cost, by tech level.  
> And a typically elegant DGP illustration thoughtfully added.]

Really!? That just shows you how different people are. My players *love* the Utility Vest - their characters wear them all the time to the point where I get tired of hearing the same old description:

"I'm wearing my utility vest, remote earpiece, data/display headset..." etc.

We've actually reached a point where we've considered compiling a Travellers' Starter Kit including all that nifty stuff that PCs go out and buy anyway (but then we thought better of it).

Sometimes I need to ask them:

"But you're going to the Archduke's reception! Aren't you wearing anything else?"

(okay, I'm exaggerating, but you get the point).

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:55:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: On Farscape

I've been watching this new show every friday night.  Ever since I saw the
ship's entry into hyperspace(called 'starburst' on the show)  I was
hooked.  Looks a danged lot like a jump grid lighting up! Also the aliens
are 'alien'!  Kudos to Henson's monster shop on this one.

>I'm interested to see if Humans are descendents of the Peace 
>Keepers (can't remember their name) or vice versa.  Now that would 
>be Traveller'ish (or H. Beam Piper'ish).

Yes, the 'starburst' special effect (jump drive?) and the fact the the
'Sebacians' were alot like humans, at least on the surface (Vilani?), made
me think if the creator/writers were Traveller players! :-).

This show has quite a bit of adventure material...

ObTraveller:

A 20th century terran astrophysicist/astronaut creates a new type of ship
based on his theories.  On the ship's maiden voyage something goes wrong
and the ship misjumps deep into Vilani territory.  He (and his crew if
any) are rescued by a rebel/prison ship fleeing the Vilani tyrany.  Can
the astronaut befrend the rebels and possibly find a way back to earth? 

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:25:23 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

The original poster was quite correct - in many (but not all) cases, Celtic
Britons were both matrilineal and matriarchal societies. It is important to
remember that there was no Celtic nation and that many of the tribes were
wildly different from others. For example, the Brigantes (from whom our
modern word 'brigand' and the name Britain itself are derived) were very
much matrilineal and matriarchal. In this case, the queen ruled on behalf of
the goddess, but her husband was responsible for managing the people of the
tribe and the use of force. Similar to the situation in early Ur and other
Mesopotamian city states (read the Epic of Gilgamesh for the earliest
documented political struggle against exactly this arrangement).

The fact is, systems of rule so different from our own are poorly understood
if viewed as 'types' of our own politics. Try explaining US politics to a
British citizen - or ours to an American, I suppose. The misunderstandings
are rife, even with such closely related systems of democracy.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Damien Fox <phocks@goodnet.com>
To: Traveller <traveller-digest@mpgn.com>
Date: 19 April 1999 21:04
Subject: Fw: Failed Societies


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Sunday, April 18, 1999 9:54 PM
>Subject: Re: Failed Societies
>>
>>There were some matriarchal cultures; weren't the Celtic Britons
>matriarchal?
>
>No, however women were allowed much greater freedom than in contemporary
>Rome
[snip]
>>Also Judaism is matrilineal. If the mother is a Jew, the child is. If not,
>>then not.
[snip]
>There is a significant difference between matriarchal lineage (practiced by
>a quite large portion of the planet) and matriarchal rule, which are
>virtually non-existant.  The problem is, in primitive societies, might make
>right, and among humans, male=might, pretty much.  By the time technology
>comes along to help out, society is usually set in its ways.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:08:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

On 04/20/99 13:28:34 you wrote:
>
>Jim MacLean explained the rule of economics of scale
>as a reason there is long-distance interstellar trade.  Of
>course this is a very useful idea: a pair of industrial worlds
>mass produce widgets that are used by both worlds, and
>thus everybody gets ahead.

	I think you missed the part where I described the sorts of things for 
which economies of scale are most important.  They're not "mass produced 
widgets" they're the highly specialized pieces of equipment that every 
industrial world would like to have but does not have a big enough market to 
make production cost effective.  Several industrial worlds together might 
make have a large enough market to break even, but with a dozen of them the 
market becomes large enough for the specialist gear to become quite 
affordable.
	Many people on this list are military history buffs and over the years 
I have heard many references to things that might qualify for the kind of 
specialist gear status to which I am referring.  I have heard that the 
Congress is continuing to buy a few subs every couple of years to keep the 
incredibly array of special manufacturing skills necessary to do that job 
intact.  Other people have mentioned that the Navy had to call people out of 
retirement to service battleships because no one in the Navy or at the 
shipyards had the necessary skills.  Another frequent topic of conversation 
is whether we could still build Saturn V rockets.  Most people who know 
anything about it say that we could not because there's no one left who 
knows how to build all the requisite components.  What's important here is 
that there is a demand for a skill or piece of equipment, but the demand is 
not large enough for the market to continue to provide that skill or 
equipment.  

>The thing I was thinking is that large industrial worlds have
>the infrastructure, the technology, and the population to
>produce all the equipment they need; they might need food,
>but they probably make transponders.

	Even if they are technically capable of producing everything they 
need, there are still large gains from trade.  By specializing and then 
trading for what they don't specialize in, even large industrial worlds can 
end up wealthier.

>I'm still not convinced of the need for trade beyond a sector.
>High value, low volume goods can be produced by industrial
>worlds inside the sector -- perhaps only a subsector away.

Maybe they could, I don't know because I've never been on a TL-15 industrial 
world.  I can, however, show you that it is _possible_ to economically ship 
something multiple sectors.

Let's say that Capitol is about 350pcs away from Glisten along the trade 
routes.  It costs 400Cr/pc (in GT) to ship a dton of goods so that comes to 
140,000Cr for the journey.  Let's say Glisten is considering importing 
Neural Activity Sensors.  The hand-held versions are .5lbs and 20,000Cr.  
Since the NAS is so light and is hand-held, let's say that when packed it 
takes up one cubic foot.  In GT there are 500 cubic feet per displacement 
ton, so we can fit 500 NAS units in a one dton shipping container.  That one 
container of freight is worth 500*20,000 = 10MCr.  The cost of the journey 
is 140,000Cr, which is only 1.4% of the cost of the goods.  Therefore, if 
Capital has a price advantage through economies of scale or some other means 
of only 1.4%, it will be economical for Glisten to import NAS scanners all 
the way from Core Sector.  

Note that even if the goods to be shipped were two whole orders of magnitude 
less valuable, the cost of shippment would not even triple their price.  
Considering the Real World economies of scale available  today in many 
goods, it is not at all unreasonable to suppose that there are items that 
cost a third as much when produced in bulk rather than small batches.

>Now, the most useful thing I got from your posts is this clue:
>it takes about 1 billion people and helpful governments to make
>a TL7/8 society.  That's a number I can use.  Now I start the
>guesswork.  Do you think 1 billion people can produce a TL 9
>society?  How about 2 billion people?  How about 10 billion?
>Did 100 million people make a TL 4 or 5 society?

I have no idea.  The important point is the increasing complexity of the 
skills and equipment necessary to support increasingly high tech societies.  
The minimum number of people is not important to my point, the number of 
people where the gains from additional people reach the point of diminishing 
returns _is_ important.  If 100 trillion people are better than 10 trillion 
people for a TL-15 society, then we have a good reason for trade.

>The Darrian confederation had over 10 billion people, and
>eventually achieved TL 16.  Their people (and government)
>were deeply rooted in research, but they had warships too,
>and produced everything they needed for themselves.  They
>mined worlds a subsector away, too, so there was trade,
>prospecting, and exploitation going on.  And I'll allow that
>they had an advantageous alignment of culture, government,
>and resources.

The Darrians are obviously exceptional in many ways.  I have posted my 
explanation for the Darrians' success before.  Instead of repeating it, I 
will give you an equally canonical reference that supports the case for 
multi-sector trade. 

The Traveller Adventure, pg. 136: "Naasirka is a megacorporation which 
predates the founding of the Imperium.  Its emphasis is on computers, and it 
is best known as the supplier of communications equipment to the xboat 
service.  Other fields it operates in include ship construction (primarily 
small craft) and software.  Naasirka also operates a transport line 
connecting Vland with Rhylanor."


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:11:19 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

I'd like to see the list of the Travellers' Starter Kit.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Mark Seemann [mailto:dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk]
		Sent:	Tuesday, April 20, 1999 1:15 PM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

		Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:48:48 -0400 "alvin plummer"
<aplummer@idirect.com> wrote:

		> [Aside: apparently, WBH obtained an internet award for
"most useless
		> single page" in ANY Roleplaying Game.  It's the page where
a Scout's
		> vest is described.  In detail.  With weight and cost, by
tech level.  
		> And a typically elegant DGP illustration thoughtfully
added.]

		Really!? That just shows you how different people are. My
players *love* the Utility Vest - their characters wear them all the time to
the point where I get tired of hearing the same old description:

		"I'm wearing my utility vest, remote earpiece, data/display
headset..." etc.

		We've actually reached a point where we've considered
compiling a Travellers' Starter Kit including all that nifty stuff that PCs
go out and buy anyway (but then we thought better of it).

		Sometimes I need to ask them:

		"But you're going to the Archduke's reception! Aren't you
wearing anything else?"

		(okay, I'm exaggerating, but you get the point).

		Mark Seemann
		mark@dk-online.dk (home)
		mse@oticon.dk (work)
		http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:13:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [ct-starships] Re: Bludgeoning the Technically Terminated 

> At 00:27 16/04/1999 -0400, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >sometime before, I wrote:
> >> On 12 Apr, Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > I find this assertation odd.  I have never hup0 a player *want* a
> >> > Type-A...  even those who got one for mustering out *immediatley*
> >> > sold it for a minor profit and designed a *real* ship that would
> >> > make money.
> >> 
> >> Firstly, it is perfectly possible to make bucketloads of cash with
> >> the Type A - generate a merchant with decent trader and broker skills
> >> and then choose your destinations well.
> >
> >I've done this a few times for practice and paid off a Type A in under 2
> years.
> 
> There was the time I took a cargo of fresh farm produce to Fulacin.
> The referee said that, whilst Fulacin would pay well for some of the cargo,
> the population of about 10 didn't want all 80std...

Funny you should mention that...  In one of the PBEMs I play, Fulacin is our 
next stop.  <grin>
 
> >> Secondly, your players sold a Type A, took the profits and bought a
> >> better ship?
> >> 
> >> I'm confused.
> >> 
> >> The Type A is MCr37, the deposit is 20% so if you sell it for the
> >> full market price, you only get MCr7.4 back to act as a deposit on
> >> their next ship. In practice, the bank would want cancellation fees
> >> and the person who buys a secondhand ship would pay less than full
> >> price - so they would make a loss.
> >
> >If you have the Type A paid off and get the book value for it, you get MCr
> 37, 
> >which you can use for the deposit on the new ship.  What I've done in the
> past 
> >is, kept on trading after the Type A is paid off, with the profits rolled
> over 
> >to build up to the deposit needed for the new ship.  Then, when the new ship 
> >is about due to be delivered, sell the Type A for whatever you can get to 
> >finance the first trade pioneering cruise.  <grin>  Timing is everything.
> 
> Michel said his players *immediately* sold the ship, so the most they could
> get back was the deposit.
> Even after only 2 years, you still won't get book value (ie MCr37) for it.

Depends on how well the ship's been maintained, etc.  There's a chart in LOM that you can roll on to figure out who wants to buy the boat, what fraction of 'book' value they'll pay, etc.  Course, you probably don't have LOM...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:18:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TML Talmudic discussion sub-list (was: Failed Societies)

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 

> Oy!  Problems like this to deal with in real life, we should be so lucky
> to have.

Not really, because the arrival of the K'Kree would be very much like
Independence Day, and since they are so conservative, Jeff Goldblum's
little Mac laptop trick wouldn't work...too advanced. I wonder if we
could make a laptop-sized portable Altair...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:22:15 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

So has anyone gone to the trouble of compiling a basic Traveller Starter
kit, If so many TML inquiring minds
would probably like to see a list of items...hint<winking eye>hint<winking
eye>etc.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Seemann <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures


>Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:48:48 -0400 "alvin plummer" <aplummer@idirect.com>
wrote:
>
>> [Aside: apparently, WBH obtained an internet award for "most useless
>> single page" in ANY Roleplaying Game.  It's the page where a Scout's
>> vest is described.  In detail.  With weight and cost, by tech level.
>> And a typically elegant DGP illustration thoughtfully added.]
>
>Really!? That just shows you how different people are. My players *love*
the Utility Vest - their characters wear them all the time to the point
where I get tired of hearing the same old description:
>
>"I'm wearing my utility vest, remote earpiece, data/display headset..."
etc.
>
>We've actually reached a point where we've considered compiling a
Travellers' Starter Kit including all that nifty stuff that PCs go out and
buy anyway (but then we thought better of it).
>
>Sometimes I need to ask them:
>
>"But you're going to the Archduke's reception! Aren't you wearing anything
else?"
>
>(okay, I'm exaggerating, but you get the point).
>
>Mark Seemann
>mark@dk-online.dk (home)
>mse@oticon.dk (work)
>http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:46:28 -0700
From: Eric Holmes <eholmes@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Experience Systems:  TML V1999 #472

Dave:

Being a Classic Traveller referee and seeing the lack of self
improvement, my players and I have come up with a Traveller-esque
experience system, that seems to have lasted fairly well over the
years.  I started refereeing in 1979 - 80:

1)  If a member of the PC party had instructor skill, that individual
could teach another PC to a skill one level less than the skill being
taught, based upon the Instructor skill.  Example:  Instructor 3, Pilot 6
teaches level:  Pilot 2.  

Time requried per skill level:  One year if  "After Hours" (2hrs per day),
six months "Part Time"  (4hrs per day) and three months "Full Time" (8hrs
per day).

2)  If a PC had a particularly exceptional roll (BoxCars or 18+), an
asterisk was 
assigned to the skill.  This was then converted into an additional skill
level per asterisk
at the end of a PC's adventure year.  Not real time play, but adventure time 
based upon the Imperial calendar.  The maximum I allow for skills to reach
is six (6).

3)  After a PC earned 1MCr, their Social Standing went up.  Simulates
the creation of the Nouveau Riche Syndrome.  Nobility did not come until
an appropriate deed had been done to warrant a nomination.  Fees for
"Knighthood" are usually to the tune of 1MCr to the Sector Noble in power.
Dukes and Duchesses always have the right to create new nobility.  That's
another way to finance their own positions.  Also, the creation of knightly
orders 
within the Imperium allows direct funding of royal personages.    Another
way to
get into an order is posthumously, but that only helps your spouse and
offspring.

4)  I also developed the "RNA Implant".  If a PC desired a particular
skill, then
an RNA implant could be paid for to bring the PC's skill level up or allow
a new skill to be learned.  The maximum level any skill could be brought
up to is six (6).  Everything was based upon a 20KCr price per skill level
with a
1d6 times 10KCr rolled for additional medical fees.  The maximum number of
times I allowed this per PC was two in a lifetime.  The brain just couldn't
handle
the additional input.

5)  I also have ways to develop Strength, Dexterity and Endurance.  But I don't
have those at my finger tips.  Will get back later.  The maximum I allow a PC
to have in those Primary stats is 18 for a human.  Other races may have lower
or higher stat maximums.  I have recently been batting around the idea of
improving Psi Strength.  Not sure how this could change the mechanics IMTU.

I think the T4 system can get to be subjective, that's why I really didn't
incorporate
it with the above.  Just some ideas and food for thought.


Dave Nelson wrote:
<Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:10:00 EDT
>Subject: Experience Systems
>
>	I was just wondering what everybody thought about the various systems 
>for character experience in the various Traveller editions.  As best as I 
>remember, they went something like this:
>
>	CT:   you rolled him up, that's the end of the story, unless you 
>undergo long-term training.
>	Mercenary: Instruction skill can be used to teach new skills
>	MT:  adventure tally points can add up to a chance to get a new skill.
>	TNE: I don't really remember
>	T4: 1-3 experience points  per adventure,  Each point allows a chance 
>to improve 1 skill (roll above skill on 1d6).
>	T4.1: get 1 exp star per session on most effectively used skill.  At 
>end of year, skill with most stars is raised by 1, other stars erased.
>
>	I personally liked the T4 system since it allowed you to award points 
>based on outcome of the adventure as a reward system.  
>

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:25:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: On Farscape...

From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
<prior quoted info snipped to conserve bandwidth>
> I'm interested to see if Humans are descendents of the Peace 
> Keepers (can't remember their name) or vice versa.  Now that would 
> be Traveller'ish (or H. Beam Piper'ish).

The Peace Keepers' race was called the Seldanians (sp?).  Apparently 
they greatly resemble humans, but have next to no tolerance for 
temperatures much over room temp.

I would like to see some connection between the Seldanians and 
Humans, if only as an explanation for their extremely similar 
appearance.  None of the other aliens shown greatly resemble one 
another (except for Dago's race and their genetic cousins, and the 
writers covered that connection.)

What I'm interested in learning more about are Xan's people and their 
customs.  :)

Enjoy,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:32:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Celtic Matriarchy

On 04/20/99 20:25:23 you wrote:
>The original poster was quite correct - in many (but not all) cases, Celtic
>Britons were both matrilineal and matriarchal societies. It is important to
>remember that there was no Celtic nation and that many of the tribes were
>wildly different from others. For example, the Brigantes (from whom our
>modern word 'brigand' and the name Britain itself are derived) were very
>much matrilineal and matriarchal. In this case, the queen ruled on behalf 
of
>the goddess, but her husband was responsible for managing the people of the
>tribe and the use of force. Similar to the situation in early Ur and other
>Mesopotamian city states (read the Epic of Gilgamesh for the earliest
>documented political struggle against exactly this arrangement).

	Berkeley has the only undergraduate program in Celtic Studies in the 
United States.  When I was a student there I took a class in the department 
which covered basic Celtic myths, beliefs, government systems, etc.  It was 
certainly made clear that women enjoyed a great deal of equality, but it was 
never mentioned or even hinted that Celts were ever matriarchal.  Given 
where I was taking the class I don't think this was from any lack of desire 
to be PC.  Do you have some reputable sources for this?
	The reference to "the goddess" I also find suspect.  It is a term I've 
only heard from "New Age" sources and it was again not something ever 
brought up in my course.  I also am wondering in what way the queen might be 
said to rule if her husband had responsibility for management and warfare.  
What's left?


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:29:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

At 07:15 PM 4/20/99 +0200, you wrote:

>"But you're going to the Archduke's reception! Aren't you wearing anything
else?"
>
>(okay, I'm exaggerating, but you get the point).

I've had characters in my games claim that since Combat Armor is a military
uniform, and they're veterans, they can wear CA to the Archduke's Ball.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:36:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

At 01:21 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Sometimes I try to tell people what this list is about.  I rarely succeed.

That's OK.. I'm also on the David Duchovny list, and we haven't even
mentioned him, except in passing, for well over two years...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:35:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-BD weapon for GT

At 10:39 AM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Then damage is wrong (should be 6d*18) and weight is _still_ wrong (should
>be 12) and range is _still_ wrong.  Extremely short barrel has the correct 
>range (and is only 6 lb with a rifle grip), but only does 6d*12, not 6d*24.

RECALL ALERT!

Gridlore Technologies has ordered an immediate recall of its 20mm IAAW system.

"Evidently, it violates some law of physics or the other." said Cassandra
Gridlore CXXI, GT's Hereditary Legal Consul.

Users should send the weapon, in the original packing, with all the
original Styrofoam peanuts (we check) to:

R. J. Gumby
#3, Up the Back Stairs
Zummquissitt
Halifax
Zhodane

Thank you.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:39:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

At 05:58 PM 4/20/99 +0100, you wrote:

>I think you are correct. What happens to the others that don't ? Do the
>Imperial just come in and say "This system is now Imperial Terratry." and
deny
>them access to Space ? The Imperium rules the space between the worlds ...
>What are peoples thoughts ?

The Imperium probably charges them an arm and a leg in tarriffs.

For a large, prosperous nation, that's bearable (sse the discussion on
cutting off trade to a world for more details.)  For example, if the Little
Green Men came down today, and offered us membership in the Galactic
People's Revolutionary Collective, the United States could probably exist
without the offworld trade.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:41:36 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Failed Societies

In a message dated 4/19/99 11:26:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< The Book of Leviticus provides:
 
 11:2   Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the
         beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the
         earth.
  
 Because the K'Kree are sentient, they aren't "beasts" and so can't be
 eaten at all.  
 
 If they are considered beasts, however, we can ask the questions of
 11:3:  are they cloven-hoofed and do they chew the cud?  I don't
 remember, and don't have anything on the K'Kree handy.
 
 --Glenn >>


	Ahh, yes, but the K'kree are not "on the earth" are they?  Does this 
then apply?

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Maybe they could, I don't know because I've never been on a TL-15 industrial 
> world.  I can, however, show you that it is _possible_ to economically ship 
> something multiple sectors.

And lets not forget the occassional bizare oddity -- during the gold rush
in California (1849) it was not uncommon for dirty laundry to be loaded
onto ships, sent to China to be cleaned, and then returned to the States.

Economically sensible???  Well it must have made sense under the
conditions -- nobody in California wanted to be doing laundry when they
could be hunting for gold instead.

Just thought I'd toss that into the mix. Some things that seem
inexplicable might be sensible under the right conditions.

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #477
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 478



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Re: Experience Systems
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Interstellar Trade
Travellers' Starter Kit
Pyramid Article: Background Investigations
Re: Economics of drop tanks 
Handwaves for Maximum potential Tech Level
Re: the Spam
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: Failed Societies
Re: TML Talmudic discussion sub-list (was: Failed Societies)
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: Pyramid Article: Background Investigations
Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules
GTL9 Crew Requirements
Re: Experience Systems:  TML V1999 #472
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 06:58:52 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000amoqeqqm

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:01:24 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:14:27 -0400, Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
 
>> I encountered an interesting factoid (veracity undetermined)
>> while reading the soc.history.what-if newsgroup.  On my way to
>> the bank to get some cash, it was percolating through what's left
>> of my mind, and teamed up with some arcane constructions that can
>> be used to justify some things that would _seem_ to be against
>> Traveller canon.  This was the result...
 
>> NewsNet Special Alert
 
>> CARLSMONT CITY, 110-1105 - Grand Prince Isharii, Prince Royal of
>> the Principality of Carlsmont, has been seriously injured in an
>> air-raft accident while returning from a ski holiday in the
>> northern mountains.  He is undergoing surgery at ...
 

>Snip of excellent adventure idea.

>The one fly in the ointment here is the known Imperial practice of
>freezing ova and sperm for later need, particularly for higher ranking
>nobles.

_Imperial_ practice.  Grand Prince Isharii isn't necessarily an
_Imperial_ noble; he's merely the head of state and head of
government of a member world.  Cryogametopreservation doesn't
necessarily happen.  Eleven thousand worlds, each with (probably)
at least one baron, separate from the _local_ power structure.
Plus Marquises, Counts, and Dukes.  And would the President of
the Republic of Saint Martin be cryogametopreserved?  He doesn't
have a noble title from Saint Martin, nor from the Imperium, but
he is the equal of Grand Prince Isharii, whose title as Prince
Royal of Carlsmont derives from the _local_ culture.

If you assume that it does, however, you've given some
interesting possible twists.

The same background could also quite possibly be used, if Ramduur
is a twin, for a "Prisoner of Zenda"-type complication - or a
"Prince and the Pauper" scenario.  Lots of room here for referees
to play.  That's why I called it a "hook" instead of an
adventure.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:02:33 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Experience Systems

> 	TNE: I don't really remember

1 xp per adventure.  Bonus points by either:

1) Ref can award bonus point for any skill used repeatedly or in a 
"particularly dangerous" situation.  Also can award an additional point or 2 
as a reward for good role playing or for for a "notably heroic deed."

or

2) Peer Determination.  Have each player right down 2 or 3 praiseworthy 
things (no votes for self).  Probably 2-3 points per player per session.  
(Referee veto, of course).

I always used 1 (players never seemed interested in 2).


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:02:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks 

> Rather than spend time and energy debating why drop tanks *can't* work the
> way they're supposed to, why not figure out how they *can*? At least in GT,

Which is what IMO should be used for alot of the canon bugs.  At least for 
the OTU.  Anyone's own TU is their business, of course, if that even needs to 
be said...

> drop tanks will be considerably more expensive than in CT/HG (>Cr80,000 per
> dton, even with the "Cheap" option). Also, am I not correct that all these
> analyses (including mine) hinge on drop tanks being reuseable? Perhaps this
> is one source of difficulty.

That is what was said about them.  Whether this is reasonable or not depends 
on teh intricacies of jump drives, which is another ball of fur.  ;-)  I was 
looking at them for some of my own FF&S (original) ship designs (300-400) and 
found it was in the hundreds of thousands, per drop tank, IIRC.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:02:12 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

> We've seen an *opinion* by Chris Thrash that under GT rules Drop Tanks had
> only a 15% cost advantage. Yup, only 15%, in an Imperium with interest
> rates in low single figures.

Sure looked like an analysis.  ;-)  There hasn't been anything in the way of 
refuting it, either.  There was also an MT one with the same results.  The 
cost advantage is offset by the complexity (comparable to LASH IIRC).  I now 
have Far Trader and must say it looks quite excellent.  Particularly, there 
are no glaring typos or immediate erratta that jump out at me (and I do view 
the SJG erratta page).  

> Gary, I've done the work. They do to Imperial trade and society what
> railroads did to trade and society on Earth. For a start, you get mass
> tourism and such - a 1 dton bunk puts a jump-6 return trip at about 2
> months pay for many Imperial citizens.

It's the particular timeframe that's the issue.  Not the end result,which 
noone disputes.  It's very debatable (and has been disputed w/ Far Trader and 
MT, of which TNE and Merchant Prince are the same IIRC, w/o refutation) that 
it will be in a short enough time period to invalidate any of the canon 
setting.  Now the future?  Sure.  But that's the way things should be.  
Shipping gets revolutionized.  New tech.  New methods of doing things.  etc 
etc.

> Gary, I'd be more than interested to see you throw some numbers about in
> support of your position.

There've been a couple that have precluded the need for me to do so.  I am 
interested in seeing the other side's, so i can decide what the Reformation 
Coalition is going to do w/ drop tanks for MTU.  Particularly if the new 
shipping is going to be using drop tanks, or whether the complixity and costs 
of drop tank shipping will mostly cancel out the benefits, on the smaller 
scale the RC is.  There hasn't yet been anything from the other side...  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:09:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

At 01:46 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>And lets not forget the occassional bizare oddity -- during the gold rush
>in California (1849) it was not uncommon for dirty laundry to be loaded
>onto ships, sent to China to be cleaned, and then returned to the States.
>
>Economically sensible???  Well it must have made sense under the
>conditions -- nobody in California wanted to be doing laundry when they
>could be hunting for gold instead.

actually, what the 49ers would do is sell their old clothes to the ship
captians, who would then take it to China where it would be cleaned and
meanded, and then be brought back to San francisco to be sold as
second-hand clothes.  The clothing was used to line the hold for more
important cargoes.

It's also interesting to note that many of SF's early buildings were
actually ships that were de-masted, hauled up on shore, overturned and had
a door cut into them.  As we continue building, we keep finding these "Gold
Mansions" at various points of the city.

ObTrav: All sorts of ideas.. the trading factor on a frontier world who
operates out of a gutting Type A at the Starport's edge...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:14:14 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Travellers' Starter Kit

Well, I don't have a copy of the gear kit from
last year's campaign but I'll be happy to submit
the first item for the oh-fishul TML's "Generic
Gear Kit, Mk. 1".

The one item *no* player's kit should be without
is:

(drumroll and crash of cymbals)

Duct Tape!

Great for small punctures, hose blowouts, lashing gear
to vehicles, holding bandages to wounds, and securing
a pesky/noisy prisoner. The more you use, the better
it works!

It also can be used to resole your favorite boots and
can function as an emergency dipilatory on those
*long*-range scout missions! (Ask your parents before
trying this at home, kids.)

Remember, that's Duct Tape!

Available at all quality hardware stores in Startown.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:14:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Pyramid Article: Background Investigations

Greetings, All,

SJGames' Pyramid magazine has an excellent article on generating 
background investigation results on the fly.  The article is called 
"Quick and Dirty Background Investigation Reports", by Shane Ivey.  
With a little touching up, it could work wonders for a Traveller 
game.  Under Criminal Background, change federal felony to Imperial 
felony, alter some of the listed crimes to fit the Traveller milieu, 
adjust some of the Medical Record results to cover limb regeneration 
and other advanced medical techniques and situations, and of course 
alter the location charts of the personal background section, and 
voila!  Instant background creation for those PCs who want access to 
everyone's records instantaneously.  :)

"Come on, it's the internet at TL 15!  Whaddya mean, 'System 
error.  Unable to access local data-net.  Performing Level I 
diagnostic.'  How long is that gonna take?"

:)

Enjoy,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:02:32 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks 

> >Pot, Kettle?  Give some objective analysis that doesn't "support" your
> >preconceived conclusions and you might even sway me.  I don't think you 
have
> >anything but strawmen up your sleeves, though I would be glad to see
> >otherwise.  You have some assumptions that COULD actually be valid (if the
> >economics rules were altered, though), but you've given nothing beyond your
> >opinion to support it.
> 
> Gary, you have thrown generalities, strawmen, etc at me all along,
> and tried to accuse me of the doing the so at the same time.  I

I am actually interested in anything objective (read: number crunching) you 
might have, though I don't really expect to see anything.  Your opinion 
hasn't proven up to snuff, though, as I'm sure mine hasn't to you.

> asked to stick to the subject and you contiued.  I stopped resonding
> to your post (giving you the last word) and you were the one who jumped
> into something I posted in response to Hans with more genralities.

I'm not interested in the last word.  You post to anyone in a public forum 
and I'll respond, if I have the desire to.

> I have responded to arguements with arguements.  I have posted
> more analysis and secifics than you have.  I am also willing

You have??  Or from a previous discussion of this topic?  Could you repeat 
these or point me to em?

> to rest on what I have posted with others without having to
> "claim victory" in a revisionist way.  

I'm not interested in 'claiming victory,' either.  Very little minds get 
changed, though mine isn't yet made up.  I want to know whether the RC should 
be using them or not.  Now that I have Far Trader, i'm going to use it to run 
some numbers (it's on the queue of things to do), eventually.

That they're the end of Traveller economics as we know it (which sums up how 
I perceived your argument) has not been proven (indeed, seems to have been 
effectively disputed by others).

> Before I was just not
> responding to most of what you post.  I guess I will just
> have to stop reading you posts too.

Bummer.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:51:14 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Handwaves for Maximum potential Tech Level

And now, without further a doo-doo, I present Rob's
Completely Insane Handwave for Figuring a World's
Maximum Technological Level.

Take your favorite world.  What's its theoretical maximum
technological level if it develops in isolation?  Well, here's
my handwave to figure that out.  (Note: I'd probably use
Pocket Empires or even Classic Traveller instead of this
system, but it's interesting to look at other formulae):

Population   Max TL
1             1
1000          2
60,000        3
1 million     4
10 million    5
60 million    6
280 million   7
1 billion     8
3 billion     9
10 billion    A
26 billion    B
62 billion    C
138 billion   D
289 billion   E
576 billion   F
1 trillion    G
2 trillion    H
3.5 trillion  J

( formula: TL^10 = minimum population)

Bonuses:
+1 per planetoid belt (TL9+)
+1 if there are gas giants (TL9+)
+1 if industrial world
+1 if rich world
perhaps a bonus for certain government types


So, Sol's maximum TL may be C or D, if we top out at
40 billion people and spread them out among the belt, Mars,
etc.  Beats me how long that exploitation can be sustained.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:47:48 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: the Spam

j a c wrote:
> 
> Was there a comment to be included with this?
> 
The comment, sir, was the rewording of it as a Trav parody of Spam.

*sigh*

<<snip>>


- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:58:23 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

WBH is great:)

I'm using it now in my Scout campaign...The players all were overjoyed when I showed them it had the deckplans to the Donosev they were using...First In should be good too...Lots more ideas too...

Mike

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:02:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

In a message dated 4/20/99 1:15:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Clint.Fishback@digital.com writes:

<< I'd like to see the list of the Travellers' Starter Kit.
 >>

ditto!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:01:12 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

In a message dated 4/20/99 1:09:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk writes:

<< Try explaining US politics to a
 British citizen - or ours to an American, I suppose. >>

I've done it on private E mail with another TMLer. Interesting...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:03:21 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: TML Talmudic discussion sub-list (was: Failed Societies)

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> So does that mean they can't be eaten, or that they can?  Or can they be
> eaten only when they're not on the earth, but if they come to earth,
> then you have to go through the Leviticus analysis?  Do these
> commandments only apply on Terra, or on any world? but what about in
> normal space? j-space?
> 
I am reminded of two items:  Harry Turtledove's short story "The
R-Strain", about a gengineered pig that chews a cud (a noted rabbi is
asked to determine whether R-strain pigs are therefore kosher) ; and
Joel Rosenberg's stories about the Metzadan Mercenary Corps, in which it
is stated that, off Metzada, the dietary rules don't apply.  (One
retired merc, off-world for the first time in years, marks the occassion
by having a bacon cheeseburger.)

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:58:59 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

In a message dated 4/20/99 12:49:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk writes:

<< [Aside: apparently, WBH obtained an internet award for "most useless
 > single page" in ANY Roleplaying Game.  It's the page where a Scout's
 > vest is described.  In detail.  With weight and cost, by tech level.  
 > And a typically elegant DGP illustration thoughtfully added.]
 
 Really!? That just shows you how different people are. My players *love* the 
Utility Vest - their characters wear them all the time to the point where I 
get tired of hearing the same old description:
  >>

I don't have WBH, as I have Scouts, Grand Census and Grand Survey 
instead...What else does WBH have that GC-GS doesn't?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:05:58 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Pyramid Article: Background Investigations

Jason Kemp wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> ...voila!  Instant background creation for those PCs who want access to
> everyone's records instantaneously.  :)
> 
> "Come on, it's the internet at TL 15!  Whaddya mean, 'System
> error.  Unable to access local data-net.  Performing Level I
> diagnostic.'  How long is that gonna take?"
> 
Or how about:  "Three thousand years in the future, and you _still_ get
the BSOD?!?"

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:26:37 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re:New GT Engineering ModulesNew GT Engineering Modules

>I put up some stats on TL9 beam weapons on my site.  Please check the
>number before use...
>
>
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>	     Gearhead-in-Training
>
>--
>Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
>IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+
>	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601
>jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
>                         defend to the death your right to say it."
>                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire
>#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
>                         			     -- Albert Einstein
>
>for PGP public-key and
>more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
>WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/

And my browser is acting up again. :-(

Any chance you could email me a design?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:53:00 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: GTL9 Crew Requirements

I think I followed the VE2 calculations correctly when I designed the jump
drive and thruster modules. If I did, then we have a problem with GTL9
ships, because they end up having to have a _lot_ of crewmembers, more than
fit on the ship!

If I _didn't_ make a mistake, then we have to conclude that the VE2 system
is broken as regards Traveller GTL9 starships (because it can't duplicate
Classic Traveller ships of that tech level).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:04:48 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Experience Systems:  TML V1999 #472

In a message dated 4/20/99 4:25:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eholmes@lanl.gov 
writes:

<< 
 I think the T4 system can get to be subjective, that's why I really didn't
 incorporate
 it with the above.  Just some ideas and food for thought.
 
  >>
It is true that it can get subjective, but as a referee I find it useful.  
The T4 system is the only one that alows the referee to grant exp rewards 
based on game-oriented goals. Here's an example of how it can be used (from 
one of the adventures of mine you can find at Freelance Traveller): 

Abject Failure:   If the players end up in prison for illegal activities or 
fail meet the terms for initial employment, then the patron will not pay, the 
troopers will quit and the characters receive no experience points.

Failure:    If the contents of the merchant ship are destroyed by a bomb or 
rioters, or the base captured by the attackers, then the mission is a 
failure.   Any remaining troopers will quit the unit, and the patron will not 
pay.  Each surviving character receives 1 experience point. 

Success:  If the ship and its cargo is intact with only minor additional 
damage, but the unit or base personnel have suffered fatalities, then the 
patron will pay the 100,000cr, and each character will receive 2 experience 
points.  Each wounded NPC soldier will quit the unit, and players must roll 
an Average Leadership skill task to retain each other soldier in the unit. 

Complete Success:  if the ship and its cargo is intact with no additional 
damage and the unit has suffered no fatalities, then the patron will pay the 
agreed upon 100,000cr, the soldiers in the unit will want to continue in the 
player's employ, and each character will receive 3 experience points.


It works nicely with the T4 experience system, but it is imperative that the 
referee decide before the adventure what goals need to be met to get an 
experience point.
The dowside is that the T4 system is the only system where the skill gaining 
technique is divorced from the character generation system.  A character 
could conceiveably gain 3 low level skills after one adventure.

T4.1 is best in that regard as players gain skills at about the same rate as 
they did while in service (although slightly slower: 1 per year instead of 
about 1.5 per year).
T4.1 however allows easier access to high level skills, it is just as easy to 
get Medic-9 as it is to get Rifle-2.

In comparison, in T4 if you wanted to get Medic-6 skill, your incentive is to 
gain as many exp. points as possible during a year, and keep rolling for that 
6.  In T4.1, the sensibkle thing to do is get one * in medic, and then lay 
low for the rest of the year.

I agree that the CT system is probably most realisitic--you learn skills by 
going to an instructor.   There are advantages to that (and it's another way 
to suck away PC's money).   But I like the link between skill use and skill 
improvement

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:14:53 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

Well, I believe I finally see the light.

Actually, all that was needed was the reference to megacorporations.
If long-haul trade isn't feasible, then megacorps are less feasible.  On
the other hand, introduce long-haul trade and megacorps become so
very powerful.

Also, Jim's example helped quite a lot.  It's nice to see examples.
I do recall that we can't build battleships or Saturn Vs anymore.  We
can't get to the moon anymore!

So let me get this straight: there are industrial items in the Imperium
which are necessary for high-tech worlds to have, but are only made
on a few worlds because demand is low.

For instance:

   Starport components
   Municipal power plants (i.e. huge ones)
   Belt refineries and mining equipment
   Factories
   Military starships
   Starships larger than 99,999 tons
   Spinal weapons (ah, this is military, eh?)
   Hydroponics facilities
   Domed cities / grav cities / orbital colonies

I think this is going to take some time to digest, but it sounds reasonable...

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:10:10 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

In a message dated 4/20/99 4:36:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jmaclean@ix.netcom.com writes:

<<  It was 
 certainly made clear that women enjoyed a great deal of equality, but it was 
 never mentioned or even hinted that Celts were ever matriarchal.  Given 
 where I was taking the class I don't think this was from any lack of desire 
 to be PC.  Do you have some reputable sources for this? >>

	You are right.  While in general women enjoyed more freedom and 
equality among Celts and Germans than among Romans, and among Romans than 
among Greeks, and among Greeks more than Middle Eastern cultures,  the idea 
that Celts were matriarchal is a modern conceit without ancient documentary 
support.   THe closest you get to mention of a matriarchal society in the 
ancient world might be a description of the women-ruled tribes  in Tacitus' 
Germania--and notice that these are said to be the most remote and distant 
from the Romans who are Tacitus' source  (suspiciously far enough away to be 
of any depenable use).

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:12:35 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

In a message dated 4/20/99 2:15:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< It's also interesting to note that many of SF's early buildings were
 actually ships that were de-masted, hauled up on shore, overturned and had
 a door cut into them.  As we continue building, we keep finding these "Gold
 Mansions" at various points of the city. >>

and they survived the '06 quake and fire?!...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:15:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> I've had characters in my games claim that since Combat Armor is a military
> uniform, and they're veterans, they can wear CA to the Archduke's Ball.

Gotta love players.  Under Imperial military regulations, of course,
armor is undress uniform, not dress, and therefore the PCs will be
inadequately attired to obtain admission to the Ball.  It would be a bit
like showing up in camouflaged hunting clothes or a football uniform
when they should be in black tie or an evening gown.

If they were guards at the Ball, of course, the uniform of the day might
be armor -- and guards of the Archduke's Own Ashigaru certainly keep one
set of armor in perfect condition, to be worn only for inspections and
special events.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #478
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 479



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Saving the Throne
Re: K'Kree Fighter Craft
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Handwaves for Maximum potential Tech Level
Re: Saving the Throne
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: Interstellar trade
Space Dock mirror...
Re: Space Dock mirror...
GT
Re: Meson Guns
Re: Failed Societies
re: failed societies
SCRAM
Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: SCRAM
Re: Failed Societies
Re: "We're going to Graceland..."
Re: Skyron
Re: SCRAM
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:18:11 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Saving the Throne

Jeff Zeitlin writes:

>Canonically, the Imperium doesn't allow polities to join, only worlds.

Are you sure about that? I've always assumed that the Imperium didn't
like member multi-world polities (though I don't actually think that
is spelled out anywhere), but that it accepts it in some cases. An
example is Vilis and its colony world Garda-Vilis. Come to that, all
the megacorporations are, in a way, multi-world polities (all of them
control a number of worlds outright). And there's a number of other
colony worlds  shown in various UWP listings.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:13:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: K'Kree Fighter Craft

> In the K'Kree alien module, there's a reference to both fighters and tank
> units.  The folks that drive these things are considered "crazy but
> valuable".  I picture it as similar to high-steel workers or bomb
> squaders:  You don't know why they do the job, and you don't know how they
> manage, but they sure are useful.  

You beat me to it.  : )  A good reference is on pg 5 of AM 2.  Basically that 
their highly valued because of their rarity, but with suspicions on their 
mental stability.  They're allowed leeway where another in a different K'kree 
combat arm would be disciplined.

I also imagine RCVs would be popular too.  That, and lots of missiles and 
point defense.  K'kree "Patrols" probably consist of huge (by Imperial/human 
standards) "patrol craft."

Hmm...  I think i've got to brew up an adventure or two with some K'kree... 
haven't done it yet.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 08:29:36 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000cogmquac

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:24:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Handwaves for Maximum potential Tech Level

Rob Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> And now, without further a doo-doo, I present Rob's
> Completely Insane Handwave for Figuring a World's
> Maximum Technological Level.
> 
> Take your favorite world.  What's its theoretical maximum
> technological level if it develops in isolation?  Well, here's
> my handwave to figure that out.  (Note: I'd probably use
> Pocket Empires or even Classic Traveller instead of this
> system, but it's interesting to look at other formulae):
> 
<<snips chart>>
> 
> ( formula: TL^10 = minimum population)
> 
> Bonuses:
> +1 per planetoid belt (TL9+)
> +1 if there are gas giants (TL9+)
> +1 if industrial world
> +1 if rich world
> perhaps a bonus for certain government types
> 
One government type that could lead to bonuses is Type 7,
Balkanization.  The competition between rival nations on one world could
easily stimulate innovation.  Those nations that fail to innovate
technologically tend to get themselves conquered, or at least dominated,
by their more advanced neighbors.  Sort of a macro version of the old
saying, "There are two kinds of people:  the quick, and the dead."

<<snip>>

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:37:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Saving the Throne

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Jeff Zeitlin writes:
> 
> >Canonically, the Imperium doesn't allow polities to join, only worlds.
> 
> Are you sure about that? I've always assumed that the Imperium didn't
> like member multi-world polities (though I don't actually think that
> is spelled out anywhere), but that it accepts it in some cases. An
> example is Vilis and its colony world Garda-Vilis. Come to that, all
> the megacorporations are, in a way, multi-world polities (all of them
> control a number of worlds outright). And there's a number of other
> colony worlds  shown in various UWP listings.

Owned worlds are one thing, The Federation of Planets are another. The
Imperium doesn't want any rivals.

As far as megacorps go, yes they are multi-world; but the Imperium, in
many ways _is_ the megas, and vice versa. The heads of the megas are
likely very highly placed nobles. A very intertwined system so that
what's good for Marikhadun is good for the Imperium, and vice versa...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:00:00 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

Jim's main point, that certain high-tech items are not feasible to be
produced locally, but are more easily gotten from one of a small
number of production worlds, is an excellent defense for some
kinds of long-term trade.

Jim, you stated another point here:

>the number of people where the gains from additional people reach the point
>of diminishing returns _is_ important.  If 100 trillion people are better than 10
>trillion people for a TL-15 society, then we have a good reason for trade.

I understand that the logarithmic curve is a very useful toy.

This might be a problem.  There are thousands of societies in the Imperium,
separated by time/distance and culture.  Traveller seems to focus on
worlds or star systems, rather than its population.  Thus, there
aren't 15 trillion people; there are 11,000 worlds.  1 trillion people won't
be pulling in one direction; there will be something like 10,000 different
directions, with a local poulation pulling in each direction.  Moreover, each
domain will have its own goals; likewise sectors, subsectors, counties, and
worlds.

The most long-haul trade I see is done by megacorporations, which
basically buy goods locally and then ship between their own divisions
for redistribution.  A megacorp can absorb massive inventory costs
and can afford to wait for favorable markets.


Okay then, those who must order transsector, will.  But I don't think
we'll be able to find any labor pool greater than the tens of billions for
any one fabricated item.  I guess then what we need is a list of items
that a starfaring civilization absolutely needs but probably won't
produce.  Then divide each item into subcomponents, and say that
each industrial world builds a certain number of one of these
subcomponents.

Yah, that would do it.

Starport components
Municipal power plants
Belt refineries
Factories
Very large starship hulls
Spinal weapons
Hydroponics
High-tech city platforms

Say then that there are 4 subcomponents to each of the categories
above.  An industrial world will build one of these subcomponents.
So if your sector has 16 industrial worlds, you've got a 50% chance
that half of these subcomponents are build in your sector.

And it's not that an industrial world can't build all of them: it's just
that demand is low, specialization is high, so it's better for all worlds
involved to focus on one thing, do it well, and everyone makes
money.

Okay, I like that.  I like that a lot.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:05:33 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar trade

Rob Eaglestone writes:

>The Darrian confederation had over 10 billion people...

Where did you get that figure? I've been trying to find a figure for the
pre-Maghiz population of Darrian, but couldn't. If you have a reference,
I'd be really pleased.

My own SWAG came to 600 million.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:40:52 -0600
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Space Dock mirror...

I'm looking for someone who has a web site overseas (not in N.
America) who would be interested in hosting a copy of Space Dock
installation files on their site for the benefit of people living over
yonder who'd like an easier download. If you're interested, contact me
via e-mail.

Thanks,

Andrew

_______________________________________________
Space Dock...
...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:39:22 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Space Dock mirror...

What is Space Dock?


Andrew Batishko wrote:

> I'm looking for someone who has a web site overseas (not in N.
> America) who would be interested in hosting a copy of Space Dock
> installation files on their site for the benefit of people living over
> yonder who'd like an easier download. If you're interested, contact me
> via e-mail.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> Space Dock...
> ...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
> http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:42:08 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: GT

I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
everyones thought are on GT.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:58:02 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Meson Guns

At 10:54 PM 17/04/1999 -0500, you wrote:

>Of course, if you have a large enough fleet and are willing to get
>to chewed up then you might be able to overwhelm a planet's
>defenses.  That might be the only thing that works really well
>defended planets.
>
>Eris

        I just can't imagine any fleet admiral who will voluntarily move his
vessels within range of several dozen factor-T or *larger* meson sites that
he has to give the first three or four shots each free to (see triangulation
arguement in other thread) and are protected by two or three USP 9 meson
screens each.  I can't see it not being a slaughter...  
        It only gets worse if you give planet-based systems an extra range
band in High Guard, allowing them to get a round or two of fire which the
invader cannot respond to due to range.  Add in "icky-messies" like
multi-stage silo-launched 100-megaton thermonuclear missles aimed at his
"small stuff" like tankers, escorts and troop carriers, and I just don't see
how an invasion would happen.  I think the invader would mutiny first.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:44:24 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

>> The Book of Leviticus provides:
>>
>> 11:2   Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the
>>         beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the
>>         earth.
>>
>>  11:3   Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth
>>         the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
>>
>> Because the K'Kree are sentient, they aren't "beasts" and so can't be
>> eaten at all.
>
>Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
>aren't on the Earth, they're out in space, so they wouldn't
>qualify...  :)

Hm. But what about life on other planets?  Would the rabbis interpret
"earth" to mean planet, and thus each planet would have its list of kosher
foods? Would only earthlife be kosher? Or would all non-terrestrial animals
not be covered (and therefore allowed)?

IIRC, the same type of dietary restriction applies to Moslims as well. Does
anyone know enough about Islam to hazard an opinion?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:50:40 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: failed societies

>>>>> (begin quoted material)
>>The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
>>rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by
>now.
>>- Joseph
>
>True, but remember that not all of these functions are being performed
>to
>professional standards, so using professional rates of pay is an
>inappropriate comparison.
>Robert Prior
>>>>> (end quoted material)
>You are correct that few "housewives" could go out and get a
>professional level job doing any or all of these without education and
>training at professional levels.  However, this comparison is more along
>the lines of what it might cost to replace a housewife with all these
>different professionals doing their specialties.  There is a real cost
>for sending the housewife to work, and this can't be ignored without
>throwing off income/expense calculations.  (Again by "housewife" I am
>indicating the primary caregiver in the household regardless of
>gender).
>- Joseph

True. But, to pick an example, your average houseperson isn't a trained
psychotherapist, so even if they perform that function, to replace them you
wouldn't need to pay psychotherapist rates. You local psychic would be
cheaper (and, judging my some housepersons I've interected with, just as
good as a houseperson).

I guess what I should have stated is that you need to find out how much it
would cost to pay someone to perform the job _with the same training/skill
as the houseperson  performs it_ to make a valid comparison.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:11:49 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: SCRAM

        No, no, no, that's not what I meant.  Come back here.

        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc, etc.
I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard this
term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:14:58 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!

At 02:23 PM 18/04/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>To rwm@mpgn.com.
>
>Respectfully sir, if you don't stop spamming us at traveller@mpgn.com,
>we'll be forced to take genuine action.
>
>
>Jim Clem

        Hi, Jim....
        Actually, he caught me in a *bad* mood when he did this and I set my
Linux box to the task of returning his message back to him around 1400
times.  His mail server got the hint around 880, and deleted the account.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:09:57 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Well, I am totaly lost now.  You tell me to go away and then drag me back to ask
me questions I have no chance to answer...   Oh I'm so confused!

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         No, no, no, that's not what I meant.  Come back here.
>
>         Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
> happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
> *fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc, etc.
> I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard this
> term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!
>
>         --Michel
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>                 Michel R. Vaillancourt
>                 misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>                 ICQ # 31172292
>         Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist,
>                                 Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
>                 "Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>                 Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
>                 "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
>                 Into Traveller?  Check Out:
>                 "http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
>         -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:12:11 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
: Hm. But what about life on other planets?  Would the rabbis interpret
: "earth" to mean planet, and thus each planet would have its list of
kosher
: foods? Would only earthlife be kosher? Or would all non-terrestrial
animals
: not be covered (and therefore allowed)?
:
: IIRC, the same type of dietary restriction applies to Moslims as well.
Does
: anyone know enough about Islam to hazard an opinion?

The only opinion I could hazard is that the God of the Jew is held to be
the creator of the entire universe.  There would be many new volumes of
Talmudic commentary produced on the occasion on _any_ extra-terrestrial
discovery of life.  I hope, though, that these tomes will not be
published on the TML. Then again, if intelligent life were discovered
off planet, they might be Jews with additional revelation ;-)


- -C

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Visit the Subsidized Merchant on www.downport.com : A domain for
Traveller on the Web

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:26:22 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: "We're going to Graceland..."

>--M.A.R. Barker's world of Tekumel (Empire of the Petal Throne, Swords and
>Glory).

Isn't Tekumel located in either the "Far Fontiers" or "Foreven" sector?
:^)  I'm pretty sure it's located on my Foreven sector maps.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:35:11 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Skyron

>Not wanting to be difficult, but...
>According to canon, the world Fenris (Solomani Rim 1830) is the star
>Procyon. And according to the maps, the Fenris system has no gas giants.
>If they were to detect a gas giant around Procyon in the near future,
>what would we do?  :)


If this were to happen how about ruling that any gas giant "detected" in
a system that doesn't have a gas giant in Traveller is a gas giant that
cannot be used to fuel a ship.  Could anyone produce a pseudo-scientific
reason for a "gas giant" to be void of harvestable hydrogen?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:32:42 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

At 09:11 PM 4/20/99 -0300, you wrote:
>        No, no, no, that's not what I meant.  Come back here.
>
>        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
>happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
>*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc, etc.
>I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard this
>term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!

AFAIK (And I am by no means qualified to answer this), this is something
that only happens on nuclear-powered ships (I've only seen it in context of
a sub, but I see no reason this can't be used in other vessels).  A SCRAM
is the process of flooding the reactor with seawater in order to cool it
rapidly.  This is only done in _extreme_ emergencies, as it pretty much
destroys the reactor and floods the local ecosystem with tons of very
radioactive water.  AFAIK this has never actually been done IRL.

It seems to me that there is no way to SCRAM a reactor in space (unless
maybe you use the LH2 as a coolant?) and this doesn't apply to fusion.  To
stop a fusion reactor, simply vent the plasma overboard.

Again, I could be wrong here....





          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:10:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

On 04/20/99 14:09:25 Doug Berry wrote:
>It's also interesting to note that many of SF's early buildings were
>actually ships that were de-masted, hauled up on shore, overturned and had
>a door cut into them.  As we continue building, we keep finding these "Gold
>Mansions" at various points of the city.
>
>ObTrav: All sorts of ideas.. the trading factor on a frontier world who
>operates out of a gutting Type A at the Starport's edge...
>

	We beat you to this one! :-)  The correct answer is cargo containers!  
Many of the cargo containers in Far Trader would make great modular housing.  
In fact, IIRC, some are even designed for that purpose.  And don't forget 
the Modular Cutter pre-fab base modules.  I love the idea of a bunch of low-
tech scruffy types huddled around an E starport living in old cargo 
containers.  At some starports, the refined fuel tanks, office, etc. could 
all be old cargo containers.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:10:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 

> At 05:58 PM 4/20/99 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >I think you are correct. What happens to the others that don't ? Do the
> >Imperial just come in and say "This system is now Imperial Terratry." and
> deny
> >them access to Space ? The Imperium rules the space between the worlds ...
> >What are peoples thoughts ?
> 
> The Imperium probably charges them an arm and a leg in tarriffs.
> 
> For a large, prosperous nation, that's bearable (sse the discussion on
> cutting off trade to a world for more details.)  For example, if the Little
> Green Men came down today, and offered us membership in the Galactic
> People's Revolutionary Collective, the United States could probably exist
> without the offworld trade.

Until the first nation on Earth bought some advanced technology that puts everything we've got now in the Stone Age.  We're about TL8 (CT, not GURPS), think what would happen if some TL15 toys started coming onto the market.

There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society exporting 'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In Mirrorshades'.  Can't remember what book it was in, though.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:14:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:01:17 +0000, Charles Prevatte <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
>At 12:47 AM 4/18/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 09:21 PM 4/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction

>>>>>> Why must it be in the black market?  Why not have it open.  I can see
>>>>>> it now, "Regina Fried K'Kree" or RFK with 11 secret Herbs & Spices.
>>>*weg*
>>>>>Thus began the Sixth Frontier War: Imperium vs. K'Kree...
>>>>I say stuff the Rebellion and bring on the 6th Frontier War!
>>>
>>>
>>>    I agree.  *weg*  Let the 3I whup some K'Kree tushie.  They do make good
>>>eatin'.
>>
>>Ok, if the 3I and the horses go eyeball to halter, what do the Solomani and
>>Hivers do?  The Solomani might try and get involved in a land grab, but
>>would the Hivers perhaps try to "mediate" a cease fire or settlement?
>>
>>This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info on
>>the cattle ships.
>>
>
>They would probably be armed with mooson guns....
>
>or bison batteries...
>
>and moved by cattle drives...

The Abydos Playtest (a city that considers necromancy OK) degenerated
into jokes about zombie cattle jerky on the hoof.  What is it
about cattle?

:-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #479
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 480



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: SCRAM 
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 
Re: SCRAM
Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: SCRAM
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM 
Re: SCRAM 
Re: GT
re: SCRAM
re: SCRAM
Average Fleet Tactics skill
Legal Records
Re: Starship Size
RE: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: Pyramid Article: Background Investigations
TravJeopardy! presented by TravUndernet
Re: GT
Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures
Re: GT

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:20:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> At 09:11 PM 4/20/99 -0300, you wrote:
> >        No, no, no, that's not what I meant.  Come back here.
> >
> >        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
> >happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
> >*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc, etc.
> >I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard this
> >term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!
> 
> AFAIK (And I am by no means qualified to answer this), this is something
> that only happens on nuclear-powered ships (I've only seen it in context of
> a sub, but I see no reason this can't be used in other vessels).  A SCRAM
> is the process of flooding the reactor with seawater in order to cool it
> rapidly.  This is only done in _extreme_ emergencies, as it pretty much
> destroys the reactor and floods the local ecosystem with tons of very
> radioactive water.  AFAIK this has never actually been done IRL.

What a SCRAM is, is, the control rods slam home into the reactor, shutting off 
the fission.  It doesn't hurt the reactor, it stops the reactor from melting 
down from the reactions.

> It seems to me that there is no way to SCRAM a reactor in space (unless
> maybe you use the LH2 as a coolant?) and this doesn't apply to fusion.  To
> stop a fusion reactor, simply vent the plasma overboard.

Sure there is.  A CNO catalyst fusion reactor just needs its fuel supply cut.  
No fuel, no reaction.  A SCRAM would be a solenoid slamming home, cutting off 
fuel flow to the reactor.  The fusion pulses stop, and the magnetic field 
collapses shortly thereafter, the reactor vessel venting rapidly cooling 
plasma into space.  Congratulations, you're now on battery backup.
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 11:30:00 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000hbjjttbz

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:24:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Vargr and weapons of Mass Destruction 

> >>Ok, if the 3I and the horses go eyeball to halter, what do the Solomani and
> >>Hivers do?  The Solomani might try and get involved in a land grab, but
> >>would the Hivers perhaps try to "mediate" a cease fire or settlement?
> >>
> >>This has serious potential for a campaign.  Now all we need is some info on
> >>the cattle ships.
> >>
> >
> >They would probably be armed with mooson guns....
> >
> >or bison batteries...
> >
> >and moved by cattle drives...
> 
> The Abydos Playtest (a city that considers necromancy OK) degenerated
> into jokes about zombie cattle jerky on the hoof.  What is it
> about cattle?

I thought Abydos was the Gwauld's planet on 'Stargate: SG1'.  Course, they'd worship A-mooooon-Ra as a deity there...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:28:51 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

An emergency control rod drop to interupt the chain reaction.  In
extreme cases there may be need of a Safety Injection of highly borated
water to assist interuption of fission and provide emergency cooling.


Acting V.Adm. C. Michael,
Sword Worlds Navy, Gram Fleet:
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:42:41 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Travellers' Starter Kit

"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> types:
>Well, I don't have a copy of the gear kit from
>last year's campaign but I'll be happy to submit
>the first item for the oh-fishul TML's "Generic
>Gear Kit, Mk. 1".
>
>The one item *no* player's kit should be without
>is:
>
>(drumroll and crash of cymbals)
>
>Duct Tape!

GURPS:Far Trader, page 69, sidebar "Odds and Ends"
On of the items in the the "pocket pack" is "a roll of vacuum-proff sticky
tape (150 yrds x 2 inches).

It's good to know that gamers think along the same twisty little paths...


  
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
           Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:07:25 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

At 09:28 PM 20/04/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>An emergency control rod drop to interupt the chain reaction.  In
>extreme cases there may be need of a Safety Injection of highly borated
>water to assist interuption of fission and provide emergency cooling.
>
        Hi, SW!

        Ok, so, is "SCRAM" an ancronym, or just an adjective?

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:03:48 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

lol...  I always carry duct tape, paper clips and rubber bands.


Mark Urbin wrote:

> "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> types:
> >Well, I don't have a copy of the gear kit from
> >last year's campaign but I'll be happy to submit
> >the first item for the oh-fishul TML's "Generic
> >Gear Kit, Mk. 1".
> >
> >The one item *no* player's kit should be without
> >is:
> >
> >(drumroll and crash of cymbals)
> >
> >Duct Tape!
>
> GURPS:Far Trader, page 69, sidebar "Odds and Ends"
> On of the items in the the "pocket pack" is "a roll of vacuum-proff sticky
> tape (150 yrds x 2 inches).
>
> It's good to know that gamers think along the same twisty little paths...
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
>            Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
>                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:18:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:49:15 -0700, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
>> >Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?

>>  I intend to be there, being a San Leandro resident...

>Your already on the list.

Well, the proposal is getting me sick enough of work that I'm
thinking, why the heck not leave early that friday....

So who's organizing this thing?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:26:26 +1200
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
Subject: re: SCRAM

>
>        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what

>happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
>*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc,
etc.
>I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard
this
>term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!

SCRAM: An emergency shutdown of a nuclear reactor, done by driving
control rods to the bottom of the core using springs. A term left over
from the 1940's when primitive lab reactors had a single control rod
suspended by a rope. An emergyency shutdown would be done by cutting the
rope and letting the rod drop by gravity. The safety man was called the
Safety Control Rod Ax Man - Hence SCRAM.

Courtesy of Michael Dimercurio's book "Attack of the Seawolf"

I *THINK* you could simply shut down a fusion reactor - they're not
supposed to runaway like a fission reactor. So cutting the power should
kill the reactor.

Jonathan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:22:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> At 09:28 PM 20/04/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >An emergency control rod drop to interupt the chain reaction.  In
> >extreme cases there may be need of a Safety Injection of highly borated
> >water to assist interuption of fission and provide emergency cooling.
> >
>         Hi, SW!
> 
>         Ok, so, is "SCRAM" an ancronym, or just an adjective?

It's an acronym.  Can't for the life of me remember what it stands for...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:30:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> >
> >        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
> 
> >happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
> >*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc,
> etc.
> >I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard
> this
> >term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!
> 
> SCRAM: An emergency shutdown of a nuclear reactor, done by driving
> control rods to the bottom of the core using springs. A term left over
> from the 1940's when primitive lab reactors had a single control rod
> suspended by a rope. An emergyency shutdown would be done by cutting the
> rope and letting the rod drop by gravity. The safety man was called the
> Safety Control Rod Ax Man - Hence SCRAM.
> 
> Courtesy of Michael Dimercurio's book "Attack of the Seawolf"
> 
> I *THINK* you could simply shut down a fusion reactor - they're not
> supposed to runaway like a fission reactor. So cutting the power should
> kill the reactor.

Just cut the fuel feed.  Can't run a fusion reactor without fuel.  And LHyd 
ain't kept inside the reactor like fissionables are.  Like I said earlier, a 
simple solenoid snapping a valve shut would do the trick...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:39:23 -0400
From: "Dan Eveland" <develand@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: GT

I think it's great. I have been running it for a while now. I think the
space combat and sensor rules could use some clarifying, but overall, I love
it. I especially like the way I can still use my CT and MT adventures and
stuff. Seeing the black cover on the main rules was personally quite
satisfying, I must say.

I am running at several conventions, including Gen Con and most of the cons
in Florida. You can see stuff about the games I run at:

http://develand.home.mindspring.com/traveller/

I ran CT for a long time, but found the rules fragmented by development over
a great deal of time. I think GURPS in general is benefiting from a clear,
complete view of the Traveller universe from the very start, along with a
well-developed rules systems. Not much is created in a vacuum, and that
which is top-notch from the team at SJG.

The Vargr stuff was wonderful in Alien Races 1, and the Zhodani stuff
clarified a lot of cloudy, seemingly arbitrary characteristics about the
Zhodani. Far Trader is the coolest game books I have seen in a long time. I
wish the GURPS Traveller deckplans were better, though. All the background
detail is fascinating, and there is so much rich adventure opportunity, it's
almost hard to find a place to start writing scenarios!

General Steve Jackson Games opinion:
Best game company around and I will continue to support them by running con
games and buying books. I am a bit disappointed in convention support
though. Monica Stephens is overworked. I am running more than 15 GURPS
Convention games this year, and I'm not even on the MIB list and almost
never get a e-mail reply to my queries. The computer she works on seems
pretty bad too. I wish they would go to Gen Con.

General GURPS opinion:
The only thing I dislike, rather then just don't quite grasp, are the
massive number of skills and the variations on how defaults work with the
introduction of Compendium I. Some are IQ-4, some -5, some at another
skill -3, some at -4 or something else and perhaps a combination of several.
I would have liked to have seen the defaults streamlined and the skill list
reduced. These are personal feeling not shared with many others, I suspect.

Dan Eveland
develand@mindspring.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 7:42 PM
Subject: GT


>
> I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
> everyones thought are on GT.
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:39:18 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: SCRAM

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just cut the fuel feed.  Can't run a fusion reactor without fuel.  And LHyd 
ain't kept inside the reactor like fissionables are.  Like I said earlier, a 
simple solenoid snapping a valve shut would do the trick...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Someone was talking (here?) about the way fusion reactors in Weber's
Honor Harrington books had a way of exploding when damaged. IIRC
the final guess we came up with was that Weber's fusion reactors were
actually more akin to perpetual fusion bomb explosions contained by
high-capability gravitics tech. Damage to something like that would be
very, very bad.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:47:59 PDT
From: "Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: SCRAM

IIRC
SCRAM=Safety Control Reactor Axe-Man

A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.

I suppose you could SCRAM an out of control fusion reactor, by 
introducing a bunch of nonfusionable material quickly.  Flooding a 
chamber with a noble gas would be an idea, but if things have gone too 
far, the gas will just fuse and everything will blow something fierce. 
 Stopping the introduction of H2 would probably work even better- no 
fuel, no reaction, no explosion.  Keep the containment up and you're 
set.

Percy

P.S. i sent a message to the list earlier and it hasn't shown up yet 
(I'm on digest, and I've gotten 4 issues- is this normal?)

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:49:11 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Average Fleet Tactics skill

I'm still working on _Fleet Ops_, and noticed a need for information
(or at least educated guesses) on the average Fleet Tactics skill of
Admirals from different navies.

Fleet Tactics skill will be crucial to managing task forces in _Fleet Ops_,
allowing the Admiral to better arrange interceptions and pursuits. I was
planning on factoring it out of the rules all together (assume same levels
on each side so they factor out), but that doesn't match well with the 
ability to add PC's to the game - I'll at least need to know what I'm
factoring out, so I can reduce a PC Admiral's effective Fleet Tactics skill
accordingly.

So, bring on the guesses - what's the average Fleet Tactics level of a 
Zhodani Admiral? A Solomani? A Hiver? A Sword Worlder?

I'm not looking for the incompetent Santoneechev's or the Masterful
Arbellatra's - I'm looking for the average, the default that we modify
later with custom scenario rules or the presence of player characters.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:03:41 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Legal Records

This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
(services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
I still love this person?

The best thing I can come up with is some sort of WORM card that carries
images of all the important documents in your life.

Any other ideas?

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:20:30 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Size

At 03:24 PM 4/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Adahma writes:
>"I'm having a hard time deciding just how big a ship is 
>based on tonnage.  Can anyone give me some "real life" 
>comparisons, or is there a convert tonnage to square 
>footage formula I missed? :P"
>
>	IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), CT uses 13.5 cubic
>	meters to the 'displacement' ton. This works out to

	CT used 14 m^3, as the (approximate) volume of 1 metric ton of
liquid hydrogen. But that was a bit inconvenient for drawing deck
plans drawn with 1.5m squares, and MT redefined 1 metric ton of
liquid hydrogen as being 13.5 m^3 (two 1.5m squares and 3m deck
height). TNE decided it was better to change deck plans, to 2m
squares and a 3.5m deck height (hence 1 square was 0.5Td). T4, if I
recall correctly, went back to 1.5m squares, and 14m^3 displacement
tons ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:15:23 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: RE: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

>>		Really!? That just shows you how different people are. My
>>players *love* the Utility Vest - their characters wear them all the time to
>>the point where I get tired of hearing the same old description:
>>
>>		"I'm wearing my utility vest, remote earpiece, data/display
>>headset..." etc.
>>
>>		We've actually reached a point where we've considered
>>compiling a Travellers' Starter Kit including all that nifty stuff that PCs
>>go out and buy anyway (but then we thought better of it).

>
>I'd like to see the list of the Travellers' Starter Kit.

So would I! So would my players, a couple of whom are new to the
Traveller universe...

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:18:37 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Pyramid Article: Background Investigations

>and other advanced medical techniques and situations, and of course 
>alter the location charts of the personal background section, and 
>voila!  Instant background creation for those PCs who want access to 
>everyone's records instantaneously.  :)

>"Come on, it's the internet at TL 15!  Whaddya mean, 'System 
>error.  Unable to access local data-net.  Performing Level I 
>diagnostic.'  How long is that gonna take?"

All the Internet at TL 15 means that system errors are more
efficient than they used to be, and take place more quickly. 
:-D

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:20:06 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: TravJeopardy! presented by TravUndernet

Greetings!

This week we have a very special event planned for TravUndernet...

Traveller Jeopardy!

Presented by Thad Sneed.

Players will be selected the night of the game! Come early for best shot at
playing!

We're on Undernet, #Traveller, 8pm.  Email me privately for directions.  An
FAQ is coming soon to the website. http://home.att.net/~websuz/ .

Cheers!

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:23:19 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: GT

>I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
>everyones thought are on GT.

Put it this way -- I bought a copy shortly after it became available
in this part of the universe. I loved it. One of the guys in my biweekly
Champions game had played Traveller in the past, and was interested in 
seeing it. So a few weeks later I brought it with me to the game. The 
collective response: "So, when are we going to start a GURPS Traveller 
campaign?"

(Starting this coming Saturday night, actually... with me running it.)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:20:38 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 1) Safari Story 2) Scout adventures

At 01:22 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>So has anyone gone to the trouble of compiling a basic Traveller
Starter
>kit, If so many TML inquiring minds
>would probably like to see a list of items...hint<winking
eye>hint<winking


Here's a quick checklist I use ... I don't equip a player with _all_
of them, of course:

 Weapons: rifle, pistol, dagger, garrote (perhaps hidden in bolo
tie?), throwing darts/stars, poison, blowgun, umbrella
sword/injector/gun, belt buckle knife, tranq needles, electrical
stunner, tear gas
 Pocketknife
 lockpicks, mechanical and electronic
 scramblers, bug detectors, etc.
 truth serum, suicide pills, knockout drops
 grappling hook
 ropes
 radio scanner
 NVG's - IR/LI/UV/magnification - OR PRIS/Macrobinoculars
 1st Aid kit
 inertial tracker
 map box
 communicator
 personal/hand computer
 demolitions kit
 flashlight
 flare/smoke grenades
 flaregun
 tripwire
 wire cutters
 wire saw
 compass
 pocketknife
 "tricorder"
 toolkits (mechanical, electronic, etc.)
 comm dot
 utility vest
 grav belt
 armor
 backpack
 interrogation kit - lie detector, truth serum, etc.
 tent
 water purification kit
 lantern
 watch

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:26:17 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: GT

Cool.
cos 90 wrote:

> >I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
> >everyones thought are on GT.
>
> Put it this way -- I bought a copy shortly after it became available
> in this part of the universe. I loved it. One of the guys in my biweekly
> Champions game had played Traveller in the past, and was interested in
> seeing it. So a few weeks later I brought it with me to the game. The
> collective response: "So, when are we going to start a GURPS Traveller
> campaign?"
>
> (Starting this coming Saturday night, actually... with me running it.)
>
> -- g
>
>      Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
>         "There is no longer any normal to be"
>                                  -- Gary Numan

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #480
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 481



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: TravJeopardy! presented by TravUndernet
Re: Legal Records
Re: Space Dock mirror...
Re: Favorite Adventures
Re: Favorite Adventures 
Re: Legal Records
Re: SCRAM
Re: Legal Records
Re: Subs and Sensors
Re: Saving the Throne
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Fw: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 13:45:32 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000hbjjtbdz

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:40:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Travellers' Starter Kit

cos 90 wrote:
<<snip>>
> 
> >
> >I'd like to see the list of the Travellers' Starter Kit.
> 
> So would I! So would my players, a couple of whom are new to the
> Traveller universe...
> 
One place to start would be the movie "Dr. Strangelove" (1964, dir.: 
Stanley Kubrick).  Slim Pickens, as a B-52 pilot, is walking his aircrew
through an inventory of their survival kits.  Replace references to
things Russian with their Zhodani equivalents, and you have a pretty
good start.  However, it is _mandatory_ that you conclude the inventory
with the following sentence:

"Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that
stuff!"

<<snip sig>>
- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:55:36 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: TravJeopardy! presented by TravUndernet

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
: We're on Undernet, #Traveller, 8pm.  Email me privately for
directions.  An
: FAQ is coming soon to the website. http://home.att.net/~websuz/ .

#traveller runs on Central time, in case you were wondering.

Also, we aren't sure how well this is going to work, but we're going to
have fun trying!  Stop in and lurk if nothing else.



Acting V.Adm. C. Michael,
Sword Worlds Navy, Gram Fleet:
Leader of the Border Rebellion
~Herald of the CT Resurgence~
[ http://www.downport.com/ct ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:01:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
> some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
> population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
> (services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
> Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
> to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
> years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
> that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
> I still love this person?

Is there such a thing as "Imperial Marriage?" I mean, does Lunion care if
you've been married on Regina or not? As I understand it, Imperial laws -
in my mind, the only laws enforceable cross-planet - do not cover such
mundane issues as marriage.

How about if you get married on World A, where monogamy is the law, then
get married again on Planet B, where polygamy is legal? Can your wife on
Planet A have you prosecuted? Does it matter whether you are a "citizen"
of planet A or Planet B? What if you're neither?

This brings up another point -- do citizens of the Imperium also have to
hold planetary citizenship, or can they declare themselves "worldless" and
just be Imperial Citizens?

Thoughts?

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:27:05 -0600
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Space Dock mirror...

>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:39:22 -0500
>From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
>Subject: Re: Space Dock mirror...
>
>What is Space Dock?


Check out the link below. It's a program for Windows 9x which allows
you to build space ships for GURPS Traveller.

Andrew

_______________________________________________
Space Dock...
...design your OWN ships for GURPS Traveller
http://www.cyberhighway.net/~abatish/sdock.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 99 23:26:00 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures

On 04/19/99 at 06:00 AM,  Diespamer@aol.com said:

>2. The "Sky Raiders" Trilogy: FASA, great stuff in the Far Frontiers
>sector!

And what are the names of the three parts of the "Sky Raiders" trilogy?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:39:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures 

> On 04/19/99 at 06:00 AM,  Diespamer@aol.com said:
> 
> >2. The "Sky Raiders" Trilogy: FASA, great stuff in the Far Frontiers
> >sector!
> 
> And what are the names of the three parts of the "Sky Raiders" trilogy?

'Legends of the Sky Raiders', 'Trail of the Sky Raiders', 'Fate of the Sky Raiders'.

I'd say more, but I don't wanna spoil it.  I *WILL* say that I'm rather surprised that these guys weren't from Reavers' Deep.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:42:10 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

"Brannon W. Boren" wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>
> > This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
> > some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
> > population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
> > (services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
> > Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
> > to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
> > years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
> > that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
> > I still love this person?
>

First of all, its all on your passport.  You just fork over some cash and they
stamp it all legal like.  Anybody that can afford interstellar travel shouldn't
have to worry about that stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:46:27 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Perceval Lowry wrote:

> IIRC
> SCRAM=Safety Control Reactor Axe-Man
>
> A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by
> introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from
> early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte
> reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The
> safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event
> of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
>
> I suppose you could SCRAM an out of control fusion reactor, by
> introducing a bunch of nonfusionable material quickly.  Flooding a
> chamber with a noble gas would be an idea, but if things have gone too
> far, the gas will just fuse and everything will blow something fierce.
>  Stopping the introduction of H2 would probably work even better- no
> fuel, no reaction, no explosion.  Keep the containment up and you're
> set.

From what I understand, Hydrogen fusion requires a pretty significant
pressure and temperature.  Probably some sort of magnetic containment.
Without the pressure, the atoms wouldn't fuse.  Thus, drop the containment
field and the reactor shuts down plus some stray radiation.  Things will
still be hot, but not explosive.

Personally, I prefer Helium-3 fusion, its much cleaner.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:54:22 -0700
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@PerkWorks.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

>This brings up another point -- do citizens of the Imperium also have to
>hold planetary citizenship, or can they declare themselves "worldless" and
>just be Imperial Citizens?


Does the Imperium require documentation similar to a passport?
I didn't run my game that way.  Such documentation would pretty
much require an Imperial presence on every planet in the Imperium.
While I do see them issuing "Starship Papers", documentation
for individuals would be very hard to justify, given that Imperial
census data seems to be limited to counts and the Imperium
apparently doesn't require planetary government to register every
unique individual.

I did rule that the Imperium requires starship captains to maintain
an accurate cargo list... including DNA samples (or alien equiv.)
for sentient cargo.  These manifests must be transmitted to
Imperial authorities upon request.  Captains found to be
carrying undocumented sentients risk ship seizure. Assuming
no fraud, such documents are far more useful in tracking
individuals than typical "passports".

I'd argue that Planet X would almost always consider all non-Planet X
citizens to be generic "Imperial Citizens", as verification of any other
form of citizenship would be impossible and irrelevent.  The Imperium
may require individuals travelling from system-to-system to declare a
birthworld, but current citizenship may likewise be impossible to prove,
as many low population or low tech world wouldn't have the ability to
document such things.

Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:49:30 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Subs and Sensors

John Buston typed:
>Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>Ever seen a 7500 ton whale? Or one that does 40 knots? Or
>>one that, on checking, seems to have an associated neutrino source.
>
>IIRC whales, dolphins, sharks, et al have some sort of active
adaptive
>streamlining that
>lets them move through water at much greater speeds than would
otherwise be the
>case (New Scientist 1997?). I don't think 40 knots is a problem.
>
>Hey that's an excellent idea to put a small power plant on whales &
dolphins to
>give a false neutrino reading - It's probably required for the
breeding program
>anyway :^)
>
>A fully stealthed sub would optimally have a signature similar to
aquatic life.
>After all a R/L stealth fighter/bomber is basically a very large moth
:)
>
yeah....

....a moth that does Mach 2 (ish...)

:P

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:25:31 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Saving the Throne

At 03:37 PM 4/20/1999 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>> 
>> Jeff Zeitlin writes:
>> 
>> >Canonically, the Imperium doesn't allow polities to join, only worlds.
>> 
>> Are you sure about that? I've always assumed that the Imperium didn't
>> like member multi-world polities (though I don't actually think that
>> is spelled out anywhere), but that it accepts it in some cases. An
>> example is Vilis and its colony world Garda-Vilis. Come to that, all
>> the megacorporations are, in a way, multi-world polities (all of them
>> control a number of worlds outright). And there's a number of other
>> colony worlds  shown in various UWP listings.
>
>Owned worlds are one thing, The Federation of Planets are another. The
>Imperium doesn't want any rivals.
>
>As far as megacorps go, yes they are multi-world; but the Imperium, in
>many ways _is_ the megas, and vice versa. The heads of the megas are
>likely very highly placed nobles. A very intertwined system so that
>what's good for Marikhadun is good for the Imperium, and vice versa...
>

J. Andrew Keith wrote the Pilot's Guide to Caledon Subsector (published in
Traveller Chronicle 5-7) in which the worlds 2214, 2313, and 2315 (marked
Ok [Kolan Hegemony] in the Atlas of the Imperium) is a polity that was
absorbed into the Imperium and is still recognized by the Imperium.  "The
Hegemony is considered a part of the Imperium, but is administratively
independent from the authority of the neighboring Nightrim subsector, which
governs other Imperial territory in this area."  This arrangement has been
in place since the latter stages of the Aslan Border Wars.  At that time
three other worlds were part of the Hegemony.  One has since left the
Hegemony and the Imperium.  The other two are no longer administered from
the Hegemony and are fully Imperial worlds.

I don't remember seeing anything about the Imperium not admitting polities.
 I know they set up the Vegan Autonomous Region and the League of Antares
(just spinward and rimward of Antares itself), but I also seem to recall
that the Easter Concorde was admitted to the Imperium.

I am not saying that is not true, but I don't remember seeing it...of
course I never really thought about it before either.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:02:59 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

At 01:28 PM 4/20/1999 -0500, Rob wrote:
urce.
>
>I'm still not convinced of the need for trade beyond a sector.
>High value, low volume goods can be produced by industrial
>worlds inside the sector -- perhaps only a subsector away.
>
The place I see long distance trade being used would be in luxury items.
Traveller even provides us examples such as the Imperial Reaumur and
Infrequent Refuge (AHL class) that brings Tokaj Eszencia wine from Terra to
Capital, and the Aslan corporation (I can't remember the name off hand)
that started out importing dust spice from Romar (in Glisten subsector) to
Kusyu.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
 Saying, I would know.
 Do not know.
 So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:06:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

In mail you write:

> Sure you can freeze it solid, but you still have to have some sort of
> container to hold it
>
> 1  so it doesnt thaw out from solar radiation

A simple reflective coating will handle that. Basicly a thin layer of
aluminized mylar (like one of those pocket sized "rescue blankets").

> 2  so you can contain and control the flow of the thawed H2

Have the chunk of hydrogen ice be hollow, you thaw it from the inside.
Towards the very end, the plastic film will be holding a mixture of
liquid, solid and gaseous hydrogen.

> 4  as it thaws, its gonna expand, so you'll need some extra volume to
> handle it

That's why the hollow center with a cheap pipe leading to it. 

> 5  this should be only available at class A ports.  Freezing H2 is not
> something easily done

Not a lot harder than liquefying it in the first place.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:10:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

In mail you write:

> Juliean Galak wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
>> solid?  If so, could you just freeze a chunk of it, carry it with you until
>> jump, thaw it as its being used and *presto* no tank left.
>
> Because it is exposed to a vacuum or zero pressure.  At that point it would
> snap from solid to gas instantly.

It will sublime. But *slowly*. Otherwise comets couldn't exist. Nor
could the water ice in those craters at the lunar poles.

> Extending this further (and somebody will have to check the density for me)
> Methane (CH4) is 2/9ths hydrogen by mass. (14 parts carbon 4 parts hydrogen).
> Methane liquifies at -161K at 1 ATM (I think) so cryogenics would still be
> required.  The question then becomes what's the density of liquid methane?

12 parts carbon. Carbon is general atomic weight 12. 14 is an uncommon
isotope. 

> If cracking methane for hydrogen proves volumetrically economic, then I could
> easily see the military using it for double jumps and forking over the extra
> credits for high test fuel.  If you're into HEPlaR tech, I'd imagine that the
> higher density carbon or oxygen atoms would give you a better thrust ratio,
> although you may have to knock all the diamonds off your exhaust manifold
> repeatedly.

Actually, with a reaction drive you want your exhaust to be as *light*
as possible. That's because for a given temperature, a heavier molecule
or atom moves more slowly (temp is related to kinetic energy).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:14:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
>> Juliean Galak wrote:
>>
>> > I don't know if this is physically possible, but can hydrogen be frozen
>> > solid?
>
> I thought hydrogen would only "freeze" at 0K - which is unreachable. It is
> too small (1 proton, 1 neutron) to collapse into a solid, and at temps of
> 1-4K it is some sort of super fluid (with named states like hydrogen III,
> or something).

No, you are thinking of Helium. Hydrogen will freeze at -259.2 C.

Helium doesn't form molecules, so you are dealing with individual
atoms. And the "zero-point energy" of helium at 0 K is still enough to
keep it liquid. You actually have to apply *pressure* to get helium to
freeze. 

Hydrogen *does* have its own special problems. There are *two* type of
hydrogen molecule. Ortho and para. In one, the spins of the atoms point
the same direction. In the other they point in opposite directions. 

There's a noticeable energy difference between the two types. Switching
in one direction releases energy, switching in the other requires
energy. So eventually, all of the hydrogen will wind up in the lower
energy form. But the energy released by the transitions is enough to
*boil* LH2. So to be able to store LH2 without most of it boiling away,
you have to convert it all to the low energy state. Luckily, catalysts
have been found that will trigger the change. So you just run the LH2
across the catalyst and collect the gas that gets given off. The gas
gets re-liquefied, the liquid that's been thru the catalyst goes into
storage. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:13:54 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

>The one item *no* player's kit should be without is:
>
>(drumroll and crash of cymbals)
>
>Duct Tape!

 Ah yes. The Handyman's Secret Weapon, with which amazing things can be done. 
Go watch the "Red Green Show" if you don't beleive me...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:26:56 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >At 10:14 PM 4/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >>Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
> [snip]
> >But there you get into a question...
>
> Oh this old discussion again.  Can't we get this in the FAQ under "Done to
> Death"?!?

Why? I happen to like the annual K"Kree Barbeque thread.

> I mean, how many times do we have to hear people going back and
> forth about the Kosherness of K'kree, only to hear it all again when the
> "kosher for passover" label is brought up...

How long do you plan to be here?

It is like the argument do the Vilanni eat there dead  or Vargr riding with
the heads out the window of their air rafts...

There here for our amusment.

> Sometimes I try to tell people what this list is about.  I rarely succeed.

Why, we know it's about traveller and that is what we mostly discuss.

OBtrav: Who is in the Sector Gravball Finals?

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:28:55 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

David P. Summers wrote:

> Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:49:15 -0700, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
> >> >Are you going to be avalible for the Friday Night Vilani Feast at Denny's?
>
> >>  I intend to be there, being a San Leandro resident...
>
> >Your already on the list.
>
> Well, the proposal is getting me sick enough of work that I'm
> thinking, why the heck not leave early that friday....
>
> So who's organizing this thing?

Doug, was kind enuff to step in and do that. Me I'm still a emotional
wreak.

- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:41:31 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Celtic Matriarchy

- -----Original Message-----
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com <jmaclean@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: Celtic Matriarchy


>On 04/20/99 20:25:23 you wrote:
>>The original poster was quite correct - in many (but not all) cases,
Celtic
>>Britons were both matrilineal and matriarchal societies. It is important
to
>>remember that there was no Celtic nation and that many of the tribes were
>>wildly different from others. For example, the Brigantes (from whom our
>>modern word 'brigand' and the name Britain itself are derived) were very
>>much matrilineal and matriarchal. In this case, the queen ruled on behalf
>of
>>the goddess, but her husband was responsible for managing the people of
the
>>tribe and the use of force. Similar to the situation in early Ur and other
>>Mesopotamian city states (read the Epic of Gilgamesh for the earliest
>>documented political struggle against exactly this arrangement).
>
> Berkeley has the only undergraduate program in Celtic Studies in the
>United States.  When I was a student there I took a class in the department
>which covered basic Celtic myths, beliefs, government systems, etc.  It was
>certainly made clear that women enjoyed a great deal of equality, but it
was
>never mentioned or even hinted that Celts were ever matriarchal.  Given
>where I was taking the class I don't think this was from any lack of desire
>to be PC.  Do you have some reputable sources for this?
> The reference to "the goddess" I also find suspect.  It is a term I've
>only heard from "New Age" sources and it was again not something ever
>brought up in my course.  I also am wondering in what way the queen might
be
>said to rule if her husband had responsibility for management and warfare.
>What's left?
>


While my history classes (sorry, ASU isn't quite on the ball yet with
"Cletic studies") are probably not the equal of Berkely, I did take an awful
lot of them, and by the way am an ardent Celtophile, though mainly a fan of
the Gaelic branch.  I know that Ireland (and Scotland) at least, were in no
significant way matriachal as opposed to matrilineal.  Also, the Gauls
(most, though certainly not all of the rest of the Celts) were apparently
patriarchal, at least according to Roman sources (Livy, Arrian, Caeser,
etc.).  Finally, having female priestesses was fairly common in ancient
societies- even the decidedly patriarchial Romans had the Vestal Virgins.
And I agree, "the Goddess" doesn't come up much in any of the epics I've
read- though, like most pantheons, Birgitte and other female deities do pop
up quite a bit.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:24:47 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

>>The one item *no* player's kit should be without is:
>>Duct Tape!
>
> Ah yes. The Handyman's Secret Weapon, with which amazing things can be
done.
>Go watch the "Red Green Show" if you don't beleive me...

Or "The A-Team"  where it is implied you can build a small aircraft out of
it.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:36:57 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

Do not forget the Frisbee
Cr 1 0.15 kg TL 6 (TL 7 ?)

a great cheap hobby and very usefull if you want to do surveillance on
someone in a public park, you just play Frisbee around them.  If you are
desperate it can make a (very low dammage) weapon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:44:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher?

Since K'Kree are sentient  they are not "animals". Therefore it seems
possible that Jewish prohibitions against cruelty to animals would not
apply.  If this approach is taken then it will be acceptable to treat
your K'Kree cruely & kill them however you want. This should reduce
costs required to raise and/or hunt & slaughter them.

I am not sure if the K'Kree foot qualifies as a cloven hoof though.  If
you look at the diagrams of the foot (in AM2 inside front cover lower
right hand corner) you will see a solid one piece hoof with 4 other
digits (toes or fingers) surrounding it.  Does this qualify as a cloven
hoof under Talmudic law?

I am playing a Jewish charecter in the Star Trek NG RPG by LUG (a good
game) and I have decided that (in his mind at least) all replicated food
is Kosher since it is replicated and not "real" to begin with.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #481
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 482



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Spam - (Non-delivery to...)
architecture (was Interstellar Trade)
Re: Failed Societies
Legal Records
basic Traveller Starter kit
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: Legal Records
Re: failed societies...
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: Skyron
Re: Legal Records
"Refined" and "Unrefined" Hydrogen
Re: SCRAM 
Re: Skyron 
Re: basic Traveller Starter kit
re: Subs and Sensors
Re: GT
re: failed societies
Re: Legal Records
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 21 Apr 99 17:57:06 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000qykawukg

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:56:12 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Spam - (Non-delivery to...)

This is annoying.

What can we do to stop these messages?

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  


> Your outbound message
> 
> X-Reference-No:-0000qykawukg
> 
> addressed to:
> 
>         gwyatt@enternet.com.au
> 
> could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable
> 
> This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:16:55 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: architecture (was Interstellar Trade)

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> It's also interesting to note that many of SF's early buildings were
> actually ships that were de-masted, hauled up on shore, overturned and had
> a door cut into them.  As we continue building, we keep finding these "Gold
> Mansions" at various points of the city.
> 
> ObTrav: All sorts of ideas.. the trading factor on a frontier world who
> operates out of a gutting Type A at the Starport's edge...

Actually, the early European concept of a house, or at least its roof,
is based on an overturned boat:  sloped roof, roof rafters.  

Moebius did a beautiful comic in which a huge, ancient, crashed
spaceship was the center of a city.

Finally, see Larry Niven, A Gift From Earth, for use of a colony ship as
the first structure on the colony.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:30:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Failed Societies

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

> Hm. But what about life on other planets?  Would the rabbis interpret
> "earth" to mean planet, and thus each planet would have its list of kosher
> foods? Would only earthlife be kosher? Or would all non-terrestrial animals
> not be covered (and therefore allowed)?

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with Les Howie some years ago, when
we both noted that our Traveller universes had a Catholic Church and a
Jewish religion.

My understanding of the Jewish perspective on this problem is as
follows:  What's most important is the life of the people.  If something
has to be done so that people can live, even if that thing is contrary
to Jewish laws, then it must be done and it is not considered a crime or
violation of law.  So if people are off the earth, then they have to
eat, and they have to eat what's available.  So what's available is not
considered unclean and may be eaten.  

Is there a Talmudic scholar in the TML who can help us out?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:39:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Legal Records

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> Subject: Legal Records
> 
> This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
> some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
> population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
> (services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
> Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
> to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
> years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
> that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
> I still love this person?
> 
> The best thing I can come up with is some sort of WORM card that carries
> images of all the important documents in your life.
> 

Legal documents won't be paper any more after some tech level, probably
TL 9 or 10.  They'll be in electronic form, with encryption to verify
that it is what it seems to be.  The encryption will be decodable by
governments who share the code with each other.  Sure, there will be
problems with forgery, but there are always problems with forgery.  So,
basically, you'll have a card with data units for each important
document.  You may well have more than one copy -- one at home, one in a
safe deposit box, one with you when you travel, one aboard your ship. 
Why not?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:01:12 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: basic Traveller Starter kit

The basic Traveller starter kit that I give PCs who have just mustered
out of Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts, or Merchants looks basically like
this:

Clothes (these are minimums; adjust up for high social status, high
rank):  
One set of dress uniform; one set of fatigue uniform
One set of formal civilian clothes; one set of casual clothes

Paperwork (which may not be in paper format at all, but rather
electronic):
service identification
Imperial identification/Imperial passport
passport of homeworld
vehicle operators' license as appropriate
other licenses as appropriate
money card(s) (per JTAS article)

Things (again, adjust upward for high social, rank):
basic toilet articles:  toothbrush or equivalent, grooming utensils,
etc.
palmtop data unit for addresses, calendar, etc.
wallet
pen
pocketknife
pictures of family (probably in electronic format)
luggage as appropriate (at least one medium-sized duffel bag issued by
branch of service)

A player can always suggest other things that his or her character would
have upon mustering out.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:06:25 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

>>"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>>>Still, I'm loathe to start siccing the U.S Post Office onto him yet.
<snip>
>In both cases, however, it's better for them, and for us, for them
>to take their time and get the jobs done right.  Right?

I fully agree, I'd much rather have it done right, than on time.

However, when people don't respond to any of multiple emails, and there's no
evidence they're even alive, let alone working on the project, one get's a
little worried.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:29:57 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> Subject: Re: Legal Records

> Is there such a thing as "Imperial Marriage?" I mean, does Lunion care if
> you've been married on Regina or not? As I understand it, Imperial laws -
> in my mind, the only laws enforceable cross-planet - do not cover such
> mundane issues as marriage.
> 
> How about if you get married on World A, where monogamy is the law, then
> get married again on Planet B, where polygamy is legal? Can your wife on
> Planet A have you prosecuted? Does it matter whether you are a "citizen"
> of planet A or Planet B? What if you're neither?

You've raised the question of conflict of laws.  There's no easy answer
to this question -- in fact, in law school I took a semester-long class
on this subject (well, in American jurisprudence, not Imperial, but I
would expect Imperial jurisprudence to be much more complex)  -- because
it depends on the specific laws of Worlds A and B.  E.g., does A
recognize any marriages of B?  

Important points to remember in this analysis are: (1) an Imperial
member world's laws only apply on the world; (2) subject to certain
exceptions, anyone on a world must obey its laws; and (3) there is no
"full faith and credit" between Imperial member worlds.  (Caveat:  This
is my analysis, applicable to my Traveller universe, and not addressed
anywhere in canon so far as I know.)  

> This brings up another point -- do citizens of the Imperium also have to
> hold planetary citizenship, or can they declare themselves "worldless" and
> just be Imperial Citizens?

Canon doesn't address this either, so far as I know.  In my Traveller
universe, anyone who is a citizen of a member world is also a citizen of
the Imperium.  Each member world determines citizenship according to its
own laws.  Some worlds will not allow renunciation of citizenship, but
most will.  On the other hand, most people have to live somewhere and
that place may make them citizens.  

Being a worldless citizen of the Imperium is of course a tax dodge. 
Because the Imperium only taxes member states and not sophonts, one can
seek to escape taxation by not being a citizen of any member state.  Of
course, non-citizen residents are subject to taxation where they live,
and may well pay a higher rate than citizens.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:20:01 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: failed societies...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999 9:23
Subject: re: failed societies



>>The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
>>rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by now.
>>- Joseph
>
>True, but remember that not all of these functions are being performed to
>professional standards, so using professional rates of pay is an
>inappropriate comparison.
>
>

No, but if the "Domestic Engineer" are not doing these jobs themselves, they
now have to pay professional rates to get comparable results, that was the
point of the survey.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:21:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> IIRC
> SCRAM=Safety Control Reactor Axe-Man
>
> A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
> introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
> early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
> reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
> safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
> of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
>
> I suppose you could SCRAM an out of control fusion reactor, by 
> introducing a bunch of nonfusionable material quickly.  Flooding a 
> chamber with a noble gas would be an idea, but if things have gone too 
> far, the gas will just fuse and everything will blow something fierce. 
>  Stopping the introduction of H2 would probably work even better- no 
> fuel, no reaction, no explosion.  Keep the containment up and you're 
> set.

Actually, I know of no *practical* fusion technique that *needs* a
SCRAM capability. Other than gravitational confinement (ie a star :-),
you are having to use a lot of tricks to *keep* the reaction going. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:24:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

>> >
>> >        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
>> 
>> >happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
>> >*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc,
>> etc.
>> >I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard
>> this
>> >term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!
>> 
>> SCRAM: An emergency shutdown of a nuclear reactor, done by driving
>> control rods to the bottom of the core using springs. A term left over
>> from the 1940's when primitive lab reactors had a single control rod
>> suspended by a rope. An emergyency shutdown would be done by cutting the
>> rope and letting the rod drop by gravity. The safety man was called the
>> Safety Control Rod Ax Man - Hence SCRAM.
>> 
>> Courtesy of Michael Dimercurio's book "Attack of the Seawolf"
>> 
>> I *THINK* you could simply shut down a fusion reactor - they're not
>> supposed to runaway like a fission reactor. So cutting the power should
>> kill the reactor.
>
> Just cut the fuel feed.  Can't run a fusion reactor without fuel.  And LHyd 
> ain't kept inside the reactor like fissionables are.  Like I said earlier, a 
> simple solenoid snapping a valve shut would do the trick...

Or just cut the containment field. The actual *mass* of plasma involved
is low enough that the reactor vessel won't do more than get warm. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:27:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Skyron

In mail you write:

>>Not wanting to be difficult, but...
>>According to canon, the world Fenris (Solomani Rim 1830) is the star
>>Procyon. And according to the maps, the Fenris system has no gas giants.
>>If they were to detect a gas giant around Procyon in the near future,
>>what would we do?  :)
>
> If this were to happen how about ruling that any gas giant "detected" in
> a system that doesn't have a gas giant in Traveller is a gas giant that
> cannot be used to fuel a ship.  Could anyone produce a pseudo-scientific
> reason for a "gas giant" to be void of harvestable hydrogen?

Well, that one in the Upsilon system orbiting at .06 AU may have *lots*
of hydrogen. It'll also have weather that'll make a tornado look like a
dead calm. 

Also, at .06 AU, I doubt that any standard Traveller ship design could
handle the temperature.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:29:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Legal Records

In mail you write:

> This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
> some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
> population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
> (services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
> Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
> to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
> years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
> that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
> I still love this person?
>
> The best thing I can come up with is some sort of WORM card that carries
> images of all the important documents in your life.
>
> Any other ideas?

WORMs can be forged trivially. You just copy the original to a new one,
changing data as needed. :-)

But for the particular situation you describe, there's ample precedent
from the age of sail. It wasn't unheard of for a captain on a regular
run to have a wife in each port!

So basicly, being married off-planet doesn't matter. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:34:33 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: "Refined" and "Unrefined" Hydrogen

>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:14:38 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
>
>Hydrogen *does* have its own special problems. There are *two* type of
>hydrogen molecule. Ortho and para. In one, the spins of the atoms point
>the same direction. In the other they point in opposite directions. 
>
>There's a noticeable energy difference between the two types. Switching
>in one direction releases energy, switching in the other requires
>energy. So eventually, all of the hydrogen will wind up in the lower
>energy form. But the energy released by the transitions is enough to
>*boil* LH2. So to be able to store LH2 without most of it boiling away,
>you have to convert it all to the low energy state. Luckily, catalysts
>have been found that will trigger the change. So you just run the LH2
>across the catalyst and collect the gas that gets given off. The gas
>gets re-liquefied, the liquid that's been thru the catalyst goes into
>storage. 

Leonard, you have just solved one of the Great Mysteries of Traveller for
me. I have never been able to figure out what the difference between
refined and unrefined fuel could be. Any idiot can set up an electrolysis
rig to process hydrogen from water or methane, and (since the density of
stored fuel is always the same) only LH2 is ever stored in the tanks. This
tidbit gives me reason to think that the catalyst process is the difference.

All IMTU, of course -- I don't think that canon would support it (but I'll
look).

Can you point me to a reference for the catalyst process, and/or any other
differences in the physical properties of the two types?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:42:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> >> SCRAM: An emergency shutdown of a nuclear reactor, done by driving
> >> control rods to the bottom of the core using springs. A term left over
> >> from the 1940's when primitive lab reactors had a single control rod
> >> suspended by a rope. An emergyency shutdown would be done by cutting the
> >> rope and letting the rod drop by gravity. The safety man was called the
> >> Safety Control Rod Ax Man - Hence SCRAM.
> >> 
> >> Courtesy of Michael Dimercurio's book "Attack of the Seawolf"
> >> 
> >> I *THINK* you could simply shut down a fusion reactor - they're not
> >> supposed to runaway like a fission reactor. So cutting the power should
> >> kill the reactor.
> >
> > Just cut the fuel feed.  Can't run a fusion reactor without fuel.  And LHyd 
> > ain't kept inside the reactor like fissionables are.  Like I said earlier, a 
> > simple solenoid snapping a valve shut would do the trick...
> 
> Or just cut the containment field. The actual *mass* of plasma involved
> is low enough that the reactor vessel won't do more than get warm. 

Not a good idea, I think.  Shipboard reactors have a *big* containment vessel, 
and the reaction itself is on the order of tens of *MILLIONS* of degrees.  It 
takes a lotta fuel to crank out that 250 *MEGAWATTS* of power you need just to 
move around a bit.  IN fact, IMTU, part of the yearly maintanance routine is 
relining the reactor so it can withstand another year of operation without 
burning through.  <CATN guys, you paying attention to this????>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:44:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Skyron 

> In mail you write:
> 
> >>Not wanting to be difficult, but...
> >>According to canon, the world Fenris (Solomani Rim 1830) is the star
> >>Procyon. And according to the maps, the Fenris system has no gas giants.
> >>If they were to detect a gas giant around Procyon in the near future,
> >>what would we do?  :)
> >
> > If this were to happen how about ruling that any gas giant "detected" in
> > a system that doesn't have a gas giant in Traveller is a gas giant that
> > cannot be used to fuel a ship.  Could anyone produce a pseudo-scientific
> > reason for a "gas giant" to be void of harvestable hydrogen?
> 
> Well, that one in the Upsilon system orbiting at .06 AU may have *lots*
> of hydrogen. It'll also have weather that'll make a tornado look like a
> dead calm. 
> 
> Also, at .06 AU, I doubt that any standard Traveller ship design could
> handle the temperature.

I'd rule that the GG was way too hot to safely scoopmine.  Or, since this *IS* a game (and some of us tend to forget that sometimes), just ignore reality in favor of massaged canon.  <grin>

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:56:25 -0500
From: "Kevin Walsh" <meow@advancenet.net>
Subject: Re: basic Traveller Starter kit

I treat starter kits a bit different, by taking a page from Space Opera
which actually gives lists of material benefits for different careers.
These are extrapolated from Book 1 Page 42

Heres a list for the Marines[Star Force Armsmen]
Backpack and or dufflebag/footlocker
Personal Medikit
Shelter Tent and Sleeping Bag
Handheld data unit[PDA]
One set each of winter, summer, and dress uniforms
2 sets of casual clothes
basic communicator
weapons cleaning kit
ID set w/appropriate licenses for profession[s]

Medics would also keep their larger medical kits
and mechanics would keep a small tool kit.




Kevin Walsh, AKA Shadowcat
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans web pages
"There is a fine line between Sanity and Insanity
I Dance that line"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:19:53 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Subs and Sensors

Matthew Bond wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A fully stealthed sub would optimally have a signature similar to
aquatic life.
>After all a R/L stealth fighter/bomber is basically a very large moth
:)
>
yeah....

...a moth that does Mach 2 (ish...)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, no. Our stealth f/b designs are quite subsonic. Still a good bit
faster than a moth, though.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:38:23 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: GT

Dan Eveland wrote:

>General GURPS opinion:
>The only thing I dislike, rather then just don't quite grasp, are the
>massive number of skills and the variations on how defaults work with the
>introduction of Compendium I. Some are IQ-4, some -5, some at another
>skill -3, some at -4 or something else and perhaps a combination of several.
>I would have liked to have seen the defaults streamlined and the skill list
>reduced. These are personal feeling not shared with many others, I suspect.

You suspect correctly. :)

As a long-term GURPS player, I find the skill system to be one of the game's
advantages. You won't find a better, more comprehensive skill system in any
role-playing environment. Defaults are based on related skills or on physical
stats. Distinctions are made on the basis of difficulty level. It may seem
intimidating to a new user, but once you get the hang of it, it all comes
together. As for the sheer number of skills -- that's also a selling point,
IMHO -- it allows for more character development and differentiation.

- -- g



     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:34:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: failed societies

Gregory Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rob Prior wrote:
>True, but remember that not all of these functions are being performed to
>professional standards, so using professional rates of pay is an
>inappropriate comparison.
>
>

No, but if the "Domestic Engineer" are not doing these jobs themselves, they
now have to pay professional rates to get comparable results, that was the
point of the survey.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not unless where you live has a strong and picky Maid Service union. If I
want to pay my next door neighbor's kid $5 an hour to do a mediocre (but
passable) job of housework a couple hours a day, and he's willing, I can
do it.

There are plenty of "Domestic Engineers" who are not producing
professional level results, which was the point of Rob's post.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:44:59 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

At 12:54 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>This brings up another point -- do citizens of the Imperium also have to
>>hold planetary citizenship, or can they declare themselves "worldless" and
>>just be Imperial Citizens?
>
>
>Does the Imperium require documentation similar to a passport?
>I didn't run my game that way.  Such documentation would pretty
>much require an Imperial presence on every planet in the Imperium.
>While I do see them issuing "Starship Papers", documentation
>for individuals would be very hard to justify, given that Imperial
>census data seems to be limited to counts and the Imperium
>apparently doesn't require planetary government to register every
>unique individual.

Well, according to both T4 and GT, every person in the Imperium is issued a
universal ID card.  My take on this is that while it's not strictly
necessary to have one if you are on one planet the whole time, it is
necessary for travel.  IMTU, things like licences and certifications
(Starship Master's licence, etc..) get added to this card electronically.
The card is forgeable, but it's _hard_!  

I suppose it would make sense for things like marriage records to be on the
ID as well.

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:47:14 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

>Do not forget the Frisbee
>Cr 1 0.15 kg TL 6 (TL 7 ?)
>
>a great cheap hobby and very usefull if you want to do surveillance on
>someone in a public park, you just play Frisbee around them.  If you are
>desperate it can make a (very low dammage) weapon.

Just be careful when using it in the presence of Vargr, lest they
try to run after it and catch it in their teeth...  :)

(Sorry, couldn't resist that one.)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #482
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 483



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: the Spam
Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: SCRAM
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 
An interesting beastie for your games...
re: An interesting beastie for your games
Re: SCRAM
Re: An interesting beastie for your games
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: GT
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne
Re: Legal Records
Re: Legal Records
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Ultimate Frisbee, Vargr style (was Travellers' Starter Kit) 
Re: Legal Records
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 
Re: SCRAM 
Re: Are K'Kree kosher

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 99 00:01:27 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000ismigyag

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:05:27 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

Peter Newman writes:
"a great cheap hobby and very usefull if you want to do 
surveillance on someone in a public park, you just play 
Frisbee around them.  If you are desperate it can make a 
(very low dammage) weapon."

	IIRC the quoit (sp?) was a weapon used in ancient
	India. It was very much like a small metal Frisbee
	with a sharp edge and no middle. An attacker could
	twirl it on his finger before releasing it at a
	target. Call it a war Frisbee.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:22:37 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: OT: RPG Paranoia

I hope that this doesn't turn into an RPG witch-hunt:

By Marc Fisher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 21, 1999; Page A01
"The shooters who turned Columbine High School into an 
unspeakable landscape of carnage yesterday were members 
of a small clique of outcasts who always wore black 
trench coats and spent their entire adolescence deep 
inside the morose subculture of Gothic fantasy, their 
fellow students said.
<snipped>
Black trench coats are a consistent theme in the Gothic 
subculture that has attracted many teenagers to the 
poetry, music and costumes of a scene that ranges from 
benign fantasy to violent reality.

Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, 
Gothic has become a fascination of many American high 
schoolers, some of whom simply dress and paint their 
fingernails black while others immerse themselves in a 
pseudo-medieval world of dark images."


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:15:06 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: the Spam

Oops, sorry, I failed to read it, assuming it was simply more of the
same.

8^(

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:47:48 -0500 Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>j a c wrote:
>> 
>> Was there a comment to be included with this?
>> 
>The comment, sir, was the rewording of it as a Trav parody of Spam.
>
>*sigh*
>
><<snip>>
>
>
>-- 
>------
>|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>|JOLT|
>|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
>|    |
>------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:29:30 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!

On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:14:58 -0300 Michel Vaillancourt
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>
>        Hi, Jim....
>        Actually, he caught me in a *bad* mood when he did this and I 
>set my
>Linux box to the task of returning his message back to him around 
>1400
>times.  His mail server got the hint around 880, and deleted the 
>account.
>
>        --Michel


hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:27:55 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:42:10 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>move around a bit.  IN fact, IMTU, part of the yearly maintanance 
>routine is 
>relining the reactor so it can withstand another year of operation 
>without 
>burning through.  <CATN guys, you paying attention to this????>
>
>Keven


Hmmmm, somehow this sounds mighty familiar.  8^)

ObTrav:  How do each of you handle engineering emergencies IYTU?

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:26:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

On 04/21/99 00:02:59 you wrote:
>
>At 01:28 PM 4/20/1999 -0500, Rob wrote:
>urce.
>>
>>I'm still not convinced of the need for trade beyond a sector.
>>High value, low volume goods can be produced by industrial
>>worlds inside the sector -- perhaps only a subsector away.
>>
>The place I see long distance trade being used would be in luxury items.
>Traveller even provides us examples such as the Imperial Reaumur and
>Infrequent Refuge (AHL class) that brings Tokaj Eszencia wine from Terra to
>Capital, and the Aslan corporation (I can't remember the name off hand)
>that started out importing dust spice from Romar (in Glisten subsector) to
>Kusyu.

	Yep, people like variety.  This is one of the reasons for trade listed 
in Far Trader that hasn't really come up.  In some theoretical sense it is 
actually a subset of economies of scale, but I won't bore you with that.
	As an example of how an industrial economy might be _capable_ of being 
totally self-sufficient yet still be better off not being so, look at the US 
automobile market.  The US is clearly capable of meeting all of its domestic 
demand for autos, yet we still import them from all over the world.  We do 
this simply because people like the additional choices offered by foreign 
cars.  Variety also helps businesses because they may find that a foreign 
piece of equipment solves their particular problem better than a domestic 
one.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:36:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/21/99 7:26:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
ian@vax2.concordia.ca writes:

<< I hope that this doesn't turn into an RPG witch-hunt: >>

It'll not only turn into a RPG witch-hunt, but a gun witch-hunt, and an 
internet witch hunt, and a reinactors witch hunt. As I'm a wargamer, RPGer, 
use the internet, own guns (and I lock them up!), and am a Civil War 
reinactor; it means dark times ahead, because two sets of wealthy parents 
decided they would rather spend time at the country club instead of 
supervising their children (admittedly a gross stereotype, but considering 
the reports of many students with cell phones and one of the perpetrators 
driving a BMW, not unreasonable...). What'll happen is that all of the 
"odd-non white bread" students will be more ostracised, and suspected of 
being psychopaths. I suspect that everybody on this list were considered part 
of the "not-in" crowd in high school, yet we turned out OK....Of course we'll 
be blamed instead of the parents....

Rant mode off; sorry I had to get this off my chest. I'm a student teacher, 
and it really frustrates me how disposable parents treat their kids. They 
treat their pets better...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:13:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 

At 09:10 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Until the first nation on Earth bought some advanced technology that puts
everything we've got now in the Stone Age.  We're about TL8 (CT, not
GURPS), think what would happen if some TL15 toys started coming onto the
market.

Then we'd burn rubber joining up.  The isolationists would be shouted down
and we'd become happy proles, with our TL15 products.

Amazing how that works...

>There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society exporting
'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In Mirrorshades'.  Can't
remember what book it was in, though.

_Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk Anthology_, ed. Bruce Sterling
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:47:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: An interesting beastie for your games...

This little critter ought to spice up any nautical adventure.. especially
if you scale it up a little...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Learning Kingdom's Cool Fact of the Day for April 21, 1999
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

         What kind of shrimp can break glass with its claws?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


The predatory mantis shrimp catches its prey by stunning it with a
sudden chop from its claws.  The striking force is so great that some
kinds of mantis shrimp can't be kept in ordinary aquariums, because
they easily break the glass with their powerful claws.

The claws of the mantis shrimp are among the fastest-moving animal
parts known.  The force of impact can be almost as large as a bullet
fired from a gun.  Divers call mantis shrimp "thumb splitters," and
there are divers who have lost fingers or thumbs to the shrimp's
ferocious chop.

Mantis shrimp are voracious predators.  If they are kept in a
community tank with fish, all the fish will eventually be eaten by the
shrimp.

Underwater photographers can lose their lenses if they get too close:
http://home.mem.net/~zipper/mantis.htm
http://www.divernet.com/biolog/manti297.htm


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Cool Fact of the Day list membership: 101,324
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          To subscribe, visit http://www.tlk-lists.com/join/
        To unsubscribe, visit http://www.tlk-lists.com/change/
     To become a sponsor, visit http://www.tlk-lists.com/sponsor/
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            Copyright (c) 1999, The Learning Kingdom, Inc.
                    http://www.LearningKingdom.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"When you're raised by the Jesuits, you
end up obedient or impertinent."
   - Asst DA Jack McCoy, _Law And Order_

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:25:41 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: An interesting beastie for your games

Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The predatory mantis shrimp catches its prey by stunning it with a
sudden chop from its claws.  The striking force is so great that some
kinds of mantis shrimp can't be kept in ordinary aquariums, because
they easily break the glass with their powerful claws.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Saberhagen used these in one of his Berserker short stories. These
little Berserker sabotage machines (like robot hermit crabs) crash
landed on a planet near an oceanographic research station. The 
mantis shrimp got to play a part in the tale..."The Smashers"?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:36:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

If anyone is interested in seeing how one instance of a fusion plant
failure is played out in a Traveller game, you might want to check
the archives for the TML PBeM.  They're available at:

    http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/archive

The specific section is in the "1998/Part 2" file.  Scroll about 80%
of the way done the text until you get to the section entitled "Main
Engineering - 09:07".

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:44:33 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: An interesting beastie for your games

In a message dated 4/21/99 9:34:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU writes:

<< Saberhagen used these in one of his Berserker short stories. These
 little Berserker sabotage machines (like robot hermit crabs) crash
 landed on a planet near an oceanographic research station. The 
 mantis shrimp got to play a part in the tale..."The Smashers"?
  >>

read it; great little story...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:26:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

At 06:12 PM 4/20/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/20/99 2:15:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
><< It's also interesting to note that many of SF's early buildings were
> actually ships that were de-masted, hauled up on shore, overturned and had
> a door cut into them.  As we continue building, we keep finding these "Gold
> Mansions" at various points of the city. >>
>
>and they survived the '06 quake and fire?!...

They were buried by that point.  The gold rush was 1849-51 (when California
became a state.  SF was a major port city by '06.  We've filled in about
40% of the Bay over the years.  As the city grew, many of these ships were
broken up, or burned, or just got buried by landfill.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:20:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GT

At 06:42 PM 4/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
>everyones thought are on GT.

Gridlore Technologies is a giant of Imperial industry, a beacon shining..
oh.  You mean the *other* GT..

GURPS: Traveller is the best thing to come along in ages.  All of the
product I have seen to date are excellent, and SJG is committed to making
this the best collection of information for the Third Imperium setting ever
seen.

Buy it.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:46:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 07:18 PM 4/20/99 -0700, you wrote:

>So who's organizing this thing?

i am.

frightening thought, isn't it?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:53:40 -0500
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne

>>There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society exporting
>'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In Mirrorshades'.  Can't
>remember what book it was in, though.
>
>_Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk Anthology_, ed. Bruce Sterling

It was about a high tech society (namely us) that was exporting toys to a
low tech society (also us) through the marvels of time travel. Basically we
had ran out of petroleum and used time travel to pump it up before it was
gone thus making the Mozarts branch of the time-tree incapable of ever
having an industrial revolution - at least not one based on petroleum for
fuel.


/Anders Backman
Game developer and Lead Kibitzer at Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:57:55 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

At 12:42 AM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>"Brannon W. Boren" wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>>
>> > This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
>> > some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
>> > population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
>> > (services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
>> > Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were
transferred
>> > to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting
months to
>> > years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
>> > that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_
while
>> > I still love this person?
>>
>
>First of all, its all on your passport.  You just fork over some cash and they
>stamp it all legal like.  Anybody that can afford interstellar travel
shouldn't
>have to worry about that stuff.

Is it?  All your necessary legal records?  The drones we delt with wanted a
_copy_ of the original document for their files.  I went throught my
fileing cabinet last evening after I sent the post to see what documents I
had on record:  Birth certificate, high school diploma, college diploma,
selective service registration receipt, fifteen years of tax returns, copy
of my concealed carry permit, copies of my FFL and local FL, father's death
certificate, insurance for residence, insurance for car, life insurance,
shot records for my Welsh Terrier, AKC papers for the dog, etc.

"Yeah, so it's stamped.  Local regulations require a copy of the document
by the issuing authority before we can let George qualify as the ships
medic and you to take on passengers," says the clerk.



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:05:40 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

At 01:29 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
>> Subject: Re: Legal Records
>
>> Is there such a thing as "Imperial Marriage?" I mean, does Lunion care if
>> you've been married on Regina or not? As I understand it, Imperial laws -
>> in my mind, the only laws enforceable cross-planet - do not cover such
>> mundane issues as marriage.
>> 
>> How about if you get married on World A, where monogamy is the law, then
>> get married again on Planet B, where polygamy is legal? Can your wife on
>> Planet A have you prosecuted? Does it matter whether you are a "citizen"
>> of planet A or Planet B? What if you're neither?
>
>You've raised the question of conflict of laws.  There's no easy answer
>to this question -- in fact, in law school I took a semester-long class
>on this subject (well, in American jurisprudence, not Imperial, but I
>would expect Imperial jurisprudence to be much more complex)  -- because
>it depends on the specific laws of Worlds A and B.  E.g., does A
>recognize any marriages of B?  
>
>Important points to remember in this analysis are: (1) an Imperial
>member world's laws only apply on the world; (2) subject to certain
>exceptions, anyone on a world must obey its laws; and (3) there is no
>"full faith and credit" between Imperial member worlds.  (Caveat:  This
>is my analysis, applicable to my Traveller universe, and not addressed
>anywhere in canon so far as I know.)  

One of the requirements for entry into the Imperium, IMO, would be the
recognition of contracts made on other Imperial worlds.  While this is not
explicitly stated, it can be inferred that this is the case due to the
level of trade and other financial interests that not only span a few
worlds, but also the entire Imperium.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:12:12 EDT
From: SunTsi@aol.com
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

<< Anyway, the important thing for Jump drives is Volume.  If you can convert 
water
 to hydrogen 50% more efficiently and not have to worry about 
cryo-containment, so
 much the better >>
Yepp. I agree...

<<If you use the all at once jumpdrive theory, then you gotta crack out all 
you'll
need for the jump before initiating it.  If you use the slow burn over the 
course
of a week, then you can crack water as you go.>>

But dont forget: The cracking process takes many hours(interesting only for 
theory one). And if cracking on-board you wont gain any volume. You still 
have to store the hydrogen gained from the electrolysys, thus you would end 
up with at least the same
volume. But I see that if one does not need all H2 before initiating jump you 
could indeed use h2o. Which proves this theory wrong for my part.

If the H2 would be burnt up during the week in jump ,there is no reason for a 
ship 
to rely on LH2 for fuel.

They do, which implies they use it all up BEFORE jumping.

Andreas Reimer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:26:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Ultimate Frisbee, Vargr style (was Travellers' Starter Kit) 

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

> Just be careful when using it in the presence of Vargr, lest they
> try to run after it and catch it in their teeth...  :)

You've never watched Vargr Ultimate Frisbee on the holovid?  It's like
soccer, in that the players can't touch the frisbee with their hands. 
So you have all these big-necked Vargr leaping into the hair and
snapping the frisbee with a shake of the head.  

Some Vargr even have a saying about human frisbee:  "Humans can't
bite."  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:29:58 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

>
> "Yeah, so it's stamped.  Local regulations require a copy of the document
> by the issuing authority before we can let George qualify as the ships
> medic and you to take on passengers," says the clerk.

You know that Admin/Legal  skill....

If local regulations are so strict, the they will quickly ostracise the entire
space going population (which really isn't very many, but they are a powerful
minority).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:41:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 

> At 09:10 PM 4/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Until the first nation on Earth bought some advanced technology that puts
> everything we've got now in the Stone Age.  We're about TL8 (CT, not
> GURPS), think what would happen if some TL15 toys started coming onto the
> market.
> 
> Then we'd burn rubber joining up.  The isolationists would be shouted down
> and we'd become happy proles, with our TL15 products.
> 
> Amazing how that works...

Recreating current tech is hard enough, even though it doesn't require any new 
theories to make it happen.  TL15 is dependent on gravitics and other 
technologies we haven't a clue how to do yet.  By the tiem we learn how to 
make the stuff, we'll already be a generation behind and fading fast.
 
> >There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society exporting
> 'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In Mirrorshades'.  Can't
> remember what book it was in, though.
> 
> _Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk Anthology_, ed. Bruce Sterling

Yup.  Great book.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:43:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> If anyone is interested in seeing how one instance of a fusion plant
> failure is played out in a Traveller game, you might want to check
> the archives for the TML PBeM.  They're available at:
> 
>     http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/archive
> 
> The specific section is in the "1998/Part 2" file.  Scroll about 80%
> of the way done the text until you get to the section entitled "Main
> Engineering - 09:07".

I've seen it.  It was great.  Unfortunately, I wasn't using a mailing list provider for CATN when 'Wanderfall' lost main power 15 km above the surface of Grendel.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:58:54 +0200
From: "Renaud VIBIEN" <Renaud.Vibien@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree kosher

> >> The Book of Leviticus provides:
> >>
> >> 11:2   Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the
> >>         beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the
> >>         earth.
> >>
> >>  11:3   Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth
> >>         the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
>
> Hm. But what about life on other planets?  Would the rabbis interpret
> "earth" to mean planet ?


The quote is without his context.

Leviticus 11:2 to 11:8 is about land animal. ("beasts that are on the
earth")
Leviticus 11:9 to 11:12 is about water animal. ("beasts that are in water")
Leviticus 11:13 to 11.23 is about flying animal. ("beasts that are in air")

So, "earth" can't be interpreted like meaning "Terra/Sol".

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #483
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 484



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Legal Records
Re: Ultimate Frisbee, Vargr style (was Travellers' Starter Kit)
Re: Legal Records
Re: GT Battledress
Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au
Re: GT Battledress
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Legal Records
RE: Legal Records
Re: GT Battledress
ADMIN:  List Changes
Re: GT Battledress
Re: Re Vilani Font
Re: GT Battledress
Re: Legal Records
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Re Vilani Font
Re: Re Vilani Font
Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)
RE: OT: RPG Paranoia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:09:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Legal Records

On 04/21/99 13:05:40 Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>One of the requirements for entry into the Imperium, IMO, would be the
>recognition of contracts made on other Imperial worlds.  While this is not
>explicitly stated, it can be inferred that this is the case due to the
>level of trade and other financial interests that not only span a few
>worlds, but also the entire Imperium.

	In Far Trader we assumed that there must be some kind of rudimentary 
Imperial contract law to support interstellar trade and investment.  We made 
it the responsibility of the Ministry of Commerce and the Imperial Legate to 
resolve disputes, but we left things purposefully vague so as not to 
unnecessarily constrain GMs.  The way we imagined it, for relatively 
straight-forward and common things like freight contracts, the Imperial 
machinery would be fairly efficient, but for unusual contracts and/or things 
not directly pertaining to trade the Imperial authorities would have less 
experience and incentive to intervene.
	In the end, the Imperium is "ruled by men, not laws" so everything is 
up to the discretion of Imperial authorities as long as they can justify it 
to their superiors if need be.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:11:43 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Frisbee, Vargr style (was Travellers' Starter Kit)

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

>
>
> You've never watched Vargr Ultimate Frisbee on the holovid?  It's like
> soccer, in that the players can't touch the frisbee with their hands.
> So you have all these big-necked Vargr leaping into the hair and
> snapping the frisbee with a shake of the head.
>
> Some Vargr even have a saying about human frisbee:  "Humans can't
> bite."
>
> --Glenn

Whats that Lassie?!  Timmy fell down the well?

rofl



- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:19:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> One of the requirements for entry into the Imperium, IMO, would be the
> recognition of contracts made on other Imperial worlds.  While this is not
> explicitly stated, it can be inferred that this is the case due to the
> level of trade and other financial interests that not only span a few
> worlds, but also the entire Imperium.

But this isn't always possible. In the example I gave (a planet that
allows polygamy and another that does not), there are contracts that can
be made on world A that could not be made (and would not be valid) on
world B. Such a case would be a polygamous marriage contract, which would
be impossible to recognize on a world where such marriages were not
permitted.

I have to say that I believe that trade is the only thing the Imperium
really regulates. If World A wants to tell you your marriage is invalid,
that's their perogative.

In the real world, is a marriage conducted in Iraq valid under US law?
Would it be permisable for a person married in Iraq to get married to a
woman in the US without divorcing his previous Iraqi wife? (I chose Iraq
because it seems unlikely that the US has any kind of reciprocal contract
recognition agreement with them).

Anyone know much about such issues?

Brannon

- --
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:24:16 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

>> In GURPS Traveller, battledress is not given a maximum lifting capacity per
>> se, but is instead given a Strength rating (25 ST). Do the "Extra Effort
>> Lifting with High Strength" rules from pg. 12 of CI apply to this?
>
>No.  They never apply to vehicles.

Thank you, Anthony. Maybe you can answer a couple of other questions for me.

Does this mean that in a quick contest of ST (say to break a wrestling
hold), a fairly strong character can declare that he is spending a couple
of Fatigue and pretty much automatically break the grip of an NPC in
battledress? Since each point of Fatigue spent = 100% increase in ST
(unless there is a maximum amount that I am missing here) -- or is this for
lifting purposes only?

Also, the table on p.12 of CI is a little unclear to me. Is the "Extra
Effort Lift" in *addition* to the "Max Lift?"

If this is the case, then this means that a ST 15 football
tackle-equivalent can outlift a character in battledress, at least in the
short term. Is this correct?

If it is not the case, then why is the "Extra Effort Lift" for ST 15 less
than the "Max Lift" value?


Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 99 04:26:00 SST
From: rwm@tansoft.com
Subject: Non-delivery to gwyatt@enternet.com.au

Your outbound message

X-Reference-No:-0000phhbrxzn

addressed to:

        gwyatt@enternet.com.au

could not be delivered.  Reason: UA Unavailable

This report originated from: AU/TELEMEMO/AUSGOVTRANSPORT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
> 
> Thank you, Anthony. Maybe you can answer a couple of other questions for
> me. 
> 
> Does this mean that in a quick contest of ST (say to break a wrestling
> hold), a fairly strong character can declare that he is spending a couple
> of Fatigue and pretty much automatically break the grip of an NPC in
> battledress? Since each point of Fatigue spent = 100% increase in ST
> (unless there is a maximum amount that I am missing here) -- or is this for
> lifting purposes only?

As listed, its for lift only.  However, extra effort requires a ST roll, at -1
per 10% increase in ST.  This is one of the arguments used for what is called
'Quad ST' (argument for another forum; basically, Quad ST throws out extra
effort lifting and replaces ST with ST^2/10 for lifting formulae)
> 
> Also, the table on p.12 of CI is a little unclear to me. Is the "Extra
> Effort Lift" in *addition* to the "Max Lift?"
No.  Extra effort is really only particularly useful for ST above 16.

> If it is not the case, then why is the "Extra Effort Lift" for ST 15 less
> than the "Max Lift" value?

Because the extra effort lift table is 'amount you can lift with extra lift
while retaining a 16- ST roll'.  As such, the table should really start at ST
17, since below that you can't reliably use extra effort anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:41:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: OT: RPG Paranoia
...
>Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, 

  The loonies in question might have been sophisticated enough to have 
resented the implication that they were "D&D" players - White Wolfs
"Vampire" seems so much more fitting for the black trenchcoat crowd :)

  Now if only it turned out that they were Michael Bolton fans, too...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:40:30 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

"The Celts" as a people can not be lumped together when it comes to a 
discussion of patria/matriarcle ways.  As they were a tribal (clan) 
structured society it has been argued that some clans (mostly the ones in 
england, wales, and parts of central europe) were matriarcal.  his is guessed 
as old remnants of their language has the word "ap" in it used like the 
scottish "Mac" or Irish "O" but meaning "from" and would generally name the 
mother.  

Other clans as in Scottland, Ireland, parts of France were indeed patriarcal 
and passed lineage down by naming kids Mac Ewin (son of Ewin) or O'Conner 
(from Conner).  

The better books that mention this subject are:

"The Celts" by Gerhard Herm

"A History of Scotland"  by J.D. Mackie

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:50:30 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!

On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:14:58 -0300 Michel Vaillancourt
<misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> writes:
>
>        Hi, Jim....
>        Actually, he caught me in a *bad* mood when he did this and I 
>set my
>Linux box to the task of returning his message back to him around 
>1400
>times.  His mail server got the hint around 880, and deleted the 
>account.
>
>        --Michel

My man! You go, Michel! Hooya!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:58:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Conley <estar@wrench.toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

> 
> Anyone know much about such issues?

In the US Consitution the individual states are required to give full
faith and credit to each others law. We have treaties with
certain countries that give mutual full faith and credit to each other
contracts.

Given the nature of the Imperium I would say that all member worlds must
give full faith and credit to the Imperial Commerce Code but other than
that all bets are off.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:08:31 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: Legal Records

True but was it Hawaii or California I believe passed a law to recognize
same sex marriages but they are not recognized outside that state.  I would
also agree that on commerce type issues there is a common law but laws on
marriage and such those would be up to the individual world.  

As for personal legal papers, I would think your "passport" would be much
like that of today.  You may have a concealed permit but is it valid for
THIS planet?  I would also suspect that worlds closer together i.e. same
subsector or sector would be more inclined to respects the other's laws then
further away.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Robert Conley [mailto:estar@wrench.toolcity.net]
		Sent:	Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:59 PM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: Legal Records

		> 
		> Anyone know much about such issues?

		In the US Consitution the individual states are required to
give full
		faith and credit to each others law. We have treaties with
		certain countries that give mutual full faith and credit to
each other
		contracts.

		Given the nature of the Imperium I would say that all member
worlds must
		give full faith and credit to the Imperial Commerce Code but
other than
		that all bets are off.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:27:51 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

>As listed, its for lift only.  However, extra effort requires a ST roll, at -1
>per 10% increase in ST.  This is one of the arguments used for what is called
>'Quad ST' (argument for another forum; basically, Quad ST throws out extra
>effort lifting and replaces ST with ST^2/10 for lifting formulae)

Thanks again Anthony. Some more questions:

In my copy of CI, it says "The following table shows the maximum weight a
character can lift normally (i.e., ST x 25) and the weight he can lift on a
roll of 16 or less by using Extra Effort (see p. B89), expending 1 Fatigue
for every 100% weight increase over his normal maximum."

Is this errata, or am I somehow misunderstanding the rule?

Perhaps I am being dense here, but could you explain to me this 'Quad ST'
rule a little more in-depth? It doesn't seem to make sense with the above
explanation (example: battledress would have a lifting capability of
25^2/10=62.5 lbs.).

I just can't bear to sign onto the GURPSnet forum for this one question
(they just aren't so nice over there). :-/

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:25:20 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: ADMIN:  List Changes

I have changed the TML to require a confirmation before subscribing type 
list.   When you subscribe, you will get a message with a conformation 
number in it and you just reply to the message and send it before it will 
let you on the list.  This will hopefully prevent some spamming.  We had an 
incident this morning where an apparent address snoop subscribed to all our 
lists with a username of spam-l@somedomain.com.  I unsubed it about as fast 
as it came in, but . . .  Hopefully this config change will boot those 
types off.

Secondly, I have closed the "who" and "which" commands to only 
subscribers.  This will help keep people from picking up the list names to 
add to their spam lists.  I know this may inconvenience some, but such is life.

Rob
- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:31:29 +0100
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

>As listed, its for lift only.  However, extra effort requires a ST roll, at -1
>per 10% increase in ST.  This is one of the arguments used for what is called
>'Quad ST' (argument for another forum; basically, Quad ST throws out extra
>effort lifting and replaces ST with ST^2/10 for lifting formulae)

Thanks again Anthony. Some more questions:

In my copy of CI, it says "The following table shows the maximum weight a
character can lift normally (i.e., ST x 25) and the weight he can lift on a
roll of 16 or less by using Extra Effort (see p. B89), expending 1 Fatigue
for every 100% weight increase over his normal maximum."

Is this errata, or am I somehow misunderstanding the rule?

Perhaps I am being dense here, but could you explain to me this 'Quad ST'
rule a little more in-depth? It doesn't seem to make sense with the above
explanation (example: battledress would have a lifting capability of
25^2/10=62.5 lbs.).

I just can't bear to sign onto the GURPSnet forum for this one question
(they just aren't so nice over there). :-/

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:34:12 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Re Vilani Font

SignalGK@aol.com wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction of Glenn's Bilandin font? Rather than
> flood the mailing list with someone I'm sure everyone has, I'd appreciate it
> if you'd forward the details to: Jaieras@Aol.Com - thanking you in advance.

Me too.  I'd love to have it and don't know where to get it.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Battledress

Joseph R. Dietrich writes:
> Thanks again Anthony. Some more questions:
> 
> In my copy of CI, it says "The following table shows the maximum weight a
> character can lift normally (i.e., ST x 25) and the weight he can lift on a
> roll of 16 or less by using Extra Effort (see p. B89), expending 1 Fatigue
> for every 100% weight increase over his normal maximum."
> 
> Is this errata, or am I somehow misunderstanding the rule?

You're reading an incomplete rule (read the original rule on page B89).  To use
Extra Effort, you must make a ST roll, at -1 per 10% increase in lifting
capability.  The table in CII indicates how much you can lift and still have
your ST roll succeed on 16-.
> 
> Perhaps I am being dense here, but could you explain to me this 'Quad ST'
> rule a little more in-depth? It doesn't seem to make sense with the above
> explanation (example: battledress would have a lifting capability of
> 25^2/10=62.5 lbs.).
If using Quad ST, you recompute the ST of vehicles, so the above battledress
would have ST 16.  However, in the case of an actual ST 25, what this means is
that lifting ability would be computed in increments of 62.5 lb rather than 25
lb (thus, 'no' encumbrance would be up to 125 lb, not up to 50 lb).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:56:21 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
I wrote:
> >You've raised the question of conflict of laws.  There's no easy answer

> >Important points to remember in this analysis are: (1) an Imperial
> >member world's laws only apply on the world; (2) subject to certain
> >exceptions, anyone on a world must obey its laws; and (3) there is no
> >"full faith and credit" between Imperial member worlds.  (Caveat:  This
> >is my analysis, applicable to my Traveller universe, and not addressed
> >anywhere in canon so far as I know.)  

You wrote:
 
> One of the requirements for entry into the Imperium, IMO, would be the
> recognition of contracts made on other Imperial worlds.  While this is not
> explicitly stated, it can be inferred that this is the case due to the
> level of trade and other financial interests that not only span a few
> worlds, but also the entire Imperium.

I would think that Imperial law would only require member states to
recognize and enforce private contracts relating to interstellar
commerce (and that Imperial law would define that concept narrowly).  Of
course, member states could agree to a broader level of comity, which
would improve their trade position.  I don't see the later (say
post-bellum) Imperium requiring it, because it doesn't want to be
interfere with local governance any more than it has to, and because it
wants its member states to be loyal members, not forced into the
Imperium by direct oppression.  

So if a world chooses to deny enforcement of off-world contracts, it
will become a trade backwater.  The Imperium accepts that, because it
needs the world primarily for security reasons.  The Imperium is more
secure with the world as a backwater than either an independent world or
a world chafing under perceived Imperial oppression.  Most worlds, or at
least enough, will want the benefits of interstellar trade and
development.  If a few don't, the Imperium is big enough to let them be
underdeveloped -- and to wait for them to change their minds.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:27:01
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 11:41 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>>Subject: OT: RPG Paranoia
>...
>>Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, 
>
>  The loonies in question might have been sophisticated enough to have 
>resented the implication that they were "D&D" players - White Wolfs
>"Vampire" seems so much more fitting for the black trenchcoat crowd :)
>
>  Now if only it turned out that they were Michael Bolton fans, too...


It's already started:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/21
/MN31088.DTL
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:12:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re Vilani Font

At 03:34 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> Can anyone point me in the direction of Glenn's Bilandin font? Rather than
>> flood the mailing list with someone I'm sure everyone has, I'd
appreciate >>it if you'd forward the details to: Jaieras@Aol.Com - thanking
you in 
>>advance.
>
>Me too.  I'd love to have it and don't know where to get it.

It's avalible on my Traveller page.. just be careful that you are actually
saving it as a .ttf  some recent versions of Navigator insist on trying to
save it as a .htm file.  Right-click on the link and select "Save Link As"
to get around the problem.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:11:06 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Re Vilani Font

I have it in a zip file on my website.   Its at

http://www.geocities.com/area51/stargate/2891/index.html

Very little else there, ATM.  Much to come soon though (I hope)

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:34:12 -0400 Steve Daniels
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>
>
>SignalGK@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> Can anyone point me in the direction of Glenn's Bilandin font? 
>Rather than
>> flood the mailing list with someone I'm sure everyone has, I'd 
>appreciate it
>> if you'd forward the details to: Jaieras@Aol.Com - thanking you in 
>advance.
>
>Me too.  I'd love to have it and don't know where to get it.
>
>--
>Bloo
>Resounding Technology
>Creators of RogerWilco
>http://www.resounding.com/
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:16:45 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)

"Walter G. Smith" wrote:

> I'm still working on _Fleet Ops_, and noticed a need for information
> (or at least educated guesses) on the average Fleet Tactics skill of
> Admirals from different navies.
>
> Fleet Tactics skill will be crucial to managing task forces in _Fleet Ops_,
> allowing the Admiral to better arrange interceptions and pursuits. I was
> planning on factoring it out of the rules all together (assume same levels
> on each side so they factor out), but that doesn't match well with the
> ability to add PC's to the game - I'll at least need to know what I'm
> factoring out, so I can reduce a PC Admiral's effective Fleet Tactics skill
> accordingly.
>
> So, bring on the guesses - what's the average Fleet Tactics level of a
> Zhodani Admiral? A Solomani? A Hiver? A Sword Worlder?

Tough question.  I think one good measure might the length of time
and area in which a given navy has continuously operated in combat.
I think the Third Imperium is going to be the highest as a result of
the long history of naval operations against internal and external
threats.  (Among the Vilani and Solomani, I'd give a slight edge to
the Solomani for creativity versus the Vilani's strong attachments to
tradition and procedure - I'm assuming that creativity counts a great
deal for Fleet Tactics - - perhaps I'm confusing Fleet Tactics and
Strategy here - I could easily see the Vilani excelling at precision
manuevering tactics, 'showy' drill stuff, but in a dynamic combat
environment, thats not so helpful).

The Zhodani don't have much internal difficulty, so their need
to maintain tactical excellence is somewhat less pressing that
in the 3I.  Also, IMO, their dependence on their psionic
skills would make them generally less adept at fleet-vs.-fleet
battles.  Of humaniti fleets, I'd rank them lowest.

There is a very good case for Sword Worlds excelling
at tactics, given the history of internecine conflicts in their
realm.  Also their encounters with Darrian, Arden, Zhodani,
Border Worlders, the 3I, and possibly Aslan, exposes them
to a myriad of different tactics that, with their relatively small
population base (compared to the 3I), they would be able to
disseminate widely among their command staff.  However, their
aggressiveness may be a hindrance against more subtle enemies
and those internal conflicts may also often leave them short of
highly trained staff, with each new Admiral having to start from
zero and learn tactics from scratch.

Aslan are tough for me to place.  Probably on par with the 3I
as a whole.  Hivers would be similar to Zhodani, IMO.  They
may be the worst at Fleet Tactics.  Vargr would be all over the
map, I think.  Darrians might well be overdependent on their
technology.  K'Kree I have no idea, probably better than
Zhodani, but not as good as the Vilani.


So, I'd rank them:

Swordworlders
Solomani
Aslan (Third Imperium)
Vilani
Darrian
Zhodani
Hiver

Coming up with an average skill level, I would begin by estimating
what is the lowest Fleet Tactics skill that an Admiral in a given
society would be able to earn the position (anyone can be assigned
the rank, earning it is a different matter).

Assuming that an Admiral is rank 08 (as in T4), thats
7 terms (with a commision and promotion in the first term).
28 years of naval career.

For the worse navies, the absolute worst Admiral would have
Fleet Tactics-1, IMO.  What would be the best? For the
absolute worst navy, I'd say Fleet Tactics-3.  So I'd make the
average 2.

A long way to say that I'd set the averages at:
Swordworlders-4
Solomani-4
Aslan; Third Imperium-3
Vilani-3
Darrian-2
K'Kree-2
Zhodani-2
Hiver-2 (maybe 1?)


- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:28:58 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: OT: RPG Paranoia

Well, they may be delusional but at least it sounds like the officer did
some research  into Vampire the masquerade.  Of course I think I ought to go
over and point this out to White Wolf, they are down the street.  I smell
legal action here....

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Douglas E. Berry [mailto:dberry@hooked.net]
		Sent:	Wednesday, April 21, 1999 8:27 AM
		To:	traveller@mpgn.com
		Subject:	Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

		At 11:41 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
		>>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
		>>Subject: OT: RPG Paranoia
		>...
		>>Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, 
		>
		>  The loonies in question might have been sophisticated
enough to have 
		>resented the implication that they were "D&D" players -
White Wolfs
		>"Vampire" seems so much more fitting for the black
trenchcoat crowd :)
		>
		>  Now if only it turned out that they were Michael Bolton
fans, too...


		It's already started:

	
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/21
		/MN31088.DTL
		-- 

		Doug Berry
		dberry@hooked.net
		http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #484
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 485



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: OT: RPG Paranoia
RE: Legal Records
Something wrong???
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
RE: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)
re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill
Fleet Ops Pre-Release (was re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill)
Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)
Re: Legal Records
Re: SCRAM
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Saving the throne
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
How big was the Classical Darrian population?
Re: Celtic Matriarchy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:48:43 -0400
From: Clint Fishback <Clint.Fishback@digital.com>
Subject: RE: OT: RPG Paranoia

Well I just sent an email to the San Francisco Chronicle expressing my
concern for smearing the true.  And just to be evil, cuz you know all of us
gamers are inherently evil, I sent email to White Wolf giving them the link
and explaining what's going on.  Let them sic the corporate lawyers on
Sergeant Williams.  Hehehehe.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Clint Fishback 
		Sent:	Wednesday, April 21, 1999 4:29 PM
		To:	'traveller@mpgn.com'
		Subject:	RE: OT: RPG Paranoia

		Well, they may be delusional but at least it sounds like the
officer did
		some research  into Vampire the masquerade.  Of course I
think I ought to go
		over and point this out to White Wolf, they are down the
street.  I smell
		legal action here....

				-----Original Message-----
				From:	Douglas E. Berry
[mailto:dberry@hooked.net]
				Sent:	Wednesday, April 21, 1999 8:27 AM
				To:	traveller@mpgn.com
				Subject:	Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

				At 11:41 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
				>>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
				>>Subject: OT: RPG Paranoia
				>...
				>>Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons
and Dragons, 
				>
				>  The loonies in question might have been
sophisticated
		enough to have 
				>resented the implication that they were
"D&D" players -
		White Wolfs
				>"Vampire" seems so much more fitting for
the black
		trenchcoat crowd :)
				>
				>  Now if only it turned out that they were
Michael Bolton
		fans, too...


				It's already started:

			
	
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/21
				/MN31088.DTL
				-- 

				Doug Berry
				dberry@hooked.net
				http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:52:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <raymond@macalester.edu>
Subject: RE: Legal Records

On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Clint Fishback wrote:

> True but was it Hawaii or California I believe passed a law to recognize
> same sex marriages but they are not recognized outside that state.  I would
> also agree that on commerce type issues there is a common law but laws on
> marriage and such those would be up to the individual world.  

No, unfortunately, this is not correct.  There is no state in the entire
United States that recognizes same-gender marriage.  A few localities
provide recognition of same-gender partnerships, but this is nothing like
marriage.
 
In the case of Hawai'i, the state law regarding marriage as between people
of two different genders is being challenged in the courts.  It is
currently bing argued in front of the Hawai'ian Supreme Court.  California
has _no_ recognition at the state level of any kind for same-gender
relationships (a legacy of Republican governors).
 
ObTrav: there is a lot of ground to cover around relationships in the
future, and how they will be recognized.  I would recomend Donald
Kingsbury's _Courtship_Rite_, and Samuel R. Delany's _Babel-17_ as two
interesting sources of inspiration and reflection.  And, of course, there
is Heinlein.  :)
 
Victor Raymond

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:59:04 +1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Something wrong???

Did anybody else miss being sent digests 460-481. They just aren't there
in my mail download...



- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:01:11 -0400
From: "Mike Basinger" <dbasinge@cviog.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

This has happen since the dawn of RPGs. I (my group) was accused of being a
devil worshipers by a local church (southern Baptist) in my home town. The
catholic priest at my church came out in our defense in the local paper, saying
it was no worse than a game of cards.

People are in shock, but people with brains will realize the damage was caused
by the two teens involved and not by any hobbies they had.

On another note; Sales of RPGs go up when they get bad press, according to a
friend of mine who use to own a gaming store. Go Figure.

Mike Basinger

Clint Fishback wrote:

> Well, they may be delusional but at least it sounds like the officer did
> some research  into Vampire the masquerade.  Of course I think I ought to go
> over and point this out to White Wolf, they are down the street.  I smell
> legal action here....
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From:   Douglas E. Berry [mailto:dberry@hooked.net]
>                 Sent:   Wednesday, April 21, 1999 8:27 AM
>                 To:     traveller@mpgn.com
>                 Subject:        Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
>
>                 At 11:41 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>                 >>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>                 >>Subject: OT: RPG Paranoia
>                 >...
>                 >>Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons,
>                 >
>                 >  The loonies in question might have been sophisticated
> enough to have
>                 >resented the implication that they were "D&D" players -
> White Wolfs
>                 >"Vampire" seems so much more fitting for the black
> trenchcoat crowd :)
>                 >
>                 >  Now if only it turned out that they were Michael Bolton
> fans, too...
>
>                 It's already started:
>
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/21
>                 /MN31088.DTL
>                 --
>
>                 Doug Berry
>                 dberry@hooked.net
>                 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

- --
D. Michael Basinger - Computer Support Specialist IV
Carl Vinson Institute of Government - University of Georgia
dbasinge@cviog.uga.edu - http://xboat.cviog.uga.edu/~dbasinge

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:09:13 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)

On Wednesday, 21 April 1999 15:17, Steve Daniels
[SMTP:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com] wrote:
> Tough question.  I think one good measure might the length of time
> and area in which a given navy has continuously operated in combat.
> I think the Third Imperium is going to be the highest as a result of
> the long history of naval operations against internal and external
> threats. 

However, you also have the possibility that because the 3I navy has been in
existence for such a long time, and the 3I usually is able to bring massive
support to the front line, that the naval tactic of the 3I has stagnated at
a fairly moderate level.

> The Zhodani don't have much internal difficulty, so their need
> to maintain tactical excellence is somewhat less pressing that
> in the 3I.  Also, IMO, their dependence on their psionic
> skills would make them generally less adept at fleet-vs.-fleet
> battles.  Of humaniti fleets, I'd rank them lowest.

Except that the Zhos know how and why people make decisions under stress and
threat better than any other race.  Also, with the proliferation of psychers
in the upper ranks, it would be easier to tell your subordinates what you
wanted to do without as large a chance of miscommunication.  That may make
them better able to carry out fleet maneuvers.  However, their lacking of
practical warfare experience might hinder this.

> For the worse navies, the absolute worst Admiral would have
> Fleet Tactics-1, IMO.  What would be the best? For the
> absolute worst navy, I'd say Fleet Tactics-3.  So I'd make the
> average 2.
> 
> A long way to say that I'd set the averages at:

Dunno - I see it slightly different.
> Swordworlders-4
I can see this.  Bring the Viking blood out.
> Solomani-4
> Aslan; Third Imperium-3
Part of me wants to make these equal, or maybe penalize the 3I.
> Vilani-3
> Zhodani-2
I might bump the Zho up to 3

> Hiver-2 (maybe 1?)
Hiver are difficult.  Most fleet exercises are more theoretical than
hands-on.  Since Hiver have very little trouble with long-distance violence
(they have problems with up close and personal dirty work)  I don't think
that I would make it so low.

Therefore, I might rank them as such: (rank followed by range of most (say
66%) admirals)
Swordworlders - 5 
	With their smaller navies, they might be able to be more selective
wrt who gets into positions of fleet control.  Also, it might be more
difficult for anyone less skilled to rise to such a position.

Solomoni - 4
	The Solomoni are just incredible sneaky, and the diversity of
Humanitii comes through.

3I, Vilani - 3
	There are a lot of fair-to-middln' fleet admirals in the 3I (lots of
people are Admirals due to other than military skill).  After restoration of
the Ziru Sirkaa, the Vilani kept most of their 3I Naval textbooks.

Aslan -4
	They are, after all, warriors.

Hiver - 4
	I kind of like having Hiver that are 'death on thruster plates'.  Of
course, that they are this good would not be widely known at all outside of
the Hiver world.  These little guys give me the creeps :-).

Vargr - ?
	Each fleet should be determined randomly?

Zhodani - 3
	Easily on par with the 3I, but their lack of many outside enemies
(except the 3I)  limits their skill to the more theoretical.

Darrian - 2
	Again, most of their knowledge is theoretical.

K'Kree - 2
	Since the K'Kree ships are large ponderous beasts, fleet tactics
mostly consist of keeping out of the way of other fleets.  If a K'kree fleet
does not have overwhelming superiority, they'll just go away and fight
another day.

So, a random table of Fleet Tactic skills might look like this:
- --------
Roll	Fleet Tactics Skill by Race/Government
(2d)	SW		Solo	3I		Vilani	Aslan	Zho
Darran	K'Kree			
2	2		1		1		1		2
1		1		1
3	3		2		1		2		2
2		1		1
4	4		3		1		3		3
2		1		1
5	4		3		2		3		3
3		2		1
6	5		4		2		3		3
3		2		2
7	5		4		3		3		4
3		2		2
8	5		4		3		3		4
3		2		2
9	5		5		3		3		4
3		2		2
10	5		5		4		3		5
4		2		3
11	6		5		5		4		5
4		3		3
12	6		6		6		5		6
5		4		4

Vargr: roll 1d-1 for Fleet tactics skill.  Die roll is skill level.  Skill
level 0 represents no skill
- ---------


All this is, of course, IMTU.  Actual milage may vary, do not eat, do not
submerge in water, etc.

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:14:13 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip analysis that brought the following WAG>
A long way to say that I'd set the averages at:
Swordworlders-4
Solomani-4
Aslan; Third Imperium-3
Vilani-3
Darrian-2
K'Kree-2
Zhodani-2
Hiver-2 (maybe 1?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'll agree with the Hiver-1. <G>

Thanks Bloo, that provides a starting point at least. I'm writing the Pursuit
and Interception rules for Fleet Ops to assume equal skills for admirals,
I'll use info like the above to provide "advanced rules" for racial modifiers
and PC skills.

IIRC, High Guard assumes skill level 2- for such things as Pilots and 
Gunners. Pilots get to add (Pilot Skill-1)/2 to their ship's agility, so you
need pilot skill 3+ to get an agility bonus. Some similar formula could be
used to normalize PC skill levels with "average" skill levels.

I'd like to have "Grizzled Veteran Naval Depot Commander Hands Hotshot
Young Admiral His Head" as a viable Defender vs Intruder scenario for this, 
so a mechanism for major characters' skill level is required. <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:26:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Fleet Ops Pre-Release (was re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill)

Thanks for the responses so far on estimating average Fleet Tactics skill.

A nice thing about the ideas I'm receiving - since it's just a number to be
popped into the game, it's easy to change if one person sees Hivers as
calculating monsters (Fleet Tactics 4+) while someone else sees them
as less than interested in actual combat (Fleet Tactics 2-).

I've put the work so far on Fleet Ops on a web page, 
http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/fleet_ops.htm .

I've completed (most of) the Definitions, the bits on intial deployment, 
and the rules for Bases. Movement and Pursuit/Interception rules are still
to come, as are the rules for Lurking and Gas Giant combat. Feel free
to look and comment at the pre-release document.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:02:18 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)

"Moody, Danny M." wrote:

> On Wednesday, 21 April 1999 15:17, Steve Daniels
> [SMTP:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com] wrote:
> > Tough question.  I think one good measure might the length of time
> > and area in which a given navy has continuously operated in combat.
> > I think the Third Imperium is going to be the highest as a result of
> > the long history of naval operations against internal and external
> > threats.
>
> However, you also have the possibility that because the 3I navy has been in
> existence for such a long time, and the 3I usually is able to bring massive
> support to the front line, that the naval tactic of the 3I has stagnated at
> a fairly moderate level.

Good point.  I think though that the average will be in the area I've
suggested but that the high and the low will be over a wider range,
which might be justified by the sheer size of the 3I..  So there will be
some FT-0's and some FT-8s.  I think smaller navies might not
have such a wide range of FT skill.

> > The Zhodani don't have much internal difficulty, so their need
> > to maintain tactical excellence is somewhat less pressing that
> > in the 3I.  Also, IMO, their dependence on their psionic
> > skills would make them generally less adept at fleet-vs.-fleet
> > battles.  Of humaniti fleets, I'd rank them lowest.
>
> Except that the Zhos know how and why people make decisions under stress and
> threat better than any other race.

I would amend this to say that the Zhos know how and why other _Zhos_
behave.  YTUMV.


>  Also, with the proliferation of psychers
> in the upper ranks, it would be easier to tell your subordinates what you
> wanted to do without as large a chance of miscommunication.  That may make
> them better able to carry out fleet maneuvers.  However, their lacking of
> practical warfare experience might hinder this.

There is an issue about FT as a skill for accomplishing efficient
manuevers versus conducting combat.

[snip]

A lot of good food for thought in the rest of your post.

- --
Bloo
Resounding Technology
Creators of RogerWilco
http://www.resounding.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:59:41 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Legal Records

In a message dated 4/21/99 3:13:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Clint.Fishback@digital.com writes:

<< True but was it Hawaii or California I believe passed a law to recognize
 same sex marriages but they are not recognized outside that state.  >>

	It was Hawaii, and the legislature did not pass such a law, rather it 
was a state court interpretation.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:03:04 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Perceval Lowry wrote:

>A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
>introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
>early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
>reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
>safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
>of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:32:40 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/21/99 1:03:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< t's already started:
 
 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/21
 /MN31088.DTL
 --  >>

Doug;

I got an "article not found" for this address...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:36:35 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/21/99 1:52:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Clint.Fishback@digital.com writes:

<< Well I just sent an email to the San Francisco Chronicle expressing my
 concern for smearing the true.  And just to be evil, cuz you know all of us
 gamers are inherently evil, I sent email to White Wolf giving them the link
 and explaining what's going on.  Let them sic the corporate lawyers on
 Sergeant Williams.  Hehehehe.
  >>

maybe this is why I got an "article not found" at this address at 15:33 
PST...serves 'em right...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:43:52 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Saving the throne

Bruce Johnson writes:

>Owned worlds are one thing, The Federation of Planets are another. The
>Imperium doesn't want any rivals.
> 
>As far as megacorps go, yes they are multi-world; but the Imperium, in
>many ways _is_ the megas, and vice versa. The heads of the megas are
>likely very highly placed nobles. A very intertwined system so that
>what's good for Marikhadun is good for the Imperium, and vice versa...

All very possible. But can you quote any canon to that effect? Or is it
just IYTU?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:47:18 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

Sethkimmel wrote:
> I got an "article not found" for this address...
>

I got that too. The link is split. try highlighting the whole thing and
copy/paste it into your browser.

If you click on the link, the "/MN31088.DTL" won't come up.

That worked for me.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> In a message dated 4/21/99 1:03:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> dberry@hooked.net writes:
>
> << t's already started:
>
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/21
>  /MN31088.DTL
>  --  >>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:07:27 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

I just tried it. It works.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

Sethkimmel wrote:
> In a message dated 4/21/99 1:52:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> Clint.Fishback@digital.com writes:
>
> << Well I just sent an email to the San Francisco Chronicle expressing my
>  concern for smearing the true.  And just to be evil, cuz you know all of
us
>  gamers are inherently evil, I sent email to White Wolf giving them the
link
>  and explaining what's going on.  Let them sic the corporate lawyers on
>  Sergeant Williams.  Hehehehe.
>   >>
>
> maybe this is why I got an "article not found" at this address at 15:33
> PST...serves 'em right...
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:58:24 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

In a message dated 4/21/99 2:45:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tascelt@aol.com 
writes:

<< "The Celts" as a people can not be lumped together when it comes to a 
 discussion of patria/matriarcle ways.  As they were a tribal (clan) 
 structured society it has been argued that some clans (mostly the ones in 
 england, wales, and parts of central europe) were matriarcal.  his is 
guessed 
 as old remnants of their language has the word "ap" in it used like the 
 scottish "Mac" or Irish "O" but meaning "from" and would generally name the 
 mother.  
  >>

	These are, of course, the least well documented clans of Celts, so we 
can ascribe heaps of things to them at will.   "Ap"  linguistically is 
actuallt the same word as Mac   (Gaulish/British Celtic has a "p" where Irish 
has a c/q, M dropping out in this case of Welsh).  There is no real reason to 
consider these clans matriarchal.   While the Picts and others were said to 
be Matrilineal:  this in no way implies Matriarchy!     Matrilineal merely 
means that property is passed through the female bloodline, it does not mean 
that women rule the society.  example;  the Picts chose their kings from the 
husband of the  daughter of the previous queen.    But the KINGS ruled, not 
the queens.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:16:39 -0500
From: Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com>
Subject: How big was the Classical Darrian population?

Hans SWAGged a population of 600 million.  Is that all, Hans?
That's a really impressive TL for so few people!  That is simply
amazing!

Actually, I probably swagged more than you: I didn't even consult
the Book.  Lessee here...

You know, they didn't really colonize in earnest until they were
already TL14... very interesting...

From -1521 to -925 or so... ok, page 11 is a big ol' map of
the Classic Darrian worlds.  "Worlds without names or starports
are unsettled in -925"... I'll bet the starport ratings aren't Classical,
either... bummer.  Well, anyway, here are the settled worlds:

Darrian       0627

Major settlements (ones that survived)

Laberv        0325
Ektron        0326
Engrange      0425
Ilium         0426
Roget         0427
Rorre         0526
Mire          0527
Condaria      0528
Jacent        0624
494-908       0625
Spume         0727

Minor settlements  (too dependent to survive)

Stern-Stern   0223
Saxe          0231
Nonym         0321
Gothe         0332
Zamine        0421
Bularia       0430
Entrope       0720
Torment       0721
Trifuge       0723
Nosea         0724
Ator          0729
Ralhe         0731
Cunnonic      0822
Tizon         0922
Flammarion    0930
Colada        1022
Anduril       1026
567-908       1031  <--- interesting...
Joyeuse       1123
Faldor        1131
Bowman        1132
Gram          1223
Excalibur     1225
Caladbolg     1329
Tavonni       1520
Dawnworld     1531

Known Darrian Exploitations

Debarre       0830
Talchek       1631

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:27:31 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

- -----Original Message-----
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com <jmaclean@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999 6:47
Subject: Celtic Matriarchy



> The reference to "the goddess" I also find suspect.  It is a term I've
>only heard from "New Age" sources and it was again not something ever
>brought up in my course.  I also am wondering in what way the queen might
be
>said to rule if her husband had responsibility for management and warfare.
>What's left?
>
>

The Goddess is new age?  Wiccan/paganism/druidism/et al has been around
since man started worshipping deities, the Goddess or Earth Mother was one
of the oldest deities, worshipped from Ireland, England, through to France,
Spain, and Germany, with reachings into Italy too (though these places were
not actually known by those names at the time, you had Briton and Gaul, and
the like).

Myself, I would find suspect any Celtic courses put forward by an institute
that didn't mention the religion, as it was a huge part of these barbarian
cultures.  I am not wiccan myself (paganism, druidism, etc. virtually all
mean the same if you search the web or go to your local library), but I know
many who are.  There is quite a bit about it on the net, often
misunderstood.  For example, the US military allows it (there is a web site
somewhere) as a recognised religion, yet filters such as NetNanny won't
allow you to access the site because of the words wiccan and paganism which
they assume to mean "Satanism"!  Misunderstood...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #485
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 486



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Legal Records...
Re: Legal Records
RE: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Legal Records
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Fw: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)
Re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill
Re: SCRAM
FFW Fleet Admirals for Fleet Ops
Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)
White Globes
Re: Legal Records & conflict of laws
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
GT Tech Level 9
Re: GT
Re: FFW Fleet Admirals for Fleet Ops
Re: Legal Records

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Gregory Wall wrote:

> For example, the US military allows it (there is a web site
> somewhere) as a recognised religion,
<snip>

Check:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3541/chaplain_wicca.html

ObTrav: Anyone evr use Wicans/Witches in their Traveller games? It'd be a
way cool planetary society to cook up for the players to visit a wiccan
dominated society, perhaps decended from wiccan colonists fleeing from the
society that so misunderstands their beliefs.

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:08:49 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Legal Records...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999 1:19
Subject: Legal Records


>This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
>some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
>population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
>(services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
>Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
>to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
>years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
>that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
>I still love this person?
>
>The best thing I can come up with is some sort of WORM card that carries
>images of all the important documents in your life.
>
>Any other ideas?
>

I'd always assumed all of a traveller's legal standing's and documentation
would be part of their travel documents in an electronic media, like a
magnetic-like strip (adjust for YTU) on the back pages of their "passport."
Indeed, the whole thing (the travel docs) could be a smart card?  Every time
the traveller applies for passage off-world, part of the process is
up-grading the info in their personal documents.

It's a simple fix and others may like it to go deeper or become more
complicated, but it worked in my old games (where I used the smart card
passport).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:20:52 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brannon W. Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999 2:17
Subject: Re: Legal Records



>
>Is there such a thing as "Imperial Marriage?" I mean, does Lunion care if
>you've been married on Regina or not? As I understand it, Imperial laws -
>in my mind, the only laws enforceable cross-planet - do not cover such
>mundane issues as marriage.
>

I would imagine that you would still have to have records of such things for
*when* they count.  It may be trivial in an Imperial government situation,
but not to local governments.

>How about if you get married on World A, where monogamy is the law, then
>get married again on Planet B, where polygamy is legal? Can your wife on
>Planet A have you prosecuted? Does it matter whether you are a "citizen"
>of planet A or Planet B? What if you're neither?
>

Cross cultures tend to cross laws in a way (for want of a better term).  If
you are married on world A and never want to return there, fine, but if you
return and all your data is on your travel docs, it means you are in breach
of local laws as you are possibly still a citizen of world A and now have
2-wives!  And I'm sure world A would look after your former wife with the
full strength of the law if she didn't like the idea of you having another
missus.  I'm assuming that PC's and NPC's alike have to play by whatever
laws are local?

>This brings up another point -- do citizens of the Imperium also have to
>hold planetary citizenship, or can they declare themselves "worldless" and
>just be Imperial Citizens?
>

A whole nother ball game.  I would think it depended upon individual TU's.
One would possibly be a citizen of their birthworld by default I would
assume, while some worlds would demand you to become a citizen if you wanted
to marry a local, get a job, have voting rights, claim unemployment, and the
list goes on... either one of these criteria, all of them, or a combination.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:08:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 04:48 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Well I just sent an email to the San Francisco Chronicle expressing my
>concern for smearing the true.  And just to be evil, cuz you know all of us
>gamers are inherently evil, I sent email to White Wolf giving them the link
>and explaining what's going on.  Let them sic the corporate lawyers on
>Sergeant Williams.  Hehehehe.

Along with my email to the Chronicle, I also forwarded the article to the
director of the Penisula Masquerade Group, and he's already invited the
Chron to send a reporter to cover what they really do.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:12:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 06:32 PM 4/21/99 EDT, you wrote:

>I got an "article not found" for this address...

Just go to sfgate.com and follow the link for the Littleton story.. The
article in question is in the "related stories" area, and is "Classmates
describe gunmen..."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:28:48 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

>On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>Is there such a thing as "Imperial Marriage?" I mean, does Lunion care if
>you've been married on Regina or not? As I understand it, Imperial laws -
>in my mind, the only laws enforceable cross-planet - do not cover such
>mundane issues as marriage.

Why would there be?

Leaving aside the religious aspects, marriage is a civil contract, and
would be dealt with as any other civil arrangement.


>This brings up another point -- do citizens of the Imperium also have to
>hold planetary citizenship, or can they declare themselves "worldless" and
>just be Imperial Citizens?

I would figure that everyone would also have a planetary citizenship (or at
least official residence). Think of it as being an American citizen: you
still have a state of residence. Some states have benefits (like easy
residence requirements and low taxes -- IIRC Texas is one like that) that
some can take advantage of.


Both the above are my opinion, of course. I would argue the marriage case a
lot more strongly, but then I'm not convinced that murder in and of itself
is an Imperial crime (after all, the Imperium allows wars, tradewars, and
so forth).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:31:55 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>> >At 10:14 PM 4/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >>Never mind that -- beasts "that are on the earth". The K'Kree
>> [snip]
>> >But there you get into a question...
>>
>> Oh this old discussion again.  Can't we get this in the FAQ under "Done to
>> Death"?!?
>
>Why? I happen to like the annual K"Kree Barbeque thread.

Besides, if the K'kree isn't "done to death" then it squeals as you eat it,
which is distracting :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:50:19 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>It'll not only turn into a RPG witch-hunt, but a gun witch-hunt, and an
>internet witch hunt, and a reinactors witch hunt. As I'm a wargamer, RPGer,
>use the internet, own guns (and I lock them up!), and am a Civil War
>reinactor; it means dark times ahead, because two sets of wealthy parents
>decided they would rather spend time at the country club instead of
>supervising their children (admittedly a gross stereotype, but considering
>the reports of many students with cell phones and one of the perpetrators
>driving a BMW, not unreasonable...). What'll happen is that all of the
>"odd-non white bread" students will be more ostracised, and suspected of
>being psychopaths. I suspect that everybody on this list were considered part
>of the "not-in" crowd in high school, yet we turned out OK....Of course we'll
>be blamed instead of the parents....
>
>Rant mode off; sorry I had to get this off my chest. I'm a student teacher,
>and it really frustrates me how disposable parents treat their kids. They
>treat their pets better...

Oddly enough, I've been discussing this in class today. Many of my students
pointed out that far worse things happen in other countries, yet don't make
the news because it's not an American event. (An interesting discussion
about why Canadian news relies so heavily on American newswires resulted,
too.)

I pointed out that the individuals involved, according to the WP story as
printed in the Toronto Star, were actually former students who had returned
to the school. This may not be correct, but it was in the printed story.
Internal inconsistency there.

I would be _very_ curious as to the family background of the murderers. If
they were, as Seth deduced, given more money than parental attention that
wouldn't surprise me -- I see far too much of that. OTOH, the vast majority
of my parents are trying hard to do the best for their kids. Sadly, many
have been seduced by consumer culture into thinking that "best" means "most
toys and trips" instead of "attention".

Interesting to note that D&D and Gothic subculture were targetted in the
same sentence. No mention of Vampire: The Masquerade (which even had a TV
series). No mention of Anne Rice novels, films like "Devil's Advocate",...
I'm planning on writing to the Star and protesting the shoddy research that
went into the story. Hell, opening up a D&D book would have shown that
inept reporter that there wasn't a direct link.

Like Seth, sorry for the rant. I've been discussing it all day, same points
over and over. Tomorrow I take in my D&D books to show the students that
there isn't any "Gothic" stuff there. I still expect hassle from the admin
about the gaming club my kids want to start, though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:22:03 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill (long)


>
>
>"Moody, Danny M." wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, 21 April 1999 15:17, Steve Daniels
>> [SMTP:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com] wrote:
>> > Tough question.  I think one good measure might the length of time
>> > and area in which a given navy has continuously operated in combat.
>> > I think the Third Imperium is going to be the highest as a result of
>> > the long history of naval operations against internal and external
>> > threats.
>>
>> However, you also have the possibility that because the 3I navy has been
in
>> existence for such a long time, and the 3I usually is able to bring
massive
>> support to the front line, that the naval tactic of the 3I has stagnated
at
>> a fairly moderate level.
>
>Good point.  I think though that the average will be in the area I've
>suggested but that the high and the low will be over a wider range,
>which might be justified by the sheer size of the 3I..  So there will be
>some FT-0's and some FT-8s.  I think smaller navies might not
>have such a wide range of FT skill.



Something else to consider is the politically-oriented nature of high
command within the Imperium- Nobles will tend to dominate, and have a
substantial advantage in becoming officers in the Navy.  While some
societies (Great Britain, for example) have survived this sort of favoritism
in the past, this is clearly not uniformly beneficial.  Norris taking over
in FFW is an example of this habit being useful, Lucan micro-managing fleets
the opposite.  All things considered, it seems that Imperial officers are
given a little more lattitude than their competition, which would possibly
lead to greater effectiveness.


>
>> > The Zhodani don't have much internal difficulty, so their need
>> > to maintain tactical excellence is somewhat less pressing that
>> > in the 3I.  Also, IMO, their dependence on their psionic
>> > skills would make them generally less adept at fleet-vs.-fleet
>> > battles.  Of humaniti fleets, I'd rank them lowest.
>>
>> Except that the Zhos know how and why people make decisions under stress
and
>> threat better than any other race.
>
>I would amend this to say that the Zhos know how and why other _Zhos_
>behave.  YTUMV.
>
>
>>  Also, with the proliferation of psychers
>> in the upper ranks, it would be easier to tell your subordinates what you
>> wanted to do without as large a chance of miscommunication.  That may
make
>> them better able to carry out fleet maneuvers.  However, their lacking of
>> practical warfare experience might hinder this.
>
>There is an issue about FT as a skill for accomplishing efficient
>manuevers versus conducting combat.

The Zhos have one HUGE advantage over the others- uniformity of purpose.
While not always a 100% good thing, I beleive that a Zho unit will, all
other things being equal, be much more likely to be effeectively cooperating
than any other race.  Also, given the fact that all the officers are
psionic, it seems fairly sure that there will be few, if any,
misunderstandings during a briefing.  The commander will KNOW that everyone
understands the plan and their place in it, and what their reservations are.
Any of you who have ever given an operations order will understand how
incredibly useful this would be.  OTOH, it does seem that according to
canon, they have less experience than the others.

As for the others:


Swordworlders:  I am somewhat surprised to see a coalition rated so highly.
If you pay attnetion, you will notice that the SWs will typically be placed
under the command of the leader of the largest contingent, not the best
leader.  This alone, IMHO, would serve to bring down their skill at least 1.
Also, considering their decidedly lackadaisical performance in FFW,  it
doesn't seem warranted.  On that thought, lets look at the leader counters
in FFW- AFAIK, the only canon source.  Now, I don't know how the tactical
modifier equates to fleet tactics, and the plotting number certainly doesn't
seem directly related, but lets look at the stats:

Imperial Navy (14 admirals)     Average Tactical Skill= .79    Average
plotting=2.57 -default is 5
    note that only two Imperial admirals associate high tactical skill with
a 0 or 1 plot- Mtume, #4, and Goolanzoon, #5.  Also only eight of them have
positive tactical mods- four of these are only +1.
Vargr (3 admirals, of which one will serve as Imperial #15, chosen at
random) ATS= 1.67    AP=3 -default is 5
    ALL of them have positive tactical skill, though Gvungughz, #3 is
clearly the top dog, a +3 to the others' +1.
Swordworlders (Three admirals, one of which will serve as Zhodani #15)
ATS=1.67    AP=3.33 -default is 5
    Again, good tactical skills, but none are outstanding (2 +2s, no +3s).
Also, they are the worst strategically.
Zhodani (14 admirals)    ATS=.79 (hey, I think I see a trend)
   AP=1.9 -default is 4
    note only one negative and seven 0 tactical skills.  Also, again, only
two truly outstanding leaders, Benshatl #9 and Chienjstebr #10

So where does this lead us?  Overall, the Impies have a wider range of
tactical skills and decent plotting.  Subjectively, here's how I would rate
them:
        2 outstanding
        3 good
        2 fair
        4 useful
        3 useless
Overall, they posess no clear advantage.

The Sws aren't really that good, they have one decent admiral (Tryggvesson,
#3).  Tactically, they are higher than the Imperium, but there are two Imp
admirals better than any Sw.

The Vargr have two decent admirals and one useful one.  A trait shared with
the Sw is the low plot bonus and high tactical bonus, though they are in hot
water if the Imps pick Gvungughz as their mercenary.

The Zhodani are much more uniform, as I would rate them as
        2 outstanding
        4 good
        5 fair
        3 useful
The WORST Zho skipper (either 2 -1 or 3 0) is better to or equal to the
bottom 7 imperial admirals.  Overall, it looks like the Zhos are more
consistent.  They are less likely to have a tactical bonus OR penalty.  You
might not get an ace, but you won't get a fool either.

Admittedly, this is small sample, particularly the SW and Vargr, but it
seems to show that the smaller navies have a strategic disadvantage paired
with a tactical edge.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:28:41 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill

Here are the admirals included in Fifth Frontier War, with their ratings.
For planning factor, lower is better and 0 is best:

Planning	Imperial	Zhodani	Sword Worlds	Vargr
4		7		0		2		1
3		1		4		0		1
2		1		6		1		1
1		2		2		0		0
0		3		2		0		0
avg		2.5		1.9		3.3		3.0

Tactics	Imperial	Zhodani	Sword Worlds	Vargr
- -1		3		1		0		0
0		3		7		0		0
+1		4		2		1		2
+2		2		2		2		0
+3		2		2		0		1
avg		0.8		0.8		1.7		1.7

So, by these measures the Zhodani have the best operational planning and
initiative, followed by the Imperials, Vargr, and Sword Worlds; the Sworld
Worlds and Vargr have superior tactical ability (tied for first), while the
Zhodani and Imperials are tied for third. 

Unfortunately, neither FFW nor Imperial Squadrons give a conversion from
player-character skills to ratings, so you'll have to make your own
determination.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:42:53 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

At 11:03 PM 4/21/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Perceval Lowry wrote:
>
>>A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
>>introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
>>early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
>>reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
>>safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
>>of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
>                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
>case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
>presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.

Yup, like I said, extreme emergency.... I got this info from one of the
modern-war authors (Clancy, Brown, DiMercutio...) I don't remember which
one...  As I said I'm not real sure about this, just something I read...

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:15:37 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: FFW Fleet Admirals for Fleet Ops

I have Fifth Frontier War, I'd not thought to check it for comparative 
admirals. A small sample, but I'll bet these were the among the most
senior admirals for each navy at the time.

I think I'd place more weight on the Tactical bonus than I would on the
Plot bonus. I see Fleet Tactics as a combat skill, how to fight a fleet
(as Ship Tactics is how to effectively fight a ship) rather than how to
fight a Navy. I believe the grand strategy decisions - which star system to 
send the fleets to - would be more abstract. This grand strategy capability 
may make up a portion of the Admiral's Fleet Tactics skill, but I think what 
he can do inside a system would be the lion's share of the skill.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:01:09 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Are K'Kree Kosher? (Was: Re: Failed Societies)

Robert Prior wrote:

> >> Oh this old discussion again.  Can't we get this in the FAQ under "Done to
> >> Death"?!?
> >
> >Why? I happen to like the annual K"Kree Barbeque thread.
>
> Besides, if the K'kree isn't "done to death" then it squeals as you eat it,
> which is distracting :-)


But I like that sound...
- --
Evyn...
One of the Voices of Radio Free Scotland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:07:17 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: White Globes

GURPS Traveller mentions "White Globes" as well as black globes. I don't
remember these devices and haven't been able to find any Library Data
entries on them. Are they from an obscure Adventure pack, or am I just more
ignorant than usual?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:44:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Legal Records & conflict of laws

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> Subject: Re: Legal Records

> In the real world, is a marriage conducted in Iraq valid under US law?
> Would it be permisable for a person married in Iraq to get married to a
> woman in the US without divorcing his previous Iraqi wife? (I chose Iraq
> because it seems unlikely that the US has any kind of reciprocal contract
> recognition agreement with them).

Bear in mind that each state of the United States has its own laws
regarding what makes a valid marriage, and its own laws regarding
conflicts of law.  I'm going to discuss general principles of American
jurisprudence, without looking up any state's (or Iraq's) law.  

Normally, if any foreign (here meaning outside the United States, as
opposed to outside a particular state) government recognizes a marriage
made in its country as valid, any state of the United States will also
recognize that marriage, whether there is a treaty in place or not.  If
that is the case, then the second marriage, in the U.S. state, would be
bigamous in that state.

(An exception to my first sentence in the previous paragraph is that
U.S. states won't recognize marriages that conflict with important
public policies, like prohibitions on polygamy or marriage between close
relatives.)

The United States is not a good model for the Imperium, but I hope this
analysis is nevertheless helpful.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:52:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>   The loonies in question might have been sophisticated enough to have 
> resented the implication that they were "D&D" players - White Wolfs
> "Vampire" seems so much more fitting for the black trenchcoat crowd :)

In Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner writes of a phenomenon known as
"mucking", in which a mucker goes amok and starts killing everyone
around.  It happens all the time.  It's caused by becoming too stressed
out by the overcrowding and other tensions of life in his vision of the
late 20th century.  In the Littleton and other recent cases, the
shooters have been middle-class suburban kids, but life in suburbs,
cars, and shopping malls could contribute to someone's going round the
bend.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:30:10 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: GT Tech Level 9

After mucking around trying to design modules at GTL9, I'm coming to the
conclusion that we need to make some rules mods if GURPS Traveller it to
accurately mirror Traveller's "Early Stellar" tech levels (ie. TL9-11).

Assuming my calculations aren't totally out-of-whack, when I compared GTL9
to GTL 10, I discovered that at GTL9:

i) fusion power is 5 times heavier and 20 times more expensive
ii) thrusters are 4 time heavier and 40 times more expensive
iii) engineering crews are almost 10 times larger

There are other differences, but these are the most significant.

Now, this might apply for TL9, but there simply isn't that
order-of-magnitude difference between TL11 and TL12 (GTL10 = TL12, GTL9 =
TL9-11 according to the GT rulebook).

I think the best solution would be to split the GTL9 systems into three
catagories (early, middle, late) that gradually change, so that late GTL9
worlds (such as most of the Sword Worlds, which are TL11) aren't crippled
in space.

Any thoughts?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:30:52 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT

In a message dated 4/20/99 7:52:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shimmer@mhtc.net 
writes:

<< I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
 everyones thought are on GT.
 
  >>
I love it and more importantly my player group is in love with it. I've 
played Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and Traveller T4, all were good but 
none have got the player remarks about satisfaction that the GURPS Traveller 
has gotten from my group. Its simple to use rules harken back to Classic 
Traveller's earliest days, without sacrificing the rich detail that the later 
versions have. What can I say? We are also happy with the source books that 
have been released and the topical areas being explained in greater detail in 
the books. 

Good buy, what else can be said? 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:45:37 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: FFW Fleet Admirals for Fleet Ops

>I have Fifth Frontier War, I'd not thought to check it for comparative
>admirals. A small sample, but I'll bet these were the among the most
>senior admirals for each navy at the time.

Actually, I'd rate the "average" admiral as having a plotting factor of 5
(4 for Zhodani), with tactics 0. Ie. the default fleet includes an average
admiral. The counters represent the exceptional ones.

>I think I'd place more weight on the Tactical bonus than I would on the
>Plot bonus. I see Fleet Tactics as a combat skill, how to fight a fleet
>(as Ship Tactics is how to effectively fight a ship) rather than how to
>fight a Navy. I believe the grand strategy decisions - which star system to
>send the fleets to - would be more abstract. This grand strategy capability
>may make up a portion of the Admiral's Fleet Tactics skill, but I think what
>he can do inside a system would be the lion's share of the skill.

I'd rate Fleet Tactics as wholly the tactical bonus. Strategy would be some
other skill (what, I don't know).


Looking at the above, I see that I haven't answered the question, just
stated that IMO Fifth Frontier War's basic system is normalized around the
average admiral, so that exceptional ones get bonuses (or penalties).

Now, I do dimly recall seeing a character writeup of Norris somewhere. If
it was a canon source you could compare his Fleet Tactics skill to his
counter in FFW and get an idea that way...

Alternately, you could look at how much benefit a +1 tactics gives in FFW,
and cost the Fleet Tactics skill accordingly.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:11:13 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

>As for personal legal papers, I would think your "passport" would be much
>like that of today.  You may have a concealed permit but is it valid for
>THIS planet?  I would also suspect that worlds closer together i.e. same
>subsector or sector would be more inclined to respects the other's laws then
>further away.

We're talking about different kinds of law here. Some contracts are between
the individual and the government, like a concealed weapons permit. In that
case, the permit is valid only within the jurisdiction of that government.
Now, some other governments with concealed weapons permits MIGHT grant an
equivalent to someone as a courtesy, e.g. to law enforcement officials.

On the other hand, marriage is a contract between two people, the government
being simply the registrar in this case. So a marriage in jurisdiction A would
more often than not be recognized in jurisdiction B. If two people from Sweden
get married, then later emigrate to Canada, they're still married. Of only
one of the couple moves to Canada, and later marries a Canadian while having
not divorced the Swedish spouse, a case can be made for bigamy.

Back to the intent of the original question, regarding registration of vital
statistics such as marriage. I've seen multiple references to a personal ID
card which is recognized throughout the Imperium. Not all Imperial citizens
have one -- Farmer Fred on a low-tech agricultural world who has never been
more than 50 miles from his farm would likely not have one. But anyone who
travels into space would have one, and it might even be a requirement to 
have one in order to clear Imperial customs. Such an ID card would be like
a contemporary Earth passport, except it would record a LOT more information
about the cardholder (marital status, occupation, retinal scans, DNA tags,
shoe size, etc.). So if a person is married and has a Universal ID Card, then
the marriage would be recorded on the card.

Now, in the case of Planet Polygamy allowing someone to have multiple spouses,
then the law of one's registered planet of residence would take precedence.
A man on Polygamy could have three wives, but if he moved to Planet Zorg
(which
does not recognize multiple-party marriages), they would likely recognize only
one of the marriages...  (Some Muslim states allow men to have up to four
wives
here and now today on Earth... if a guy with three wives moves to the US, what
does he do about the extra wives? Same situation as above...)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #486
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 487



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: White Globes
Re: SCRAM 
Extraterritoriality (long)
Re: basic Traveller Starter kit
Knock-on effects of introducing drop tanks
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: basic Traveller Starter kit 
Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill 
Wiccans in Space
T4 PBEM? 
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Legal Records
Re: Legal Records
Re: "Refined" and "Unrefined" Hydrogen
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:21:24 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: White Globes

From: jcarlino <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: White Globes


>GURPS Traveller mentions "White Globes" as well as black globes. I don't
>remember these devices and haven't been able to find any Library Data
>entries on them. Are they from an obscure Adventure pack, or am I just more
>ignorant than usual?


    Check MegaTraveller.

>Terry C.


Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:07:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> 
> 
> On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:42:10 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
> <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
> >move around a bit.  IN fact, IMTU, part of the yearly maintanance 
> >routine is 
> >relining the reactor so it can withstand another year of operation 
> >without 
> >burning through.  <CATN guys, you paying attention to this????>
> >
> >Keven
> 
> 
> Hmmmm, somehow this sounds mighty familiar.  8^)

Oh, really?  BTW, I was doing some checking in my archives and found a 
*COUPLE* of old messages from CATN that described the crash.  <grin>
 
Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:30:13 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Extraterritoriality (long)

Dear Folks -

Here is the text of an essay on extrality I wrote back in the late 80's.
Would anyone (especially our resident lawyers and economic experts) like to
comment?

Extraterritoriality

Starports within the Imperium are considered extraterritorial; that is,
they are considered part of Imperial territory and not part of their
homeworld. This allows standardisation of procedures, and allows the SPA to
function Imperium-wide. This different status of starports means that new
laws must be made regarding their control and operations.

Starport Acquisition

Most starports are originally built by their homeworld to facilitate
interstellar operations. There may even be multiple starports and
spaceports on a world. When applying for Imperial membership, one of the
standard allegiance clauses is to provide the Imperium with a starport.
When the world signs the allegiance document, it gives the selected
starport (and such adjacent lands as agreed upon) to the Imperium as an
indefinite lease, coupled with a declaration of extrality. The Imperium now
controls the starport's operations, personnel, regulations, finances, and
so forth, and the world no longer has jurisdiction over the area.

There is a chance for an Imperial world to retain ownership of one or more
ports. These will usually be of lower grade than the Imperial starport, and
the world may  be an Amber Travel Zone. One possibility is where a
Balkanised world has one or more countries as Imperial member-states, but
has others that are not.

High population worlds may even have more than one starport under Imperial
control. Terra, with three starports, is a prime example of this
arrangement.

Finally, private ports may be present, but only billionaires are generally
able to afford such things.

The Imperium may commandeer any and all ports in emergencies, whether
starport or spaceport, public or private.

Laws Within Starports

Imperial Law applies with Imperial starports. The Law Level is normally set
at 1, thus banning the less detectable, more destructive, and insidious
forms of weaponry. Naturally, such devices may still be stored aboard ship,
internal ship security being the prerogative of the ship's captain - at
least as far as the law goes. All starship-grade weaponry is allowed, up to
but not including nuclear missiles, which the Imperium alone retains the
right to possess.

Imperial Law is fairly general, as it must be to cover so many different
cultures. However, some basics are retained to prevent the breakdown of law
and order in society. Murder is a crime, as are most forms of violence upon
the person. Dangerous activities are also curtailed, such as dangerous
driving or flying, discharging weapons in public, and so on. The referee
should use common-sense in framing regulations that exists within
starports, often with the local culture and environment having major
effects.

Legal aid may be found at Type C starports and above, at least for local
matters. Interplanetary lawyers (Legal-4) will be rarer, but there will be
at least one at all Type A and B starports. Lower quality starports may
need to send away for legal aid, which may take quite a few weeks! Until
then, people will either be held in custody (criminal cases) or have exit
visas withheld (civil cases). The Port Director has final authority over
this. The referee should determine the actions taken by the authorities.

Financial Matters

Businesses located within the extrality line of the starport do not pay
planetary tax, even if this is their homeworld. Instead, they pay tax to
the Imperium, which sets the tax rate 5% higher than the homeworld to
prevent the starport from being a tax haven. In any case, the buildings and
land are operated as though owned by the Imperium. Firms must lease their
land and buildings from the starport, and pay for items such as water and
sewerage rates, power supply charges, and so on. Under a special agreement,
TAS hostels are exempt from paying a lease, but must still pay the other
costs.

Starport revenue comes from such things as land and building leases,
landing fees, fuel costs, consumables replacement fees, ship maintenance
charges, possible exit taxes, and so on. The revenue thus obtained is used
to pay SPA employees, maintain the existing starport, and upgrade the port
facilities. The Imperium pays 70% of the starport's excess revenue (if any)
to the homeworld to cover the lease. The remaining 30% profit is paid into
the Imperial Starport Fund, administered by the SPA with ties to the
Contact and Liaison Branch of the IISS. The SPA Executive and individual
starports may petition the fund for project monies. Additionally, the ISF
is used to build new starports, repair damaged ports, acquire new land, and
so on. The ISF is run on a sector-wide scale, with monies from the sector
channelled back into the sector.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:39:39 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: basic Traveller Starter kit

The house rule for clothes in a Traveller campaign I played in was that
each chareter had SOC squared pieces of clothing of a style appropriate
to that SOC for free and had to pay for the rest. So if you are SOC 2
you might have 1 set of dirty coveralls, 1 set of cheap work shoes, 1
set of old underwear and 1 logo T shirt or baseball hat.  If you were
SOC 12 you would have 144 different pieces of clothing.  [These all had
to take up less space than the Middle Passage baggage allotment to
represent how you had ben able to haul them around with you so far.]

This rule seemed to work well and was a lot more realistic than the I am
38 years old and I have 1 set of clothes and a really big gun to my name
PC's that some people like to play.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:55:59 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Knock-on effects of introducing drop tanks

It has been noted that there will be a transition period as drop tank
infrastructure begins to spread throughout the Imperium.

Even if this infrastructure only affects the major trade routes, there will
be knock-on effects as internal-fuel freighters are forced lower down the
'food chain' and financial effects as banks get worried about the lower
valuations of internal-fuel freighters that mortgages are based on (if drop
tanks are 20% more efficient, then the current valuation of established
internal-fuel ships should fall by about this. Bad news if they have a
mortgage to 90% of their old valuation ...).

In short, the revolution in transport implied by drop tanks is going to
effect all worlds indirectly, even if it only affects some worlds directly.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:56:52 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> wrote

> >Do not forget the Frisbee

> Just be careful when using it in the presence of Vargr, lest they
> try to run after it and catch it in their teeth...  :)
> (Sorry, couldn't resist

My charecter with the Frisbee never could get the Vargr in the party
interested in playing.  Since he was an Imperial Marine officer with 
STR C [in TNE] and Infighting 5 or 6 [2 or 3 in other rules]  she did
not want to push the issue

Lines from that game to the player

Other players "Sid wake up, We are being attacked by the Zhodani.  There
is a teleport commando in the ductwork with you"

"I will Psionically Assault him."

GM: "Sorry you are out of Psi points."

"Then, I will shoot them."

GM: "Sorry you are out of bullets."

"I will claw him."

GM "Sid you are in the ductwork, you do not have enough room to claw
him."

"OK I will bite him."

GM "OK, he is fireing back with his PGMP."

Five rounds later the Zhodani is dead & Rukh (the Vargr) is still alive
and not even critically wounded after taking 3 or 4 PGMP shots from less
than 1 meter.

Rant: Charecters is TNE have way too many hit points, especially when
they are STR D and END A.  Even though the Ref was using d10's for
dammage instead of d6's Rukh was OK.  He needed 6 months to regrow the
burned off fur, but he was OK.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:13:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: basic Traveller Starter kit 

> The house rule for clothes in a Traveller campaign I played in was that
> each chareter had SOC squared pieces of clothing of a style appropriate
> to that SOC for free and had to pay for the rest. So if you are SOC 2
> you might have 1 set of dirty coveralls, 1 set of cheap work shoes, 1
> set of old underwear and 1 logo T shirt or baseball hat.  If you were
> SOC 12 you would have 144 different pieces of clothing.  [These all had
> to take up less space than the Middle Passage baggage allotment to
> represent how you had ben able to haul them around with you so far.]
> 
> This rule seemed to work well and was a lot more realistic than the I am
> 38 years old and I have 1 set of clothes and a really big gun to my name
> PC's that some people like to play.

I've always ran with 1 week's worth of clothes for my character, plus a vacc 
suit, weapons, and other misc gear they might need, depending on what they 
did.  The clothes, boots, etc were carried in a duffel as to be more easily 
stuffed in tight quarters like a starship barracks room.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:20:07 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Average Fleet Tactics skill 

If you want to see what the average Fleet Tactics skill for the Admirals
in various navies why don't you do a statistical analysis of the
expected levels that typical admirals will have when their charecters
are generated using High Guard advanced Naval charecter generation from
the appropriate CT Alien modules.  Except for the Sword Worlds you
should be able to get data for all the races/governments being
discussed.

You may also want to make it clear that you are discusssing Line branch
officers, Medical and Engineering branch officers, for example, will
have less (possibly no) skill.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:45:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Wiccans in Space

"Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net> wrote:

> ObTrav: Anyone ever use Wicans/Witches in their Traveller games? It'd be a
> way cool planetary society to cook up for the players to visit a wiccan
> dominated society, perhaps decended from wiccan colonists fleeing from the
> society that so misunderstands their beliefs.

Check out _Conflict of Honors_ by Steve Miller & Sharon Lee for a main
character serving on a merchant ship who is from a Wiccan-derived planet. 
The books has a *very* Traveller feel. 

It's also the 2nd in a series:

Agent of Change ISBN 0-345-34828-1
Conflict of Honors ISBN 0-345-35353-6
Carpe Diem ISBN 0-345-36310-8

All are much fun.

Also, there's a character from a Wiccan-like space colony in John Varley's
book _Wizard_ (sequel to _Titan_).  Not Varley's best by far, but
non-horrible. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com  
 3rd degree Wiccan Priest

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:58:41 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: T4 PBEM? 

Hey would anyone be interested in a Milieu 0 strategic pbem campaign set in 
the first years of the Imperium? I tried to launch a pbem online two weeks 
ago set in the Spinward Marches with initial interest shown which has since 
waned considerabley. Since we really have not invested too much time in it I 
was curious if a venue change would recharge the project. Additionally at 
this point I am willing to shift from a GURPS TRAVELLER rules orientation to 
the Traveller T4/Classic Traveller format....comments please. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:40:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

>> Or just cut the containment field. The actual *mass* of plasma involved
>> is low enough that the reactor vessel won't do more than get warm. 
>
> Not a good idea, I think.  Shipboard reactors have a *big*
> containment vessel, and the reaction itself is on the order of tens
> of *MILLIONS* of degrees.  It takes a lotta fuel to crank out that
> 250 *MEGAWATTS* of power you need just to move around a bit.

The plasma inside a neon light tube may be at a million degrees. It's
just *thin* as all get out. The total *heat* content is virtually nil.

To generate 250 MW requires fusing a mere 2.7 *micrograms* of hydrogen
per second. At *one hundred* million degrees, that wouldn't have enough
heat energy to melt an ice cube. Not even if only 1 in a million atoms
fuses (ie there would be 2.7 grams of hydrogen in there).

That's what folks don't realize. Just *how* little fuel it takes to
generate a lot of power.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:48:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> Perceval Lowry wrote:
>
>>A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
>>introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
>>early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
>>reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
>>safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
>>of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
> case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
> presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.

Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:52:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

In mail you write:

> << Anyway, the important thing for Jump drives is Volume.  If you can
> convert water to hydrogen 50% more efficiently and not have to worry
> about cryo-containment, so much the better >>
>
> Yepp. I agree...
>
> <<If you use the all at once jumpdrive theory, then you gotta crack out
> all you'll need for the jump before initiating it.  If you use the slow
> burn over the course of a week, then you can crack water as you go.>>
>
> But don't forget: The cracking process takes many hours(interesting
> only for theory one). And if cracking on-board you won't gain any
> volume. You still have to store the hydrogen gained from the
> electrolysys, thus you would end up with at least the same volume. But
> I see that if one does not need all H2 before initiating jump you could
> indeed use h2o. Which proves this theory wrong for my part.

Actually, as long as the fusion reactor uses a "hot fusion" type
reaction, you can "crack" water, methane or ammonia fairly easily. But
water and ammonia (NH3) would be preferred.

You see, at well *below* fusion temps, *all* of those compounds break
down into individual ions in a plasma. With a bit of extra electric and
magnetic field work, you can seperate out the hydrogen easily. 

Water and ammonia are preferred because you can just dump the oxygen or
nitrogen. With methane, you tend to get carbon deposits built up. BTW,
if the right type of "seed" crystal is available, it'll deposit as
diamond! 

And don't forget that nitrogen is *only* cheap on worlds with decent
atmospheres. Everywhere else, it's one of the more expensive life
support chemicals.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:00:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Legal Records

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>
>> One of the requirements for entry into the Imperium, IMO, would be the
>> recognition of contracts made on other Imperial worlds.  While this is not
>> explicitly stated, it can be inferred that this is the case due to the
>> level of trade and other financial interests that not only span a few
>> worlds, but also the entire Imperium.
>
> But this isn't always possible. In the example I gave (a planet that
> allows polygamy and another that does not), there are contracts that can
> be made on world A that could not be made (and would not be valid) on
> world B. Such a case would be a polygamous marriage contract, which would
> be impossible to recognize on a world where such marriages were not
> permitted.

Actually, this situation exists in the US. We recognize polygamous
marraiges of *visitors*. If you are a Moslem with 4 wives (the maximum
allowed by the Koran), you can visit the US, and they *are* your wives.
But if you apply for citizenship you have to divorce all but one of
them. I'm not sure what happens if you apply for "resident alien"
status. There's also the interesting question of what happens if a
vistor gets into some legal tangle that involves marital status.

So I wouldn't be so quick to say that a polygamous marriage can't be
recognized by a non-polygamous society. 

> I have to say that I believe that trade is the only thing the Imperium
> really regulates. If World A wants to tell you your marriage is invalid,
> that's their perogative.

True enough. Though I'd expect that in the normal course of things,
it'd take moderately weird circumstances for a world to try to enforce
something like that on non-residents.

> In the real world, is a marriage conducted in Iraq valid under US law?
> Would it be permisable for a person married in Iraq to get married to a
> woman in the US without divorcing his previous Iraqi wife? (I chose Iraq
> because it seems unlikely that the US has any kind of reciprocal contract
> recognition agreement with them).

As I said, I'm certain that *pre-existing* marriages are recognized.
There have been far too many cases of various rich/important Arabs
visiting the US and other countries. 

Adding a new wife while here would be a different matter, as then *our*
laws get involved. But if the new wife went back to wherever and got
married *there*, then we'd probably accept the situation. At least as
long as they were merely vistors. 

The bit about having to divorce all but one wife to become a citizen is
something I recall from some articles I read a long time back. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:11:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Legal Records

In mail you write:

> True but was it Hawaii or California I believe passed a law to recognize
> same sex marriages but they are not recognized outside that state.

And Congresss had to pass a law specifically stating that such
marriages need not be recognized. If they hadn't, then the other states
would have had *no* choice in the matter.

There's also some arguments to the effect that Congress doesn't haver
the authority to pass such a law. That it'd take a Constitutional
amendment. At some point, someone will get married in Hawaii and move
to another state and then file suit when their marriage isn't
recognized. And even then, we won't *really* know until and unless we
can get two *different* federal circuit courts to hand down conflicting
decisions (that's the *only* way to *force* the Supreme Court to make a
decision on something).

BTW, for what it's worth, there are a *lot* of laws in that position.
They are of questionable Constitutionality, but the Supreme Court wants
no part of the mess that would ensue from ruling *either* way. So we
struggle along, with advocates trying to find good test cases...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:21:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Refined" and "Unrefined" Hydrogen

In mail you write:

>>Hydrogen *does* have its own special problems. There are *two* type of
>>hydrogen molecule. Ortho and para. In one, the spins of the atoms point
>>the same direction. In the other they point in opposite directions. 
>>
>>There's a noticeable energy difference between the two types. Switching
>>in one direction releases energy, switching in the other requires
>>energy. So eventually, all of the hydrogen will wind up in the lower
>>energy form. But the energy released by the transitions is enough to
>>*boil* LH2. So to be able to store LH2 without most of it boiling away,
>>you have to convert it all to the low energy state. Luckily, catalysts
>>have been found that will trigger the change. So you just run the LH2
>>across the catalyst and collect the gas that gets given off. The gas
>>gets re-liquefied, the liquid that's been thru the catalyst goes into
>>storage. 
>
> Leonard, you have just solved one of the Great Mysteries of Traveller for
> me. I have never been able to figure out what the difference between
> refined and unrefined fuel could be. Any idiot can set up an electrolysis
> rig to process hydrogen from water or methane, and (since the density of
> stored fuel is always the same) only LH2 is ever stored in the tanks. This
> tidbit gives me reason to think that the catalyst process is the difference.

It's also been hypothesized that the hydrogen has been "filtered"
isotopically. For example, for some types of reaction you'd want to
remove all the tritium, as it'd cause *way* too many stray neutrons.
For others, you'd want mostly deuterium and tritium, no "protium" (H1).

> All IMTU, of course -- I don't think that canon would support it (but I'll
> look).
>
> Can you point me to a reference for the catalyst process, and/or any other
> differences in the physical properties of the two types?

Well, I read it in an arcticle back in the 60s. "The Bugs That Live at
- -253 C" in an old Analog. It was about the troubles NASA had in
learning to store and use LH2 in large quantities. 

I don't recall the actual catalyst, except that it may have been
something as silly as jewler's rouge! I *think* they passed the LH2
thru a porous block of "whatever". 

And the *only* difference between an ortho-hydrogen molecule and a
parahydrogen molecule is the alignment of the spin of the individual
atoms. For various quantum mechanical reasons this results in the two
kinds having different energy states. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:37:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

> What'll happen is that all of the "odd-non white bread" students will
> be more ostracised, and suspected of being psychopaths. I suspect
> that everybody on this list were considered part of the "not-in"
> crowd in high school, yet we turned out OK....Of course we'll be
> blamed instead of the parents....

Frankly, I figure that the *fact* that they were ostracized played a
big part in their going psycho. I heard one TV commentator making some
comment about "Without guns we'd just get a fist fight". He obviously
has never been one of the "outsiders". Because the "underclass" type
kids *don't* get into fights. For two reasons. First, they always
*lose*. Especially against "jocks". Second, *they* will be the ones who
get into trouble, not the "normal" kids. 

I *hate* that damned attitude that says that "fights" are ok, or that
they should be acceptable. The stresses that *used* to lead to fights
are *not* a symptom. They are part of the *problem*!

<sigh>

Never mind. I just keep thinking that if I'd not decided *against*
suicide in High school, I might have been tempted to try taking a jerk
or two with me...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:42:57 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

From:           	shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date sent:      	Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:37:22 PST

>In mail you write:

>Frankly, I figure that the *fact* that they were ostracized played a
>big part in their going psycho. I heard one TV commentator making some
>comment about "Without guns we'd just get a fist fight". He obviously
>has never been one of the "outsiders". Because the "underclass" type
>kids *don't* get into fights. For two reasons. First, they always
>*lose*. Especially against "jocks". Second, *they* will be the ones who
>get into trouble, not the "normal" kids. 

Funny, when I heard about it in the news, my first thought was sadness
for the two shooters. Anger and frustration born of powerlessness. In RL
I work with sexual offenders, most of whom were 'outsiders' in their
youth. One thing I've learnt is that most "monsters/psychos" are made
not born. But then again its so much easier to believe in monsters than
it is to face up to the reality that we create such people.

ObTrav: Its this impotence and frustration that are the prime motivation
of most terrorists and classic "bad guys".


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:54:37 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

At 13:12 21/04/1999 EDT, SunTsi@aol.com wrote:
>
><< Anyway, the important thing for Jump drives is Volume.
>   If you can convert water to hydrogen 50% more efficiently and
>   not have to worry about cryo-containment, so much the better >>
>Yepp. I agree...
>
><< If you use the all at once jumpdrive theory, then you gotta crack
>   out all you'll need for the jump before initiating it.  If you use
>   the slow burn over the course of a week, then you can crack water
>   as you go.>>
>
>But dont forget: The cracking process takes many hours(interesting only for 
>theory one). And if cracking on-board you wont gain any volume. You still 
>have to store the hydrogen gained from the electrolysys, thus you would end 
>up with at least the same
>volume. But I see that if one does not need all H2 before initiating jump
you 
>could indeed use h2o. Which proves this theory wrong for my part.
>
>If the H2 would be burnt up during the week in jump ,there is no reason
> for a ship to rely on LH2 for fuel.
>
>They do, which implies they use it all up BEFORE jumping.
>
What about fleet tankers?
They could probably live with the extra mass penalty (not needing
manoeuvre 6) and would certainly benefit from carrying more fuel.

If you use the fuel up all in one go, then you have the whole week
in jump to refine the reserve tank into hydrogen

==

As an aside, the players in my current campaign are using a modular
ship (see deckplans).

They separated one of the modules before misjumping.
(The one with  their bosses and all the nobles and media crews on <sniff>)

I had set up a situation where they needed 2 jump-2 with only j-3 fuel
tankage. Their solution was to get a TL-9 world to make a fuel tank
to replace the missing module. It's not a proper fuel tank, just a
large bolt on cylinder of water. It can't be used directly but after
the first J-2, they will pump the water into a proper fuel tank and
refine it, before jumping again.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #487
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 488



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT
Re: SCRAM
Re: GT
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Andrew's First Contact Data
re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: GT Tech Level 9
re: OT RPG Paranoia
Re: Wiccans in Space
Classic Traveller for auction
Re: SCRAM 
Re: SCRAM 
Re: "Refined" and "Unrefined" Hydrogen 
Re: White Globes
Re: SCRAM
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
test ping
Tolkien's Lord of Rings
test ping- ignore me
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:06:55 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT

I'm a GURPS fan in general...I was overjoyed to see that SJG had the 
license...All the products are great..I'm looking forward to First In 
for my Scout campaign....My group are not as big as GURPS fans as 
me...but they turned around!
One thing that is good for me is that you can use the wealth of 
sourcebooks made for GURPS..Wiccans in Space??? No problem with GURPS 
materials! 

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:48:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Howdy!

Leonard wrote:
> Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
> Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
> at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction. 
> 
Hunt for Red October. An Alfa suffers a catastrophic loss of coolant
event under full power. The reactor goes dry in an instant, stopping 
the reaction (the water moderates the neutrons allowing them to do
their work). However, residual heat is sufficient to slag down the
core. The operator admits cold seawater, which moderates the heat.
However, it also moderates the neutrons so well that the nuclear
reaction begins again. Hobson's choice... Oh, they are unable to
sCRAM the reactor, as well. The remainder of the scenario is short
and exciting.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:04:50 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: GT

Date sent:      	Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:42:08 -0500
From:           	Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>

>I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
>everyones thought are on GT.

Overall it an excellant product. The line started off with a few _minor_
problems with production quality, but these seem to have been ironed
out (and they pale into insignificance when compared with IG's output)
and the 2nd printing should deal with them. I don't like the GURPS
system (just a matter of personal taste, I'm a T4/T5 kind of guy), but
they are excellant source material for all flavours of Traveller. I'd give
GT a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:37:08 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

If you're talking rulership, although it could be concidered rare, there are 
well documented female rulers (Queens) in the celtic world.  So it could be 
said that celts would turn matriarcal when the need arose or when it was the 
best choice.  Queen Maeve and Boudicia are the two that spring right to mind 
though there were more.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:28:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Andrew's First Contact Data

My apologies, Friends,

While discussing Skyron on Monday and Tuesday, I recited information 
from Andrew M-V's Prometheus Rising sector data for the Solomani Rim 
circa 2096.  Someone, I forget who, asked as to the canonicity of 
that data.  I was out from work yesterday, and now am able to answer 
that question.

According to Andrew's Galactic file on the Interstellar War period, 
from which this data is taken, the First Contact Data is taken from 
the Solomani Rim sector data, and the UWPs were regressed back to 
Milieu 0 by Harold Hale for his work on Unbroken Pride: the Solomani 
Rim at Milieu 0.  Then Andrew regressed the data one more time, back 
to the time period of the Interstellar Wars.  The physical and 
stellar data are, indeed, canon.  The social data has been regressed 
back, and works as well for me as anything else.

So far, out of the Interstellar Wars data released with Galactic 2.4, 
I've only noticed one inconsistency with canon, and the presence of 
several minor race homeworlds besides the Vegans.  The only canon 
minor races listed in canon sources that are native to the Solomani 
Rim are the Vegans and the Chips.  The inclusion of the homeworlds 
does not violate canon, nor does it have support from canon.  They 
just haven't been discussed.

Oh, and the one inconsistency with canon is that, in the 2096AD data 
set, I believe Galactic displays that Prometheus is also part of the 
Terran Confederation (which actually doesn't start until 2120, per 
most sources, but he's using the allegiance code for consistency's 
sake for the rest of the IntWars data.)  Canon is rather specific
that Barnard's Star was the first site of Terran expansion beyond her 
own solar system.  Probably an oversite during the clean up of his 
personal campaign data, before exporting the galaxy he had created 
for inclusion in Galactic 2.4.

All in all, very well done, and good enough for me to use it as the 
basis for my own First Contact campaign.  (And it's finally underway! 
 First session last night went great, overall.  :)

Thanks,
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:26:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill

Peter Newman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you want to see what the average Fleet Tactics skill for the Admirals
in various navies why don't you do a statistical analysis of the
expected levels that typical admirals will have when their charecters
are generated using High Guard advanced Naval charecter generation from
the appropriate CT Alien modules.  Except for the Sword Worlds you
should be able to get data for all the races/governments being
discussed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That project would take longer than writing the rest of the rules. I'm not into 
generating enough Naval characters to get 100 3I Admirals, 100 Zhodani 
Admiral-equivalents, 100 Solomani Admirals, etc. What do I need,
1000 tries at each Navy to get enough Admirals for analysis?

Especially since with every character rolled that makes Admiral I can
probably make decisions that will give him Fleet Tactics-8 (if that's what
I'm shooting for). Every skill he has will be from a table that could have
given Fleet Tactics - that's why I rolled on that table - but he'll be pretty
one-dimensional.

The general educated guesses are fine for now. If someone wants to
do a detailed study, the numbers can easily be popped into the game.
However, I doubt this kind of outcome was intended by most of the
character generation sequences - they were designed to make characters
for play, the sequence won't necessarily reflect the historical capabilities
of a race's Naval High Command.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:08:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 02:37 AM 4/22/99 PST, you wrote:

>I *hate* that damned attitude that says that "fights" are ok, or that
>they should be acceptable. The stresses that *used* to lead to fights
>are *not* a symptom. They are part of the *problem*!

Actually I've read some theories that fighting among grade school kids is
an important part of the socialization process, and should be allowed.  It
allows the social order to be shaken up as kids grow, and gives the kids at
the bottom of the pecking order an outlet for their frustrations.  By high
school, most people have ceased needing this outlet, and can socialize on a
more mature level.

ObTrav: How do the various alien races learn social skills?  How do they
deal with human children, who are at best animals who have learned to wear
clothing?
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:17:25 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT Tech Level 9

> After mucking around trying to design modules at GTL9, I'm coming to the
> conclusion that we need to make some rules mods if GURPS Traveller it to
> accurately mirror Traveller's "Early Stellar" tech levels (ie. TL9-11).

I, too, have noticed some problems.  Specifically, how can a GTL9 
world afford starships in the first place that are on par with another 
world of much greater TL (GTL10-11)?
 
> Any thoughts?

My solution, although more handwaving than anything else, has the 
benefit of being fast, easy to implement and stays in line with the 
rules presented in GT.  Keep in mind that these numbers are for 
worlds the produce the product ... not those who buy it from 
someone else:

GTL9 - Max Jump 2, Max Man 3
GTL10 - Max Jump 3, Max Man 6
GTL11 - Max Jump 4, Max Man 8
GTL12 - Max Jump 6, Max Man 10

I further break down GTL9 by saying if the world has a class A 
starport then they can produce Jump 2.  If they have a class B, then 
they can produce only Jump 1 (but only in limited quanitities and it 
takes a long time to produce them).  I know this breaks the rules 
somewhat on what starports can produce, but IMO, scrunching the 
TLs together (going from 15 to 12) breaks some of them anyway.

So, instead of saying, "This world is GTL9 so only produces GTL9 
stuff," we say, "This world is GTL9 and creates early GTL10 stuff."  
And early GTL10 would be the lower Jump and Man drives ratings.

As I am also running a GT:T4 campaign, this fits in nicely. The new 
Imperium is Jump 3 but most (dang near all) of the worlds they 
encounter have a maximum of Jump 2 (if they have jump at all).  
And, yes, some worlds will only have a maximum of Jump 1.

As I said ... lots of handwaving.  The players don't mind, though.  It 
makes it easy for them to figure out what a world's capabilities are 
without consulting me all the time.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:12:22 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: OT RPG Paranoia

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
ObTrav: How do the various alien races learn social skills?  How do they
deal with human children, who are at best animals who have learned to wear
clothing?
>>>>>>>>>>>
You've met alien children who behave better?  <G>

For some reason, I'm reminded of the RPG _Teenagers from Outer Space_.
Earth is discovered by aliens. They have the technology, we have the
diverse and somewhat bizarre youth culture. The aliens (or at least their
offspring) think we got the better deal. ;)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:48:07 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Wiccans in Space

"John R. Snead" wrote:

> Check out _Conflict of Honors_ by Steve Miller & Sharon Lee for a main
> character serving on a merchant ship who is from a Wiccan-derived planet.
> The books has a *very* Traveller feel.
>
> It's also the 2nd in a series:
>
> Agent of Change ISBN 0-345-34828-1
> Conflict of Honors ISBN 0-345-35353-6
> Carpe Diem ISBN 0-345-36310-8
>
> All are much fun.
>
> Also, there's a character from a Wiccan-like space colony in John Varley's
> book _Wizard_ (sequel to _Titan_).  Not Varley's best by far, but
> non-horrible.
>
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
>  3rd degree Wiccan Priest

Very interesting.  I will have to check to check them out.
- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:51:19 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Classic Traveller for auction

There's a guy on rec.games.board.marketplace running an auction, he's
got the original Traveller boxed set with High Guard, Chamax Plague/Horde,
Marooned/Marooned Alone,  and some other bits, minimum bid $25 with no 
current bids as of Noon Eastern Time 4/22/99. 

He's pretty responsive - I pointed out that Supplement 5
(Lightning Class Cruisers) ought to be in the copy of AHL he's selling,
not in the Traveller lot, or he ought to tell anyone bidding on AHL what
it was missing, he fixed it within the hour.

If anyone's interested - he's got Snapshot, AHL, and the Traveller Book
as well - do a search on "SPELL OF MY BROTHER'S AUCTION" on
usenet, or let me know and I'll forward a copy of his auction post.


Walt Smith
Spear-Carrier for the Great CT Revival

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:55:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> Or just cut the containment field. The actual *mass* of plasma involved
> >> is low enough that the reactor vessel won't do more than get warm. 
> >
> > Not a good idea, I think.  Shipboard reactors have a *big*
> > containment vessel, and the reaction itself is on the order of tens
> > of *MILLIONS* of degrees.  It takes a lotta fuel to crank out that
> > 250 *MEGAWATTS* of power you need just to move around a bit.
> 
> The plasma inside a neon light tube may be at a million degrees. It's
> just *thin* as all get out. The total *heat* content is virtually nil.

Neon lights don't work on plasma principles.  All we do is ionise the gas a 
bit.  If the temperature of the gas exceeds 1000 degrees C, I'd be surprised.

> To generate 250 MW requires fusing a mere 2.7 *micrograms* of hydrogen
> per second. At *one hundred* million degrees, that wouldn't have enough
> heat energy to melt an ice cube. Not even if only 1 in a million atoms
> fuses (ie there would be 2.7 grams of hydrogen in there).
> 
> That's what folks don't realize. Just *how* little fuel it takes to
> generate a lot of power.

True, but constant heat in the reaction vessel, plus stray neutrons impacting on the containment vessel wall (neutrons aren't affected much by magnetic fields) means that the walls *will* tend to crystalise over time, which is why IMTU relining the reactor is part of the yearly maintanance routine.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:59:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Perceval Lowry wrote:
> >
> >>A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
> >>introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
> >>early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
> >>reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
> >>safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
> >>of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
> >                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
> > case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
> > presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.
> 
> Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
> Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
> at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction. 

Clancy spins an interesting tale, but his military theory is sometimes weak.  So's his scientific theory.  Now if you'd referenced something like Scientific American or some longhaired math pulled from a theoretical physics publication, I'd buy it.  But Clancy?  A nice read, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on his theories.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:07:03 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "Refined" and "Unrefined" Hydrogen 

> In mail you write:
> 
> >>Hydrogen *does* have its own special problems. There are *two* type of
> >>hydrogen molecule. Ortho and para. In one, the spins of the atoms point
> >>the same direction. In the other they point in opposite directions. 
> >>
> >>There's a noticeable energy difference between the two types. Switching
> >>in one direction releases energy, switching in the other requires
> >>energy. So eventually, all of the hydrogen will wind up in the lower
> >>energy form. But the energy released by the transitions is enough to
> >>*boil* LH2. So to be able to store LH2 without most of it boiling away,
> >>you have to convert it all to the low energy state. Luckily, catalysts
> >>have been found that will trigger the change. So you just run the LH2
> >>across the catalyst and collect the gas that gets given off. The gas
> >>gets re-liquefied, the liquid that's been thru the catalyst goes into
> >>storage. 
> >
> > Leonard, you have just solved one of the Great Mysteries of Traveller for
> > me. I have never been able to figure out what the difference between
> > refined and unrefined fuel could be. Any idiot can set up an electrolysis
> > rig to process hydrogen from water or methane, and (since the density of
> > stored fuel is always the same) only LH2 is ever stored in the tanks. This
> > tidbit gives me reason to think that the catalyst process is the difference.
> 
> It's also been hypothesized that the hydrogen has been "filtered"
> isotopically. For example, for some types of reaction you'd want to
> remove all the tritium, as it'd cause *way* too many stray neutrons.
> For others, you'd want mostly deuterium and tritium, no "protium" (H1).

Depends on what kind of hydrogen the reactor was designed to use.  Joe's 
Missouri Archives has a paper on the CNO catalyst reactor, which is designed 
to use straight 'protium', and thus is the mainstay of fusion reactors IMTU.  
IMTU, most reactors have a small bottle of deuterium on the side to help with 
cold starts and to act kind of like nitrous oxide in a normal internal 
combustion engine.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:14:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: White Globes

Like Black Globes, but you can see and shoot out of them. Even higher
Ancient Tech than Black Globes.

jcarlino wrote:
> 
> GURPS Traveller mentions "White Globes" as well as black globes. I don't
> remember these devices and haven't been able to find any Library Data
> entries on them. Are they from an obscure Adventure pack, or am I just more
> ignorant than usual?
> 
> Terry C.
> 
> All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
> Not All Who Wander Are Lost

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:41:27 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Juliean Galak wrote:

>>Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
>>case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
>>presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.
>
>Yup, like I said, extreme emergency.... I got this info from one of the
>modern-war authors (Clancy, Brown, DiMercutio...) I don't remember which
>one...  As I said I'm not real sure about this, just something I read...

Well, a fair assessment is:

Clancy: Generally, accuracy is reasonable, but he gives too much
credence to `military urban legends'. He also has no military
background, being an accountant of some sorts.

Dale Brown: Must have spent too much time on pure oxygen whilst in SAC.
A stealthy B-52? Only if you take the engines off, for starters.
Rearward firing missiles? Present technical problems that have not yet
been overcome in the West. And (to keep this vaguely on topic), thinking
that a `Polar orbit' involves the satellite in question being stationary
over the North Pole?

DiMercutio: More unlike submarine Vs submarine ASW than anything else I
have ever read.
 

And, for the subject at hand:

A SCRAM involving the control rods is recoverable. Dumping seawater into
the reactor will wreck it permanently. 

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:19:45 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia


>It'll not only turn into a RPG witch-hunt, but a gun witch-hunt, and an
>internet witch hunt, and a reinactors witch hunt. As I'm a wargamer, RPGer,
>use the internet, own guns (and I lock them up!), and am a Civil War
>reinactor; it means dark times ahead, because two sets of wealthy parents
>decided they would rather spend time at the country club instead of
>supervising their children (admittedly a gross stereotype, but considering
>the reports of many students with cell phones and one of the perpetrators
>driving a BMW, not unreasonable...).

MSNBC has decided to go to war against German influences in pop-culture.
They cite an interest in the language as a warning sign that your kid might
in an orgy of violence. They attack "violent German industrial groups,"
hinting that their lyrics are racist. Yesterday, their big target was KMFDM.

Of course, it doesn't stop there. MSNBC has also claimed that an interests
in WWII history and wargames are warning signs as well. Fanning the flames,
now we're seeing that violent video-games (such as Doom) are indicators that
your child is going to go berzerk when you least expect it. Of course, every
news report on the tragedy points out that wearing black clothing is a sure
sign that there is something wrong with your child. Fortunately, I haven't
heard too much about Dungeons & Dragons or roleplaying games in general, but
I'm gritting my teeth for the onslaught.

So, why am I worried? In high school my friends and I all wore black
trenches. Nearly all of my friends took German. My older brother was a
wargaming grognard, instilling in me a love of hex and counter wargames, as
well as WWII history. I visited Germany as part of a student-exchange
program.  When I was there, I went to the "Go Bang!" music festival. One of
the bands I saw there was KMFDM. In the years between, I've met several of
the members of KMFDM and saw them play live many times. They are up there as
one of my favorite bands. Don't believe everything that you see or read,
their lyrics and ideology are anything *but* racist or Nazi. I can't deny
their lyrics are violent, but I'd hardly say that their lyrics incite their
listeners to violence. In the past, I've performed and produced some
"industrial" music of my own, which was released on an internationally
distributed compilation. Much of my wardrobe is nothing but a swath of
black. I play Doom, as well as a host of other videogames that the media is
on the verge of "discovering" to boost their ratings and take advantage of
this tragedy.

I am an adult now, and as a result I usually get to choose who I spend time
with. I'm in college, but the dynamic of college is undeniably different
than that of high school. I feel badly for everyone involved in the tragedy,
and my thoughts are with them. However, I also feel badly for the victims
who will be caught in the fallout of this tragedy. The kids in high school
now who are like my friends and I were. They wear black, take German, have
an interest in wargames and history, play videogames and listen to types of
music that most of the other kids at their school don't listen to. They are
already teased, tormented and beat up in school for extremely irrational
reasons. It can only get worse over the next couple of weeks until the
schools across the U.S. let their students out for the summer. Now, in
addition to being hated by their classmates for being different they will be
despised for being threatening, dangerous and downright evil.

It's a really sad situation all around, but I only fear that the media's
irresponsible coverage is going to make it worse. I know that this is way
off topic, and I apologize for that. I know that the "signal to grognard"
level here is high. As "informed sources" tell reporters with perfect hair
about how interest in "WWII and wargames" can be dangerous, there's going to
be alot of blanching. If the roleplaying angle is "discovered" by the media
(and dollars to donuts they will find AD&D books and Vampire books among the
"evidence"), there will be even more disgust and outrage here.

What hurts the most is that the real reasons for this horrible tragedy will
go undiscussed, while pop-psychology will reveal hidden messages in songs
that turned good boys bad. Instead of trying to discover how life at home
and at school contributed to the tragedy, they're going to point the finger
everywhere and anywhere that there happen to be media-friendly sound bites
and pop-psychologists decrying the "filth" that these kids had foisted upon
them by musicians and publishers whose only interest is the bottom line. For
every two kids who get pushed to the breaking point by the cruelty of their
classmates, there are literally thousands who put up with after-school
beatings, threats made in the cafeteria, and taunts written in black
permanent marker on their lockers. Very few talking heads on the television
will cite lack of attention by school faculty as a possible reason, even
fewer will cite the brutal xenophobia in American high schools.  Sorry about
the rambling, but this is something that (for obvious reasons) hits very
close to home for me. I don't think that there's ever an excuse for such a
tragedy, but only in understanding the real reasons will we stop them from
happening in the future.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:25:05 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: test ping

ping

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:00:11 +0200
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: Tolkien's Lord of Rings

> From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>
> Terry C.
>
> All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
> Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>

Good book, indeed, pitty i don't have it here with me to complete it...

- --
Guillem Plasencia
guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:28:25 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: test ping- ignore me

ping

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:28:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia



>Like Seth, sorry for the rant. I've been discussing it all day, same points
>over and over. Tomorrow I take in my D&D books to show the students that
>there isn't any "Gothic" stuff there. I still expect hassle from the admin
>about the gaming club my kids want to start, though.


Rob, I think the problem here isn't the amount of gothic stuff in AD&D
books, the problem is the shoddy definition of "gothic" in the press. As an
example, the ABCNews website gave a blurb about gothic culture and stated
that it draws influences from medieval European barbarism. Anyone who's had
even a fringe involvement in the gothic subculture would laugh at the
statement. However, bull is going to be shovelled by both sides in the
coming weeks. The lead singer from a popular gothic band, "Black Tape for a
Blue Girl" was on CNN yesterday, and she made the statement that "goths
don't wear trench coats." I laughed so hard that my sides hurt and my eyes
teared up. I spent more nights than I would care to recount at goth clubs,
and this simply isn't true. Misinformation. What works in traditional wars
works in the media war. Everybody's going to point their fingers and try to
distance themselves from being at ground zero when the lawsuits hit.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:36:30 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia


>Frankly, I figure that the *fact* that they were ostracized played a
>big part in their going psycho. I heard one TV commentator making some
>comment about "Without guns we'd just get a fist fight". He obviously
>has never been one of the "outsiders". Because the "underclass" type
>kids *don't* get into fights. For two reasons. First, they always
>*lose*. Especially against "jocks". Second, *they* will be the ones who
>get into trouble, not the "normal" kids.


I heard the same comment today, and I had the same reaction. To further
illustrate your second point, a high school friend of mine was frequently
harassed and threatened with beatings. He walked up to his locker one day
and saw a threat and several disparaging insults. Later on during the day,
he was called down to the disciplinarian who told him he better remove it by
the end of the day or he'd get in trouble.

>I *hate* that damned attitude that says that "fights" are ok, or that
>they should be acceptable. The stresses that *used* to lead to fights
>are *not* a symptom. They are part of the *problem*!


Amen, Leonard.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #488
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 489



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Travellers' Starter Kit 
Re: White Globes 
Time Capsule Fun
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Extraterritoriality (long)
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: SCRAM
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #481
[OT] Missing Addresses
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
[OT] Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Tolkien's Lord of Rings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:46:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit 

> GM "OK, he is fireing back with his PGMP."
> 
> Five rounds later the Zhodani is dead & Rukh (the Vargr) is still alive
> and not even critically wounded after taking 3 or 4 PGMP shots from less
> than 1 meter.

3 or 4 hits??  Even before Putting the Heat Back into Plasma, the 4.3cm TL-12 
plasma rifle has a DV of 9.  Using D6s you can get 108.  A quick kill (double 
damage version) is more than possible (almost certain, I'd say).  A Str 11, 
CON 11 has 66 points in the chest.  22 in the head.  After the "upgrade" to 
high energy weapons, the DV is 23.  Max (D6s) is 276.  Can you say "hot dog?" 
 :-)  Either way, after a couple hits.
 
> Rant: Charecters is TNE have way too many hit points, especially when
> they are STR D and END A.  Even though the Ref was using d10's for
> dammage instead of d6's Rukh was OK.  He needed 6 months to regrow the
> burned off fur, but he was OK.

W/ D10s, pre-PtHBiP max damage is 180.  After, max is 560!!!  This is w/ the 
weakest PGMP in the book.

STR and CON (there is no END) are equally important to hit capacity in TNE 
(except for the head).


Gary

p.s.  There are no psi points in TNE.  Plus, firing a PGMP in ductwork w/o 
enough room to even use ones claws isn't going to be fun because of 
'backwash' from splatter.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:46:58 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: White Globes 

> GURPS Traveller mentions "White Globes" as well as black globes. I don't
> remember these devices and haven't been able to find any Library Data
> entries on them. Are they from an obscure Adventure pack, or am I just more
> ignorant than usual?

They're in Megatraveller and TNE (FF&S), at least.  Not sure bout FFS2, nor 
where in CT.  

"The next step beyond the black globe, however, was the white globe, a 
unidirectional force field that allowed a ship to maneuver and fire while 
completely shielded from enemy fire.  Because the field is unidirectional, 
energy can pass freely out through the barrier, but this still poses 
difficulties for incoming communications and sensor data.  As a result, white 
globes are tuned to allowe certain narrow wavelengths of energy through.  
These are usually wavelengths which are not particularly useful for weaponry, 
particularly space based weaponry.  White globe-equipped ships thus tend to 
rely heavily on infared wavelength radiation for sensors and make extensive 
use of masers for tight beam commo."

"White globes have less problem with radiation energy, as the electron globe 
of the field can radiate energy outward as easily as it can absorb it (which 
is why it glows white while in use).  The energy is first cycled through the 
system's HPG bank, however and is then discharged back to an unengaged part 
of the electron cloud for transmission outward.  As a result, white globes 
are not limited in the total amount of energy they can absorb, but only in 
the volume of energy they can process in a given amount of time.  This is 
determined by the size of the HPG banks and engineers refer to this limit as 
the "traffic flow ceiling."

- -FF&S (mk1 mod 1, pg 59-60, GDW 1994)


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:54:14 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Time Capsule Fun

Thanks to one of the science/tech sites I browse, I've
run across a RealLife(tm)project for the launching and maintenance of a
"time capsule" satellite in earth orbit.
The capsule will remain in orbit 50,000 years
(supposedly), then return to Earth on its own.

The project allows, and is looking for, messages from
people all over the world to include as part of the
capsule's archive. If anyone wants a shot at having
their thoughts perused 50,000 years from now, check
out:  http://212.62.133.249/

It'd be pretty cool to have a Traveller reference
included in the archive.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:02:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

  FWIW, there seems to have been an almost deliberate blue-print for
what happened - the movie "Heathers" :>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:56:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality (long)

> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
 
> Here is the text of an essay on extrality I wrote back in the late 80's.
> Would anyone (especially our resident lawyers and economic experts) like to
> comment?

This is nice work.  I've only commented on the few items with which I
disagreed. (I'm a resident lawyer, but by no means an economics expert.)

> Starport Acquisition

> When the world signs the allegiance document, it gives the selected
> starport (and such adjacent lands as agreed upon) to the Imperium as an
> indefinite lease, coupled with a declaration of extrality. The Imperium now
> controls the starport's operations, personnel, regulations, finances, and
> so forth, and the world no longer has jurisdiction over the area.

I would think that the world would have to grant full title to the land
to the Imperium, not merely lease it.  A lease only makes sense if the
world and Imperium contemplate someday parting company.  Does the
Imperium allow secession?  I don't think so.  Permanent membership is
part of the political dynamic of the Imperium:  The world gets almost
total local control forever, as well as the benefits of interstellar
trade and Imperial defense.  The Imperium gets a starport, taxes, a
conscript pool, and another world that is never a security threat.
 
> Finally, private ports may be present, but only billionaires are generally
> able to afford such things.

Well, Joe the Farmer or Geni the Miner on their undeveloped worlds -- or
even undeveloped countries -- might clear some land and pave it and set
up a taco stand and have their own private class E starports for only a
small capital investment.  ("OK Billy, your papers are in order and
would you like some of our new special Cipatwean hot sauce with that
enchilada?")

SPA has authority over private ports as well as public.  All starports
have to follow the same safety, customs, and other procedures applicable
to their class.  
 
> The Imperium may commandeer any and all ports in emergencies, whether
> starport or spaceport, public or private.

Any starport comes under naval jurisdiction in time of war.  

> Laws Within Starports
> 
> Imperial Law applies with Imperial starports. The Law Level is normally set
> at 1, thus banning the less detectable, more destructive, and insidious
> forms of weaponry. Naturally, such devices may still be stored aboard ship,
> internal ship security being the prerogative of the ship's captain - at
> least as far as the law goes. All starship-grade weaponry is allowed, up to
> but not including nuclear missiles, which the Imperium alone retains the
> right to possess.

I generally agree, except that starships are allowed to have nuclear
missiles.  The Imperial Rules of War only prohibit the use of nuclear
weapons on member states.  The rationale is economic:  nuclear weapons
destroy the infrastructure on a large scale and have persistent and wide
area effects (i.e., radiation and fallout).  These are not problems in
space -- at most, ships will destroy each other, which is not a loss to
the Imperium on the scale of losing a city.  Therefore, the Imperium
allows ships to possess nuclear missiles for self-defense.  

So how to deal with starport security issues around nuclear missiles? 
There is no blanket solution.  The Imperium has low-threat areas like
the center and high-threat areas like the borders, especially the
Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim.  Local officials, in coordination
with Naval Intelligence and sector governments, have a lot of
discretion.  A starport may go so far as to require nuclear warheads to
be off-loaded and taken into custody before the ship is allowed to enter
the port.  Indeed, a port may require that all ship-mounted weapons be
disabled, and may set up a weapons scanning station at the airlock of
every ship (this tends to be standard on high ports everywhere).  On the
other hand, many ports may be in such a low-threat context that they
have hardly any security requirements.

> Imperial Law is fairly general, as it must be to cover so many different
> cultures. 

Imperial law as you're discussing it here applies only on or in Imperial
civilian installations (including starports; naval, military, and Scout
installations and vessels have their own regulations).  It's general
because (1) its only purpose is as you stated:

> However, some basics are retained to prevent the breakdown of law
> and order in society. 

but I would say, "to prevent the breakdown of law and order on or in
Imperial installations."  Societies are the member states; they have
their own standards of law and order, and the Imperium keeps its hands
off.  Imperal law is also general because (2) as you stated, it applies
to an enormous variety of sophonts who may be on Imperial installations.

> Murder is a crime, as are most forms of violence upon
> The referee
> should use common-sense in framing regulations that exists within
> starports, often with the local culture and environment having major
> effects.

No, I don't think the local culture and environment have anything to do
with the laws governing Imperial installations.  This body of Imperial
law always prohibits unjustified violence, interference with private and
public property, conduct that is unsafe to the actor or to others,
actions against the interest of the Imperium (espionage, etc.), and
slavery.  The Imperial officer in charge of the installation has some
discretion in interpreting the law.  The Imperium recognizes that not
all its citizens would consider all of these laws necessary or
appropriate, but the consensus is that they allow Imperial installations
to function properly, and are therefore obeyed and respected.

In addition, the starport and the host world will cooperate on matters
of smuggling, pursuit, extradition, and so on.  Entering and leaving a
starport normally entails clearing two customs/passport control stations
- -- the port's and the world's.  These may be combined or separate.

> Legal aid may be found at Type C starports and above, at least for local
> matters. 

Common criminal defendants don't have a right to counsel (although
nobles do).  (For civil law matters, of course, no one has a right to
counsel -- just the right to the counsel one can afford.)  So the person
accused of a crime on an Imperial installation must go through the
Imperial judicial process.  That may mean custodial transfer to a
higher-level starport or more important world where an Imperial judge
can be found to hear the case.  (Of course, the accused will be more
likely to find a lawyer there, too, and, while the Imperium doesn't have
to provide counsel, the Imperial authorities won't normally deny an
accused access to counsel.)

- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.
Lawyer since -2533
Traveller player since -2543
Traveller referee since -2540

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:59:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
 
> Five rounds later the Zhodani is dead & Rukh (the Vargr) is still alive
> and not even critically wounded after taking 3 or 4 PGMP shots from less
> than 1 meter.

The Zhodani should be dead from the backblast of his PGMP.  Isn't there
a minimum safe range for firing high energy weapons?  They should both
be dead after the first shot at that range -- so your rant is well
taken.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:04:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> That's what folks don't realize. Just *how* little fuel it takes to
> generate a lot of power.

Like that famous guy said, energy equals mass multiplied by the velocity
of light squared.  The velocity of light is a very big number.  Squared
it's much bigger.  So even you multiply that number by a very very very
small number representing mass, you still get a very big number for
energy.  At least that's how a high-verbal, low-math type like me thinks
of it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:21:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> ObTrav: How do the various alien races learn social skills?  How do they
> deal with human children, who are at best animals who have learned to wear
> clothing?

Funny, that's how Vargr parents describe their kids!  

The Diplomatic Elementary School on Jesedipere must be in a constant
state of riot; they probably only hire instructors who have Marine
Commando experience and Melee Combat-3.  By high school, things have
probably calmed down as the Vargr and human kids start focussing on the
important things:  Vargr and human kids of the opposite sex/appropriate
orientation.

And I'm sure some kids are going to date across species lines, if only
to annoy their parents.

Hmm... Jesedipere Diplomatic High School: The Anime Movie.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:27:34 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> Sorry about
> the rambling, but this is something that (for obvious reasons) hits very
> close to home for me. I don't think that there's ever an excuse for such a
> tragedy, but only in understanding the real reasons will we stop them from
> happening in the future.

Rambling forgiven; I suspect that a lot of us on the list (myself
certainly) are in accord.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:38:17 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

You know, when I was these kids age, I was the geek who played chess,
studied military history, and played Squad Leader and Ogre.  I was
harrassed, bullied, and everything else.  What amazes me is that while
the media and the pop psych crowd are busy with the latest witch hunt, no
one is examining the kids family history.  And what about the students
and teachers who knew them?  If I had shown up with a swastika on my
shirt in high school, my principal (an ex marine) would have dressed me
down and then sent me home, where my father would have done the same,
then made me change and sent me back to apologize.  Where is the
responsibility for one's peers and children?  Tis a sad commentary on the
state of our society when kids make clear signals and no one is willing
to say/do anything about it.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:42:50 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

"Your dating, Greffy?  She's such a dog!"

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)  


> important things:  Vargr and human kids of the opposite sex/appropriate
> orientation.
> 
> And I'm sure some kids are going to date across species lines, if only
> to annoy their parents.
> 
> Hmm... Jesedipere Diplomatic High School: The Anime Movie.
> 
> --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:57:26 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: OT: RPG Paranoia

Jim Clem wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
You know, when I was these kids age, I was the geek who played chess,
studied military history, and played Squad Leader and Ogre.  I was
harrassed, bullied, and everything else. 
>>>>>>>>>>
I was like that in junior high.

Somehow, I ended up with the captains of the wrestling and football 
teams in my RPG group. The hassling pretty much disappeared
along the way.

How do you convince a depressed kid in High School Hell that things *are* 
going to change?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:24:29 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

We had a big faculty meeting here at my school in Virginia, in which we were 
told about a "goth" group at our school who have been distributing disturbing 
pamphlets.  Our principal was alluding to the group playing "Vampire" but 
didn't use the name of the game, and she did say that it wasn't "Dungeons and 
Dragons" but something completely different--good to see some accurate info.  
(dern Vampire-freaks)

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:33:18 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> [lost attribution]
> > Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
> > Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
> > at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction.
> 
> Clancy spins an interesting tale, but his military theory is sometimes 
> weak.  So's his scientific theory.  Now if you'd referenced something 
> like Scientific American or some longhaired math pulled from a theoretical 
> physics publication, I'd buy it.  But Clancy?  A nice read, but I wouldn't
> bet the ranch on his theories.

As Clancy does not have a military or physics background, I 
think we can assume that he got the description of the "cold 
water accident" from someone who knew better than he did. 
Ironically, the fact that Clancy doesn't know a damn thing
about nuclear reactors is what makes his description credible - 
he clearly does a lot of research, and gets a lot of it right. 

And, as Matt Clonfero writes, having a military background 
doesn't mean you have a clue:
> Dale Brown: Must have spent too much time on pure oxygen whilst in SAC.
> A stealthy B-52? Only if you take the engines off, for starters.

Oh god. Excuse my off-topic rant: I borrowed Brown's _Fatal 
Terrain_ from girlfriend's dad while spending Xmas with her 
family. I was just appalled. Even leaving aside technical issues, 
he's got the US essentially sending a mercenary air force into 
a sensitive Chinese conflict, having those mercenaries - ex-US-
military people - firing on Chinese forces against orders and 
without anything like sufficient provocation, then being allowed
to do it _again_ ... and _again_ ... all because the "EB-52" is 
such a great toy. Oy. By comparison, Clancy is a technical, literary, 
and military genius. 

ObTrav: A group of mercenary PCs and their highly starship are 
hired for duty as a naval irregular, tasked to provide a show of
force only, and, bloodthirsty players being bloodthirsty players, 
they ignore orders, fire first and accomplish a total tactical 
victory - only to find out they've created a strategic nightmare, 
aren't going to be paid, and may well face criminal charges. 

> Rearward firing missiles? Present technical problems that have not yet
> been overcome in the West. 

If we felt the need to build rearward firing missiles, we could
do so in about a year. I'm fairly certain we've acquired R-73s, 
and technical problems aren't really associated with longitude. :) 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:33:18 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> [lost attribution]
> > Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
> > Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
> > at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction.
> 
> Clancy spins an interesting tale, but his military theory is sometimes 
> weak.  So's his scientific theory.  Now if you'd referenced something 
> like Scientific American or some longhaired math pulled from a theoretical 
> physics publication, I'd buy it.  But Clancy?  A nice read, but I wouldn't
> bet the ranch on his theories.

As Clancy does not have a military or physics background, I 
think we can assume that he got the description of the "cold 
water accident" from someone who knew better than he did. 
Ironically, the fact that Clancy doesn't know a damn thing
about nuclear reactors is what makes his description credible - 
he clearly does a lot of research, and gets a lot of it right. 

And, as Matt Clonfero writes, having a military background 
doesn't mean you have a clue:
> Dale Brown: Must have spent too much time on pure oxygen whilst in SAC.
> A stealthy B-52? Only if you take the engines off, for starters.

Oh god. Excuse my off-topic rant: I borrowed Brown's _Fatal 
Terrain_ from girlfriend's dad while spending Xmas with her 
family. I was just appalled. Even leaving aside technical issues, 
he's got the US essentially sending a mercenary air force into 
a sensitive Chinese conflict, having those mercenaries - ex-US-
military people - firing on Chinese forces against orders and 
without anything like sufficient provocation, then being allowed
to do it _again_ ... and _again_ ... all because the "EB-52" is 
such a great toy. Oy. By comparison, Clancy is a technical, literary, 
and military genius. 

ObTrav: A group of mercenary PCs and their highly starship are 
hired for duty as a naval irregular, tasked to provide a show of
force only, and, bloodthirsty players being bloodthirsty players, 
they ignore orders, fire first and accomplish a total tactical 
victory - only to find out they've created a strategic nightmare, 
aren't going to be paid, and may well face criminal charges. 

> Rearward firing missiles? Present technical problems that have not yet
> been overcome in the West. 

If we felt the need to build rearward firing missiles, we could
do so in about a year. I'm fairly certain we've acquired R-73s, 
and technical problems aren't really associated with longitude. :) 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:32:13 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

Having 1 or 2 ruling queens doesn't make you a matriarchy any more that 
Queens Elizabeth and Victoria make England a matriarchy.   As it was pointed 
out before Boudicca was a ruling Queen only as a result of special 
circumstances, i.e., the death of her husband and lack of alternative.   
Maeve, also isn't strong evidence since she is more myth than real.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:38:58 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #481

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:36:57 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

Do not forget the Frisbee
Cr 1 0.15 kg TL 6 (TL 7 ?)

a great cheap hobby and very usefull if you want to do surveillance on
someone in a public park, you just play Frisbee around them.  If you
are
desperate it can make a (very low dammage) weapon.
>>>> (end quoted material)
Here comes my Heresy on Tech Levels (I know I have pronounced it
before, but here we go again...).
Tech levels indicate an ability (physical capability, infrastructure,
trained workers, etc.) to produce an item primarily.  It has also to do
with knowing _how_ and _why_ to do it.  You could _build_ a Frisby at
TL1 (maybe even TL0, ex: boomerangs), but understanding _why_ it works
is TL 6/7.  The making of plastics is usually pegged at TL5/6 for early
stuff and you get fancier plastics at higher TLs.  We usually think of
frisbies as the plastic disks we usually throw around now, but the
originals were apparently metal pie tins (which work pretty well
actually).
Being _able_ to make something does not mean that you _will_ make it,
but if you do start making it when it is possible, it will get better
only in an evolutionary way until you understand the _whys_ of it.  Once
you understand why something works, you can make revolutionary changes
in the product.
Therefore (and here's the Heresy), if a planet is labeled TL7 in the
3I, it could have only an understanding of TL7 or it could have an
understanding of TL15 and on the capability of doing more than TL7
production.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:51:50 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: [OT] Missing Addresses

Will the following individuals please contact me off-list, regarding the
playtests for GT: Alien Races 1 and GT: Star Mercs?

Steve Anderson
Bryan Borich
Steve Dickie
David Smart
Mike Stone

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:09:32 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

Chris Seamans wrote:
> ...a high school friend of mine was frequently
> harassed and threatened with beatings. He walked up to his 
> locker one day and saw a threat and several disparaging insults. 
> Later on during the day, he was called down to the disciplinarian 
> who told him he better remove it by the end of the day or he'd 
> get in trouble.

That rings a bell for me. I had a high school incident that I'm
actually still kind of bitter about. 

A very clean-cut kid who I had exchanged a lot of ill will with 
(well, okay, I flipped him off in the hall eariler) knocked me 
down in a classroom. I was willing to let it go (being used to 
a wide variety of abuse, not a fighter by nature, and, after all, 
having provoked him), but the instructor sent us off to the vice 
principal's office. Quoth the VP to me after I related my side 
of the story: "Are you sure you didn't just fall down by yourself?"

I was pretty much stunned. I can't even remember what I responded, 
or if I did at all. "Um, yeah, that's it, I fell down, and that's 
why Mr. G sent us to you." The guy who knocked me down was just a 
high school jerk - kids are like that - but I still have a simmering
ember of contempt for the VP.

ObTrav, possibly in poor taste, so sue me:
Disgruntled schoolkids with PGMPs. 

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:19:16 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:57:26 -0400 Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
writes:
>How do you convince a depressed kid in High School Hell that things 
>*are* 
>going to change?
>
>Walt Smith


As a parent of two girls now, I wish I had the answer to
that..............

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:26:58 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [OT] Re: RPG Paranoia

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:12:06 -0400, Robert Prior
<robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Interesting to note that D&D and Gothic subculture were targetted in the
>same sentence. No mention of Vampire: The Masquerade (which even had a TV
>series). No mention of Anne Rice novels, films like "Devil's Advocate",...
>I'm planning on writing to the Star and protesting the shoddy research that
>went into the story. Hell, opening up a D&D book would have shown that
>inept reporter that there wasn't a direct link.

Part of this is simply lack of information on the part of the
media.  D&D is, no question, the best-known product of the
industry, and the mass media likes short words with little
intellectual content.  Thus, "rle-playing game", which has a
somewhat arcane and intellectual sound (maybe it's something that
psychologists use), is to be avoided; "Dungeons and Dragons" is
better, as everyone knows what dungeons are, and what dragons
are, and know that it's escapist fantasy (although they wouldn't
necessarily think of it consciously that way); "D&D" is still
better, since it's short, too.

On top of that, "Dungeons and Dragons" and "D&D" are a good way
to press one of the hot buttons of the so-called "religious
right".  One of the books had to be renamed - and practically
rewritten - to placate them; they were going on and on about
"devil worship" because of the title of the book and the names of
the demons whose stats were given.  The media remembers that, and
sensationalism sells.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:27:04 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/22/99 2:13:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kaleja@rahul.net 
writes:

<< That rings a bell for me. I had a high school incident that I'm
 actually still kind of bitter about.  >>

yeah; these stories ring a bell. This country worships sports, and "jocks" 
are thus BM/WOC (big man/woman on campus). In my school district, (which is 
pretty consernative) teachers volunteering to coach is definitely a career 
enhancing move....A lot of the Administrators are into sports which doesn't 
help the non conformists. This is starting to change as more and more 
principals rise from the ranks of teachers, and are not ex-jocks/coaches 
themselves...When I teach; if I coach (will be tough as my sports are ice 
hockey and lacrosse; not in demand in Las Vegas, but I can coach the off/def 
lines in American Football in a pinch); I will try get my players to view 
themselves as protectors of the weak and outcast, and not their primary 
tormentors. Maybe I can get through to them that being on the top of the 
pecking order has responsibilities that go with the privileges, and it's 
"cool" to break up fights and prevent bullying, instead of perpetrating it. 
Heck the Medieval church tried this on the knights and it worked to a certain 
extent. It's a leadership problem that parents and schools have to address...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:08:11 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Tolkien's Lord of Rings

All that is gold does not glitter,
   Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
   Deep roots are not touched by the frost.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
   A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
   The crownless again shall be king.

TAS

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #489
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 490



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Legal Records
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: GT Tech Level 9
re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Vargr vs. PGMP
OT: Re: Tolkien's Lord of Rings
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Economics of drop tanks
re: SCRAM
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Re: Extraterritoriality (long)
Which is better for Traveller
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #482
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Extraterritoriality
Re: SCRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:11:24 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

as I did say those were the only two to spring directly to mind.  There are 
many more documented, but for a subject that is kinda off topic and the fact 
tha I'm staring at a 12hr shift in one hour I am not inclined to go look them 
up in my books.  Have a very Celtic day :-P

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:11:36 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

>Back to the intent of the original question, regarding registration of vital
>statistics such as marriage. I've seen multiple references to a personal ID
>card which is recognized throughout the Imperium. Not all Imperial citizens
>have one -- Farmer Fred on a low-tech agricultural world who has never been
>more than 50 miles from his farm would likely not have one. But anyone who
>travels into space would have one, and it might even be a requirement to
>have one in order to clear Imperial customs. Such an ID card would be like
>a contemporary Earth passport, except it would record a LOT more information
>about the cardholder (marital status, occupation, retinal scans, DNA tags,
>shoe size, etc.). So if a person is married and has a Universal ID Card, then
>the marriage would be recorded on the card.

Not necessarily. Your Universal Identification Card (UIC) would have enough
information to identify you, but why would it necessarily include your
marriage? Would it include a record of all _other_ contracts you've entered
into?

Given the lasse faire nature of the Imperium, at least by 1107, I'd lean
towards the UIC including DNA, fingerprints and retinal scans, and all
other data necessary to _identify_ you, and only that. Your marital status
is no more a part of your identity than your political views, the overdue
fine for a library book when you were a child...

I just can't see the Imperium being bothered with all the trivial stuff.
IMTU, even your criminal record will only be on your UIC if the crimes were
Imperial crimes, judged in an Imperial court. (Also a good plot hook:
players might decide to risk planetary justice because that way their
interstellar ID stays clean.)

Trade papers would be a separate matter, and handled separately. Another
hard-to-forge card, maybe, that might include an encryption code so that it
will only display when inserted into the reader with your UIC.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:19:16 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>At 02:37 AM 4/22/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>>I *hate* that damned attitude that says that "fights" are ok, or that
>>they should be acceptable. The stresses that *used* to lead to fights
>>are *not* a symptom. They are part of the *problem*!
>
>Actually I've read some theories that fighting among grade school kids is
>an important part of the socialization process, and should be allowed.  It
>allows the social order to be shaken up as kids grow, and gives the kids at
>the bottom of the pecking order an outlet for their frustrations.  By high
>school, most people have ceased needing this outlet, and can socialize on a
>more mature level.

Fighting isn't an outlet when everyone outweighs you by 15-20 pounds. One
learns other coping mechanisms then. Like passive aggression. (I didn't say
_good_ coping mechanisms!)


>ObTrav: How do the various alien races learn social skills?  How do they
>deal with human children, who are at best animals who have learned to wear
>clothing?

Probably the same way we deal with their children: with kid gloves, and a
lot of heavy hints that this is a dangerous place and the parents should
watch their children closely. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:25:49 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GT Tech Level 9

>> After mucking around trying to design modules at GTL9, I'm coming to the
>> conclusion that we need to make some rules mods if GURPS Traveller it to
>> accurately mirror Traveller's "Early Stellar" tech levels (ie. TL9-11).
>
>I, too, have noticed some problems.  Specifically, how can a GTL9
>world afford starships in the first place that are on par with another
>world of much greater TL (GTL10-11)?
>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>My solution, although more handwaving than anything else, has the
>benefit of being fast, easy to implement and stays in line with the
>rules presented in GT.  Keep in mind that these numbers are for
>worlds the produce the product ... not those who buy it from
>someone else:
>
>GTL9 - Max Jump 2, Max Man 3
>GTL10 - Max Jump 3, Max Man 6
>GTL11 - Max Jump 4, Max Man 8
>GTL12 - Max Jump 6, Max Man 10

That works for capabilities, but to be strictly accurate (to GT rules) the
GTL9 worlds need to use different jump and maneuver modules. (GTL11 jump
and maneuver modules are identical to GTL12, according to VE2, so your
maximum values are a good handwave there.)

The heavier GTL9 power plant is a bit of a problem, but the thrusters make
even an unarmoured ship incredibly slow. I modified GT Shipyard to allow
GTL9 hulls, engineering modules, jump drives, and thrusters (as posted
here) and couldn't get a J1, 1G ship that worked. Part of the problem was
the massive crew requirements.

My solution would be to use the GTL9 values at TL9 values (ie. new
technology), and come up with hybrid values between GTL9 and GTL10 to
reflect Traveller TL10 and TL11. I just haven't had time to run some
numbers for these (nor the design experience to do a good job, I think).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:38:00 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>How do you convince a depressed kid in High School Hell that things *are*
>going to change?

You get them involved with a group of adults who treat them as an equal.

Ideally well-balanced adults.  "These are nice people, they like me, and
they listen to me" works wonders.

Mind you, in today's paranoid culture, any group of adults trying this with
troubled teens had better be able to afford a lawyer, if said troubled teen
decides to accuse one of the adults of improper behaviour.  I run this risk
every day at school, but I have a strong union that will defend me (unlike
my employer, who will try to avoid and trace of blame by throwing me to the
wolves).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:25:13 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Vargr vs. PGMP

If there wasn't room to use claws, how did the commando wield the PGMP?

Good Story anyway...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco." 
                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:27:40 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: OT: Re: Tolkien's Lord of Rings

Tascelt@aol.com wrote:
> 
> All that is gold does not glitter,
>    Not all those who wander are lost;
> The old that is strong does not wither,
>    Deep roots are not touched by the frost.
> >From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
>    A light from the shadows shall spring;
> Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
>    The crownless again shall be king.
> 
Or, the "Harvard Lampoon" version:

Barbisol was Twodor's king
  Whose foes his mighty blade did sting,
Till one day it got all rusted
  And Sorhed's parry left it busted.

Thus gloried Twodor came to nothing,
  Out of the king was beat the stuffing.
And thus we live in fear of Fordor
  Till Krona's back in working order!

Against the True King Sorhed's workin'
  So play your cards close to you jerkin,
For fortune strums a mournful tune
  For those whose campaigns peak too soon.

ObTrav:  None that I can see.  *shrug*

> TAS

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:21:05 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:09:32 -0700 Russell Bornschlegel
<kaleja@rahul.net> writes:
>
>ObTrav, possibly in poor taste, so sue me:
>Disgruntled schoolkids with PGMPs. 
>
>-Russell Bornschlegel

Clearly a Ditzie reference.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:30:54 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of drop tanks

>No, I modified the same ship you did, Jim, for the same reasons. The
>discrepancy is probably due to different assumptions. In particular, I used
>a tug instead of lighters, on the theory (stated explicitly in Supp 7:
>Traders and Gunboats) that drop tanks can only be "replaced" at a starport
>or base, and so either have to be picked up as cargo (takes time) or tugged
>back to port. Tugs are more expensive, etc., etc.

It's been awhile and I don't have a copy handy, But didn't canon originally
say that drop tanks were one time use devices, like aircraft drop tanks?
That would definitely tip the balance against drop tanks for all but
specialized uses IMHO.

That being said what might those uses be?  I would expect military uses. Not
on ships specially designed to use drop tanks instead of internal tankage,
but as well as internal tankage. Arrive in the target system with the
capability to jump back out if things get too hairy. Without having to fight
a SDB for the right to refuel at a GG.

IISS might find them useful to extend the range of exploration and survey
vessels. Not Xboats though. If they're expensive and hazardous it isn't
worth the risk. However high cost postal packet corps might feel
differently, if someone will pay them enough to make it worthwhile.

On a tanget:Ticket prices are too expensive, even using FT rules. I expect
not many people will travel to nearby same subsector tourist locations if
the only way that they can afford to go is to send themselves as cargo.  Is
there a way economically to explain why tickets on a Main coreward is more
affordable than out on the fringes? Even when travelling by Liner?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:36:00 PDT
From: "Perceval Lowry" <perceval01@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: SCRAM

A heads-up message from someone too busy in RL to work extra physics 
problems:

I have some more to say on this thread, but I won't be able to run the 
numbers on it until after finals.  I'll post some information about 
fusion I think is pretty germain, from sources (instead out of my very 
fallible head).

Fusion is not total mass-energy conversion, helium is produced as 
well.  Also, the only current successful model of hot fusion (i.e. 
stars) involves enormous temperatures and pressures.  Finally, no 
power plant ever known has been 100% efficent, and thermodynamics puts 
theoretical limits on efficency.  

I will get out my modern physics textbook and run some numbers over 
the above points soon.  I'll also try to think of ways a fusion 
reactor would "run amock", thus requiring heroic PC intervention.

Percy

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:15:44 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> Oddly enough, I've been discussing this in class today. Many of my students
> pointed out that far worse things happen in other countries, yet don't make
> the news because it's not an American event. (An interesting discussion
> about why Canadian news relies so heavily on American newswires resulted,
> too.)

Even more strange, considering I lived in the Detroit area during the
gulf
conflict and pretty much relied on CBC for anything resembling
perspective.

Maybe not so strange after all...... :/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:12:59 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Jim Clem wrote:
>this should be only available at class A ports.  Freezing H2 is not
>something easily done

Not to disagree but, at the Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility
(CEBAF) at Jefferson Lab we make Megaliters of the stuff at GTL 7-8. So does
NASA even now.  As a matter of fact isn't LHY necessary for any ship in
Traveller that doesn't have the equipment to use unrefined fuel?

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:13:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
> >How do you convince a depressed kid in High School Hell that things *are*
> >going to change?
> 
> You get them involved with a group of adults who treat them as an equal.
> 
> Ideally well-balanced adults.  "These are nice people, they like me, and
> they listen to me" works wonders.

You part Zho, Rob? ;-)

I was _just_ thinking about writing this very thing...

I was pondering _my_ school years and how a caring adult got me onto the
right track. A Young Adult librarian at my local public library branch
started a video club and a science fiction club...Sarajean saved a bunch
of people this way. We were all nerds and outcasts, and we finally found
someone who would take us seriously and taught us it _does_ get better.
I learned a _lot_ from and with those people.

She's one of those people in my life who could call at 3 AM "Help I'm in
a turkish jail" and I'd be on a plane flying east by 3:30...there's be a
bunch of us, too...

ObTrav...it'd take a good roleplayer, but whatta hook to get PC's on a
quest.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:51:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:08 PM
Subject: re: OT: RPG Paranoia


>How do you convince a depressed kid in High School Hell that things *are*
>going to change?


You don't. I promise you that they won't believe you if you do. Remember,
teenagers really do know it all. Once most of us hit adulthood and realize
how little we really do know, we forget that we once felt that we knew it
all.

I've tried to write a message explaining my point of view on what parents
and teachers can do to help outcast children (from my own experience), but
it's way to long and way off topic. Here's a short excerpt though:

When I was in high school, there was this one English teacher who I'll
always remember. At one school dance, she saw me with a "Jane's Addiction"
t-shirt and she called me over. We started talking about the group. During
the conversation, she said that she didn't like their music, but their
lyrics were absolutely fantastic. A year or two later I was in the art room
(Miss Christian was very good friends with Ms. Rogers, the art teacher), and
I was looking for some supplies in a closet. I came across some huge thick
binders. My curiosity got the best of me, and I started paging through them.
They were filled with mimeographed sheets containing song lyrics, and
explanations (from students) about what the lyrics meant to me. A friend of
mine who's older brother had gone to the same school a short time before
explained how she would give an assignment called "The Poetry of Rock."
Students would pick a song and analyze the lyrics as if it were the poetry
they had to analyze in class. It was only several years after I took her
class that I realized how brilliant that assignment was on so many levels.

On one hand, she was teaching in a manner that meant something to her
classes. While lots of kids might grumble at analyzing stuff written by
various dead poets, they always loved to analyze the lyrics to a song that
was vibrant and special *to them*. It worked in other ways, too. She was
deeply involved with her kids, and she was part of a cabal of teachers and
counselors that really cared about their students. She was able to read
about what these songs *meant* to the kids who listened to them year after
year. It helped her to understand where the kids were coming from and she
could share this type of thing with other teachers who felt they were having
problems with certain kids. It also made her "hip" to some extent. She could
converse with kids on their own level in a friendly fashion and earn their
trust.

As I've met people from other areas, I've never met anyone who had a
comparable assignment in high school, and that's a damned shame. That one
assignment had an effect on everybody I know who took it, and I know each
group of kids who take that assignment have their effects on Miss Christian
as well.

If anyone's interested in my opinions on the subject, I'd love to share them
off list, where it's more appropriate. I'm not an expert on the subject, but
I can tell you what worked with my friends and I, and what didn't. It's
still fresh on my mind. Eventually, I'd like to end up teaching history and
I hope I'll still remember my experiences as a student when I do.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:55:44 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia


>tormentors. Maybe I can get through to them that being on the top of the
>pecking order has responsibilities that go with the privileges, and it's
>"cool" to break up fights and prevent bullying, instead of perpetrating it.
>Heck the Medieval church tried this on the knights and it worked to a
certain
>extent. It's a leadership problem that parents and schools have to
address...


Something like the "Jocks Templar"? ;^)

Seriously though, this will work. I saw a few kids in my school who used
their popularity for good instead of evil. Some of the "jocks" were fans of
bands we liked and as such would be (at the very least) pleasant to us...
especially the day after a concert we had run into them at.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:02:57 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 6:32 PM
Subject: re: OT: RPG Paranoia


>You get them involved with a group of adults who treat them as an equal.


I couldn't agree more. Really. This comes from personal experience. Of
course, it helps to a great degree if they're not only well-balanced adults,
but *open minded* adults. The kind of people who remember that their parents
and teachers were on their backs because they listened to The Beatles and
The Rolling Stones, or Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, or Elvis, or
whatever's appropriate. I imagine that alot of teachers who are beginning to
enter the pool now were weaned on the same music I was...

Frightening thought. I'd better get moving with my life.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:22:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:48:12
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>At 01:02 PM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>I probably will just show up one day Sat. or Sunday.  (prob
>>Sat.).  Getting out of work in time to make it up is too much....
>
>If you could make it down Friday evening, we're having dinner at Denny's.

What time?  I assume it is whatever Denny's is nearest the con?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:19:24 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality (long)

Great discussion.  I do have one point of disagreement though.  If memory 
serves me, Traveller canon early on contained the Imperial law that nuclear 
devices were restricted to government ownership (Imperial and planetary).  I 
seem to remember an explicit statement, maybe in Mercenary or High Guard that 
civilians were limited to high explosive warheads.  Any comments?

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:27:10 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Which is better for Traveller

	With the recent talk about Farscape, I was wondering if Futurama 
might really more appropriate for Traveller, I mean the character actually 
work for a living like Traveller characters,  delivery-boys: merchants.   

			Dave Nelson
(apologies to Limeys and other foreigners who might not get either show)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:14:56 -0400
From: Scott Davis <thorinn@mediaone.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #482

Not everybody can afford to hire out all the domestic chores. It then becomes
additional work for the family to fit into their "non-working" free-time.


>>>>>>>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:20:01 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: failed societies...

- - -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 20 April 1999 9:23
Subject: re: failed societies



>>The column I read calculated these functions (at professional hourly
>>rates) at about $52k US per year.  With inflation that is more by now.
>>- Joseph
>
>True, but remember that not all of these functions are being performed to
>professional standards, so using professional rates of pay is an
>inappropriate comparison.
>
>

No, but if the "Domestic Engineer" are not doing these jobs themselves, they
now have to pay professional rates to get comparable results, that was the
point of the survey.

- - --  The Roc

>>>>>>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:32:01 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>> Oddly enough, I've been discussing this in class today. Many of my students
>> pointed out that far worse things happen in other countries, yet don't make
>> the news because it's not an American event. (An interesting discussion
>> about why Canadian news relies so heavily on American newswires resulted,
>> too.)
>
>Even more strange, considering I lived in the Detroit area during the
>gulf
>conflict and pretty much relied on CBC for anything resembling
>perspective.
>
>Maybe not so strange after all...... :/

You might want to write off to our government about that. The CBC is being
cut back (again), and the CRTC is reviewing its license. Some of the
commercial stations are arguing that, because they broadcast the same type
of program, the CBC has no right to do so. Thus, because City TV broadcasts
news*, they want CBC out of the news business.

ObTrav? Can't think of one. The Imperium has no equivalent to the CBC.

*City is notorious for using "videographers" instead of reporters, who are
(a) very young and ill-informed, and (b) more interested in artistic camera
angles than conveying information.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:34:17 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>You part Zho, Rob? ;-)
>
>I was _just_ thinking about writing this very thing...

Yup. Mindreading is part of my professional training.


>I was pondering _my_ school years and how a caring adult got me onto the
>right track. A Young Adult librarian at my local public library branch
>started a video club and a science fiction club...Sarajean saved a bunch
>of people this way. We were all nerds and outcasts, and we finally found
>someone who would take us seriously and taught us it _does_ get better.
>I learned a _lot_ from and with those people.
>
>She's one of those people in my life who could call at 3 AM "Help I'm in
>a turkish jail" and I'd be on a plane flying east by 3:30...there's be a
>bunch of us, too...

You can't pay people like that back. You can only pay forward.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:40:14 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> I imagine that alot of teachers who are beginning to
>enter the pool now were weaned on the same music I was...

Beethoven, actually. But then I've been teaching a while... :-)


>Frightening thought. I'd better get moving with my life.

Hadn't we all?


ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller, suitable for
use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something a high
school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include all the
explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right away,
and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a theme
that teenagers would get into.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:19:41 +1200
From: pbroeder@wave.co.nz
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson wrote:

When applying for Imperial membership, one of the standard allegiance
clauses is to provide the Imperium with a starport.When the world signs
the allegiance document, it gives the selected starport (and such
adjacent lands as agreed upon) to the Imperium
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What happens with class X starports? do these planets not belong to the
3rd Imperium or is there a non-starport allegiance clause?

Jonathan, New Zealand.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:25:07 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

<        No, no, no, that's not what I meant.  Come back here.
<
<       Could someone please explicit to me in semi-technical terms what
<happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
<*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc,
etc.
<I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard
this
<term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!
<
<        --Michel

I'm probably way behind with this but-- SCRAM--"Super-Critical Rapid Ax Man"
shutdown.
Fission reactors work in this way. Fuel, which is some kind of Uranium or
Plutonium isotope gives off neutrons which cause a chain reaction and
releases energy and more neutrons. A moderator-like carbon or hafnium is
used as a neutron moderator. It absorbs neutrons and stops the reaction.  To
produce energy you pull the moderator, which is typically fabricated into
rods out of the reactor and the chain reaction starts.
In the early days (at the University of Chicago among other places) the rods
were pulled up using pulleys and ropes. If the Reactor got out of control
and had to be shut down in an emergency the ropes could be cut with an ax
by---you guessed it--- the Super-Critical Rapid Ax Man!!
Modern commercial reactors use hydraulically operated control rods that are
typically magnetically latched. In an emergency they are forcefully inserted
by either mechanical (spring), hydraulic or pneumatic pressure either
automatically by an alarm system or manually (via a switch).  After use the
rods can typically be relatched and the reactor brought back to operation.
I expect that a fusion reactor will also have some kind of automatic
protective shutdown system, but in the strictest sense it will NOT SCRAM.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #490
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 491



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: SCRAM
Re: Legal Records
re: SCRAM
note: new email address for Bruce Macintosh
Re: Legal Records
Re; Legal Records
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit 
Starter Scenarios (was: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia)
Re: SCRAM
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill
Re: Frisbees
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #478
Experience Systems
Re: basic Traveller Starter kit
Re: Legal Records...
A Question, Anson (off all topics!)...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Re; Legal Records
Re: SCRAM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:20:29 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/22/99 6:33:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robert_prior@sympatico.ca writes:

<< 
 >ObTrav: How do the various alien races learn social skills?  How do they
 >deal with human children, who are at best animals who have learned to wear
 >clothing?
 
 Probably the same way we deal with their children: with kid gloves, and a
 lot of heavy hints that this is a dangerous place and the parents should
 watch their children closely. :-)
  >>
Except for Hivers of course, who don't teach their children at all

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:29:58 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia


>Beethoven, actually. But then I've been teaching a while... :-)


:^)

>ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller, suitable for
>use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something a high
>school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include all the
>explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right away,
>and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a theme
>that teenagers would get into.


Let me think on that one. I might be up to the challenge.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:45:12 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

ON Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:32:42 -0400 Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:

>>        Could someone please explick to me in semi-technical terms what
>>happens when a fission reactor "SCRAMs"?  Further, can you "SCRAM" a
>>*fusion* reactor?  Is the condition recoverable?  If so, how long, etc,
etc.
>>I am working up some "role-playing" space-combat effects and have heard
this
>>term used but have never gotten a good explanation of it.  Thanks!
>
>AFAIK (And I am by no means qualified to answer this), this is something
>that only happens on nuclear-powered ships (I've only seen it in context of
>a sub, but I see no reason this can't be used in other vessels).  A SCRAM
>is the process of flooding the reactor with seawater in order to cool it
>rapidly.  This is only done in _extreme_ emergencies, as it pretty much
>destroys the reactor and floods the local ecosystem with tons of very
>radioactive water.  AFAIK this has never actually been done IRL.
>
>
>Again, I could be wrong here....
>
>          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
>	     Gearhead-in-Training
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry Falcon you have you're procedures confused. What you're describing is
an emergency cooling event.  The reactor is indeed SCRAM'ed prior to
initiating emergency cooling, but a SCRAM is **not** a reactor damaging
event. Indeed since any one of several hundred alarm events can cause a
commercial or naval reactor to SCRAM IRL the owners of these power plants
have procedures in place that allow them to recover from a SCRAM event in a
relatively short time.
An emergency cooling event on the other hand is the result of a major loss
of reactor cooling or reactor containment integrity. Three Mile Island had a
major loss of reactor cooling followed by a failure of its emergency cooling
system.  The reactor SCRAM'ed but that was a good thing under the
circumstances.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:00:12 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

>This afternoon I had to go to the courthouse to locate and get copies of
>some old legal documents.  This got me to thinking...With the size of the
>population of the 3I, and the transitory nature of some of its citizens
>(services, merchants, PCs, etc), how do you handle old legal documents.
>Say you were married on Regina, divorced on Mora, and then were transferred
>to Lunion where you wished to get married again.  Without waiting months to
>years for the copies of the documents to prove that you were divorced, and
>that yes, you were married before, and may I please get married _NOW_ while
>I still love this person?

Universal Imperial ID, which contains in a very tamperproof, non-votile form
all relevant information on the person. This is how certified Astrogators,
Masters and Engineers prove their certification.
Can it be spoofed by PC's with high skill levels in electronic forgery? Of
course, and Players being what they are who would have it any other way.
(But make them work for it.)

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:05:00 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: re: SCRAM

>IIRC
>SCRAM=Safety Control Reactor Axe-Man

Duh. It's been awhile!! I stand corrected.


Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:11:15 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: note: new email address for Bruce Macintosh

Just a quick note - UCLA has decided that I can't keep my
bmac@astro.ucla.edu
email box any more. My current real employer, a DOE lab that will remain
nameless, is going
through a phase of
what we will politely describe as "enhanced computer security" - including
scanning incoming
and outcoming email for sensitive information. I'm sure there's no *legal*
problem with me
posting to the TML, but I don't fancy having to explain to security people
that all the
references to "nuclear detonation lasers" were only a game...so I've moved
my TML and
TTL access to this newly-minted commercial account.

The bad part is that since I have an actual life at home, I'm probably going
to skim the TML
rather than wallowing in its more complex debates. Anyone with Important
Sensor Questions
or astronomy questions might want to email them directly and/or post to TTL
to be sure of
getting my attention.

Bruce Macintosh

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:14:40 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records

Far Trader has a section on required legal documentation while travelling in
the Imperium and when crossing it's boarders.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:53:02 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re; Legal Records

IIRC canon is fairly explicit in its description of Imperial Law.  Slavery
is illegal.  The Imperium is the ultimate authority between worlds.  No
world shall inhibit interstellar trade. "The Imperium takes to itself the
space between worlds and leaves the dirt to the planets" or some such thing.

The Imperium has extensive banking laws. They're covered in Far Trader. They
have laws to cover Mercantile wars (Good Wars). They're covered in Star
Mercs.  Far Trader implies that contract law exists, as contracts would not
be enforceable without it, and without contracts there would be no trade.

As for other laws: I would expect that actions against the Imperium, it's
agents, Imperial Nobles (In areas where they hold authority and everywhere
when they are acting as agents of the Imperium) would be enforceable on any
world of the Imperium.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:05:48 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit 

> > Five rounds later the Zhodani is dead & Rukh (the Vargr) is still alive
> > and not even critically wounded after taking 3 or 4 PGMP shots from less
> > than 1 meter.
> 
> The Zhodani should be dead from the backblast of his PGMP.  Isn't there
> a minimum safe range for firing high energy weapons?  They should both
> be dead after the first shot at that range -- so your rant is well
> taken.

They have a primary burst radius of 5m, in TNE anyways.  It's possible to get 
hit by 6 fragments, each of which will do 2d6 (or 2d10) damage per *second* 
until removed.  TNE uses 5 second combat rounds.  5 attempts [Average AGL] 
may be made per round.  This applies to everything within the blast area 
(secondary blast area is 10m, which just gives a lesser chance of being hit, 
in the case of high energy weapons), including the firing character and 
target.  Armor has a delaying effect, but will eventually conduct through 
unless it's discarded or removed (and what are you going to "remove" a blob 
of plasma with?  ;-)

High Energy weapons were notoriously weak in TNE until GDW put out an 
official upgrade in Challenge Magazine and Striker II.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:12:48 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Starter Scenarios (was: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia)

At 08:40 PM 4/22/99 +0100, you wrote:
>ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller, suitable for
>use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something a high
>school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include all the
>explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right away,
>and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a theme
>that teenagers would get into.

Many of the ones in T4's Missions of State would be appropriate...
Especially Retian and Juenaire and The Khiidkar Incident... 

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- --
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc tm? tn? t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ 
	pi-(+) ta- he+ kk? hi+ as+ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:45:50 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote

> The plasma inside a neon light tube may be at a million degrees. It's
> just *thin* as all get out. The total *heat* content is virtually nil.

> To generate 250 MW requires fusing a mere 2.7 *micrograms* of hydrogen
> per second. At *one hundred* million degrees, that wouldn't have 
> enough heat energy to melt an ice cube. Not even if only 1 in a 
> million atoms fuses (ie there would be 2.7 grams of hydrogen in there).

So what exactly will happen when a PC sticks their hand in the fushion
chamber then?  [Assuming their hand does not disrupt the containment.]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:00:24 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>ObTrav: Its this impotence and frustration that are the prime motivation
>of most terrorists and classic "bad guys".

I disagree with this statement.

Sure, a _few_ of them may have such a motivation, but I'd say _most_
terrorists and villians have the same motivations as player characters.

The search for the fast buck, an ideological reason, or "heroism",
they're just heroes for the other side.

The best villians are always relatively sane, moral, patient individuals
working for the betterment of their race or species, who are demonstrably
_right_. Someone like a Martin Luther King or Mahatma Ghandi.

But when they are Zhodani or Vargr, it doesn't matter how right they are for
the Zho's or the Vargr, your players just have to beat then anyway, don't
they ?

If you add just a touch of pride, and a bit of temper to them, you get good
comicbook villians like Magneto or Ras Al Ghul, or the Irish RL hero Michael
Collins.

Frankie

















>
>Andrew etc.
>  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
>IMTU Code
>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge
>
>*****************************************************************
>Names Explained 5: ROSE
>As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
>unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
>female children from vegetation.
>*****************************************************************
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:14:37 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote

> Peter Newman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> If you want to see what the average Fleet Tactics skill for the 
> Admirals in various navies why don't you do a statistical analysis of 
> the expected levels that typical admirals will have when their 
> charecters are generated using High Guard

> I doubt this kind of outcome was intended by most of the
> character generation sequences - they were designed to make characters
> for play, the sequence won't necessarily reflect the historical 
> capabilities of a race's Naval High Command.

They were indeed designed to make charecters for play - charecters that
reflect the society they are from.  It is no more  [and no less]
unreasonable to look at the average levels of Fleet Tactics Zhodani
Admirals will have when generated then it is to look at the Psionic
skills they have, or to look at the social atitudes they will have based
on their societies.  When the Alien charecter generation process was
done deliberate choices were made as to how to midify the Imperial human
charecter generation process.  It is by no means unreasonable to use
this _canonical_ data to look at the charecters they will generate.

For example when you compare the possible skills from the Naval
charecter generation sequence for the "Navy Life" skill table between
the Imperial Navy and the Solomani Confederation Navy you will note that
the Imperial Navy gives a chance of Carousing but the Confederation Navy
does not.  This reflects real differences between the two societies as
seen by Marc Miller and John Harshman when they wrote the charecter
generation.  The different frequency of Fleet Tactics skill is just as
reasonable an item to look at.

or example in the Imperial Navy you may learn Fleet Tactics _only_ while
serving as a staff officer of Rank O4+ [Fleet Tactics is not on the
Command Officer skill table - Ship Tactics is] and are twice as likely
to learn Fleet Tactics if you are O7+ and serve in a staff position, by
attending Command College, or attending Staff College.  In the Solomani
Navy you may gain Fleet Tactics while serving as Staff Officer of rank
O4+ [but are no more likely to learn it if you are O7+] or while serving
as a Command Officer of rank 07+, in Command College, or while
undergoing Officer Training as a former enlisted person,  Solomani going
to Staff College do not learn Fleet Tactics.

Therefore the _canonical_ data for the Imperial Navy show that staff
officers learn Fleet Tactics while Command officers do not.  In the
Solomani Nvay both Command and Staff officers can learn Fleet Tactics. 
This says something about the differences between the two institutions.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:37:14 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Frisbees

"Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com> wrote 

> > Do not forget the Frisbee
> > Cr 1 0.15 kg TL 6 (TL 7 ?)

> Tech levels indicate an ability (physical capability, infrastructure,
> trained workers, etc.) to produce an item primarily.  It has also to 
> do with knowing _how_ and _why_ to do it.  You could _build_ a Frisby 
> at TL1 (maybe even TL0, ex: boomerangs), but understanding _why_ it 
> works is TL 6/7.  The making of plastics is usually pegged at TL5/6 
> for early stuff and you get fancier plastics at higher TLs.  We 
> usually think of frisbies as the plastic disks we usually throw around 
> now, but the originals were apparently metal pie tins (which work 
> pretty well actually).

I was using the "historical" definition of Tech Levels from CT which
states that Tech Level 6 is approximated by the [US?] technology of
"circa 1940 and 1969" and tech level 7 is "circa 1970 to 1979" -  The
Traveller Bokk HC page 85. 

What I meant was that the particular plastic frisbee that Sigrid, the
charecter in question, was descibed by the Ref as made by the Frisbee
Company [still around] being basically the same as a modern Frisbee
despite the fact that when she bought it on a TL F [Terra/Solomani Rim
circa 1081] world.  Therefore this particular frisbee was modern.  I do
not know, nor much care, to what degree the Frisbee company has changed
the pladstic composition of their plastic Frisbees since they were
introduced.  I know that their introduction was post WW II which makes
modern Frisbees TL 6, possibly 7 or 8 if they now use higher tech
plastic [ I bet that they do not].

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:51:23 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #478

>From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
>Subject: Travellers' Starter Kit

<snip>

>The one item *no* player's kit should be without
>is:
>
>(drumroll and crash of cymbals)
>
>Duct Tape!
>
><snip>

and don't forget,
the all important tool,
that no engineer will ever be without,
the one,
the only,

HOTMELT GLUE GUN!

/begin advertising spiel
Need to stick something to that bulkhead? No worries, the new HOTMELT has
over seven thousand uses, including pasting the radar array to a handy tree,
holding down that small annoying 'something' while you are typing code, and
even (with the new CONDUCTOMELT(tm) sticks), repairing that burnt out
circuit!
How can you afford to be without one!
/end advertising spiel

Seriously though, the techs at work tend to use the thing fairly heavily. SO
IT MUST BE GOOD!

Haha.

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:39:33 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Experience Systems

Hmm, some interesting ideas floating around here. Here's the system I use

I run a very Heretic Space marine Campaign set in the 2300 AD universe using
the TNE system (I'm an old Twilight 2000 fan, so it suits me :)

The characters get 'adventure points' at the end of each mission. These
points can be used to raise a skill before or after a mission as follows.
The number of points needed to increase a skill are the level the skill is
going to eg. to go from level 3 to level 4 in a skill costs 4 points. That
is the standard TNE way of doing it. A new skill costs 1 point, but I have
added a stipulation that the character must find some way of getting
training in a new skill to learn it... Makes it interesting for skills like
Xenobiology.
I have also added in a system like in Runequest where a skill must have been
usefully used in an adventure to qualify for an increase, this means placing
a tick beside the skill when used and I deem it appropriate. Putting that in
made my players try to find ways to use their skills, which has made the
whole game a lot more fun for everyone. One character has gained a carousing
skill of 8! I must say they worked on it, many a hard earned credit has gone
across the spaceport bar :)
I have no level limit on skills, if you want to spend the points, go ahead.
As the system uses a D20 it's a linear increase anyway so big deal.

Well, that's my rant for now,

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:46:01 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: basic Traveller Starter kit

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 21 April 1999 6:19
Subject: basic Traveller Starter kit


This list is very similar to what my STSK (Standard Traveller Starter Kit)
consisted of also...

>
>Clothes (these are minimums; adjust up for high social status, high
>rank):
>One set of dress uniform; one set of fatigue uniform
>One set of formal civilian clothes; one set of casual clothes
>

Including suitable footwear, dress shoes, sport shoes, boots, etc., as
applicable, and jacket(s).  Not to mention underwear (D'oh!  I wasn't going
to mention that!) and ship's uniform if part of a ship's crew... the
underwear thing was also like the dress from Aliens series that the marines
wore, etc.

>Paperwork (which may not be in paper format at all, but rather
>electronic):
>service identification
>Imperial identification/Imperial passport
>passport of homeworld
>vehicle operators' license as appropriate
>other licenses as appropriate
>money card(s) (per JTAS article)
>
>Things (again, adjust upward for high social, rank):
>basic toilet articles:  toothbrush or equivalent, grooming utensils,
>etc.
>palmtop data unit for addresses, calendar, etc.
>wallet
>pen
>pocketknife
>pictures of family (probably in electronic format)
>luggage as appropriate (at least one medium-sized duffel bag issued by
>branch of service)
>

And a suitable time peice.

>A player can always suggest other things that his or her character would
>have upon mustering out.
>
>--Glenn
>

And I would assign something individual to each player so they were not
clones of each other, like one may have a PC or equivalent, while another
might have a dedicated game device (like a Sega/Nintendo/or whatever),
another might have a sound system, hobby goods (stamps, trading cards
[electronic??], model starship kits, etc.), and so on.

Then comes the real hardware.  No PC could start the game with more than one
firearm of a nominated TL, and one normal blade weapon.  I never saw the
point in arming them to the teeth before play (I never made life that easy
for them, but never stopped them from acquiring things via roleplay).
Everything else they needed (ropes/cables, communicators, etc.) was
roleplayed for.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:26:18 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Legal Records...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brannon W. Boren <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, 22 April 1999 4:33
Subject: Re: Legal Records


>
>In the real world, is a marriage conducted in Iraq valid under US law?
>Would it be permisable for a person married in Iraq to get married to a
>woman in the US without divorcing his previous Iraqi wife? (I chose Iraq
>because it seems unlikely that the US has any kind of reciprocal contract
>recognition agreement with them).
>
>Anyone know much about such issues?
>
>Brannon
>

I think you will find that a wife is a wife is a wife, and the US government
will recognise it as such.  An English family recently had a hell of a time
getting their (I think) 16 year old daughter's marriage annulled to a
Turkish man(?) in his 20's... she had met him on holidays, wed under Turkish
law and England had to let the family sort it out as it was not under their
control (The couple *were* married!).

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:50:20 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: A Question, Anson (off all topics!)...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anson Betts <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
To: Traveller List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, 23 April 1999 5:49
Subject: Experience Systems


>
>Cheers,
> Anson.
>
>Oook Oook
>

Damn it!  I gotta ask Anson... The "Oook Oook" at the bottom of your posts,
does that mean (Shades of Terry Pratchet) "Librarians Rule" where you are?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:49:15 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 20:32 22/04/1999 +0100, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>ObTrav? Can't think of one. The Imperium has no equivalent to the CBC.

I disagree:

The TNS is funded by its members (who want to know the news) rather
than advertisers and sponsors (who want to influence it).

Its not under Imperial control either.

(Of course, its not perfect - there's a big entrance fee to become a
 member and lots of the members also run government and the corps but
 I always assume that non-members can use many of the facilities
 on a pay as you go basis - eg buying their TL15 "newspaper".)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:54:31 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Re; Legal Records

At 23:53 22/04/1999 -0400, "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com> wrote:
>IIRC canon is fairly explicit in its description of Imperial Law.  Slavery
>is illegal.  The Imperium is the ultimate authority between worlds.  No
>world shall inhibit interstellar trade. "The Imperium takes to itself the
>space between worlds and leaves the dirt to the planets" or some such thing.

My take is that planets can restrict the types of goods imported or exported
between Imperial territory and the the planet but cannot sieze or destroy
goods or ships leagally in transit through the system (up to and including
the Starport).
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:47:14 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

At 21:45 22/04/1999 -0800, Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>So what exactly will happen when a PC sticks their hand in the fushion
>chamber then?  [Assuming their hand does not disrupt the containment.]

The automatic safety systems should have taken the sytem off line, but
assuming that they have been overridden...

Inertial confinement means that several powerful laser beams will
add the player's hand to the plasma.

Magnetic Confinement would almost certainly be broken by the player's
hand but the immediate effects should include radiation sickness.
I don't think that multi tessla magnetic fields would be very healthy
either.

Gravitic confinement - nothing that is visible from outside the Star.
If the player is an arm's length from a steller core, they are way
too close.

Damper catalysed reactions might be able to continue.

All guesses, of course

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #491
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 492



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Legal Records...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Travellers' Starter Kit
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
Re: SCRAM
ANZAC Tribute...
Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!
M:IW Terran M2134 Gauss sniper rifle
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #482
re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #490
Re: GT Tech Level 9
Re: Extraterritoriality (long)
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:58:34 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Records...

At 18:26 23/04/1999 +1000, "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:

>I think you will find that a wife is a wife is a wife, and the US government
>will recognise it as such.  An English family recently had a hell of a time
>getting their (I think) 16 year old daughter's marriage annulled to a
>Turkish man(?) in his 20's... she had met him on holidays, wed under Turkish
>law and England had to let the family sort it out as it was not under their
>control (The couple *were* married!).

IIRC

The girl was under 16 (specifically, the marriage couldn't have been
conducted in England).

There is a much closer example of this in Britain.
Under English law, you need parental permission to marry upto 18
(and I don't think you can marry before 16)
Under Scottish Law, you don't need parental permission at 16 or 17.
So there are frequental references to couples heading across the
border to get married.

Its possible that these laws have been updated recently.

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:14:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:57:26 -0400 Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> writes:
>>How do you convince a depressed kid in High School Hell that things
>>*are* going to change?
>
> As a parent of two girls now, I wish I had the answer to that..............

Well, what got *me* thru, was something like this:

If I was right, and nobody gave damn or everyone disliked me, then I'd
be doing them a *favor* by committing suicide. 

If I was *wrong* and someone actually *did* care, then I'd be hurting
them terribly by committing suicide.

It *sounds* awfully "logical", but there's a lot of emotional stuff in
there. And it *did* get me thru.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:17:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

> At 02:37 AM 4/22/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>>I *hate* that damned attitude that says that "fights" are ok, or that
>>they should be acceptable. The stresses that *used* to lead to fights
>>are *not* a symptom. They are part of the *problem*!
>
> Actually I've read some theories that fighting among grade school kids is
> an important part of the socialization process, and should be allowed.  It
> allows the social order to be shaken up as kids grow, and gives the kids at
> the bottom of the pecking order an outlet for their frustrations.

Huh? Since the kids at the bottom tend to be the ones least able to
fight, how does this give them an outlet? 

> ObTrav: How do the various alien races learn social skills?  How do they
> deal with human children, who are at best animals who have learned to wear
> clothing?

I expect that Vargr children are both *worse* and *better*. Consider
the dynamics of a wolf pack. The cubs get a lot of attention, but they
also learn *quickly* that *any* adult has more "status" than they do,
so they know not to "bother" an adult who is busy. Nor to bother an
adult who says "no!". 

K'kree are going to be more like herd animals. As such, I expect that
the males get kicked out of the herd at "puberty" and have to earn a
place in a herd later. 

Anybody know if K'kree "herds" are of the "single male, lots of
females" model (horses), or the "dominant male, a few subordinate
males, lots of females" model? It'll make a difference in the social
structure. 

Aslan I'm not going to get into. Though I *think* they follow the "lion
pride" model.

Hiver "children" *are* animals. Until they get big enough, and bright
enough to be "adopted", they don't count.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:13:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

> That rings a bell for me. I had a high school incident that I'm
> actually still kind of bitter about. 
>
> A very clean-cut kid who I had exchanged a lot of ill will with 
> (well, okay, I flipped him off in the hall eariler) knocked me 
> down in a classroom. I was willing to let it go (being used to 
> a wide variety of abuse, not a fighter by nature, and, after all, 
> having provoked him), but the instructor sent us off to the vice 
> principal's office. Quoth the VP to me after I related my side 
> of the story: "Are you sure you didn't just fall down by yourself?"
>
> I was pretty much stunned. I can't even remember what I responded, 
> or if I did at all. "Um, yeah, that's it, I fell down, and that's 
> why Mr. G sent us to you." The guy who knocked me down was just a 
> high school jerk - kids are like that - but I still have a simmering
> ember of contempt for the VP.

Back in 9th grade (last year of junior high), there was a jerk who'd
been harassing me for years. One day I was walking with a friend to the
friend's house, instead of to my place. This meant I was walking south
instead of west, so I was walking in the same direction as the jerk.

He accosted me and proceeded to spray me with mace (this was *long*
before pepper spray). Unfortunately for him, I both wear glasses *and*
have suffered from extreme allergies all my life. So the spray didn't
get into my eyes, and the effects from the spray *near* my eyes and
nose wasn't much worse than a bad allergy attack. So I chased *him*. I
didn't catch him. 

My friend advised me to leave it at that. But I was *really* pissed. So
I walked back to school and told the whole story to a school counselor.
The jerk got suspended from school and in various other sorts of
trouble (he'd shoplifted the mace sprayer). 

As my friend had warned, many folks at the school were mad at *me* for
dragging adults into a "private" affair. I didn't much care because my
few friends didn't, and I had given up on pleasing the majority of the
other kids *long* before. 

But that attitude is *exactly* the sort of thing that leads to these
problems. Another one is the old "it takes two to make a fight". Lord,
the number of times I heard that. If I'd known then what I know now,
I'd told the "responsible adults" saying that "So you'd rather I just
stood there and let him beat the shit out of me? It's not as if I can
out run him, you know."

Another good response would be "Yeah, but it only takes *one* to
administer a beating."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:32:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller, suitable for
> use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something a high
> school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include all the
> explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right away,
> and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a theme
> that teenagers would get into.

How about a scenario where a bunch of high school students discover
that the principal is actually an alien agent there to brianwash the
kids? 

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:35:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Travellers' Starter Kit

In mail you write:

>> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>  
>> Five rounds later the Zhodani is dead & Rukh (the Vargr) is still alive
>> and not even critically wounded after taking 3 or 4 PGMP shots from less
>> than 1 meter.
>
> The Zhodani should be dead from the backblast of his PGMP.  Isn't there
> a minimum safe range for firing high energy weapons?  They should both
> be dead after the first shot at that range -- so your rant is well
> taken.

More to the point, I can see the PGMP blast, in a duct at least
*partially* blocked by the Vargr acting to blow the Zhodani out the
other end of the duct (assuming no sharp bends).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:39:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> >> Or just cut the containment field. The actual *mass* of plasma involved
>> >> is low enough that the reactor vessel won't do more than get warm. 
>> >
>> > Not a good idea, I think.  Shipboard reactors have a *big*
>> > containment vessel, and the reaction itself is on the order of tens
>> > of *MILLIONS* of degrees.  It takes a lotta fuel to crank out that
>> > 250 *MEGAWATTS* of power you need just to move around a bit.
>> 
>> The plasma inside a neon light tube may be at a million degrees. It's
>> just *thin* as all get out. The total *heat* content is virtually nil.
>
> Neon lights don't work on plasma principles.  All we do is ionise the gas a 
> bit.  If the temperature of the gas exceeds 1000 degrees C, I'd be surprised.

Actually, they do. Ionized gas *is* a plasma. And the temp in a plasma
of that sort is more determined by voltage versus atomic weight (ie in
terms of electron volts).

The temperature is determined by the average kinetic energy, but in a
plasma that gets *real* weird, real fast.

>> To generate 250 MW requires fusing a mere 2.7 *micrograms* of hydrogen
>> per second. At *one hundred* million degrees, that wouldn't have enough
>> heat energy to melt an ice cube. Not even if only 1 in a million atoms
>> fuses (ie there would be 2.7 grams of hydrogen in there).
>> 
>> That's what folks don't realize. Just *how* little fuel it takes to
>> generate a lot of power.
>
> True, but constant heat in the reaction vessel, plus stray neutrons 
> impacting on the containment vessel wall (neutrons aren't affected much by 
> magnetic fields) means that the walls *will* tend to crystalise over time, 
> which is why IMTU relining the reactor is part of the yearly
> maintanance routine.

Well, it helps to remember that there's not a lot of heat *transfer*
between the plasma and the walls.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:53:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> And, for the subject at hand:
>
> A SCRAM involving the control rods is recoverable. Dumping seawater into
> the reactor will wreck it permanently. 

But, if you aviod the conditions that cause a "cold water" accident,
ruining the reactor is preferrable to having it burn through the hull. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:46:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> A heads-up message from someone too busy in RL to work extra physics 
> problems:
>
> I have some more to say on this thread, but I won't be able to run the 
> numbers on it until after finals.  I'll post some information about 
> fusion I think is pretty germain, from sources (instead out of my very 
> fallible head).
>
> Fusion is not total mass-energy conversion, helium is produced as 
> well.

Oops! You *do* have a point there. But a quick re-calculation shows
that 4H->1He converts approximately .7% of the maass to energy. So for
250 MW, that gives a fuel consumption rate of 383 micrograms per
second. That's *still* trivial.

> Also, the only current successful model of hot fusion (i.e. 
> stars) involves enormous temperatures and pressures.  Finally, no 
> power plant ever known has been 100% efficent, and thermodynamics puts 
> theoretical limits on efficency.  

Actually, we have *several* succesful models of "hot" fusion. The
various magnetic confinement reactors have been fusing hydrogen for
*years*. They just aren't producing more energy than it takes to run
them.

Ditto for inertial confinement. And with the IEC process I've described
in previous posts, even a high school student can build a reactor that
demonstrate fusion occuring by the number of neutrons produced. 

Rather than high "temperatures" IEC relies on high *voltages*. Either
way you get the protons moving *fast*.

> I will get out my modern physics textbook and run some numbers over 
> the above points soon.  I'll also try to think of ways a fusion 
> reactor would "run amock", thus requiring heroic PC intervention.

It's going to be pretty difficult since *all* the remotely usable
methods that involve continuous fusion require external electric or
magnetic fields to maintain the conditions that allow fusion. Cut the
fields and the plasma simply disperses. 

Inertial fusion fuses pellets, and if something goes wrong you either
cut the laser or particle beams, or you cut the pellet feed. Being
pulsed, nothing much can go wrong. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:55:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

> I'm probably way behind with this but-- SCRAM--"Super-Critical Rapid Ax Man"
> shutdown.
> Fission reactors work in this way. Fuel, which is some kind of Uranium or
> Plutonium isotope gives off neutrons which cause a chain reaction and
> releases energy and more neutrons. A moderator-like carbon or hafnium is
> used as a neutron moderator. It absorbs neutrons and stops the reaction.  To
> produce energy you pull the moderator, which is typically fabricated into
> rods out of the reactor and the chain reaction starts.

Not quite. The graphite or water in the reactor acts as a moderator.
That is, it slows the fast neutrons produced by fission down until they
are moving slowly enough to *initiate* fission. This bit about slowing
down the neutrons was the critical trick required to make fission work.

The control rods use elements such as boron or cadmium, which *absorb*
neutrons. They let you regulate the reaction. The more rod inside the
reactor, the more neutrons get absorbed, and the reaction slows down. 

> In the early days (at the University of Chicago among other places) the rods
> were pulled up using pulleys and ropes. If the Reactor got out of control
> and had to be shut down in an emergency the ropes could be cut with an ax
> by---you guessed it--- the Super-Critical Rapid Ax Man!!
> Modern commercial reactors use hydraulically operated control rods that are
> typically magnetically latched. In an emergency they are forcefully inserted
> by either mechanical (spring), hydraulic or pneumatic pressure either
> automatically by an alarm system or manually (via a switch).  After use the
> rods can typically be relatched and the reactor brought back to operation.

They also have provisions for flooding the reactor vessel with a borate
solution, which will absorb neutrons like crazy, but is going to make
re-start a royal *pain*, as you'll pretty much have to disassemble the
reactor, clean all the parts, and re-assemble it to get it running
reliably. The borate solution is *intended* to get into everywhere,
which is why cleaning it up so hard.

> I expect that a fusion reactor will also have some kind of automatic
> protective shutdown system, but in the strictest sense it will NOT SCRAM.

Fusion reactions that we can create are *not* self-sustaining. So it's
trivial to shut them down. Cut off the containment fields, or the fuel
feed and it'll stop dead.

It's rather like a particular type of furnace I've heard about. The
fuel will *only* burn if the pressure in the combustion chamber is
several atmospheres. So it requires one *hell* of a "forced draft".
Kill that and the fire goes out immediately.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:42:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SCRAM

In mail you write:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Perceval Lowry wrote:
>> >
>> >>A SCRAM is an attempt to stop a fission reaction quickly by 
>> >>introducing neutron absorbers immediately.  The acronym dates from 
>> >>early fission reactors: the control rods were suspended above hte 
>> >>reactor and lowered in and out to control the rate of reaction.  The 
>> >>safety control reactor axe man cut the ropes with and axe in the event 
>> >>of an emergency.  Nuclear submarines use water to stop the fission.
>> >                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
>> > case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
>> > presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.
>> 
>> Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
>> Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
>> at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction. 
>
> Clancy spins an interesting tale, but his military theory is sometimes weak. 
>  So's his scientific theory.  Now if you'd referenced something like 
> Scientific American or some longhaired math pulled from a theoretical 
> physics publication, I'd buy it.  But Clancy?  A nice read, but I
> wouldn't bet the ranch on his theories.

It's the sort of detail he gets *right*. I've read about it elsewhere.
That was just the most accessible description of it I know of.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:34:08 +1000
From: "Gregory Wall" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: ANZAC Tribute...

As I shan't be here for the weekend of the 25th, I hope no-one minds this
off-topic tribute to fellow Aussies and our Kiwi friends across the
Tasman...

This weekend, Sunday the 25th is ANZAC Day and I would like to post this
tribute.  Those further interested in the story of ANZAC can find some
interesting info at:
http://www.lzs.com.au/~lmutimer/oz_history/oz_history.html

*****  *****

ANZAC Day tribute:
The Anzac Requiem

They shall not grow old,
As we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun
And in the morning,
We will remember them...

Lest we forget

*****  *****

Lest we forget what?  Lest we forget, the folly of war.
Thank-you

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:03:03 +0300
From: murr travel <murrtravel@murrtravel.com.lb>
Subject: Re: SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!

REMOVE US FROM YOU MAILING ADDRESS OR WE WILL START SPAM YOU A LOT OF
CARBIDE

j a c wrote:

> To rwm@mpgn.com.
>
> Respectfully sir, if you don't stop spamming us at traveller@mpgn.com,
> we'll be forced to take genuine action.
>
> Jim Clem
> Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
> enemies.
> --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:04:04 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: M:IW Terran M2134 Gauss sniper rifle

The following was designed with my T4 gunsmith speadsheet.

Name: M2134 Sniper Rifle
Calibre: 4mm Gauss Needle
ROF: 3
TL: 11
Damage: 8
Mag: 15
Rcl-SS: 2
Rcl-Burst: 3
Range: Long
Mass: 7.16 Kg
Reloads: 2.31 Kg
Length: 100.85 cm
Cost: Cr 4054
Laser Sight: Yes
Sound Report: Supressed
Flash: None
Grenade Adaptor: No
Bayonet: No
Bipod: Yes
Tripod: No

The M2134 Gauss sniper rifle was adopted by the Terran Confederation
during the Second Interstellar War and remained its standard issue sniper
rifle until it was replaced by the M2268. The M2134 was bascially a
standard vehicle mounted M2129 VRF Gauss machinegun fitted with a
bipod, electronic sights and recoil absorbing shoulder stock. The M2134
shared 87% commonality with the M2129, with the major difference being
that the M2134 used a small 15 round box magazine rather than the
M2129's 12000 round cassette. The M2134 was capable of firing either
single shots or a 3 round burst. The M2134 could be fitted with a tripod
and accept standard M2129 cassettes for use as a support weapon (with
a cyclic rate of 1200 rpm) and was fitted with an adaptor for an external
power source (339 Kw) on such ocassions.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:30:37 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #482

Scott Davis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not everybody can afford to hire out all the domestic chores. It then becomes
additional work for the family to fit into their "non-working" free-time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
True enough, but most two-worker families will have nights when both
of them are too tired to cook, so they order a pizza. Instead of their 
dinner that night being created by the economically invisible housespouse,
Domino Pizza gets twenty bucks and puts it on their earnings statement.

I saw a news program where a reporter and an accountant analyzed a
"typical" two-income household. The added expenses caused by having
both parents work exceeded the extra income the wife was making.
She cried when she realized that she'd given up so much time with her
children for zero financial gain, it was touchingly sad to see her reap the
bitter results of selfishly wanting a career of her own.

Oh, right, sarcasm: the bias of the article was more blatant than an
overturned sewage truck at a street fair. It seemed that if the family
did anything that made having two careers easier, the accountant charged
the whole amount against the wife's take-home income. A home computer
purchased to help with doing the bills. Every time they ate out or ordered
a pizza. Toys or trips purchased to "make up for not being home with
the kids". I can understand charging the extra travel expenses, professional
wardrobe and child care against the wife's take-home, but at *worst* the
family was breaking even - and that was with the wife at the beginning
or midpoint of her career, her earnings should increase with time.

ObTrav: An official or professional analysis is often not the end of the
story. I know, pretty obvious...I was taking care of a sick kid last night,
gimme a break. :)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:48:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Average Fleet Tactics Skill

Peter Newman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
They were indeed designed to make charecters for play - charecters that
reflect the society they are from.  It is no more  [and no less]
unreasonable to look at the average levels of Fleet Tactics Zhodani
Admirals will have when generated then it is to look at the Psionic
skills they have, or to look at the social atitudes they will have based
on their societies.  When the Alien charecter generation process was
done deliberate choices were made as to how to midify the Imperial human
charecter generation process.  It is by no means unreasonable to use
this _canonical_ data to look at the charecters they will generate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
So what average level will a Zhodani Admiral get from the Zhodani Navy
character generation sequence? That's a very tough question to answer,
isn't it?

While inspection of the character generation sequences can be valuable
(as noted in your comparison of Imperial Navy vs Solomani Navy), 
I can't think of a way to easily and usefully perform a statistical analysis.

Hmmm...look at each navy, determine the % chance an "average" officer
will have of gaining Fleet Tactics skill in any particular year, multiply it
out by some "average" time-in-service factor? That might have some
use...but I'm limited to Vargr, Solomani, Zhodani, Aslan and Third Imperium
for resource materials. Anyone got advanced navy sequences for Darrians,
Sword Worlders, K'Kree and Hiver?

I'd like to look at this from a historical standpoint if possible. What are
the different races known for, when it comes to fleet combat?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:21:06 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #490

> ObTrav? Can't think of one. The Imperium has no equivalent to the CBC.

I disagree (too). IMO, one of the Imperium's main problems is making sure that
everyone, especially the hi-pop planets, gets good exposure to Galangic
to make sure it will be a viable interstellar trade language. Since the
Imperium is basically a (huge) trade federation, it does anything and
everything
to faciliate trade. Promotion of a common language is real near the top
of the list, after ensuring the peace.

I've been meaning to do a write up on the "IBC" for months now, but I never
get
enough free time & spare brain power to do it. :(

> *City is notorious for using "videographers" instead of reporters, who are
> (a) very young and ill-informed, and (b) more interested in artistic camera
> angles than conveying information.

Oh, pooh-pooh Rob, City isn't so bad. If it wasn't for City, we wouldn't have
three quarters of the cable programming in Canada - and there would be no
MST3K!

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:23:42 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT Tech Level 9

Rob (or anyone on the list with GURPS Vehicles...):

I have a favor to ask the list. Can someone design me a 25,000 ton 
(streamlined) and a million ton (totally unstreamlined) hull for GURPS Trav. 
The hull list in the book only goes to 100,000 tons and skips 25kt. I need 
them to convert some HG designs into GT. Even better would be some kind soul 
who would do the entire conversion for me. Please E mail me if you're 
interested so I don't take up anymore bandwidth.

thanks,

Seth

GURPSless in Las Vegas....(well I have the Trav stuff, but I love dumb 
parodies of movie titles...)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:31:03 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality (long)

In a message dated 4/22/99 6:26:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, KenRoney@aol.com 
writes:

<< Great discussion.  I do have one point of disagreement though.  If memory 
 serves me, Traveller canon early on contained the Imperial law that nuclear 
 devices were restricted to government ownership (Imperial and planetary).  I 
 seem to remember an explicit statement, maybe in Mercenary or High Guard 
that 
 civilians were limited to high explosive warheads.  Any comments?
 
 Ken >>

Correct, and correct. Does make good adventure nuggets though...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:04:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/23/99 4:13:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Another good response would be "Yeah, but it only takes *one* to
 administer a beating." >>

I know; I tell these a------s that the ONLY acceptable excuse for violence is 
self defense, so there should be no damn fight in the first place, as both 
parties shouldn't be trying to pick one. I once told a teacher (when I was in 
Jr. High), that I was going to take martial arts lessons, and if I was forced 
to defend myself; I would hold the school responsible for the other parties 
serious injuries, and my emotional distress....She was not amused...Might 
work today though in the States; just get an ambulance chaser...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #492
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 493



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Legal Records...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: SCRAM
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: SCRAM
Subject Change Request
Re: basic Traveller Starter kit
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...
Patches
Passenger Ticket Prices
Re: Patches
Re: Subject Change Request
Re: Patches
Re: Patches
re: Patches
Re: Subject Change Request
Re: patches
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Extraterritoriality
Re: Subject Change Request
Re: How big was the Classical Darrian population?
Re: Patches 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:07:40 -0400
From: "Mindshift Design LLC" <mindshift@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Legal Records...

Regarding legal records.

<snip>

<enter de-lurk mode>

> There is a much closer example of this in Britain.
> Under English law, you need parental permission to marry upto 18
> (and I don't think you can marry before 16)
> Under Scottish Law, you don't need parental permission at 16 or 17.
> So there are frequental references to couples heading across the
> border to get married.
>
> Its possible that these laws have been updated recently.

Nope. They're still the same in Scotland. In fact, anyone in Scotland who
has stayed longer than 2 weeks in the country is considered a resident
(event of secondary residence) of the country, and is eligible to marry.
This is one of the things my (american) wife and I found out last year when
we got married which had the rather nice effect of expediting her UK visa.

Gretna Green is still used by a lot of people to elope to and get married,
although the queues are slightly longer than they used to be, and you now
have to book your wedding in advance instead of just turning up.

- --
Jason Paul McCartan - jasonm@mindshiftdesign.com
CEO
MindShift Design LLC Website - http://www.mindshiftdesign.com
	"Altering Perceptions, Creating Worlds"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:06:08 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/23/99 4:15:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Anybody know if K'kree "herds" are of the "single male, lots of
 females" model (horses), or the "dominant male, a few subordinate
 males, lots of females" model? It'll make a difference in the social
 structure.  >>

The CT Alien module implied the latter...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:01:01 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

>As Clancy does not have a military or physics background, I 
>think we can assume that he got the description of the "cold 
>water accident" from someone who knew better than he did. 

Sometimes. And sometimes he uses artistic license to fill the gaps. I'm
not convinced by the description of the reactor in RSR (basically, a PWR
running at an absurdly high pressure). The description of the accident
makes me twitch, but since I'm not a nuclear physicist I can't work out
exactly what is wrong.

>Ironically, the fact that Clancy doesn't know a damn thing
>about nuclear reactors is what makes his description credible - 
>he clearly does a lot of research, and gets a lot of it right. 

Sounds counterintuitive - if you know what you're talking about, you
don't need to do as much research and you don't misinterpret things.

[Dale Brown]

>ObTrav: A group of mercenary PCs and their highly starship are 
>hired for duty as a naval irregular, tasked to provide a show of
>force only, and, bloodthirsty players being bloodthirsty players, 
>they ignore orders, fire first and accomplish a total tactical 
>victory - only to find out they've created a strategic nightmare, 
>aren't going to be paid, and may well face criminal charges. 

Now why does *that* sound familiar in a Traveller context?

>> Rearward firing missiles? Present technical problems that have not yet
>> been overcome in the West. 
>
>If we felt the need to build rearward firing missiles, we could
>do so in about a year. I'm fairly certain we've acquired R-73s, 
>and technical problems aren't really associated with longitude. :) 

No, but western research hasn't addressed the problems of firing a
missile backwards. Having a missile turn hard after launch is one thing
(not a good thing, mind you, since it's going to burn energy); rearward
launch is another. And has Russia actually deployed their rearward
facing missile, or is it another vapourware product, like so much that
is spoken of these days?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:14:35 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

I'm talking FROZEn H2, not LH2

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition


On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:12:59 -0400 "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com> writes:
>Jim Clem wrote:
>>this should be only available at class A ports.  Freezing H2 is not
>>something easily done
>
>Not to disagree but, at the Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator 
>Facility
>(CEBAF) at Jefferson Lab we make Megaliters of the stuff at GTL 7-8. 
>So does
>NASA even now.  As a matter of fact isn't LHY necessary for any ship 
>in
>Traveller that doesn't have the equipment to use unrefined fuel?
>
>Terry C.
>
>All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
>Not All Who Wander Are Lost
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:18:35 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> 
> So what exactly will happen when a PC sticks their hand in the fushion
> chamber then?  [Assuming their hand does not disrupt the containment.]

Well, there's a loud hisssss as atmosphere rushes into the chamber (fusing
plasma will double as a reasonably good vaccuum) followed by repeated loud
smacking sounds as the chief engineer beats the PC silly for wrecking the
ship's power supply by putting a hole in the containment vessel big enough to
stick their hand through.

Plasma is very hot, but there's so little mass there that it ca't heat
anything sustantial up very much.

OTOH, other compnents of the fusion powerplant can be really dangerous to mess
with. Somewhere along the line a significant portion of the energy given off
by the fusion reaction does get turned into heat, which needs to be gotten rid
of. It just isn't stored in the plasma, but in the MHD coils or steam turbines
or whatever mechanism is used to turn energy from the fusion reaction into electricity.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:44:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Subject Change Request

Greetings, All,

I'd like to request that the OT: RPG Paranoia subject lines be 
changed to more appropriately reflect the various topics that are 
being discussed under that opus.  Specifically, we have a thread on 
Vargr children (and other major races), our own personal experiences 
with growing up in challenged environments, discussions of High 
School RPG Club introductory adventures, and the irresponsibility of 
the American press regarding their archaic attitudes toward RPGs in 
general.  Four very good topics under one umbrella.

Thanks in advance for your attention and your time.  Now back to your 
regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

In Gratitude,
Jason
==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:54:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: basic Traveller Starter kit

In a message dated 4/23/99 1:58:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, roc@kewl.com.au 
writes:

<< Then comes the real hardware.  No PC could start the game with more than 
one
 firearm of a nominated TL, and one normal blade weapon.  I never saw the
 point in arming them to the teeth before play (I never made life that easy
 for them, but never stopped them from acquiring things via roleplay).
 Everything else they needed (ropes/cables, communicators, etc.) was
 roleplayed for. >>

I agree. I also pushed shotguns and carbines a lot, for two reasons. Players 
never seemed to want them (they wanted much more lethal firepower...), and 
they are a lot less vunerable to law level restrictions, since they are not 
hanguns, or automatic weapons, or energy weapons.... Of course they usually 
have to leave them inside a vehicle, so they don't irritate the local 
gendarmes (I damn; I blew my dieroll...).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:56:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

At 06:19 PM 4/22/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Fighting isn't an outlet when everyone outweighs you by 15-20 pounds. One
>learns other coping mechanisms then. Like passive aggression. (I didn't say
>_good_ coping mechanisms!)

Speaking as the kid who was always at the end of the line when we lined up
by height, I agree.  But just showing up and taking the punch gave you a
little credibility.  

And it was quite a shock to Brian Dick when we arrived for sixth grade and
I had three inches and twenty pounds on him...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:07:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yo. SF Bay TMLers...

At 05:22 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>If you could make it down Friday evening, we're having dinner at Denny's.
>
>What time?  I assume it is whatever Denny's is nearest the con?

The Denny's just on the other side of 101 from the Doubletree.  It's on
North First Street.  I'm going to put together a detailed posting including
a map for everybody on the BayConTML list.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:19:51 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Patches

SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.

We have artwork for Scout service patches in-house, so they have a leg up
in getting done, but other possibilities include FT Beowulf crew patches,
Marine, Navy, &  Army units, mercenary outfits and just general "I'm a
Traveller fan" type stuff. (The first patch will probably be something
along the linse of the "Eye in Pyramid" logo but if we decide to do
patches, Traveller is an obvious and early candidate for heavy
representation).

How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
What would you be willing to pay?
What types of patches would you like to see us do?

We can't do dozens of designs at once, so we need to limit ourselves to the
more popular ones, and we will need to charge enough so we don't lose money
selling them.


In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
mine Tuesday. They look great!



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:16:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Passenger Ticket Prices

On 04/22/99 18:30:54 Terry C. wrote:
>On a tanget:Ticket prices are too expensive, even using FT rules. I expect
>not many people will travel to nearby same subsector tourist locations if
>the only way that they can afford to go is to send themselves as cargo.  Is
>there a way economically to explain why tickets on a Main coreward is more
>affordable than out on the fringes? Even when travelling by Liner?

	I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.  Do you want an explanation 
of FT rules or a handwave to justify cheaper travel in the Imperial core?

	The passenger ticket prices in FT are accurate reflections of the cost 
of moving people from one place to another.  If you look at the numbers, 
you'll see that they come straight out of the cargo figures.  High 
passengers take up a 4dton stateroom and get 1dton of baggage allowance.  
5dtons of freight cost 650*5=3250Cr.  Throw in a little extra for food, 
stewards, etc. and 3500Cr/parsec is perfectly reasonable.  Liners are a 
little more expensive, but if you can at all afford it it's worth it 
considering you may be spending several weeks aboard.
	As I said, I'm not sure how to interpret your question about the 
fringes.  If you mean the +4 bonus on final ticket price when no trade route 
exists there's a very simple economic explanation.  Liners don't go to that 
destination and very few ships of any sort go there -- that's why we say 
there's no trade route.  Getting a full load of freight and passengers for 
such a destination can be difficult and once there it can be even harder to 
get a full ship for the trip out.  Not to mention the fact that Frontier 
worlds are poorly patrolled and are therefore much more dangerous.  Simply 
put, travelling to such worlds is risky and passengers must therefore pay a 
risk premium to the ship captain before he'll agree to make the trip.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:21:48 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Patches

Loren Wiseman wrote:
> 
> We have artwork for Scout service patches in-house, so they have a leg up
> in getting done, but other possibilities include FT Beowulf crew patches,
> Marine, Navy, &  Army units, mercenary outfits and just general "I'm a
> Traveller fan" type stuff. (The first patch will probably be something
> along the linse of the "Eye in Pyramid" logo but if we decide to do
> patches, Traveller is an obvious and early candidate for heavy
> representation).
>

I've been doing sysadmin for too long...my first thought was:

"What are you patching and what version does it take it to? What OS and
version? What does it patch? Is mine broke? Do I really want to fix it?
What breaks when you add this patch?"

> How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
> What would you be willing to pay?
> What types of patches would you like to see us do?

MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!! 

Pleeeeeeaaaaaasssssssseeeeeeee have a FT Beowulf patch out by May
19!!!!!!! 

I can go down to the surplus store and get some coveralls or a flight
suit and sew it on. That and a cap with the Scout Service patch would
make it perfect for camping out in line for tickets!!!

Ian...can you call Ditzie and have her pay them a visit if they dont?

(of course this will horrify Alison, who says my geekiness quotient is
getting too high as it is...;-)


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:32:54 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

In a message dated 4/23/99 8:55:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us writes:

<< Greetings, All,
 
 I'd like to request that the OT: RPG Paranoia subject lines be 
 changed to more appropriately reflect the various topics that are 
 being discussed under that opus.  Specifically, we have a thread on 
 Vargr children (and other major races), our own personal experiences 
 with growing up in challenged environments, discussions of High 
 School RPG Club introductory adventures, and the irresponsibility of 
 the American press regarding their archaic attitudes toward RPGs in 
 general.  Four very good topics under one umbrella.
 
 Thanks in advance for your attention and your time.  Now back to your 
 regularly scheduled thread, already in progress... >>

Well; I hate to start a flame; but look at the title: RPG Paranoia. Traveller 
is a RPG, and I for one, am rightly concerned about the backlash against 
RPG's in wake of the Colorado shooting. I think it is pertinent to talk about 
it, if for nothing else than to help figure out how to combat the 
game-banners. Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high school (Green 
Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and 
banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing. It hits home and I DON'T like 
it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the computer 
wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Loren Wiseman wrote:

> SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
> the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
> are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
> subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.

I'd like to see a black patch with a red border, bearing the classic red
"Traveller" logo, and with (and I know this is semi-heretical) the "GURPS"
logo placed such that it does not overpower the Traveller logo visually.
Actually, I'd be keen on the patch not saying "GURPS" on it at all, as
that might increase it's appeal to non-GURPS Traveller fans, and increase
sales.

Next I'd want to see a classic Imperial Sunburst patch, with no text on it
at all. That would be a great patch for fans to wear in any fashion, but
would also be usefull for creating Imperial Uniforms for any service.

After that, more specific patches, such as Scout and other services...

 
> What would you be willing to pay?

$10, but I wouldn't buy a poor quality patch, no matter how inexpensive it
was.

> In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
> mine Tuesday. They look great!

Any chance of a TML discount?   ;)

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:48:59 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patches

In a message dated 4/23/99 9:23:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lkw@io.com 
writes:

<< How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?

I would!

 What would you be willing to pay?

Whatever is appropriate; i.e. the same price I would pay for sports or 
military patches from the various manufacturers.

What types of patches would you like to see us do?

1)The Traveller logo (Traveller in red letters)
2)the Imperial Sunburst (in all colors for Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts)
3)the Scouts patches (the ones from the back cover of "Grand Census" : IISS 
service patch, Exploration office patch, Communications Office patch, 
Imperial Grand Survey patch)
4) a patch for all of the major megaorporations
5) crew patches of the following vessels: Free Trader Beowulf, Far Traders 
Empress Nicolle and Empress Marava, Subsidized Merchant March Harrier, and 
the cruiser Ahzanti High Lightning
6) a patch for the Duke of Regina's own Huscarles
7) logos for the University of Rhylanor, and the Glisten Institute of 
Planetological Studies
8) a new one: a coat of arms for the Alkhalakoi family name
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:58:41 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Patches

Patches wanted, in order:

Free Trader Beowulf

IISS

Azhanti High Lightning - or perhaps the Arrival Vengeance, if we can't
find/make a good enough patch for the 'Lightning. The 'Vengeance had
a good ship's seal by the time of "Final Odyssey".

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:07:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:

>Well; I hate to start a flame; but look at the title: RPG Paranoia. Traveller 
>is a RPG, and I for one, am rightly concerned about the backlash against 
>RPG's in wake of the Colorado shooting. I think it is pertinent to talk about 
>it, if for nothing else than to help figure out how to combat the 
>game-banners. Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high school (Green 
>Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and 
>banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing. It hits home and I DON'T like 
>it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the computer 
>wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.
>
>Seth

Chill, Chill Seth. Don't get to upset. Read the original mail again. He was not
saying that RPG Paranoia was a bas subject heading or that we shouldn't discuss
that. All he wanted was that subject heading be changed as the topic wandered of
form RPG Paranoia stuff to Varg Children or High School introduction games. 

I agree with the original poster that sometimes we should more often change the
subjectfield as the topics split and wander off as the discussion goes on. That
way it becomes easier to follow the threads. Nothing more nothing less. I forget
this my self a lot and it iritates me that I'm not more careful before hitting
the send-button.

With high regards

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:07:02 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: patches

In a message dated 4/23/99 9:23:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lkw@io.com 
writes:

<< How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?

I would!

 What would you be willing to pay?

Whatever is appropriate; i.e. the same price I would pay for sports or 
military patches from the various manufacturers.

What types of patches would you like to see us do?

1)The Traveller logo (Traveller in red letters)
2)the Imperial Sunburst (in all colors for Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts)
3)the Scouts patches (the ones from the back cover of "Grand Census" : IISS 
service patch, Exploration office patch, Communications Office patch, 
Imperial Grand Survey patch)
4) a patch for all of the major megaorporations
5) crew patches of the following vessels: Free Trader Beowulf, Far Traders 
Empress Nicolle and Empress Marava, Subsidized Merchant March Harrier, and 
the cruiser Ahzanti High Lightning
6) a patch for the Duke of Regina's own Huscarles
7) logos for the University of Rhylanor, and the Glisten Institute of 
Planetological Studies
8) a new one: a coat of arms for the Alkhalakoi family name
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:27:24 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

Terry C. writes:

>It's been awhile and I don't have a copy handy, But didn't canon originally
>say that drop tanks were one time use devices, like aircraft drop tanks?
>That would definitely tip the balance against drop tanks for all but
>specialized uses IMHO.

Very true. Unfortunately none of the people in the debate, whichever side
of the argument they favor, are able to come up with a reason why it
shouldn't be possible to design drop tanks to be reusable. So we generally
interpret the comment that drop tanks are one use to mean that since the
ship can't carry them along with them, they are one use _for the ship_,
but can be reused back in the original system.
 
>On a tanget:Ticket prices are too expensive, even using FT rules. I expect
>not many people will travel to nearby same subsector tourist locations if
>the only way that they can afford to go is to send themselves as cargo.  Is
>there a way economically to explain why tickets on a Main coreward is more
>affordable than out on the fringes? Even when travelling by Liner?

Larger ships are more economic to run.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:34:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality

Glenn M. Goffin writes:

>Does the Imperium allow secession? I don't think so. 

There are canonical examples of Imperial worlds leaving (or being abandoned
by) the Imperium. Usually, but not exclusively, in connection with a war.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:40:13 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request


>Well; I hate to start a flame; but look at the title: RPG Paranoia.
Traveller
>is a RPG, and I for one, am rightly concerned about the backlash against
>RPG's in wake of the Colorado shooting. I think it is pertinent to talk
about
>it, if for nothing else than to help figure out how to combat the
>game-banners.

I don't think he was saying it was off-topic and we shouldn't talk about it,
he was just asking us to change the subject header to better reflect the
content of the message. Rob Prior, for example, brought up the idea of a
beginner scenario. Others are talking about their own personal experiences.
Others are talking about the backlash against games of all sorts.

>It hits home and I DON'T like it. It's only a small stretch for these
>people to extend this to the computer wargame Doom, and from
>there to all wargames, like Traveller.


I know what you're saying. For reasons which I've explained at great length,
it really hits home to me, specifically. Those kids and I share a *huge*
number of similarities which are quickly becoming "warning signs" according
to the pop-psychologists and media. Of course, the real problem which leads
kids to an ultraviolent response is not what they've ingested in the way of
movies and games, but what they've endured in the way of teasings and
beatings. The real reasons will not be addressed, and after all of the
bannings and all of the new rules and restrictions in high schools, there's
probably going to be another heartbreaking tragedy like this. That's
unnacceptable.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:50:59 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: How big was the Classical Darrian population?

Rob Eaglestone writes:

>Hans SWAGged a population of 600 million.  Is that all, Hans?
>That's a really impressive TL for so few people!  That is simply
>amazing!

Darrian has always been the atypical example. The thing is, we do know
how big a _percentage_ of Darrian's population that survived the MAGHIZ
(20%). And we know how big the population is in 1100 (between 15 and 24
billion. So I wanted them to have a small a population as possible, in
order to give them some room for population expansion in the 2000 years
between the two dates.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:48:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Patches 

> Patches wanted, in order:
> 
> Free Trader Beowulf
> 
> IISS
> 
> Azhanti High Lightning - or perhaps the Arrival Vengeance, if we can't
> find/make a good enough patch for the 'Lightning. The 'Vengeance had
> a good ship's seal by the time of "Final Odyssey".

A reissue of the Duke's Own Huscarles patch would be cool (4518th Lift 
Infantry 'Strike From Space'), if possible...

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #493
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 494



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Subject [LINE] Change Request
More GT Hulls (long!) (was: Re: GT Tech Level 9)
Putting hands in fusion reactor cores
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Putting hands in fusion reactor cores
Re: Patches
Re: Patches
Re: Patches
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: GT vs CT TL's
Re: Interstellar Trade
Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 
Re: Keith Lost Supplements
Re: SCRAM 
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Patches
Re: A-10 versus MBT?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:50:59 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: A-10 versus MBT?

This is pretty badly OT, but I figured I'd get a good answer
out of y'all.

It was my understanding that real-world, modern main battle 
tanks (M1A1, T-80, and the like) mount main guns in the 100mm 
and up range in order to get a good chance of penetrating the
armor of opposing tanks.

Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and 
then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging 
external features and breaking treads to the point where
the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating? 
Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a 
fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit? 

Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?

I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
just having trouble reconciling things, here.

- -Russell B

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:09:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Subject [LINE] Change Request

> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> 
> In a message dated 4/23/99 8:55:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us writes:
> 
> << Greetings, All,
> 
>  I'd like to request that the OT: RPG Paranoia subject lines be 
>  changed to more appropriately reflect the various topics that are 
>  being discussed under that opus.  Specifically, we have a thread on 
>  Vargr children (and other major races), our own personal experiences 
>  with growing up in challenged environments, discussions of High 
>  School RPG Club introductory adventures, and the irresponsibility of 
>  the American press regarding their archaic attitudes toward RPGs in 
>  general.  Four very good topics under one umbrella.
> 
>  Thanks in advance for your attention and your time.  Now back to your 
>  regularly scheduled thread, already in progress... >>
> 
> Well; I hate to start a flame; but look at the title: RPG Paranoia. Traveller 
> is a RPG, and I for one, am rightly concerned about the backlash against 
> RPG's in wake of the Colorado shooting. I think it is pertinent to talk about 
> it, if for nothing else than to help figure out how to combat the 
> game-banners. Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high school (Green 
> Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and 
> banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing. It hits home and I DON'T like 
> it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the computer 
> wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.
> 
> Seth

Hey, Seth, I'm on your side.  I wrote the original post, and have 
included its content above, so that you can see that all I'm asking 
for is a change in subject -LINES-, not subjects.  All of the topics 
are of interest to me, but they are getting harder to follow while 
they're under the same subject heading.  Just a personal preference 
on organization; keep that content coming.  I apologize that the 
topic of my message did not specify subject -LINES-, and have 
corrected that in my subject above.

I grew up in the buckle of the Bible belt, so I know where you are 
coming from.  Thanks, Seth, for standing up for what you believe in.  
Now, let's get back to the topics at hand.  :)

Your Friend,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:10:04 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: More GT Hulls (long!) (was: Re: GT Tech Level 9)

At 10:23 AM 4/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Rob (or anyone on the list with GURPS Vehicles...):
>
>I have a favor to ask the list. Can someone design me a 25,000 ton 
>(streamlined) and a million ton (totally unstreamlined) hull for GURPS Trav. 
>The hull list in the book only goes to 100,000 tons and skips 25kt. I need 
>them to convert some HG designs into GT. Even better would be some kind soul 
>who would do the entire conversion for me. Please E mail me if you're 
>interested so I don't take up anymore bandwidth.
>
>thanks,
>
>Seth

You didn't specify which TL, so I'm assuming 10 or 12, since it's for a CT
conversion.  If you need TL9, let me know...  (I also have this in Excel 97
format.  If anyone wants that, let me know.)

Hull Tonnage	Volume (cf)	Hull Area	TL10 Mass	TL12 Mass	Hull Cost (in MCr)
Size Modifier
10	5,000	2,000	2	1	0.1	0.24	6
20	10,000	3,000	3	1.5	0.15	0.36	6
30	15,000	4,000	4	2	0.2	0.48	7
40	20,000	5,000	5	2.5	0.25	0.6	7
50	25,000	6,500	6.5	3.25	0.325	0.78	7
60	30,000	6,500	6.5	3.25	0.325	0.78	7
70	35,000	6,500	6.5	3.25	0.325	0.78	8
80	40,000	8,000	8	4	0.4	0.96	8
90	45,000	8,000	8	4	0.4	0.96	8
100	50,000	10,000	10	5	0.5	1.2	8
200	100,000	15,000	15	7.5	0.75	1.8	8
300	150,000	20,000	20	10	1	2.4	9
400	200,000	25,000	25	12.5	1.25	3	9
500	250,000	25,000	25	12.5	1.25	3	9
600	300,000	30,000	30	15	1.5	3.6	9
700	350,000	30,000	30	15	1.5	3.6	10
800	400,000	40,000	40	20	2	4.8	10
900	450,000	40,000	40	20	2	4.8	10
1,000	500,000	40,000	40	20	2	4.8	10
1,100	550,000	50,000	50	25	2.5	6	10
1,200	600,000	50,000	50	25	2.5	6	10
1,300	650,000	50,000	50	25	2.5	6	10
1,400	700,000	50,000	50	25	2.5	6	10
1,500	750,000	50,000	50	25	2.5	6	10
2,000	1,000,000	60,000	60	30	3	7.2	10
2,500	1,250,000	69,624	69.62	34.81	3.48	8.35	11
3,000	1,500,000	78,622	78.62	39.31	3.93	9.43	11
3,500	1,750,000	87,132	87.13	43.57	4.36	10.46	11
4,000	2,000,000	95,244	95.24	47.62	4.76	11.43	11
4,500	2,250,000	103,024	103.02	51.51	5.15	12.36	11
5,000	2,500,000	110,521	110.52	55.26	5.53	13.26	11
5,500	2,750,000	117,771	117.77	58.89	5.89	14.13	11
6,000	3,000,000	124,805	124.81	62.40	6.24	14.98	11
6,500	3,250,000	131,646	131.65	65.82	6.58	15.80	12
7,000	3,500,000	138,313	138.31	69.16	6.92	16.60	12
7,500	3,750,000	144,823	144.82	72.41	7.24	17.38	12
8,000	4,000,000	151,191	151.19	75.60	7.56	18.14	12
8,500	4,250,000	157,426	157.43	78.71	7.87	18.89	12
9,000	4,500,000	163,541	163.54	81.77	8.18	19.62	12
9,500	4,750,000	169,543	169.54	84.77	8.48	20.35	12
10,000	5,000,000	175,441	175.44	87.72	8.77	21.05	12
15,000	7,500,000	229,893	229.89	114.95	11.49	27.59	12
20,000	10,000,000	278,495	278.50	139.25	13.92	33.42	12
25,000	12,500,000	323,165	323.17	161.58	16.16	38.78	13
30,000	15,000,000	364,932	364.93	182.47	18.25	43.79	13
35,000	17,500,000	404,430	404.43	202.21	20.22	48.53	13
40,000	20,000,000	442,084	442.08	221.04	22.10	53.05	13
45,000	22,500,000	478,196	478.20	239.10	23.91	57.38	13
50,000	25,000,000	512,993	512.99	256.50	25.65	61.56	13
55,000	27,500,000	546,646	546.65	273.32	27.33	65.60	13
60,000	30,000,000	579,294	579.29	289.65	28.96	69.52	13
65,000	32,500,000	611,045	611.05	305.52	30.55	73.33	14
70,000	35,000,000	641,992	641.99	321.00	32.10	77.04	14
75,000	37,500,000	672,211	672.21	336.11	33.61	80.67	14
80,000	40,000,000	701,764	701.76	350.88	35.09	84.21	14
85,000	42,500,000	730,708	730.71	365.35	36.54	87.68	14
90,000	45,000,000	759,089	759.09	379.54	37.95	91.09	14
95,000	47,500,000	786,950	786.95	393.47	39.35	94.43	14
100,000	50,000,000	814,325	814.33	407.16	40.72	97.72	14
125,000	62,500,000	944,941	944.94	472.47	47.25	113.39	14
150,000	75,000,000	1,067,068	1067.07	533.53	53.35	128.05	14
175,000	87,500,000	1,182,560	1182.56	591.28	59.13	141.91	14
200,000	100,000,000	1,292,661	1292.66	646.33	64.63	155.12	14
225,000	112,500,000	1,398,255	1398.25	699.13	69.91	167.79	15
250,000	125,000,000	1,500,000	1500.00	750.00	75.00	180.00	15
275,000	137,500,000	1,598,403	1598.40	799.20	79.92	191.81	15
300,000	150,000,000	1,693,865	1693.86	846.93	84.69	203.26	15
325,000	162,500,000	1,786,708	1786.71	893.35	89.34	214.40	15
350,000	175,000,000	1,877,197	1877.20	938.60	93.86	225.26	15
375,000	187,500,000	1,965,556	1965.56	982.78	98.28	235.87	15
400,000	200,000,000	2,051,971	2051.97	1,025.99	102.60	246.24	15
425,000	212,500,000	2,136,603	2136.60	1,068.30	106.83	256.39	15
450,000	225,000,000	2,219,591	2219.59	1,109.80	110.98	266.35	15
475,000	237,500,000	2,301,055	2301.05	1,150.53	115.05	276.13	15
500,000	250,000,000	2,381,102	2381.10	1,190.55	119.06	285.73	15
525,000	262,500,000	2,459,824	2459.82	1,229.91	122.99	295.18	15
550,000	275,000,000	2,537,307	2537.31	1,268.65	126.87	304.48	15
575,000	287,500,000	2,613,624	2613.62	1,306.81	130.68	313.63	15
600,000	300,000,000	2,688,843	2688.84	1,344.42	134.44	322.66	15
625,000	312,500,000	2,763,024	2763.02	1,381.51	138.15	331.56	16
650,000	325,000,000	2,836,222	2836.22	1,418.11	141.81	340.35	16
675,000	337,500,000	2,908,487	2908.49	1,454.24	145.42	349.02	16
700,000	350,000,000	2,979,865	2979.87	1,489.93	148.99	357.58	16
725,000	362,500,000	3,050,399	3050.40	1,525.20	152.52	366.05	16
750,000	375,000,000	3,120,126	3120.13	1,560.06	156.01	374.42	16
775,000	387,500,000	3,189,082	3189.08	1,594.54	159.45	382.69	16
800,000	400,000,000	3,257,301	3257.30	1,628.65	162.87	390.88	16
825,000	412,500,000	3,324,813	3324.81	1,662.41	166.24	398.98	16
850,000	425,000,000	3,391,646	3391.65	1,695.82	169.58	407.00	16
875,000	437,500,000	3,457,827	3457.83	1,728.91	172.89	414.94	16
900,000	450,000,000	3,523,381	3523.38	1,761.69	176.17	422.81	16
925,000	462,500,000	3,588,330	3588.33	1,794.17	179.42	430.60	16
950,000	475,000,000	3,652,697	3652.70	1,826.35	182.63	438.32	16
975,000	487,500,000	3,716,502	3716.50	1,858.25	185.83	445.98	16
1,000,000	500,000,000	3,779,763	3779.76	1,889.88	188.99	453.57	16


          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:26:46 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Putting hands in fusion reactor cores

Bruce Johnson writes:
<snipped>
"Plasma is very hot, but there's so little mass there that 
it ca't heat anything sustantial up very much."
<snipped>

	Considering the power generation of a Traveller
	power plant, there must be lots of energy available
	to heat up tender extremities such as human hands.
	I tend to assume that the plasma is highly
	compressed under extreme pressure, so that the 
	energy density is significant. After all, how does
	a PGMP-12 cause damage?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:53:54 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

You must remember, the A-10's 30 mm gun is longer than a Volkswagon.  It
fires at IIRC 1600 rnds per minute.  Each full shell is larger than my
forearm.  And the round is a depleted uranium penetrator.  They'll
probably just shred the armor of a heavy tank, or at least beat the H**L
out of it.  They also carry Maverick anti armor missiles, as well as iron
bombs, cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  All told, a truly deadly system.

Jim Clem
Every once in a while, declare peace.  It confuses the hell out of your
enemies.
- --Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:03:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Putting hands in fusion reactor cores

Well, the problem is that energy generation (refer to Leonards post that
_micrograms_ of hydrogen fusing is enough to produce 250 MW) stops dead
the moment you bust the accuum in the containment chamber, since the air
instantly cools and dilutes the plasma, whcih turns back into ordinary
hydrogen.

Now, if the containment is such that the reactor 'core' can be opened up
_without_ killing the reaction, then the PC gets blinded and burned by
the energy from the fusion reaction. Sort of like looking right at a
(very, VERY) small star.

PGMP-13's do their damage via magical handwavium plasma, or artifically
generated lightning.

They heat a great deal more matter to high temps than a fusion reactor
does; fusion guns do so AND start initiating fusion a little bit.

They are, in fact, much harder to swallow than fusion reactors...they're
there because we need 'blasters'...

Think of a PGMP or FGMP as being somewhere between a controlled fusion
reaction (a power reactor) and an uncontrolled one (thermonuclear bomb),
big differences between the two extremes.


Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> <snipped>
> "Plasma is very hot, but there's so little mass there that
> it ca't heat anything sustantial up very much."
> <snipped>
> 
>         Considering the power generation of a Traveller
>         power plant, there must be lots of energy available
>         to heat up tender extremities such as human hands.
>         I tend to assume that the plasma is highly
>         compressed under extreme pressure, so that the
>         energy density is significant. After all, how does
>         a PGMP-12 cause damage?
> 
> Peez

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:02:49 -0400
From: "Will Richards" <RichardW@jwfc.js.mil>
Subject: Re: Patches

What kinds of patches would I want to Buy?!!!!!



1: the Imperial Sunburst  in Orange, Yellow , Red, Green, Blue, etc....
2: a patch for the Duke of Regina's own Huscarles (4518th Lift  Infantry )
3: crew patches (OR HATS) of the following vessels: Free Trader Beowulf and  the Ahzanti High Lightning
4: A Scout patch  
5: a Jump Troop badge with combat stars etc... ( to go with number 2)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:08:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Patches

	One thing that I'd like to see are patches that look "real".  That
is, the patches should look like what they are supposed to look like in
the Traveller universe.  Ideally, I would like to see patches without
company names, but as this may be asking alot, I'd at least like to at
least see them be relatively inconspicuous.

Specific suggestions:
Imperial Sunburst in various colors.
IISS Logo.
FT Beowolf crew patch.
Various military patches, with division numbers and the like.

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:27:07 -0500
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

I would be most interested.Up to $10, if the quality warranted it

I would like to see the list seth put out, in addition, a patch for each of the Major
Non-Imperial states (ie. Zhodani, Vargr, Aslani, etc).

Just my lurkers .02cr worth.


>
>
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:19:51 -0600
> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
> Subject: Patches
>
> SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
> the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
> are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
> subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.
>
> We have artwork for Scout service patches in-house, so they have a leg up
> in getting done, but other possibilities include FT Beowulf crew patches,
> Marine, Navy, &  Army units, mercenary outfits and just general "I'm a
> Traveller fan" type stuff. (The first patch will probably be something
> along the linse of the "Eye in Pyramid" logo but if we decide to do
> patches, Traveller is an obvious and early candidate for heavy
> representation).
>
> How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
> What would you be willing to pay?
> What types of patches would you like to see us do?
>
> We can't do dozens of designs at once, so we need to limit ourselves to the
> more popular ones, and we will need to charge enough so we don't lose money
> selling them.
>
> In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
> mine Tuesday. They look great!
>
> Loren Wiseman
>      Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>      Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>      SJ Games
>      LKW@IO.COM
>      (512) 447-7866 VOX
>      (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:48:59 EDT
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Patches
>
> <tidbits snipped>What types of patches would you like to see us do?
>
> 1)The Traveller logo (Traveller in red letters)
> 2)the Imperial Sunburst (in all colors for Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts)
> 3)the Scouts patches (the ones from the back cover of "Grand Census" : IISS
> service patch, Exploration office patch, Communications Office patch,
> Imperial Grand Survey patch)
> 4) a patch for all of the major megaorporations
> 5) crew patches of the following vessels: Free Trader Beowulf, Far Traders
> Empress Nicolle and Empress Marava, Subsidized Merchant March Harrier, and
> the cruiser Ahzanti High Lightning
> 6) a patch for the Duke of Regina's own Huscarles
> 7) logos for the University of Rhylanor, and the Glisten Institute of
> Planetological Studies
> 8) a new one: a coat of arms for the Alkhalakoi family name
>   >>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:39:10 -0500
From: Tom Floyd <tmfloyd@usit.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Russell Bornschlegel wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
> Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and
> then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging
> external features and breaking treads to the point where
> the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating?
> Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a
> fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit?
>
> -Russell B

Mainly because it fires a shell which is depleted uranium.  Because the
round is so dense, it penetrates much more armor.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:36:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT vs CT TL's

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>Except it's not.  It's, by self proclamation, "Alternate."

...and by it's licence...

>Do you really
>expect T5 to use "TTL?"  This isn't the GTML, after all...

No. TL is Traveller. GTL is GURPS Space ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:05:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Trade

Rob Eaglestone <washi@metronet.com> wrote:

>I'm still not convinced of the need for trade beyond a sector.
>High value, low volume goods can be produced by industrial
>worlds inside the sector -- perhaps only a subsector away.

But there will be worlds in an adjacent subsector in the next sector?

Hmm.

Worlds like Vincennes are likely to have trade from at least a sector away
(TL17).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:19:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Hook: Saving the Throne 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>There was a story about the culture shock of a high tech society exporting
>'toys' to a lower tech society called 'Mozart In Mirrorshades'.  Can't
>remember what book it was in, though.

There is a copy in 'mirrorshades: the cyberpunk anthology' edited by Bruce
Sterling (c)1986.

Publisher  Paladin UK (Grafton, Collins) 1988, reprint 1990
ISBN 0-586-08782-6

Don't know if it's still in print...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:31:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Keith Lost Supplements

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:
>Yes, Paul is later in delivery than he anticipated, but when hasn't
>that been the case in publishing.  I'm just as anxious for Marc to
>get T5 finished and published.
>
>In both cases, however, it's better for them, and for us, for them
>to take their time and get the jobs done right.  Right?

Yup. Abso-fragging-lutely dammit! ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:22:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> AFAIK (And I am by no means qualified to answer this), this is something
>> that only happens on nuclear-powered ships (I've only seen it in context of
>> a sub, but I see no reason this can't be used in other vessels).  A SCRAM
>> is the process of flooding the reactor with seawater in order to cool it
>> rapidly.  This is only done in _extreme_ emergencies, as it pretty much
>> destroys the reactor and floods the local ecosystem with tons of very
>> radioactive water.  AFAIK this has never actually been done IRL.

You can also kill th ereactor if the control rods fail by flooding it with
a material like boron which kills the reaction by inhibiting neutron
motion.

Gas cooled reactors like the AGR have loads of small pellets which are
blown in IIRC.

Not sure about those PWRs you Americans are so fond of ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:48:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Russell Said;
>Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
>Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and
>then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging
>external features and breaking treads to the point where
>the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating?
>Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a
>fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit?

The Depleted Uranium 30mm rounds of the A-10's main gun ("GAU-8 Avenger")
are capable of penetrating the side and rear armor of almost any vehicle.
It (probably, under most circumstances) cannot penetrate the frontal or
turret front armor of MBTs which, as you point out, is made to face other
MBTs with their 120mm main guns.

The number of rounds fired and the high velocity of the round make
penetration over time more likely than if it were a one-shot weapon.

The length of the gun barrel is responsible for increased velocity over,
say, the 30mm gun on an AH-64 Apache helo.

see http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm for immense
amounts of detail.

>Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?

The Maverick missile delivers a 125lb shaped or 300lb delayed fuse warhead
(for use against ships, I think) up to (in theory) 17 miles.  It uses "TV
Guidance" which means a computer memorizes the shape of the target when the
pilot pulls a trigger with the target in the crosshairs, then the missile
follows that image down to the impact point.

>I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
>tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
>just having trouble reconciling things, here.

In general, the gun is for softer targets while the missiles are used for
heavier targets, mostly because the tanks are generally protected by
anti-air assets, and the missiles allow "stand off" attacks.  Anyone who
ever played "A-10 Tank Buster" knows how hard it is to keep that gun
trained when someone is shooting at you.

Something to remember, however, in the "undefended" airspace like Iraq, is
that the Mavericks cost about $125,000 each while the GAU-8 rounds are
certainly much less for a comparable burst.

A-10s also often carry other weapons like cluster bombs and laser guided or
unguided "iron bombs".

Obtrav:  The Ramparts need pylons or weapon bays (small ones) if they are
going to carry cheap expendibles for the Close Air Support mission; or do
they just blast every target with lasers?

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:45:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 11:19 AM 4/23/99 -0600, you wrote:

>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?

MeMeMeMe!!!

>What would you be willing to pay?

I'll trade my wife.  OK, seriously, I'd be willing to pay anything for good
quality patches.

>What types of patches would you like to see us do?

The aforementioned Scout patches, Imperial Sunbursts, who about a Free
Trader Beowulf crew patch?

If I get the Ground Forces job, I'll have all sorts of ideas...

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:50:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

At 11:50 AM 4/23/99 -0700, you wrote:

>It was my understanding that real-world, modern main battle 
>tanks (M1A1, T-80, and the like) mount main guns in the 100mm 
>and up range in order to get a good chance of penetrating the
>armor of opposing tanks.
>
>Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
>Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and 
>then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging 
>external features and breaking treads to the point where
>the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating? 
>Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a 
>fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit? 
>
>Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?
>
>I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
>tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
>just having trouble reconciling things, here.

The 30mm gun fires DU ammo, and being above lets the pilot target the
thinner top armor of the tank (especially the armor over the engine).

A-10s also carry AGM-65 Maverick missiles for tank killing, and in the Gulf
the crews came up with a poor's man's FLIR by using the night sight on the
missile to route information to the pilot.

Having seen A-10s in action, my best guess is that they scare the targets
to death.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #494
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Friday, April 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 495



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Theme
Re: How big was the Classical Darrian population?
Re: A-10 versus MBT? 
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Patches
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Patches
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Patches
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
A10 vs Tanks
CT and MT Jump Drive and Maneuver Drive Limitations
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Extraterritoriality (long)
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Extraterritoriality
Patches
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Celtic Matriarchy
Re: Patches
GT: Trojan Reaches
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
Re: Subject [LINE] Change Request
Re: Subject Change Request
Re: More GT Hulls (long!) (was: Re: GT Tech Level 9)
Fw: A-10 versus MBT?
Re:A Question, Anson (off all topics!)...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:52:58 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Traveller Theme

I'm trying to find/build a Win95/98 theme for Traveller.
Has anyone done this? If not, does anyone know where
I can get decent freeware software for building icons?

Yo, Jesse,

Would you mind terribly if I used one or two of your
postings from your "Patinir Belt" site for the wallpaper?
I give you my word I won't make a cent off the theme and
I *will* most definitely sing your praises in the
theme's accompanying text file in the hopes of drumming
up some business for you.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:57:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: How big was the Classical Darrian population?

On 04/23/99 20:50:59 Hans wrote:
>
>Rob Eaglestone writes:
>
>>Hans SWAGged a population of 600 million.  Is that all, Hans?
>>That's a really impressive TL for so few people!  That is simply
>>amazing!
>
>Darrian has always been the atypical example. The thing is, we do know
>how big a _percentage_ of Darrian's population that survived the MAGHIZ
>(20%). And we know how big the population is in 1100 (between 15 and 24
>billion. So I wanted them to have a small a population as possible, in
>order to give them some room for population expansion in the 2000 years
>between the two dates.

	Since such a small proportion of the population survived the Maghiz, 
we could make the pre-Maghiz population virtually anything we wanted.  I'm 
not overly concerned with population growth in the intervening 2000 years 
because there's no need for it to have been particularly large.  
	Net of immigration, the populations of most of the developed world, 
including the US and Japan, are actually _declining_.  Or more accurately, 
if current trends continue they will begin to decline when kids being born 
today have reached their child-bearing years.  
	In any case, the Darrians could actually have had a bigger population 
pre-Maghiz than circa-1100.  After all, they had more colony worlds then, 
didn't they?


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:02:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT? 

> You must remember, the A-10's 30 mm gun is longer than a Volkswagon.  It
> fires at IIRC 1600 rnds per minute.  Each full shell is larger than my
> forearm.  And the round is a depleted uranium penetrator.  They'll
> probably just shred the armor of a heavy tank, or at least beat the H**L
> out of it.  They also carry Maverick anti armor missiles, as well as iron
> bombs, cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  All told, a truly deadly system.

Also, the ROF of that 30 mm gun is a LOT higher than the 100 mm main gun of an MBT.  All else fails, the A10 can *CHEW* its way through.

BTW, Jim, where's the page for the TSW campaign????

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:02:41 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

The Thunderbolt has a variety of weapons that it will use against MBTs.  
Hellfire Missiles being the main one.  It's 30mm cannon will indeed ake out 
MBTs as the Iraqi T-72s discovered.  The 30mm fires Armor Piercing URANIAM 
TIPPED rounds tha do penitrate even reactive armor through both power and 
sheer volume.

As a side note M1A1s mount 120mm now and the T-80 never really existed, it 
was a dressed up T-72 made to make NATO scurry around for a while in a panic.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:05:14 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Depleted Uranium, yah that's the stuff

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:24:22 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Patches


>>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
>MeMeMeMe!!!


    Same here

>>What would you be willing to pay?
>I'll trade my wife.  OK, seriously, I'd be willing to pay anything for good
>quality patches.


    Same here.

>>What types of patches would you like to see us do?
>The aforementioned Scout patches, Imperial Sunbursts, who about a Free
>Trader Beowulf crew patch?


    Imerial Marine Corps, The Duke of Regina's Own Husskilairs (sp), other
famous Unit Patches.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:37:05 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

Tascelt@aol.com wrote:

>Other clans as in Scottland, Ireland, parts of France were indeed patriarcal
>and passed lineage down by naming kids Mac Ewin (son of Ewin) or O'Conner
>(from Conner).
>
>The better books that mention this subject are:
>
>"The Celts" by Gerhard Herm
>
>"A History of Scotland"  by J.D. Mackie

'Highlanders' (pub Penguin IIRC) is also a good source on the Highland
areas of Scotland.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:33:42 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

I would like to see a "Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars" patch

Along the lines of  "Psychic Wars Veteran" with the roman numeral 
1000 under it with a fist squeezing a Psi symbol layed over a 
starfield.  Always wanted one.

BTW ... for those of you who don't know, this phrase came off the 
Heavy Metal soundtrack.  I have no clue who wrote or sang the song.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:40:03 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

Current claims are that the A-10's cannon will penetrate ANY armor.
The rate of fire combined with the depleted U round make for a nasty tank
killer.
If you haven't seen file footage of A-10's killing tanks on the firing
range, you are missing something.
The Chainsaw sound of the cannon is scary.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:48:06 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 04:08 PM 4/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>	One thing that I'd like to see are patches that look "real".  That
>is, the patches should look like what they are supposed to look like in
>the Traveller universe.  Ideally, I would like to see patches without
>company names, but as this may be asking alot, I'd at least like to at
>least see them be relatively inconspicuous.


For the Military and Scout patches, I would like to see both "full color"
and subdued green and black versions made.  Somehow I just can not picture
a full color patch on my M-65 field jacket.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right,but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 16:54:26 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

On 04/22/99 at 12:54 PM,  Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> said:

>If you use the fuel up all in one go, then you have the whole week in
>jump to refine the reserve tank into hydrogen

I don't have books or notes handy, so I have a question..

Let's say, I need 140 m^3 of LH2 for a jump 1.  What volume of water
would contain 140 m^3 worth of LH2?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:03:04 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: A10 vs Tanks

Armor on the top of Main Battle Tanks is very thin.  a burst of 30mm
depleted uranium shells will rip right through it, no matter what tank.
Once past the top armor, the rounds can hit unprotected vital components
from the inside like electronics, hydraulic and automotive systems,
AMMUNITION, and the crewmen themselves.   The top armor on tanks is
effective agains heavy machinegun fire and artillery fragments, but the 30mm
depleted uranium round is a killer.  The 25mm depleted uranium round fired
from US Bradley Fighting Vehicles penetrated T-72s during Desert Storm!

Long Live Traveller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:05:57 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: CT and MT Jump Drive and Maneuver Drive Limitations

Is the J6 limit for Jump drives and the 6G limit for thruster plates just
arbitrary numbers?  Are there any traveller sources (besides FFS1) that
discuss faster drives?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:09:39 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>

> ObTrav, possibly in poor taste, so sue me:
> Disgruntled schoolkids with PGMPs. 

Traveller character generation starts a lot of PCs out at ages 34, 38,
42, 46 -- I have to believe that some of them have families.  It's an
issue that I raise when I'm having a player generate a character.  

So Jane Mercenary, ex-Marine Commando FcCmdr, 6 terms, has obtained some
heavy hardware. She doesn't carry it all with her while she's
gallivanting around the sector solving other people's problems, and her
very intelligent and technically astute children, who haven't seen her,
much less gotten any positive attention from her, in months, in two
years, have figured out how to unlock the weapons locker and power up
the PGMP-13.  The problem is, none of them can fit into mom's battle
dress -- so they decide to build a pintel mount for it on the family's
grav SUV.  Jesedipere Diplomatic High School, look out!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:12:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality (long)

> From: KenRoney@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality (long)
> 
> Great discussion.  I do have one point of disagreement though.  If memory 
> serves me, Traveller canon early on contained the Imperial law that nuclear
> devices were restricted to government ownership (Imperial and planetary).
> I 
> seem to remember an explicit statement, maybe in Mercenary or High Guard
> that 
> civilians were limited to high explosive warheads.  Any comments?

Striker provides a good discussion of the Imperial rules of war.  It
contains the often seen statement:

"[O]ne prohibition is clear and firm throughout the Imperium: use or
possession of nuclear weapons, if discovered, and regardless of their
size or type, will almost certainly trigger Imperial intervention.  The
Imperium alone retains the rights to such weapons, because of their
extreme destructive powers and the relatively low tech level at which
they can be manufactured."

Striker, Book 2, Rule 78, at 44; see Supplement 11, Library Data N-Z, at
30-31 (same).

That statement must be taken in context, however.  The Imperium allows
warfare among its members as a safety valve to release tensions that
cannot be resolved through mediation. It has developed certain rules to
govern such warfare so as to protect Imperial stability.  These rules
remain uncodified so that they will not develop any precedential value
that could limit Imperial power to intervene whenever it deems it
necessary.  

The sources of instability are long-term economic dislocation and
excessive extra-planetary influence.  Thus the rules of war prohibit
extensive destruction of the infrastructure and eradication of civilian
populations, as well as attempts by off-world governments or commercial
interests to seize control of worlds.  

This is the context of the prohibition on nuclear weapons:  The
regulation of warfare on member states, not in space.  They invariably
destroy infrastructure and civilian populations, and are easy to make,
so must be prohibited in war between Imperial member states.  

The Imperial rules of war don't address raiding of interstellar
commerce, because that's already prohibited as piracy.  Nor do the rules
address warfare in space between fleets of warring member states. 
That's already prohibited as contrary to naval security -- after all,
each member's naval forces are nominally part of the Imperial Navy.  So
member states' warships may possess nuclear weapons (indeed, they must,
as part of the IN).  

Imperial member states are not prohibited from possessing nuclear
weapons -- they're just prohibited from using them in conflicts with
other member states.  If they're attacked by a foreigner, why would they
be prohibited from having or using nuclear weapons?  

Possession of nuclear missiles by civilian ships that get involved in
supporting a ground war will trigger Imperial intervention, obviously. 
In the absence of the context in which the rules of war apply, however,
the Imperium doesn't prohibit civilian ships -- or anyone else -- from
possessing nuclear missiles.  (Member states may have different rules,
of course -- it's unlikely that even a law level 1 world will allow
private possession of nuclear weapons.)  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:26:08 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> How about a scenario where a bunch of high school students discover
> that the principal is actually an alien agent there to brianwash the
> kids? 

Come on, even a "hard" science fiction game like Traveller needs some
fiction.  This would just be role-playing real life.

Ob my high school experiences:  My friend Steve and I were once assigned
to move a bunch of videotapes from a classroom to the room in the
building that had the most even and cool temperature -- the principal's
bathroom.  He had a flare gun and a small caliber semi-auto rifle in
there, just in case we students got out of hand, I suppose.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:39:52 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> >Does the Imperium allow secession? I don't think so. 
> 
> There are canonical examples of Imperial worlds leaving (or being abandoned
> by) the Imperium. Usually, but not exclusively, in connection with a war.

Of course (Querion subsector has many examples), but settlements to
resolve a war do not constitute secession, which is the voluntary
withdrawal of one state from a group of states.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:48:27 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Patches

> From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
 
> SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
> the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
> are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
> subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.

We had a discussion about this a few weeks ago.  I think it's a great
idea.  I love patches, and will buy a lot of them if they're well-done
(and SJG's quality control is very good) and not too expensive.  Can you
keep them under $3? under $5?  

> From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
> 
> Next I'd want to see a classic Imperial Sunburst patch, with no text on it
> at all. That would be a great patch for fans to wear in any fashion, but
> would also be usefull for creating Imperial Uniforms for any service.

The Imperial sunburst would be my first choice of a patch, especially
the classic black-and-red color scheme.  

I'd also buy:

4518th Lift Infantry
Free Trader Beowulf
Scout service patches, for example from World Builder's Handbook
(and probably anything else you put on the market)

A few travel patches would be cool, too.  You know what I mean, like the
ones you put on your luggage that say "San Francisco, California" and
have a picture of the Golden Gate Bridge -- but these should of course
be "Fulacin/Rhylanor: I visited the Octagon House" or something like
that.

Also, please make some of the patches small enough to put on hats --
like 2 to 2.5 inch heights.  Maybe you could do some in different sizes
(like the Imperial sunburst)?

Thanks,

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:44:04 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

Agree with everything you say. I was poinitng out that the present concepts
of government and nationhood - even of race - did not apply to the Celtic
peoples in what is now the British Isles. They were - as you know - a
mishmash of wildly different tribes and you can say damn near *anything*
about them and probably be right somewhere, at some point in history. What
you can't really do is make judgements from that and use them as a basis for
discussing such a different society as we have today.

BTW, where did the 'Berkley' comment come from?

[original snipped]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:59:19 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Celtic Matriarchy

This is getting seriously off-topic, but since you asked I will supply some
references for you (see below). As regards your 'what is left?' question -
that was my whole point. Their society was dramatically different from ours,
and to judge theirs on the basis of ours is the cardinal sin in historical
studies.

References:

Chronicles of the Celts: Iaian Zaczek
The Celts of the West: Venceslas Kruta & Werner Forman
The Gods of the Celts: Miranda Green
Barbarians and Romans: Justine Davis Randers-Pehrson
The Triumph of the West: J.M. Roberts
Celtic Myths and Legends: T.W. Rolleston
Brigantia: Guy Ragland Philips
Legends of the Celts: Frank Delany
Celtic Britian and Ireland: Lloyd and Jennifer Laing

That should give you lots to build on, but I would also advise a good
translation of the Mabinogion as well.

- -----Original Message-----
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com <jmaclean@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 20 April 1999 21:46
Subject: Celtic Matriarchy


> Do you have some reputable sources for this?
> The reference to "the goddess" I also find suspect.  It is a term I've
>only heard from "New Age" sources and it was again not something ever
>brought up in my course.  I also am wondering in what way the queen might
be
>said to rule if her husband had responsibility for management and warfare.
>What's left?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:11:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
> Subject: Re: Patches
> 
>         One thing that I'd like to see are patches that look "real".  That
> is, the patches should look like what they are supposed to look like in
> the Traveller universe.  Ideally, I would like to see patches without
> company names, but as this may be asking alot, I'd at least like to at
> least see them be relatively inconspicuous.

Me, too!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:15:14 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT: Trojan Reaches

Just throwing an idea out...I thought it would be a good idea for a new sector sourcebook...Since one has never been done..to my "limted" knowledge... :)
SJG would be giving a lot back to the Traveller universe...I mentioned this to Martin Dougherty..and he said he'd be glad to write it...maybe if we got a ground swell going...Just an idea...Now back to the discussion on Vargr food choices :) Or was that Vargr as food...Hmmmm... :)
Mike

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:13:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

Eris Reddoch writes:

> I don't have books or notes handy, so I have a question..
> 
> Let's say, I need 140 m^3 of LH2 for a jump 1.  What volume of water
> would contain 140 m^3 worth of LH2?

*snide answer*: no quantity of water.  Water doesn't contain liquid hydrogen,
it contains hydrogen locked in a covalent bond with oxygen.
*more helpful answer*: by weight, water (H20) is 1 part hydrogen to 8 parts
water, and is 1 metric ton per cubic mere, which means there are 110 kilograms
of hydrogen.  One m^3 of LH2 is 70 kilograms, so you need 140 * (70/110) cubic
meters of water, or about 90 cubic meres.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:19:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject [LINE] Change Request

In a message dated 4/23/99 12:19:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us writes:

<< Your Friend,
 Jason >>

Sorry; Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:17:22 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

In a message dated 4/23/99 11:12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no writes:

<< Chill, Chill Seth. Don't get to upset >>

I consider myself "chilled"...:-)

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:20:45 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: More GT Hulls (long!) (was: Re: GT Tech Level 9)

In a message dated 4/23/99 12:23:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jg42@cornell.edu writes:

<< You didn't specify which TL, so I'm assuming 10 or 12, since it's for a CT
 conversion.  If you need TL9, let me know...  (I also have this in Excel 97
 format.  If anyone wants that, let me know.) >>

thanks, Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:34:10 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: A-10 versus MBT?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 12:02 PM
Subject: A-10 versus MBT?


>This is pretty badly OT, but I figured I'd get a good answer
>out of y'all.
>
>It was my understanding that real-world, modern main battle
>tanks (M1A1, T-80, and the like) mount main guns in the 100mm
>and up range in order to get a good chance of penetrating the
>armor of opposing tanks.
>
>Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
>Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and
>then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging
>external features and breaking treads to the point where
>the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating?
>Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a
>fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit?

All of the above, and then some.  First of all, it does throw a lot of
projectiles (1800/minute), ensuring multiple hits.  Next, since the rounds
come from an airplane, *hopefully* they will be arriving from above the
target, thus striking the more vulnerable top armor- and if the pilot is
doing his job, also probably hitting from the side/rear.

>
>Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?

That is the usual practice, however the gun will kill most tanks- certainly
older T-72s and anything in the West without Chobham-type armor.
>
>I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
>tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
>just having trouble reconciling things, here.
>

Well, even though the gun is only 30mm, it has several advantages.  First of
all, the REST muzzle velocity is 1067m/ second.  To this we can add the
A-10s velocity of around 150m/s.  Not bad, as the main gun (120mm) of the
Abrams is only putting out ~1600m/s, and has to (usually) go through the
front armor.  Also, the size differential isn't as large as it seems.  The
120mm actually fires a sub-calibre penetrator- actual diameter classified,
but of course, easily obtainable on the net.  As the 30mm doesn't use a
sabot, I suspect actual diameter at target is similar.  While I have reason
to believe that the 120mm penetrator weighs more, keep in mind it is
designed to, if necessary, penetrate any portion of the target's armor.
A final note, I saw training films several times that showed 30mm rounds
perforating the side turret armor of M-48A1s (therefor, around 3-4 of
case-hardened steel) and continueing through the other side in the thinner
regions.  Still photos from the Gulf showed multiple penetrations over every
facet of T-55 armor.  Also, the M-1 proved resistant to complete penetration
over the front and side aspects (can we say, "friendly fire?").  Note that
the above is only partially anecdotal, a friend brought back pictured from
his time with 1st Cav.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:59:45 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re:A Question, Anson (off all topics!)...

>>Oook Oook
>>
>
>Damn it!  I gotta ask Anson... The "Oook Oook" at the bottom of your posts,
>does that mean (Shades of Terry Pratchet) "Librarians Rule" where you are?
>
>- --  The Roc

The Oook Oook definitely comes from Mr Pratchet, but it can mean anything
you want it too :P
Feel free to invent any meaning for it that you desire.
Basically I've run out of anything sensical to place at the end of my
posts...

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #495
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 23 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 496



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: Patches
Re: Patches
Patches? We NEED steenking patches!
Re: GT
re: Patches
Re: Patches
A-10 myth busting
Re: ANZAC Tribute...
Re: Patches
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 myth busting 
Re: Patches
Re: Patches 
Re: A-10 versus MBT?
Re: A-10 myth busting
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #482
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #490
Re: Subject Change Request
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Extraterritoriality (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #495
Re: GT: Trojan Reaches
Re: SCRAM
Re: Patches
Re: Patches

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:22:39 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <ansonb@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

>You must remember, the A-10's 30 mm gun is longer than a Volkswagon.  It
>fires at IIRC 1600 rnds per minute.  Each full shell is larger than my
>forearm.  And the round is a depleted uranium penetrator.  They'll
>probably just shred the armor of a heavy tank, or at least beat the H**L
>out of it.  They also carry Maverick anti armor missiles, as well as iron
>bombs, cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  All told, a truly deadly system.

Hi, the A-10's cannon can fire at rates of up to 4200 rpm and the aircraft
can carry up to 16 000 lb of ordinance on one fuselage and ten wing pylons
(at least that's what Janes says).

Cheers,
 Anson.

Oook Oook

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:28:33 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patches

In a message dated 4/23/99 1:31:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ybrekp@mtco.com 
writes:

<< I would like to see the list seth put out, in addition, a patch for each 
of the Major
 Non-Imperial states (ie. Zhodani, Vargr, Aslani, etc). >>

That reminds me; how about a patch from each of the regiments of the Imperial 
Guard....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:35:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patches

In a message dated 4/23/99 3:10:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
felix@felixcafe.com writes:

<< I would like to see a "Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars" patch
 
 Along the lines of  "Psychic Wars Veteran" with the roman numeral 
 1000 under it with a fist squeezing a Psi symbol layed over a 
 starfield.  Always wanted one.
 
 BTW ... for those of you who don't know, this phrase came off the 
 Heavy Metal soundtrack.  I have no clue who wrote or sang the song.
  >>

Blue Oyster Cult?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:48:08 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Patches? We NEED steenking patches!

Sounds very cool, Loren.  My votes would be:

Imperial Sunburst, Red or Yellow on Black
IISS patches (including all of the cool First In branch patches)
Imperial Marine Corps insignia set (Service Patch, branch specialization
patches for Infantry, Armor, Jump Troops and Ship's Troops, and some rank
insignia)
Imperial Navy insignia set (Service patch, some Ship patches, branch
specialization patches (pilot, engineer, gunnery etc) and some rank
insignia)
Beowulf and March Harrier crew patches
Imperial Starport Authority patch

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 17:44:55 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GT

On 04/23/99 at 01:04 AM,  "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>>I am not trying to start a flame war.  But i would like to know what
>>everyones thought are on GT.

>Overall it an excellant product. The line started off with a few
>_minor_ problems with production quality, but these seem to have been
>ironed out (and they pale into insignificance when compared with IG's
>output) and the 2nd printing should deal with them. 

I'm in total agreement with Andrew here.  Frankly, I haven't seen
the cover binding problem that others have mentioned, and although
there has been some errata it hasn't been bad.

>I don't like the GURPS system (just a matter of personal taste, I'm
>a T4/T5 kind of guy), but they are excellant source material for
>all flavours of Traveller. 

There are things I don't like about the GURPS implementation of
Traveller.  Specifically, I want a Traveller style career system for
Character Generation, a Task Level system, TL's (not GTL's) and
UWP's.  GT doesn't give me that, but it doesn't make it hard for me
to graft them onto the rest of its system, either.

Good things.  The background and source material is good for any
Traveller campaign.  The integration of all the GURPS books gives
you a lot of flexibility.  Vehicles is good and includes weapon
construction rules, I'm not sure I don't like FFS better, though.
The ship building rules in GT remind me of what we were going for
with QSDS and SDS, not perfect, but well done.  I haven't used the
Ship Combat rules yet (I prefer more roleplaying there), but they
look sound.  Far Trader may or may not be perfect (depending on who
you listen to here on the list ;), but either way it does contain a
huge amount of good information for any campaign where merchants and
trade will be involved.

Overall, I think the GT material has kept the "Traveller feel", has
been of good quality and excellent utility.

>I'd give GT a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10.

I think I'd give GT a B+.  If First In is "first rate" I might boost
that grade up to an A- 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:16:57 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: re: Patches

I'm going to make a list of all the patch ideas and place them on my
website. If you have made up art that you would like to see in a patch,
please forward it to me and I'll put it up too.

http://www.w-link.net/~official-stitch/traveller

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:12:10 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Patches

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Patches
>
>I can go down to the surplus store and get some coveralls or a flight
>suit and sew it on. That and a cap with the Scout Service patch would
>make it perfect for camping out in line for tickets!!!
>
>Ian...can you call Ditzie and have her pay them a visit if they dont?
>
>(of course this will horrify Alison, who says my geekiness quotient is
>getting too high as it is...;-)

Bruce,

Ditzie doesnt wanna goooo to Texas-wexas, even though her toys are probably
legal there (is there a maximum size for 'handguns' under Texas law ?) ...
however ...

SJ Games are in Austin, TX, right ? We are here at the Canberra branch
office of Famile Spofulam ('Hospitals Blown Up While U Wait'), so if
someone can give me the exact distance we could build the Meson Gun here,
and just Get The Message Across.

Ian Whitchurch
Personal Assistant to Dithammer Spofulam, Executive Vice-President
High Energy Solutions Division
Famile Spofulam

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:16:03 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: A-10 myth busting

> Also, the ROF of that 30 mm gun is a LOT higher than
> the 100 mm main gun of an MBT.  All else fails, the
> A10 can *CHEW* its way through.

The firing rate obtainable on a test stand is rarely
the rate that any weapon fires in the field.  Due to
the potential for jamming, the GAU-8 usually fires
at the lower rate of 300 rounds per minute.  And, more
often then not just fires a seven round burst.  (One
quick squeeze of the trigger.)

If the hog pilot has to chew through armor, he deserves
to be shot down.  The airplane is agile enough that he
can choose which side to attack.

Don't expect the rounds for the A-10 to bounce around
the interior.  Either the round will completely pass
through the vehicle or it will encounter enough mass to
vaporize the round.  [30mm DU is not explosive, but 
vaporized armor and depleted uranium is enough to flash
fry the crew and usually cook off the ammo stored inside.]
That's why most tanks seem to explode when shot by an
A-10.

30mm DU rounds are similar to sabot rounds in that they
have a penetrator and a sleeve.  The sleeve is a wide
band of common steel and the silvery tip is just an 
aluminum 'wind screen' to make the round more aerodynamic.

- --
Todd Zircher, 
  ex-USAF Aircraft Specialist Systems Specialist,
  A-10A Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:16:24 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: ANZAC Tribute...

Lest we forget what?  Lest we forget, the folly of war.
Thank-you

- --  The Roc
Well said, Roc.
If it weren't for the ANZACS, WW2 would most likely have had a different 
ending.  Certainly, it would have been a far more bloody afair if you guys 
didn't hold the line, both in the Pacific And Africa....

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:24:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Patches

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
however ...
> 
> SJ Games are in Austin, TX, right ? We are here at the Canberra branch
> office of Famile Spofulam ('Hospitals Blown Up While U Wait'), so if
> someone can give me the exact distance we could build the Meson Gun here,
> and just Get The Message Across.

According to my handy dandy Newton, 8790 miles, more or less. Dunno if
that's as the meson flies or great circle distance, tho'

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:24:37 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

In a message dated 4/23/99 2:56:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kaleja@rahul.net 
writes:

<< 
 I can envision the 30mm shredding the armor of APCs, light
 tanks, and other sub-MBT targets pretty easily, but I'm
 just having trouble reconciling things, here. >>

The 'Hogs cannon can penetrate the deck armour of most, if not all, MBTs. 
Anbd at the rate of fire a GAU8 puts out a round is *bound* to find a week 
spot in even the main armour... But for a sure kill they'll use Maverics on 
MBT's and save the canon for lite armoured vehicles...

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:29:46 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

In a message dated 4/23/99 4:12:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
journeyman2000@juno.com writes:

<<  cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  >>

I hope you mean FAE fuel bombs...unless FAO 'Shwartz' has harnessed the 
"Smarm" energy of Barney the Dinosaur...Which *HAS* to be against the Haque 
Convention....

BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:25:20 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

In a message dated 4/23/99 11:56:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kaleja@rahul.net writes:

<< Does the A-10 use it's 30mm gun on MBTs successfully? How?
 Hitting thinner deck armor? Blowing off reactive armor and 
 then punching through a lighter layer underneath? Damaging 
 external features and breaking treads to the point where
 the target is mission-killed, without ever penetrating? 
 Simply throwing enough projectiles at the target to give a 
 fair chance of a Golden BB/critical hit? 
 
 Or does the A-10 have to use missile ordnance on MBTs?
  >>

All of the above. They killed T-72's in the Gulf, so the gun works...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:47:58 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

From: RnLschaefr@aol.com <RnLschaefr@aol.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

><<  cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  >>
>
>I hope you mean FAE fuel bombs...unless FAO 'Shwartz' has harnessed the
>"Smarm" energy of Barney the Dinosaur...Which *HAS* to be against the Haque
>Convention....


    No, it isn't to be honest with you, they have not put in the annoying
purple dino clause in, but when they do, Barney & Dino will be at the top of
the list.

Legate Legion, Old Gaming Fart
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:49:57 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting 

> > Also, the ROF of that 30 mm gun is a LOT higher than
> > the 100 mm main gun of an MBT.  All else fails, the
> > A10 can *CHEW* its way through.
> 
> The firing rate obtainable on a test stand is rarely
> the rate that any weapon fires in the field.  Due to
> the potential for jamming, the GAU-8 usually fires
> at the lower rate of 300 rounds per minute.  And, more
> often then not just fires a seven round burst.  (One
> quick squeeze of the trigger.)

Still, that's 5 rounds per *SECOND*.  A nice set of teeth to chew with.
 
> If the hog pilot has to chew through armor, he deserves
> to be shot down.  The airplane is agile enough that he
> can choose which side to attack.

True, but the option is still there.  *MANY* 30mm slugs hitting something will 
burst through when a 100mm shell won't.
 
> Don't expect the rounds for the A-10 to bounce around
> the interior.  Either the round will completely pass
> through the vehicle or it will encounter enough mass to
> vaporize the round.  [30mm DU is not explosive, but 
> vaporized armor and depleted uranium is enough to flash
> fry the crew and usually cook off the ammo stored inside.]
> That's why most tanks seem to explode when shot by an
> A-10.

I don't expect it to.  Cooking off the ammo is quite sufficient, thank you.  
Especially when that cooked ammo turns into shrapnel.
 
> 30mm DU rounds are similar to sabot rounds in that they
> have a penetrator and a sleeve.  The sleeve is a wide
> band of common steel and the silvery tip is just an 
> aluminum 'wind screen' to make the round more aerodynamic.

And they can *STILL* chew through armor.

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:52:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Patches

> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>

> For the Military and Scout patches, I would like to see both "full color"
> and subdued green and black versions made.  Somehow I just can not picture
> a full color patch on my M-65 field jacket.

Maybe subdued versions should be gray and black.  Green is a color of
the Terran landscape.  Gray and black will work in most urban, starport,
and shipboard environments.

Vargr entrepeneur to customer:  "But hunter's orange and electric blue
_is_ the subdued version."

(That's sort an in-joke for alumni of Boise State University, whose
colors until recently were almost neon hunter's orange and electric blue
(you should've seen the stadium in the 1970s and '80s).  The colors are
a little muted now.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:13:51 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Patches 

> > From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> 
> > For the Military and Scout patches, I would like to see both "full color"
> > and subdued green and black versions made.  Somehow I just can not picture
> > a full color patch on my M-65 field jacket.
> 
> Vargr entrepeneur to customer:  "But hunter's orange and electric blue
> _is_ the subdued version."

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:40:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT?

RnLschaefr@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 4/23/99 4:12:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> journeyman2000@juno.com writes:
> 
> <<  cluster bombs, FAO bombs, etc.  >>
> 
> I hope you mean FAE fuel bombs...unless FAO 'Shwartz' has harnessed the
> "Smarm" energy of Barney the Dinosaur...Which *HAS* to be against the Haque
> Convention....
> 
Nah...they're just dropping Foreign Area Officers....

> BobS.

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:41:11 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting

"Todd A. Zircher" wrote:

> > Also, the ROF of that 30 mm gun is a LOT higher than
> > the 100 mm main gun of an MBT.  All else fails, the
> > A10 can *CHEW* its way through.
>
> The firing rate obtainable on a test stand is rarely
> the rate that any weapon fires in the field.  Due to
> the potential for jamming, the GAU-8 usually fires
> at the lower rate of 300 rounds per minute.  And, more
> often then not just fires a seven round burst.  (One
> quick squeeze of the trigger.)

I also wanted to note that the recoil from that gun tends to stall the
plane.  Thus you don't really want to fire too many rounds at a time.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:10:47 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #482

>ObTrav: An official or professional analysis is often not the end of the
>story. I know, pretty obvious...I was taking care of a sick kid last night,
>gimme a break. :)
>
>Walt Smith

So should we charge a professional nurse, on night wages, against your
income? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:14:44 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #490

>> *City is notorious for using "videographers" instead of reporters, who are
>> (a) very young and ill-informed, and (b) more interested in artistic camera
>> angles than conveying information.
>
>Oh, pooh-pooh Rob, City isn't so bad. If it wasn't for City, we wouldn't have
>three quarters of the cable programming in Canada - and there would be no
>MST3K!

MST3K???

As to City's reporting, I've been present at too many events that they've
covered to trust them. News as entertainment. (When I take my kids on tour
there, that's what they get told: news is entertainment.)

Comparing CBC to City? CBC all the way.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:20:00 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Subject Change Request

>Well; I hate to start a flame; but look at the title: RPG Paranoia. Traveller
>is a RPG, and I for one, am rightly concerned about the backlash against
>RPG's in wake of the Colorado shooting. I think it is pertinent to talk about
>it, if for nothing else than to help figure out how to combat the
>game-banners. Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high school (Green
>Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and
>banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing. It hits home and I DON'T like
>it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the computer
>wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.

Yes, and this stuff belongs under the "RPG Paranoia" heading.  But we
should retitle the other stuff (and keep discussing it, because (a) it's
interesting, and (b) it's Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:49:51 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

> ObTrav: A challenge. Write a starter scenario for Traveller, suitable for
> use by beginners to role-playing (let alone Traveller).  Something a high
> school gaming club could use with a minimum of preparation. Include all the
> explanatory material and notes so that new gamers could start right away,
> and have a reasonable chance of success in the adventure.  Choose a theme
> that teenagers would get into.

After a couple of hours, it just struck me.  Take a cue from another
part
of this thread:  Treat them like adults.

I've introduced two of my nephew's (and some of their friends to
Traveller 
with 
"Across the Bright Face."  It does have a nice cinamagraphic (is that
a word?) intro, and dumps the players into a rather nasty situation.

As I side note, one of my nephews ran through a bit I hacked up from
memory out of an old issue of High Passage involving methane deposits,
mineral
rights and a deal which goes sour.  I've run this thing about 4 or 5
times,
and his group was the only ones who was able to talk his way out of it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:59:14 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Extraterritoriality (long)

In a message dated 4/23/99 3:19:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
gmgoffin@pacbell.net writes:

<< 
 In the absence of the context in which the rules of war apply, however,
 the Imperium doesn't prohibit civilian ships -- or anyone else -- from
 possessing nuclear missiles.  
  >>

I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, the ONLY time civilian ships 
would be carrying nuclear weapons would be if they were issued them by the 
navy, if they were "nationalized" as auxilleries during an Imperial war...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:13:56 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #495

Blue Oyster Cult wrote "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" its on one of their
regular albums and the movie soundtrack

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:04:12 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Trojan Reaches

In a message dated 4/23/99 3:32:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< .I thought it would be a good idea for a new sector sourcebook. >>

would this be a starmap of each sector? I would love to see that. I picture 
an updated "Atlas of the Imperium", but with the detail of the Spinwards 
Marches map that came with CT and MT...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:24:04 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: SCRAM

>> Nope - rods. Although dumping water into the reactor is possible, in
>> case of a thermal runaway. If you ever need this, you are likely to be
>> presented with an immediate sequence of pressing problems.
>
>Check the description of a "cold water accident" in either "Red Storm
>Rising" or "Hunt for Red October". Too much cold water in the reactor
>at the wrong time can *cause* a runaway reaction.

The injection of high density cold water can indeed result in more neutrons
adding to the chain reaction. In a loss of coolant accident rods are first
inserted and then emergency cooling water is injected.  In some designs this
water is doped with a neutron absorbing rare earth. After this mixture is
injected the reactor is essentially unrepairable as the mixture coats
everything.

Clancy is describing the result of an uncontrolled introduction of cold
seawater into an operating reactor.

Terry C

I'm not a physicist, but I play one at the Thomas Jefferson National
Accelerator Facility, sort of ;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:51:10 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

At 02:51 PM 1999 04 23 -0400, you wrote:
>SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind, not
>the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller patches
>are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what sort of
>subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.
>
>We have artwork for Scout service patches in-house, so they have a leg up
>in getting done, but other possibilities include FT Beowulf crew patches,
>Marine, Navy, &  Army units, mercenary outfits and just general "I'm a
>Traveller fan" type stuff. (The first patch will probably be something
>along the linse of the "Eye in Pyramid" logo but if we decide to do
>patches, Traveller is an obvious and early candidate for heavy
>representation).
>
>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?
>What would you be willing to pay?
>What types of patches would you like to see us do?
>
>We can't do dozens of designs at once, so we need to limit ourselves to the
>more popular ones, and we will need to charge enough so we don't lose money
>selling them.

The ones I'd be most interested in getting are:
- - The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service logo 
- - The Imperial Sunburst, in the classic yellow-on-black
- - Imperial Navy
- - The Solomani Confederation -- some kind of "official" logo

>In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I got
>mine Tuesday. They look great!

That's good to hear. I ordered mine a month ago, knowing that they were
still "at the printer". I figured, get my order in now rather than risk
having them sell out first. :)

I'll be watching my mailbox...

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:01:46 -0700
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com>
Subject: Re: Patches

Loren Wiseman wrote:

> What would you be willing to pay?
> What types of patches would you like to see us do?

About $5 or $6 is what most sci-fi patches go for.
The 4518th Lift Inf. Regt. seems to be a favorite (and it would be my
first choice).

Kristian

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #496
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 497



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: GT: Trojan Reaches
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #496
Re: Passenger Ticket Prices
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...
What Happens to Fuel Impurities?
Re: A-10 versus MBT? 
Re: Patches
MST3K! is no more
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: A-10 myth busting?
Re: MST3K! is no more
GURPS: Solomani Rim
Re: Patches
Re: ANZAC Tribute...
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
12mm Libertad rifle
Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:58:07 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>Well; I hate to start a flame; but look at the title: RPG Paranoia.
Traveller 
>is a RPG, and I for one, am rightly concerned about the backlash against 
>RPG's in wake of the Colorado shooting. I think it is pertinent to talk
about 
>it, if for nothing else than to help figure out how to combat the 
>game-banners. Where I live for example (Las Vegas); one high school (Green 
>Valley High) has already resorted to confiscating black trenchcoats, and 
>banning the wearing of black "Goth" clothing.

I'm just wondering what they consider "Goth" clothing. All black clothing,
or just certain things? As someone who can be frequently found wearing all
or mostly black...

>It hits home and I DON'T like 
>it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the
computer 
>wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.

I don't like it either, but after a period of time it will pass. I've been 
gaming since my first year of university, 20 years ago, and I've seen anti-
game hysteria come and go before. Those who believe the hysteria generally 
can't be swayed by reason. Their minds are already made up, and the events
just fit their facts. But eventually, their attention will divert to something
else.

- -- g




     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:05:52 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Trojan Reaches

>Just throwing an idea out...I thought it would be a good idea for a new
sector sourcebook...Since one has never been done..to my "limted"
knowledge... :)
>SJG would be giving a lot back to the Traveller universe...I mentioned
this to Martin Dougherty..and he said he'd be glad to write it...maybe if
we got a ground swell going...Just an idea...Now back to the discussion on
Vargr food choices :) Or was that Vargr as food...Hmmmm... :)
>Mike

I agree with you -- it would be nice to see new sectors published.
However, Trojan Reaches is right next door to the Spinward Marches. I'd
prefer to see a sector in an area of the Imperium that hasn't been heavily
investigated before. I was thinking of the sectors on the trailing frontier
of the Imperium -- Delphi, or the Glimmerdrift Reaches.

I'd also like to see the GT version of the Solomani Rim sector, perhaps
as part of a larger book on the Solomani Confederation.

- -- glenn




     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 00:11:25 -0400
From: "jcarlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>>Frankly, I figure that the *fact* that they were ostracized played a
>>big part in their going psycho. I heard one TV commentator making some
>>comment about "Without guns we'd just get a fist fight". He obviously
>>has never been one of the "outsiders". Because the "underclass" type
>>kids *don't* get into fights. For two reasons. First, they always
>>*lose*. Especially against "jocks". Second, *they* will be the ones who
>>get into trouble, not the "normal" kids.
>
>
>I heard the same comment today, and I had the same reaction. To further
>illustrate your second point, a high school friend of mine was frequently
>harassed and threatened with beatings. He walked up to his locker one day
>and saw a threat and several disparaging insults. Later on during the day,
>he was called down to the disciplinarian who told him he better remove it
by
>the end of the day or he'd get in trouble.

The problem is that schools want to foster conformity. It's part of their
job. Homogeneous students are easier to teach. They do not get into trouble.
Jocks are treated better because they feed the needs of the parents in
regards to competition and winning for the old school. The "normal" kids are
the ones who adults see as copies of themselves.
Strangely enough this is a relatively recent occurrence. The creation of
peer groups among kids is a result of the American (and other western
patterned) school systems that lump children together by age.  This practice
is less than 150 years old. It results in what is in reality a separate
social system from the adult social groups.  These social groups are
completely independent, and no adult can really understand what happens in
them.  They tend to have certain characteristics that remain the same from
year to year. The jock phenomenon, for example, which is sustained because
jocks are rewarded with special privileges by adults. And the uncool kid
group, because the members of this group often are ignored by adults and
weaker than the jocks. Because the jocks have been taught that physical
prowess and winning is the most important thing it is alright to terrorize
the uncool kids.  Adults also give them short shift, because they cause
friction by their very existence, aren't athletic and make them feel
uncomfortable, due to their nonconformity.

obtrav: Sorry I can't think of anything. Sorry for the rant.

Terry C.

All That is Gold Does Not Glitter
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:16:02 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #496

>>Oh, pooh-pooh Rob, City isn't so bad. If it wasn't for City, we wouldn't
have
>>three quarters of the cable programming in Canada - and there would be no
>>MST3K!
>
>MST3K???

Mystery Science Theater 3000. What I want to know is, if CITY is able
to play them, then why does the Space web site say they *can't*???

Note to those of you south of the border: CITY-TV is a Toronto independent
broadcast tv station which also owns two radio stations in Toronto (AM and
FM),
an independent tv station in Barrie (60 miles north of Toronto), and a few 
specialty cable networks, including Space (a SF channel) and MuchMusic (rock 
videos). Space's website (www.spacecast.com), the FAQ explains that they can't
get MST3K for broadcast because not only would they have to get the rights 
to the MST3K episodes themselves (easy to do), they'd *also* have to get
the rights to broadcast the movies which the episode contain (much more
difficult to do)! At least there's some hope: several MST3K episodes are
available on video, and a video store not far from where I live carries
them.

And for those of you not familiar with MST3K to begin with: it's a show
on the Sci-Fi channel in the US which is essentially a vehicle for showing
really bad movies (mostly bad SF B-movies) -- this guy is imprisoned aboard
a space station with a few robots, and they're forced to watch bad movies.
They provide a running commentary on the movie as it screens (you can see
their silhouettes in the bottom corner of the screen), and sometimes it's
side-splittingly funny.

Apologies for the off-topic diversion.

- -- Glenn


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:34:50 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Passenger Ticket Prices

- -----Original Message-----
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com <jmaclean@ix.netcom.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 23 April 1999 17:11
Subject: Passenger Ticket Prices


>  Not to mention the fact that Frontier
>worlds are poorly patrolled and are therefore much more dangerous.
Simply
>put, travelling to such worlds is risky and passengers must therefore
pay a
>risk premium to the ship captain before he'll agree to make the trip.


errr....
surely Frontiers are *where* you patrol....
after all, how many Zhodani invasion fleets are going to turn up in
Massilia.... <g>
The *risk* may be high, but that is why the patrols are there.

Just my Cr 0.02

Regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:48:46 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 23 April 1999 18:30
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks


>Terry C. writes:
>
>>It's been awhile and I don't have a copy handy, But didn't canon
originally
>>say that drop tanks were one time use devices, like aircraft drop
tanks?
>>That would definitely tip the balance against drop tanks for all but
>>specialized uses IMHO.
>
>Very true. Unfortunately none of the people in the debate, whichever
side
>of the argument they favor, are able to come up with a reason why it
>shouldn't be possible to design drop tanks to be reusable. So we
generally
>interpret the comment that drop tanks are one use to mean that since
the
>ship can't carry them along with them, they are one use _for the
ship_,
>but can be reused back in the original system.


<snip ticket price observation>

>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen


The main reasons for aircraft drop tanks being single use are:
1) Early (WWII) ones were made of aluminised cardboard or plywood;
2) They don't tend to stay in one piece after falling c.20,000 ft and
bouncing <g>
3) they're often dropped over the sea or enemy territory, making
recovery...errr...*interesting* <g>

As I said in an earlier, and apparently ignored,  post <g>.....

>as an example of DT's that need overhauling think of the Shuttle
>Boosters (I know these are solid fuel rockets, but they are
>essentially akin to a drop tank with an integral engine....sort of...
><g>)

>as to Trav DT's, they would need checking for cracks after each drop,
>replacement of explosive bolts, checking fuel outflow pipe seals
>(failed O-rings are nasty :( ...  ) etc.

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 00:49:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Non-reusable jump tank idea...

On 04/23/99 at 03:13 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:

>*snide answer*: no quantity of water.  Water doesn't contain liquid
>hydrogen, it contains hydrogen locked in a covalent bond with oxygen.
>*more helpful answer*: by weight, water (H20) is 1 part hydrogen to 8
>parts water, and is 1 metric ton per cubic mere, which means there
>are 110 kilograms of hydrogen.  One m^3 of LH2 is 70 kilograms, so
>you need 140 * (70/110) cubic meters of water, or about 90 cubic
>meres.

Thank you, snide answer and all. I can't say I've heard of a cubic mere, though. ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:17:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: What Happens to Fuel Impurities?

When a ship runs unrefined fuel through its purification plant, what
happens to all the impurities?  Are they simply discarded?  Would a
merchant ship, equipped with storage tanks for the impurities, be able
to make a few extra credits selling said impurities?  After all, the
most common hydrogen-bearing compounds have some combination of oxygen,
nitrogen, and/or carbon, all of which are valuable elements in their own
right.  Would habitual use of skimmed fuel by a ship help maintain life
support systems, either by simply providing additional oxygen, or by
adding valuable compounds to an Endurance-type life support system?

Enquiring minds want to know....

- -- 
- ------
|    |  AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
|JOLT|
|COLA|  Visit my Web site at:
|    |
- ------  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 02:36:37 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT? 

From the top, i have no doubt an A10s weapon will shred a modern MBTs armor.  
Rear and flanks, too, probably.  The front?  I doubt it, though i'd just as 
soon put an MPAT on the Hind (or A10) that was shooting its' gun (rather than 
missiles, which the MCD is for) at me.  A tanks top armor is very thin and 
not meant to take direct hits from respectable weaponry.  It's a bad 
situation when armor has to worry bout aircraft, though...  

Assorted replies:

> As a side note M1A1s mount 120mm now and the T-80 never really existed, it 
> was a dressed up T-72 made to make NATO scurry around for a while in a 
panic.

Err.  Wrong.  There is a T-80 (better suspension and fire control).  There's 
a T-90 now, too, though both of em, IMO, are yet more pieces of trash and the 
Russians can't make nearly enough given the state of their economy.

> front armor.  Also, the size differential isn't as large as it seems.  The
> 120mm actually fires a sub-calibre penetrator- actual diameter classified,

LOL.  I doubt it's classified.  Any ol ammo tech type would be able to tell 
u.  I've never measured one, but it's probably bout 3 or 4 inches thick.  

> > If the hog pilot has to chew through armor, he deserves
> > to be shot down.  The airplane is agile enough that he
> > can choose which side to attack.
> 
> True, but the option is still there.  *MANY* 30mm slugs hitting something 
will 
> burst through when a 100mm shell won't.

A 120mm MPAT (or the foreign equivalent) will destroy an A10 or anything else 
in the air.  If the A10 is going against a modern MBT, he's going to want to 
use his mavericks.  That's what they're there for.  Anything else is starting 
to get risky.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 02:36:38 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Patches

I'd most like to see a Reformation Coalition patch and others from the New 
Era and Rebellion factions.  I dunno if this is doable, due to contract 
stuff...  Next I'd like maybe a "do your own design" patch thingy.  Like have 
an AZH patch, along the guidelines from Arrival Vengeance.  Adding a sunburst 
(varying colors) and customizing the number, etc.  

Then maybe other patches, like Sunbursts, a better Solomani one (that simple 
symbol just don't cut it IMO).  Hivers, Aslan Clans, noble crests of the 3I 
and RoM, etc.  


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:35:48 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: MST3K! is no more

MST3K! is finishing its final season. It is soon to be no more.
Just thought I would share a sad note with everyone.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 03:21:32 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia


>I'm just wondering what they consider "Goth" clothing. All black clothing,
>or just certain things? As someone who can be frequently found wearing all
>or mostly black...


At the moment, it's simply black clothing. After all, *good* people don't
wear black clothes... unless it's a tasteful black evening dress or tuxedo
(each on the appropriate sex of course).

>I don't like it either, but after a period of time it will pass. I've been
>gaming since my first year of university, 20 years ago, and I've seen anti-
>game hysteria come and go before. Those who believe the hysteria generally
>can't be swayed by reason. Their minds are already made up, and the events
>just fit their facts. But eventually, their attention will divert to
something
>else.


It must really be dependent on your location. Besides, what people
*remember* and the hardcore anti-gamers are two different things. The
hardcore anti-gamers are almost always religious zealots who miss the point
all across the board. The people who half-remember the news reports and the
nasty rumors are usually just normal people. You happen across them when you
least expect to.

It will *pass* from public scrutiny, but (from my own experience) it will
not pass from public memory. Your own mileage may vary, of course.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 07:44:36 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: A-10 myth busting?

In a message dated 4/23/99 9:04:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jpettit@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< "Todd A. Zircher" wrote:
 
 > > Also, the ROF of that 30 mm gun is a LOT higher than
 > > the 100 mm main gun of an MBT.  All else fails, the
 > > A10 can *CHEW* its way through.
 >
 > The firing rate obtainable on a test stand is rarely
 > the rate that any weapon fires in the field.  Due to
 > the potential for jamming, the GAU-8 usually fires
 > at the lower rate of 300 rounds per minute.  And, more
 > often then not just fires a seven round burst.  (One
 > quick squeeze of the trigger.)
 
 I also wanted to note that the recoil from that gun tends to stall the
 plane.  Thus you don't really want to fire too many rounds at a time.
 
  >>
Did you seriously mean to imply that an A-10 could maintain a sustained 
firing rate on a target long enough to "chew" its way through the armor? Any 
A-10 pilots or ground crew out there that would like to comment on that? I'm 
an ex-grunt who use to watch A-10s from the ground. I always thought those 
"jets" had to loop and swing to much to have a sustained fire on a specific 
target with their guns. Other question, which MBT are we talking about, the 
T-64/72 family or the modern USA/European tanks? 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 07:48:14 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: MST3K! is no more

In a message dated 4/24/99 2:50:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
redroach@flex.net writes:

<< MST3K! is finishing its final season. It is soon to be no more.
 Just thought I would share a sad note with everyone.
 
 TV >>

What is MST3K? 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:14:45 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: GURPS: Solomani Rim

Does anybody know who is writting this? or Navies?


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:23:34 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Patches

>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?

One more here.

>What would you be willing to pay?

About  $6 - $8 US

( based on my being able to get them made in runs as low as 10 for about
$3-$4 US, so if you're  doing higher volume runs you should be able to get
them cheaper )

>What types of patches would you like to see us do?

I want the "First In" oval patch in Bilandin. :-)

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:26:29 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: ANZAC Tribute...

>As I shan't be here for the weekend of the 25th, I hope no-one minds this
>off-topic tribute to fellow Aussies and our Kiwi friends across the
>Tasman...

Thanks, mate.

 I'll be getting up in about four hours to prepare for the dawn service with
some of my sons who are in the Scouts.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:27:49 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>How about a scenario where a bunch of high school students discover
>that the principal is actually an alien agent there to brianwash the
>kids? 

Nah, too realistic. 
And besides, that'd let the principal know you're on to him.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:23:51 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: 12mm Libertad rifle

Awhile back there was a discussion about what a force armed with low tech
weapons could do to a high tech opponent. Using my T4 Gunsmith
spreadsheet, I've whipped up one possible solution.

Name: 12mm ENL Libertad Revolver Rifle
Calibre: 12 x 59mm						
ROF: Single Shot						
TL: 3
Damage: 4
Mag: 6
Rcl-SS: 2
Rcl-Burst: N/A
Range: Medium
Mass: 4.5 Kg
Reloads: 0.2 Kg
Length: 127.96 cm						
Cost: Cr 596
Laser Sight: No
Sound Report: Normal
Flash: Normal
Grenade Adaptor: No
Bayonet: Yes
Bipod: No
Tripod: No

The Libertad is a unique weapon. It is produced in a variety of small
workshops on Jakob for the Ladian National Army (Ejercito Nacional de Ladia
or ENL) and is the closest this organisation comes to having a standard issue
weapon. Given the circumstances of it's manufacture, most examples show a
suprising degree of craftmanship and reliablity. The weapon itself is a
rather unusual design. Instead of using a convential magazine, it utilises
the same principle as handgun revolvers. The Libertad is a single action
revolver with a six chambered cylinder and a conventional wooden stock. The
Libertad normally uses a preloaded paper cartridge containing both the
conical lead bullet and blackpowder charge, but it can also be loaded with
loose powder if neccessary. The cylinder can be removed and replaced with a
preloaded one in a matter of seconds and most users will carry several such
cylinders. If neccessary, it takes a trained user about 2 to 4 seconds to
reload an individual chamber under combat conditions. Despite the
circumstances of its production, the Libertad has found a ready market with
collectors off Jakob and several companies now produce copies under licence
from the ENL (the ENL uses the licence fees to purchase more advanced
weapons to be smuggled on to Jakob).


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:48:10 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 

Gentlemen, 

You both responded to my plea for attention earlier so if you do not mind I 
though I would use your inquiry as a platform for launching yet another 
attempt to attract players. :) 

Would either of you be interested in playing the Sworld Worlders in GURPS 
Traveller pbem campaign set in the period featured in the alternate GURPS 
timeline where the Emperor is not assassinated rather than the T4 game? My 
story concept is focused on the feeling of the Sword Worlders that they need 
to expand toward unexplored space (spinward of the Marches) or be totally 
swallowed by the Third Imperium. I am cultivating a play environment where 
the Imperium is limited in what it can do militarily in the Sword Worlds 
region by the expansion of Aslan Hatei into District 268 and the Darrian 
Subsector. The campaign would be ripe for all sorts of military, economic, 
and political play. But I have honestly failed to get commentment from any of 
the online players to play. My two candidates for the Sword Worlds have not 
shown any interest since the initial contacts. 

One of the reasons I am pushing the use of GURPS TRAVELLER (GT) for this 
project is the awesome shareware support coming from Steve Jackson Games. 
There is a young man who is generating nice shareware for the system. He has 
created a character creator, starship builder, and astrogation (in the 
Traveller format) that will certainly enhance this campaign if I can get it 
organized. If I can get a cadre of committed quality players, with the use of 
this software I can provide a very enjoyable game. 

My concept of play is based on over 10 years of pbm experience. I am not 
trying to create a play situation of real-time interaction between the 
players and referee as found in "sims" or AOL chat rooms. Rather I am trying 
to create a near "wargaming" experience as discussed in T4's Pocket Empires, 
but using characters rather than militiary pieces! 

Play is done through the use of characters created my the players placed in 
strategic locations in the play environment. The characters then act as 
conduits of information fed to the player by the referee. The nature and 
accurracy of the information is based on the characters' profile and 
attributes. Then the player acts through those characters as agents to 
influence the play environment.  

A friend of mine and I have used this format many times successfully playing 
Star Trek pbems over many years. For example, say a player controls a 
starship captain...it therefore follows that the referee will award that 
"character" a starship to use in the campaign. The referee then provides the 
player information based on the location and declared activities of the 
captain character. Say the player has placed the captain in his ship in orbit 
over a strategic planet. The player then receives information on the current 
situation of that planet based on the capabilities of the captain's ship. The 
player then acts on that information. Let's assume the player wants to 
establish a presence on the planet. So he orders his ship to land and to 
contact the native government or apparent power in charge. The referee then 
makes an assessment of the captain character's attributes and skills related 
to this task, and then considers any other aspects of the ship or crew that 
would modify the task in the favor of the character. Then based on these 
factors, determines the success or failure of the task and reports the 
results of the task attempt to the player. The player then uses this 
information to either ask further questions about that situation, deverts 
other resources from his network of characters, or abandons that task in 
favor of another. Combat (this is Traveller after all!) will be handled using 
existing campaign rules from the Gurps Compendium 2, and the new Gurps 
Traveller books coming out (specifically  
<A HREF="http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/">GURPS Traveller</A> 
StarMercs). 

The reason at this point I would prefer using the 1120 milieu rather than the 
Milieu 0 is because of the online support offered  
<A HREF="http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/">CORE</A> ,  
<A HREF="http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/links.html">GURPS Traveller: 
Links
</A>  <A HREF="http://www.bits.org.uk/">BITS (British Isles Traveller 
Support) Homepages
</A>. There is literally nothing for the T4 system on line unfortunately. And 
if the 1120 milieu does not pan out, I would love to do the T4 game setting 
but it will require tons more work on my part.  

So if you gentlemen would consider playing in the milieu 1120 era I would 
greatly appreciate it. 

Final tidbit:  <A HREF="http://209.39.36.25/gurps/">The FELIX GURPS Page</A> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #497
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 498



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 
[OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: RPG Paranoia
TNEC Spoiler (Was Re: Celtic Matriarchy)
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: A-10 versus MBT? 
Re: RPG Paranoia
Sworld Worlders or Darrians Needed! PBeM message
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
Re: GT: Trojan Reaches
Re: Passenger Ticket Prices
CT for $200, please!
Re: Patches
RE: Patches
Re: ANZAC Tribute...
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)
RE: RPG Paranoia
Re: Economics of Drop Tanks
RE: RPG Paranoia
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:23:11 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited) 

From:           	SciFiFan56@aol.com
Date sent:      	Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:48:10 EDT

>The reason at this point I would prefer using the 1120 milieu rather than the 
>Milieu 0 is because of the online support offered  
>There is literally nothing for the T4 system on line unfortunately. And 
>if the 1120 milieu does not pan out, I would love to do the T4 game setting 
>but it will require tons more work on my part.

Try Micheal Bailey's Unbroken Pride (Solomani Rim in M:0). Point your
browser at:

  http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/UP/frameset.htm


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:21:50 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

>It hits home and I DON'T like 
>it. It's only a small stretch for these people to extend this to the
computer 
>wargame Doom, and from there to all wargames, like Traveller.

I am a military professional: I have more than 17 years experience in the
US Army at all levels from Infantry private to Chief of Plans, US
Forces-Haiti, including two command tours (one in combat). I make it a
point to study the effect of combat on soldiers as part of my professional
military reading.

One inescapable conclusion is that it is very difficult to get most (98%)
people to kill their fellow man, even when they or their loved ones are
directly threatened. Random, "suppressive" fire is much more common, as is
"shooting to wound". Getting them to kill on command, when there may not be
any threat present, is even more difficult and requires weeks of careful
indoctrination in a new recruit. 

The process (suggested by S.L.A. Marshall in his _Men_Against_Fire_, and
inplemented in all major armies since WWII) involves operant conditioning:
targets on a rifle range are presented in random order, at random ranges,
for a few seconds each. The object is to shoot the target while it is up; a
hit results in the target falling. Success at the range results in rewards
- -- marksmanship badges, praise, passes -- while failure results in
retraining and heavy social pressure. This is an extremely powerful and
successful technique. Soldiers who have been trained in this system report
that killing enemy soldiers in combat becomes "just like the range": a
target appears, they shoot, the target disappears.

One author (Grossman?, _On_Killing_ -- I've lent my copy out) points out in
detail the similarities between first-person shooter video games (like
Doom) and the conditioning of soldiers. Targets appear at random, are shot
with a variety of weapons, and disappear in a shower of blood and gore (one
up on the rifle range!) -- over and over and over. Rewards are present in
the form of score-keeping and access to greater levels of difficulty;
failure results in "death". He suggests that we are, in some sense,
conditioning our children to kill.

I do not know whether the individuals who carried out the attack in
Littleton were avid Doom players, or whether they fell into the 2% of the
population that does not need indoctrination in order to kill (these are
not all bad, by any means -- many police officers and highly regarded
soldiers also fall into this group). But I submit that we should be very
careful as a group how we present ourselves, and consider carefully whether
we want pencil-and-paper roleplaying games associated with first-person
shooter video games in the public eye.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:25:54 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>>I'm just wondering what they consider "Goth" clothing. All black clothing,
>>or just certain things? As someone who can be frequently found wearing all
>>or mostly black...
>
>At the moment, it's simply black clothing. After all, *good* people don't
>wear black clothes... unless it's a tasteful black evening dress or tuxedo
>(each on the appropriate sex of course).

So the ban is on black clothing of any kind, then? Wow. I have neither a 
tuxedo nor a tasteful black evening dress. But a very large percentage of 
my clothing is black. For example, the only pants that I have that aren't 
black are blue jeans, which I can't wear at work (except on Fridays)... 
It was more or less the same when I was at school, to the point that when
I once showed up in a very colourful sweater (blues and reds and yellows),
I created a bit of a sensation. ("Hey, look! Glenn's wearing *colour*!")

I wear black (and grey) because I have no sense of fashion when it comes
to colour combination -- I would see nothing wrong with brown pants and
a blue shirt, for example. (Besides, grey is a good colour for me.) But
I have to wonder, in school I knew someone who wore black every day for
religious reasons (one of the conservative Christian sects related to 
the Amish and Mennonites). How would your school handle that? :)

>>I don't like it either, but after a period of time it will pass. I've been
>>gaming since my first year of university, 20 years ago, and I've seen anti-
>>game hysteria come and go before. Those who believe the hysteria generally
>>can't be swayed by reason. Their minds are already made up, and the events
>>just fit their facts. But eventually, their attention will divert to
>>something else.
>
>It must really be dependent on your location. Besides, what people
>*remember* and the hardcore anti-gamers are two different things. The
>hardcore anti-gamers are almost always religious zealots who miss the point
>all across the board. 

Yes, but there are few enough of them that they can ususally be ignored.

>The people who half-remember the news reports and the
>nasty rumors are usually just normal people. You happen across them when you
>least expect to.
>
>It will *pass* from public scrutiny, but (from my own experience) it will
>not pass from public memory. Your own mileage may vary, of course.

Of course. But it will be pushed back into the back of public memory. There
was a similar feeding frenzy in the media many years ago when D&D was linked
to a suicide. (You may remember the incident, June 1992, Irving Lee Pulling.
His mother, the late Pat Pulling, made a career of anti-gaming hysteria.)
At the time, I was a university student and regular AD&D player... The
Littleton incident will be remembered, but the link between the killers and
gaming will fade over time.

 
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:06:37 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: TNEC Spoiler (Was Re: Celtic Matriarchy)

At 04:44 PM 21/04/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Gregory Wall wrote:
>
>> For example, the US military allows it (there is a web site
>> somewhere) as a recognised religion,
><snip>
>
>Check:
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3541/chaplain_wicca.html
>
>ObTrav: Anyone evr use Wicans/Witches in their Traveller games? It'd be a
>way cool planetary society to cook up for the players to visit a wiccan
>dominated society, perhaps decended from wiccan colonists fleeing from the
>society that so misunderstands their beliefs.

        Hi, Brannon!  

        *WARNING* If you play in my TNEC PBEM, you might want to skip this
message....

        Yes, in fact the area to the "north" of the Terran Sphere in my TNEC
milieu is actually "owned" by a Wiccan-like group who fled Terra during the
Coalition War.  The left as a result of what was essentially religious
persecution.  In the confusion of the CW, the ships they stole and thier
destination were completely forgotten, so the Terrans have no idea that
thier nearest neighbours are, well, Terrans.  The Coven are *very* aware of
where Terra is, however, and are more than just a little suspect of it given
the reasons they left.

        Having spoken to a few a Wiccans who are good friends of mine, I
decided to arbitrarily make the Coven psionic...  They haven't figured out
teleportation yet, but TK, empathy, etc.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:59:53 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>>How about a scenario where a bunch of high school students discover
>>that the principal is actually an alien agent there to brianwash the
>>kids?

"The Faculty" they made a movie about that recently.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett


>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:16:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A-10 versus MBT? 

At 02:36 AM 4/24/99 EDT, you wrote:

>> front armor.  Also, the size differential isn't as large as it seems.  The
>> 120mm actually fires a sub-calibre penetrator- actual diameter classified,
>
>LOL.  I doubt it's classified.  Any ol ammo tech type would be able to tell 
>u.  I've never measured one, but it's probably bout 3 or 4 inches thick.  

The penetrator on the German/US 120mm APFSDSDU round in 40mm across.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:23:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 03:21 AM 4/24/99 -0400, you wrote:

>At the moment, it's simply black clothing. After all, *good* people don't
>wear black clothes...

This must be news to the thousands of Roman Catholic Priests and other
ministers in the world...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:37:15 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Sworld Worlders or Darrians Needed! PBeM message

Needed! Experience Traveller player who is familiar with the new GURPS 
Traveller game or GURPS in general. Seeking a military minded gamer to 
control the Sword Worlds or Darrian confederation in a "Pocket Empires" style 
campaign. (No mathematicians or economists please). Play will center on the 
use of player generated or maintained characters used in a network to gather 
information and then influence the game environment. 

I would like to have a military-political flavor in this campaign so if your 
wargaming experienced please apply. Fans of the GDW Fifth Frontier War or 
Invasion Earth might like this campaign. 

If this current milieu setting continues to not attract interest I am 
considering shifting from the Entropic Worlds/1120 setting to a T4-Pocket 
Empires one. 

I am also interested in comments as to why my attempts to recruit players are 
not working. 

Thanks for reading this email. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:02:30 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

>Very true. Unfortunately none of the people in the debate, whichever side
>of the argument they favor, are able to come up with a reason why it
>shouldn't be possible to design drop tanks to be reusable. So we generally
>interpret the comment that drop tanks are one use to mean that since the
>ship can't carry them along with them, they are one use _for the ship_,
>but can be reused back in the original system.

Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and pumping
LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang outside the jump
field? In this case the explosive bolts are only used when the ship
actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into jump space.

IMTU, this means the only way tanks are reusable are if you can wait at the
jump point for each proton in the tank to reappear a week later, one at a
time.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:03:46 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Trojan Reaches

Glenn St-Germain wrote:

>I agree with you -- it would be nice to see new sectors published.
>However, Trojan Reaches is right next door to the Spinward Marches. I'd
>prefer to see a sector in an area of the Imperium that hasn't been heavily
>investigated before. I was thinking of the sectors on the trailing frontier
>of the Imperium -- Delphi, or the Glimmerdrift Reaches.
>
>I'd also like to see the GT version of the Solomani Rim sector, perhaps
>as part of a larger book on the Solomani Confederation.

I can tell you, without a doubt, that you will soon be seeing the Solomani
Rim on GT's publishing schedule. Keep watching their website. I'm sure it
won't be long now.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                    "Keeper of the Flame"
cgriffen@best.com                Traveller player since 1980
http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:13:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Passenger Ticket Prices

On 04/24/99 05:34:50 Matthew Bond wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com <jmaclean@ix.netcom.com>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: 23 April 1999 17:11
>Subject: Passenger Ticket Prices
>
>
>>  Not to mention the fact that Frontier
>>worlds are poorly patrolled and are therefore much more dangerous.
>Simply
>>put, travelling to such worlds is risky and passengers must therefore
>pay a
>>risk premium to the ship captain before he'll agree to make the trip.
>
>
>errr....
>surely Frontiers are *where* you patrol....
>after all, how many Zhodani invasion fleets are going to turn up in
>Massilia.... <g>
>The *risk* may be high, but that is why the patrols are there.

	I didn't say "frontiers," I said "Frontier worlds," in GT there's a 
difference :-) BtC established traffic classifications (Main, Feeder, 
Backwater, Frontier) which I then assigned trade route definitions to in FT.  
They are used to indicate the level of starship traffic in a system.  The 
Frontier classification refers to any world that does not get regularly 
scheduled commercial ship traffic.  I realize this can be confusing, which 
is why I capitalized the word "Frontier" to distiniguish the official GT 
classification from the simple noun.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 22:36:03 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: CT for $200, please!

Greetings!

TravUndernet is proud to present TravJeopardy. Last week's broadcast was
rudely preempted by bad netsplit and poor advertising, so we have
rescheduled for Wednesday, April 28, 1999 at 8pm Central.

Look for the start of an IRC FAQ to be up by the end of the weekend at the
TravUndernet homepage:

http://home.att.net/~websuz/

Suz 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:49:15 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Patches

- -----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>

>SJ Games is looking into makeing some patches...the embroidered kind,
not
>the rubber kind you stick on bicycle tires. Marc thinks Traveller
patches
>are a good idea, and has given his OK, and we'd like to know what
sort of
>subject matter the Traveller audience is interested in.


<snip>
>
>How many of you would be interested in Traveller-related patches?


Count me in

>What would you be willing to pay?

5-10 UKP

>What types of patches would you like to see us do?
>


Any chance of TNE related patches, eg RQS or RCES, for any of us
wierdos that still play on the lunatic fringe of the Traveller
Universe :)

>
>In another matter, the Traveller T-shirts are in the warehouse, and I
got
>mine Tuesday. They look great!
>


Are these available in the UK?

>Loren Wiseman
>     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>     SJ Games
>     LKW@IO.COM
>     (512) 447-7866 VOX
>     (512) 447-1144 FAX


regards from across the pond

Matt

Matthew Bond            mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...to run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:32:27 -0700
From: "Alan R. Chambers" <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: Patches

>How many of you would be interested in
Traveller-related >patches?
a few for me and my group, say 8
>What would you be willing to pay?
As little as possible
>What types of patches would you like to see u do?

Service patches For Navy, Marines, Army and Scouts

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:19:35 EDT
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: ANZAC Tribute...

> As I shan't be here for the weekend of the 25th, I hope no-one minds this
> off-topic tribute to fellow Aussies and our Kiwi friends across the
> Tasman...

No complaints here, and none apparently visible anywhere unlike when someone 
mentions something American.  ;-)  

ob trav.  Solomani attitudes towards the Imperials and Imperium.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 13:15:03 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

On 04/24/99 at 08:25 AM,  cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> said:

>I wear black (and grey) because I have no sense of fashion when it
>comes to colour combination -- I would see nothing wrong with brown
>pants and a blue shirt, for example. 

Huh?  What do you mean by that?  I'm *wearing* a blue shirt with
brown pants right now!  ;-> No, seriously!

Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
circles for a while, but then again it should.


Eris,
    "I'm too sexy for my clothes..."  <now that *is* a joke>

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 14:31:51 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

On 04/24/99 at 08:21 AM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:

>One author (Grossman?, _On_Killing_ -- I've lent my copy out) points
>out in detail the similarities between first-person shooter video
>games (like Doom) and the conditioning of soldiers. Targets appear at
>random, are shot with a variety of weapons, and disappear in a shower
>of blood and gore (one up on the rifle range!) -- over and over and
>over. Rewards are present in the form of score-keeping and access to
>greater levels of difficulty; failure results in "death". He suggests
>that we are, in some sense, conditioning our children to kill.

Until someone does a validated study we are only going to be
conjecturing about this.  Such a study might look at the range
training records of both heavy FPK-game playing soldiers and
soldiers that don't have a history of playing the First Person
Killer games.  Of course, a better (from a scientific pov) study
would compare these group's reactions post actual combat.  But,
let's hope that data doesn't become available anytime soon.

IAC, until such a study indicates differently, I think almost all of
the heavy "Doom" players will have the same difficulty in shooting
to kill as the non-"Doom" players.  I certainly *hope* that's true,
but it worries me.

As you know, several court cases are trying to tie violent
television and film content to the commission of violent crimes.
There certainly is more *graphic* violence in the media now than a
generation ago, and children *are* exposed to many more hours of
this media, but does it change behavior?  

Some people will point out that there was a lot of violence on TV
and movies years ago.  However, almost all that violence was
non-graphic and highly unrealistic.  Tom and Jerry were always
bashing each other, the Coyote regularly was crushed, burned, blown
up and fell hundreds of feet, and on non-cartoon shows cowboys and
detectives killed villains left and right, but all this violence was
patently unrealistic.  Tom, Jerry and Coyote always bounced back
immediately and with no lasting damage.  The villains (good people
and bystanders almost never got hurt seriously) fell down dead with
no blood or other signs of injury, just as unrealistically as the
cartoons.  In the original Psycho, a movie that *really* did horrify
audiences in the early 60's, Hitchcock used music and images that
created fear and horror in his audiences' minds without ever showing
images of the actual attack.  Compare that to a modern shocker like
Scream.

Violence in media today isn't especially realistic, but it *is* more
graphic and much less selective.  Victims are shown burning,
screaming, gasping for breath, blood gushing and spurting, limbs
being ripped off, faces being blown away, and the results aren't
kept off camera, they are shown in gory detail.  Our children are
soaking up thousands of hours of this stuff every year.

But, does the graphic depiction of violence translate to a greater
propensity for violence in the viewer?  Does it contribute to a
desensitization of the viewer toward violence?  

I don't know, I don't think anyone really *knows* the answers to
this.  I can't help worrying that we have conditioned a generation
of people desensitized to violence.  I can't but wonder if all of
this conditioning doesn't have an effect on a rare, and already
disturbed, child here and there. I can't help, but worry...

<snip>

>that we should be very careful as a group how we present ourselves,
>and consider carefully whether we want pencil-and-paper roleplaying
>games associated with first-person shooter video games in the public
>eye.

Damn straight!  

For my part, I *don't* connect the two.  In my games combat/violence
tends to occur rarely, because of its rarity it really does stand
out, but has never been the primary focus.  The primary focus tends
to be character interaction...not something the FPK games do at
all....exploration and creative/building pursuits.

All, IMO, of course,

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:32:34 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Veteran of the Psychic Wars (was Patches)

>I would like to see a "Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars" patch
>
>Along the lines of  "Psychic Wars Veteran" with the roman numeral 
>1000 under it with a fist squeezing a Psi symbol layed over a 
>starfield.  Always wanted one.
>
>BTW ... for those of you who don't know, this phrase came off the 
>Heavy Metal soundtrack.  I have no clue who wrote or sang the song.

 "Veteran of the Psychic Wars"
 Performed by Blue Oyster Cult
 Written by Michael Moorcock and BOC

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:47:44 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

On Saturday, 24 April 1999 13:15, Eris Reddoch [SMTP:eris@pcola.gulf.net]
wrote:

> 
> Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
> black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
> entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
> circles for a while, but then again it should.

Actually, the Denver school district *has* banned trenchcoats.

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 14:49:40 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Economics of Drop Tanks

On 04/24/99 at 09:02 AM,  Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> said:

>Didn't someone propose that drop tanks are still connected, and
>pumping LHyd, whle the jump bubble is forming and actually hang
>outside the jump field? In this case the explosive bolts are only
>used when the ship actually jumps,and the tanks are discarded into
>jump space.

That's the way I intend to play it.  Drop Tanks get dropped into
Jump Space, outside the bubble, at the moment of jump, and are thus
one time use only.  This makes them too expensive for routine
commercial use, but still available for specialty applications.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 15:16:46 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

On 04/24/99 at 02:47 PM,  "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com> said:

>> Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
>> black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
>> entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
>> circles for a while, but then again it should.

>Actually, the Denver school district *has* banned trenchcoats.

I meant, generally, Danny.  

Now, if you want an old foggy opinion...  School children should be
wearing school uniforms, there should be hair length and style
restrictions, and serious restrictions placed on cosmetics, jewlery
and other accesseries.  School is the student's *job* and they
should be conducting themselves like they will be expected to once
they get into working world where promptness, politeness, and work
(both individual and team) is the expected norm.

Eris,
    who is channeling his Dad at the moment. ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 16:24:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 10:31 AM
Subject: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]


[Much in the way of a well reasoned reply snipped]

>I do not know whether the individuals who carried out the attack in
>Littleton were avid Doom players, or whether they fell into the 2% of the
>population that does not need indoctrination in order to kill (these are
>not all bad, by any means -- many police officers and highly regarded
>soldiers also fall into this group). But I submit that we should be very
>careful as a group how we present ourselves, and consider carefully whether
>we want pencil-and-paper roleplaying games associated with first-person
>shooter video games in the public eye.


If the media embraces the roleplaying angle, then they will be associated
with first-person shooting games in the public eye. The fact remains that
there are many people who play tabletop roleplaying games who also play
first-person shooters. I can name at least half a dozen that I know
personally, and that's statistically significant in my roleplaying group.

The whole *attitude* of finger pointing is one that is disgusting. So far,
I've heard that a general trend towards violence in the media is the reason
for the killings. I've heard specifically that movies are responsible (after
all, who can forget the scene in "Basketball Diaries" where Leonardo
DiCaprio strides into a classroom with a shotgun and trenchcoat, blasting
his teacher and classmates). One movie that seems a frequent target is
Oliver Stone's "Natural Born Killers," which is strange because the movie is
extremely critical of the media's cavalier and casual attitude towards
violence. I've heard that music is at fault. Fingers point in kneejerk
fashion at bands like KMFDM, Rammstein and Marilyn Manson. MSNBC at one
point asked how these kids were allowed to pursue an interest in World War
II history with throwing up a red flag for their parents and teachers! I kid
you not. I'm not tainting this with my own spin. My jaw actually dropped.
Others say guns are at fault, because after all, if they only had access to
hatchets and knives, they would not have been able to kill so many people.
Still others will call the internet into question. No one can deny that bomb
recipes exist on the world wide web. Should the tabletop roleplayers of the
world distance themselves from the internet? Should we disband the TML?

Every school shooter that has ripped apart communities across this country
hasn't played tabletop RPGs. All of them did not play Doom or Quake. Not all
of them dressed in black trenchcoats. They don't seem to share the same
taste in music or film. Not all of them are avid World War II buffs. What is
the common denominator here? In case after case, we hear *from other
students* that these children were teased and ostracized by their classmates
for a variety of reasons.

That alone does not indicate a cause-effect relationship, I agree. However,
it's a start, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the only *real* common
denominator in these high-school shootings. I've seen too much finger
pointing and distancing already as a result of tragedy. Decide for yourself.
Does the buck stop here and now, or do we keep passing it around, smiling
uneasily all the while, hoping that our "special" hobby doesn't come under
heavy fire again? Or do we distance ourselves from the first person-shooter
genre of video games and *by association* the people involved?

Think about it. I've seen a number of people on this list talk about their
interest in the popular Macintosh FPS Marathon. I've heard folks mention
that they play Half-Life and Quake II.

Turn the situation around for a moment. Roleplaying is a powerful tool for
indoctrination. Church groups use it. Schools use it. Cults use it. Fast
food restaurants use it. Although I'm unaware of any books written on the
subject, it's true. It was the connection with the  sort roleplaying that
psychologists use that helped to give roleplaying games such a bad name!

So, should we allow this event to fracture us as a group, and foster even
more distrust? Where does it stop? Do we distance ourselves from the hobby
of recreational shooting, which I suspect more than a few gamers indulge in?
C'mon, some shooting competitions involve the exact same kind of thing that
you're talking about.

Where does it end? The WWII history buffs, with their talk of Shermans,
Panzerschrecks and amphibious landings might be next. Maybe fans of music
with fast, hard beats could be next...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #498
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 499



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: RPG Paranoia
Re: Patches
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498
Re: Passenger Ticket Prices >
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: [OT] Kids & Violent stimuli
Re: 12mm Libertad rifle
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498
Re: OT: RPG Paranoia
Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited)
Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited)
Rock of Wages-class Planetoid Freighter (GTL10)
Re: RPG Paranoia
Re: OT: DOOM
Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:35:27 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia

On Saturday, 24 April 1999 15:17, Eris Reddoch [SMTP:eris@pcola.gulf.net]
wrote:
> >Actually, the Denver school district *has* banned trenchcoats.
> 
> I meant, generally, Danny.  

I know what you mean - but it is an instance of the desire to 'do something
- - right now!' overriding any attempt at really getting to the actual
problems.  If it didn't involve people getting killed, it would be funny.

> Now, if you want an old foggy opinion...  School children should be
> wearing school uniforms, there should be hair length and style
> restrictions, and serious restrictions placed on cosmetics, jewlery
> and other accesseries.  School is the student's *job* and they
> should be conducting themselves like they will be expected to once
> they get into working world where promptness, politeness, and work
> (both individual and team) is the expected norm.

There is a very deep part of me that agrees with this.

> Eris,
>     who is channeling his Dad at the moment. ;->

Ya sure that's not *my* dad (SFC Marvin D Moody, USArmy, ret) your
channeling?   Oh, yeah, he's still alive. 'Course, I wouldn't put it past
him - a lots of his friends are on the other side of that veil,
unfortunately.  I'm named after one of 'em.


 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:05:09 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Patches

Don't know if it will help, but BITS did a set of patches a while ago and
might either still do them or have patterns available.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:38:54 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

At 04:26 PM 1999 04 24 -0400, you wrote:
>On 04/24/99 at 08:25 AM,  cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> said:
>
>>I wear black (and grey) because I have no sense of fashion when it
>>comes to colour combination -- I would see nothing wrong with brown
>>pants and a blue shirt, for example. 
>
>Huh?  What do you mean by that?  I'm *wearing* a blue shirt with
>brown pants right now!  ;-> No, seriously!
>
>Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
>black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
>entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
>circles for a while, but then again it should.

So you would find me suspicious because I can often be found dressed 
entirely in black? Even if it's just black jeans and a black sweatshirt?
:)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:43:28 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498

>IAC, until such a study indicates differently, I think almost all of
>the heavy "Doom" players will have the same difficulty in shooting
>to kill as the non-"Doom" players.  I certainly *hope* that's true,
>but it worries me.

I dunno. I'm a great fan of the computer game "Grand Theft Auto", which
I've had almost since it became available for the PC. On the other hand,
in real life, I have nearly 20 years of driving experience, without so
much as a single traffic ticket in all that time. 

>As you know, several court cases are trying to tie violent
>television and film content to the commission of violent crimes.

It's been tried before, more than once -- and every time, that defence
gets shot down in flames. As it should be. The media has always been
a convenient scapegoat. Think back to the early days of rock-and-roll
music, over 40 years ago, and how that was going to destroy the minds
of the youth...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:47:14 -0900
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Passenger Ticket Prices >

"Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote

>errr....
>surely Frontiers are *where* you patrol....
>after all, how many Zhodani invasion fleets are going to turn up in
>Massilia.... <g>

It would only take one.... :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 16:56:14 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498


>It's been tried before, more than once -- and every time, that defence
>gets shot down in flames. As it should be. The media has always been
>a convenient scapegoat. Think back to the early days of rock-and-roll
>music, over 40 years ago, and how that was going to destroy the minds
>of the youth...


Heck, you can go back even earlier. Jazz got a bad rap in its heyday.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:12:15 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 24, 1999 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: RPG Paranoia


>Now, if you want an old foggy opinion...  School children should be
>wearing school uniforms, there should be hair length and style
>restrictions, and serious restrictions placed on cosmetics, jewlery
>and other accesseries.

I know that it's amazingly off-topic, but I have a question about this and
I've never gotten the opportunity to ask someone who was in your camp. What
is supposed to be accomplished by a dress code, exactly? I ask this mainly
because *all* of the schools I went to had a strict dress code which seemed
to accomplish absolutely nothing. Is there something I was missing about the
concept?

As far as restrictions on hair length and style... well, I'm biased on that
one as I fought hard for three years against them at my high school.

>School is the student's *job* and they
>should be conducting themselves like they will be expected to once
>they get into working world where promptness, politeness, and work
>(both individual and team) is the expected norm.


I've got some serious problems with this, but they're all *way* off topic
and inflammatory. ;^)

>Eris,
>    who is channeling his Dad at the moment. ;->


Chris
    who's father backed him up strongly during the "great hair wars"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:18:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Kids & Violent stimuli

Eris -- None of my response is directed at you personally. I suspect we
largely agree with one another on this issue. I know I am worried about
it, as I gather you are. I think my opinions are just stronger about it...

On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> As you know, several court cases are trying to tie violent
> television and film content to the commission of violent crimes.
> There certainly is more *graphic* violence in the media now than a
> generation ago, and children *are* exposed to many more hours of
> this media, but does it change behavior?  

Duh. Of course it does. Children learn by watching and imitating. Granted,
they do not see mom and dad shooting people, but if mom and dad watch the
same stuff along with them, and do not seem to think there is anything
wrong with what is presented...

> Violence in media today isn't especially realistic, but it *is* more
> graphic and much less selective.  Victims are shown burning,
> screaming, gasping for breath, blood gushing and spurting, limbs
> being ripped off, faces being blown away, and the results aren't
> kept off camera, they are shown in gory detail.  Our children are
> soaking up thousands of hours of this stuff every year.

Not mine. They watch zero TV at home, and ocassionally get to watch
children's cable shows at their grandma's hhouse (which I still don't
really like). They're perfectly well adjusted and happy kids, and their
lives don't revolve around worshipping the TV every afternoon.

My kids are two 8 year olds (twin girls) and one 4 year old boy.

YMMV.

> But, does the graphic depiction of violence translate to a greater
> propensity for violence in the viewer?  Does it contribute to a
> desensitization of the viewer toward violence?  

Again, duh.

> I don't know, I don't think anyone really *knows* the answers to
> this.

I don't absolutely *know* that a ball will drop to the floor when I
release it, but I can make a good guess based on common sense.

>  I can't help worrying that we have conditioned a generation
> of people desensitized to violence.  I can't but wonder if all of
> this conditioning doesn't have an effect on a rare, and already
> disturbed, child here and there. I can't help, but worry...

I worry that we're getting a much higher percentage of disturbed kids out
of a generation raised on television and videogames instead of parental
attention and real play. I don't think you can point your finger at DOOM
and say "That put him over the edge." It was just the last straw out of
the countless violent stimuli that the kid was exposed to over the course
of his life. You couldn't blame one out of the lot, but as a whole, they
certainly contributed.

Granted, some people are just nuts right out of the gate, and some people
will get cancer even if they never smoke. But you can lower your risk of
both by controling what you are exposed to.
 
> >that we should be very careful as a group how we present ourselves,
> >and consider carefully whether we want pencil-and-paper roleplaying
> >games associated with first-person shooter video games in the public
> >eye.
> 
> Damn straight!  

I have really never enjoyed shooter-games much, and I've been a gamer for
20 years. The two are not linked in my perception.

> For my part, I *don't* connect the two.  In my games combat/violence
> tends to occur rarely, because of its rarity it really does stand
> out, but has never been the primary focus.  The primary focus tends
> to be character interaction...not something the FPK games do at
> all....exploration and creative/building pursuits.

I completely agree. My focus is on character development also.

Now, I'll get down off my soapbox...

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:29:13 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: 12mm Libertad rifle

In a message dated 4/24/99 6:37:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< Name: 12mm ENL Libertad Revolver Rifle
 Calibre: 12 x 59mm						
 ROF: Single Shot	 >>

Congradulations! You re-invented the Colt revolving rifle. Seriously; nice 
design. I like the removable cylinder which the Colt didn't have (unlike 
their pistols...). How do you prevent flashfire (where the ignition sets off 
ALL the cylinders at the same time-ouch! say goodbye to your non firing 
hand)? This was so bad with the Colt that soldiers had to hold the weapon by 
the lowered loading lever....Or does FF+S not allow for this? 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:38:33 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/24/99 12:38:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:

<< .no one is going to ban black pants, nor
 black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.   >>

several school districts in the US (including one high school here in Las 
Vegas where I live) have done JUST THAT. I think it's absurd....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:48:38 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

In a message dated 4/24/99 1:24:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:

<< Now, if you want an old foggy opinion...  School children should be
 wearing school uniforms, there should be hair length and style
 restrictions, and serious restrictions placed on cosmetics, jewlery
 and other accesseries.  School is the student's *job* and they
 should be conducting themselves like they will be expected to once
 they get into working world where promptness, politeness, and work
 (both individual and team) is the expected norm.
  >>

It's a good idea, but it's generally resisted in the US. We tend to be more 
individualistic and like conformity less than Europeans (though my personal 
observation is that we seem to be getting more conservative, and Europe more 
liberal. This, is of course a generalization...). We also have a little thing 
called the Bill of Rights (part of the US Constitution) to gum up the works. 
Children's clothing choices (and forced wearing of uniforms) tends to get 
challenged on 1st Ammedment "freedom of speech" issues...

Ob Trav: If they ban gaming where I teach; I will challenge the 
administration's censorship with 1st. Ammendment violations of free speech 
(or in this case freedom of expression)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:33:44 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

In a message dated 4/24/99 7:40:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, thrash@io.com 
writes:

<< But I submit that we should be very
 careful as a group how we present ourselves, and consider carefully whether
 we want pencil-and-paper roleplaying games associated with first-person
 shooter video games in the public eye. >>

I doesn't matter worth a damn whether we lump Doom and wargaming together; 
the media and hence the public do, and THAT is what I'm ranting about. We 
need GAMA to get some kind of positve PR campaign going...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 16:40:50 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

On 04/24/99 at 02:38 PM,  cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> said:

>>Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
>>black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
>>entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
>>circles for a while, but then again it should.

>So you would find me suspicious because I can often be found dressed 
>entirely in black? Even if it's just black jeans and a black
>sweatshirt? :)

Now, did I say suspicious?  I said "draw a lot of attention."  It
could be good attention.  ;-> OTOH, if *all* you dressed in, all the
time, was black I might have some concerns...it would qualify as a
quirk at the very least.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 99 18:25:17 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #498

On 04/24/99 at 02:43 PM,  cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> said:

>>As you know, several court cases are trying to tie violent
>>television and film content to the commission of violent crimes.

>It's been tried before, more than once -- and every time, that
>defence gets shot down in flames. As it should be. The media has
>always been a convenient scapegoat. Think back to the early days of
>rock-and-roll music, over 40 years ago, and how that was going to
>destroy the minds of the youth...

You really don't see a *qualitative* differences between now and
then?  Compare Bill Haley singing "Rock Around the Clock" or the
bad-boy Rolling Stones to Marilyn Mason...or Nirvana for that
matter.  Compare movies aimed at teens like, the somewhat
controversial for their time, "Rebel Without a Cause" and "Billy
Jack" with "Heathers" or "The Basketball Diaries."  Okay, maybe I'm
getting old, but I can see large qualitative differences in then and
now.  I don't think *any* of the above will "mess up" a well
adjusted teen or adult, but not everyone is well adjusted.

I don't think exposure to graphic simulated violence is a primary
cause (or excuse) for actual violence.  I *do* think constant
exposure to *anything* tends to desensitize you to it.  And If what
you want is to shock and confound your peers, you have to pick
something that *still* shocks them.  What is shocking now days?

Teens are still discovering their identities. They need to know
where they fit, who they are.  They need attention from adults, but
even more from their peers, and they are still developing strategies
to get it.  Some strategies work, some are self destructive, and
others are just plain destructive.

Some teens have it easier than others, they are able to "fit in"
some established respectable group and can get their identity and
attention from that group.  We all know "the jocks", "the pretty
girls", "the brains", "the popular kids" "the band geeks", right?
It doesn't mean they don't feel disaffected, but they have a support
group with reference points to fall back on.

It's been a while since I was fifteen, but I remember it well.  I
was lucky enough to be in a school where I could be "a brain."  We
hung out together discussing science, science fiction, LOTR, playing
chess, and AH wargames when they came out, I predate rpgs or we
would have played them too.  ;) I was also lucky to have gone to a
school small enough for a below average physical specimen like me to
make the football squad, for the brainy valedictorian to be in the
chess club *and* and on the pep squad, for "band geeks" to be in the
Key Club or brains, or play sports, and for football players and
cheerleaders to be in the chorus and drama clubs.  Sure, we had
cliques, but there was a place for most of us and enough
cross-fertilization for the lines to blur allowing us to mix...most
of us.

But I remember a few poor souls that just never seemed to fit in
anywhere.  If the school had been different, larger, more
impersonal, I might have been that way myself.

So, what about the "lost souls?"  

They have to cast around until they can acquire an identity either
individually or in a group.  With all the conventional niches staked
out the more disaffected teens sometimes turn to shock and
confounding conventions in an effort to "be themselves."  They get a
mohawk, smoke in the bathrooms, dress in weird clothes...or in all
black, write graffiti on the walls, espouse an "out of style"
philosophy, shave their heads, play "chicken" or "mumblly peg",
pierce something, join a club, a cult a gang, take drugs, tear holes
in their "perfectly good jeans", shoplift, dabble in the occult,
retreat into fantasy worlds, commit sucide, and listen to "that
awful noise, you can't call *that* music...", and blame their
problems on the "cliques" they can't join.  And if the they are
lucky, or unlucky, they find others just as filled with angst as
them and form their own clique...

Didn't we *all* do some of that, even those of us who will admit to
have been in the "in crowd?"  Aren't we lucky that is all we did,
that we found a way to get through it and come out the other side?

But what if none of that seems to work?  What do you do when nothing
seems to be shocking anymore?  If what is considered conventional
includes everything that once was shocking, when you are pushed
further and further away from the middle, from normalcy, then what
do you do?

Okay, okay, don't mind me, I'm just rambling, but all this does
worry me.  For 30 plus years I've *seen* kids on the margin getting
pushed further and further away from the center as the norm expands.
Once I thought expanding the norm was all to the good, now I'm not
so sure...that worries me too. ;-\

Eris,
    who really does feel like an old coot today
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:11:08 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT: RPG Paranoia

>Strangely enough this is a relatively recent occurrence. The creation of
>peer groups among kids is a result of the American (and other western
>patterned) school systems that lump children together by age.  This practice
>is less than 150 years old. It results in what is in reality a separate
>social system from the adult social groups.

More recent than that, actually. The emphasis on peer groups started during
the 1950s.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:18:58 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited)

>Gentlemen,
>
>You both responded to my plea for attention earlier so if you do not mind I
>though I would use your inquiry as a platform for launching yet another
>attempt to attract players. :)
>
>Would either of you be interested in playing the Sworld Worlders in GURPS
>Traveller pbem campaign set in the period featured in the alternate GURPS
>timeline where the Emperor is not assassinated rather than the T4 game?

Only if you have long delays between moves. I work 60-70 hours a week for
ten months of the year (then go offline while a recharge on the beach), so
I need lots of slack to allow for the Real World.


>One of the reasons I am pushing the use of GURPS TRAVELLER (GT) for this
>project is the awesome shareware support coming from Steve Jackson Games.
>There is a young man who is generating nice shareware for the system. He has
>created a character creator, starship builder, and astrogation (in the
>Traveller format) that will certainly enhance this campaign if I can get it
>organized. If I can get a cadre of committed quality players, with the use of
>this software I can provide a very enjoyable game.

Will that run on a Mac? Otherwise I can't use it. (Unless someone is
willing to donate a computer...)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:08:44 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Strategic GURPS Traveller PBeM Campaign (revisited)

>From:           	SciFiFan56@aol.com
>>There is literally nothing for the T4 system on line unfortunately. And
>>if the 1120 milieu does not pan out, I would love to do the T4 game setting
>>but it will require tons more work on my part.

Actually, there's a complete sourcebook of T4 vehicles: 102 Vehicles.

Go to the BITS website and check the archives.

www.bits.org.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:58:33 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Rock of Wages-class Planetoid Freighter (GTL10)

I designed this using the second draft rules posted to the GURPS Traveller
board by Christopher Thrash.  What do people think?

==============================

Rock of Wages-class Planetoid Freighter (GTL10)
Designed by Robert Prior

This starship was designed using the rules in GURPS Traveller

Ship Description


Crew: 3 bridge crew, 16 engineers


5000-ton PL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Bridge, Engineering, 500 Maneuver, 200
Jump, 1500 Fuel, 10 Staterooms, 10 Utility, 2746.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 5 million miles, Laser 10 million miles
Sensors: PESA 30000 miles, AESA 100000 miles, Radscanner 2000 miles

Statistics: EMass 10431.7 tons, LMass 24164.2 tons, Cost MCr 949.2, HP 165000
Performance: Accel 0.8 G (1.9 G empty, 0.3 G overloaded), Jump 3, Air Speed
0 mph


Design Spreadsheet

Structure	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
5000-ton planetoid hull	(5000.0)	1980.0	0.0	110000.0	0.0
Tunnelling	0.0	0.0	0.5	0.0	0.0
Airtight sealing	0.0	0.0	1.1	0.0	0.0
Armour: DR100, PD4	0.0	3850.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Drive Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Engineering module	1.0	4.1	0.3	0.0	0.0
Jump drive (3 parsecs)	200.0	800.0	620.0	0.0	8.0
Jump tanks	1500.0	1950.0	240.0	0.0	0.0
Maneuver drive (0.8G)	500.0	1700.0	80.0	0.0	8.3
Workspace Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Bridge	2.5	8.6	4.0	0.0	3.0
10 utility modules	10.0	115.0	3.0	0.0	0.0
Hold	2746.5	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0
Accommodation Modules	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
10 staterooms	40.0	24.0	0.1	0.0	0.0
Miscellaneous Items	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Fuel	(1500.0)	0.0	0.5	0.0	0.0
Cargo	(2746.5)	(13732.5)	0.0	0.0	0.0
Totals	Spaces	Mass	Cost	Area	Crew
Fully loaded & fitted out	5000.0	24164.2	949.8	110000.0	19.0
Unloaded with skeleton crew	5000.0	10431.7	949.2	110000.0	19.0


(Designed with GT Shipyard: GURPS Traveller's Starship Design Software.
Copyright Robert Prior, 1998)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:02:59 +0100
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: RPG Paranoia

>Now *really* seriously...no one is going to ban black pants, nor
>black coats, nor black shirts, nor even black trenchcoats.  The
>entire ensemble will probably draw a lot of attention in some
>circles for a while, but then again it should.

A boy in New Brunswick was sent home for refusing to change. He insists
that, as he's been wearing his black trenchcoat for over two years, it has
nothing to do with Littleton and thus he will wear it when attending school.

There's a school in LA that's banned "goth" clothes (however they've
defined them).

Other examples are filtering in over the teacher grapevine...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:30:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: OT: DOOM

On 04/24/99 16:24:37 Chris Seamens wrote:
>
>If the media embraces the roleplaying angle, then they will be associated
>with first-person shooting games in the public eye. The fact remains that
>there are many people who play tabletop roleplaying games who also play
>first-person shooters. I can name at least half a dozen that I know
>personally, and that's statistically significant in my roleplaying group.
>

	I don't know how well known this is, but DOOM was created by Sandy Petersen, a former rpg 
designer who wrote "Call of Cthulhu" and much "RuneQuest" material for Chaosium in the 1980s.  
I've communicated with him online in the past, though not for several years, and as far as I 
know 
he's a really great, thoughtful, and intelligent guy.  The point of this is that any attempt to 
distance the "rpg community" from the "DOOM community" is compromised at the very heart, even 
without the 'statistically significant' overlap.

Trent
(who several years ago made a decision to eliminate as much violence as possible from his games, 
but has found his ideal constantly stymied by his bloodthirsty player group: "enough talk, let's 
pop open a can of whup-ass on these guys!")

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:06:30 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Doom (was Re: RPG Paranoia) [long]

There is an element of truth to this that is important to remember; at least
as long as most of us remember the physical, emotional, and other abuse that
was suffered during the the 7 years of hell referred to as secondary
education. And as long as we remember the vengeance fantasies that I - and I
am willing to bet more that a few of you - held very deeply hidden in the
most secret places of our hearts and minds.

How many of us retreated into these games _because_ they were far safer,
physically and mentally,  than the "reality" that we dealt with daily?

Perhaps it was more because I grew up in northern Wisconsin where the idea
of responsible gun ownership hadn't been gutted by the NRA's insistence that
every home have an assault rifle, but the simple fact is that no matter how
badly I might have wanted to do something similar, I couldn't have.

The other thing to remember is that this is not confined to public schools.
Back in 1981, the local parochial high school was pipe bombed by a
disaffected student. But you won;t hear most of the "talking heads" mention
cases like that because they don't fit their narrow right/left dichotomy

(I managed to survive and graduated in '82 and joined the Army. Ended up
spending 16 in with my reserve time counted till my knees and back gave up
and only joined originally because I expected Ronnie to start WWIII and
wanted to be able to shoot back - which is what the M-60A3 MBT was very good
at... (should say all I need to about _my_ politics...:')   )

This is an incredibly OT thread and yet we keep going despite ourselves. May
I respectfully submit that we still need to express our own "damage done" in
a safe environment? I hope we can continue to do so.

One last comment - consider "Clif" in the light of all of this...


(Snip)
>
> Every school shooter that has ripped apart communities across this country
> hasn't played tabletop RPGs. All of them did not play Doom or Quake. Not all
> of them dressed in black trenchcoats. They don't seem to share the same
> taste in music or film. Not all of them are avid World War II buffs. What is
> the common denominator here? In case after case, we hear *from other
> students* that these children were teased and ostracized by their classmates
> for a variety of reasons.
>
> That alone does not indicate a cause-effect relationship, I agree. However,
> it's a start, and to the best of my knowledge, it's the only *real* common
> denominator in these high-school shootings. I've seen too much finger
> pointing and distancing already as a result of tragedy. Decide for yourself.
> Does the buck stop here and now, or do we keep passing it around, smiling
> uneasily all the while, hoping that our "special" hobby doesn't come under
> heavy fire again? Or do we distance ourselves from the first person-shooter
> genre of video games and *by association* the people involved?

William

- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #499
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